谁有权决定总统何时起诉自己的政府？

在他成年后的职业生涯中，总统唐纳德·特朗普及其公司卷入了数千起诉讼。

Over the course of his adult life, president Donald Trump and his companies have been involved in thousands of lawsuits.

你甚至可以说他是个喜欢打官司的人。

You might even call him litigious.

我认为我们这个案子不仅会非常有趣，而且一定会赢。

I think we have a case that's going to be not only very interesting, but a case that we're going to win.

他们建立自身的方式以及所采用的做法，将在本案中被强烈地揭露出来。

The way that they've established themselves, the practices that they've used are gonna be brought out very strongly in the case.

这是特朗普在1984年对ABC《早安美国》节目所说的话。

That's Trump speaking to ABC's Good Morning America back in 1984.

当时，他拥有新泽西将军队，一支属于美国足球联盟（USFL）的球队。

At the time, he owned the New Jersey generals, a team in the USFL, the US football league.

特朗普带领其他老板对竞争对手国家橄榄球联盟（NFL）提起反垄断诉讼。

Trump led fellow owners in filing an antitrust suit against the rival National Football League.

这种诉诸法庭的行为模式，已经持续了至少五十年。

That pattern of behavior turning to the courts has been playing out for at least five decades.

早在1973年，特朗普就对美国司法部提起反诉，指控其诽谤并索赔一亿美元。

Back in 1973, Trump countersued the US Department of Justice for defamation and a $100,000,000.

这发生在特朗普及其父亲和他们的公司被指控违反《公平住房法案》存在种族歧视之后。

That came after Trump, his father, and their company were accused of racial discrimination under the Fair Housing Act.

特朗普的诉讼被驳回，几年后，司法部与特朗普、他的父亲及其公司达成了和解。

Trump's suit was dismissed, and the justice department settled with Trump, his father, and his company a couple of years later.

从这位房地产大亨成为候选人、总统、前总统，再到再次当选总统，这些诉讼和反诉一直持续不断。

The suits and the counter suits continued steadily all the way from when the real estate magnate became a candidate, the president, the former president, and once again president.

唐纳德·特朗普花大量时间与律师打交道。

Donald Trump spends a lot of time with lawyers.

她说我做了些根本没发生过的事。

She said that I did something to her that never took place.

根本什么都没有。

There was no anything.

我对这个疯子一无所知。

I know nothing about this nut job.

这是特朗普总统在2022年作证时的证词。

That's from a deposition president Trump gave back in 2022.

作家尤金·卡罗尔成功起诉特朗普诽谤和性侵。

The writer, Eugene Carroll, successfully sued Trump for defamation and sexual assault.

特朗普后来提起反诉，称卡罗尔诽谤了他。

Trump later filed a countersuit saying Carroll defamed him.

总统还起诉了CNN、ABC、CBS、《华尔街日报》、《纽约时报》，以及最近的BBC。

The president has also sued CNN, ABC, CBS, The Wall Street Journal, The New York Times, and most recently, the BBC.

这是特朗普总统在11月的发言。

Here's president Trump in November.

我们会起诉他们。

Well, we'll sue them.

我们会向他们索赔十亿到五百亿美元之间的金额。

We'll sue them for anywhere between a billion and $5,000,000,000.

指控这家英国广播巨头在剪辑特朗普1月6日演讲时构成诽谤。

Accusing the British broadcasting giant of defamation for the way it edited Trump's January 6 speech.

该网络公司已道歉，但表示不会支付赔偿金。

The network apologized but said it will not be paying damages.

现在，特朗普总统正在起诉自己的政府。

Now president Trump is suing his own administration.

这是他在北卡罗来纳州发表演讲的场景。

Here he is giving a speech in North Carolina.

你知道，我提起了一起诉讼，而且我正在赢这场官司。

You know, I brought a lawsuit, and I'm winning the lawsuit.

只有一个问题。

There's only one problem.

我才是那个必须达成和解的人。

I'm the one that has to settle it.

换句话说，我正在起诉，但又得由我来达成和解。

In other words, I am suing, and I'm the one that's supposed to settle it.

所以，也许我会给自己判十亿美元，然后全部捐给慈善机构。

So maybe I'll give myself $1,000,000,000 and give it all to charity.

这说得通吗？

Does that make sense?

你知道的，我会把这笔钱捐给慈善机构。

You know, I'll give it to charity.

你有什么好的慈善机构推荐吗？

Do you have any nice charities?

想想这个。

Consider this.

唐纳德·特朗普总统一直依赖法院。

President Donald Trump has always turned to the courts.

现在他开始针对自己的财政部和司法部了。

Now he is turning on his own treasury and justice departments.

那么，同时站在这些法律主张的双方意味着什么？

So what does it mean to be on both sides of these legal claims?

接下来，看看总统如何试图论证他的政府欠他数十亿美元。

Coming up, how the president is trying to make the case that his own government owes him billions.

来自NPR，我是斯科特·德特鲁。

From NPR, I'm Scott Detreau.

我是艾拉·格拉斯。

This is Ira Glass.

《美国生活》致力于寻找那些令人惊讶、你 elsewhere 听不到的故事。

This American Life, we look for stories that are surprising, that you won't hear anywhere else.

比如，这位去过月球的宇航员。

Like, for example, this one astronaut who went to the moon.

你知道他不感兴趣的是什么吗？

You know what he's not into?

太空。

Space.

在失重状态下漂浮感觉怎么样？

Was it cool to float around weightless?

不。

No.

不。

No.

不。

No.

这是美国生活。

This is American Life.

无论你在哪儿听播客，都能听到出人意料的故事。

Unexpected stories wherever you get your podcasts.

你生活中有没有一个熟人，你希望能和他成为真正的朋友？

Is there an acquaintance in your life that you'd love to turn into an actual friend?

你有没有想过说：嘿。

And have you thought about saying, hey.

我们该

We should

一起出去玩一次。

hang out sometime.

也许再想想。

Maybe think again.

你越具体，你们真正聚在一起的可能性就越大。

The more specific you are, the more likely it is that you're actually gonna get together.

拿出你的日历，选个时间，定个一起做的事，然后真正去执行。

You know, pull out your calendar, pick a time, pick a thing to do together, and actually follow through.

在NPR应用中或你收听播客的任何平台收听《Life Kit》播客。

Listen to the Life Kit podcast in the NPR app or wherever you get your podcasts.

这是来自NPR的《Consider This》。

It's consider this from NPR.

在特朗普推动行政权力边界的所有方式中，有一种特别引起律师和监督机构的关注。

Of all the ways president Trump has pushed the bounds of executive power, one stands out to lawyers and watchdogs.

特朗普希望他领导的政府向他支付数十亿美元。

Trump wants the government that he leads to pay him billions of dollars.

特朗普提出了多项主张，称自己因司法部的调查和多年前其纳税申报表的泄露而遭受损失。

Trump has filed multiple claims arguing that he has been hurt by justice department investigations and the leak of his tax returns years ago.

NPR的凯莉·约翰逊和塔玛拉·基思报道。

NPR's Kerry Johnson and Tamara Keith report.

特朗普总统正在北卡罗来纳州发表关于经济的演讲，即将结束时，他突然开始谈论2022年联邦调查局对他在佛罗里达州度假胜地的搜查。

President Trump was in North Carolina nearing the end of a speech about the economy when out of nowhere, he started talking about the FBI search of his Florida resort in 2022.

他们让那些动物试图在马阿拉歌攻击我。

They had these animals trying to attack me at Mar A Lago.

他们闯进了我妻子的衣橱。

They went into my wife's closet.

特工们正在寻找机密文件。

Agents were on the hunt for classified documents.

联邦调查局发现了来自浴室、舞厅和办公室的文件。

The FBI sees papers from a bathroom, a ballroom, and an office.

特朗普认为这是一次侵犯，一次攻击，是政府对他进行政治迫害。

Trump viewed it as a violation, an attack, the weaponization of the government against him.

因此，他向司法部提出索赔，要求2.3亿美元的赔偿。

So he filed a claim with the justice department seeking $230,000,000 in damages.

而且他们确实说，你知道，从来没有过这样的案子。

And they do say that, you know, it's never been a case like this.

唐纳德·特朗普起诉美利坚合众国。

Donald Trump sues The United States Of America.

唐纳德·特朗普当上了总统，现在唐纳德·特朗普得解决这场诉讼。

Donald Trump becomes president, and now Donald Trump has to settle the suit.

特朗普在提出索赔时已经卸任，但他赢得了2024年大选。

Trump was out of office when the claim was first filed, but then he won the twenty twenty four election.

针对他的指控被撤销，现在特朗普身处这场纠纷的双方。

The charges against him were dropped, and now Trump finds himself on both sides of the dispute.

但这难道不是一种奇怪的处境吗？

But isn't that a strange position to be in?

我得想办法，我得谈个协议。

I've gotta make I've gotta make a deal.

我和自己谈判。

I negotiate with myself.

司法部有一套流程，用于处理那些声称受到联邦政府伤害的人。

There's a process in place at the justice department for people who say they've been harmed by the federal government.

在正常情况下，这些索赔由职业律师进行评估。

In the normal course of business, those claims get evaluated by career lawyers.

它们很少涉及像特朗普这样的高知名度刑事案件。

They rarely involve high profile criminal investigations like Trump's.

鲁帕·帕塔恰里亚曾在该司法部办公室工作多年。

Rupa Patacharya worked in that DOJ office for years.

其中一些是普通的案件。

Some of them are run of the mill.

对吧？

Right?

邮政车辆卷入交通事故。

Postal vehicles get into traffic accidents.

退伍军人事务部的医生面临医疗过失索赔。

VA doctors have malpractice claims brought against them.

人们在联邦大楼里滑倒摔伤。

People slip and fall in federal buildings.

即使在最严重的案件中，比如涉及9·11袭击的案件，她说美国政府几乎从未支付超过1000万美元的赔偿。

Even in the most serious cases like the ones that involved the attack on nine eleven, she says the US government almost never paid out more than $10,000,000.

特朗普总统想要的金额要多得多，是针对他的司法部调查金额的23倍。

President Trump wants a lot more than that, 23 times more for the justice department investigations against him.

这些调查在他重新当选白宫总统后就结束了。

Probes then ended after he won reelection to the White House.

二月份的金额将远远超过司法部在任何联邦侵权索赔法案案件中曾同意的行政和解金额。

February would be by an order of magnitude greater than any administrative settlement the department has ever agreed to in a federal tort claims act case.

通常，司法部会就其职业检察官和联邦调查局特工的工作在法庭上反驳这些索赔。

Typically, the justice department would fight claims in court over the work of its career prosecutors and FBI agents.

而在这一案件中，他们拥有强有力的法律辩护理由。

And in this case, they would have strong legal defenses.

毕竟，一位联邦法官批准了对特朗普马阿拉歌庄园的搜查，并认定存在合理理由。

After all, a federal judge approved the search of Trump's Mar A Lago property, finding probable cause.

鉴于这一索赔涉及的金额巨大，司法部高层人士将作出最终决定。

And given how much money is at stake in this claim, people at the top of the justice department would make the final call.

特朗普同时站在索赔的双方，这存在明显的利益冲突。

There is a glaring conflict of interest in Trump being on both sides of the claim.

那是爱德·惠伦。

That's Ed Whalen.

他曾是司法部的律师，也是一位政治保守派，曾为已故大法官安东宁·斯卡利亚担任书记员。

He's a former lawyer for the justice department and a political conservative who once clerked for the late justice Antonin Scalia.

他和他下属决定政府如何回应这些天价索赔，这简直荒谬至极。

It is completely outrageous that he and those answering to him would be deciding how the government responds to these extravagant claims.

他下属包括司法部长及其首席副手。

Those answering to him include the attorney general and her top deputy.

他们两人曾担任总统特朗普的私人律师。

Both of them used to work as president Trump's personal attorneys.

司法部第三号人物曾代表特朗普的管家，而后者被指是马阿拉歌案件的共谋者。

The third in command of justice represented Trump's valet, an alleged coconspirator in the Mar a Lago case.

再说一遍，埃德·韦兰。

Again, Ed Whelan.

许多人担心，司法部会直接屈服，去询问唐纳德·特朗普本人，他的政府应该向他注入多少钱。

The fear that many have is that the department of justice will simply fold and ask Donald Trump, the individual, how much money Donald Trump's administration should funnel to him.

在最近接受NBC的汤姆·雅马斯采访时，特朗普并未否认自己将是最终决策者的说法。

In a recent interview with NBC's Tom Yamas, Trump didn't do anything to bat down the suggestion that he would be the final decider.

但你会告诉他去付钱给你吗？

You're gonna tell him to pay you though?

因为你是老板。

Because you're the boss.

嗯，我实际上会告诉他付钱给我，但我会上交全部的

Well, I what I would do, tell him to pay me, but I'll give a 100% of

钱给慈善机构。

the money to charity.

但特朗普不满的不仅仅是那些旧的司法部调查。

But Trump wasn't just upset about those old justice department investigations.

他还有更多账要算。

He had more scores to settle.

并在一月份对联邦政府提起另一项索赔，就2019年IRS承包商泄露其税务记录一事，索赔100亿美元。

And at the January filed another claim against the federal government, a $10,000,000,000 lawsuit over the 2019 leak of his tax returns by an IRS contractor.

税务法律专家表示，这个案件存在严重缺陷。

Experts in tax law say that case has some big flaws.

首先，诉讼时效似乎已经过期。

For one thing, the statute of limitations seems to have expired.

更重要的是，泄露事件发生在特朗普的第一个总统任期内。

What's more, the leak took place during Trump's first term in office.

因此，总统正在就自己执政期间的行为起诉政府。

So the president is suing the government for actions when he was in charge.

近几周，国会民主党人就此事质询了政府高级官员，包括财政部长斯科特·贝森特，他受到了新泽西州参议员安迪·金的质询。

Congressional Democrats pressed top administration officials about this in recent weeks, including treasury secretary Scott Bessent, who was questioned by New Jersey senator Andy Kim.

他甚至说，我竟然要和自己协商达成和解。

He even said, I am supposed to work out a settlement with myself.

这就是特朗普说的。

That's what Trump said.

你觉得这构成利益冲突吗？

Do you think that that is a conflict of interest?

这是司法部的问题。

That that is a justice department issue.

不。

No.

它是在起诉你的部门。

It is suing your department.

司法部代表财政部。

The justice department represents treasury.

我建议你联系司法部。

I would suggest you contact justice.

祝你好运。

Good luck with that.

在另一次听证会上，司法部负责人、总检察长帕姆·邦迪并未提供更多信息。

In a separate hearing, the head of the department of justice, attorney general Pam Bondi, didn't shine any additional light.

我不会讨论尚未决断的诉讼。

I'm not going to discuss pending litigation.

司法部发言人告诉NPR，在任何情况下，司法部的所有官员都会遵循职业道德官员的指导。

A justice department spokesperson told NPR, in any circumstance, all officials at the DOJ follow the guidance of career ethics officials.

因此，如果司法部批准了一项和解协议，这笔钱会从哪里来？

So if DOJ does approve a settlement, where would this money come from?

鲁帕·巴塔查里亚解释说，这被称为判决基金。

Rupa Bhattacharya explains it's something called the judgment fund.

这是一个由纳税人出资的资金池，意味着如果政府被判定承担责任，美国民众将为此买单。

Which is a taxpayer funded pot of money, which means that the American people are on the hook for these claims if liability is assessed against the government.

对特朗普而言，提起诉讼——包括那些毫无根据或胜诉几率极低的诉讼——早已成为他的惯常做法。

For Trump, filing lawsuits, including those that are frivolous or where he has little chance of success, has long been standard operating procedure.

在这些情况下，无论案情如何，他都掌握着全部主动权。

In these cases, regardless of the merits, he holds all the cards.

一位白宫官员告诉NPR，这些诉讼是特朗普未完成的事务。

A White House official tells NPR these suits are unfinished business for Trump.

特朗普私人法律团队的一名发言人发表声明称：‘特朗普总统继续追究那些损害美国和美国人民利益者的责任。’

A spokesman for Trump's private legal team said in a statement, quote, president Trump continues to hold those who wrong America and Americans accountable.

但如果特朗普赢得巨额和解金，那些将为此买单的美国民众和纳税人怎么办？

But what about the American people, taxpayers, who will be stuck holding the bag if Trump wins large settlements?

我最近在空军一号上向总统提出了这个问题。

I asked the president that during a recent flight on Air Force One.

你正在就你的税务问题起诉联邦政府。

You're suing the federal government about your taxes.

是的。

Yeah.

我很好奇，让美国民众为这些诉讼买单公平吗？

I'm wondering, is it fair to ask the American people to pay for that?

嗯，我赢得的任何款项，都会100%捐给慈善机构。

Well, anything I win, I'm gonna give a 100% to charity.

但那仍然从

But that still takes it from the

美国，不行。

American No.

不行。

No.

因为他们本来就会把钱捐给慈善机构。

Because they give money to charity anyway.

我们的政府每年捐出四百亿美元给慈善机构。

They give away $40,000,000,000 a year to charity, our government.

不清楚特朗普这个数字是从哪里来的，白宫也没有回应相关提问以澄清这一点。

It's not clear where Trump got that number from, and the White House didn't respond to questions seeking clarity.

在美国人普遍认为生活成本和收支平衡是首要关切的时刻，总统从他所领导的政府那里获得巨额意外之财的想法，即使承诺捐给慈善机构，也可能让选民难以接受。

At a time when Americans say their top concern is the cost of living and making ends meet, the idea of the president receiving a massive windfall from the government he leads may not sit well with voters, even if it is donated to charity.

塔玛拉·基思和卡莉·约翰逊。

Tamara Keith and Carrie Johnson.

NPR新闻。

NPR News.

本集由埃里卡·莱恩制作，音频工程由达米安·赫林负责。

This episode was produced by Erica Ryan with audio engineering by Damian Herring.

本集由安娜·尤科诺诺夫、丽贝卡·梅茨勒和考特尼·多宁编辑。

It was edited by Anna Yukonanov, Rebecca Metzler, and Courtney Dorning.

我们的执行制片人是萨米·耶尼根。

Our executive producer is Sami Yenigan.

这是来自NPR的《就此而言》。

It's Consider This from NPR.

我是斯科特·德特拉。

I'm Scott Detra.

今年，在NPR的历史播客《穿越》中。

This year on Throughline, NPR's history podcast.

几代人以来，一项美国的追求塑造了世界。

For generations, an American quest has shaped the world.

生命、自由、对幸福的追求。

Life, liberty, the pursuit of happiness.

如今二百五十年过去了，这种追求究竟意味着什么？

Now two hundred fifty years in, what is that pursuit really about?

每周二请收听我们的全新系列节目《美国的追求》，由Throughline制作，可在NPR应用或您收听播客的任何平台收听。

Join us each Tuesday for an essential new series, America in Pursuit, from ThruLine, on the NPR app, or wherever you get podcasts.

乔纳森·海特的著作《焦虑的一代》引发了一场运动，警示青少年及其父母社交媒体的危害。

Jonathan Haidt's book, The Anxious Generation, sparked a movement to warn kids and their parents about the harms of social media.

是的。

Yes.

我的观点是，这将改变大脑的发育方式，使你成年后更缺乏能力、自信、幸福感和社交能力。

My claim is that will change brain development in ways that will make you less capable, confident, happy, and sociable as an adult.

但年轻人是怎么想的？

But what do young people think?

Z世代只会觉得，唉，我们被诅咒了。

Gen z is just gonna think, well, we're cursed.

这在TED广播节目中。

That's on the TED Radio Hour.

请在NPR应用或您收听播客的任何平台收听。

Listen on the NPR app or wherever you get your podcasts.

想在没有广告中断的情况下收听这个播客吗？

Wanna hear this podcast without sponsor breaks?

亚马逊Prime会员可以通过亚马逊音乐免费收听《Consider This》，或者您也可以支持NPR的重要新闻报道，通过访问+.npr.org获取《Consider This Plus》。

Amazon Prime members can listen to consider this sponsor free through Amazon Music, or you can also support NPR's vital journalism and get consider this plus at +.npr.org.

网址是+.npr.org。

That's +.npr.org.