为什么马哈对特朗普生气？

在一年内，卫生部长罗伯特·F·肯尼迪 Jr. 对国家的公共卫生系统进行了重大变革。

In one year, health secretary Robert f Kennedy junior has made dramatic changes to the country's public health system.

他削减了疫苗资金，减少了联邦推荐的儿童疫苗种类，并解雇了卫生与公共服务部数千名员工。

He has cut vaccine funding, reduced the number of federally recommended childhood vaccines, and laid off thousands of employees at the Department of Health and Human Services.

这一切都是他‘让美国再次健康’使命的一部分。

It's all part of his make America healthy again mission.

我为特朗普总统任命我担任这一信任职位，以推进他‘让美国再次健康’的议程而感到自豪。

I'm proud that president Trump has appointed me to the position of trust to carry out his agenda to make America healthy again.

这是特朗普总统和我共同的使命，它激发了美国人民前所未有的热情与支持。

This is the mission that president Trump and I hold in common, and that has inspired a tectonic outpouring of enthusiasm and support from the American people.

这是肯尼迪在确认任命后于二月的讲话。

That is Kennedy speaking in February after his confirmation.

他和特朗普总统还向他们的支持者做出了承诺。

Along with President Trump, he's made promises to their base as well.

这是2024年9月的肯尼迪。

Here is Kennedy in September 2024.

在广大民众的支持下，特朗普总统和我将彻底改造我们的食品体系。

With a mass movement behind us, president Trump and I are gonna transform our food system.

我们要把化学物质从水源、空气、食物和土壤中全部清除。

We're gonna get the chemicals out of the water, out of our air, out of the food, and out of the soils.

肯尼迪职业生涯的大部分时间都是一名环境律师，致力于反对草甘膦。

Kennedy spent much of his career as an environmental lawyer fighting against glyphosate.

草甘膦是农达除草剂中使用的杀虫剂。

That's the pesticide used in Roundup.

2018年，他赢得了一起数百万美元的诉讼，指控农达除草剂很可能导致其客户患上癌症。

In 2018, he won a multimillion dollar lawsuit against the maker of Roundup arguing that the weed killer likely caused his client's cancer.

但上周，特朗普签署了一项行政命令，为美国国内更多生产草甘膦铺平了道路。

Then last week, Trump issued an executive order clearing a path for The US to produce more of it domestically.

而在社交媒体上的一篇长文中，肯尼迪为这项命令辩护，称：‘特朗普总统并没有建立我们现在的体系。’

And in a lengthy response on social media, Kennedy defended the order saying, quote, president Trump did not build our current system.

他只是继承了这个体系。

He inherited it.

我非常愤怒。

I was outraged.

看到这项行政命令时，我简直恶心到想吐。

I was actually sick to my stomach when I saw this executive order.

这简直就是一封给草甘膦的情书。

It was basically a love letter to glyphosate.

这是来自CNN的Zen Honeycutt，她是‘美国妈妈’组织的创始人兼执行董事。

That's Zen Honeycutt, the founder and executive director of Moms Across America on CNN.

我原本希望，既然肯尼迪被纳入政府并且曾对抗草甘膦并获胜，草甘膦或许会被如应有那样禁止。

I had hoped because Kennedy was brought on into the administration and fought glyphosate and won, that perhaps glyphosate would be banned as it should be.

想想看，一种除草剂让肯尼迪和他的MAHA支持者产生了分歧。

Consider this, a herbicide is putting Kennedy and his MAHA supporters at odds.

这里是NPR的胡安娜·萨默斯。

From NPR, I'm Juana Summers.

这里是NPR的‘想想看’节目。

It's consider this from NPR.

让美国更健康的支持者们感到愤怒，这使卫生部长罗伯特·F·肯尼迪 Jr. 处于他上司和粉丝之间的艰难境地。

Make America healthy against supporters are angry, and it's putting health secretary Robert f Kennedy junior in a tough spot between his boss and his fans.

原因如下。

Here's why.

上周，特朗普总统发布了一项行政命令，以增加国内草甘膦的生产，草甘膦是一种常用的除草剂。

Last week, president Trump issued an executive order to increase domestic production of glyphosate, which is commonly used as a weed killer.

你可能知道它的品牌名称为农达，这一命令立即在MAHA运动中引发了轩然大波。

You might know it by the brand name Roundup, and it immediately ignited an uproar in the MAHA movement.

肯尼迪及其支持者长期以来一直认为草甘膦对健康有害，但现在肯尼迪表示他支持特朗普的这项命令。

Kennedy and his base have long believed glyphosate is a health risk, but now Kennedy says he supports Trump's order.

这是否意味着特朗普与部分支持者之间开始出现裂痕？

So is this the beginning of a fallout between Trump and some members of his base?

现在加入我们讨论这一切的是海伦娜·巴德米勒·埃维奇。

Joining me now to talk about all of this is Helena Bademiller Evich.

她是《食品修复》通讯的创始人兼主编。

She's founder and editor in chief of the Food Fix newsletter.

欢迎来到节目。

Welcome to the program.

谢谢邀请我。

Thanks for having me.

好的。

Okay.

那么首先，这是关系破裂、紧张，还是你如何描述当前MAHA与特朗普之间的状况？

So just for starters, is this a fallout, a strain in the relationship, or how would you describe what is happening right now between Maha and Trump?

我目前还不认为这是彻底的决裂，但我们确实看到了一场婚姻争吵，而且这一切都发生在公众视野中。

So I don't yet see this as a full blown divorce, but we are definitely seeing a marital spat, and it's all happening in the public.

关键的MAHA倡导者和活动人士对这项命令感到非常不满，并且正在公开表达他们的愤怒。

So key MAHA advocates and activists are really upset about this order, and they're being very vocal about it.

这一切都在社交媒体上公开进行，但他们仍然希望这一届政府会顺应MAHA的议程，继续前进。

It is all happening in full view on social media, but they are still holding out hope that this administration will, you know, kind of bend to the MAHA agenda and keep moving forward.

所以这还不是彻底的决裂，但确实是一个非常混乱的时刻。

So not it's not a full fallout, but it is a very messy moment.

好的。

Okay.

所以，草甘膦，也就是我们提到的农达中的活性成分，正处于这场公开而混乱的争执的核心。

So glyphosate, which is an active ingredient in Roundup, as we mentioned, is at the center of this very sort of public messy spat.

为什么它对MAHA的议程如此重要？

Why is it such a cornerstone to the MAHA agenda?

我认为，MAHA的核心其实是对慢性疾病的担忧，人们从各种不同的角度参与其中。

So I think MAHA at its core is really a concern about chronic disease, and there's a lot of different ways that people plug into this.

你可能会听到一些MAHA妈妈们对疫苗表示担忧。

Some of the MAHA moms that you'll hear about are concerned about vaccines.

有些则关心环境毒素。

Some of them are concerned about environmental toxins.

她们还担心微塑料。

They're concerned about microplastics.

农药是这些核心关切之一，而草甘膦正是其中的一部分。

Pesticides is one of those kind of core concerns, And that's where glyphosate falls into this.

它是美国使用最广泛的除草剂。

It's the most commonly used herbicide in The US.

它是当前农业体系的支柱。

It is really a pillar of the current agricultural system.

许多MAHA妈妈希望大幅减少甚至禁止使用它。

And a lot of MAHA moms wanna see it dramatically reduced or even banned.

这就引发了这场冲突。

And that has set up this conflict.

我们现在的政府明显更倾向于放松监管。

We have an administration that is decidedly more deregulatory.

他们希望对产业更友好。

They wanna be more industry friendly.

他们当然想与农业产业保持良好关系。

They certainly want to, you know, stay friends with the agriculture industry.

这确实是一个重大的冲突点。

And this is really a big point of conflict.

据我了解，关于草甘膦的科学问题相当复杂。

And as I understand it, the science on glyphosate is pretty complicated.

有强有力的证据表明这种化学物质与淋巴瘤和帕金森病等疾病有关，但暴露程度至关重要。

There's strong evidence for an association between the chemical and diseases like lymphoma and Parkinson's, but the level of exposure matters a lot.

是这样吗？

Is that right?

因此，这个领域存在着激烈的争论。

So there is a really active debate in this space.

美国环保署长期以来一直认为草甘膦不会对公共健康构成风险。

The EPA has long maintained that glyphosate doesn't present a public health risk.

美国环保署裁定草甘膦不太可能是一种致癌物。

EPA has ruled that glyphosate is not likely to be a carcinogen.

国际癌症研究机构，也就是更为人熟知的IARC，是世界卫生组织的一部分，他们裁定草甘膦可能具有致癌性。

The International Agency for Research on Cancer, which is more commonly known as IARC, that's part of the World Health Organization, they ruled that glyphosate is probably carcinogenic.

这主要是基于动物研究得出的结论。

That was mainly looking at animal studies.

然而，长期以来被广泛引用以支持草甘膦安全性的关键研究之一，最近被撤回了。

One of the key studies that everyone has long pointed to to sort of back up the safety of glyphosate, however, was recently retracted.

这引发了警报，我认为进一步加剧了MAHA的担忧，即有理由认为草甘膦可能与癌症有关。

And that has thrown up this red flag and I think really, fueled even more MAHA concern that there are reasons to think that glyphosate might be contributing to cancer.

美国的陪审团已向那些认为自己患癌是由草甘膦引起的个人判赔数十亿美元。

Juries in The US have awarded billions of dollars to individuals who believe their cancer cases were caused by glyphosate.

生产草甘膦的拜耳公司目前在法庭上面临巨大压力。

And Bayer, which makes glyphosate, is now under tremendous pressure, in the courts.

早在2018年，罗伯特·F·

Back in 2018, Robert F.

肯尼迪 Jr. 起诉了农达的制造商，并赢得了一项数百万美元的诉讼，称这种除草剂很可能导致了他的客户患癌。

Kennedy junior won a multimillion dollar lawsuit against the maker of Roundup arguing that the weed killer likely caused his clients cancer.

那么，你认为他为何现在转而支持特朗普总统在美国增加草甘膦生产的计划呢？

So why do you think it is that he is now moving to fall in line with president Trump's plan to produce more of it in The United States?

肯尼迪公开表示，他个人相信草甘膦确实会导致癌症。

So what Kennedy has said publicly is that he personally believes that glyphosate does cause cancer.

需要明确的是，这并不是特朗普政府的官方立场。

That is not the Trump administration's official position, to be very clear.

他支持了总统的这项行政命令，基本上表示：看，我们目前依赖草甘膦。

He has backed the president's executive order here, basically saying, look, we are currently dependent on glyphosate.

也就是说，美国农业体系目前依赖这种化学品，我们不能直接弃用它。

Like, The US agricultural system currently relies on this, and we can't just walk away from it.

那将是灾难性的。

It would be disastrous.

他支持这样一种观点：出于国家安全原因，我们需要在国内增加生产。

He backs up the idea that we need to produce more domestically for national security reasons.

然而，这使得MAHA妈妈们和MAHA倡导者们对他的这一行政命令辩护感到极度愤怒。

This, however, has made I mean, the MAHA moms, the MAHA advocates are absolutely furious over his defense of this executive order.

如果你更深入地了解他最近的公开言论，他说他认为美国需要逐步淘汰草甘膦的使用，但我们必须缓慢进行。

If you dive a little bit more into what he said publicly recently, he said that he believes The US needs to transition away from using glyphosate, but we have to do so slowly.

作为一位政策记者，我认为这里的关键问题是：特朗普政府是否真的会制定出实现这一目标的计划。

I think one of the key questions here for me as a policy reporter is, like, whether or not the Trump administration's actually going to come up with a plan to do that.

这仍然是一个非常有争议的观点，而我还没有看到任何证据表明我们正在朝这个方向迈进。

That would still be a very controversial idea, and I've seen no evidence that we are actually moving in that direction.

因此，这仍然是MAHA运动内部以及特朗普政府内部的一个关键紧张点。

So it remains a really key point of tension within the MAHA movement and within the Trump administration.

在你看来，海伦娜，草甘膦是最具争议的焦点，还是说它只是在特朗普总统与MAHA基本盘之间的明显分歧中声音最大的那个？

To your mind, Helena, is glyphosate the most contentious point, or is it just the loudest when it comes to president Trump and the seeming rift with the MAHA base?

我认为，正是因为这项行政命令以及拜耳所面临的巨大诉讼压力，现在一切都彻底爆发了。

I think it's all ripping open right now because of this executive order and also the tremendous litigation pressure that Bayer is under.

此外，还有一个案件将在四月提交最高法院审理，主要试图决定环保署是否应拥有对草甘膦安全性的最终决定权，以及是否应实行联邦优先权，还是拜耳所面临的大量责任应当成立。

There's also a case that is going before the Supreme Court in April, basically trying to decide whether or not, like, EPA and should have the final say on the safety of glyphosate and whether we should have federal preemption or whether a lot of the liability that Bayer has faced will stand.

所以，他们基本上是在试图遏制这些诉讼的浪潮。

So basically, they're trying to stem the tide of these lawsuits.

到目前为止，特朗普政府一直站在拜耳一边。

So far, the Trump administration has been on the side of Bayer.

而MAHA倡导者现在正计划在最高法院首次进行口头辩论的那天，在法院外举行集会。

And MAHA advocates are actually now planning a rally outside of the Supreme Court the day that the first oral arguments are being heard.

因此，这将继续成为一个公开的激烈冲突。

And so this is going to continue to be a very big conflict that's going to happen publicly.

在特朗普政府内部，我们看到他们迄今为止的大多数MAHA胜利和MAHA言论都针对食品产业。

Within the Trump administration, we've seen most of their MAHA wins and most of the MAHA rhetoric so far going after the food industry.

所以他们在谈论逐步淘汰人工色素。

So they're talking about, you know, trying to phase out artificial dyes.

他们正试图让更多州禁止将苏打水纳入SNAP福利范围。

They're trying to get, more states to ban soda from SNAP.

他们非常关注对食品产业的批评言论，但农业方面的政治问题要复杂得多。

They are focused a lot on the rhetoric against the food industry, but the agriculture side, the politics are much trickier.

因此，我认为我们将继续看到这一点成为冲突的焦点。

And so I think we are going to continue to see this as a point of conflict.

这非常重要，因为我们正面临中期选举。

And this matters a lot because we're facing down the midterms.

共和党人希望在中期选举前将这一MAHA选民群体保留在他们的联盟中。

And Republicans wanna keep this MAHA voting bloc as part of their coalition going into the midterms.

我知道你花了一些时间阅读并听取了这个群体成员的意见。

I know that you have been spending some time reading and hearing from members of this group.

根据你所了解和学到的信息，你觉得这件事可能会如何收场？

Based on what you know and what you've learned, how do you think this might end?

我真的不知道这一切最终会走向何方，但我认为，所有这些的核心大问题是：一种去监管的、传统的共和党立场，能否与MAHA运动根本上所要求的——对环境和食品供应链中有毒物质的严格管控——相协调。

I really don't know where all of this is headed, but I think the big central question at the heart of all of this is whether a deregulatory sort of traditional Republican stance can square with what the MAHA movement fundamentally is asking for, which is a crackdown on toxins in the environment, toxins in the food supply.

这似乎正是我们目前正在经历并目睹的速成课程。

And this seems to be the kind of the crash course that that we are now on and that we are now seeing unfold.

我认为我们还会继续看到这方面的大量喧嚣。

I think we're gonna continue to see a lot of noise on this.

MAHA运动的草根力量正在强烈反对政府，他们希望最终，肯尼迪以及他们在外部制造的声势，能够促使特朗普政府向他们的方向倾斜。

The MAHA movement, the grassroots is pushing back hard on the administration, and they are hoping that at the end of the day, Kennedy and the noise that they make on the outside can maybe shift the Trump administration in their direction.

我不知道这是否会成功，但这就是他们所期望的。

I don't know that that will work, but that is what they are hoping for.

海伦娜·博多梅列维奇是《食品对策》通讯的创始人兼主编。

Helena Bodomelarievich is founder and editor in chief of the Food Fix newsletter.

谢谢。

Thank you.

非常感谢。

Thanks so much.

本集由卡伦·萨莫拉制作，音频工程由泰德·米班完成。

This episode was produced by Karen Zamora with audio engineering by Ted Meebane.

本集由莎拉·汉德尔编辑。

It was edited by Sarah Handel.

我们的执行制片人是萨米·叶尼根。

Our executive producer is Sammy Yenigan.

感谢我们的Consider This Plus听众，你们支持NPR记者的工作，帮助维持公共广播的活力。

Thanks to our Consider This Plus listeners who support the work of NPR journalists and help keep public radio strong.

支持者还能无广告收听所有剧集，并解锁Consider This的独家附加剧集。

Supporters also hear every episode without messages from sponsors and unlock bonus episodes of Consider This.

了解更多，请访问 +.npr.org。

Learn more at +.npr.org.

这是来自NPR的《Consider This》。

It's Consider This from NPR.

我是胡安娜·萨默斯。

I'm Juana Summers.

想不听广告就能收听这个播客吗？

Wanna hear this podcast without sponsor breaks?

亚马逊Prime会员可以通过亚马逊音乐无广告收听《Consider This》，或者您也可以通过访问plus.npr.org支持NPR的重要新闻报道，获取《Consider This+》服务。

Amazon Prime members can listen to Consider This sponsor free through Amazon Music, or you can also support NPR's vital journalism and get consider this +@plus.NPR.org.

网址是+.npr.org。

That's +.npr.org.