新任ICE行动负责人能否平息明尼苏达州的紧张局势？

特朗普总统的语气没过多久就发生了变化。

It didn't take long for president Trump's tone to change.

一天半后，他称与明尼苏达州州长蒂姆·沃尔兹和明尼阿波利斯市长雅各布·弗赖进行了积极的对话。

A day and a half after, he reported positive conversations with Minnesota governor Tim Walls and Minneapolis mayor Jacob Fry.

总统在他的社交媒体上发帖称，这位市长正在‘玩火’。

The president posted on his social media site that the mayor is, quote, all caps, playing with fire.

这是因为弗赖在周二与汤姆·霍曼会面时告知对方，该市拒绝执行联邦移民法律。

It's because Fry told Tom Homan in a Tuesday meeting the city refuses to enforce federal immigration laws.

霍曼是特朗普政府的边境事务主管，他被派往明尼苏达州，旨在缓和局势。此前，一场名为‘冰行动’的执法行动已持续数周，引发全国关注和紧张，并导致两名美国公民死亡。

Homan is the Trump administration's border czar, and he was sent to Minnesota to bring down the temperature weeks into an ice operation that has become a national conversation and tension point and has left two American citizens dead.

你知道，我们现在有汤姆·霍曼在那里。

You know, we have Tom Homan there now.

我们把他派过去了。

We put him in there.

他很棒。

He's great.

他们与州长、市长以及其他人都会面了，我们会稍微降低一下紧张局势。

And, they met with the governor, mayor, everybody else, and we'll we're gonna de escalate a little bit.

霍曼接替了格雷格·博维诺，后者直到周一一直在监督这项行动。

Homan replaces Greg Bovino, who until Monday had been overseeing the operation.

特朗普的边境事务主管曾为民主党与共和党的总统工作过，并且是特朗普第一任期内家庭分离政策的策划者。

Trump's border czar has worked for Democratic and Republican presidents and was the architect of Trump's family separation policy in his first term.

想想这一点。

Consider this.

在亚历克斯·普雷蒂遇害后，特朗普政府正在明尼阿波利斯当地进行领导层调整。

After the shooting of Alex Preti, the Trump administration is making a leadership change on the ground in Minneapolis.

会有任何改变吗？

Will anything change?

来自NPR，我是斯科特·德特拉。

From NPR, I'm Scott Detra.

很难买到房子。

It is hard to get a house.

凑齐首付款，真够艰难的。

Getting that down payment together, brutal.

你得被派到吉布提才能负担得起

You shipped off to Djibouti to afford a

买房的首付款？

down payment for a house?

是的，长官。

Yes, sir.

百分之百。

100%.

资金短缺，房价高昂。

Unplanted money, the high price of housing.

特朗普政府正试图对此采取什么措施？会有效吗？

What the Trump administration is trying to do about it, and will it work?

请在NPR应用或您收听播客的任何平台收听。

Listen on the NPR app or wherever you get your podcasts.

这是《新鲜空气》的联合主持人塔尼娅·莫塞利。

This is Tanya Moseley, cohost of Fresh Air.

你可能会在深夜电视节目或YouTube上看到你喜爱的演员、导演和喜剧演员，但《新鲜空气》能让你深入了解他们。

You'll see your favorite actors, directors, and comedians on late night TV shows or YouTube, but what you get with Fresh Air is a deep dive.

与比莉·艾利什、奎斯特洛夫、爱莉安娜·格兰德、斯蒂芬·科尔伯特等人共度一段高质量的时光，还有更多其他人。

Spend some quality time with people like Billie Eilish, Questlove, Ariana Grande, Stephen Colbert, and so many more.

我们会提出你在其他地方听不到的问题。

We ask questions you won't hear asked anywhere else.

收听来自NPR和WHYY的《新鲜空气》播客。

Listen to the Fresh Air podcast from NPR and WHYY.

这是NPR的《就此而言》。

It's consider this from NPR.

领导层的调整能否真正改变明尼阿波利斯的现状？

Can a leadership shuffle do anything to meaningfully change the situation in Minneapolis?

这是我们向《大西洋月刊》记者凯特琳·迪克森提出的第一个问题，她多年来一直追踪汤姆·霍曼的职业生涯。

That is the first question we put to reporter Caitlin Dickerson of The Atlantic who's been covering Tom Homan's career for years.

我一会儿再深入讲讲霍曼的背景和经历，但先从这一点说起。

I wanna zoom out and get to Homan's backstory and bio in a moment, but let's start with this.

在当前这个紧张的时刻，你认为格雷格·布维诺和汤姆·霍曼之间最根本的区别是什么？

In this moment, in this tense situation, what to you is the most meaningful difference between Greg Buvino and Tom Homan?

汤姆·霍曼是移民与海关执法局的资深领导人，而布维诺则来自边境巡逻队。

So Tom Homan is a longtime leader in ICE, whereas Bovino comes from the border patrol.

移民与海关执法局是我们负责在美国境内执行移民执法的执法机构。

And ICE is our law enforcement agency that carries out immigration enforcement in the interior of the country.

我认为这一点很重要，因为在美国内陆城市进行逮捕、与美国公民互动时，面对的是拥有更多法律权利和保护的人群，这些人比初次试图越境者更难应对，也更敏感。

I think that's important because it's an entirely different beast when you're carrying out arrests in American cities, when you're interacting with American citizens, people who have more legal rights and protections than those who are trying to cross the border for the first time, and who are just generally more sensitive to deal with.

所有这些，霍曼都极其熟悉。

All of that is stuff that Homan is intimately familiar with.

所以我认为这其中存在着巨大的变化。

So I think there's a big change there.

我的意思是，他在华盛顿特区长期领导着移民执法行动，历经了民主党与共和党两届政府，而布维诺此前在边境巡逻队中一直是个边缘人物，直到特朗普时期才被提拔上来。

I mean, he's a long time leader in DC of immigration enforcement operations across Democratic and Republican administrations, whereas Bovino was really kind of a a fringe character in the border patrol until he was elevated under Trump.

因此，在某种程度上，我认为政府正试图推出一位有与全国媒体打交道经验的人，或许还试图将他塑造为一个温和的形象。

And so to a certain extent, I think the administration is trying to bring forward somebody who has experience talking to the national press and who is maybe they're trying to frame as a sort of moderating figure.

但当我们深入他的背景时，我认为有大量的证据可以反驳这种说法，尤其是在霍曼的实际履历方面。

But when we get into his background, I think there's a lot of evidence to push back against that when it comes to Homan's actual record.

这正是我好奇你想说什么的地方。

That's what I was curious about what you thought.

因为无论是专业化，还是在某些情况下人们所说的更温和的策略，

Because whether it's a professionalization or or in some cases, people are saying it's a more moderate approach.

这都被视为一种缓和局势的举措。

This is being framed as a deescalatory move.

根据你对汤姆·霍曼及其背景的了解，你是否也这样认为？

Do you see it that way based on what you know about Tom Homan and his background?

很难这样看，斯科特，因为我多年来一直在报道汤姆·霍曼。

Hard for me to see it that way, Scott, because I've spent years reporting on Tom Homan.

我很了解他。

I know him well.

我对他进行了深入的采访。

I've interviewed him extensively.

在那段时期，我主要报道了特朗普第一任政府在美墨边境实施的家庭分离政策。

And a big part of that time, spent reporting on the first Trump administration's family separation policy at the southern border.

这是整个政府时期最具争议、最激进的执法政策之一。

One of, if not, the most controversial and aggressive enforcement policies of that entire administration.

而汤姆·霍曼正是这一政策的策划者。

And Tom Homan was the architect of it.

他在采访中向我承认了这一点。

He admitted this to me in interviews.

他告诉我，他最早是在奥巴马政府时期提出在边境分离家庭的构想。

He told me that he first proposed the idea to separate families at the border under the Obama administration.

他和前国土安全部部长杰伊·约翰逊都告诉我，约翰逊当时拒绝了这个提议，认为它不人道。

Both he and former secretary of homeland security, Jay Johnson, told me that Johnson rejected the idea because he thought it was inhumane.

霍曼在特朗普第一任政府时期重新提出这一方案，并持续一年多大力推动，最终使该政策得以实施；他甚至声称存在明确的程序以确保父母与孩子能安全团聚，但这些说法后来被证明并不属实，他发动的这场压力运动最终导致成千上万的家庭被拆散。

Homan brought it back up under the first Trump administration and pushed really hard over the course of more than a year to get that policy put into place, even going so far as to say things that turned out not to be true, such as that there was a clear procedure in place for how to make sure that parents and children were safely reunited at one point, and really just embarking on this pressure campaign that ultimately led to thousands of families being separated.

这可能是特朗普第一任期内最具争议的政策之一，除了可能的一两个例外，它引发了最强烈的反弹和政治回应，让整个政治光谱的人都感到愤怒。

And that was probably, with maybe one or two exceptions, one of the policies of the first Trump administration that got the most backlash, got the most political response, really upset people across the political spectrum.

汤姆·霍曼有没有退缩过？

Did Tom Homan ever back away from that?

他有没有说过这个政策是错的，或者承认在任何方面、任何形式上犯了错误？

Did he ever say that this was wrong or or concede that mistakes were made in any way, shape, or form?

从那以后，他一直摇摆不定。

He's really waffled since then.

所以，正如我所说，最初汤姆·霍曼并不羞于成为这项政策的坚定支持者。

So initially, as I said, Tom Homan was not ashamed to been a be a big supporter of this policy.

当杰夫·塞申斯在圣地亚哥的新闻发布会上宣布这项分离家庭的政策时，霍曼站在他身后表示支持。

He stood behind Jeff Sessions, the attorney general, when Sessions announced the policy to separate families at a press conference in San Diego.

当我多年后采访霍曼时，他再次坦率地谈到了自己所扮演的角色。

When I interviewed Homan years later, he was again very open about the role that he played.

但我注意到，在特朗普最近一次竞选期间，霍曼开始试图稍稍回避家庭分离的问题，这令人困惑，因为他曾公开承认自己发挥了关键作用。

But I did notice that during president Trump's most recent campaign, Homan did try to start to back away from family separations a little bit, which was confusing given that he was on the record acknowledging the critical role that he played.

是的

Mhmm.

但我认为他确实明白这项政策不受欢迎，因此试图事后改变舆论导向。

But I think he did he did understand that it was an unpopular policy, and so tried to sort of shift the narrative afterward.

因此，当他涉及自己推动和协助制定的政策时，这是了解他的一个重要方面。

So that's an important thing to know about him when it comes to policies that he has pushed for and helped orchestrate.

近年来，引起广泛关注的另一件事是他的财务往来。

One other thing that's gotten a lot of attention over the last few years is his financial dealings.

他的政治生涯与经济利益之间存在诸多交集。

The many ways in which his political life has intersected with his financial interests.

关于这一点，我们需要了解些什么？

What do we need to know about that?

长期以来，人们称之为‘旋转门’现象，即国土安全部的高级官员，特别是那些通过在全国范围内拘留移民赚取数十亿美元的私营监狱公司之间，来回流动。

So there's a long standing revolving door, people call it, between high ranking roles in the Department of Homeland Security, in and particular, the private prison companies that make billions of dollars on detaining immigrants across the country.

你经常看到，一些从移民与海关执法局和国土安全部高级职位退休的人，转而进入这些私营公司的高层职位，而这些公司正是与你昔日的同事进行谈判——而这些同事未来也可能希望退休后进入这些私营公司任职。

You often have people who retire from these high level roles at ICE and DHS into high ranking roles at these private companies that are then negotiating with you're essentially negotiating with your former colleagues, colleagues who may want to retire themselves into these roles at private companies later.

因此，人们质疑这是否创造了一种容易产生可疑交易的环境，政府可能没有像应有那样严格监管这些私人承包商，因为政府官员自己可能正在寻找未来的工作机会。

And so people have raised questions about whether that creates an environment for dubious deal making, for the government maybe not holding these private contractors to account to the degree that they should because government officials might be looking for jobs in the future themselves.

嗯。

Mhmm.

所以汤姆·霍曼在离开政府后，在拜登政府时期成立了一家咨询公司。

So Tom Homan, when he left government, he formed during the Biden administration a consulting company.

在网上，他吹嘘自己在数千万美元的联邦合同授予其私人客户的过程中发挥了重要作用。

And online, he bragged about playing an important role in tens of millions of dollars, he said, in federal contracts being awarded to his private clients.

简而言之，他作为中间人，连接着他非常熟悉的联邦官员和他同样熟悉的私营监狱公司高管，以及可能其他我们并不了解的私人承包商——因为他从未公布过他声称促成的所有交易清单。

So basically, as a middleman between the federal officials he knew very well and the private prison company officials he knew very well, as well as perhaps other type of types of private contractors that we don't know about because he didn't publish a list of all of the deals he supposedly brokered.

但他非常坦率地表示，自己一直在协助和推动这些交易。

But he was very open about helping to support and facilitate these deals.

去年有消息披露，他实际上参与了司法部的一次钓鱼执法行动。

And then it came out last year that he was actually involved in a sting operation with the DOJ.

是的。

Yeah.

基本事实是，卧底的联邦调查局特工 allegedly 提供了他五万美元的贿赂款。

The basic facts of it were that undercover FBI agents, you know, allegedly offered him $50,000 in in in bribe money.

他们说他接受了这笔钱。

They said he accepted it.

他对此予以否认。

He denies this.

司法部关闭了这起贿赂案，而白宫新闻秘书卡罗琳·利维特在这件事曝光后，将这一切描述为钓鱼执法。

The Department of Justice closed the bribery case, and the White House press secretary, Caroline Leavitt, when this all came out, characterized all of that as entrapment.

她确实是这么说的。

She did.

考虑到我们后来从联邦调查局和司法部整体上看到的情况，以及政治如何影响了他们的工作，你真的必须质疑这种说法。

And you really have to question that description given what we've since seen from the FBI and the Department of Justice in general and how politics have influenced their work.

你知道，我们谈论的是一个从二十多岁就开始从事执法工作的人。

You know, we're talking about somebody who's been in law enforcement since he was in his twenties.

汤姆·霍曼在23岁时加入边境巡逻队之前，曾是一名地方警察。

Tom Homan was a local police officer before he moved into the border patrol at 23 years old.

接受一个装有五万美元现金的包，我认为即使是刚入行的执法人员也知道这是不恰当的，很可能引发道德质疑，甚至 outright illegal。

Accepting a bag with $50 $50,000 in cash is something that I think even a very new law enforcement officer knows is untoward and likely to raise questions about ethics, if not be outright illegal.

因此，我认为这里存在明显的偏颇，试图为霍曼开脱，说他被陷害了，或者他根本不知道这是错的。

And so I think there's some real spin going on there in terms of trying to give Homan the benefit of the doubt, saying that he was entrapped or that perhaps he didn't know any better.

我认为，对于一个像他这样一生都在执法部门工作的人来说，这种说法根本站不住脚。

I don't think that's really a plausible response to somebody who spent a lifetime in law enforcement in the way that he has.

第二任特朗普政府的整体故事在于，它比第一任要极端得多——在第一任期间，白宫曾有政策被叫停、撤回、重新评估，或由掌权者表示‘我们这次不会这么做’。

To the overarching story of the second Trump administration is how much more extreme it's been than the first one, that there were policies where the White House kind of stopped or pulled back or reassessed or people in positions of power said, we're not gonna do this the first time around.

但这一次，在许多方面，这种情况根本就没有发生。

That just hasn't happened on so many fronts this time around.

你觉得汤姆·霍曼在第二任政府中，与第一任相比有什么不同之处吗？

What do you see, if anything, that's different about Tom Homan in the second administration compared to the first administration?

汤姆·霍曼确实越来越向右倾斜，从第一任特朗普政府时期就开始，一直延续到拜登政府时期。

So Tom Homan has definitely moved further and further to the right, starting in the first Trump administration into the Biden administration.

但我认为他被召回来的原因，是他职业生涯中一直展现的一项技能。

But why I think he's probably being called in is because of a skill that he's demonstrated throughout his career.

在报道霍曼时，我 consistently 听到的说法是，他总是非常擅长让每个人都觉得他是自己的盟友。

In reporting on Homan, I consistently heard that he was always really good at making everybody feel like he was their ally.

尽管他作为执法强硬派，经常使用极具攻击性的言辞来为驱逐几乎所有联邦当局能抓到的人辩护，但在奥巴马政府时期，像国土安全部中更具倡导精神的人也认为可以去找他寻求支持。

So as much as he is an enforcement hardliner and used really aggressive language to justify deporting just about anybody that federal authorities can get their hands on, He was also someone in the Obama administration, for example, who people who were more advocacy minded at DHS felt they could go to.

与此同时，那些希望更快推进、在更少限制下建设更多设施的私营监狱公司，也同样把霍曼视为盟友。

At the same time, the private prison companies who wanted to move faster and build more with less restrictions would do the same thing, also saw Homan as an ally.

因此，我认为不能忽视他在支持强硬政策方面变得更为激进，但他也是一个非常精明的政治家。

And so I think it can't be discounted how much more aggressive he's become in terms of supporting hardline policies, but he's also a very skilled politician.

我认为，正是这两点结合在一起，才让他如今身处这个位置。

I think those two things together are why he's in the position he is now.

考虑到这一切，你接下来几周在明尼阿波利斯关注他时，会特别留意什么？

Any sense, given all of that, what you're looking for over the next few weeks in Minneapolis with him now in charge?

只要斯蒂芬·米勒仍保有如今这般极具影响力的地位，霍曼就会直接听命于总统和他。

He's gonna be taking direct orders from the president and from Stephen Miller as long as Stephen Miller remains in the very influential position that he's in now.

眼下正发生着许多变动，这让我立刻想起了公众舆论转向反对第一波家庭分离政策的那个时期。

So there's a a lot of shifting happening right now, and I'm really reminded of in this moment of the period when public opinion turned against that first family separation policy.

人们很容易忘记，但就在很短的时间内，就连国会中的共和党人也从支持这项政策转变为像泰德·克鲁兹这样的人宣称它应该被定为非法。

And it's easy to forget, but you actually, in a very short period of time, went from even Republicans in Congress supporting that policy to people like Ted Cruz declaring that it should be illegal.

到目前为止，一直是斯蒂芬·米勒在主导，但我认为这一点现在似乎受到了质疑，因为政府已经意识到，听从米勒的建议在公众舆论方面给他们带来了多大的麻烦。

Up until now, it's been Stephen Miller, but I think that does seem to be in question because the administration is seeing how much trouble listening to Miller has gotten them in when it comes to public opinion.

这是《大西洋月刊》的记者凯特琳·迪克森。

That is Caitlin Dickerson, reporter at The Atlantic.

非常感谢你。

Thank you so much.

谢谢，斯科特。

Thanks, Scott.

本集由凯伦·萨莫拉和文森特·阿科维诺制作。

This episode was produced by Karen Zamora and Vincent Acovino.

由考特尼·多宁和莎拉·汉德尔剪辑。

It was edited by Courtney Dorning and Sarah Handel.

我们的执行制片人是萨米·叶尼根。

Our executive producer is Sammy Yenigan.

这是来自NPR的节目。

It's consider this from NPR.

我是斯科特·达特罗。

I'm Scott Duttrow.

在《TED播客》中，如果你中了彩票，你的生活将会变得很棒。

On the TED Radio Hour, if you won the lottery, your life would be amazing.

对吧？

Right?

所以我认为，每个人在玩彩票时，心里都会有一个中奖后生活的画面。

So I think everyone's got a vision of what it's like to win the lottery in their head when they're playing.

但现实当然截然不同。

The reality, of course, is very different.

关于如何充分利用现有的一切并找到自主权的想法。

Ideas about making the most of what you've got and finding agency.

请在NPR应用或您收听播客的任何平台收听《TED播客》。

Listen to the TED Radio Hour on the NPR app or wherever you get your podcasts.

委内瑞拉、伊朗、格陵兰。

Venezuela, Iran, Greenland.

世界大事变化迅速。

World events move quickly.

通过NPR的《世界现状》来理解这些事件。

Make sense of them with state of the world from NPR.

我们每天工作日都会在几分钟内为您带来全球实地报道。

We bring you on the ground reporting from around the globe in just a few minutes every weekday.

在NPR应用或您收听播客的任何平台收听《世界现状》。

Listen to State of the World on the NPR app or wherever you get your podcasts.