克里斯·卢伊特：西班牙网球是否在走下坡路？

欢迎收听第256期《掌控可控因素》。在介绍本期精彩内容前——这期绝对值得所有网球爱好者、尤其是深谙网球门道及西班牙网球精髓的听众收听，西班牙网球多年来成就斐然。但我也想借此机会提一下索托网球学院，这是一所西班牙的网球学院。

Welcome to episode 256 of controller controllables. And before I let you know about today's show, which is an absolute beauty for anyone who loves tennis, who anyone who understands the ins and outs of tennis and Spanish tennis in particular that has had so much success over the years. This is absolutely an episode for you. But I do wanna take this opportunity also to mention soccer tennis academy. It's a Spanish academy.

这是我和妻子十五年前创立的学院，如今我们正在庆祝十五周年纪念。我们想借此契机做些有意义的事，既为纪念这段历程，也想为公益筹款和提升认知。和许多家庭一样，我母亲在过去六七八年间一直饱受痴呆症与阿尔茨海默病折磨。

It's the academy that myself and my wife set up fifteen years ago now, and we're celebrating the fifteenth year anniversary. And we wanna do something. We wanna use it. We wanna mark that time, but we also wanna use it for for good and to to be able to to raise some funds, to raise some awareness. My mom, like many of you that will have family members, has suffered from dementia and Alzheimer's for for the last six, seven, eight years.

我深知这对我父亲、家人及周围亲友的影响。英国阿尔茨海默病协会是个了不起的组织，真正为无数家庭带来帮助。我们将结合索托网球十五周年，邀请现役、退役及未来的索托网球家庭成员参与——在6月1日至6月30日期间，通过跑步、骑行、游泳、单脚跳等任何方式完成15公里（即15,000米）挑战，为抗击阿尔茨海默病募捐。

And I know the impact that's had on on my dad, on on the family, and and so many people around. And Alzheimer's Society UK is is an is an amazing organization that that really does bring so much to families. And what we're doing is we're combining that with the fifteen years of of of So to tennis, and we're we're looking for current, past, and future So to tennis family members to either run, roll, swim, hop, skip, or anything of 15,000 meters. So that's 15 kilometers between June 1 and and the June. And we're gonna be raising money for Alzheimer's.

节目备注中将附上链接，欢迎参与或慷慨解囊。这是个极富意义的组织，感谢大家的聆听与支持。现在进入正题：今天嘉宾是美国教练克里斯·刘易斯，他二十年来潜心钻研西班牙网球奥秘。

We're gonna be putting the link in the show notes. If you wanna get involved, please do. If you wanna just give a spare few pennies, please do as well. It's an amazing organization, and and thank you for listening and supporting with that. And now about today's episode, Chris Lewis, who's an American coach who has dedicated twenty years of his life to find out more about the secrets of Spanish tennis.

他著书立说、开设博客，对此领域有着非凡洞见。我们将探讨：西班牙网球是否在衰落？希望你们喜欢这场发人深省的对话。

He's written books about it. He's done blogs. He's someone who has a a massive insight and knowledge into it all, and we have a conversation. We are exploring, is Spanish tennis on the decline? And I hope you enjoy the conversation.

现在有请克里斯·刘易斯。克里斯，热烈欢迎来到《掌控可控因素》，最近如何？

I hope it's thought provoking, and I'll pass you over to Chris Lewitt. So, Chris Lewitt, a big welcome to Control the Controllables. How are you doing?

很棒，丹。我是这档节目的忠实粉丝。

Great, Dan. I'm a big fan of the show.

克里斯，听到这个真是太好了，这是一场我非常期待的对话。你知道吗？我们将尽可能深入地探讨西班牙网球。我知道过去几年你在这方面投入了大量时间，但我的出发点是听众可能会疑惑——等等，我听不出这是西班牙口音。

That's that's lovely to hear, Chris, and it's this is a this is a conversation that I'm very excited about. You know? And we're gonna we're gonna delve as deep as we possibly can into Spanish tennis. I know that you've spent a lot of time doing that over the last few years, but my starting point was people are listening and going, well, hold on. I I don't recognize that Spanish accent.

所以首先请告诉我们，你来自哪里？

So tell us tell us firstly where where are you from?

是的，我来自纽约市，是一名美国教练。大约二十年前，我对西班牙网球产生了痴迷。这份好奇心驱使我走遍西班牙各地，向一些西班牙传奇人物学习。最终这成就了一本广受欢迎的书籍《西班牙网球的秘密》，这就是我在西班牙故事的开端。

Yes. I'm from New York City. I'm an American coach, and I became obsessed with Spanish tennis, about twenty years ago. And my curiosity led me to travel all over Spain and study with some of the legends in Spain. And so it ended up becoming a book that's very popular, The Secrets of Spanish Tennis, and that's that's really how my story began in Spain.

我想直接切入主题。虽然也许下次可以请你完整分享你的故事，克里斯托，那一定也很精彩。美国给人的印象是安于现状，我们常在欧洲听说美国有多少比例的人没有护照。所以对于有人能走出去探索，我很想了解。但我的第一个问题——我们一直在研究这个，我也做了深入调查——

And and I wanna jump straight in on this. As much as maybe we get you on another time to get your full story, Crystal, I think that's fascinating as well. America is kind of known for staying in their place and whatever percentage of people who don't have passports in America that we always hear over in Europe and, you know, so for someone to get out there, I wanna understand that. But my my starting question, and we've been looking into it. I've had a good look into it.

我们开始看到相关讨论出现：西班牙网球是否在衰落？

We're starting to see kind of posts coming out about this. Is Spanish tennis on the decline?

这个问题的答案是既肯定又否定。我们可以深入探讨其中的复杂性。如果以TOP100球员数量作为标准，相比西班牙网球的黄金时期——那时常年有10到15名球员位居TOP100——现在确实在衰退。节目开始前我查过，目前只有7人，而且很快可能降至5人，远低于历史水平。所以媒体和评论员们常说西班牙网球在衰落。

So yes and no. And then we can get into the complexity. But yes, in terms of top 100 players, if by that metric, certainly on the decline compared to its heyday, where Spain used to have 10 to 15 players in the top 100 for many years. And now I checked before the show, have seven currently, and they could easily have five soon, which is much lower than they typically have. So, yes, in the news and and you'll hear a lot of commentators say that Spanish tennis is in decline.

但我想为西班牙网球辩护——他们的训练体系方法论本质上仍是健全有效的。虽然这套方法论需要某些升级和现代化改进，但就教学体系而言，它依然是套好方法。

But I would argue, I'll try to take the position I'll try to defend Spanish tennis and say the methodology is still sound. It's still effective. By and large, there are some upgrades and modernization that should happen to the methodology. But the system, in in that sense, the method of teaching is is still good. It's still a a good method.

而西班牙教练的焦点，西班牙训练的焦点已转向国际球员。我认为这才是真正的原因，这就是所谓的'衰退'的关键驱动力。

And the focus of Spanish trainers, the focus of Spanish training has shifted to international players. And I think that is the real for me, that's the key driver of the, quote, unquote, decline.

为了澄清这一点，我们现在讨论的是男子西班牙网球的数据。回溯到2002/2001年，曾有五位排名前30的球员。在2002/2010年，我们有三位进入前十，六位进入前30。那可以说是黄金时代，基本上只要是西班牙人，你就是不可战胜的。

And just to just to clarify that, we're talking about men's Spanish tennis in terms of the numbers right now. So if we go back to 02/2001, there was five top 30 players. You know, back in 02/2010, we had three in the top ten, six in the top 30. You know, that was kind of the golden era where you were basically Spanish. You were you were unbeatable.

即使在2015年，仍有五位前30球员，而现在只有卡洛斯·阿尔卡拉斯位列前25。正如你正确指出的，目前有七位进入前100。布斯塔正拼命保住他前100的位置。如你所说，这个数字可能很快会降到五位。而且这些选手中只有阿尔卡拉斯年龄在25岁以下。

You know, even back in 02/2015, five top 30 players, and now there's only Carlos Alcaraz in the top 25. And as you rightly say, there's seven in the top 100. Carreno Buster is holding on for his dear life to that top 100 spot as well. And like you said, that could quite easily be five very soon. And there's only one of those players under the age of 25, which is Alcaraz.

在WTA方面——克里斯，这也是我今天想讨论的话题，因为我对此有些看法。西班牙已有十五年没有女子网球学院了，我认为西班牙体系在女子方面从未真正有效运作过，我很想听听你的见解。目前仅有三位选手进入世界前100，但回溯十到二十年前，这个数字也从未超过五六位。

On the w three a side, and this is something I do wanna talk about today as well, Chris, because I've got some opinions on this. I haven't had an academy in Spain for fifteen years. I don't think the Spanish system's ever really worked so well on the women's side, and and I'd love to get your thoughts on that. But there's currently only three players in the top 100 in the world. But if we go back ten, fifteen, twenty years, there was only ever really five or six.

她们从未真正成为强权。最后再补充些数据——克里斯，我知道你了解这些——在深入探讨前，我想指出西班牙目前男子选手前100数量排名世界第五。你的祖国在这方面做得很好，我认为他们在男女选手前100数量上都位居榜首。让我们分析衰退原因的同时，也要为西班牙网球辩护——我们绝非在此诋毁这个为网球世界贡献巨大的国度。

You know, they've never really been that powerhouse. And then the last little, just to throw numbers at you, and I know you know these, Chris, but before you start telling us a little bit more, you know, I think Spain is now currently the number five country in the world on the men's side for players that are in the top 100. Your home country, and maybe you can tell us what they're doing right because I believe they're top on the men's side and the women's side right now in terms of players inside the top 100 in the world. So into some of the reasons, if we start to kind of unpack some of the reasons why you think that declines happened, and then certainly at like you, I'd love for us to also defend that corner as well because far from are we sitting here just starting to throw mud at Spanish tennis, you know, who Yeah. Who have kind of done so much in the world of tennis.

是的。为听众说明下，节目前我们就讨论过这是个复杂问题，存在多重因素。关于衰退的原因是多方面的。我喜欢你开场提出的问题：'是否存在衰退？'

Yes. Just for the listener's sake, we were talking before the show. This is a complex issue, and there's a number of factors. It's multifactorial, the reasons for the decline. I think it's important, like, you you I like how you started and said, is there a decline?

我们应先确认这是否属实。从数学角度看，你展示的前100及顶尖选手数据确实显示衰退。这里有些有趣的衍生话题——WTA的情况，我们将讨论男子选手数量'衰退'的原因。而女子方面，过去三四十年数据相对稳定，正如你提到的，顶尖女选手始终维持在少数。最近穆古鲁扎可能是西班牙最出色的女选手，她赢得过两个大满贯。

We should establish whether that's true or not. And I think if you look at the numbers mathematically, there certainly is a decline in those top 100 numbers and those top those top numbers that you represented. There's a number of interesting offshoots here, the the WTA story, and we and we're gonna talk about the reasons for for the, quote, unquote, decline in the the men the men's numbers. But on the women's side, I think the numbers have stayed relatively stable over the last thirty or forty years, and I think that's what you alluded to, probably a handful of top female players. Most recently, Mugurusa is the probably the best female player in Spain who she won two grand slams.

瓦尔朵萨近期在女子网球世界排名中位列第二。男子方面，我想指出的是，在六七十年代，西班牙仅有少数几位职业男选手。以西班牙约4500万的人口规模——这个在国际网球表现优异的国家中属于较小的——他们通常每年在ATP前100名中不足五人。而到了八十年代末九十年代初，突然出现爆发式增长，直至近年（如2012年2月），他们曾有15名选手跻身ATP男单前100名。

Valdosa was recently number two in the world on the female side. On the men's side, I want to make a point that in the sixties and seventies, Spain only had a handful of male players that were pros. And so typically for the for the size of that Spain is, mid forty forty million, 45,000,000 population count, one of the smaller countries that does well in in international tennis, they typically had less than five pros, you know, in the top 100 over the years. And then there was this giant boom starting in the late eighties, early nineties, and then, of course, as in more recent memory into the February, where typically they would have 10 to 15. I think as late as 02/2012, they had 15 in the top 100 of men ATP.

若仅从数字看，从15人降至7人（且阿古特即将退役，布斯塔伤病缠身），这堪称断崖式下滑。纳达尔饱受伤病困扰后退役，西班牙选手确实有些时运不济。

So that's a remarkable decline if you just look at the math, you know, going down from 15 to seven. And probably five soon because Agut is is also gonna retire soon. And Correna Boussa's had a number of injuries. So they've been a little bit unlucky. Nadal had a ton of injuries and retired.

前TOP10选手布斯塔退役后跌出百名开外；伤愈复出的阿古特也临近退役。西班牙很可能将只剩5名顶尖选手，而年轻球员青黄不接——人才储备管道目前相当匮乏，这才是最令人担忧的。

Busta was the top 10 player and retired, so he dropped out of the top 100. Agud has come back from injury, but he's he's gonna retire, and it's probably soon. So the the this likely, they could have five. And so you have to fill those spots with young players coming up, and that's one of the main concerns, that there's not enough young players coming up in the pipeline, though. The pipeline's quite thin.

但我认为数量下滑的主因在于：其一，西班牙网球学院和俱乐部层面忽视本土球员培养，过度聚焦国际球员——这与网球学院的商业化运作相关；其二，他们同时对外输出了训练体系。这对西班牙形成了双重打击。

But I would take the position that the main reason that the numbers have gone down is a lack of focus at the academy level. Well, cup two main reasons. At the academy level in Spain, at the club level, a lack of focus on native born players and more of a focus on international players, and that relates to the commercialization of Spanish tennis academies. And at the same time, they've exported their system. So we have this, like, dual negative for for Spain.

西班牙教练全球迁徙传播训练方法，客观上提升了竞争对手水平。与其说是西班牙衰退，不如说其他国家突飞猛进——西班牙并未犯致命错误，只是别国进步神速。

They've exported their system. They sent they there's been a diaspora of Spanish coaches, coaches migrating to all parts of the world to spread the Spanish way of training. So that's made the competitors better. So I would probably even rephrase the the this saying they it's a decline. I think that Spain has sort of has not necessarily done something terribly wrong, but other countries have gotten a lot better.

当西班牙维持现状时，别国已然崛起。这些国家正用西班牙的训练武器反制他们：既吸收了西班牙方法论，又将其转化为对抗优势。某种程度上，这是西班牙自食其果——他们主动开放体系并广邀教练。

So Spain is here, and other countries have risen up. And in many ways, other countries are other countries are using the Spanish tools against them. They've they've adopted many of the Spanish approaches, and they're using the those methodologies against Spain. And that's partly Spain's fault. I mean, they they shared their system with everybody, and they invited coaches.

我本人就是受益者：赴西班牙求学后，将所学应用于美国训练。这种现象全球比比皆是——西班牙既输出了体系，也向世界分享了经验。

I'm I'm a beneficiary myself. I went to Spain, and I learned everything I could, and I used that here in The US. And that's happened all over the world. So they've exported their system. They've shared their system with other countries.

其他国家已调整了他们的体系和方法，现在他们与西班牙的竞争更加激烈。因此，从某种意义上说，西班牙成了自身成功的受害者。而在西班牙国内，他们一直在培养数十名外国选手，这些选手成长起来并占据了世界前100名的位置。在世界前100名中，这是一场零和游戏。所以西班牙实际上是在培养自己的竞争对手，这些外国选手获得了最优秀教练的资源与精力，却损害了本土选手的利益。

And other countries have adapted their system and methods, and now they're competing better with Spain. And so they're a victim of their success in that sense. And then back home in Spain, they've been training dozens of foreign players, and those players grow up and take their spots in the top 100. It's a zero sum game in the top 100. So they're literally training their competition in Spain, and those foreign players are getting the resources and the energy of the of the best coaches to the detriment of native born players.

因此，来自当地小镇的西班牙孩子无法获得他们所需的那些资源。

So the the Spanish kid from the local town is not getting those resources that they need.

是的。顺便提几个名字，男子方面显然有卢布列夫、卡恰诺夫、德米纳乌等几位，女子方面则有卡萨金娜。

Yeah. And just to mention some of those names, you've obviously got you got Rublev. Got Kashinov. You got Dimanua, you know, on the men's side to to mention a few. You know, you got Kazakina on on the women's side.

知道吗？当我们谈论那些世界排名前100或顶尖水平的选手，他们都是在西班牙成长起来的。我其实遇到过亚历克斯·德米纳乌——当时我带着儿子和他朋友去迈阿密大师赛，有天晚上我们外出用餐，碰巧坐在他邻桌，结果聊得非常愉快。他基本上说：'我是西班牙人。'

You know? So when we're talking about players in the top 100 in the world or players that are at the top of the game that have been brought up in Spain, you know, I I bumped into Alex Di Manua. I was with my son actually and his friend. I took them to the Miami masters, and we went out for dinner one night and we kind of ended up on the table next to him, and we ended up having a great conversation. And he's basically said, I'm Spanish.

没错。虽然我热爱澳大利亚，但我一生都在阿利坎特度过。这就是我的生活——作为一名网球运动员，我本质上就是西班牙人。

Right. Yes. I I love being Australian, but I've been in Alicante all my life. That's what I do, you know. That's my my as a as a tennis player, I'm Spanish, really.

克里斯，我觉得你这点说得很好。我还想补充一个很多人可能不了解的情况：当我移居西班牙时，最让我震惊的是——虽然我们SoTL网球学院的情况不同——但西班牙网球教练的工资非常低。普通教练月薪大约在1200到1500欧元左右。

And I think your your point on that, Chris, is is very good. The the other point I'd just like to jump in on that because some people might not understand this as well. But one of the things that shocked me when I moved to Spain, and we've been different in terms of ourselves, SoTL Tennis Academy on this, but the wage of a of a tennis coach in the Spain is very low. You know? And your kind of average wage of of of a tennis coach is, you know, $1,215,100 a month.

这种模式几乎成了行业标准，现在俱乐部仍在沿用。西班牙选手们——当然不是说这是第三世界国家——但这也让我惊讶于西班牙实际资金的匮乏，大多数小镇每月仅支付250至300欧元就能涵盖全部网球训练费用。我认为这正是他们能取得如此成就的原因之一，因为他们形成了群体作战的优势。

And and that's kind of been the almost the model that was used. Right? And it's it's being used still in club tennis now, but where the players the Spanish players and again, not that it's third world country, but that did surprise me as well how little money there actually is in Spain, you know, in most of these little towns in Spain. And, you know, it would be average that they would pay 250 to €300 a month for all of their tennis. And and that's actually one of the reasons I think they've done so well as well because they've kind of hunted in packs.

教练们向来所求不多。他们的教练总是出现在各个锦标赛现场。某种程度上，大家是共同投入其中的。但如今随着学院的商业化，我确信这些教练们，正如你所说，要么离开去国外寻求更高薪的工作，要么已经转投那些开始向国际学生收取更高费用的学院职位。克里斯，我想插句话请教你的看法——关于发球技术的问题。

The coaches have not wanted for much. Their coaches are always at the tournaments. It's kind of very much everyone's in it together. But now the commercialization of the academies, I'm sure these coaches, and like you say, they're either leaving to go for these higher paid jobs outside of the country, or they've now moved into a position where the academies are starting to demand higher higher figures that these the the international students are are paying. The point I'd love to also jump in on and get your your thoughts on, Chris, is the serve.

十二年前我没在播客里提这事，但我觉得——我得查查记录——大约十二三年前我写过一篇相关博客。让我先铺垫一下，然后想听听你的专业见解。初到西班牙那几年，我去了一家俱乐部。当时我和西班牙教练在球场，我正绕着场边走，那位坐着教练喊住我：'丹，丹，坐下。他说，放松点。'

I didn't say it on a podcast because it was twelve years ago, but I think and I need to pull it up, but I think I wrote a blog on this about twelve or thirteen years ago. And I'll and and let me just set this up, and and then I want you to give us your your expertise in this. I went to a club my first couple of years when I was in Spain, and the Spanish coach, we were on court, and I was walking around the court. And the Spanish coach was sat down, and he said, Dan, Dan, sit down. He said, relax.

他们在打球。他们很放松。他接着说，你们英国教练啊，总是忙个不停。太忙了，实在太忙了。

They're playing. They're relaxed. He goes, you he said, you British coaches, you're you're always so busy. You're so busy. You're so busy.

这其实挺好的。他带着调侃的语气又说，英国教练是全世界最聪明的教练。他说，你们针对这个有训练方案，针对那个也有训练方案。

It's all it's good. He goes also and he was kind of making fun of a little bit. And he said, you British coaches are the most intelligent coaches in the world. He said, you have a drill for this. You have a drill for that.

你们有数不清的训练方案。他说，在西班牙我们只有四种训练：第一种，我站在角落，球员把球打回给我；第二种，我站在另一个角落，球员把球打回给我。

You have you have so many drills. You have so many things. He said, here in Spain, we have we have four drills. He goes, drill number one, I stand in the corner, player hits back to me. Drill number two, I stand in the other corner, player hits back to me.

第三种，我来到网前，球员把球打回给我；第四种——他不断强调这套体系多么简单。我开始观察到一个现象：这些孩子几乎从不失误，他们坚韧得像靴子皮。只要稍有压力，他们就会提升状态。

Drill number two, three, I come to the net, player hits back to me. Drill number four, and and he was really going on just how how how simple it was. Now one of the things as I started to observe was, yeah, these these kids don't miss balls. These kids are tough as boots. As soon as they're under a bit of pressure, they play up.

你知道，他们被要求更多地主动进攻而不是...但我从没在青少年赛事中见过像样的发球。看到的那些让我困惑——这根本无法在赛场上获得竞争优势。

You know, they're they're told to play up more and not you know? But I I didn't see one good serve in any junior tournament. You know? I just saw these just I was like, what, you know, what is that? You know, that's not gonna get any compact competitive advantage on the court.

而且我确实没看到太多发球后衔接进攻的训练，你知道，我们清楚比赛正朝着这个方向发展，我们看到纳达尔就是这么做的。我不清楚他与托尼叔叔分道扬镳的具体原因，但他确实注意到了问题，当他与卡洛斯·莫亚合作时，对自己的打法做出了改变，开始更注重发球后的主动进攻。当时我就有这种感觉，还为此写过博客——如果不加以重视，十年十五年后，网球运动可能会朝这个方向演变。在我看来，这也是当前存在的问题之一，训练方法未必能培养出具备这些武器的球员，比如强势发球和前几拍的处理能力，相比我们现在看到的某些球员。不知道你对此有何看法。

And I didn't really see either a lot of serve plus one work, you know, which we know that the game was starting to go into this into this place, and we saw Rafa do it. You know, I don't know the ins and outs of why he left Uncle Tony, but he he noticed, but he made a change to his game when he went with Carlos Moyer, and he started to be more offensive minded with the serve plus one. And I and I did have have the feeling at that time, and I wrote a blog on it, that if they're not careful ten, fifteen years down the line, the game could evolve here. And that seems to me to be one of the problems as well, that the training methods aren't necessarily bringing out bringing out these players with these weapons, these serves, these first couple of touches of the ball compared to some of the players that we're seeing out there right now. I don't know what your thoughts are on that.

是的。我认为关于训练方法的讨论完全合理，多年来我也一直在撰写和谈论这个话题，和你有着同样的担忧。在西班牙我目睹了同样的情况，见过太多训练课程是一个小时五十分钟的底线击球，然后象征性练一筐发球。在传统西班牙训练体系里，发球通常不是重点。

Yes. I think the discussion about the methodology is totally legitimate, and there I've also ridden and spoken for many, many years just like you had the same concerns. I've seen the same thing in Spain. I've seen many practices in Spain that are, you know, an hour and fifty minutes of ground strokes and and then hit a bucket of serves. The serve is not typically a priority in classical Spanish training.

所以你指的是这个现象，描述的正是这种情况。值得庆幸的是，西班牙也有前瞻性的教练，更现代化的网球学院正在突破这种模式。但仍有大量所谓的传统西班牙训练模式存在，过度强调防守和底线相持，较少打磨进攻武器，发球训练优先级较低。

So that's what you're alluding to. That's what you're describing. Fortunately, there are forward thinking Spanish coaches. There are more modern academies that are moving beyond that in Spain. So there are still many pockets of, I would call it, the traditional style of Spanish training, which is a lot of grinding and defense and less work on weapons, less prioritization of the serve.

所以西班牙存在两种截然不同的训练理念。不能简单笼统地说整个西班牙都在用传统方式训练。确实存在你描述的那种老派训练方法，我认为这会阻碍顶尖球员的培养。但幸运的是，比如胡安·卡洛斯·费雷罗的学院，他们在推动西班牙训练方法升级方面做得很好。安东尼奥·卡斯卡莱斯就是位极具前沿思维的教练。

So there's a dichotomy in Spain. It's not as simple as a blanket statement that all of Spain is training this way. There is enough of that old school training that you're describing that I think it is a hindrance to developing top players. But, fortunately, like, for example, at Juan Carlos Ferrero's academy, I think they do a very good job of trying to upgrade the methodology in Spain. Antonio Cascales is is very much a cutting edge thinker.

他正尝试融合新旧方法，不拘泥于过去。拉斐尔·纳达尔学院也是另一个具有前瞻性的训练基地，托尼·纳达尔的执教理念绝非传统西班牙风格——比如在纳达尔学院，球员们会重点练习抢点进攻，费雷罗的学院也是如此。

He's trying to bring together hybrid approach, not getting stuck in the past. So, I think Rafael Nadal Academy is another very forward thinking academy. Tony Nadal is is definitely not a traditional Spanish coach in his philosophy. He's very much more aggressive. For example, the players work on taking the ball early at Rafael Nadal Academy, same with Juan Carlos Ferrero.

而在某些传统西班牙学院，球员习惯退到底线后十到十五英尺处打持久战，这会限制发展。发球在西班牙是个大问题，原因复杂多样。比如托尼·纳达尔就不主张过多练习发球，因担心引发伤病，他的理念是每次训练只让球员发十五到三十个球。

So in some traditional Spanish academies, they they play ten, fifteen feet behind the baseline and just grind, and that can be a limitation. The serve is a huge issue in Spain for many different reasons. It's a very interesting topic. For example, Tony Nadal doesn't like to work on the serve that much because he's worried about injury. So he has a a philosophy that you only teach, you know, fifteen, twenty, 30 serves at a time.

过度担忧伤病可能会成为限制因素。我非常尊重托尼，但若因担心受伤而限制球员的发球训练量，会影响他们发球武器的锻造。以我个人经历来说，二十年来我多次造访西班牙，传统训练中对发球的忽视确实普遍存在。

So that can be a limitation if you're overly concerned about injury. So much respect for Tony. But if you have a philosophy that you're you're worried about injury and that limits the amount of serves that players can hit, that can affect the weapon building of the serve. And just typically I mean, I've been to Spain many, many times. I've been going to Spain for twenty years.

我要告诉你我与一位现场教练的精彩对话。他来自东欧，他说，我受不了这种训练。他们只练习击球中点吗？整天都在训练击球中点。他们不练接发球。

And I'll tell you a great conversation that I had with a coach on the ground. It's a coach from Eastern Europe, and he said, I can't stand this training. Would they only work the middle of the point? They're training the entire day on the middle of the point. They're not working on the return.

他们不练发球。也不练接发球后的第一拍衔接。这是对西班牙传统训练常见的批评。如我所说，西班牙也有开明的教练。

They're not working on the serve. They're not working on the server return plus one. And that is a very common criticism of traditional Spanish training. Like I said, there are pockets in Spain. There are there are forward thinking coaches.

有些教练正试图改进西班牙的训练体系。这确实是西班牙体系的局限——发球武器的打造。西班牙还有个有趣理念：正手是主要武器。托尼·纳达尔认为正手是比赛中最重要的一击。如果你问许多西班牙教练，他们都坚信正手是最重要的。

There are coaches who are trying to to evolve the Spanish methodology. So that is definitely a limitation of the methodology in Spain, the serve weapon building. There's also a interesting philosophy in Spain that the forehand is the primary weapon. Tony Nadal believes the forehand is the most important shot in the game. If you speak with many, many coaches in Spain, they have the belief that the forehand is the most important shot.

我可以论证正手可能是最重要的一击，但如你所知丹，全球多数教练认为发球才是比赛中最关键的。这有多重原因：避免受伤的考量、认为正手比发球重要的信念、或是教练文化的传承——他们历来注重底线击球和移动。皮亚蒂就批评西班牙过分强调步法和移动。皮亚蒂是个典范，他将西班牙所学带到意大利训练意国球员。

I can make a good case that it is it could be the most important shot, but as you know, Dan, most coaches around the world believe the serve is the most important shot in the game. But that so for a number of reasons, whether it's to avoid injury, whether it's the belief that the forehand matters more than the serve, whether it's just the the coaching history, the culture of the coaching, where they've just focused a lot on ground strokes and moving. Piatti's made that criticism of Spain that they focus too much on footwork, too much on moving. Piatti's a great example of a coach who's taken who's exported a lot that he learned from Spain and brought it to Italy, and he's using that to train Italian players. You know?

这里有很多值得探讨的内容，但我想说的是：这套训练体系的核心——我在书中提炼过——本质是合理有效的。但我多年坚持的观点是：西班牙需要革新。他们进化速度不够快，这是他们稍显落后的原因之一。他们在运动科学应用、发球武器化（如你提到的抢上升期）等方面进展不足。

So there's there's a lot of interesting stuff here, but I think what I'm trying to say is that the the methodology itself, if you look at the core, and I write about the core of the methodology in my book, I try to distill it. I think it's sound and it's good, but I make the argument, and I and I've made the argument for many, many years that that Spain needs to evolve. They haven't evolved fast enough, and that is one of that is a reason why they're falling behind somewhat. They they they haven't involved in sports science. They haven't involved in, as you're saying, the weaponization of the serve, for example, taking the ball on the rise.

西班牙许多地区硬地训练不足。虽然多数学院已增加硬地训练，但仍有训练中心90%时间在红土上练习，不学抢点进攻或上网。这些旧式训练的残余确实需要改进。我认为西班牙网协应该带头推动。

There are many pockets of areas in Spain where they don't train enough on hard courts. There are still holdouts. Most Spanish academies have been trying to implement more hard court training, but there's still pockets of good training centers that train, you know, 90% on red clay, and they don't learn to take the ball early or attack the net. So there there there are definitely, like, vestiges of the old style in Spain that needs to evolve. And I think the federation should probably take a lead.

西班牙需要有人牵头推动训练体系的升级与革新。

Somebody needs to take a lead in Spain to try to get the methodology upgraded and and evolved.

就发球而言，或许可以与美国做个比较。想想美国的体育运动，从很小的时候就开始培养很多过头动作的技能，对吧？无论是扔橄榄球、打棒球，还是某种程度上打篮球。而欧洲的体育运动，概括来说，更多是用脚在地面玩球。

In terms of in terms of the serve, and maybe this is a bit of a comparison with, America. If we think of the American sport, there's a lot of overhead skill from a, you know, from a from a young age. Right? Whether it's throwing an American football, whether it's, you know, baseball, basketball to a degree. Whereas, I guess, the European sports are all played a little bit more with, you know, ball ball on the ground as a as a bit of a generalization.

你认为这种文化差异有多大影响？多年来我们显然看到很多发球强劲的美国选手，现在甚至那些身高不占优势的青少年选手也往往有非常快速的手臂动作。你觉得这种来自其他运动的文化因素占多大比重？你认为在这方面能弥补多少差距？

How much do you think that contributes? Because I guess over the years, we've obviously seen a lot of big serving American players. You even see it now, even your your t f o's who maybe aren't the tallest, you know, but tend to have very quick arms. So how much do you think comes also just from that kind of cultural the other sports? You know, how much of ground can be made up from from that, do you think?

完全正确。这对教学方法有着强烈的文化影响，绝对是重要因素。西班牙是足球文化，他们在很多方面像训练足球运动员那样训练网球选手。他们花很多时间练习移动和站位，而不是得分。

Absolutely. That that is a strong cultural influence on the teaching methodology, so that's absolutely a big influence. It's a soccer culture. And in many ways, in Spain, they sort of train tennis like soccer players. They work a lot on movement, a lot on on positioning, and less on scoring.

明白吗？在西班牙几十年里，发球被视为开始得分的手段。在六七十年代的经典西班牙网球中，发球基本上是个站位球。你把球发进去，也许打个外角，然后用正手开始得分。这种情况已经有所改变，但也没有完全改变。

You know? For many decades in Spain, the serve was seen as a way to start the point. I mean, in classic Spanish tennis, in the sixties and seventies, the serve was basically a positioning shot. You get the serve in, maybe you kick it wide, and then you start to point with your forehand. And so that has evolved, and it hasn't.

所以情况很复杂。在西班牙现在不是单一模式了。有年轻一代教练正在努力改进教学方法，同时也还存在坚持传统训练方式的教练群体，他们的方法可能有点过时。在某些方面仍然有效，比如培养良好的底线稳定性和移动能力，但对现代比赛可能不是最优选择。

So you it's complex. In Spain, it's not just a one shot deal now. You have you have younger coaches. You have a new generation of coaches who are are trying to really evolve the the methodology, and you you still have pockets of traditional coaches who who who are training in in a style that probably is a little bit outdated. It's still effective at some things, like developing good consistency in baseline and movement, but it's probably not the optimal style for the modern game.

所以这个说法有一定道理，但我觉得...

So there there is some truth to that, but I think that's

是啊。

Yeah.

它的影响比人们想说的要小。人们想把方法论与衰落联系起来。而对我来说，我认为大部分的衰落就像你说的那样，是商业化，是方法论在世界各地的输出。西班牙教练很多时候选择这样做是因为他们想赚更多的钱。他们想养家糊口。

It's it's less of an impact than people wanna say. People wanna link the methodology with the decline. And for me, I believe that most of the decline is just like you were saying, the commercialization, the exporting of the of the methodology around the world. Spanish coaches choosing many times because they wanna make more money. They wanna support their families.

他们不想拿你描述的那种工资。所以他们接收外国学生或者去其他国家工作。你真的不能为此责怪他们。他们只是想谋个好生计。你知道，我是个教练。

They don't wanna make the wage that you were describing. And so they they take on foreign students or they they take a job in another country. You can't really blame them for that. They're just trying to make a good living. You know, I'm a coach.

我完全理解这一点。但这基本上侵蚀了西班牙网球的核心，因为他们需要本土球员——你需要投入资源和精力。最好的教练，最好的前球员，他们需要重新投资于基层球员，那些本土的西班牙球员。而他们一直没有这样做，多年后我们终于看到了这种做法的后果。我早在2015年2月、2016年2月就开始写这方面的文章了。

I I totally understand that. So but that basically eats away at at the the core of of Spanish tennis because they need native play you you need to to put your resources and energy. The best coaches, the best former players, they need to reinvest in the grassroots players, the the native Spanish players. And they haven't been doing that, and we're finally seeing seeing the result of that after many years. I've been writing about this as far back as, I think, 02/2015, 02/2016.

我有追溯到那么早的文章，当时我非常担忧。我担忧方法论的问题。方法论是真实存在的。那是一个合理的辩论和问题。但对我来说，我看到了二十年来学院商业化在地面上的巨大转变。

I have articles going back, that far where I was very concerned. I was concerned about the methodology. The methodology is real. That's a legitimate debate and and issue. But for me, I've seen a dramatic shift in in terms of the commercialization of the academies on the ground going back twenty years.

我想我第一次去西班牙是在2006年2月。大约二十年前。商业化程度大幅增长，价格也上涨了。我是说，许多地方的学院训练价格几乎翻倍，比我以前去西班牙时高多了。那里曾经是一个可以找到价格合理训练的地方，但现在如果你想去西班牙训练，这非常难找了。

I think my first trip to Spain was 02/2006. It's been about twenty years. And, just a dramatic growth in, basically commercialization, an increase in prices. I mean, prices of of academy trains almost doubled in many places since back in when I used to go to Spain. It used to be a place you could get some reasonably priced training, and that that's very hard to find now if you're if you're looking to train in Spain.

像拉斐尔·纳达尔学院这样的地方，他们的训练营每周收费超过2000欧元。你知道，这与西班牙过去的情况相比是一笔惊人的金额。我们之前谈到了财务方面的问题。过去，你每周花800美元、900美元就能在很多这样的学院得到非常好的训练，两名球员共用一个球场。现在很多地方都变了。

There are places like Rafael Nadal Academy who, charge over €2,000 a week for training at their camps. You know, this is a incredible amount of money compared to the way it used to be in Spain. We were talking about the the financial aspects. You know, you used to be able to train for $800 a week, $900 a week in a lot of these academies, and you get very, very good training, two players per court. That's changed in in many places.

就像我说的，你仍然可以四处寻找那些价格较低、更经济的训练机会。所以，这里有很多因素在起作用。西班牙的资源，所有这些优秀教练和前职业球员的集体智慧，基本上都流向了非本土球员。那些球员进入了前100名，而西班牙的孩子没有，因为前100名只有100个位置。你有20位来自西班牙的优秀教练，他们与20名外国球员合作，却不与西班牙球员合作，这会在未来产生连锁反应。

Like I said, you can still travel around, try to find pockets of of less, in a more inexpensive training. So, there there's just a a number of of factors here at play. The resources of Spain, all of the wisdom, like, the collective wisdom of all these amazing coaches and former pros is basically going towards the the non native players. And those players get a spot in the top 100, and the Spanish kids don't because there's only a 100 spots. You have 20 amazing coaches from Spain and they work with 20 foreign players and they don't work with the Spanish player that that has repercussions down the road.

你知道吗？

You know?

我想知道，到底有什么这么有趣？我2010年2月搬到西班牙，不知道你有多关注英国网球。但如果你在英国工作，没有一天不会听到人们谈论LTA（英国草地网球协会）。对吧？就是英国网球联合会。

I wanna, know what's so interesting? I moved to Spain in 02/2010, and I don't know how much you follow British tennis. But if you work in The UK, a day will not go by where you will not have a conversation about the LTA. Yeah? The British Tennis Federation.

不论你是俱乐部里的成年人，还是在指导青少年，或是在参加锦标赛，英国人对这个联合会——一个资金雄厚、拥有大满贯赛事的联合会——有种执念。而西班牙网球有许多我们钦佩之处，我稍后会谈到，因为确实有很多值得我们欣赏的地方，我个人也非常感激能成为其中的一小部分。十五年来，我从未与人讨论过西班牙网球联合会，一次都没有。我甚至从未考虑过他们，而且我一直认为这是件好事，原因如下——虽然现在情况可能有些矛盾，可能需要联合会或某些人出面整合资源，因为我一直坚信：是金子总会发光。

Whether you are an adult at the club, whether you are coaching juniors, whether you are at a tournament, there's an obsession in Britain about the federation, a very rich federation, a grand slam federation. One of the beauties I, you know, and I wanna get into our things that we admire about Spanish tennis in a minute because there's so much that we do admire, and I certainly do, and I'm very grateful to kinda be a small part of that. I've never had one conversation about the Spanish Tennis Federation in fifteen years. Not one. I've never considered them, and I've only ever seen that as a positive, and I'll tell you why, which is a little bit now contradictory to where maybe now it's got to, which is where maybe now the federation or something somebody needs to come in and and bring this together because what my belief always was is I believe that the cream rises to the top.

我认为由于西班牙的体系运作方式和竞争结构非常完善，赛事数量庞大。赛事多意味着球员多，球员多又催生更多教练，进而俱乐部和学院也更多，竞争更激烈，更多人努力把事情做对。这让我想起在英格兰常见的情况——教练可能很懒散，他们从不现场观看球员比赛，从不。

And I think because of the way that the the Spanish kind of system has worked and the and the competitive structure is so good and there's so many tournaments. So because there's so many tournaments, there's so many players, and because there's so many players, there's then more coaches. And then because there's more coaches, there's more clubs, there's more academies, and there's more competition, there's more people that are trying to do it right. So then I actually what I see, and I used to see this in England all the time, coaches could be quite lazy because it was like and they never watch their players in competition. Never.

明白吗？那里盛行按小时收费的教学文化。而在西班牙，我特别欣赏的是这里完全不同——这是种生活方式的文化。教练们全身心投入其中。

You know? It was very much an hourly rate lesson giving culture. Whereas in Spain, one thing I've absolutely loved to see is it's not. It's a it's a lifestyle culture. You know, the coaches are involved.

你看，就算不是世界顶级赛事，场边也挤满了关注球员的教练，他们认真观察、现场指导、研究战术。我觉得这种完整的生态系统简直不可思议——全方位的责任感迫使你必须做好工作，否则球员就会去别处，毕竟选择太多了。我始终相信这种环境自然造就强者，让真金得以闪耀。但有趣的是，现在情况似乎有点微妙——西班牙球员可能正错失某些机会。

You know, they're they're just it just it might not be the biggest tournament in the world, but it's packed with coaches watching the players and really into it and coach them at the side of the court and working on their games and doing all of these things. And I just thought that whole ecosystem was has just been incredible. This accountability across the board, you have to do a good job of why the players go elsewhere because there's so many other places to play. And I've just believed that that is just built and the cream has risen to the top. Now what's interesting, I guess, about this now is that, you know, maybe it's reached a bit of a a bit of a funny place now where the Spanish players aren't getting maybe the opportunities.

就像你指出的那些关键问题，他们正被高价挤出这个体系。但我甚至不知道联合会由谁组成、拥有什么资源，也不清楚谁该真正负责这些——在一个生活了十五年的国家竟如此陌生，听起来很荒谬吧？你能为我们解惑吗？

They are being outpriced from it, you know, all of the great points that you've made. But I wouldn't know who to who I wouldn't know who the federation are. I wouldn't know what resource they have, and I wouldn't actually know who's really responsible for that. And that sounds crazy after fifteen years of living in the country. Can you enlighten us on that?

你知道西班牙网球联合会是什么吗？他们是谁？他们有什么

You know, what what is the Spanish Tennis Federation? Who are they? Do they have any

是的。

Yeah.

他们有什么吗？他们真的持什么立场？

Do they have anything? Do they what's their position, really?

没错。关于这个话题，埃米利奥·桑切斯和我建议感兴趣的听众可以去看看——他去年给西班牙网球联合会以及西班牙各俱乐部和教练写了一封公开信，发表在他的博客上。埃米利奥·桑切斯是西班牙著名教练兼前球员，这封信写得非常精彩。

Yes. So this is something that Emilio Sanchez and I would encourage the listeners if they're interested in this topic. He he wrote an open letter to the Spanish Federation and and to Spanish clubs and coaches last year. It's on his blog. Emilio Sanchez is a well known Spanish coach and former player, and it's a wonderful letter.

实际上我把这封信收录了。埃米利奥为我书的其中一篇序言执笔。他在信中谈到如何请求西班牙网球联合会（简称RFET）采取行动，加强与西班牙各地俱乐部的合作。因为西班牙既有俱乐部体系，也有私人训练学院体系。

I actually included the letter. Emilio wrote he wrote one of the forwards from my book. And Emilio talked about how he he asked he requested that the Spanish Federation, which is called the RFET, take action and and try to collaborate more with the the clubs across Spain. Because there there are there's a club system across Spain, and then there's a private academy system. Yep.

所以他呼吁联合会介入，正是基于我们描述的这种现状——大部分资源流向外国选手，而许多本土西班牙选手因费用过高被拒之门外，或无法获得西班牙教练集体智慧本可提供的关注。去年他发起了这项倡议，但我不清楚后续进展。我与RFET联系不多，只知道他们资金有限，在巴塞罗那设有一个高性能训练中心。

So he he requested that they they they get involved because because of the situation that we were describing, the situation where most of the resources are going towards foreign players and and many native born Spanish players are getting priced out or they're not getting the attention that they could have from the collective wisdom of these of Spanish coaches. So he has called for that last year, and I don't know if there's been action on that. I don't have a great connection with the RFET. I know they have smaller funding. I know they have a high performance center in Barcelona.

他们确实偶尔会接收球员进行全日制训练，但规模很小。我敢说其预算与英国草地网球协会相比微不足道。不过我觉得你提到的这种有机发展模式很有意思。如果这种方式行之有效当然很好，但联合会其实拥有可以施加影响的杠杆来提供帮助。

They do sometimes take and train players full time, but it's a very small operation. I don't think it it I'm sure the budget is pales in comparison to the LTA. But I think it's interesting what you say that you you like this organic approach to development. And, certainly, I think if that's working, it's wonderful. But, a federation can has levers that that effect that they can use to try to help.

我们之前讨论的是建立一个从未来赛到挑战赛再到ATP或WTA的优秀赛事体系。这确实至关重要。联合会在构建赛事结构中扮演着重要角色，因此这是个非常关键的职能。

We were talking about setting up a good tournament structure from futures to challengers to ATP or WTA. But that's really important. The federation plays a large role in setting up the structure of tournaments. So that that's a very important role.

肯定很重要。

Must be important.

是的。我认为联合会可以尝试激励教练们优先指导西班牙球员而非外国选手。他们或许能通过经济手段鼓励那些经验丰富的职业教练——目前他们都在培养外国人才——将资源重新投入到西班牙球员身上。看看胡安·卡洛斯·费雷罗的榜样。

Yeah. So I think that, the federation could try to play a role in incentivizing coaches to work with Spanish players rather than foreign players. There's probably something they could do financially to try to incentivize those very experienced professional coaches. They're all working with foreign talent to try to reinvest it in Spanish players. Look what Juan Carlos Ferrero did.

绝佳的范例。要知道，他本可以执教任何人。他曾在巡回赛中指导兹维列夫，后来却辞去指导外国球员的工作，转而去培养一名15岁少年。这真是个了不起的故事。

Wonderful example. You know, he could have coached anyone. He was coaching Zverev on the tour, and he he left that job coaching a foreign player. And he went to work with a 15 year old. It's an amazing story.

如果听众中有看过网飞新推出的卡洛斯·阿尔卡拉斯纪录片系列，那制作得实在太棒了。剧情引人入胜，讲述了团队背后的故事以及阿尔卡拉斯当前面临的压力。虽然是个非常有趣的题材，但纪录片本身也完成得极为出色。胡安·卡洛斯·费雷罗放弃了指导外国球员的机会，将全部知识、精力和时间都倾注在阿尔卡拉斯身上。

And if any of the listeners have been able to watch the new Netflix series on on Carlos Alcaraz, it's just wonderful. It's wonderfully done, very engaging. And it talks about the team and the backstory and how much the pressures that Alcaraz is facing right now. And it's a very interesting story, but it's very well done documentary. But Juan Carlos Ferrero left from working with a a foreign player and and invested all of his knowledge, energy, time to Alcaraz.

看看这成果。对西班牙而言这是惊人的成就。如果当初他没有这么做——谁知道呢？他本可能决定只与那些外国球员合作。若真如此，现在我们或许根本看不到阿尔卡拉斯，因为缺少他的存在，媒体和评论界的批评声将会铺天盖地。

And look at the result. Amazing result for Spain. And if he hadn't done that, you know, he could've maybe he could've who knows? He could've he could've decided, I'm just gonna work with these foreign guys. And if he hadn't done that, maybe we wouldn't wouldn't even have Alcaraz right now because, without Alcaraz, the news and the the commentate of the criticism of that would be would be blaring.

要知道，届时将涌现更多批评者，因为阿尔卡拉斯的成功某种程度上掩盖了问题。埃米利奥·桑切斯称之为'制造幻象'——掩盖了西班牙网球体系底层人才匮乏的事实。因此我认为，联合会能否通过某种方式激励教练？或是与教练合作甄别年轻球员，让他们得到西班牙资深教练的指导？或许还可以与网球学院协作？这里存在深刻的讽刺，正如埃米利奥在文中坦承的那样，他的洞察力总是如此敏锐。

You know, you it would be the there would be a lot of more critics out there because Alcaraz sort of covered up. Emilio Sanchez calls it he he created illusion to cover up the the fact that we have they have no depth down below. Alcaraz's success sort of covered up some flaws in the Spanish system here. So I think that, you know, that's an important aspect that could the federation incentivize coaches somehow or collaborate with coaches or work to identify young players and get them in the hands of experienced Spanish coaches, you know, and try to work with these academies? There's a deep irony, and Emilio is so insightful, he admits it in his own post.

他在自己的文章中承认了这一点。他说，我有罪。他说，我的学院正是我所描述的那种情况。他表示，二十、二十五年来，我们Emilio Sanchez学院自己也一直专注于外国球员。所以他承认他是在自责，你知道，这是一封非常精彩、引人深思的信。

He admits it in his own essay. He says, I'm guilty of it. He says, my academies are guilty of exactly what I'm describing. He said, for for twenty, twenty five years, we've been focusing on foreign players ourselves at the Emilio Sanchez Academy. So he admitted that he's he's he blames himself as what you know, he so it it was a wonderful, very interesting letter that he wrote.

他把这封信发布在了自己的博客上。是的，这种情况在全国各地都在发生，那些最初可能更关注西班牙球员并培养职业选手的学院，比如Bruguera学院，它们变成了商业机构。它们不再是你所说的那种充满激情的教练培养本土人才的地方。

He posted it on his blog. So, yeah, that's been happening all over the country that that the the academies that initially probably focused more on Spanish players and created professionals, Bruguera Academy is another one. You know, they they they they became businesses. You know? They they they they became less of what you were talking about, as just passionate coaches working to develop native talent.

它们变成了以盈利为目的的企业，从外国球员身上能赚到比普通西班牙家庭更多的钱。这就是发生的事情。也许在十五、二十年前，应该有人有远见地说，嘿。

They became businesses that they're they're looking to make a profit, and they could make more money from foreign players than the typical Spanish family. So that's what happened. You know? That's that's where they went with that. Probably at some somebody should have had depressions, the foresight fifteen, twenty years ago to say, hey.

如果我们都这么做，二十年后，西班牙将没有一位世界前100的球员。我们会看到越来越少的世界前100球员。也许有人应该

If we all do this, in twenty years, we're gonna end up with no top 100 players for Spain. You know? We're gonna end up with fewer top 100 players. Probably someone should have

但问题在于，克里斯，尽管这确实是个问题，而且这里会变得非常有趣。我认为这是一场引人入胜的讨论，因为在我看来，网球协会的更多参与是为了促进，无论是促进机会、环境，还是比赛结构。我曾对你说，我感觉西班牙的比赛比以前少了。今年我看了ITF男子职业巡回赛，西班牙有27站，意大利有26站，看起来他们也在努力解决这个问题，试图促进发展。

But the problem there, Chris the the problem there, though, and this is where this is where it's gonna be really interesting. I I I think this is a fascinating conversation because having the more involvement from a federation in my opinion, a federation is is is there to facilitate, you know, facilitate whatever it might be, facilitate an opportunity, facilitate environment, you know, facility certainly tournament structure. And I said to you, my feeling was there was less tournaments in Spain than they used to be. I've looked at it this year, ITF pro circuit men's events, 27 compared to 26 in Italy. So it seems like that's something that they're trying to get on top of as well, but they're trying to facilitate it.

真正有趣的部分在于，一旦协会介入过多，一旦人们开始有过高的期望，这就是我喜欢那种有机发展的地方，人们有责任感，做自己的事情。如果你有一群愤世嫉俗的工作人员，他们开始反对，甚至变得有点理所当然，我不想只把LT归到这一类，因为我觉得澳大利亚、美国可能也一样。我认为大满贯协会才是真正的巨头。实际上，我想知道，为什么俱乐部的工作人员要在乎西班牙是否有15位世界前100的球员。

Now the the bit that is really interesting is once federations get too involved and once people start to have too much expectation, and this is the bit that I liked about the organic bit and the fact that there's accountability and people are doing their own things. If you've got a cynical workforce who who start to almost go against and then have get a bit entitled and and I don't wanna just throw this the LT under this because I think it's the same probably in Australia. It's probably the same in America. I think the big powerhouse is the grand slam federations. I actually think why would somebody working in a club give a shit if the Spain have 15 top 100 players in the world.

这就是问题所在，因为这让人觉得愤世嫉俗，教练会开始想，我在这里拼命工作，参加这些比赛，做了所有事情，然后球员被协会从我这里带走，送到这里那里，接着就会产生嫉妒和破裂的关系。实际上，整个体系可能很快就会崩溃。根据我过去十五年的经验，看到这些教练真正关心10队赢得Cadiz团体锦标赛，是一件非常美好的事情。Cadiz是安达卢西亚的一个省份，这才是最重要的。

That's where it gets to because it almost feels cynical and because that coach then starts to go, well, I'm working my nuts off here, I'm going to these tournaments, I'm doing all of these things. But then the player gets taken off me by the federation and gets moved into this place and gets moved into that place, and then you get jealousies and you get broken relationships. And and actually, the whole thing can fall down very fast. And, like, just from my experience in the last fifteen years, there's been something quite beautiful just about seeing these coaches really, really care about the 10 team winning the Cadiz team championships. Cadiz is, you know, a province within Andalothea, and that's what what it's about.

而对我来说，这实际上也是西班牙的魅力所在。那里确实有某种特质，你知道吗？我们学院曾有个西班牙孩子。前几天我和他聊过，是个不错的球员。了解UTR的人可能会说，他大概有10级UTR水平，15岁。

And that, for me, actually, is the beauty of Spain as well. It's so it is there's something, you know and and we we had we had a Spanish kid at our academy. I spoke to him the other day. Good player. Probably for people that know UTRs, you'll be like a 10 UTR, 15 years old.

我问他：'所以你在考虑去美国上大学吗？'他说：'不，我为什么要去？为什么要离开西班牙？'当时我脑子里就在想——这话接下来要怎么接？

And I said, so you're thinking about going to US college? And he said, no. Why would I do that? Why would I leave Spain? And then and then in my head, I'm going, well, where's where's this going?

实际上他既没有成为职业网球选手的野心，也不打算上大学。他打网球纯粹出于热爱，会为安达卢西亚锦标赛兴奋不已，那种地方性赛事。但在西班牙人看来，赢得省级或地区级赛事是真正的荣耀，有时候这就足够了。我想这也正是许多教练坚持的动力，是他们信奉的理念。我不确定他们是否真在考虑培养世界前100的选手。

He actually didn't have any ambition to be a professional tennis player or to go to college. He plays tennis because he loves playing tennis, and he gets really excited for the Andalothian championships, and it's really localized. But for him to there's real honor there's real honor in Spain to win your province or your regional regional level events, and sometimes that's kind of enough as well. And I think that's what gets a lot of the coaches going and what the coaches have bought into. I'm not sure they're necessarily thinking about top 100 bit.

所以网球联合会如何介入并参与其中，同时又不失掉这种魔力，我认为这很有意思。因为我显然见过其他国家类似情况如何急转直下。

So how the federation comes in and starts getting involved without losing a bit of that magic, I think, is interesting as well because I've I've obviously I've seen with some other nations how that can go downhill quite fast.

是的。我认为埃米利奥的建议是让球员继续留在私立学院，联合会不直接接管，但提供部分资金来帮助西班牙球员。

Yes. I think what Emilio is suggesting is that they collaborate the the players would stay in the private academies. So the federation wouldn't take them, but they would provide some funding to try to help the Spanish players.

没错。

Yes.

我还想补充一点，西班牙网协掌控着教练认证体系。他们可以通过这个让所有教练接受统一的教学法。我们之前讨论过教学法需要革新，这正是西班牙皇家网球联合会可以发挥作用的地方——推动教学方法的升级和现代化，让基层教练不断提升技能和理念。这可能是他们另一个重要职能。

And I would like to make the other point that the federation controls the certification in Spain. So they can do things to get all of the coaches on board with a common methodology. We were talking about how the methodology is an issue, that they need to evolve the methodology. So this is a place where the RFET could play a role to try to upgrade and modernize the Spanish teach teaching methods so that the coaches in the grassroots are evolving their skills and their philosophies. So that that could be another role.

我认为这是联合会可以发挥的重要作用，特别是那些负责教练认证的联合会。另一个有趣的观点是，虽然不想削弱你关于自然发展的论点，但西班牙这种对网球的自发热情实际上源自佛朗哥时期的体系。佛朗哥在六七十年代掌控着西班牙网球联合会。我在书中详细探讨过这段历史，确实非常引人入胜。

I think that's an important role that federations can play, especially federations that license or certify coaches. I think another interesting point, not not to, undermine your argument about organic, but the idea of this organic, this passion in Spain, it actually came from a system of Franco. Franco was the federation in the sixties and seventies. And Franco I I talked about this history in my book. It's really fascinating.

独裁者佛朗哥掌控着国家的所有经济命脉，而他恰好是个网球迷。他热爱网球，崇拜桑塔纳——曼诺洛·桑塔纳。因此他认为网球可以成为西班牙无产阶级的理想运动。

The dictator Franco, you know, he had control of all the economic levers in the country, and he happened to be a tennis fan. He loved tennis. He loved Santana. He loved Manolo Santana. And so he felt that tennis would be a great sport for the proletariat in Spain.

他认为网球应该成为全民运动，而不仅仅是巴塞罗那精英阶层（比如巴塞罗那网球俱乐部会员）的特权。于是在六七十年代末，他系统性地投资建设了遍布乡村地区和巴塞罗那郊外的俱乐部网络。实际上，他为这种'自然生长'奠定了基础——这并非完全自发，而是来自政府和联合会的精心规划。

He felt that tennis could be a wonderful sport for everybody, not just the rich elite clubs in bars the people that were members of, you know, Barcino or the the rich clubs in Barcelona. So he actually made a systematic investment in the late sixties and seventies to try to build up a this club system all in the rural areas and in places outside of Barcelona. And so he, in fact, laid the groundwork for this organic growth. So it wasn't purely organic. It was actually a well thought out investment basically from, you know, basically from a federation, from the government.

这为后来网球运动的爆发式发展埋下伏笔。1975年佛朗哥政权倒台后，西班牙迎来民主时代。我认为现在这些教练展现的热情，某种程度上是对自由的拥抱与网球运动的结合——这群突然获得自由的人民，得以从事佛朗哥当年资助推广的网球事业。他通过财政支持建立俱乐部体系，将网球福音传遍全国。你描述的现象，某种程度上是解放后的工人阶级以网球为荣的表现，他们为自己新生的民主国家感到骄傲。

It laid the groundwork for this explosion in tennis. And so in 1975, Franco fell from power, and Spain became a democracy. And so I think part of the passion that you're seeing in a lot of those coaches is, like, this embrace of freedom, this this combined with tennis. Like, this is a free people that were able to pursue a living in this great sport of tennis that Franco underwrote, basically, financially underwrote this this, this this this club system, and he spread the gospel of tennis all throughout the country. And so I think part of what you're describing is a a liberated people, a liberated, working class, who tennis was, something that they could enjoy and be proud of for their country, their newly liberated country, a democracy.

从1975年到九十年代初（1992年奥运会前夕），西班牙经历了惊人的经济增长。奥运会的筹备带来大量基建投资，其中就包括网球基础设施。所以你能看到两条投资脉络：佛朗哥时期的投入和奥运会的投资。

And Spain went through an incredible period of economic growth from 1975 until the early nineties, leading up to the 1990, '92, Olympics. There was incredible investment in Spain for the Olympics. So the Olympics played a big role in in creating an infrastructure for Spanish tennis. There was a lot of investment related to the Olympics. So you see this timeline of investment from Franco and investment in the Olympics.

而接下来的演变是——很遗憾——教练们开始追求更高收入。他们不再满足于你描述的那种状态，看到了金钱的诱惑。网球学院也嗅到了商机。

And I see the the next the next evolution is that the coaches, unfortunately, are they wanted more money. They wanted to make a better living. You know, they weren't just happy enough with what you're describing. They saw dollar signs. Academy saw dollar signs.

所有人都看到了发财机会。我曾多次造访胡安·卡洛斯·费雷罗的网球学院，那里原本是个相对小众的训练场所。大多数人会选择巴塞罗那，去阿利坎特那边还得额外奔波。

Everybody saw dollar signs. I've been to Juan Carlos Ferrero's Academy many times. Used to be a a relatively place to go train. Not most people would go to Barcelona. It's an extra trip to get down to Alicante area.

所以很多人会选择留在巴塞罗那。自从阿尔卡拉斯成名后，你甚至无法在他们的暑期项目中获得一个名额。他们已经被预订一空。你打电话过去，他们只会说抱歉。

So a lot of people would stay in Barcelona. Ever since Alcaraz, made it, you can't even get a spot in their summer program. They're booked out. You know, you call. They say, sorry.

我们有个等候名单。你甚至不能来和我们一起训练。明白吗？这就是当你在西班牙培养出一位优秀球员的效应——早在本世纪初、九十年代末开始涌现大批优秀选手时，就有人愿意花大价钱来和他们训练，我并不因此责怪他们。

We have a waiting list. You can't even come train with us. You know? So this is the effect of when when you produce a good player in in Spain in the early thousands, in the late nineties where it started to produce so many great players. They had people who wanted to come and pay a lot of money to train with them, and I don't begrudge them for that.

这些人是在经营生意。他们要养家糊口。我永远不会为此指责谁，但这确实是正在发生的现实。现在有些网球学院每周收费2000欧元、1600欧元。而如果你问——我曾与路易斯·布鲁格拉共事学习很久——

They're These are people that are running businesses. They wanna support their families. I'll never begrudge someone for that, but that is definitely a reality of what happened. You know, now you have academies charging €2,000 a week, €1,600 a week. And if you asked, you know, I talked to I studied with, Luis Bruguer a lot.

他觉得收取如此高昂的费用简直疯狂，完全无法理解。他说这比我们常规收费贵了一倍。明白吗？

If he he thinks it's insane, you know, to charge that much money. He can't even wrap his mind around it. You know? He's like, it's twice as much as we normally charge. You know?

所以对那些老派教练、你描述的那些充满激情的教练来说，如今的西班牙网球界是个全新世界。非常商业化，在很多地方完全是金钱驱动。这确实损害了西班牙的网球发展，就像我们之前讨论的——

So to the old to the old time coaches, the passionate coaches that that you're describing, this is a brand new world in Spain. It's a very commercial. It's a very money driven world in a lot of places. And that that has definitely hurt the development in Spain. And it's it's like we talked about.

它剥夺了许多西班牙孩子的发展机会。

It's taken away a lot of opportunities from from the the Spanish kids.

你觉得你描述的情况——在我脑海中几乎可以总结为卡洛斯·阿尔卡拉斯与拉斐尔·纳达尔的对比。因为纳达尔代表着相对朴素的成长环境，紧密的家庭纽带。我知道卡洛斯也有类似背景，但细究起来，虽然托尼叔叔不算暴君，可拉法年轻时接受的训练方式近乎独裁。纳达尔象征着刻苦、重复训练、纪律和特定生活方式。而最近卡洛斯公开表示拒绝这种模式。

And and do you think that what you're describing almost in my head, almost there's a bit of a summarizing in this in terms of Carlos Alcaraz versus Rafael Nadal. Because Rafael Nadal represents that, you know, quite modest upbringing, you know, a tight knit family. I know Carlos has that as well, but, you know, quite, when you look into it, not that Tony was a was a bully, but it was a pretty dictatorship way way of working when when Rafa was young. You know, Nadal very much represents hard works, reps, discipline, living life in in a certain way. And recently, we've had Carlos come out and say, no.

不，不。我我不是拉斐尔·纳达尔。你知道，我是我是卡洛斯·阿尔卡拉斯。当卡洛斯·费雷罗第一次站出来说，我开始可能认为卡洛斯不具备成为最伟大球员之一的潜质，因为他看起来确实——我是说，我今天在罗马刚见到他。

No. No. I I ain't Rafael Nadal. You know, I'm I'm Carlos Alcaraz. And when Carlos Ferrero's come out and said, for the first time, I'm actually starting to maybe think Carlos doesn't have what it takes to go on to be one of the greatest players because he does seem to I mean, I've just seen him here today in Rome.

他是个讨人喜欢的年轻人。你看，他他经过时会跟每个人打招呼。纳达尔则是那种走过时让人感到有些压迫感的人。而阿尔卡拉斯简直像个路过的小男孩。

He's a delightful young man. You know, he he walks past. He says hello to everybody. You know, Nadal was this kind of quite intimidating man that walked past. And Alcaraz is almost like a little boy walking past.

他他喜欢派对。他更喜欢享受那种我们原本不认为网球运动员会涉足的生活方式，你知道，那些形象表现。但就在我们讨论的过程中，我不禁想，我们是否正在见证西班牙体系从这种纯粹纪律性的模式转变——‘这就是你的全部’。

He's he likes to party. He likes to live a bit more of that sort of that sort of world that we weren't necessarily, led to believe a tennis player could do, you know, and those those representations. But I just just as we go through this conversation, I can't help thinking, you know, are we we're moving. Maybe the Spanish system is moving from this, like, this just discipline. That's what you do.

这就是你过去所做的。而现在阿尔卡拉斯正在改写规则。记得四五年前在马贝拉见到他时，他刚参加ATP250赛事，你能看到角落里的费雷罗一脸‘天啊’。

That's what you do to now. Alcaraz is shot making. You know? Like, I remember what seeing him in Marbella about four, five years ago. He was playing the ATP two fifty when he was coming through, and you could see Ferrero in the corner just like, oh my god.

他在干什么？为什么要打那种正手？但他从击球中获得了纯粹的快乐。你看，差异如此之多。这是否公平地说，这些反映了西班牙体系或网球文化正在发生的真实变化？

What is he doing? Why is he going for that forehand? But he gets pure joy in the shot making. You know, there seems to be so many differences. Is it fair to say that those are representing the reality of maybe what is happening within the Spanish system or the or the or the Spanish tennis culture?

确实有可能。你提出了一个非常有趣的观点，可能看到了代际更替。但未来西班牙球员是否愿意像纳达尔那样牺牲仍有待商榷——这这正是我书中关于‘苦难’的章节。甘愿承受痛苦与牺牲是西班牙精神的核心部分，也是托尼·纳达尔灌输给拉法的哲学与品格。

It it it definitely could be. I think you make a very interesting point that those you see that may perhaps a generational shift. I think it's still up for debate whether the future Spanish players will have the the willingness to sacrifice like Nadal did, and that that that is a chapter in my book on, suffering. You know, the willingness to suffer and sacrifice is a huge part of the Spanish ethos, a huge part of the philosophy and character. Tony Nadal definitely imparted that on Rafa.

我认为阿尔卡拉斯也付出了很多艰辛努力，但你暗示的是：他的团队明显很担忧，他自己也说感到巨大压力和‘义务’（他用了这个词），巡回赛的各种压力让他不再那么享受比赛。我看到胡安·卡洛斯·费雷罗的言论时，第一反应是这段师徒关系可能不会持续太久——因为他是位极其严肃、标准极高的教练。他明确表示，如果觉得阿尔卡拉斯没有全力追求成为历史最佳之一，他就会离开。

And I I think Alcraz has put in a lot of suffering and hard work, but what you're alluding to is I think there's definitely some concerns in his team that he said that he's feeling a lot of a lot of pressure, and he's feeling a lot of obligation. He used the word obligation, all of all of the pressures of the tour, and he's not enjoying it as much. The team is clearly very concerned. I also saw that quote from Juan Carlos Herrera, and the first thing I thought was he may not stay in this relationship much longer because he is a very serious coach with very high standards. If he feels that, and he said so as much, if he feels that Alcaraz is not, you know, fully dedicated to being one of the best players of all time, he said he will leave.

你知道，他看到他他说他会离开。所以我觉得他教练引用的那句话相当引人注目。是的，阿尔卡拉斯可能是西班牙新一代的孩子。我们还得拭目以待。我不确定你是否能扩展这一点并笼统地概括文化，但确实存在一个问题：西班牙球员还会像过去那样愿意吃苦吗？

You know, he see he he said he would leave. So I thought that was a pretty striking quote, the one that you referenced from his coach. So, yeah, Alcarez could be the new generation of Spanish kid. We'll have to wait and see. I I'm not I'm not sure if you can expand that and broad brush the culture, but certainly there is the question, are Spanish players going to be as willing to suffer as they were in the past?

再往前追溯一代以上，就像我们说的，这是一个从独裁统治中走出来的国家。人民曾受压迫，生活在严酷的统治下。许多最新一代的年轻人，他们没有那样的经历。他们与那段历史毫无联系，不知道那是什么感觉。他们不明白那种程度的苦难意味着什么。

And going back more than a generation, like we were saying, that this is a a country that emerged from a dictatorship. The people were oppressed, and they lived under harsh rule. Many of the newest, the new generation, they have no experience of that. They have no relationship that they don't know what that's like. They don't know what it means to suffer like that.

对他们来说，网球或许被视为理所当然。而仍与佛朗哥统治时期有联系的第一代或第二代球员，那些人可能更珍惜网球，因为他们体会到了自由解放、能够打网球的喜悦。年轻一代的孩子则完全无法理解在独裁下受苦是什么概念，他们生活在繁荣的民主社会，享受着诸多现代便利与奢侈。

For them, maybe they take tennis for granted. And the the the first generation or two that that is still connected to the rule of Franco, those people probably really appreciate tennis a bit more because it's the they they get the the joy of being free and liberated and being able to play tennis. Probably, appreciate it a bit more. Probably, the young kids, they don't have no concept of what that's like to suffer under a dictatorship. They live in a a democracy and a flourishing democracy with a lot of of modern conveniences and luxuries.

正如你所知，奢侈有时会影响球员的动力，影响他们的渴望、斗志和吃苦的意愿。这可能成为一个因素。

And as you know, luxuries can sometimes affect the player's motivation and affect the player's desire and hunger and willingness to suffer. That can be a factor.

通过这次对话，我脑海中的画面确实变得更加清晰了一些，有几个点对我来说串联起来了。我想以西班牙男性和女性为例谈谈。根据过去十五年的观察，男性总体上擅长群体协作狩猎，他们互相激励、竞争，比如一起旅行时会产生‘我能打败你，你能打败我’的互动，彼此推动前进。而女性通常需要更多个性化关注，可能有不同的比赛风格。传统上我们认为女性比赛更像是先发制人的网球类型，这与一起击球或对练并不完全契合，因为训练课程不会那么标准化。

The the the picture is becoming certainly a bit clearer in my head as well with this conversation in terms of a few dots are being joined together for me in terms of an I'd I'd like to touch upon Spanish men versus Spanish women as an example. From what I've seen over the last fifteen years, males in general hunt quite well in packs. Ego push each other, competitive, you know, traveling together lets you, you know, I can beat you, you can beat me. We push each other along. Females in general require a bit more individualized attention, have maybe different game styles, and and and I guess the the the traditionally, we thought of the female game as being kind of this first strike tennis type thing, which which doesn't necessarily go hand in hand with hitting together or sparring together because a practice session will is not so it's not so conformed.

对吧？如果我和克里斯你一起打球，我们寻找节奏时，我变换线路，两次斜线一次直线，这样配合起来效果很好，我们都能得到有效训练。但如果练习我发外角球后抢攻，这对你来说就是很糟糕的训练了，对不对？

Right? If I go out and play with you, Chris, and we we're we're looking for rhythm and I'm changing line, going two cross one line, and we're doing that. It kind of works nicely together, and I get a nice practice, and you do. If I if we're working on me serving out wide, then me smacking the ball early into the space, that's kind of a crap practice for you. Right?

我现在试图串联的观点是：随着比赛演变，可能需要更多个性化关注来发展球员的比赛风格。目前市场上我确实看到这种个性化需求——学员来学院都要求额外私教课，他们不愿只做和其他人一样的常规训练。我理解这种需求，这也符合我的理念：每个人都有独特优劣势和得分方式。现在数据表明，65%到70%的回合中，球员只触球两次。

And the bit I'm trying to join the dots with here is the way that the game is evolving maybe does require more individualized attention in terms of how the games are players games are developed and the I guess the personalized nature of the I certainly see that in the marketplace right now. You know, people come to the academy and everyone wants extra private lessons and everyone wants, you know, wants this and they want to. They they they don't want to necessarily just come in and do the drills that everyone else does. And I understand that and that would be certainly part of my philosophy as well that, you know, people do have different strengths and weaknesses, and everyone's got their their own ways of trying to win the points. And we we now know statistically 65, 70% of the points, you only touch the ball twice.

你知道吗？那么你是如何高效做到这些的？你明白吗？你是如何掌控比赛要点的？又是如何在比赛中不崩溃的？

You know? So how are you how are you doing that effectively? You know? How are you getting on top of points? How are you not breaking down in points?

我确实经常思考这些问题，当然不会妄下定论，因为正如克里斯你精彩提及的那样，影响因素实在太多太多。我只是好奇，这是否已成为当今所有网球选手的常态，或者说我们传统认知中女性球员的需求——她们需要教练和针对个人特点的训练方式。而男孩们可以直接上场击球，通过竞争自然找到自己的路。但现在越来越多的人也需要这种个性化培养。

And I I do just wonder a lot of this and without coming to absolute conclusions, of course, because there are many, many factors as as you've touched on them beautifully, Chris, so many of them. I do just I do just wonder if that is all tennis players now or what we traditionally thought women were, that women needed. They needed their their coach and their way of working on the individualized game. Boys can just go out there and hit loads of balls, and they'll compete and they'll they'll find their way. Whereas now more and more, that's that's what that's what people need.

以金雯为例。没错，她来自西班牙体系，但几乎可以确定那是一对一的训练模式，规模非常小。

So if we take let's take Kinwen. Okay. Yes. It's the Spanish system, but you can almost guarantee it was a one on one setup, you know, pretty much. It was a very small setup.

我很难想象她会和其他学员一起参加集体训练，整天在学院里做着相同的篮式训练。我推测她的训练极具个性化。而这种个性化培养的附加代价就是更高的费用。是的，这种方式确实让全面推广变得异常困难。

I can't imagine she was just going out there and playing in in squads at, you know, at at one of the academies and and doing the basket drills with everybody else all all all day every day. You know, I would imagine it was very it was very personalized. And that the the bit that then adds on from that personalized is more expensive. Yeah. It think it it becomes very hard to be able to do it all in that way as well.

确实。我从未听过将个性化训练与西班牙女性球员稀缺现象联系起来的观点，这个论点很有趣。关于私教课，根据我二十年来在西班牙的观察，早期大多数机构根本不提供私教课。比如路易斯·布鲁格拉就反对私教，许多学院都会拒绝这类请求。

Yeah. I haven't heard that take, that perspective on the individualization and and and linking it to the lack of female players in Spain. It's an interesting argument. Certainly, just to to touch on private lessons, I have seen in the last twenty years of my travels to Spain, in the early years, most places didn't do any private lessons. And, you know, Luis Bruguera never wanted anyone to do private some play many academies would refuse.

他们会直接拒绝私教课申请，坚称'不行，我们的标准是每组两名球员共用场地，这已经算是半私教性质了'。

They would refuse requests to do private lessons. And they say, no. No. No. Our our two players per court on the group is that that is technically a semi private.

这就足够了。当时对于外国家庭提出的私教需求存在很大阻力——特别是来自欧洲各国（包括英国、东欧）以及后来逐渐增多的美国家庭，他们都强烈要求私教课程。

That's enough. So there was a lot of pushback against foreign families who came in and asked for private lessons. That's a that's a common demand from players Yep. Families coming in from all over Europe, including England and Eastern Europe and especially America. As American families started coming to Spain, they all wanted private lessons.

最终，大多数学院都妥协了。多年来，我看到大多数学院开始提供私人课程，这在过去是从未有过的。这是一个有趣的趋势。这与训练的商业化有关，因为你可以收费，教练可以通过私人课程赚取额外收入。所以这是一个有趣的发展。

And eventually, most of the academies caved to that. And over the years, I saw most academies start to offer private lessons, which they never did in the past. So that is an interesting trend. It relates to the commercialization of of training because you can charge and charge more for the coaches can charge they can make extra money, basically, for a private. So that is an interesting development.

对我来说，为什么西班牙培养出的女性球员如此之少？我认为很大程度上是文化原因，男孩被期望成为运动员，而女孩有时会被引导去做其他事情。所以在西班牙，文化因素非常突出。我还认为西班牙教练中存在严重的大男子主义，有一种男子气概的文化。

For me, why are there so few female players coming out of Spain? I think a lot of it's cultural, where the boys are expected to be athletes and the girls are are sometimes steered to other things. So you have a cultural aspect that's very prominent in Spain. I also I think there's a real chauvinism in Spanish coaching. There's a macho culture.

确实如此。是的。

There is. Yep.

我见过许多在西班牙团体或训练项目中的女孩基本上被忽视。你知道吗？男孩们得到了大部分关注，而女孩们有时会被冷落在远处的球场上。你可以清楚地看到，西班牙的大多数教练都是男性，这是一个男性主导的教练世界。西班牙真的需要更多女性教练。

I've seen many girls in Spanish groups or in Spanish training programs basically be neglected. Know? Like, the the boys would get most of the attention, and the girls would be left, you know, on sometimes on their own, on a far court. You could clearly see that most of the coaches in Spain are male, like, this hugely dominated male world of coaching. They really need more female coaches in Spain.

但这是一个男性主导的文化，非常具有大男子主义。我试图在书和文章中谈论西班牙的女性球员，因为我不喜欢只关注ATP。我们说西班牙在衰落，但我们谈论的是男性。我们总是从男性的角度出发。

But it's a male dominated culture. It's very chauvinistic culture. I try to talk about female players from Spain and and my book and in articles because I don't like to be only focused on the ATP. You know, we say Spain's in decline, but we're we're talking about men. We're always dominated with a male perspective, you know.

在女性方面也有一些成功。穆古鲁扎是我总是提到的例子，她从委内瑞拉搬到西班牙，并获得了西班牙国籍。看，这就是方法。你引进一名外国球员，他们改变国籍。

There have been some successes on the female side. Mugarusa is one that I'm that I always try to bring up who moved to Spain from Venezuela. And he took on Spanish citizenship. See, that's the way to do it. You get a foreign player, and they they they switch their citizenship.

现在你有一名球员进入了世界前100。但如果她没有改变国籍，也许她有双重国籍。她可能有双重国籍。但无论如何，她现在为西班牙效力，为西班牙国旗而战。

Now you get a player that counts for the top 100. But if you train if she had not changed her citizenship, maybe she had dual citizenship. She she may have had dual citizenship. But anyway, so she she she plays for Spain. She plays for the Spanish flag.

这是个很棒的背景。她以外国人的身份到来，是一位非常非常成功的选手。奥兰蒂斯·桑切斯·维卡里奥曾是位了不起的球员，很多人已经忘了。她打的是西班牙风格的比赛，作为大满贯得主非常成功，来自令人惊叹的桑切斯家族，一个不可思议的网球世家。

So that's a great setup. You know, she came as a foreigner, she she was a great very, very successful player. Orontes Sanchez Vicario was a tremendous player. A lot of people forget. Talk about she played a Spanish game, very successful grand slam winner, from an amazing family, the Sanchez family, incredible tennis family.

哈维尔曾是顶尖选手。埃米利奥·阿兰西家族是个不可思议的王朝，那个西班牙家族。那里的故事非常有趣。但通常，如果你观察西班牙的训练，我我我是个非常敏锐的西班牙训练观察者。这就是我最终写这本书的原因。

Javier was a top player. Emilio Aranci is an incredible dynasty, that Spanish family. Very interesting story there. But, yeah, the the the women typically if you look at a Spanish practice, I I I'm a very astute observer of Spanish practices. That's that's how I ended up writing the book.

你会看到女孩们，教练大部分时间都在和男孩们交谈。就像你说的，这有点像是男孩的文化。女孩们可能只是在独自练习发球，或者教练以更高的强度训练男孩，而对女孩则没那么严格。你知道，有种大男子主义的心态，认为我们不想对女孩们逼得太紧。这有点像穴居人的思维。

You you see the girls the the coaches are spending most of the time talking to the boys. Like you said, it's kind of a boys culture. The girls are maybe serving a lone basket, you know, or the coach works with the boys with a higher intensity and the girls less. You know, there's a chauvinist mindset that we don't wanna push the girls too hard. This is sort of like caveman thinking.

明白吗？我带过很多美国孩子去西班牙，几十年来一直如此。通常，年轻女孩或男性教练会说，你知道，我们不想。她们还小，是女孩子。

You know? I've brought many American kids to I've I've brought teams to Spain for for years, decades. And, you know, the usually, the young girls or, you know, the the male coaches say, you know, we don't wanna. They're young. They're girls.

我们不想对她们逼得太紧。这绝对是影响女性球员发展的一个因素。当然也有一些亮点，西班牙有一些专门培养女性球员的教练做得非常出色，他们改进并适应了西班牙的训练体系。

We don't wanna push them too hard. This is definitely a factor in the development of female players. And then there are some high highlights. There are some coaches in Spain who specialize in females who do a great job, and they they evolve the Spanish system. They adapt the Spanish system.

他们为女性球员个性化调整了西班牙的训练体系，效果非常好。比如，潘乔·阿尔瓦里诺就是西班牙一位出色的女队教练，可能观众没听说过他，但他是个了不起的女性教练。还有巴勃罗·洛萨诺，洛萨诺·奥特也是个非常优秀的女性教练。

They individualize the Spanish system for female players, and it's wonderful. Pancho Alvarino, for example, is a wonderful girls coach in Spain. Maybe the audience may not have heard of him, but incredible female coach. So you you have Pablo Lozano. Lozano auteur is a very good female coach.

西班牙有一些教练专门致力于为女孩、女性调整训练体系，而且效果显著。但这样的人非常少。这是个非常男性主导、以男性为中心的‘男孩俱乐部’。所以我认为这是个...

You have some, some coaches in Spain who dedicate and adapt the system to girls, to females, and it works. But there's very few of those. This is a very male dominated, male oriented boys club. You know? So I think that is a

这正是我的观点，克里斯。难道在2025年的今天，我们不是已经到了这样一个阶段：我们正在为个人量身定制一套系统，不论其性别如何？卡洛斯·阿尔卡拉斯在任何方面都不以典型的西班牙方式打球。你明白吗？我是说，他的球拍头速度等方面确实有某些特点。

very That's my that's my point though, Chris. Are we not at the stage now in 2025 where actually we're adapting a system for an individual regardless of whether they are male or female? Carlos Alcaraz does not play in a typical Spanish way in any shape or form. You know? Like, it really I mean, he does there's certain aspects, racket head speed.

你知道，有些东西你会认为卡洛斯·阿尔卡拉斯在打一种非常非常不同的网球风格，这种风格是在系统某些方面的基础上以个人方式发展起来的。我的观点是，我相信网球现在已经发展到这样一个阶段——我非常非常了解杰克·德雷珀的成长经历以及这些年来那些出色的教练。它并不一定是一个系统化的方法本身，而是在开发杰克·德雷珀时采用了一种系统化的方法，其中包含某些共同的要素。

You know, there's certain things that you would but Carlos Alcaraz is play playing a very, very different brand of tennis that has been developed in an individual way with it with with certain aspects of of the system. And that's my point is that I believe tennis now is at the stage that I know Jack Draper's upbringing very, very, very well in these coaches, fantastic coaches over the years. It's it's not been necessarily a systematic approach per se. It's been a systematic systematic approach on developing Jack Draper with certain common common denominators within that.

完全同意。

Absolutely.

而我想快速讲个小故事。有个叫里卡多·罗德里格斯的球员，委内瑞拉人，但在西班牙阿利坎特、瓦伦西亚长大，深受西班牙风格影响。他的ATP排名曾达到270左右，后来因伤休养了一年左右。去年他来找我训练了几次，我们有过一次长谈。他说三四年前帮助他赢得未来赛的那些方法现在完全行不通了。

Whereas, I just you know, I I I a quick little story. There's a guy, and he won't mind mind me mentioning him, Ricardo Rodriguez, Venezuelan player, but basically foreigner in Spain, brought up an Alicante, Valencia, and very much at the Spanish way. And he got us maybe up to two seventy, ATP, and he was out injured for a year or so. He came and did a couple of sessions with me last year. We had this big discussion, and he was like, the things I did three years ago, four years ago that were helping me win futures just don't work.

他说这些方法现在完全无效。现在的球员从球场各个位置都能果断出手。他说自己很难做到这点，因为他脑海中总回响着教练的声音——虽然不确定具体是哪位瓦伦西亚的教练——那个声音会说：'如果你那样做，就是在瞎跑。知道吗？球应该打向中场。'

It doesn't work anymore. He said these players are just pulling the trigger from all parts of the court. And he said, it's so hard for me to do it because I've got the voice, and he I don't know exactly who his coach was, but he said, I've just got the voice of my coach in Valencia say, like, if you do that, you're running. You know? That ball goes up and back through the middle.

那个声音会说球绝不能直接打向边线。他说这些理念已经深植骨髓，而现在面对那些年轻选手时，他们只是简单地移动到球后，用外侧脚站稳就果断出手。而他却试图用智取胜，运用那些被灌输多年的固定套路。

That ball does not go straight down that line. So he said, I've got these things so inbuilt in me that I I I now playing against these youngsters who are just getting in behind the ball, getting the outside foot and behind ball without any smart and just pulling the trigger. And I'm trying to out smart them. I'm trying to use the the patterns that I've been taught for so long. And I do.

我认为当我们讨论更高水平时——我说的这个系统及其固定打法模式，虽然整体上非常出色，在帮助球员从平庸到优秀方面效果惊人。但要从优秀到卓越就需要更多，在2025年更是如此。

I just think it it when we're talking about at a higher level and when I say higher level, I'm talking. I've always thought of it. That system and that way of people playing in those patterns and that meant just the whole the whole thing, which has been fantastic. I think it's unbelievable at helping players go from being average to good. But people going from good to great needs more, and in 2025, even more so.

我认为这个观点很棒，我也确实看到了西班牙的训练方式。一些西班牙教练反对将其称为体系，有些人则不这么认为。在西班牙，一些从业者更倾向于不使用‘体系’这个词，有些人则喜欢称其为方法论。无论你怎么称呼它。

I think that's a great point, and I I do see the Spanish method. Some of the Spanish coaches object to some call it a system, some do not. Some, you know, practitioners in Spain prefer you you not use the word system. Some people prefer to call it a methodology. Whatever however you wanna call it.

训练是有结构的，某些练习中存在共性。是的，确实存在一种共同的方法，我认为你说得非常对。这是培养优秀球员、打造一支精锐队伍的好方法。

There's a structure of training. There's a commonality in some drills. Yeah. There there is a there is a common method, and I think you're absolutely right. It's a great way to make players good, to build an armada of soldiers.

这是一种高效培养球员的方式。我完全同意你的观点，真正优秀的教练是因材施教的。无论你在哪个国家，采用何种体系，个性化训练我认为是最佳的。在西班牙，他们能够实现个性化训练的一个方式通常是每片场地安排两名球员。

It's an efficient way to make players good. And I think you're absolutely right that great coaching is individualized. I don't care what country you're in or what what system you're operating under. Individualized training is is, I think, optimal. And I think that in Spain, one of the ways they they have been able to individualize it because they have two typically, two players per court.

在我开始去西班牙之前，从未见过这样的配比。典型的训练小组只有两名球员。教练可以选择练习内容，每天基本上给每位球员提供半私教课程。比如在BTT（巴塞罗那全面网球中心），我待了很长时间，他们就坚持这种配比。

I've never seen that ratio before. Before I started traveling to Spain, I never saw groups like that. A typical group has two players. The coach is able to select exercises and give each player basically a semi private each day. For example, at BTT, I spent a lot of time at BTT, Barcelona Total Tennis, and they adhere to this ratio.

这真的很美妙。即使是今年夏天的训练营期间，有时他们安排一名球员配一名教练，有时两名球员配一名教练，这通常是上限。教练能在这样的环境中工作非常特别，尤其是对年轻教练和正在学习的教练来说，他们能够投入时间和精力进行个性化训练，正如你所强调的，这非常重要。我认为这是西班牙长期以来的优势所在。绝对如此。

And it's really beautiful. Even this summer during camp time, sometimes they have one player with a coach, sometimes they have two players with a coach, and that's typically the maximum. And it it's a very special thing for a coach to be able to work in that environment because especially young coaches, coaches who are learning, they're able to give their time and attention to to individualize the training like you're like you're suggesting. It's so important. So I think that's been a strength of Spain even for a long time Absolutely.

不同于固守严格的方法或体系——路易斯·布鲁格拉（我在西班牙主要师从的导师）始终认为，你应该选择适合每个个体的练习，不断调整。我相信他的体系或方法比传奇的帕托·阿尔瓦雷斯更为灵活。威廉·帕托·阿尔瓦雷斯的训练体系更加结构化，每天必须完成固定的练习。

Rather than sticking to a strict method a strict system that Luis Bruguero, who who I studied with the most in Spain, he's been a mentor of mine. He always believed that you you try to take the exercises and find the right exercise for each individual. You try to you you always adapt. And I believe his system his method was a bit more flexible than than, for example, the legendary Pato Alvarez. William Pato Alvarez had more structured rigid system of drills that you had to do daily, typically.

所以我也想说说你提到的阿尔卡拉斯，这很有趣。我称他的网球为‘西班牙网球2.0版’。他绝对更偏向于击球手风格，比历史上西班牙球员典型打法更缺乏耐心。丹，你可能会感兴趣，我在西班牙的许多教练朋友都说，阿尔卡拉斯让我们的工作变得更难了。

So I would also say you mentioned Alcaraz. It's very interesting. I call his tennis Spanish tennis two point o. He he's definitely more of a shot maker and and less patient than you typically see in Spain historically. I think, Dan, you'd be interested to know that I have many coaches in Spain, friends of mine, who say that Alcaraz has made our job a lot harder.

他让我们的教学工作变得困难许多——要教会孩子们保持稳健和耐心。他们看到阿尔卡拉斯尝试那些不可思议的击球，西班牙所有网球学院的孩子都想模仿这种打法。明白吗？

He's made our job much more difficult to teach kids to be to be solid, to be patient. They see Alcaraz try these incredible shots, and all of the kids in Spain and all the kids at the academies, they wanna they wanna copy that. You know?

幸运的是库里奥斯不是西班牙人。

The lucky Kurios is not Spanish.

没错。但阿尔卡拉斯有那种炫技风格，他是个击球方式多变的选手，孩子们都想模仿他。

Right. But Alcaraz, he has that panache. He has that style. He's a shot mixer. Kids wanna copy him.

他让小球技术风靡一时。十年前或十五年前，我根本无法说服家长让我教孩子们打小球，当时是我必须极力推广这项技术。如今却有人主动要求学小球——这就是阿尔卡拉斯效应，现在人人都想学放小球。

He's made the drop shot very popular. I never could convince parents to let me teach the drop shot ten or fifteen years ago. I was the one who had to push it. Nowadays, I have requests to teach the drop shot to every it's the Alcaraz effect. Everybody wants to learn a drop shot.

现在所有孩子都在尝试。但他的团队...胡安·卡洛斯·费雷罗的团队实在太出色了。安东尼奥·卡斯卡莱斯——我书里专门用一章写他，我称他为'另一个托尼'，是那个不为人知的托尼。

All the kids try it now. But his team I think his team at Juan Carlos Ferrero is is they're so brilliant. I think Antonio Cascales I have a chapter on Cascales in my book. I call him the other Tony. He's the Tony that nobody's ever heard of.

人人都知道托尼·纳达尔。但托尼·卡斯卡莱斯，他非常杰出。本质上，他做的就是你说的'个性化培养'。他融合了西班牙多位教练的理念，从帕托·阿尔瓦雷斯到路易斯·布鲁格拉，形成了混合式培养体系，非常灵活。

Everybody knows Tony Nadal. But Tony Cascales, he's he's brilliant. And, basically, what he's done is he does that individualization that you're talking about. He he's he's taken multiple influences from Spain, from Pato Alvarez, from Luis Bruguera, and he's hybridized that approach. He's very flexible.

他因材施教，根据球员特点制定方案。阿尔卡拉斯就是这种培养模式的产物。他被允许自由发挥，可以用这种独特风格打球。是的。

He works with the individual. He works with the the player. And you see Alcaraz as a product of that that approach. Alcaraz was allowed to express himself. He was allowed to play in this different style Yep.

哪里

Where

阿尔卡拉斯若在传统西班牙网球学院可能早就被埋没了。他不会有机会绽放光芒。我认为这正是胡安·卡洛斯·费雷罗和安东尼奥·卡斯卡莱斯的过人之处。安东尼奥曾是费雷罗的启蒙教练，如今他们共同在西班牙小镇维也纳运营着这家学院。

Alcaraz probably would have been shut down at a traditional Spanish academy. He wouldn't have been allowed to flourish. And I think that's one of the genius aspects that Juan Carlos Ferrero and Antonio Cascales. Antonio Cascales was Juan Carlos Ferrero's original coach, and now they run the academy together in Vienna. It's a small town in in Spain.

我认为他们的高明之处在于，将传统西班牙训练的严苛、牺牲与痛苦，与你所说的灵活性和个性化相融合。这堪称当今西班牙网球训练的最优模式。

And I think one of the brilliant things that they did is they they they've taken sort of the grip and the toughness and the sacrifice and the suffering, and they've sort of blended it with the flexibility and the individualization that you're talking about. I think that is, like, the optimal way to do Spanish training nowadays.

克里斯，这其实是绝佳的收尾——我最后一个问题本是想问未来趋势，但你刚才这30到45秒的发言已经给出了答案。这种混合式、个性化的训练方式就是未来，对吧？关于未来几年的发展，你还有什么要补充的吗？

Chris, I think it's a great way to to end it actually in terms of my last question was gonna be what's next, but what you've just said there in the last thirty, forty five seconds, I I guess that's what's next. Right? It's the it's the the the hybrid approach, the individualization of it. Is there anything else you wanna add on you what you think's next over the next few years?

是的。老实说我也不确定未来会怎样。我对此思考良多——毕竟研究西班牙网球近二十年，这个问题始终萦绕在我脑海。

Yes. Yes. I I don't know what's next. I put a lot of thought into it. You know, I've spent almost twenty years studying Spanish tennis, so I think about it a lot.

西班牙网球的未来可能有两种走向：其一是保持现有水平，在ATP前100名中维持五到七名选手。对欧洲小国而言，这已是不错的成绩。

Like, what's gonna happen with Spanish tennis? And I think I can go two different ways. Spanish tennis could basically maintain five or six or seven players in the top 100. We're talking about ATP. And that would be a pretty good result for a a relatively small country in Europe.

我最近撰写了篇《西班牙网球振兴计划》的文章。或许网球协会或各学院会联合起来，重新聚焦本土培养的球员。我很好奇他们能否实现这样的转型——这绝非易事。

You know? Or some of these, you know, I I have a new article that I wrote, an action plan for Spanish sense. Maybe the the the either the federation or the academies will come together and try to refocus on native born players. I I'm really curious to see if there's if they're able to do a a shift like that. That that is a pretty big ask.

你们那里有许多学院，涉及众多不同的商业利益。这个国家能团结起来吗？也许这会成为一个警钟，因为数字在减少，关于这方面的新闻会越来越多。你熟悉‘网球赋能中心’这个科技倡议吗？是的。

You have a lot of academies with a lot of different commercial interests there. Can the country come together? And maybe this will be a wake up call because the numbers are dwindling, and there's gonna be more and more news about it. Are you familiar with the tech initiative, Tennis Empowerment Center? Yeah.

我听说过。我略有耳闻。

I have. I've I've heard little bits about it.

这简直难以置信。我十月份刚去过西班牙的科技训练中心，那是巴塞罗那UP俱乐部的一个共享设施。我在那里有许多来自巴尔多（基本上是前布鲁格拉团队）的朋友。十月份我实地考察时，目睹了所有科技教练的工作，他们的专业素养让我深感震撼，因此我想了解更多。

It's unbelieve it's unbelievable. I was just in Spain in in October at the tech training center, which is a it's a shared facility at the at the UP Club in Barcelona. And I have, many friends there from from Bardo, which is basically the former Bruguera team. So I was on-site there in October, and I watched all the tech coaches working. And I was really, really impressed by their professionalism, and I wanted to learn more about it.

后来我得知他们正在城市北部建造一座价值2000万欧元的设施。这是对西班牙球员的非营利性投资。不同于走联合会路线，这个非常富有的非营利组织——卡洛斯·费雷尔·萨拉特曾是银行家，西班牙经济领袖，他将遗产留给了这个组织。他本人也是网球运动员。

And I learned that they're building a €20,000,000 facility in the north of the city. It's a it's a nonprofit investment in Spanish players. So rather than go the federation route, this very wealthy nonprofit, Carlos Ferrer Salat was a banker. He was a very wealthy businessman, and he was an economic leader in Spain. And he left to this nonprofit, and he wanted the nonprofit to he was a tennis player.

他是网球爱好者，也曾是网球选手。所以这是一个非常新的倡议，我记得他们启动于2020年2月或2021年2月，非常新颖。

Was a tennis fan. He was a tennis player. And so this is a very new initiative. I believe they started up in 02/2020, 02/2021. This is brand new.

他们拥有一支专业教练团队，阿尔伯特·科斯塔担任技术总监。他们正在城市北部建造价值2000万欧元的设施，令人惊叹。他们正对西班牙球员进行重大投资。

And they have a whole team of professional coaches. They have Albert Costa as their technical director. They're building a €20,000,000 facility in the in the city, in the north of the city. It's incredible. And they're they're putting a big investment in Spanish players.

实际上，他们正在践行我们提出的建议，但完全避开了联合会路线。他们选择非营利途径，绕开政治和联合会，仅依靠卡莱斯·费雷尔·萨拉特的捐赠基金运作。这真是个迷人的倡议，丹，他们极其专业。

So they're actually doing what we're we're suggesting, like and but they're not going the the, federation route at all. They're going the nonprofit route. They're bypassing the politics. They're bypassing the federation, and they're just funding this with with car Carles Ferrer Salat's basically endowment. So it's a really fascinating initiative, and they're super professional, Dan.

我很好奇他们是否能开始培养出进入世界前100名的球员。这是他们的目标。这正在西班牙网球界上演，成为当下一个引人入胜的支线故事，而且此刻就在我们眼前展开。另一个问题是，我们能否让网球学院和俱乐部与之合作？我知道你更倾向自然发展，但他们能否在某些方面与网球联合会协作，为这些西班牙孩子争取关注，尝试稍微扭转一下局面？

I'm curious to see if they're gonna be able to start producing some players that make the top 100. That's their goal. So it's just that that's a fascinating side story in Spanish tennis that's happening right now, and it's unfolding as we speak. And then there's a question of, you know, can we get the academies and the clubs to maybe collaborate with it? I I know you you want more organic, but can they collaborate some some in some ways with the federation to try to get attention for these Spanish kids, and just try to turn the ship around a little bit?

是的。关于这些举措，我还想补充一点，也是我尚未提及但非常重要的：西班牙拥有数量惊人的高水平青少年网球选手，真的非常多。我亲眼所见。

Yeah. The only thing I'd add on that as well in terms of these initiatives, the one thing I haven't said, and I think it's a really important point to make, is there is an incredible amount of highly competitive and highly skilled junior tennis players in Spain. Like, an incredible amount. You know? And I I see it.

我在自己的学院里就看到了。我儿子也在打球，他14岁。说实话，每个年龄段都有两三百名实力不俗的球员，要知道这在小国家里。

I see it with my academy. My son plays. My son's 14. You know? And and, genuinely, you're talking about there being two, three, 400 players of every age group, you know, that play to a very good level, you know, the smaller countries.

因此只要完善部分基础设施和生态系统，他们绝对不缺乏年轻、有竞争力且充满激情的网球人才。

So by getting some of those infrastructures and ecosystems right, they're certainly not lacking young talent, young competitive, passionate talent as well.

这对西班牙来说是个好兆头。西班牙的训练理念已传播至全球，人尽皆知。所以西班牙需要深刻反思：如何与过去的自己竞争？我们必须进化。

And that could bode well for the country. The the Spanish gospel has been spread all over the world. And so everybody knows about it. So Spain needs to take a hard look in the mirror and say, how are we gonna compete with ourselves? You know, we have to evolve.

我们必须做得更好，革新我们的训练方法，才能与那些使用我们方法的人竞争。我认为这非常关键。先革新方法论，再更聚焦于培养西班牙的孩子。

We have to we have to do better and evolve our own methodology so that we can compete with the people that are using our tools. I think that's really important. Evolve the methodology and then try to get more focused on the Spanish kids.

你真是位明星级嘉宾。感谢你的到来。不过能抽出两分钟参加我们的快问快答环节吗？

You're an absolute star. Thank you for coming on. But do you have two minutes for our quick fire round?

当然。你

Absolutely. You

在快速问答环节中，不要试图控制那些可控因素。

don't come and control the controllables throughout the quick fire round.

我有点紧张。

I'm a little nervous.

红土场还是硬地球场？

Clear courts or hard courts?

两者都得训练。必须的。

You have to train on both. Have to.

发球还是正手？

Serve or forehand?

两者都需要。它们是比赛中最具统治力的武器。你需要一个强有力的发球武器和正手武器。两者缺一不可，而且必须让它们相辅相成。抱歉。

You need both. They're the most dominant weapons in the game. You need a weapon serve and the forehand weapon. You need them both, and you gotta use them both to to complement each other. Sorry.

我在这儿躲闪呢。

I'm I'm dodging here.

我想我得先说明一下快速问答环节的规则。这个环节要求你二选一，如果每个答案都说'两者都要'，那就失去意义了，特此澄清。

I think I'm gonna have to clarify the quick fire round here. So the quick fire round is you choose one or the other. It doesn't doesn't work if you say both to all the answers, just to be just to be clear.

好吧，我试试看。我会尽力配合的。

Alright. I'm gonna try. I'm gonna try here.

正手还是反手？

Forehand or backhand?

正手。

Forehand.

喊'Vamos'还是'Venga'？选'Vamos'。拉法还是卡洛斯？

Vamos or Venga? Vamos. Rafa or Carlos?

拉法。

Rafa.

选Arrancha还是Garbin？

Arrancha or Garbin?

Arrancha。

Arrancha.

未来十年，西班牙网球会进一步衰落还是重新崛起？重新崛起。努力训练还是聪明训练？

Over the next ten years, will Spanish tennis decline further or rise again? Rise again. Work hard or work smart?

聪明训练。

Work smart.

因为我认为训练方法论也需要持续进化。完全同意。不仅是西班牙，所有所有训练体系都该如此。你觉得2025年法网男女单打冠军会是谁？

Because that's where I think the methodology needs to keep evolving as well. Absolutely. Not just Spanish, but all all all methodologies. Who do you think the singles French Open winners will be in 2025, men and women?

哇，这可难倒我了。我猜是斯瓦泰克和阿尔卡拉斯。

Oh, boy. I'm gonna say Iga and Carlitos.

如果让你修改一条网球规则，你会改什么？

What's one rule change you would have in tennis?

一次发球。就一次发球，丹。

One serve. One serve, Dan.

那么，你会对西班牙网球体系做出哪一项改变？

And what's one change you would make to the Spanish system?

专注于发球。请把发球作为优先训练项目。

Focus on the serve. Make the serve a priority, please.

那种踢式发球，那个你因为已经改变网球规则而能使用的踢式发球？

What that kick serve that one serve kick serve that you're gonna get because you've already changed the rules of tennis?

我必须选一个。我本来想说不会是球拍问题，但我选了发球。

I had to choose something. The I I was gonna say it wouldn't rack us. I went with serve.

我们下期《掌控可控因素》节目该邀请哪位嘉宾？

And who should our next guest be on control the controllables?

西班牙嘉宾？

Spanish guest?

任何嘉宾都可以，但你要负责。所以仔细考虑清楚。

Any guest, but you're responsible. So think carefully.

你应该尝试邀请安东尼奥·卡斯卡莱斯。他是个天才，是无名英雄。没人知道他，但他真的很了不起。

You should try to get Antonio Cascales. He's a genius. He's an unsung hero. Nobody knows about him. He's amazing.

不过他的英语非常差。你需要...你需要一个翻译。

His English is very poor, though. You gotta you need a you need a translator.

你...你有他的联系方式吗？

Do do you have the hookup?

他是另一个托尼，西班牙的无名英雄。他培养出过两位世界排名第一的选手，却无人知晓。

He's the other Tony, the unsung hero of Spain. He's developed two number one players in the world, and nobody knows about him.

太不可思议了。克里斯，这次对话极具启发性，我非常享受，感觉时间过得飞快。衷心感谢你的到来，也为你对网球界做出的所有贡献喝彩，感谢你与我们分享这些宝贵知识。相信很多人会想阅读你的书以及更新版，我们会把所有相关链接放在节目备注里。

Incredible. Chris, this has been a massively insightful conversation, a one that that I've loved, the one that's gone very quick for me. But a big a big thank you to to you for coming on. A big well done for all of your contributions that you're giving to the tennis world and to be sharing this incredible knowledge with us as well. I'm sure lots of people will want to read the book and and the updated version, and we will have all of those links in in the show notes as well.

最后，我谨代表《掌控可控之事》向你致以诚挚的谢意。

But I just wanna say a big heartfelt thank you from Control the Controllables.

谢谢，丹。这是一次很棒的对话。请继续保持你在节目中的表现。我是你的忠实粉丝，你为网球社区提供了宝贵的服务。我们拭目以待西班牙网球的未来。

Thanks, Dan. It's a great conversation. Keep up what you're doing with the show. I'm a big fan, and you provide a valuable service for the tennis community. And we'll see what happens with Spanish tennis.

我们必须持续关注，看看他们能否东山再起。

We have to keep keep watching and see if they can rise again.

完全同意。谢谢你。好了，总结来说，我们认为从某些方面看确实如此。

Absolutely. Thank you. So there we have it. Yeah. Lots of reasons why we I guess the summary is we believe it is in some ways.

我认为数据不会说谎，对吧？就顶尖选手的数量而言，就西班牙新秀涌现的担忧而言。作为教练和网球家长，我在基层亲眼所见——球员基数庞大，所以看到衰退迹象确实不太合理。不过我认为在最高水平层面，可能确实存在下滑。

I think you you can't argue with the numbers, right, in terms of the numbers at the top of the game, in terms of the concerns about Spanish players coming through. I certainly see it on the ground level as a coach, as a tennis parent. There's a lot of players. So it's it doesn't seem right to see it on the decline. However, I think at the highest level, it possibly is.

另外我们没谈到的是其他国家的崛起。现在有太多国家正在抢占那些席位。网球运动似乎每年都变得更加竞争激烈，这项运动无疑在进化——现在还存在所谓的'西班牙网球'风格吗？

And, you know, one thing we didn't talk about is the emergence of the other countries as well. Right? There's so many other countries now that are taking up some of those spaces. The tennis seems to get more and more competitive every year. The the game's certainly evolving, and it's it's like, is there such a thing now as Spanish tennis?

还存在英国网球、澳大利亚网球、印度网球这些区分吗？过去我们觉得所有印度选手都发球上网，所有西班牙选手都底线拉上旋高球。但现在我感觉网球正回归网球本质，大家都在打进攻型网球，移动能力都很出色。

Is there such a thing as UK tennis, Australian tennis, Indian tennis? You know, we used to think of everyone in India serve volleyed. Everyone in Spain stands behind the baseline and plays high to the backhand. It feels to me that tennis is starting to just be tennis, you know, and everyone's playing pretty offensively. Everyone's moving well.

所以对于有志成为职业球员的人，务必练好移动、发球，确保能从球场任何位置打出制胜分。因为在顶尖层面，仅仅把球回过去已经不够了。当然在某个水平阶段你可以靠跑动和稳定性取得成功，但在最高级别行不通。这项运动永远在进化，我们静观其变，希望刚才的讨论能给你带来启发。

And, yeah, if you're a if you're an aspiring tennis player, make sure you move well. Make sure you serve well. Make sure that you're able to hit winners and and be able to get on top of the point from all parts of the court because no longer is is it acceptable to a high level to be able to just put the ball in court. You know, you absolutely can run and put the ball in court up to a certain level and and have a lot of success, but you you can't at the the top end of the game. As ever, it's evolving, and we'll see where it evolves next, but I hope you took lots from that conversation there.

我们并非宣称自己在所有事情上都是正确的。不，那并非这次对话的初衷。我们只是想稍微开启一些思考的空间，激发大家反思自己的想法。请务必联系我们，告诉我们你的看法。

We're we're not saying we're right on everything. No. That's not what the conversation was about. It was about just opening little bits of thought process, you know, and and getting people to provoke some of your own thoughts. Please do reach out to us and and let us know what you think.

我们的观点准确吗？还是完全偏离了方向？如果某些内容触动了你，是否在你脑海中引发了某种想法？请一定要让我们知道。我认为我们整个网球界都是一体的。

Are we are we accurate? Are we way off? Are we if we got something, is it may is it is it got something going in your head, an idea? Please do let us know. I think all of us are in this tennis fraternity together.

对吧？我觉得这类话题非常有趣。我最后的感想是：西班牙网球在诸多方面都蓬勃发展，那种独特的西班牙网球文化依然充满活力——强烈的竞争意识、刻苦训练的作风、全力以赴的态度、永不言弃的精神。这些品质都是历久弥新的，而我看到这些特质在这里比比皆是。

Right? And it's I think these sort of subjects are really interesting. And just my kind of final thoughts are Spanish tennis is thriving in so many ways, and and and the culture that is Spanish tennis still lives very strong. That strong competition culture, that strong culture of hard work, of giving your best, of not giving up. You know, those are the sort of things that are timeless as well, you know, those character traits that I see in abundance.

因此，我们将永远感激西班牙网球带给我们的这些宝贵财富。我个人尤其感恩能深度参与其中——在这个美丽的国家拥有自己的网球学院，儿子也在这种西班牙体系下打出了不错水平的网球。我每天都见证着这里发生的辛勤付出。正如我所说，这些品格特质是永恒的，我相信它们将继续在未来五到十五年间为西班牙网球奠定坚实基础。说到我们，目前有世界排名曾达第五十位的塔罗·丹尼尔...

So, we'll be forever grateful for Spanish tennis for giving us that as well, and I'm certainly grateful to be be heavily involved having my own academy in this beautiful country and having a son that plays tennis to a decent level within that kind of Spanish system as well. I I see the day to day hard work that does go on. You know? And I think, like I said, those those things are absolutely those character traits are timeless, and they're gonna they're gonna stand Spanish tennis in pretty good stead, I would imagine, over the next five, ten, fifteen years as well. As far as us, we've got Taro Daniel who he was a size fiftieth in the world.

他的排名下滑至约140位，但曾击败过四巨头中的两位——包括诺瓦克·德约科维奇和安迪·穆雷。他还在2017年2月的美网从拉斐尔·纳达尔手中拿下一盘，当时比赛进入抢七。

He's dropped about one forty. He's had wins over two of the big four. He's had wins over Novak Djokovic over Andy Murray. He has taken a set. He was a set in a breakup on Rafael Nadal at The US Open in 02/2017.

他还战胜过亚历山大·兹维列夫、卡斯珀·鲁德等众多选手。下周他将做客我们的节目。法网结束后，我们还将为大家带来赛事回顾。

He but he's also beaten Alexander Zverev. He's beaten Caspar Roode. He's beaten many players. He is coming on the show next week. We will be also bringing to you the French Open review when the event does finish.

目前法网正如火如荼进行中，爆出不少冷门，但在我录制时，男女单打的顶尖选手都仍在奋战。很期待巴黎的最终战况。我们还将推出更多播客节目，期待听到你们的反馈。

It's obviously going strong right now, and there's lots of storylines. There's been lots of upsets, but the the big the big guns on both the men's and the women's side are still going as I record this. So interested how that one all ends up here in Paris. And we will have, yeah, more more podcasts coming your way. Love hearing from you.

非常感谢大家的联系。过去一两周里，有不少人与我们取得了联系，对此我深表感激。无论是通过Instagram还是电子邮件进行交流，我都非常珍视这些对话。请随时联系我们，这是属于你们的播客。

Love you guys reaching out. Thank you to quite a few of you that have been in touch over the last one or two weeks. Love having those conversations, whether it's Instagram, whether it's our email. Please do get in touch. This is your podcast.

但在下次见面之前，我是丹·科尔南，我们将继续‘掌控可控之事’（节目口号）。

But until next time, I'm Dan Kearnan, and we are control the controllables.