如何培养下一代优秀网球选手——与贾斯汀·谢林对话

我会把它们送给真正需要的人，他们会真正珍惜这些装备。

I'll give them to someone that really needs them, and we will really value them.

总是要讲这个故事，因为它太震撼了。

Always tell that story because it's like, damn.

这也是另一个重要影响。

That's also another impact.

如果你能拥有这些好东西，就一定要好好珍惜。

If you can have all this nice stuff, darn well look after you.

对吧？

Right?

没错。

Yeah.

所以我认为我是个充满激情的人，崇尚努力工作的人，也是个会问'他在做什么'的人。

Look after So I think I'm a big guy for passion, big guy for hard work, and big guy for what's he doing?

哦，他太在乎了。

Oh, he cares too much.

他拍打着球拍。

He bounces his racket.

不。

No.

不。

No.

不。

No.

不。

No.

不。

No.

不。

No.

不。

No.

不。

No.

我们我们我们不那么做。

We we we don't do that.

所以，是的，有很多欢乐时光。

So, yeah, so lots of fun times.

而艾伦·琼斯简直难以想象。

And Alan Alan Jones was imagine.

我是说，我希望大家都知道艾伦·琼斯是什么样的人。

I mean, everyone I hope everyone knows what Alan Jones is like.

他是个十足的工作狂。

He's an absolute workhorse.

他是个彻头彻尾的怪物，曾是世界上最强壮的人。

He's an absolute absolute monster, and he was the biggest guy in the world.

然后他说，听着。

And he said, look.

他过去常常阻止乔训练，并说，乔，看看贾斯汀的动作，因为我能动。

He used to stop Joe from training and say, Joe, look at Justin move because I could move.

就像，他希望乔动起来。

Like, he wanted Joe to move.

但后来迈克尔那个

But then Michael That's

滑板就在那儿。

the skateboard right there.

哇。

Wow.

看看这平衡感，低重心，你知道，0重力感，有点超出我的控制范围。

Look at the balance, the low, you know, low sense of gravity, a little bit out of my controllable.

是啊。

Yeah.

然后乔会非常利落地击球，我的教练就会说，好吧，你看。

And and and Joe would be striking the ball so clearly, and and my coach would say, well, look.

稍等一下。

Hold on a second.

你看看乔和我从来没能把球击下去。

You look at how Joe and I could never strike the ball down.

我从来没能击中球。

I could never strike the ball.

我一直以为网球是项跑步运动。

I was always always thought tennis is a running sport.

我总把它看作碰球就跑的项目。

I always saw it as a touch the ball and run.

我从未将其视为停下脚步击球的运动。

I never saw it as a stop and and strike the ball.

所以我觉得，是的，这始终是我坚持的观点。

Like so that's I feel that, yeah, that's always been a always been something I've held on to.

而现在我非常注重击球，希望年轻球员能比我当年打得更好。

And now I'm now I'm so big on striking, and I want guys to strike it better than I did.

你觉得这些故事很棒吗？它们让我思绪万千，各种想法涌上心头。

Do you think that's this your stories are great, and they're they're sending me my mind, like, into all sorts.

但如果我先谈这一点，你认为你缺乏击球能力——我们都知道球员们...

But if I jump onto this one first, do you do you think your lack of striking ability we we know players.

听起来确实因人而异，不是吗？

It sounds different, doesn't it, with certain players?

这纯粹是天赋问题，还是训练时长的问题？

Is that just a talent thing, or is is that an hours of volume thing?

是不是因为你小时候对墙练习，我猜你那时没有专业教练指导？

Is that the because you played on the wall and maybe you didn't have I'm guessing you didn't have the coaching at a young age.

是否存在一个关键期——如果错过了培养正确手感和技巧的窗口期，之后就很难再掌握？

Is there a window if you missed that window of getting the right dexterity and the deck, the right feelings, and understand that the feelings that it's then hard to then pick that up.

你知道那到底是什么吗？

You know, what what is that?

因为直白地说，你刚才表达的核心就是：你曾经极度渴望这个。

Because what you're saying, I guess, in in in quite bluntly is you wanted it badly.

你已竭尽全力，但仍不够出色，这才是真实的故事——但许多人活在另一个叙事里，仿佛只要足够渴望就一定能成功。

You tried your best, but you weren't good enough, which is very much that is the real story, but a lot of people live this story as if you want it bad enough, you'll be able to do it.

但如果你确实能力不足，那就是能力不足。

But if you're just not good enough, you're not good enough.

那么当你回首时，这究竟意味着什么？

So what what is that when you look back?

为什么你没能成为击球高手？

Why were you not a ball striker?

现在回想起来，我想...因为我现在明白了。

I think now when I look back and I because I I know now.

我是说，这项运动比以往任何时候都更注重移动和击球，但老天啊——

I mean, the game is the game is more than ever a game of moving and striking, but my god.

球场可不会自己缩小。

The The court isn't getting any smaller.

现在我们面对的选手们移动能力空前，球场覆盖范围也前所未有。

So we've got we've got these guys now moving better than ever and covering the court better than ever.

我稍微类比一下高尔夫，他们实际上正考虑修改高尔夫规则，让球飞得没那么远。

And I I make a slight comparison to golf whereby they're actually thinking of changing the rules in golf and making, you know, making the ball that it doesn't travel as far.

因为球员们开球距离太远，我不是说他们几乎能一杆上五杆洞果岭，但他们确实能轻松打到五杆洞附近，然后用一支小挖起杆就能搞定。

You know, because guys are driving you know, they're almost I'm not saying they're almost driving par fives, but they're getting, you know, they're they're getting in par fives and then having a little a little pitching wedge.

现在看看我们的运动，我现在的教学方式与十、十五、二十年前截然不同——击球技术当年根本没人教过我。

And and now if we see our sport and the way I teach it now is very different to how I taught it ten, fifteen, twenty years ago, I I striking wasn't it was never presented to me.

从来没人告诉我这是比赛中真正重要的环节。

It was never presented to me as a really important aspect of the game.

而且我记得自己从没钻研过这个，丹，这其实挺讽刺的，因为跟我上过课的人都知道，我的执教重点之一就是...

And I think it I never remember exploring it, which is which is kind of ironic, Dan, because a big part of my coaching and anyone that's ever had lessons with me, they say, oh my god.

他们总说：天啊，

Does he talk about boxing all the time?

他怎么整天讲拳击？

Does he talk about fighting all the time?

怎么老在说格斗技巧？因为我不断强调如何衔接动作和出拳力道——这源于我童年大量练习踢拳和泰拳的经历，我甚至打过职业比赛赚钱，这些经历让我深刻理解了这项运动的身体对抗本质。

Because all I talk about is how you connect and how you punch because the other thing that I did a lot of that had a big influence on my life and a a big learning of the physicality of the game was that I I did a lot of kickboxing and Thai boxing as a kid, and I even fought for money.

我甚至参加过职业泰拳比赛，但后来我想远离这个领域，因为它会影响我的教练生涯。

I even I had professional Thai boxing fights, and and that was something I wanted to move away from because it was gonna affect my coaching career.

但我从泰拳教练和拳击教练那里学到了更多关于打击技巧的知识，因为你要真正阻止对手，这会让你了解身体机能、髋部运动以及动量驱动的原理。

But I learned I learned more from the art of striking from from Thai boxing coaches and from punching coaches because, you know, you're literally trying to stop someone in their tracks, and you learn about the functionality of your body and how the hips move and how the momentum drives.

我从中学到的东西，以及在技术性生物力学打击方面的转化应用，比任何教练课程教给我的都多。

I learned more from that, and I transfer more about technical biomechanical striking than I've ever learned from a coaching course.

我的物理学家朋友做过一个关于打击技巧的简短工作坊，就一两分钟。

My physicist a short workshop, a one, two minute workshop on striking.

完全正确。

Absolutely.

你知道，关键在于髋部发力的时机。

Well, you know, it's the timing of the it's the timing of the hip.

关键在于后腿的蓄力——虽然我们经常讨论这个——但关键在于出拳时的重心下沉。

It's the it's the loading of the back leg, which I know we talk about a lot, but it's the sitting down on your punches.

下沉重心。

Sitting down.

你知道，有些业余选手出来时，他们总是蹦蹦跳跳的，因为他们只想得分。

You know, you get guys that come out of the amateurs, and they, like, jump around and they spring around it because they're trying to point score.

而转为职业选手的关键在于，现在我们需要阻止对手。

And the big thing about going to the professionals is that now we need to stop people.

我们不能总是依赖回合制比赛。

We can't go to our rounds all the time.

所以要稳扎稳打地出拳，保持平衡。

So sitting on on your punches and being balanced.

我认为雅尼克·塞内特就是绝佳范例——他击球时仿佛早已预判落点。

I think Janik Senet is a wonderful example right now of getting behind the ball as if he was already there.

我经常强调这一点。

And I talk about this a lot.

试想：如果我闭眼发球，你能让我感觉你早已守候在落点吗？

Can you if I close if I feed the ball and close my eyes, can you make me feel that you're already there?

我不想看到任何仓促的最后一刻补救动作。

Don't wanna see any last little bit last little bit of hustling.

我希望看到你已就位，坐稳并将力量蓄入后腿，然后砰然出击，在接触瞬间爆发全部速度。

I wanna see you there and sat down and loaded into this back leg and bang and striking and exploding into contact and leaving all the speed in your contact.

保留所有力量，不只是事后发力，当然，这就是我们讨论节奏、时机和动量的时候。

Leave all this not just after, and that's, of course, when we talk about things like rhythm and timing and momentum.

但说实话，我做过最棒的事就是教乔·索尔兹伯里如何踢拳击。

But, actually, the best thing I've ever done is I taught Joe Salisbury how to kickbox.

嗯。

Yeah.

我也经常和杰克·德雷珀一起拿出护具来训练。

And I and I used to get the pads out with Jack Draper as well.

我会直接拿出护具说，伙计们，看好了。

And I would just get them out and say, guys, look.

我们能感受到吗？

Can we feel that?

我们能体会到那种碰撞的概念吗？

Can we feel that collision that collision at concept?

因为，你知道，即便怀着世界上最美好的愿望，除非你变得非常非常出色，否则在球场上跑来跑去玩捉球游戏已经不够了。

Because, you know, with all the best will in the world, unless you're gonna be so good, so good, running around the court and playing tag with a tennis ball isn't gonna cut it anymore.

不。

No.

你必须正确跑动。

You gotta run right.

你必须追到球后面。

You gotta get behind that ball.

我是说，盖伊，保持平衡中心有多难？

I mean, I'm even saying, Guy, how difficult is it to get center of balance?

我们培养出了新一代球员有多难。

How difficult it we've got a new breed.

这就是我认为自己一直在努力的方向，但你需要真正优秀的运动员来实现。

And and this is what I think I've been trying to work on, but you need you need serious athlete to do this.

丹，我认为你还需要一些专业的指导。

You need serious I think you need some serious coaching as well, Dan.

你需要一些严肃的——这点我绝不退让。

You need some serious I'm not budging on this.

我知道阿尔卡拉斯能跳起来。

I I know that Alcaraz can jump off.

他看起来总是腾空状态，但看看他有多少次是真正离地的。

He looks like he's in the air all the time, but look how many times he's he's off the air.

他是双脚离地跳起的。

He's in the air off two feet.

他不仅会海星式击球，也不仅会单侧冲刺。

He's off the air off two not just starfish tennis, not just lunging off on one side.

这些选手具备平衡感。

These guys have balance.

他们能感知大地。

They can feel the earth.

他们能感受到与大地的连接。

They can feel that connection with the ground.

我们还得确保那种放松状态，路易斯当然提到过这点，但它就是有种特别的声响。

And then we've gotta make sure that the relaxation, which Louis talks about, of course, but it just has has that sound.

我执教越久，就越能注意到击球的声音，那种高音调。

And the more I coach, the more the sound of a strike, the high pitch.

我常对那些想观摩课程的人说，最好的办法是去拳击馆学习。

I say to a lot of guys that wanna you know, if you wanna come and listen and come and watch a few lessons, and I say, the best thing to do is get down the boxing gym.

我曾和泰拳世界冠军同在一个训练馆，课后我会坐着听他们击打的声音，聆听接触时的声响。

I was in a gym with Thai boxers that were world champions, and I would sit afterwards by lessons, and I would sit and listen to the strike and listen to the sound of contact.

那感觉截然不同。

It's different.

是啊。

Yeah.

没错。

Yeah.

完全不同。

Different.

去听听那高音调的‘乒’声和‘乓’声。

Go listen to the high pitch and the ping and the ping.

如果你和乔聊过，我常说的就是发球时的‘砰’声或击球时的‘乒’声。

And and if you talk to Joe about what I'll always say is the pop of the serve or the ping of contact.

我会问他，你感觉到了吗？

And I'll ask him, did you feel?

他会说，没有。

And he'll go, no.

我说，那就是了。

And I said, that's the one.

就是那个。

That's the one.

就是你感觉不到的那个，它就这样...这正是我一直找不到的，因为我动作总是太多。

The one you don't feel it, and it's just and it just and that's what I could never find because I was always moving too much.

我的身体一直在动。

My body was moving.

它想要动起来。

It wanted to move.

它想玩捉人游戏。

It wanted to play tag.

如果你想玩十五岁百万美元级别的捉人游戏，我就是你要找的人。

I'm the guy if you wanna play tag for a million dollars at fifteen, I'm your guy.

我动作快得能在你反应过来前就碰到你，但我不会停留在那里爆发。

I am tag you before you've even so quick and so fast and but I'm not gonna stay there and explode.

所以，是的，希望这多少解释了一点我为什么没能变得出色。

And so and so, yeah, I hope that sort of answers a little bit of a little bit why I didn't become good.

我觉得我的速度足够快。

I think I was quick enough.

我觉得我的机动性足够强，但我没能伤到任何人。

I think I was mobile enough, but I didn't hurt anybody.

我没能伤到任何人。

I didn't hurt anybody.

颇具讽刺意味的是，当我被要求坐下来专注于拳击时，我就这么做了。

Ironically enough, when I was told to sit sit down and settle in my punching and my boxing, that's what I did.

我的比赛从未打满全场。

My my fights never went the distance.

我总是能终结对手。

I always stop people.

甚至我都没刻意追求这种效果。

It was and I didn't even try to.

他们会惊叹：‘哇’

They'd say, wow.

‘你怎么获得这种力量的？’

How do you get that power?

我就回答：‘其实我也不太清楚’

And I say, I don't really know.

但我知道这种力量确实存在

But so I know that power.

但我知道在网球运动中，我会因为它的移动而过于兴奋

But I know that in tennis, I get too excited about the movement of it

过于兴奋

to get too excited.

很复杂，不是吗？

Complexity, isn't it?

这就是我们这项运动的复杂性，因为它同时也是一项跑步运动

That that is the complexity of our sport because it is a running sport as well.

作为一项跑步运动，我们还需要融入流畅性、平衡性、重心转移、击球动作，以及战术元素，还有一对一时所需的精神毅力和角斗士心态

And it's a running sport that we then need to bring the flow, the balance, the transference of weight, the strike, the and then the tactical element, and then the the the mental fortitude and gladiatorial mindset of going one against one.

就像，它融合了众多体育项目的元素，我认为这正是网球如此美丽的原因，但同时也是网球如此困难的原因

Like, there's there's so many elements from so many sports, which is which is what makes, I think, tennis so beautiful, but it's also what makes tennis so difficult as well.

让我稍微回溯一下，因为我认为这是个重点

Let me just go back because it's, I think, it's an important point.

你还提到过你父亲和你那次摔球拍的事

You you also talked about your dad with the the time that you bounced your racket.

在我的人生中有几个例子，当我父亲以某种方式对我说话时，回想起来他真是个天才，因为那些话从来不是即兴反应，也从不让人觉得是冲动之言。

And and I've got a couple of examples in my life of when my dad spoke to me in a certain way, and he he was he was a genius when I look back at it because it was never it was never reactive or never felt reactive.

作为三个孩子的父母，其中一个挑战就是不要情绪化地反应，避免表现出不该有的行为，比如大喊大叫之类的。

And I'm a parent of three, And one of the challenges as as a parent is to not just react emotionally and maybe show behavior that you shouldn't show, you know, shouting or whatever it might be.

但他曾与我进行过几次重要的对话，以至于我现在不仅能清晰地记起那些话？

But he had a couple of big conversations with me that was so I can I can not only hear them now?

我至今仍能感受到那些话语的力量。

I can feel them now.

明白吗？

You know?

或许我是个糟糕的家长，又或许现在糟糕的家长本来就很多。

Like, now maybe this is and I'm a rubbish parent, or maybe that there's a lot of rubbish parents around.

但感觉现在教育孩子——不仅是我们自己的孩子，还包括我们接触的所有孩子——这件事变得更具挑战性了。

But it feels like that is more challenging now our our children I I wanna ask you this as a coach because not just our children, but the children that we're dealing with.

他们现在被太多事物污染了，从抖音到Snapchat，从《爱情岛》到各种乱七八糟的东西。

There's they're so polluted with so many things now from from TikTok to Snapchat to Love Island to whatever it is.

外面的诱惑实在太多了。

There's so much out there.

你认为现在要创造那些有影响力的时刻是否更具挑战性？

Do you think it is more challenging now to have those impactful moments?

你可以直言不讳地回答。

Or and you can be brutal on this.

这是否算是一种逃避？说实话，我一边说一边也在反思。

Is that a cop out that I guess, as as I'm speaking, I'm having kind of a a reflection.

是否因为我们作为父母也被这个世界分散了注意力，导致对自身教育理念和传达的信息不够清晰？

Is it that maybe us as parents are more distracted and and less clear on maybe our philosophies and our messages because we're distracted with the world as well.

你明白我的意思吗？

You know?

但无论如何，我想说的是，这种注意力分散是否阻碍了我们创造那些重要时刻？

But either way, I guess, I'm saying is, is this distraction getting in the way and preventing us from having those moments?

我最后想探讨的是，是否因为我们孩子还小，他们尚未意识到某些对话的重要性，要等他们长大成人后才会明白？

And I guess my last option is is it that actually we don't realize yet the impact of certain conversations because our kids are kids and they won't they won't realize it until they're adults.

是的。

Yeah.

不。

No.

你说得很有道理，因为我确实有同感。

You make a good point there because I have yeah.

你有一群孩子，我也有。

You you've got a crew, and I've got a crew.

我有四个孩子，三个女儿和一个快15岁的儿子。

I've got four kids, and I've got, you know, three girls and a and a nearly 15 year old boy right now.

这真的很有趣，因为确实更困难。

And it's really it's really interesting because I have it's tougher.

我发现和儿子相处更难，因为我不想成为那种冲动、不动用我们作为教练所掌握技巧的傻瓜。

I find it tougher to deal with my son because I don't wanna be I don't wanna be that reactive idiot, basically, that doesn't use the skills that we have as a certainly as a coach.

有时我发现自己会对他感到沮丧，因为他在做一些我明知他应该做的事——毕竟我读过所有关于14、15岁男孩的文献。

And I find myself getting frustrated with him sometimes because, you know, he he's he's he's doing things which I I know I know he should be doing because I've read all the literature about 14, 15 year old boys.

我在球场上接触过很多14、15岁的男孩。

I've been on court with so many 14, 15 year old boys.

我经常在球场上。

I've been on court.

就像很多人对我说的，我现在和杰克以及杰克·德雷珀都保持着公开交流。

And that, if you like, a lot of people have said to me, like, you know, I I chat openly now with Jack and Jack Draper and I.

我们从他大约16岁开始相处了五年，我真心喜欢这孩子。

We spent, you know, five to sort of 16, and and and and I love the guy.

我待他如己出，我们之间有着深厚的网球情谊，彼此陪伴成长。

I love the guy like he's I like I love the guy like he's my kid, and and and I know that I know that it's mutual that we we have a lot of tennis love between us, and, you know, we spend a lot of time growing up with each other.

但奇怪的是，

And and but it's it's weird.

当不是自己孩子时，相处就容易得多。

When it's not your child, it's so much easier.

真的容易太多了。

It's so much easier.

当对象是杰克和乔时，我知道严厉的爱是真实存在的。

When it's Jack and Joe, I know that tough love is real.

严厉的爱就是严厉的爱，这是真实的。

Tough love is tough love is real.

我认为我能做到的一件事——我可以不从自我角度，而是纯粹以反思的视角来看待——就是我能保持绝对诚实，因为我代表的是一个残酷的世界。

And and I think the one of the things that I think I can do, and I and I I can look at it not sort of from a ego perspective, but just literally from a reflective perspective is I'm able to be as honest because I represent such a brutal world.

我代表ATP巡回赛。

I represent the ATP tour.

你在跟我开玩笑吗？

You are you kidding me?

是啊。

Yeah.

稍等一下。

Hold on a second.

如果你来找我说想成为职业球员，如果你带着那样的天赋、那样的能力、那样的内心猛兽来找我，伙计，我们绝不能失败。

If you're gonna come to me and you say you wanna be a player, if you're gonna come to me with that talent, with that ability, with that monster inside you, mate, we cannot we cannot fail.

我这话是发自肺腑的。

And I mean that from the bottom of my heart.

我们绝不会失败。

We will not fail.

我们绝不会失败。

We will not fail.

在我任内绝不允许。

Not on my watch.

在我任内绝不允许。

Not on my watch.

当我进入美国境内，跨越边境时，那块写满名字的告示牌几乎震撼了我。

And I'm almost struck by when you go into The States, when you go across the border, there's this sign now with all the names.

告示牌上写着'绝不让悲剧重演'，而文字本身是由所有在9·11事件中遇难者的名字组成的。

It's a sign made up saying not on my watch, and and and the writing is made up of all the people that that perished in nine eleven.

这就是国土安全部要传达的信息。

And so that's the message from Homeland Security.

在我的任期内，绝不允许任何人进入这个国家。

Not on my watch is anybody coming into this country.

这多少也是我的感受。

And that's a little bit how I feel.

哦，你想和我来一场对话？

Oh, you wanna have a session with me?

那你最好做好准备。

Now you better be ready.

保罗·登特，这位伟大的教练、教育家和我的导师，他总是说，'你要和贾斯汀对话了'。

And Paul Dent Paul Dent, great coach educator and mentor to me, he always says, oh, you're gonna have sessions with Justin.

你最好做好准备。

You better be ready.

你最好为情绪过山车做好准备。

You better be ready for the emotional roller coaster.

有时候这样很好，而且我觉得我正在进步。

And sometimes that's good, and I think I'm getting better.

我有点激动，今年我更多地与乔一起旅行，其中一个原因是他觉得——而且他很坦率地告诉我——你对我的心态有影响。

And and and I'm jumping a little bit, but one of the reasons I'm traveling more with Joe this year is that he feels and he's quite open to tell me, you have an impact on my mentality.

你对我的表现方式有影响。

You have an impact on the way I perform.

你具有影响力。

You have an impact.

你你你懂的。

You you you know.

你带来了改变。

You make a difference.

而他对我做了一些事。

And he did something to me.

丹，他对我做了一些事，我现在要试着告诉你，尽量不让自己情绪化。

He did something to me, Dan, which I'm gonna try and tell you now without without getting emotional.

但乔...乔和杰克是截然不同的人。

But Joe Joe is Joe is a different guy to Jack.

杰克·杰克就像一头怪物，一头毫不掩饰的野兽。

Jack Jack is like a a monster and a very explicit animal.

他年轻时，我是说，这家伙简直残暴。

When he was a youngster, I mean, the guy is brutal.

这家伙是个杀手。

The guy's a killer.

我从未在球场上遇到过如此渴望胜利的人，你会感觉到...老兄，你最好别搞砸，乔斯。

I've never been on court with a guy that wanted it so badly, and and you feel you you feel man, you better not get this you better not get this wrong, Joss.

和杰克同场竞技时，我总感到巨大的压力与荣幸，我真是太幸运了。

You'd be I always felt a little bit of great pressure and privilege to be on court with Jack, and and I'm so lucky.

而乔总是截然相反。

And Joe was always the opposite.

乔就像在说'这家伙太棒了'。

Joe was like, this guy's great.

他只需要知道自己有多优秀。

He just needs to know how great he is.

而我对乔的工作就是引导他发挥潜能。

And my job with Joe was to draw him out.

我对杰克的工作只是稍加修剪边缘，别让他说不。

My job with Jack was just to trim the edges and don't get no.

有时情况会有点失控，但我们现在会拥抱和解，你知道吗？和杰克在一起时，他会公开说：'要不是有这个家伙，我绝不可能取得现在的成就。'

And sometimes it used to tipple over a little bit and we'd have but now we come together and we hug like and he you know, it's not I'm I'm with Jack sometimes and he openly says, if it wasn't for this guy, there's no way there's no way I'm doing what I'm doing.

而我也对杰克说：'但如果没有你，我也绝不可能成为现在这样的教练。'

And and I say to Jack, but if it wasn't for you, I'm nowhere near the coach that that I would be either.

但乔在去年赢得美网后，当时他的状态并不算最好，这么说吧，他显然正坐在机场准备回家，却给我发了一条消息——我至今仍不敢相信那是乔·索尔兹伯里写的。

But Joe, after he won the US Open last year, and he was having not the best year, let's just say that, you know, he's obviously sitting at the airport about to come home, and he's written me a message, which which I still I I can't believe that Joe Salisbury wrote it.

他大致是说，你永远不知道我今天为了这场胜利付出了多么艰苦的努力。

He basically said, you never know you don't know how hard I had to fight for that victory today.

我只是想告诉你，我拼尽了这辈子所有的力气去战斗。

You I just wanna let you know that I had to fight as hard as I've ever fought in my life.

他还说，这一切都是因为你。

And he said, and that's from you.

贾斯特，这都归功于你。

That's from you, Just.

没有你，我根本做不到这些。

And and and I wouldn't have been I wouldn't have been able do without you.

丹，让我感动的是，这无关我的自尊。

And I and I'm like and what was emotional, Dan, was because it wasn't my ego.

更重要的是，我注定要在这里帮助你。

It was more it was more, I'm destined to be here to help you.

我注定要帮助你成为那个人——不是我自己无法成为的人，而是为你而来。

I'm destined to help you become the person that not that I not that I couldn't become, but I'm here for you.

而你能感受到我是为你而来，这简直，天啊。

And and and the fact that you can feel that I'm here for you, I mean, come on.

天啊。

Come on.

是啊。

Yeah.

是啊。

Yeah.

我也有过那样的时刻。

I had I had a moment like that.

去年我和200个孩子及家长在一起时，杰克·德雷珀突然出现——因为我在萨里郡的职责之一就是创办锦标赛并运营会计项目，这样我就能举办杰克·德雷珀邀请赛。

And and I'm with 200 kids and parents last year, and Jack Draper turned up because as part of my role in Surrey is that get to invent tournaments and run the accounting program so I can have the Jack Draper Invitational Tournament.

杰克，猜猜谁会来？

And Jack, guess who's gonna be here?

杰克·德雷珀要来啦。

Jack Draper's gonna be here.

嗯哼。

Mhmm.

于是他在锦标赛结束时出现，和所有家长孩子们交谈。

So he turns up at the end of the tournament, he talks to all the parents and the kids.

然后他突然说道：听着，各位。

And then out of nowhere, he just says, listen, guys.

趁大家都在这里，我想说，就是这位，就是这位。

While you're all here, I just wanna say, this guy right here, this guy here.

我并没有看向...呃，比如说我自己。

And I'm not looking at well, like me.

然后他说，就是这位。

And he goes, this guy.

如果你想变得优秀，就需要找到像他这样的人。

If you're gonna be good, you need to find a guy like this guy.

好吗？

Okay?

如果你想有机会，就得找到这个人。

If you're gonna have a chance, you need to find this guy.

没有这个人，我什么都不是。

Without this guy, I'm no one.

我当时就想，天啊，这种时刻真的让人难忘。

And I'm like again, you just have these moments, man.

而且，你知道吗？

And and it and do you know what?

你需要他们在路上，因为如果你得不到他们，这将是一个只有付出、付出、付出的残酷世界。

You need them along the way because if you don't get them, it's a pretty brutal world of just giving, giving, giving.

而且不仅仅是获得一点兴奋感，而是得到反馈。

And and not just getting back a buzz, but getting feedback.

得到反馈。

Getting feedback.

一个20岁，你知道，22岁的年轻人，现在能够表达自己，处于行业顶端，能够回顾并分享。

A a 20, you know, 22 year old guy that can now express himself and he's at the top of the game is able to look back and share.

想象一下，他能在我面前与一群人分享我对他有多重要，这对他意味着什么。

Imagine what it does to him that he can share with a group of people in front of me how much I meant.

再想象一下我接下来会做什么。

And imagine what I then go on to do.

想象一下，当我带着下一个合作者走上球场时，这种涟漪效应对我意味着什么。

Imagine what that ripple does for me when I go on court with the next guy I'm working with.

想象一下这让我作何感受。

Imagine how that makes me feel.

想象一下我能与你分享这些，也能与倾听的人们分享。

Imagine the fact that I can share this with you, and I can share it with people that are listening.

我可以与那些怀疑这种事是否会发生在自己身上、或怀疑自己能否感受到这些的教练们分享。

I can share it with coaches that are wondering if that's ever gonna happen to them or if they're ever gonna feel that.

而我告诉你，坚持到底。

And I'm telling you, stick it out.

做好你的工作。

Do your work.

保持坚韧。

Stay tough.

忠于自我。

Stay true to yourself.

保持真实，人们将深切地感受到你的本质。

Be authentic, and people will feel you to their roots.

直抵他们内心深处的感受。

To their root feel you.

所以，我希望这能大致表达出我想传达的内容。

So, you know, I hope that just encompasses a little bit of what I'm trying to put out there.

完全同意。

Absolutely.

就是那样。

That.

但对我儿子来说很难，因为我不想让他成为我的网球选手。

But it's tough with my own son because I don't want him to be my tennis player.

我不想让他...我只是不能...

I don't want him to I can't just Does

他有在打球吗？

he does he play?

没有。

No.

他不打球。

He doesn't play.

他打球他打球，但我特别开心我的孩子们都不打网球，因为当我当教练时，有时候连我自己都不喜欢自己。

He plays he plays and I'm so happy that I'm so happy that none of my kids play tennis because I don't like me sometimes when I coach.

就像《无敌浩克》里的比尔·比克斯比那样。

It's like, you know, Bill Bixby from the Hulk.

你知道的，别惹我生气。

You know, don't make me angry.

你不会喜欢我生气的样子。

You wouldn't like me when I'm angry.

明白吗，别让我来当你的教练。

You know, don't make me coach you.

你不会一直喜欢我的。

You're not gonna like me all the time.

你不会一直喜欢我的。

You're not gonna like me all the time.

但我想你会理解我的。

But I think you're gonna feel me.

我认为如今要回答你的问题，需要巨大的转变才能让人们远离抖音、远离《爱情岛》、远离各种幻想游戏、远离他们的PlayStation。

And I think nowadays, an answer to your question, it takes such a big shift to move people away from TikTok, from Love Island, from fantasy this, fantasy that, from playing on their PlayStations.

而我专注的是促成人们的转变。

And what I'm about is making shifts in people.

我认为我能让人们改变，我能推动他们，

I think I can make people shift, and I can move them,

而且

and

我能推动团队前进。

I can move and I can move teams.

我能让事情发生。

I can make shit happen.

这就是我重视自己能做到的事。

And that's what I value myself on doing.

我不知道这种能力从何而来，但我知道有些很酷的影响存在。

And I don't know where it comes from, but I know that there's been some cool influences.

大卫·西姆斯、艾伦·琼斯，你们太棒了。

David Sims, Alan Jones, you guys rock it.

路易斯·卡娅，没有路易斯·卡娅，我就什么都不是。

Louis Kaia, without Louis Kaia, I'm no one.

没有路易斯·卡娅，我就什么都不是。

Without Louis Kaia, I'm no one.

没有路易斯，我从未遇到过让我觉得自己一生都一无所知的人。

Without Louis, I never met anyone that made me feel so like I knew nothing in my life.

就像我运动一样。

Like I sport.

对吧？

Right?

太棒了。

Amazing.

是啊。

Yeah.

噢，别这样。

Oh, come on.

而且你得听着。

And and you need listen.

如果你生命中还没有一个能让你觉得自己一无所知的人，那就更用心去找。

If if you don't have anybody in your life that's gonna make you feel that you know nothing, look harder.

更用心去找。

Look harder.

寻找比你懂得更多的人。

Search for someone that knows more than you.

永远别以为自己什么都懂。

Don't think that for once know it.

对吧？

Right?

有几点让我印象深刻，首先，感谢你的分享，因为那非常有力，你所分享的内容。

There's there's a couple there's a couple of things jumping out for me, and and, firstly, thank you for sharing because that that was that's powerful, the the stuff that you're sharing there.

我坐在那里听得起鸡皮疙瘩。

I I sat there with goosebumps there.

所以非常感谢你分享这些。

So thank you so much for for sharing that.

第二点是，我们身处一个即时满足的世界，但作为网球教练，我们所做的恰恰相反。

The the second one is we're not in a world we are in a world of instant gratification, but what we do as tennis coaches is the opposite.

你知道吗？

You know?

而你收到这些反馈是在十五、十六、十七、二十年后。

And it's it's those messages that you're getting fifteen, sixteen, seventeen, twenty years later.

明白吗？

You know?

所以我们不可能是为了自我满足而做这行，年轻教练们要记住这点，就像你说得那么好，保持真实，日复一日地投入，回报终会到来。

So so it can't it can't be that we're in it for ego and any young coaches listening lose that, you know, and, like, you say so well, you know, staying true to yourself, you know, and and putting it in day in, day out, and the rewards will come.

明白吗？

You know?

别再试图规划整个路线，为了达到某个目标而刻意打某种比赛。

Stop trying to map this whole thing out and play a certain game to get to somewhere.

懂吗？

You know?

坚持做正确的事，即时满足在我们这项运动中是不会发生的。

Do do do do the right things, and instant gratification is not is not the thing that happens in our sports.

现在第二点让我印象深刻的是，我能感受到你强大的能量，非常强大。

Now the the the second thing that jumps out is I can feel your energy strong, really strong.

你是如何平衡网球教练工作的？要知道很多网球教练岗位的工作量——我记得自己每周要在球场上工作55到60小时，每小时面对不同的球员。

How have you navigated being a tennis coach who again, a lot of tennis coaching jobs could be I remember doing fifty five, sixty hours a week on court, you know, different player every hour.

这确实是个挑战，对吧？要能做到这样。

You know, it's it's a challenge, right, at being able to do that.

所以我想问个双管齐下的问题。

So I guess a two pronged question.

第一，在你的执教生涯中，你每周平均在球场上工作多少小时？又是如何每次都能为球员带来独特能量，确保每节训练课都充满活力而不至于精疲力竭？

One, in your coaching, how many hours have you done over the years on court per week, and how have you been able to bring that unique energy to that one off session that that player is having with you every single time without crashing and burning?

是的。

Yeah.

我觉得这是个非常好的问题。

I think that's a really good question.

首先，让我告诉你我目前的状况。

Well, first of all, let me let me tell you where I'm at right now.

我是自由职业者。

I'm self employed.

我不为任何人工作。

I don't work for anybody.

我为自己的价值观工作。

I work for my values.

我为自己的理念工作，而且我状态非常糟糕。

I work for my philosophies, and I am horrific.

我也曾做过几份受雇于人的工作。

I've done a couple of jobs where I've been employed.

但都做不长久。

I don't last very long.

不是因为我不懂顺从——要知道你带我回家见家长时，我能表现得像个模范好男人。

And not because I don't know how to conform, because because you can take me home to, you know, take me home to to meet mom, and I'm and I'll be as nice I'll be the nice guy.

只是觉得那种状态像被困住一样。

But I just feel like I'm trapped.

感觉无法做真实的自己。

Feel like I can't be myself.

不能成为那个清晨醒来就充满能量的人。

I can't be the guy that wakes up in the morning and says, I've got all this energy.

虽然不知该如何释放，但总得找个出口宣泄。

I don't know how I'm gonna unleash it, but I need to unleash it somewhere.

所以当我拥有这种动力和自律时——天啊，这世上能有几份工作配得上这样的状态？

So I think that when I've got this when I've got this motivation and and discipline I mean, gee, how many jobs are there?

我得到了一份郡县绩效经理的工作，他们突然找上了我。

I got a job as the county performance manager, and they came from nowhere.

我得到这份工作是因为我是最热情的那个。

I I I got the job because I was the most enthusiastic.

嗯。

Yep.

而且我做了功课。

And I did my homework.

我摸清了所有门道。

I found out everything.

如果你想在网球界找工作，最好先了解政治。

And if you wanna get a job in tennis, you better understand the politics.

最好搞清楚郡县运作的规则。

You better understand how the counties work.

最好明白委员会如何运作。

You better understand how committees work.

你最好确保自己知道谁在管理委员会，这不是为了游说，而是出于对他们的尊重。

You better make sure you know who runs the committees, and not because you're gonna do any lobbying, but because you need to give them respect.

英国网球界是个有趣的小圈子。

British tennis is a funny little animal.

但如果你想做自己——如果你想保持独立人格，既要与人相处融洽，又要坚持自我，同时还不惹恼太多人，这很困难。

But if you wanna be your own if you wanna be your own person, it's difficult to get along, be your own person, and piss too many people off.

我看到太多人试图成为错误的角色，试图当错误的教练，结果四面树敌。

I see too many people trying to be the wrong man, trying to be the wrong coach, and they just make enemies left, right, and center.

他们交友方式完全错误——要用正确的方式待人，忠于自我，才能开辟自己的天地。

They just do it the wrong make friends, do it the right do it the right way, be true to yourself, and carve out.

听着。

Look.

如果负责女子晨练，就把这该死的晨练办成最棒的。

If it's ladies mornings that you've gotta run, run the best goddamn ladies mornings.

如果周日晚要组织男子比赛训练，就把它做到极致。

If it's men's match practice that you've got a run on Sunday night, make it the best.

确保所有人都知道你是最棒的。

Make sure everybody knows that you're the best.

确保每个人都知道你的名声。

Make sure everyone knows about your reputation.

你只需要几个会员说你是个懒人。

All you need is a couple of members saying that you're a lazy guy.

无论如何你都会丢掉工作。

You're gonna lose your job anyway.

网球总教练不会对留用一个让会员不满的人感兴趣。

The tennis head head tennis coach is not gonna be too interested in keeping someone in that doesn't keep members happy.

我曾是圣乔治山俱乐部的首席教练。

I've been head pro at St.

我讨厌那份工作。

George's Hill, and I hated it.

我极其厌恶那种让你像行尸走肉般游荡的环境。

I absolutely hated these environments where you walk around like zombies.

大家都穿着同样的制服。

Everyone wears the same kit.

你在开玩笑吧。

You are kidding me.

我讨厌网球。

I hate about tennis.

我爱圣乔治俱乐部。

I love Saint George's.

那里有美味的周日午餐。

It's got a beautiful does a beautiful Sunday lunch.

如果你想享用周日午餐，那里很棒。

If you ever wanna go for Sunday lunch, beautiful.

但那种氛围、环境，那种令人窒息的本质。

But the atmosphere, the environment, the claustrophobic nature.

我知道我在和一个在另一个国家经营自己学院的人说话。

And I know I'm talking to a guy that runs his own academy in another country.

所以如果有人明白我在说什么，看看这个。

So anyone understands what I'm talking about, look at this.

你是你自己的主人。

You're your own man.

所以如果你希望我们的球员做自己，那你自己先做到。

So if you want our players to be their own man, go be your own.

去做你自己。

Go be your own.

但我也追随过很多人。

But I also followed a lot of people.

我参加过很多训练课程。

I went I finished a lot of sessions.

我完成工作后，就会去查科林·比彻的球场训练时间。

I finished where I was while working, and then I'd go find out what time Colin Beecher was on court.

我会去坐着听科林·比彻讲课。

I go sit and listen to Colin Beecher.

他甚至不知道我在听他执教。

He didn't even know I was listening to him coach.

这些人为英国网球付出了巨大努力。

These guys had put hard yards into British tennis.

我会去听尼克·惠尔讲上好几个小时。

I'd go and listen to Nick Wheel for hours.

当尼克·惠尔执教时，我坐在球场后面假装和别人说话。

I sit behind the court when Nick Wheel was coaching and pretend to be talking to someone.

我听到惠尔说：再来一球。

I'm listening to Wheeler saying, one more ball.

再来一球。

One more ball.

交叉。

Cross.

就这样。

That's it.

是的。

Yeah.

40次斜线球。

40 cross.

就是那个。

That yeah.

再来一球。

One more ball.

再来一球。

One more ball.

听比奇的谈话，试图从马克·希尔顿或他合作的人身上挖掘出最佳状态，寻找突破口。

And listen to Beach talk and get the best out of Mark Hilton or get the best out of someone he was working with trying to find a way.

看。

Look.

加油。

Come on.

这样很好。

That's good.

这样很好。

That's good.

你知道的，这很棒，而且能真正听到实质性的指导。

You know, it's nice and and really listening to real coaching.

我对教练培训有些意见，丹。

I've got an issue with coach education, Dan.

我认为它已经变成了一门生意。

I think it's turned into a business.

我觉得它已经变成了这种疯狂的生意。

I think it's turned to this crazy business.

如果你不够谨慎，就会迷失在参加培训课程的商业循环中。

And if you're not careful, you get lost in the business of attending coaching sessions.

而且，我...我有几个我在指导的学员。

And and I I I I've got a couple of guys I mentor.

我说，请务必完成你的执照学分，但之后要坐到场边去。

I say, please do your license points by all means, but then go sit behind the court.

确保没人知道这件事。

Make sure no one know thing.

这才是真正的执教之道。

That's real coaching.

这才是真正的执教之道。

That's real coaching.

走进有世界冠军坐镇的拳击馆，听听那些真实坦诚的对话。

Go into a boxing gym with world champions and listen to the real honest chats that go on.

别听尼尔·沃诺克在中场休息时指导足球队。

Don't listen to Neil Warnock coach a football team at halftime.

别听其他体育项目的指导。

Don't listen to other sports.

别听人们如何与人类建立联系。

Don't listen to how people connect with human beings.

没关系。

Doesn't matter.

或者如果你无法建立联系，你就完蛋了，人们会看穿你。

Or if you can't connect, you're screwed, and people will suss you out.

人们会看穿你的。

People will suss you out.

乔仍然那样看着我，就像我说，是的，那是个不错的发球。

Joe still looks at me like like, if I say, yeah, was quite a good serve.

他会再次看着我说，是的。

He'll look at me again and go, yeah.

但为什么它不够好呢？

But why wasn't it very good?

然后我说，哦，因为你没要求它必须非常好。

And I go, oh, because you didn't ask it to be very good.

你只是问，它好吗？

Just said, was it good?

然后我会说，是的。

And I'll go, yeah.

还不错。

It was okay.

就在那个范围内。

It's in the ballpark.

他说，我我想达到那个标准。

He goes, I I wanna be in the ballpark.

好的。

Okay.

现在我们开始有共识了。

So now we're talking.

所以你从我这里感受到了那相当不错的感觉。

So you you got that vibe from me that it was quite good.

我只是需要从你那里知道你想达到非常棒的标准。

I just needed to know from you that you wanted to go to very good.

如果你想做，我就是你要找的人。

If you wanna do, I'm your guy.

我们开始吧。

Let's go.

所以，完全痴迷的一部分——不是追求完美，而是追求你内心真正在意的东西——就是掌控那些该死的可控因素。

So part of being completely outrageously obsessed, not with perfection, but with something that you will is close to your heart is controlling the goddamn controllables.

如果你没有拼尽全力，那你就是在跟我开玩笑。

If you're not working your butt off, you're you're kidding me.

对吧？

Right?

我们就此打住吧。

You we're we're gonna stop right there.

你知道吗，如果你还没问我问题，我们过去的一些讨论，我和杰克、乔这些年来的对话，其实就是在了解你是谁，伙计。

You know, if if you haven't asked me a question, some of the discussions that we've had, I've had with Jack and Joe over the years are just finding out who you are, mate.

你是谁。

Who you are.

你是谁，我们能把这推到多远？

Who you are and how far can we push this thing?

我们能推进到什么程度？

How far can we push this?

所以我想推进我的教练事业。

So I wanna push my coaching.

我还没结束呢。

I'm not done yet.

我今年54岁了。

I'm 54 this year.

我感觉自己同样健壮、同样健康。

I feel as fit and as strong and as healthy.

这也是我想对其他教练说的。

And that's the other thing I would say to coaches too.

如果你不保持健康，你就完了。

If you don't stay fit, you're dead.

如果你不保持状态，如果你不照顾好自己，你基本上就废了。

If you don't stay if you don't look after yourself, you do you kinda you're kinda dead.

你会失去活力。

You're gonna lose your energy.

而且...如果在巡回赛辛苦一天后，你都不能去健身房，这很有意思。

And and and if if you can't don't don't go in the gym at the end of a hard day on the tour, you know, it's interesting.

我可以在维也纳这样的地方，经过漫长的一天后，晚上11点还在健身房。

I can be in the gym at, you know, Vienna or something at 11:00 at night after a long day.

我在那里看到一些大牌教练。

I see some big coaches in there.

哦，达伦·凯尔。

Oh, Darren Cale.

哦，你好啊达伦。

Oh, hello, Darren.

最近怎么样，老兄？

How are you doing, buddy?

你知道吗？

You know?

他正在听。

And he's listening.

我说，好吧，你这个年纪怎么还在听？

I'm going, well, how are listening at your age?

他说，嗯，你表现得也不错。

He goes, well, you're doing pretty good as well.

所以就像，你知道的，体育运动中那种全力以赴的心态是很残酷的，我们需要保持一点狠劲，丹。

So it's like, you know, it's that all in mentality of sport is brutal, so we need to there needs to be a little bit of brutality about us, Dan.

确实需要这样。

There really does.

贾斯汀，对我来说，你简直完美体现了那些我自己非常看重、也渴望在教练身上看到的价值观。

Justin, you're like the you for me, you're you're you're you're nailing so many of the values that that that I have myself that I love to see in in a coach.

我一点都不意外，因为这不仅仅关乎网球。

And it's absolutely no surprise to me that you've it's not just about tennis.

对吧？

Right?

你已经...你已经去讨论过这件事了。

It's it's you you've you've gone and you've talked about it.

杰克·德雷珀，乔·索尔兹伯里。

Jack Draper, Joe Salisbury.

杰克·德雷珀，世界前20。

Jack Draper, top 20.

他将成为世界前十的选手。

We he's gonna be a top 10 player in the world.

要知道，他可是正在崛起的超级新星。

You know, he's a he's a superstar in the making.

乔·索尔兹伯里，多次大满贯冠军得主，世界第一，一路走来。

Joe Salisbury, multiple grand slam champion, world number one, you know, gone along this journey.

而你始终是这些征程中的不变因素。

And you have been a constant in those journeys.

与你交谈，这并不令人意外。

And and and speaking to you, it's no surprise.

能在那段旅程中始终如一，并非因为你是发球专家。

And and to be a constant in that journey, that's not because you're a serve doctor.

要知道，发球专家无法在人们十五到二十年的旅程中持续存在，真正的羁绊、真实的关系和真挚的联系才能做到。

You know, the serve doctors don't last in people's journeys for fifteen, twenty years, you know, like real shit does, you know, and real relationships and real connection.

这一点正清晰响亮地传达出来。

And and that's coming through loud and clear.

有件事我本想问你，但感觉你已回答了——在教练行业，人们常被标签化，而我最受不了的就是被称为‘表现教练’。

One of the things I did wanna ask you, but I kind of feel like you've answered it is, in in coaching, people do get pigeonholed, and and and my pet oh, like, it makes me cringe, pet peeve, is I'm a I'm a performance coach.

懂吗？

You know?

我不干那个。

I don't do that.

我是表现本身。

I'm a performance.

你知道吗？

You know?

别那么高高在上。

Get off your get off your absolute high horse.

但分类现象是——有人专门执教10岁以下选手，有人执教特定年龄段，有人只教男孩不教女孩，或只教女孩等等。这种单一分类很容易形成，无论是哪种形式。

But the the the pigeon the pigeon hauling is that someone coaches someone under 10 or someone then coaches someone between these ages or someone coaches boys and they don't coach girls or someone coaches girls and and and it can be quite easy to have that as singles and doubles, you know, what whatever it might be.

那你是如何应对这种情况的？

So how have you managed that?

因为在这个过程中肯定遇到过挑战——比如回想你刚开始带乔的时候，应该还算是个年轻教练吧？

Because there there must have been some challenges along the way as as you're going through that from, I guess, if we go back to, you know, Joe, I guess, you were relatively young coach when you started with Joe.

这些转型期你是怎么处理的？

So how have you managed those shifts?

毕竟不同阶段需要不同的指导方式。

Because there is shifts, and they need different things at different times.

我记得杰克在播客里提到，有次他突然到场，当时应该是你在执教，还布置了迷你网球场地。

I remember Jack saying, actually, when I spoke to him on the pod, he said he remembers one day just rocking up, and I'm pretty sure you would have been the coach at the time, and you'd set the mini tennis court out.