简佩雷斯眼中的北京

ABC收听，播客、广播、新闻、音乐等。

ABC Listen, podcasts, radio, news, music, and more.

简·皮拉兹是一位澳大利亚籍记者，自幼便渴望走出家门，探索世界，了解其运行机制。

Jane Pillaz is an Australian born journalist who from an early age wanted to go out and see the world and figure out how it worked.

还在大学期间，简就随一批学生代表团前往中国。

And while still at uni, Jane went with a delegation of students to China.

这或许听起来不算什么大事，但那一年是1967年，中国正深陷毛泽东文化大革命的动荡混乱之中。

Now this might not seem like such a big deal, except the year was 1967, and China was right in the middle of the roiling chaos of Mao's Cultural Revolution.

红卫兵在街头游行。

Red Guards were marching through the streets.

古老的寺庙正被摧毁。

Old temples were being destroyed.

数百万人被送往再教育营。

Millions of people were being sent to reeducation camps.

历史在简眼前展开，从那以后，她坚定了成为一名记者的决心。

History was unfolding before Jane's eyes, and after that, she knew she absolutely wanted to be a journalist.

简搬到了纽约，最终在《纽约时报》找到了工作。

Jane relocated to New York and eventually got a job with the New York Times.

她曾报道过非洲、印度尼西亚和巴基斯坦的新闻，后来被派往中国——那是一个与她当年作为学生访问时截然不同的中国。

She's reported from Africa, Indonesia, and Pakistan, and then she was posted to China, a very different China to the one she visited as a student all those years ago.

简成为《纽约时报》北京分社的社长，报道了我们这个时代最重要的新闻：中国作为经济和军事超级大国的复兴，以及其作为美国竞争对手的崛起。

Jane became the chief of the New York Times Bureau in Beijing, covering the biggest story of our time, the reemergence of China as an economic and military superpower and a rival to The United States.

简后来共同创建了一部关于中国神秘领导人习近平的杰出播客系列，并即将推出一部名为《对峙：中国vs美国》的新播客。

Jane has since co created an outstanding podcast series on China's enigmatic leader, Xi Jinping, and she's got a new podcast called Face Off China versus The US coming out soon.

你好，简。

Hello, Jane.

嗨，理查德。

Hi, Richard.

很高兴能在这里与你在悉尼相聚。

Good to be here with you in Sydney.

简，你是在悉尼的哪个地方长大的？

Where in Sydney did you grow up, Jane?

哦，这个地方叫隆纳维尔，很多人没听说过。

Oh, this place called Longaville, which many people haven't heard of.

但它实际上离城市很近，位于以前被称为下北岸的地区。

But it's actually quite close to the city on what used to be called the Lower North Shore.

战后那几年，那里的生活是什么样的？

What was it like in those days in the postwar years?

那里是不是绿树成荫、富裕而宁静？

Was it leafy and prosperous and quiet?

当时就是这些样子，我想现在甚至更甚了。

It was all those things, and I guess it's become even more so now.

你的家庭和当地其他家庭有什么不同？

How different was your family to the other families in the area?

哦，很不一样。

Oh, quite different.

我父亲是匈牙利移民，1939年离开匈牙利，意识到作为一个年轻的匈牙利犹太人，在即将爆发的战争中很难有前途。他来到澳大利亚，我想是为了尽可能远离那里，后来在墨尔本的网球场上遇见了我母亲。

My father was a Hungarian emigre who left Hungary in 1939, figuring out that a young Jewish Hungarian wasn't going to get very far in the war that was about to break out, And he came to Australia, I think, to get as far away as possible, and he met my mother on a tennis court in Melbourne.

而她有苏格兰背景，但非常与众不同。

And she was of a Scottish background but very how can one say different.

她父亲基本上是个无神论者，喜欢H.G.威尔斯，相当独立且特立独行。

Her father was basically an atheist, HG Wells fan, quite independent and idiosyncratic if you like.

所以他们的父母非常不同。

So they were quite different parents.

他们结婚后，我父亲回到了匈牙利。

They married, my father went back to Hungary.

在战后初期吗？

In the immediate postwar years?

绝对是战后立刻就回去了。

Absolutely immediate.

1946年。

1946.

他回去是因为听说，尽管俄国人已经占领了那里，他仍然可以回去收回家族的袜子工厂。

He went back because he got word that even though the Russians were there, that he could come back and reclaim the family sock factory.

所以他回去了，你猜怎么着？

So he went back, and guess what?

他被俄国人关进了监狱。

He was thrown into jail by the Russians.

我母亲随后赶来，我不知道是几周后还是几个月后。

And my mother was following and landed, I don't know, a couple of weeks later, months later.

她以前从未离开过澳大利亚，却发现自己新婚的丈夫被关在狱中。

She'd never been out of Australia before, and she finds her new husband in jail.

但他们在这一点上很幸运。

But they were lucky in this sense.

我父亲的母亲非常精明，人脉广泛，那时她家阁楼上正住着一位俄国军官。

My father's mother was very wily, very well connected, and by this stage, she had a Russian captain staying in the attic of the house.

靠着这些关系，我想，再加上一些钱，她把父亲救出了监狱，父母二人逃往了瑞士。

And so with those connections, I guess, and some money, she got my father out of jail, and my father and mother fled to Switzerland.

实际上，我不是在澳大利亚出生的，我是在离开匈牙利途中，于伦敦出生的。

Actually, I'm not Australian born because I was born on the way out of Hungary in London.

对。

Right.

所以你实际上是在途中出生的，在这里和那里之间的某个地方。

So you were born in the transit lounge effectively, somewhere between here and there.

没错。

Exactly.

太棒了。

Oh, that's fantastic.

这意味着你，我想，是在两个背景迥异但都像是自由思想者的人身边长大的。

So that meant you, I suppose, grew up with a couple of, even though they come from very different backgrounds, they sound like they were both free thinkers.

这样描述你的父母合适吗？

Is that a good way to describe your words?

我觉得是的。

Oh, think so.

你这么一说，确实是。

Yes, now you mention it.

我记得有一份奇怪的报纸送到朗阿维尔家，叫《理性主义者》。

I remember this strange paper coming to the house in Longaville, The Rationalist.

我不知道那是什么时候的事了，但总之我记得。

I wonder how long ago that was, but anyway, I remember that.

《经济学人》当时是通过电子邮件纸质版送达的，我记得自己大概十一二岁时，坐在后门廊上读《时代》杂志。

The Economist used to come on what was then email paper, and I can remember as I don't know, maybe 11 or 12 years old sitting out on the back porch reading Time Magazine.

是的。

Right.

你是被父母鼓励去关注世界，还是你本来就这样？

So you were encouraged to be worldly by your parents or you were just like that anyway?

我觉得我不需要太多鼓励，但当时的氛围与朗阿维尔其他地方以及北岸的其他地方截然不同，我敢说非常不同。

I don't think I needed much encouragement, but the atmosphere was very different, shall we say, the rest of Longaville and to the rest of the North Shore very very very different I would say.

有一位邻居，她叫玛乔丽·巴纳德。

There was a neighbor her name was Marjorie Barnard.

她是一位杰出的澳大利亚历史学家，著有《麦克夸里世界》和《澳大利亚简史》。

She was a wonderful historian of Australia Macquarie's World, Short History of Australia.

她也是一位小说家。

She was also a novelist.

她有一位伴侣，我记得叫恩肖，她们合写了《明天与明天与明天》和《房子的建造》。

She had a partner, think her name was Earnshaw and they wrote Tomorrow and Tomorrow and Tomorrow, House is Built.

我是说那种老式的澳大利亚小说。

I mean sort of old Australian novels.

然后她住在隔壁，我会去拜访她，她总坐在前廊的藤椅上，拿着写字板手写她的书。

And then she lived next door and I would go and visit and she would be sitting on the front veranda with a legal pad handwriting her books.

她头发灰白，四周头发平贴着。

It's gray hair, flat around the hair.

玛乔丽坐在门廊上的形象令人印象深刻。

Very indelible image of Marjorie sitting on the veranda.

然后她和薇拉住在一起。

And then she lived with Vera.

我当时从未真正了解或明白她们是否是一对活跃的女同性恋伴侣。

I never really knew at the time or understood whether they were an active lesbian couple or not.

我不知道，反正从来没在谈话中提到过。

I don't know, just never really figured in conversation.

但谈话中提到的是，他们经常邀请很棒的晚餐客人，包括帕特里克·怀特。

But what did figure in the conversation was they had great dinner party guests, including Patrick White.

所以我妈回来就会说，猜猜怎么着？

So my mother would come back and say, Oh, guess what?

我们昨晚见到帕特里克·怀特了。

We met Patrick White last night.

羊肉有点干，但谈话很有趣。

The lamb was a little dry, but the conversation was interesting.

不过别夸大其词，你觉得这对你来说是个榜样吗？

Without overstating it too much, do you think that was a model for you though?

这是否意味着女性也可以成为作家？

Is it kind of like a woman could be a writer?

女性也可以从事写作并以此谋生？

A woman could do this and make a living from this?

也许吧。

Maybe.

也许吧。

Maybe.

我从未真正想过自己想成为作家，但我觉得她是一个很好的榜样，因为她写了非常出色的史学作品。

I never really thought that I wanted to be a writer per se, but I think she was a great example because she wrote really exemplary history.

我的意思是，我记得读过麦克夸里写的《麦克夸里的世界》，内容很生动。

I mean, I remember MacQuarrie's reading MacQuarrie's world, and it was lively.

它相当简短。

It was rather short.

它主要塑造了一个大人物——麦克夸里总督。

It had one big character, Governor MacQuarrie.

它绝对不矫揉造作。

It certainly wasn't fussy.

所以她能让事物活起来，我想这一定非常有吸引力。

So she was able to make things come alive, and I think that must have been quite attractive.

你当学生的时候是什么样子？

And what were you like as a student?

哦，我还行。

Oh, I was okay.

我的意思是，我挺不错的。

I mean, I was pretty good.

我的意思是，我去的是阿博茨利，我想我是靠奖学金进去的。

I mean, I went to Abbotsley, and I think I got in on a scholarship.

你知道，我父母出生时没给我登记在册，所以我得靠自己的本事进去，我相信我是凭实力被录取的。

You know, my parents didn't write me down in the book when I was born, so I sort of had to get in on my merits, and I got in on merit, I believe.

因为你16岁就高中毕业了，那在当时算很年轻了吧？

Because you graduated from high school when you were 16, that was young for then, wasn't it?

确实挺年轻的。

It was quite young.

所以当我16岁的时候，我觉得自己去上大学还是太年轻了，于是申请了美国田野服务奖学金去了美国，我真的很幸运，因为根据这个奖学金，你会被安排到一个家庭住一年，而我本可能被派到任何地方，对吧？

So when I was 16, said to myself, well, a bit young to go to university right away, so I went on an American field service scholarship to The United States, and I was really lucky because under this scholarship, you went and lived with a family for a year, and I could have been put anywhere, right?

我本可能被安排在堪萨斯中部，那我会讨厌死的，但他们做得非常好。

I could have been put in the middle of Kansas, and I would have hated it, but they did a really great job.

我住在纽约市以北30英里的一户美国家庭里。

I lived with an American family 30 miles north of New York City.

我的美国父亲弗兰克是《美国遗产》的市场总监，这是一家高端历史杂志公司，他曾为《时代》杂志工作，而那是我刚到那里时最喜爱的杂志。

My American father, Frank, was the marketing director of American Heritage, which was a very upscale historical magazine company, and he'd worked for Time Magazine, my favorite magazine when I got there.

他的妻子海伦是妇女选民联盟的董事会成员，他们在1964年——那场大选之年——是典型的、思想狭隘的民主党人。

And Helen, his wife was on the board of League of Women's Voters, and they were very small, illiberal Democrats in 1964, which was the year of the great election.

约翰逊对戈德华特。

LBJ versus Goldwater.

那对我来说是一段非凡的经历。

So that was just an amazing experience for me.

我当时完全没在意高中。

And I paid no attention to high school.

我本该去上高中，于是我就去了。

I was supposed to go to high school, and I went.

普莱森特维尔高中，那还不错，但你知道，我大多数周末都会进城玩得很开心。

Pleasantville High School, and it was it was okay, but you know, I'd go most weekends into the city and have a great time.

在那个时期，纽约在某些方面开始变得有点糟糕。

New York was starting to sort of go a bit bad in some ways at that period.

这正好是之前

This is just pre

不。

No.

约翰·林赛是市长，那非常令人兴奋。

John Lindsay was the mayor, and it was very exciting.

我的意思是，我没住在里面。

I mean, didn't live in there.

我住在普莱森特维尔，所以我没有

I lived in Pleasantville, so I didn't

那叫普莱森特维尔？

It was called Pleasantville?

是的。

Yeah.

普莱森特维尔总部，也就是《读者文摘》，我们都瞧不起它。

Pleasantville headquarters, the Reader's Digest, which we all looked down our noses upon.

我们心想，《读者文摘》是什么东西？

We thought Reader's Digest, what's that?

你回到澳大利亚，进了悉尼大学，然后就去了中国，简。

You came back to Australia and started at Sydney University, and then you were off to China, Jane.

你去了中国，那是1967年，正值文化大革命中期。

You were off to China, this is 1967, and it's the middle of the Cultural Revolution.

当时，一群悉尼大学的学生是怎么设法进入中国的？

How on earth did a bunch of Sydney Uni students manage to get into China at that time?

我不知道。

I don't know.

也许当时共产党领导人泰德·希尔与国家旅行社关系不错。

Maybe Ted Hill, who was the leader of the Communist Party at the time, had good relations with the National Travel Association.

我认为那是中国那边的团体。

I think that was the group in China.

中国国家旅行社组织了我们的旅行。

China National Travel Association organized our trip.

那是全国大学生首次组织海外旅行的第一年，他们之前从未组织过，选择有印度尼西亚——太近了，印度——食物太差，容易生病，中国——最有趣。

It was the first year of the National University of Students having overseas trips, the first year they'd ever organized this, and the choice was Indonesia, too close India, terrible food, get too sick China, far the most interesting.

我们大约有50人。

And there were about 50 of us.

我认为我们所有人都不关心政治。

I think we were all apolitical.

我的意思是，没有任何激进分子，无论哪一方。

I mean, there weren't any rabble rousers one way or the other.

所以你们不是毛泽东主义的学生代表团？

So it wasn't a Maoist student delegation?

不，完全不是。

No, not at all.

我们不是红三代，就是一群背景各异的人。

We weren't red diaper kids, we were just a mixed bunch.

你们出发前对中国的了解有多少？

And what did you know about China before you left?

一无所知。

Nothing.

哇！

Wow!

我的意思是，这在高中根本不是热门话题。

I mean, wasn't exactly the favorite subject at high school.

那时候在澳大利亚，有什么关于中国的读物吗？

And what was there to read about China in those days in Australia?

我的意思是，当时讲的都是冷战、苏联、彼得罗夫间谍案，诸如此类的事情。

I mean, it was about the Cold War, and the Soviet Union, and the Petrov spy case, and all of that stuff.

关于中国，什么都没有。

Nothing about China.

我们根本不知道文化大革命正在发生。

And we had no idea that the Cultural Revolution was going on.

一点都不知道。

Not a clue.

所以我们坐的是三等舱，我永远忘不了，从悉尼到东京。

So we went steerage class, I'll never forget this, from Sydney to Tokyo.

我们在日本待了一周，然后从日本去香港，再坐火车越过边境进入广州。

We had a week in Japan, and we went from Japan to Hong Kong, and then you get the train over the border into Canton.

然后我们沿着海岸线坐火车，那种火车被称为‘牛奶线’。

And we went up the coast, what's called the milk run on a train.

苏州、上海、南京、北京，然后再原路返回。

Suzhou, Shanghai, Nanjing, Beijing, and then back down again.

上海是最疯狂的地方。

Shanghai was the craziest place.

文化大革命正在如火如荼地进行。

The Cultural Revolution was in full swing.

你看到了什么情况？

What did you see going on?

哦，人山人海。

Oh, zillions of people.

waterfront，外滩上人挨着人，挤得水泄不通。

The waterfront, the Bund was just shoulder to shoulder people.

不可思议。

Incredible.

我们被盯着看，简直像看怪物一样，因为当时那里根本没有西方人，但每个人都很好奇，非常有礼貌。

And we were stared at like crazy because of course there were no westerners there at the time, but everybody was very curious, very polite.

我们去了人民公社，去了工厂，到处都一片混乱。

We went to communes, we went to factories, everything was in chaos.

哪里都没人在工作。

No work anywhere.

我们去了一个公社，被要求拿锄头去地里挖土，锄地，我也不太明白为什么。

Went to a commune, and we dug, we were asked to dig, take hoes and dig in the fields, hoeing, I don't quite know why.

我们从来不知道明天会发生什么。

And we never knew what was going to happen from one day to the next.

这对你阶级意识有好处，简，这就是为什么你会被送到乡下某个糟糕的牧场。

It was going be good for your class consciousness, Jane, that's why, in some awful paddock somewhere in the countryside.

你看到红卫兵队伍了吗？

Did you see bands of red guards?

到处都是。

All over the place.

无处不在。

Everywhere.

和那些漫画里的一样吗？

Was it like the caricature?

他们是不是举着小红书列队行进？

Were they marching along waving little red books?

是的，当然。

Yes of course.

大喊大叫吗？

Shouting and chanting?

是的，那些不是 caricatures（漫画形象）。

Yes, those were not caricatures.

照片里看到的就是这样，那是真实的。

That's what you see in the photographs and that was real.

他们穿着卡其色制服，左肩上戴着红袖章。

And dressed in khaki uniforms with red band around their left shoulders.

当然，这是在城里，所以他们似乎在城里游行时过得相当愉快。

Of course, this was in the city, so they seemed to be having quite a good time parading around the city.

我认为在乡下情况不同，那里他们真的得干活。

I think it was different out in the countryside where they actually had to work.

你对这一面、这场 spectacle（表演）怎么看？

What did you make of that side, that spectacle?

它引起了你的兴趣，让你投入，还是让你感到恐惧？

Did interest you, engage you, or frighten you?

我们不太明白该怎么看待这件事，但不得不说，他们在对我们进行思想灌输方面做得很好。

We didn't know quite what to make of it, but we I have to say we I think they did a good job in indoctrinating us.

我的意思是，他们成功地说服了我们，认为这是必要的——我不知道我的50位同事怎么样，但我和另一位学生真的像我们现在这样录音，并制作了一份小册子。

I mean, they did a good job in persuading us that this was necessary to get I mean, I don't know about my 50 colleagues, but with another student, we actually taped just like we're taping here, and we made a little pamphlet.

这不止是一份小册子。

Well, it's more than a pamphlet.

那是一本书，用油印机印制，并在各大学之间分发。

Was a book which was mimeographed off and distributed around the universities.

当我回望那时，看到我们所做的采访，我们对他们的所作所为充满了同情。

When I look back at that and see the interviews that we conducted, we were so sympathetic what they were doing.

也许这只是我们为了让人愿意和我们交谈而采取的策略，但我们并没有持反对态度。

Maybe that was our guise of trying to get people to talk to us, but we were not argumentative.

你们去北京时，在中国首都见到了哪些要人？

When you went to Beijing, what kind of dignitaries were you introduced to in the Chinese capital?

嗯，外交部长叫陈毅，是个很有个性的人，我觉得

Well, the foreign minister was a guy called Chen Yi, who was quite a character, and I think

他也是中国人民解放军的一位元帅。

He was a marshal in the People's Liberation Army too.

哦，他是现代中国八大创始人之一，实际上还挺温和的。

Oh, he was one of the great eight founders of modern China, and quite a moderate, actually.

后来在1971年，当基辛格秘密访华筹备尼克松来访时，毛泽东让陈毅和另外三位将军评估国际形势以及中国面临的威胁程度，陈毅写了一篇报告。

As it turned out, later in 1971 when Kissinger was coming on his secret trip to organize Nixon coming, Chen Yi and three other generals were asked by Mao to assess the foreign situation and how threatened was China, and Chen Yi wrote a paper.

我认为他是四人中唯一一个写信表示：我认为中国应该与美国和解，与美国结成伙伴关系以平衡苏联，而这正是基辛格希望达成的。

He was I think the only one of the four who wrote and said, well, I think China should make amends with The United States, and we should form a partnership with The United States as a balance against the Soviet Union, which was exactly what Kissinger was wanting to come.

他在人民大会堂里真是非同凡响。

He was quite something in the Great Hall Of The People.

当时天气寒冷，我们都裹得严严实实，他却挥舞着小红书，大谈毛主席多么伟大，文化大革命正是中国所需要的，结果九个月后他被关进了监狱，不过只是软禁，最终在耻辱中去世。

He sat there while we it was freezing cold, we were all rugged up, he was waving around the little red book saying how great Chairman Mao was, how the Cultural Revolution was just what China needed, and guess what, nine months later he was put in the jail, but he was put in house detention, and he died in disgrace.

非常令人难过。

Very sad.

你当时才19岁，就已经在会见中国外交部长了。

Still 19 years old, and you're meeting the Chinese foreign ministers.

这真是令人兴奋的内容，简。

This is very heady stuff, Jane.

你当时有这种感觉吗？还是你觉得这对她来说再正常不过了？

Did you have a sense of that, or did you just think this was perfectly normal for her?

我不觉得这很正常，但我认为这非常有趣，而且我觉得在周围一片混乱的情况下，我们还能置身其中，实在令人惊叹。

I don't think I thought it was normal, but I thought it was pretty interesting, and I thought it was pretty amazing that all this chaos was going around us and we could be there.

多年后，当我以记者身份重返北京时，遇到了我们当年的一位翻译，那时他当然已经是一位年迈的先生了。在我们第一次见面后，他临走时对我说：‘简，你当时总说，到底发生了什么？’

And years later, I did meet one of our interpreters when I went back to Beijing as a correspondent, and the interpreter was then of course quite an elderly gentleman, and as he was leaving after our first meeting, he said to me, Jane, you always used to say on that trip, what is going on?

让我告诉你，我们根本不知道发生了什么。

Let me tell you, we had no idea what was going on.

非常有趣。

Very interesting.

当时有没有一种感觉，作为西方人，你们处于某种危险之中？因为到了1967年，已经发生过围攻外国使馆的事件，英国使馆甚至一度被烧毁。

Was there a sense that as Westerners, you were in any kind of danger because by '67, there'd been sieges at foreign embassies, British embassy had been burnt at one point?

我不这么认为。

I don't think so.

我认为我们很有信心，他们并不想拿我们当众示众。

I think we we were pretty confident that they didn't want to make a spectacle out of us.

我认为他们可能把我们当成某种资产。

I think they probably thought we were some kind of asset.

我觉得他们不希望我们感到危险，我们从未感到过任何危险。

I don't think they wanted we never felt in danger at all.

你有没有感觉到自己正在见证一个历史性的时刻？

Did you ever sense that you were witnessing an epochal moment in history?

世界历史？

World history?

哦，我觉得是的。

Oh, think so.

我觉得我们感受到这是一个庞大的沉睡巨龙般的国家，这种情况不可能永远持续下去，他们终将从这场动荡中崛起。

I think we felt that this was a huge sleeping giant of a country, and this couldn't go on forever, and somehow they were going to emerge from this.

我的意思是，我们无法预见具体如何或何时发生，但我觉得这次旅行让我对中国产生了浓厚的兴趣，并让我清楚地意识到，尽管当时一片混乱，但中国终将崛起。

I mean, we couldn't see how or when, but I think that trip really made me fascinated about China and made it very clear that this was even though it was in total chaos then, that it would emerge at some point.

你能从规模、压力、组织和投入中直接感受到。

You could just feel it by the scale and the pressures and the organization and the dedication.

你总觉得，无论他们做什么，只要下定决心，就一定能做成。

You sort of felt no matter what they did and what they put their mind to, they would do it.

这是否是你脑海中真正萌生想成为记者的那一刻？

Was this the moment when it really sort of came together in your head that you wanted to be a journalist?

我想是的，没错。

I think so, yes.

我想我甚至在此之前就有点意识到了，但毫无疑问，这次经历让我坚定了成为记者的想法。

I think I probably knew that even slightly before, but I think definitely that made my the idea of being a journalist

作为一名记者，你一直秉持的使命是什么？

What has always been your mission as a journalist?

哦，我想努力告诉读者，不是灌输，而是让读者了解正在发生的事，并让他们对当天有趣的事情产生兴趣。

Oh, think to try and tell readers, not tell, but inform readers, what's going on and to make readers interested in what seems interesting of the day.

我不想说教，也不想说服他们某种政治路线是对是错。

I don't want to lecture, I don't want to persuade them that a particular political route is the right way or the wrong way.

但你写的不是好莱坞明星，而是权力。

But you're not writing about Hollywood celebrities, you're writing about power.

珍，你是否想回答关于权力的某个问题？

Is there a question of power you want to answer there, Jane?

我对权力不太确定。

I'm not sure about the power.

我认为是国家之间的关系，我交换学习结束后，美国的政治深深吸引了我，我记得我在悉尼时得知鲍比遇刺的消息，我记得鲍比·肯尼迪被枪杀的那一刻。

I think the relationship between nations, and I think The United States after my exchange year, the politics of The United States really grabbed me, and I can remember where I was when Bobby I was back in Sydney, but I can remember when Bobby Kennedy was shot.

我记得那个动荡的1968年总统大选年。

I can remember that tumultuous nineteen sixty eight presidential year.

从那以后，我总想回到美国报道政治。

After that, I always wanted to go back to The US and report on politics.

我想，基本上，我并没有具体的故事目标，但我一直想回到美国，因为我觉得那里才是关键所在。

I think that was basically, you know, I didn't have exact destination of stories in mind, but I always wanted to go back to The United States because I thought that was the place to be.

你在《澳大利亚人报》创刊初期曾短暂工作过，那时它还被认为是一份左翼报纸。

You did a short stint at the Australian newspaper in its early days back when it was considered a lefty newspaper.

嗯，那是我的

Well, that's my

最温暖的回忆，阿德里安·德默，他是编辑，其实根本不是左派，他是个小写的自由派，在我大学最后一年来到悉尼大学，在职业周做了一场演讲，我事后去找他，对他说：这些话我已经听过一百遍了。

warmest Adrian Demer, who was the editor, who was hardly a lefty, he was a small l liberal, he came to Sydney University in my final year and gave a talk at Careers Week, and I went up to him afterwards and I said, I've heard all this a 100 times.

我真的想成为一名记者。

I really want to be a journalist.

我想他对我直率的态度感到惊讶，他说：好吧，考完试后来找我。

I think he was taken aback with my candor, and he said, Alright, come and see me after your exams.

我考完试后去见了他，他就雇用了我。

I went and saw him after my exams and he hired me.

那我还能说什么呢？

So what can I say?

我很幸运。

I was very lucky.

我在那里度过了美好的两年。

I had a great two years there.

然后他写社论反对澳大利亚参与越南战争，反对南非跳羚队（南非橄榄球队）来悉尼，诸如此类，鲁珀特对这种我称之为自由派的态度感到厌倦了。

And then he was writing editorials about Vietnam being not the place that Australia should be against the Springboks South African football team coming to Sydney and la da da da da, and Rupert got tired of the I would call it liberal attitude.

而且报纸的盈利也没达到他期望的水平，所以我们解雇了阿德里安，换上了一位——怎么说呢——更保守的编辑。

And the paper wasn't making as much money as he wanted, so we fired Adrian and brought in some, well, shall we say, more conservative editor.

那你去了哪里？

And you went to?

我离开了，去了纽约。

I left and went to New York.

七十年代初，纽约正经历自己的动荡时期。

New York was going through its own period of turmoil in the early seventies.

它即将破产。

It was about to go bankrupt.

当时还没完全摆脱困境，谋杀率持续攀升，但也许那时的纽约比今天更具文化活力。

It hadn't quite gotten by it, and had a spiraling murder rate, but it was probably a more culturally vibrant place then than maybe it is today.

你知道吗，你这么说，好像纽约一片黑暗，被罪犯掌控，非常不安全。

You know, you say it, and you make New York sound as though it was so dark, and it was run by criminals, and it was unsafe.

不，不，但当时的谋杀率比现在高得多，而且正濒临破产。

No, no, but it had a way higher murder rate than it does today, and it was on the way to be declared bankrupt.

还记得吗，那位市长总统突然去世了？

Remember, President Ford of city dropped dead?

那只是两年后的事。

That was only two years later.

这不正是你对纽约的印象吗，琼？

Doesn't it sound like that was your impression of New York, Joan?

我报道的是纽约政治和华盛顿政治。

I covered politics, New York politics and Washington politics.

说实话，犯罪率并不是我写作内容的重点。

Honestly, the crime rate didn't figure in what I was writing about.

虽然我也写过一些关于某些谋杀案的特写报道，但我发现这一切都令人兴奋又有趣。

Although I did write some stories, feature stories about certain murders, but I found the whole thing so exciting and so interesting.

你在《纽约邮报》工作过。

You worked at the New York Post.

你见过鲁珀特·默多克吗？

Did you ever see Rupert Murdoch?

见过。

I did.

他走进来了。

He walked in.

他买下了这份报纸，然后穿过了新闻编辑部。

He bought the paper and he came through the newsroom.

我们聊了聊，说了会儿话，然后我就走了。

You know, we talked, chatted, and I left.

他打算做什么很清楚，因为《纽约邮报》当时是一家濒临失败的小报，而默多克的魔力——如果你愿意这么讲的话——让他把它变成了一份生机勃勃的小报，但我没亲眼看到这一切，因为我几个月后就离开了。

It was very clear what he was going to do because the New York Post was a failing tabloid, and it was clear for the Murdoch magic, if that's how you want to say it, and he made it into a zinging tabloid, but I wasn't there when he did that because I left after about a couple of months.

后来我去了一家位于市中心的小报纸《苏豪周刊新闻》，在那里写了两年的媒体与政治专栏，而我在1978年纽约著名的报业大罢工期间撰写了这个专栏，默多克正是这场罢工的关键人物。

And I went to a little downtown newspaper called the Soho Weekly News, and I wrote a media political column for a couple of years, and I wrote this political column, this media column during the very famous nineteen seventy eight New York newspaper strike, of which Murdoch was a key figure.

所以我认识默多克，也认识他的下属，因此能够写出相当不错的每周专栏。

And so I knew Murdoch and I knew his lieutenants, and so I was able to write a pretty good weekly column.

那么从那里你去了《纽约时报》？

So from there to the New York Times?

不，然后我去了《每日新闻》。

No, then I went to the Daily News.

所以我曾在纽约现存的三家报纸都工作过。

So I worked at all three extant newspapers in New York.

你在《纽约时报》时认识了你的丈夫雷·邦纳，他以前曾上过这个节目，现在在纽约和澳大利亚之间往返，他在澳大利亚经营一家书店。

It was at the New York Times you met your husband Ray Bonner, has been on the program previously, who now divides his time between New York and Australia, where he runs a bookshop.

你对那时的雷·邦纳有什么印象？

What do you remember of Ray Bonner in those days?

雷就是那个穿着冰淇淋汤·沃尔夫服装、悠闲地穿过新闻室的人，他因对萨尔瓦多的出色报道而闻名——严肃地说，他揭露了里根政府对萨尔瓦多右翼政权的支持。

Ray was the guy in the ice cream Tom Wolf suit sauntering through the newsroom, celebrated for the great coverage of no, very seriously, coverage of Salvador and you know, exposing the Reagan administration support of the right wing regime in Salvador.

他报道了在萨尔瓦多发生的多起严重暴行，是的。

He put he reported on several absolute atrocities that have been committed Yeah.

在萨尔瓦多。

In El Salvador.

一场大屠杀。

A big massacre.

这激起了整个里根政府的敌意，他们施压《纽约时报》，要求把他调离那里。

Which invited the entire hostility of the entire Reagan administration, and they came down on the New York Times to move him out of there.

看到他在这种压力下是什么样子？

What was like seeing him under that kind of pressure?

实际上，他承受的压力主要来自当时《纽约时报》的主编亚伯·罗森塔尔，他的立场与里根政府基本一致。

Well, he was actually more the pressure of the editor of the New York Times at the time, Abe Rosenthal, who was basically of the same mindset as the Reagan administration.

亚伯认为雷的报道不符合他的政治议程，于是雷被调回纽约，随后他决定：受够了。

Abe decided that Ray's reporting was not quite to his political agenda, and so Ray basically came back to New York, and then he decided, Well, I've had enough of this.

我不再受亚伯的压迫了，于是他离开了，并写了一本出色的书《弱点与欺骗》，这是他四本书中的第一本。

I'm not going to be pressured by Abe, so he left and wrote a terrific book, Weakness and Deceit, which was the first of his four books.

你被雷的什么吸引住了？

What were you drawn to Ray?

他充满活力，观点鲜明，而且总是基于事实。

He's exuberant, got great opinions which are always based on fact.

他是一名律师。

He's a lawyer.

他毕业于斯坦福法学院。

He went to Stanford Law School.

法学院毕业后，他成为美军在越南的律师，因为当时他相当保守。

After law school, went to He was a lawyer for the Marines in Vietnam because at that stage, was quite he was, what can we say, conservative.

然后他回到美国，为拉尔夫·纳德工作。

Then he came back to The States, and he worked for Ralph Nader.

他对政治的看法发生了改变。

He changed his mind about politics.

之后他去了旧金山，成为一名白领犯罪检察官，管理着一个超过百人的庞大办公室。他总是说，他厌倦了追着人跑，于是背起背包去了拉丁美洲。

Then he went to San Francisco and he became a white collar crime prosecutor running a huge office of more than 100 people, and he always says he got tired of running people, so he put a backpack on and went to Latin America.

就这样，他以自由记者的身份来到萨尔瓦多，恰逢那些可怕的屠杀事件发生，他得以报道这些事件。

And that's how he ended up in Salvador as a freelance journalist, and that he was there at the right time when these terrible massacres happened and he was able to write about them.

所以1988年，你被派往非洲为《纽约时报》工作。

So in 1988, you were posted to Africa for the New York Times.

在去非洲之前，你和雷做了哪些有趣的准备，当作一张‘免罪金牌’？

Tell me about the little interesting bit of preparation you did with Ray before you went to Africa as a bit of a get out of jail card.

去非洲其实没做多少准备，但当时我们对几件事还不太确定。

So there wasn't much preparation going to Africa, but you know, we weren't quite sure about several things.

首先，我们结婚了，因为我们觉得如果遇到麻烦，有一张结婚证可能会有帮助。

So first of all, we got married because we thought if we got into trouble, it might be a good idea to have a marriage certificate.

其次，我们在华尔道夫酒店与扎伊尔总统蒙博托拍了一张照片，他是当时非洲最右翼的独裁者之一。

Then second of all, we had our photograph taken with one president Mobutu of Zaire, one of the most right wing dictators in Africa at the Waldorf Astoria.

我们以为，如果在检查站出示这张照片，就能免于入狱。

We thought if we showed this photograph at checkpoints, we'd get out of jail.

如果我遇到麻烦，就拿出你和蒙博托的合影，说：‘这是我的朋友，终身总统蒙博托。’

I get into trouble, produce the photo of you with Mobutu and say, Here's my friend, President for Life Mobutu.

在华尔道夫酒店舒适的沙发上拍的。

In a plush Waldorf Astoria couch.

那么，简，你到非洲后的第一个任务是什么？

So what was your first assignment in Africa then, Jane?

哦，你知道吗，那时候，我不确定该不该说，但那真是个辉煌的年代，我们去那里的过程相当有趣。

Oh, so you know, in those days, the times I don't know if I should be saying this, but it was sort of the grand old days, and so we went getting there was quite interesting.

我们经由日内瓦前往，住在一家非常不错的酒店，然后从日内瓦飞往亚的斯亚贝巴。我不知道自己当时怎么想的，但就是觉得，如果能采访到门格斯图——那位当时长期掌权的独裁者——该有多好。

We went via Geneva, and we stayed in a very nice hotel, and we went from Geneva to Addis Ababa, and I don't know whatever had gotten into my head, but I just thought, wouldn't it be great to get an interview with Mengistu, who was the then dictator and had been in charge for a long time?

我想他是在杀害皇帝海尔·塞拉西之后上台的，已经掌权很久了，却一直没人采访过他。

I guess he emerged after the killing of the emperor Haile Selassie, and he'd been in charge for quite a while, and no one had really interviewed him.

于是我结识了外交部的一位人士，在那里待了整整一周到十天，简直像没完没了。

So I befriended some guy from the foreign ministry and hung around for what seemed like an endless amount of time, a week to ten days.

我记得不知怎么搞到一瓶格兰菲迪威士忌，送给了那位外交部的人，想借此推动一下事情，你猜怎么着？

I remember somehow getting a bottle of Glen Fiddich and giving it to the guy from the foreign minister, you know, trying to coax things along, and guess what?

我成功拿到了采访，发了报道，但报道被退了回来。

I got the interview, and I filed the story, and it was sent back to me.

太过favorable了。

Too favorable.

重写。

Recast.

你能想象吗，写一篇如此 favorably 描述像那样的独裁者的报道？

Can you imagine writing a story was too favorable about a dictator like that?

但他有道理吗？

Was he right though?

当然，他们是对的。

Of course they were right.

你知道，我刚写了些胡说八道，说门格斯图想和美国交朋友。

You know, I'd just written this bullshit about how Mengisto wanted to be friends with The United States.

我的意思是，这简直荒谬至极。

I mean, it's just totally ridiculous.

所以实际上，改动起来并不太费劲。

So actually, it didn't take too much work.

只是做了一点重新调整，顺便加了一些关于他暴行的段落。

It took a little bit of re engineering, and shall we say, some added paragraphs about his atrocities.

这对你来说是个教训吗？

Was that a lesson learned for you?

当然。

Definitely.

您正在收听《与理查德·费德勒的对话》。

You're listening to Conversations with Richard Feidler.

您随时可以在ABC Listen应用或访问abc.net.au/conversations收听更多对话。

Hear more conversations anytime on the ABC Listen app or go to abc.net.au/conversations.

我们之前谈到过您如何在八十年代末被派往非洲，当时那里发生了许多大事。

We were talking before about how you got posted to Africa in the late eighties, and there's a lot going on.

多场内战、饥荒，以及艾滋病疫情。

Multiple civil wars, famines, the HIV AIDS epidemic.

对你来说，最难忘的故事是哪一个？

What was the story that still stands out for you?

嗯，我不知道用‘幸运’这个词是否恰当，但1992年索马里发生大饥荒时，我正好在那里。

Well, I was I don't know whether the right word is lucky, but I was there as the big famine in Somalia came about in 1992.

现在看来仿佛已是很久以前的事了，自那以后发生了那么多场饥荒。

Seems like eons ago now, and there have been so many famines since.

但这次饥荒规模巨大，我认为正是因为其严重性而引起了全世界的关注，原因有很多。

But this was a big famine that I think caught the world's attention because of its severity and there were a lot of reasons.

索马里更容易进入，当然，它曾因冷战时期属于非洲的禁区而被封闭。

Somalia was more accessible, of course it had been closed off because it was part of the forbidden part of Africa during the Cold War.

当时我被派驻在肯尼亚，周围已经开始有传言。

I was posted in Kenya at the time and there was murmurs going around.

索马里正发生一场可怕的饥荒。

There's this incredible famine going on in Somalia.

我心想，我最好设法去那里。

And I thought to myself, Well, I better try and get there.

在那个年代，国际红十字委员会是记者获得进入权限的最重要渠道。

And in those days, the International Committee of the Red Cross was really the greatest access for journalists.

于是我去找他们，问：你们能带我去摩加迪沙和饥荒中心吗？

So I went to them and said, Will you take me to Mogadishu and to the center of the famine?

他们答应了，因为他们也希望引起关注。

They said yes because they were looking to get attention.

于是我找到了摄影师菲奥娜·麦克杜格尔，我们搭上了一架红十字国际委员会的小型飞机，从内罗毕飞往摩加迪沙，实际上只花了几个小时。

So I found Fiona McDougall, who's a great photographer, and we hopped onto an ICRC small plane, and we flew from Nairobi to Mogadishu just a few hours actually.

然后我们登上了一辆红十字国际委员会的车辆，向西前往索马里腹地的一个叫拜多阿的地方，那里随处可见尸体。

Then we got into an ICRC vehicle and went west into the center of Somalia to a place called Baidoa where we saw a lot of dead people.

我们在拜多阿过了一夜。

We slept overnight in Baidoa.

我们到达时天已经黑了。

It was dark by the time we got there.

第二天早上，我们开车前往这个营地，沿途路上到处都是尸体。

The next morning we drove to this camp, and all along the road there were dead people.

我们到达营地后，发现人们正在为因饥饿而死去的婴儿和儿童挖坟墓。

We got to the camp and they were digging graves for the babies and the children who were dying for lack of food.

这所谓的联合国营地实际上什么都没有，只有极少的水，没有食物，什么都没有。

And it was a so called UN camp, it was they had nothing there basically, just thin water, no food, nothing.

所以，我想这算是其中一件极其冷酷的事情了。

So it was one of those really callous things I suppose.

我们拍了照片，采访了人，赶回机场，及时回到了内罗毕，赶上了写报道的时机，而且宣传效果非常好，因为这个故事登上了《纽约时报》周日的头版，而那时周日版的发行量非常大。

We got pictures, I interviewed people, we raced back to the airport, and we got back to Nairobi in time that I could write a story and the timing was really good in terms of the publicity because the story appeared on the front page of the New York Times on a Sunday, which in those days was mass circulation.

《纽约时报》头版。

Front page of the New York Times.

头版上方。

Above the fold.

头版上方。

Above the fold.

这是您对索马里饥荒的报道，当时正值乔治·H.

This is your coverage of the famine in Somalia, and this was during the administration of George H.

W.

W.

布什政府时期，也就是老布什。

Bush, the first George Bush.

这个报道对布什政府产生了什么影响？

What effect did this story have on the Bush administration?