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你好，我是安娜莉莎。
Hello, it's Annalisa.
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If you'd like to listen to Conversations with Annalisa Barbieri ad free, please consider subscribing to my Substack page, which I'll link to in the episode description, but you can also find at pocketanalisa.pocketanalisa.substack.com.
每周只需一英镑，你就能提前获取所有新节目，而且没有广告，往期内容也会全部上传到那里。
For about a pound a week, you'll get early and ad free access to all the new podcasts before they go on general release, and all the back catalogue will also be going on there.
请注意，尽管有些节目里提到过，但从2025年1月7日起，我将不再使用Patreon，请到Substack上找我。
Please note that despite what some episodes say, as of the 07/01/2025 I will no longer be using Patreon, so please come and find me on Substack.
你好，欢迎收听第九季第四期《与安娜莉莎·巴尔贝里对话》。
Hello, and welcome to the fourth episode of series nine of conversations with me, Annalisa Barbieri.
我总觉得这话我说过很多遍了，但这个想法其实来自一次偶然的闲聊。
I feel I say this a lot, but this idea came out of a conversation about something else.
去年今天，我们再次邀请到临床心理学家兼精神分析学家史蒂芬·布卢门塔尔博士，一起讨论了一位读者写给《卫报》专栏的问题。
Last year, today's returning conversationalist, clinical psychologist and psychoanalyst Doctor Stephen Blumenthal and I were discussing a reader's problem for my Guardian column.
聊完正题后，像往常一样，我们又扯开了，聊起了其他各种话题。
And then when we finished, as we tend to, we started chatting about various other things.
斯蒂芬跟我说了一句话，一直在我脑子里挥之不去。
And Stephen said something to me which really stuck in my head.
他说，失去是人们最难接受的一种情绪。
And it was this: That loss was the hardest emotion for people to come to terms with.
之后的几个月里，我反复琢磨这句话。
I thought about this repeatedly in the months afterwards.
真是这样吗？
Was it?
他这话到底是什么意思？
What did he mean?
后来我想到了我们各种逃避感受的行为——从成瘾到自我安慰，甚至自伤，其实都源于失去。
And then I thought about all the behaviors we have around avoiding how we feel from addiction to self soothing or self harming behaviours and they are all rooted in loss.
无论是失去了曾经拥有过的人或事，还是从未得到过却渴望的东西。
Either the loss of something or someone we had or no longer have or something we wanted never had.
失去是一种强烈的情绪，可我们偏偏总是躲着它。
Loss is a powerful emotion and it's no one we turn away from it so often.
这真的很痛。
It hurts.
那它有什么意义呢？
So does it have a point?
我们在这一期里已经深入讨论过这个话题了。
Well, we discussed this at length in this episode.
后来我开始意识到，希望在帮助我们面对失去时有多么重要，因为没有希望的失去，几乎让人无法承受。
I then started thinking about how important hope is to help us process loss, because think loss without hope is really almost impossible to bear.
所以这个播客讲的，就是失去与希望。
Hence this podcast is about both loss and hope.
我们先谈失去，为什么它深植于我们存在的核心，为什么接纳无常带来的不安如此重要，以及它如何推动我们成长。
We discuss first losses, why they're at the very heart of our being, why it's so important to embrace or try to the insecurity of impermanence and how it helps us grow.
我们还探讨了哀悼在这其中扮演的角色，以及忧郁与哀悼之间的区别。
We also look at what role mourning plays in all this and the difference between melancholia and mourning.
当然，还有希望在这其中的作用——就像一盏明亮的灯，照亮前行的路。
And of course, hope's roll in all this, like a bright beacon of, well, hope.
希望这一集能引发你的思考，也对你有帮助。
I hope this episode is thought provoking and useful.
我不瞒你，这内容挺有挑战性的，但大多数值得做的事都是这样。
I won't lie, it's quite challenging, but then most things that are worthwhile are.
这里要说明一下，我在《卫报》专栏和播客里邀请的所有专家，都经过严格培训并持有专业认证。
A note here that all the specialists I use in both my Guardian column and my podcasts are highly trained and accredited.
斯蒂芬是英国精神分析委员会注册分析师，有三十多年临床经验。
And Stephen is registered with the British Psychoanalytic Council and has over thirty years experience in treating people.
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If you'd like to listen to this podcast ad free and before it goes on general release, please consider becoming a patron from just £3 a month, or you can give a one off donation via Acast supporter.
两个链接都会放在节目简介里。
Both links will be in the episode description.
斯蒂芬，你好，欢迎来到节目。
Stephen, hello and welcome.
你好，安娜丽莎，能再次和你对话真的很开心。
Hello Annalisa, it's really great to be talking to you again.
我们从小就开始经历失去，对吧？
We start experiencing loss at a very young age, don't we?
我们来聊聊这个好吗？
Can we talk about that?
当然可以。
We certainly can.
我觉得这是个特别好的切入点。
I think that's a really good place to start with.
失去其实是我们人生中再普通不过却又无比核心的一部分。
It's just with the ordinary way in which loss is so central to human experience.
我觉得，这几乎是人类存在的本质所在。
It's kind of really the essence, the sort of core experience of human existence, I think.
而我们如何哀悼、如何走出失去，对心理健康和幸福感至关重要。
And the way in which we are able to mourn and overcome loss is really so central to psychological health and well-being.
对。
Yes.
说实话，我最近才慢慢意识到这一点。
Well, it's certainly something I'm starting to realize.
我觉得其中一部分——也不是很多，但有一部分其实是常识，我们可能本来就会不自觉地这么做。
I think a lot of it may be well, not a lot of it, but some of it is common sense and some of it we might do naturally.
但当我们真正去细想的时候，就会发现失落感到底意味着什么。
But when we really look at it, I think we start to realize how loss is.
这根本不是一种让人舒服的情绪，我知道很多人都会躲着它。
It's really not an attractive emotion, and I know that people kind of run away from it.
我们在育儿的时候尤其会这样。
We'll talk about that, especially in their parenting.
他们不惜一切代价，只想保护孩子不经历失落。
They want to protect their children from loss at all costs.
是的。
Yes.
但这并不总是对的。
That's not always a good thing.
但你觉得，作为人类，我们最早经历的失去是什么？
But what what would you say are first losses as human beings?
如果你仔细想想，我们还没出生的时候，其实处在一种共生的、如海洋般包裹着我们的状态——子宫里。
I mean, if you think about it, like, our very first experiences of before we're born is of being in this kind of symbiotic oceanic place called the womb.
对。
Mhmm.
那时候没有饥饿、没有痛苦，也没有不适。
And there's no hunger, pain, discomfort.
但一出生，这些感受立刻就来了。
And then suddenly we're born and we experience those things straight away.
母亲最初如何帮我们应对这种从子宫到现实世界的转变，如何安抚我们的渴望和失落，这从根本上塑造了我们日后处理人生各种转变的方式，也决定了我们如何在这个世界上立足。
And the way in which first our mothers help us with to manage that transition into life and into loss and wanting things really is so core to then how it sets off a train of how we manage transition in the course of our lives and how we then function in the world after that.
而我们能否真正地面对和哀悼失去，将直接影响之后生活的质量。
And then our ability to really mourn loss will shape the kind of quality of life we have after that.
在出生这个最初的失去之后，我们还得面对时间的流逝——它既带来成长的可能，也带来无常的不安，关系的短暂，以及最终那我们无比珍视却转瞬即逝的生命。
And then after that first loss of birth, we have to bear the passing of time, which brings both the potential for growth and equally the insecurity of impermanence, the transience of our relationships, and ultimately the fleetingness of the life that we hold so dear.
我能问你个问题吗？
Can I just ask you a question now?
如果出生就是我们第一次失去，那确实，只要要来到这个世界，这事儿就躲不掉。
Because if that's our first loss, being being jettisoned from the womb, I mean, that's something that if you're gonna be born is inevitable.
对的。
Mhmm.
婴儿其实是能感受到的。
I mean, a baby's aware of that.
我以前接触过一些收养专家，他们提到婴儿被从母亲身边带走时，那种创伤特别深，甚至有本书专门讲这个，叫《原始伤口》。
I mean, I know that in sort of when I've worked with adoption specialists, they talk about when a baby's removed from the mother as I think there's a whole book about this actually called the primal wound.
对的。
Mhmm.
婴儿在生物层面是能感知到这种分离的。
Babies are aware of that on a kind of biological level.
是的。
Yes.
当然。
Certainly.
显然，那时候婴儿还没有意识，因为还没形成真正的感知能力。
Clearly, the baby isn't consciously aware at that point because you don't have a kind of sentience.
那时候确实没有意识，但身体深处已经记下了这种感受。
There's a lack of awareness at that point, but the memory is still registered in the body viscerally.
记忆越早，就越深入身体，影响也越强烈。
I think the earlier the memory, the more visceral it is, and actually the more affecting that is.
所以，这种感受必然会在某个层面保留下来。
So, of course, that's going to be retained at some level.
你躲不开失去带来的痛苦。
You can't outflank pain, the pain of loss.
它一直都在。
It's always there.
真正重要的，是直面它，而不是逃避——这正是我们今天播客想强调的核心。
And it's so important to actually confront it rather than avoid it is the central thing that I think we're going to be saying in today's podcast.
对。
Yes.
我不想跑题，但人们在讨论代孕时，从来都不提对宝宝的影响。
I don't wanna take this off topic, but it's one of the things that when people talk about surrogacy, they never ever mention the effect on the baby.
大家关注的总是成年人。
It's always about the adults.
我真想大喊一声：我不是说大家不该这么做，而是他们从未真正正视过这对宝宝造成的影响。
And I just want to scream and say, but I'm not saying people shouldn't do it, but they never really acknowledge what happens to the baby.
这肯定会有影响。
That is going to have an impact.
肯定会有的。
It's gonna have
产生影响。
an impact.
这才是关键所在。
That's the important thing.
是的。
Yeah.
这些事情需要被正视。
Things need to be acknowledged.
对。
Yeah.
而且需要被面对和深入探讨。
And confronted and engaged with.
这让我想起我们之前和亚历桑德拉·利马聊身体形象的那期播客。
I also it reminds me of the podcast we did with Alessandra Lima on body image.
我记得她说过，即使我们不记得了，它依然会产生生理上的影响。
And I remember she said that even if we don't remember, it has a biological impact.
所以这是我们第一次失去。
So that's our first loss.
然后，从小到大，作为人类，变化总是伴随着失去，对吧？
And then as children, we I mean, as humans, change is always about loss, isn't it?
但这听起来有点消极。
But that sounds a bit negative.
因为这种观念深深植根于最古老的文本之中。
Well, it's so embedded in the most ancient of texts.
如果你想想伊甸园被逐出的故事
And if you think of the story of the exit of from Eden
对。
Mhmm.
讲的全是失去家园、失去造物主的爱等等。
It's all about the loss of place, the loss of the love of the creator, etcetera.
而《易经》其实是现存最古老的文本之一，可以追溯到公元前九世纪，它讲的就是失去与变化，世界始终处于不断流动之中，我们必须真正接纳这一点。
And the Aiching, which is actually the one of the most ancient texts that goes back to the ninth century BC, it's about loss and change and that the world is in a constant state of flux and that we have to really embrace that.
事实上，能够应对失去和变化，是我们进化历程中的一部分，这关乎生存的本质——因为接纳失去、适应变化、持续调整，具有极强的生存价值。
In fact, it's part of our evolutionary past that actually to be able to deal with loss and change is the essence of survival because you have to it has great survival value because you have to embrace loss and move and change and adapt.
所以它早已深深融入我们的生活，融入我们的文化之中。
So it's so embedded in our lives, in in our sort of cultural lives, really.
是的。
Yeah.
而且我觉得，人们对它一直抱有很消极的看法。
And I suppose it has had a very negative spin on it.
我的意思是，如果我们把失去看作是改变——当然不是要轻视或忽视它，因为这恰恰和我们想表达的意思相反——但每一次改变，都伴随着失去。
I mean, I suppose if we think of some loss as change, not to minimize it or ignore it because that's the very opposite of what we're trying to say, but with every change, there is a loss.
我记得我孩子还小的时候，每当我们面临变化，我都会说：你感到难过，这没关系。
I remember when my children were much younger, I used to say, when things were changing, I'm like, you feel sad, and that's okay.
但那是因为你还不知道接下来会怎样。
But it's because you don't know what you're going to.
你只能看到自己已经失去的东西。
You can only see what you've lost.
你只能回头望，看不到前方，因为我们谁也无法预知未来。
You can only look backwards, not forwards, because we none of us can predict the future.
如果你想想一艘船从一个地方驶向另一个地方，总有一个时刻，你必须看不见出发的陆地，才能发现新的土地。
If you think of a ship sailing from one land to another, there is a point at which you've got to lose sight of the land that you've left in order to discover a new territory.
所以，说的其实就是这个，对吧？
So it's kind of about that, isn't it?
而且这跟所有事情都有关联，
And it comes into everything,
真的有关。
really.
确实如此。
It really does.
我越想越觉得，确实如此。
I mean, the more I think about it, the more I see that, really.
但正如你所说，社会上对失去这件事普遍有一种回避心态，这一点也很重要。
But as you say, there's a kind of cultural aversion to loss, which I think is really important to say as well.
鲍尔比一共写了三本书。
Bowlby, he actually wrote three books.
一本是依恋，一本是分离，第三本就是失去。
There's attachment, separation, and the third one is loss.
我一直觉得，失去这件事根本没人敢提。
And it's always struck me that loss isn't really spoken about.
确实没人提，对吧？
It really isn't, is it?
对。
No.
我想是因为大家都害怕面对它。
I guess because we're frightened of it.
是的。
Yes.
我们确实害怕失去，尤其是在西方社会，这一点特别明显。
We are there is a kind of terror of loss, particularly in the Western world, actually.
但我觉得，随着财富的积累，还有那种近乎过度重视生命、一味延长寿命却不太考虑生活质量的现象，
But I think probably with the accumulation of wealth and kind of almost like an oversignificance of life, extending life without too much thought for the quality of life that you're extending.
反而让失去这件事变得更加突出。
Actually, it has had this kind of effect of almost like loss.
时间流逝、人终有一死，这事儿本就不该拿来讨论。
The fact of time passing of dying eventually is something that should not be spoken about.
随着科技的发展，我觉得我们对失去的容忍度越来越低了。
So as we've advanced technologically, I think we've become more averse to loss.
再说，以前很多事现在看来简直微不足道，但我小时候，要是错过一个节目，那就真错过了，只能盼着它哪天重播；直到录像机出现，记住了才能录下来。
Well, also, there are so many things that before I mean, this sounds so silly and small in comparison, but when I grew up if you missed a program you missed it and you had to hope it came back when video recorders came in, if you've remembered you could video it.
可现在只要有人提起一个节目，几乎都能在网上买到，或者直接在流媒体上找到。
But now people mention a program, you can almost always either buy online or get it from a streaming service.
正是这些小事，让人觉得世上没什么是得不到的。
And it's just those little things that make people think that everything is achievable.
这个比喻我太喜欢了。
I love that analogy.
说得真好，特别贴切。
That is very beautifully put.
我年轻那会儿，这些事都是认了的。
You know, whereas when I was young, these things were just accepted.
你错过了。
You missed up.
你漏掉了不少事。
You missed stuff.
所以我觉得，如今我们生活的背景里，总有一种感觉：一切都能被触及、倒回或改变。
So I think there's a part of our wallpaper of life now is that everything is accessible or rewindable or changeable.
我来自意大利文化，他们对死亡的态度很不一样。
I come from an Italian culture and they have a different approach to death.
我想部分是因为他们信仰虔诚。
I think partly because they're so religious.
对的。
Mhmm.
除非我是在严重自我欺骗。
Unless I'm in massive denial.
我能坦然接受父母的离世，而这一点，我周围很多人似乎都做不到。
I was able to accept the death of my parents in a way that I didn't always see in the people around me.
我从小耳濡目染，身边总有人谈论死亡，我也读了很多关于死亡的东西。
Was that I'd grown up with very much people talking about death and I read a lot about death.
虽然作为人，我依然会害怕，但内心确实有一种接纳。
It still scares me because I'm human, but actually there is an acceptance.
接纳和失去是相伴而生的吗？
Do acceptance and loss go together?
当然。
Certainly.
是的。
Yes.
我觉得等会儿我们谈到希望的时候，你会明白，你刚才说的这种接纳，其实和希望是密不可分的。
And I think when we come to talking about hope a little later in the episode, I think that is so core to what you've just described is that acceptance and hope are really totally intertwined.
当我们当了父母，你我都是父母，自然都想替孩子挡住失去的痛苦。
When you're a parent, we are both parents, we want to protect our children from loss.
对。
Mhmm.
这是个错误吗？
And is that a mistake?
有时候确实是。
Sometimes it can be.
对。
Yes.
我觉得那种直升机式育儿，就是想把生活中所有艰难的部分都抹掉，反而太过保护了。
Because I think, like, sort of helicopter parenting basically tries to take all the hard edges off experience and can be overprotective.
这样一来，反而会让人更害怕失去。
So that can sort of really facilitate the aversion to loss.
这不仅没能培养出韧性，反而导致了缺乏韧性。
That can then promote rather than resilience, that can result in a kind of lack of resilience.
为什么？
Why?
因为改变本身就要求我们接受失去。
Because change requires an acceptance of loss.
我想到温尼科特说过一句名言，叫‘婴儿是国王或女王’，意思是别让孩子以为世界非得围着他们转，而是让他们明白自己只是世界中的一员。
What comes to mind is Winnicott's famous line, his majesty or her majesty the baby, which is that you don't disillusion the child that they're not going to be they have a place in the world rather than ruling it.
一旦发现真相，确实挺让人失望的。
That's always a disappointment when one finds that out.
可惜有些成年人到现在还没明白这一点。
Unfortunately, some world readers haven't quite found that out yet.
不过
But
是的。
Yes.
这其实助长了一种自恋的文化。
It promotes a kind of culture of narcissism, really.
因为为人父母、有效的教养，还有正常的心理发展，都包括接受一个事实：你并不是宇宙的中心，必须打破这种错觉。
Because part of parenting, part of effective parenting, and part of normal development is coming to terms with the notion that you're not the center of the universe, that there is a kind of dispelling of an illusion.
而为人父母的一部分，就是帮助孩子认清现实，接受时间会流逝，世界上还有其他人。
And part of parenting involves disillusioning the child and helping them to accept that there is the passing of time and that there are other people in the world.
接下来，你可能得接受自己不再是家里最小的孩子，随着年纪增长，失去青春；有了孩子后，失去夫妻二人世界的独处；当成为祖父母、退休后，失去原有的地位；随着年龄增长，尤其是到了中年，逐渐失去体力和活力。
And so the next task might be to accept losing one's place as the youngest in the family, and then losing youth as one gets older, losing the couple when you have children, losing your place when you become grandparents and retire, losing strength and vitality as you age, particularly around middle age.
当你实现抱负的时间窗口越来越小的时候，真正接纳这一点，反而会让你更清醒，更抓紧时间去行动、去完成事情。
And when the time you have to fulfill your ambitions is this sort of ever diminishing window, but embracing that actually gives you it sharpens your mind to actually get on with things and do things.
我觉得，正是在这些正常的失落与人生转折点上，人们常常会寻求心理咨询。
I think it's actually at those moments of transition in normal loss that people often come to therapy.
我总是注意到，很多人会在19岁、29岁、39岁或者49岁左右来找我。
I'm always struck by how often people come at sort of 19 or 29 or 39 or 49.
真的吗？
Oh, really?
正好是告别一个十年的时候？
As they're leaving one decade?
是的。
Yes.
当然不是每次都这样，但确实经常在这些人生转折的时刻发生。
Not always, obviously, but something that it frequently happens at those moments of transition.
是的。
Yes.
而且我觉得，如果你没处理好之前的失去，从我收到的读者来信里，还有现实生活中也能看到，有时候人们没消化完一次失去，接着可能连宠物仓鼠都丢了，然后突然就崩溃了。
And I guess also if you haven't processed one loss, what I notice in the readers letters I get is sometimes, and in real life actually, people don't process one loss, and then they might lose like a hamster, and suddenly they're hysterical.
他们还会问：我怎么会对一只仓鼠哭得这么厉害？
And they're like, why am crying I so much about a hamster?
而你
And you
然后你跟他们聊一聊，他们会说：可是啊，我之前失去妈妈、爸爸，或者兄弟姐妹的时候，都挺坚强的。
and you think, well and then you get talking to them and they'll say things like, but, know, I I coped really well with losing my mom or my dad or my sibling.
然后你心里想，对啊。
And you think, well Mhmm.
也许这就是原因。
Maybe that's why.
失去是一点一点累积起来的。
There's an accumulation of loss.
是的。
Yes.
作为父母，当孩子经历失去时，什么样的帮助方式是不对的呢？
So what would be the wrong way of helping someone process loss when you're a parent and then your child?
我记得我妹妹告诉我，所有人都会死。
I mean, I remember my sister telling me that everyone died.
我以为只要不出事故、不生病，人就能永远活着。
Thought everyone lived forever unless they had an accident or got ill.
那时候我还很小。
I was really young.
我一下子崩溃了，怎么也安慰不好。
And I became completely inconsolable.
因为我突然意识到，总有一天妈妈也会离开我。
I was hysterical because I realized that my mom would die one day.
她进来后，处理得特别好，真的。
And she came in and she handled it really beautifully actually.
她让我坐在她腿上，具体说了什么我记不清了，但我记得她一直安抚我、让我平静下来。
She sat me on her lap and I don't really remember what she said, but I remember her calming me down and soothing me.
那真是一个清晰得像照片一样的记忆片段。
But that's an absolute snapshot of a memory.
她处理得特别好，因为从那以后，我再也没有因为这件事崩溃过。
She handled it really well because I remember being up to a bum from that.
但那一刻，是我第一次真正明白了死亡意味着什么。
But that was a moment of realization.
如果想帮孩子面对失去，什么样的做法是不合适的呢？
What would be a not ideal way of helping a child process loss?
我们就拿仓鼠死了这个例子来说吧。
Let's use the example example of this ongoing hamster dies.
很多孩子第一次经历失去，往往就是宠物去世的时候。
Maybe that's where a child may first experience a loss of a pet.
那在这种情况下，哪些做法是不该做的呢？
What would be the wrong way of dealing with that?
回到正确的方式，你妈妈当时确实做得很对。
Well, coming back to the right way, your mother obviously did something really right there.
我特别注意到的是，你根本记不清她当时说了什么话。
And I think what what I'm really struck by in that example is how you don't remember the actual words that she said to you.
重要的不是她说了什么内容，而是当时那种整体的情感氛围。
It's not about the giving of information as such, but about the whole emotional atmosphere around that.
对。
Mhmm.
这真的太重要了。
That's so much important.
是的。
Yeah.
她的本意根本不是要伤害你，而是想帮你。
And her intention, which was exactly not to hurt, but to help.
真正治愈你的，是那种情感上的联结，它让你能够接受失去，并且真正地哀悼。
And it was that sense of emotional connectedness that healed you, that enabled you to accept the loss and mourn, in fact.
所以，错误的做法首先是否认。
So the wrong way to go about it is, first of all, through denial.
长大后，我们经常听到这样的故事，说人们回避那些可能发生的事。
And so much of the time later in life, you hear these stories about how the denial of what might have happened.
不管失去的是什么，人们都会否认它的存在。
Whatever the loss was, there's a a denial of it.
假装这件事根本没发生过。
There's a pretending that it didn't happen.
我觉得，孩子在充满正确情感氛围的环境下，其实比我们想象的更有韧性，更能应对这些事。
And I think that children are a lot more resilient and able to deal with things than with the right emotional atmosphere than we might think.
所以，我觉得坦诚比否认更重要。
So, actually, I think truth is important rather than denial.
所以，用一只一模一样的仓鼠来替换死去的那只，并不是个好办法——我知道很多父母都会这么做。
So replacing the hamster with an identical one would not be a great thing to do, which I know a lot of parents
确实如此。
do.
是这么想的。
Think so.
不是。
No.
我觉得他们并不是存心不良，但是……
I don't think they mean they mean well, but
生活中有一种自然的破裂与修复循环。
In life, there's a kind of a natural rupture and repair cycle.
这正是生活的本质。
That is the kind of essence of life.
人生中很重要的一课就是：东西会坏，人会崩溃，但之后我们又能重新振作，把一切拼回来，让某些东西得以恢复。
It's one of the main things that we have to learn in life is that things break down, we sort of fall apart, and then we gather ourselves back up together again, and and something is restored.
有破碎，就有重建。
There's a falling apart and a recovery.
如果你一味回避破裂的存在，那就永远无法愈合。
And if you try and prevent the idea that there is a rupture, then it can never heal.
但也要保护孩子，做到符合他们的年龄阶段。
But there's also protecting children and being age appropriate.
对。
Mhmm.
每天都有人写信给我，问我什么时候才合适。
You know, I have every day someone writing to me about the right time.
他们并不是想否认事实，而是关心时机的问题。
It's not that they want to deny it, but it's about the timing of something.
那保护和回避的界限到底在哪里呢？
But where does protection end and denial begin?
我很高兴你提到这一点，我从没想过要让人觉得，你应该把所有事情都告诉孩子。实际上，作为父母，我们真正要做的，是把握好信息过多和过少之间的分寸。
I'm so glad that you raised that because I at no point would I want to come across as saying that you just sort of share everything with a child and that actually managing that boundary between too much information and too little is part of what we really have to do as parents.
当然，不能让孩子过早接触太多失去的痛苦，否则会带来创伤。
So it's important, of course, not to overexpose a person to loss because otherwise that will be traumatic.
这其实把我们引向了正常失去与异常失去之间的区别。
And I suppose this really takes us into the difference between normal and abnormal loss.
没错。
Right.
因为异常的丧失往往来得突然，信息一下子涌进来，让人措手不及，这种过载正是创伤的核心。
Because I suppose the nature of abnormal loss is that suddenly loss is condensed, and we're confronted by too much information and we're overwhelmed, which is the essence of trauma.
所以不能把太多信息强加给人，否则容易造成二次创伤。把握这个度非常考验情感智慧，需要技巧，根本没法套用固定准则——你得看场合、看对方的状态，判断他能承受多少，什么话该说、什么话该缓一缓。
So you don't want to over traumatize somebody with too much information, And managing that is a deeply emotional task which requires skill, and you can't really sort of have a guideline as such about how to do that because you've got to read the situation and judge what this person can manage and what is appropriate to the setting.
对。
Yes.
这个观点真的很到位。
I think that's a really good point.
我们每个人都会遇到这样的生命时刻。
And we all have these life events.
可能是健康方面的问题。
They may be about health.
也可能是家庭里的秘密。
They may be about family secrets.
我收到的另一类信件是，有人提到自己 somewhere 有个兄弟姐妹。
The other strand of letter I get is that there's a sibling somewhere.
这其实是个很常见的主题，尤其是现在有了DNA检测之后。
That's a really common theme actually, especially now with DNA testing.
我在想，那些听我们谈话、可能在自己生活中也遇到类似情况的人，一定会在想：我不说，是不是反而没帮上忙？
And I'm just thinking that people listening who might recognize some of these situations in their own life will be knowing, well, am I not helping by not saying something?
但就像你所说的，如果是非正常丧失，他们突然会发现，自己的爸爸或妈妈还有另一个家庭，或者别的孩子。
But equally, like you said, if it's an abnormal loss, they're suddenly going to find out that their dad or their mom has got another family or other children.
这挺让人受打击的，对吧？
That's quite traumatic, isn't it?
因为这不仅是失去了未来的可能，更是失去了对过去所认知的一切。
So, because it's the loss loss of a future, but it's also the loss of what you thought you knew in the past.
是的。
Yes.
没错。
That's right.
这是一种幻觉的破灭。
It's the shattering of an illusion.
对。
Mhmm.
但总归有一天，这件事是该说出来的。
And at some point, it hopefully has to be said.
我信事实。
I like facts.
是的。
Yeah.
而事实，说到底就是真相。
Which I guess is truth.
不过具体是什么样的事实，我还是希望有人能平静、有把握地告诉我。
But depending on what it is, I like them delivered in an authoritative calm way.
我不喜欢那种歇斯底里的氛围。
I don't like hysteria.
我想这在一定程度上解释了我为什么这么做。
I think that's partly why I do what I do.
我总是从情绪中剥离出事实的细节。
And I'm always sifting through the emotion for the detail of the fact.
因为我从小在一个充满戏剧性的意大利家庭长大，真相常常被夸张的场面掩盖。
And that's because I grew up in a very colorful Italian family and sometimes the truth was buried under drama.
其实小时候，你能感觉到事情不对劲。
And actually as child, I think you sense when something's not right.
我想强调一个很重要的观点：当你觉得不对劲时，往往会用自己的想象去填补空白，而那通常更糟。
And this is quite an important point I'm hoping to make, which is that when you sense that something isn't right, you fill the gaps with your own imagination, which is usually worse.
但有一件事我一直觉得特别安心，那就是事实。
But there's something I've always found quite calming about facts.
不过，事实也可能被传达得很糟糕，没错。
That said, they can be delivered really badly Yes.
或者以一种极具伤害性、甚至有些残忍的方式说出来。
Or in a really harmful, sometimes sadistic way.
但我想这又回到了我说过的话：正在听的父母，如果有孩子，最终做决定的只能是你们自己。
But I guess that gets back to what I'm saying, which is parents who are listening to this, who have children, I suppose that only they can make that decision.
而且当你终于告诉他们某件事时，我总是建议别第一次说就对着孩子开口。
And then when you've told them something in the best way that you can, and I always suggest don't let the first time you say it out loud be to your children.
先自己练习几遍。
Practice saying it.
然后你所能做的，就是等孩子问的时候再如实回答，因为他们通常只会问自己能承受的问题。
And then I suppose all you can do is really answer their questions as they come up because children tend to ask what they can handle.
所以别一股脑儿讲太多细节。
So don't over talk about detail.
我就拿那个失散多年的兄弟姐妹举例，比如‘爸爸还有个孩子，他显然更爱那个家’这种话。
I'm taking the example of the the long lost sibling of like, oh, well, daddy has another child and he clearly loved that family more than us.
你只需要保持事实清晰、语气平静，用孩子能听懂的语言说清楚。
You just say that you try and be factual and calm and use age appropriate language.
你觉得这样处理合理吗？
I mean, do think you that's sensible?
是的。
Yes.
我认为，安纳莉莎，很多事情都需要认真思考，关键在于你的动机——如果是在生气、想报复、争输赢，或者情绪激动时说出口，那最好先别急着说，而是静下心来好好想想这个问题，也可以跟别人聊聊，权衡一下自己话的后果。
I think, Annalisa, that things need thought, and so much of it depends on one's intention that something delivered in a in a retaliatory way or trying to score points or when emotion is running high, that's probably something that you should try not to do and just try and give some thought to a particular issue and perhaps talk it over with somebody else and think about the consequences of what you're saying.
我很赞同你的想法，就是尽量只讲事实，别掺杂太多主观意图。
And I like your idea of actually keeping to the facts rather than involving too much purpose and intention to it.
我们真该问问自己：我的目的是什么？
And one should really think about, well, what is my intention?
如果换作是我，听到这样的信息会怎么想？
How would I receive this information?
试着站在孩子的角度，或者对方的角度去想一想：如果是你，你希望听到什么样的说法？
To try and mentalize it, to try and put oneself in the shoes of the the child or the other and see, well, what would you want?
与其冲动地一股脑儿把所有信息倒出来，不如慢下来，仔细斟酌，想想这些话长远来看会带来什么影响，而不是只顾眼前的反应。
And to try and think something over rather than an impulsive outpouring of information, which is all too much all at once to actually do something a little bit more considered, thinking about the long term effects of that rather than the the moment itself.
也得承认，这件事本来就没有完美的做法，难免会出错、会失误，这本来就是生活的一部分——你不可能创造一个毫无冲击、完全理想的环境，就像试图复刻子宫里那种绝对安稳的状态一样。
It has to be said that actually this is so imperfect as well that actually you're going to make errors and mistakes, and this is part of life as well, that that you can't make something perfect, that it's a bit like trying to create the the sort of the perfect environment of the womb and in which there isn't any impingement.
确实如此。
And there is.
生活本就是充满冲击的。
Life is about impingement.
我们讨论的，正是幻灭与完美的消逝。
That's what we're talking about is the loss of illusion, the loss of perfection.
事情从来都不完美。
Things are imperfect.
是的。
Yes.
我们总想让它更完美，结果却越走越远。
And and of course, we are trying to make it more perfect and then and therefore, we're moving further away.
我记得你曾经说过，面对失去让人不安、令人恐惧，很多人为了避免这种不适，选择逃避直面恐惧，结果反而让自己困得更死。
Mean, I remember once you said that facing loss is uncomfortable and threatening, and often people avoid the discomfort of confronting fear, which just perpetuates their confinement.
一句话就把这事儿说透了。
I mean, that just really in a sentence says it.
我们都不喜欢不舒服的感觉。
We don't like to be uncomfortable.
从心理上来说，我们尤其受不了任何形式的不适，这一点我完全能理解。
And in our fabrics psychologically, we really don't like to be uncomfortable in in any And shape or I I kind of understand that.
追求舒适的动力，我觉得也是一种生存本能。
The motivation to be comfortable is also, I think, a survival mechanism.
但就像你说的，就像我们正在讨论的这些事，我们必须学会和不适共处。
But like you're saying, and like we're discussing certain things, we have to sit with the discomfort.
这句话我经常对我孩子说。
That's a phrase I say a lot to my children.
我们的威胁反应系统是为了避免损失、避免对生存的威胁而进化出来的。
Our threat system has evolved in order to avoid loss, really, threats to our existence.
但后来又叠加了一层社会性威胁，于是我们总想避开那些看似危险的情境，其实这些情境恰恰能给我们带来很大好处，我们该去面对，而不是逃避。
But then we have this sort of overlay of social threat, which then we find ourselves trying to avoid situations which are a threat, which actually would do us a whole load of good to actually face and face into rather than avoid.
我想稍微谈一下希望，因为孩子在学习面对失去的时候，我觉得特别需要希望。
I just want to bring in a little bit about hope as a first glance because one of the things that children need when learning about loss is hope, I think.
我知道后面我们会谈到现实的希望和虚假希望的作用，这非常关键。
I know later we're going to talk about the role of realistic hope and false hope, which is really important.
我觉得很重要的是，跟孩子谈失去的时候，得看他们什么时候准备好接受希望的部分，别急着跳过失去这个事实。
I think it's important, depending on when you're talking about loss with children, when they're ready ready for the hope bit, you don't want to brush over the loss.
比如说，我还是用仓鼠来举例吧。
But, you know, example, I'm going to keep with a hamster.
对。
Yes.
汤米去世了。
Tommy has died.
仓鼠的寿命本来就不长。
Hamsters don't live very long.
这是自然的生命周期。
This is a natural life cycle.
如果真是这样，我们其实什么都做不了。
There's nothing we could have done if that's the truth.
如果他们接着问，那我们以后还能再养一只宠物吗？
And if they then say, but can we get another pet in the future?
如果他们已经在期待将来再拥有别的东西，你可以说：当然可以，到时候我们再聊这个。
That they're looking forward to another time when they have something, then you might say, yes, certainly, we can talk about that at the time.
你不能直接说‘肯定能’，因为那不一定成真；也不能直接说‘不行’或者‘别再说了’。
You wouldn't kind of go definitely yes because that might not happen, or no, or let's that's enough talking about it now.
所以我觉得，在谈论失去的时候，有时候我们需要希望，来帮助我们消化这份伤痛。
So I think that we need hope when talking about loss at times in order to help us process the loss.
你觉得这么说对吗？
Would you say that's accurate?
是的。
Yes.
完全正确。
Absolutely.
我觉得你意思是，希望不能是虚假的幻觉。
And I think that what you're saying though is that hope can't be an illusion.
这不能是幻想。
It can't be a fantasy.
真正的希望必须是现实的。
That actually it has to be a realistic hope.
你不能做出无法兑现的承诺，因为这通常会带来长期的负面影响。
So you can't make a promise that is unfulfillable because that usually has a long term negative outcome, if anything.
是的。
Yeah.
那里根本谈不上信任。
I mean, there's no trust there.
也许第一次管用，但当孩子、或者成年人意识到这一点时，他们就承受不了了，因为你心里清楚，当希望不真实的时候，你是能感觉到的。
It might work for the first time, but when the child, the adult, realizes I can't bear it because I think you feel it when it's unrealistic.
你心里明白，孩子也一样能感觉到。
You know it, and the child will know it too.
我觉得我们之前聊过，当人们说‘一切都会好起来的’这种话的时候。
I think you and I have talked about when people say things like everything's gonna be okay.
这话听起来得多空洞啊。
How hollow that can sound.
有些人说这话确实能让人安心。
I mean, some people can say that and it can be reassuring.
但有时候，人们这么说只是为了堵住话题，因为谈话变得太难了。
But sometimes people say that as a way of shutting down the conversation because it's starting to get difficult.
做人本来就这么复杂，对吧？
Because it's very complicated, isn't it, being human?
我还想到你之前说的，你妈妈安慰你的那个例子，当时的情感氛围有多重要。
And also, I'm just thinking about your previous example of your mother comforting you and how important the emotional environment is around that.
有些特别沉重的消息，如果是在爱与关怀的氛围里说出来的，人们反而会感激。
Because I think some really difficult news can be given in the context of love and care and compassion, and people will appreciate that.
如果你的朋友因为遭遇了创伤而难过，你当然希望能为他提供一个安全的空间，也就是说，你可以说：跟我说说吧。
If your friend feels bad because something has happened, because some trauma has occurred and you'd hope to be able to provide some containment, in other words, tell me about it.
你心里是什么感觉？
How does that feel?
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与其做出虚假的承诺，说什么‘你该去试试这个那个，最后一切都会好起来的’。
Rather than making false promises, oh, you should you could go and do this or that or it's all going to be okay in the end.
我觉得这样根本没法让人满意，对吧？
Well, I think that's deeply unsatisfying, isn't it?
我想聊聊你的工作，你提到人们会在19岁、29岁这些不同年纪来找你，但总体来看，你其实能看出一些模式。
Just want to talk about in your work, you mentioned that people come and see you when they're 19 or 29 and whatever, all different ages, but generally, you kinda see a pattern.
我们还可能经历哪些重大的人生失落？
What are the other big life losses we might experience?
往往就在那些人生转折的时刻，比如我接触的年轻成年人，贯穿整个生命周期，最常见的就是从青春期迈入二十多岁，告别少年时代，这是一次重要的转变。
It's always at those moments of transition, like, from I mean, I work with the young adults right through the life cycle, and it's often at those moments where moving into your twenties and leaving your teens behind, that's one moment of transition.
成为成年人，当父母，或者开始一段新关系，又或是结束一段原本以为会是终身伴侣的感情。
Becoming an adult, a parent, or when you might be establishing a new relationship or breaking up with somebody where there was an expectation that was gonna be your life partner.
尤其是到了中年，那真的是一个特别关键的转折点。
And particularly around middle age, actually, that is a really big moment of transition.
有时候，失落恰恰发生在你最意想不到的时候。
Sometimes loss is where you least expect it.
正是在这些转变的时刻，人们才会意识到：我得好好想想，重新审视自己的整个身份。
It's those moments of change where people then think, I really need to think about this and rethink my whole identity.
有时候甚至会经历一次小小的崩溃，因为你不得不面对一场重大的失去，而这往往像你之前说的，会勾起过去各种类似的失去经历。
And there might even be a little mini breakdown where you've had to kind of deal with quite a significant loss, which often, as you said earlier, triggers all sorts of previous experiences of loss as well.
对。
Yes.
还有一件特别重要的事，就是那些想要孩子却没能生养的人。
And also, I think a really important one to mention is people who wanted children, but don't have them or can't have them.
这一点确实很重要。
That's an important one.
对。
Yes.
这确实是个很大的失落。
It's a really big one.
也有些人原本希望结婚的。
And also may have wanted to get married.
现在看好像挺过时的，但别这样。
Seems so old fashioned these days, but don't.
我觉得这一点特别重要，值得被正视。
And I think that that's something that's really important that needs to be acknowledged.
尤其是当你很想生孩子却生不了，或者没遇到对的人，周围人往往避而不谈，这其实让人特别孤单。
And I think especially if you wanted to have children and don't or can't or you missed meeting the right person, there's a sort of air of people not around not wanting to talk about it, which I think is really isolating as well.
因为有些人不想提，有些人却愿意聊。
Because some people don't want to talk about it and some people do.
但至少我们得用心对待这件事。
But I think it goes back to at least being thoughtful about it.
我也经常收到很多关于这个的来信。
Because I get get a lot of letters about that as well.
尤其是当身边朋友都陆续有了孩子，他们就觉得没什么共同话题，被排除在外了。
Especially if a lot of their friends go on to have kids, they don't they feel that there's not a lot in common and they're not included.
我觉得这一定特别特别难熬。
And I think that must be really, really hard.
斯蒂芬，我们之前谈过非正常失落和正常失落。
Stephen, we talked about abnormal loss and normal loss.
你能说说这两者有什么区别吗？
Can you explain the difference?
我的意思是，我们大多数人可能都有个大概概念，但你能再给我们明确一下吗？
I mean, I think we've most of us have an idea, but could you just clarify that for us?
对。
Yeah.
我觉得非正常失落是所有这些事情一下子全涌过来的。
Well, I think that in the case of abnormal loss, all of this comes all at once.
这就像你突然接到消息，知道什么是创伤了，对吧？
It's a condensed moment where you might get news that this is what trauma is, isn't it?
比如你失去了亲人，得了重病，或者要面对身份的巨大转变，再加上过去积累的种种失落，全都堆在一起，让人完全招架不住。
Is that you might have lost a loved one or have a serious illness or you're trying to cope with a such a massive change in identity and an accumulation of previous losses all comes in this kind of very intense overwhelming kind of package of loss.
而我觉得，一个人小时候如何应对失落，往往取决于是否拥有安全的依恋关系——如果当时那些失落只是人生路上的小坎坷，就不会那么压得人喘不过气。
And I think that one's early experiences of navigating loss helped by a secure attachment where the losses in life, which might be a bump in the road, then aren't overwhelming.
所以我认为，依恋的安全感对一个人如何应对人生中那些重大的丧失至关重要，而其中一些丧失是不可避免的。
So I think this one's security of attachment is actually very important in how one then is able to navigate the big losses that happen in the course of life, and some of which are inevitable, of course.
我想提一下，弗洛伊德那篇写得非常优美的论文《哀悼与忧郁》，讲的正是正常丧失与异常丧失的区别。
And I just want to mention here that Freud's paper, which is one of his most beautifully written papers, actually, Morning and Melancholia, is all about normal and abnormal loss.
换句话说，什么时候算是在哀悼并放下失去的对象？什么时候又变成了忧郁或抑郁，也就是对失去的对象过度执着、无法释怀？
In other words, when does mourning and letting go of the lost object, how is it different from melancholia or depression, in which there's a much more fixated attachment to the lost object, and you just can't get over it.
弗洛伊德其实是在1917年，他儿子在一战中去世后写下了这篇论文。
Freud actually wrote that paper in 1917 after he lost his son in the First World War.
这其实是他试图处理自己哀伤的一种理论尝试，我觉得这也是一个非常重要的线索。
So it's his theoretical attempt to deal with his own mourning, which I think is another thread which is really important.
所以我想，对我们所有人来说，挑战在于：在忧郁的状态下，人会持续执着于失去的对象，不断反复思虑、自我责备，这和通过哀悼来直面并超越丧失是完全不同的。
So I guess this is the challenge for all of us is that in the case of melancholia, one is continues to be attached to the lost object, and there's a lot of rumination and self self criticism, which is different from the confronting of the loss and the overcoming of it through grieving.
而哀悼是深沉的，听起来却更有生命力。
And grieving is very stuck and one sounds very dynamic.
不过‘有生命力’这个词可能不太准确。
Dynamic's probably not the right word.
是这样吗？
Is that right?
对。
Yes.
差不多就是这个意思。
Something like that.
对。
Yes.
没错。
Yes.
关键是，这两种状态看起来可能非常相似。
And the thing is that the two can actually look very similar.
比如，人在悲痛初期，往往会有一种麻木、不愿接受的状态。
Like, when one is in a state of grief, there's a kind of numbing nonacceptance to begin with, perhaps.
会有一种强烈的渴望，想要寻找、找回那个失去的人或物。
There's a yearning and a searching and a wish to retrieve the lost thing or object.
接着可能会出现一种绝望和混乱，好像整个人都垮了。
And then there can be a kind of despair and a disorganization, like a kind of falling apart.
但这一点在处理失去的过程中其实非常关键，因为它看起来可能特别忧郁。
But so that's actually tremendously important actually in the processing of the loss because so it can actually look melancholic.
但在这之后，会迎来重新整合的过程。
But then after that, there's a reorganization.
有时候人确实得经历一段抑郁期，因为这本来就是正常哀悼的一部分。
And sometimes somebody does have to go through a period of depression because something actually it's part of the ordinary mourning process.
所以不能说一种是正常的，另一种就是病理性的。
So it's not that one is kind of necessarily normal and the other is pathological.
没有哪一种哀悼方式是固定的。
There's no particular way to grieve.
人们常提到哀悼的几个阶段，但每个人的经历都大不相同。
People have spoken about the stages of grief, for example, but it is very different for different people.
我觉得，没有任何两个人的哀悼过程会完全一样。
And I don't think any two processes of grieving necessarily look the same.
而且这也不是线性的。
And it's also not linear.
你知道的。
You know?
没错。
Exactly.
我觉得大家总以为哀悼就是按部就班，一步接一步地走完。
I think the state of grief, people see it as you go through this, and then it's that, and then it's that.
但根据我的经验，还有我接触过的所有人的说法，
But actually, in my experience and of everyone I've ever spoken to about grief
你会重新陷入其中。
You go back into it.
你会重新陷入其中。
You go back into it.
孩子表达哀伤的方式也不一样。
Children also grieve differently.
孩子面对悲伤时，一会儿玩乐高，一会儿突然提到奶奶，但成年人往往沉浸在悲伤里，会持续一段时间。
To adults, they puddle jump so they they can just suddenly be playing Lego and suddenly mention grandma, whereas adults tend to way too grief, so they have a period of it.
这是丧亲专家告诉我的。
I mean, is what bereavement specialists tell me.
所以悲伤不是线性的。
So it's not linear.
没错。
No.
你说得完全对。
You're absolutely right.
我很高兴你提到这一点，因为当你失去亲近的人时，正常生活看似照常进行，可突然间你就被悲伤淹没，接着又回到日常。
I'm so glad that you brought that up because when you have lost somebody dear, it's almost like sort of normal life is going along, and then suddenly you're in the grief, and then you're back into normal life.
正是这种在悲伤与日常之间来回切换的状态，反而让人特别迷失方向。
And it's that kind of that alternation between the two that can actually be quite disorientating.
我想到的是《远大前程》里的哈维莎小姐。
You know, what comes to mind is miss Havisham in in great expectations.
她总是欺负可怜的皮普，是个家境富裕的女人，当年在婚礼当天被甩了。
She sort of tyrannizes poor Pip, and she's this very wealthy woman who was snubbed on her wedding day.
她一直穿着那件婚纱，婚礼的宴席也一直摆在桌上，慢慢腐烂发臭。
And she continues to wear her wedding dress, and the wedding feast continues to be laid out on the table slowly rotting away.
她简直就是无法哀悼、无法放下的典型代表。
And she's she sort of epitomizes the inability to ever mourn and let go of this moment in her life.
她完美地展现了那种毫无哀悼的狀態。
So she captures an absence of mourning.
这在悲伤中很常见，尤其是面对重大失去时——人们往往不敢向前走，怕那样就等于抛弃了逝者的记忆。
And that's something that often comes up in grief, which is, of course, a major loss, which is that people are often afraid to move on because they think that it's letting go of that person's memory.
我创造了一个说法，自己还挺得意的：我把悲伤融入了我的生活。
And I coined a phrase, which I'm very proud of, which is that I folded the grief into my life.
我带着它继续前行。
I carry it with me.
我从未忘记他们。
I haven't forgotten them.
我没有放下他们，但我学会了和悲伤共处。
I'm not over them, but I've learned to live with the grief.
我觉得这一点特别重要，因为很多人害怕放下悲伤，总觉得一旦走出来，就像是背叛了那个人。
And I just think that's quite an important point to make because I think people are sometimes scared to let go of the grief because they feel that they've moved on and it's not kind of fair.
小时候，我特别不理解这种习俗，尤其是在意大利南部——总是女人穿着黑衣，一穿就是七年，男人却从不这样。
As a young child, I used to really criticize the habit, especially in Southern Italy, because it was always the women, never the men, who used to dress in black for seven years after they were bereaved.
等你年纪大了，就会发现你永远都脱不下黑衣服，因为总有人离世，尤其是在大家庭里。
And you get to a certain age where you're never out of the black because someone's always dying, especially in a big family.
我从来没见过我母亲的母亲，除了她一身黑的样子。
So I never knew my maternal grandmother in anything other than black.
但现在我明白了，这种做法其实有它的意义——它让别人知道你经历了巨大的失去。
But actually, I see that it has a point now, which is that it showed other people that you had suffered a big loss.
这样，别人或许会对你更温柔一些，也会主动问起你的事。
Hopefully they could treat you with a bit more tenderness and maybe ask you about it.
我现在对这件事的看法，有点不一样了。
I look at that slightly differently.
我的意思是，我以前觉得这是一种放不下，也许确实如此，或者现在还是这样。
I mean, I thought it was a kind of hanging on and maybe it was or is.
我不确定。
I don't know.
我只是想说，回头看看这些事，你会发现，也许它们并没有我当初想的那么压抑。
But I'm just saying it's interesting how you look back at things and and you think actually maybe maybe it wasn't as suppressive as I originally thought.
对。
Yes.
确实，我们得像你所说的那样，重新思考这些问题。
And one has to kind of rethink these things in just the way that you're suggesting.
这些文化习俗其实都自有其道理，我们应当尊重，而不是轻易地全盘否定。
That actually these and actually, this is the point is that cultural practices, one has to really respect rather than just kind of sort of throw them out because they have evolved for very good reason.
如果你正在听，觉得自己陷在悲伤里走不出来，或者不敢正视它，那第一步该怎么做呢？
If you're listening to this and you think, actually, I think I'm a bit stuck in my loss or I'm not facing up to it, what would be a good first step to change your state?
聊聊这件事？
Talking about it?
说出来确实是个好办法。
Talking about it is a very good idea.
我想这正是心理治疗的核心——人们带着失去的伤痛前来，而治疗师要帮他们慢慢走出悲伤，学会放下那些成了负担的东西。
I suppose this is what therapy is all about, is that people come with loss and that's what one does in therapy is to help them help them grieve often and mourn and let go of something that has become a encumbrance.
所以关键是要正视失落，而不是逃避它。
So it's actually sort of facing into the loss rather than avoiding it.
当然，并不是每个人都能负担得起心理治疗。
Not everyone can afford therapy, of course.
我觉得
And I think
有时候一个不错的方法，就是找一个你信得过的人聊聊，只要他愿意听你说。
a good way of sometimes doing is to is to start talking with someone that you trust Yes.
而且能让你安心把心里话说出来。
And will let you talk.
我知道，这种人有时候真的很难找。
I know that sometimes they those people are quite hard to find therapy.
我当然是大力推崇，但不是每个人都能做到。
Obviously, I'm a massive fan of it, but not everyone can.
你说得一点都没错。
You're absolutely right.
我觉得这里头有个关键点：你找来倾诉的人，不该只是让你反复琢磨那件事，原地打转地讲来讲去。
And I think herein lies something quite important that actually the person that you choose to talk to should also help you not just simply ruminate and where you just sort of go round and round in a circle about what happened to you.
好的倾诉，我觉得应该是帮你既看清发生了什么，也看清你自己后来是怎么反应的。
Good therapy, I think, is helps people both see what happened to you and also what you do as well.
这两方面都要兼顾。
So both those things.
同样，我觉得一个真正靠谱的朋友或知己，不会只说‘哎呀，别难过’这种话。
And similarly, I think that a friend or confidant who actually helps you not just say, oh, there there, dear.
而是会问你：‘那件事之后，你后来怎么样了？’
You know, what happened to you?
不会让你一直陷在受害者的心态里出不来，而是引导你去面对：这件事之后，你自己做了什么。
And you just sort of stay locked in a kind of cycle of victimhood, but actually sort of confront, like, what you do as a result of that.
你的模式是什么？
What is your pattern?
对。
Yeah.
你在事情中的位置。
Your place in things.
我觉得这是非常非常重要的一点。
I'm I think that's a really, really important part.
这也能让你掌握主动权。
That also gives you control.
这能带来一种掌控感。
That enables a kind of sense of agency.
正是通过这种掌控感，人才能接受失去，也才能在整体生活中拥有主动权。
And it's through a sense of agency that one then can accept loss and that you can then have agency in your life in general.
因为我想，我们讲给自己的那些故事、那些叙述，恰恰决定了我们如何生活、如何度过每一天。
Because I I suppose the stories that we tell ourselves about ourselves, the kind of narratives, then are the essence of how we go about our lives, how we then live our lives.
是的。
Yeah.
我的意思是，我注意到有些人并不喜欢这样。
I mean, I've realized that some people, they don't like that.
我喜欢清楚自己在事情中的位置，因为这让我感到有掌控感。
I like to know my place in things because that gives me control.
但我对自己的行为一向很负责任。
But I'm quite good at taking responsibility for my behavior.
但我发现有些人真的特别反感这一点。
But I've noticed some people really don't like it.
他们总是想把责任推给别人，或者怪罪命运。
They want to constantly blame other people or the universe.
我觉得这很可怕，毕竟事情已经发生了。
And I find that quite terrifying because of course something has just happened to us.
但我们应对的方式却各不相同。
How we deal with it is different.
但我觉得这挺有意思的，因为不是每个人都能做到。
But I've I just think that's quite interesting because not everyone is able to.
但好好看清自己在事情中的位置，真的很好。
But it's a really good thing to look at your place in things.
接下来聊聊希望，我觉得它现在正拼命敲着我们的门。
Now, moving on to hope, which I feel is knocking desperately on our door now.
我们先说说现实的希望——可能心理学里有更专业的说法——和虚假希望之间有什么区别。
Let's start with the difference between realistic hope, or there's probably a fancier psychological name for it, and false hope.
这两者有什么不同？
What's the difference?
这非常重要。
So this is very important.
虚假希望是一种幻觉。
False hope is an illusion.
它就像一场幻想。
It's a kind of a fantasy.
它让人无法放下失去的东西，因为它制造了一种虚假的避风港，让人逃避现实的损失。
It doesn't enable the letting go of what is lost because it creates a kind of a false refuge from what is lost.
因为虚假的希望会虚假地滋养你，维持一种幻觉，让你更难真正实现目标。
Because false hope, it it sort of falsely nourishes you and perpetuates an illusion that makes it less likely that you're going to achieve that.
也许是因为人躲进了幻想里，而这个幻想是
Perhaps because one takes refuge in the fantasy, and the fantasy is
这会阻止你以现实的方式去努力实现它吗？
Stops you working towards it in a realistic way?
对。
Yes.
我觉得关键就在‘现实’这个词上，我们并不是要人放弃梦想，甚至幻想。
Because I think the keyword here is realistic, and we're not telling people not to have dreams or even fantasies.
但如果是人生中一些重要的事情，就必须脚踏实地。
But if it's about certain important things of life, they need to be realistic.
核心就是现实。
It's about realism.
没错。
Exactly.
这又回到了你提到的孩子成长和培养希望的问题——这是一个逐步认清失去什么、什么不可能实现的去幻想过程。
And this gets back to your point about children and growth and promoting hope is that it's a gradual process of disillusionment about what is lost and what isn't possible.
有一位名叫斯托克代尔的海军上将，他的名字后来成了‘斯托克代尔悖论’的代名词。
There was a guy called admiral Stockdale whose name became synonymous with something called the Stockdale Paradox.
他在越南战争期间是一名战斗机飞行员，被俘后关押了七年多。
And he was a fighter pilot during the Vietnam War, and he was captured and held in captivity for more than seven years.
他发现，那些抱有虚假希望、过度寄托于未来的人，反而更容易迅速崩溃。
And he noticed that the prisoners who had a kind of false hope and had overinvested in the hope for the future actually sort of tended to kind of deteriorate faster.
他认为，不能把对最终胜利、最终熬过去的信念，和盲目乐观混为一谈。
And he had this thing that one mustn't confuse the faith and the hope and that you're gonna prevail in the end and get through this.
但同时，也要有勇气直面当下处境的残酷与艰难。
But also at the same time to have the discipline to confront the brutality and the difficulty of the current situation.
我觉得，这正是‘创伤后成长’的核心所在——这其实是心理学中一个研究人在遭遇逆境时如何实现积极转变的领域。
And I think that is the essence of something called post traumatic growth, which is that it's an area of psychology actually that looks at the prospects of positive change when you do face adversity.
危机当然可能压垮我们，但同时也可能是成长的契机，让你发现自己新的创造力和适应力。
And that a crisis can obviously overwhelm us, but it can also is an opportunity for growth that you can discover new capacities to be inventive and to adapt.
你会更懂得珍惜生活。
You can appreciate life more.
你能在关系中找到更深的意义，甚至发现自己从未意识到的内在力量。
You can find deeper meaning in relationships, and you might actually discover strengths that you didn't realize that you had.
你怎么判断自己是抱有虚假的希望，还是不切实际的希望呢？
How would you know if you had false hope or unrealistic hope?
我觉得关键在于能不能直面每一天的现实，想清楚该怎么一步步实现目标，有没有实际的计划。
I think it's something to do with being able to confront the day to day reality of how do you get there and actually having a sort of a plan.
当然，有些人没计划也照样取得了很大成就。
Some people do achieve a lot without a plan.
毕竟，没有一种放之四海而皆准的方法。
Of course, there's no one way of doing it.
但你通常能分辨出那种不着边际的幻想，和真正清晰可行的方向。
But you can usually tell a kind of pie in the sky kind of fantasy and distinguish it from something that is clearer.
心理学家朱莉·史密斯做过一项关于癌症幸存者和创伤后成长的研究。
The psychologist Julie Smith, she did a research study on cancer survivors and post traumatic growth.
她的研究中提到，人们在直面死亡威胁时，反而实现了某些积极的转变。
In her research, she describes the kind of more positive transformations that people were able to undertake, which they attributed to actually facing death, the prospect of death.
对吧？
Right?
直面重病确实会引发强烈的恐惧，但这种恐惧也会促使你重新思考自己所剩时间的意义。
And that actually confronting serious illness does result in a kind of surge of fear, but that invites you to reevaluate the meaning of the time that you have available.
对吧？
Right?
她发现了一个特别有意思的现象：创伤反应量表得分越高的人，反而越容易经历创伤后成长。
And she found something really interesting, which is that higher scores on a trauma reaction scale were actually associated with post traumatic growth.
也就是说，那些被病情打击得更严重的人，最终反而更有可能体验到深刻的创伤后成长。
So people who were actually a little more traumatized by their situation actually, in the end, were able to engage in more feelings of post traumatic growth.
当然，前提是他们能正视它。
If they could face up to it, of course.
是的。
Yes.
对。
Yes.
所以，真正面对失去和现实，这一点很关键。
So there's something about actually facing into loss and reality, really.
因此，'现实'这个词真的很重要。
So reality is a really important word.
没错。
Yeah.
我的体会是，就像你刚才说的，直面现实固然重要，但更需要在一个支持性、有安全感的环境中进行。
I mean, the thing I'm really getting from this is just how important it is to face up to it, as you just said, but in an environment that's supportive and containing.
而且，你提到癌症幸存者，但让我特别难过的是，不管是哪种情况，有时候传递坏消息的人——其实他们根本没接受过心理方面的训练。
And often, I mean, you talked about cancer survivors, but I think what makes me really sad about that, or really any situation, is sometimes the people breaking the bad news, or just the news, is they're not trained psychologically.
我不确定现在是不是还这样，但我记得多年前在BBC第四电台采访过一个人，她说，做超声波检查的技师常常是第一个发现孕妇流产或胎儿在子宫内夭折的人，可他们却完全没有接受过如何传达坏消息的培训。
I don't know if this still holds, but I remember years ago speaking to someone on Radio four and she said that sonographers, were often the first people that noticed a woman has miscarried or a baby has died in utero, have no training in how to break bad news.
是的
Yeah.
她对这件事感到非常震惊。
And she was really shocked by this.
我真的希望这种情况已经改变了。
I really hope that's changed.
这真的非常重要。
That is so important
确实如此。
It is.
我
I
因为就是那一刻
mean, because that moment
那个时刻才是造成创伤的伤痕。
That moment is what is the trauma scar.
女性常常会说，如果伴侣在场，对方就会突然安静下来，然后离开房间。
And that's often what women will say and their partners if they're there, they'll say the snogfer went quiet and went out of the room.
这并不会让坏消息消失，但传达的方式真的能影响你心理恢复的走向——这是我听很多人讲过，也亲身经历过的。
And it's like, it doesn't make the news go away, but the way it's delivered can really set you on a slightly different trajectory, sort of from a psychological healing point of view, from what I've heard of people and my own experiences.
我觉得这方面其实还有很多工作要做。
I think there's actually quite a lot of work to be done there.
当我们想到人生中的创伤时刻，往往并不是有理解你的家人在身边。
And when you when we think about the traumatic times of life, you know, they're not always with a really understanding family member.
也可能是学校里发生的事。
It could be something that happens at school.
老师在这方面通常做得不错。
And teachers tend to be quite good at that.
医疗环境也可能涉及在律师办公室里接到分离的消息。
A medical setting could be something to do with separation in a lawyer's office.
很多时候，坏消息的传达方式并不够好。
The news isn't always delivered really, really well.
所以，人们因为失去而受到创伤，或者深受其害，想要逃避未来的失去，这我一点都不意外。
So I'm not kind of surprised that people are traumatized by loss or really hurt by it and want to avoid future loss.
我想表达的是，如果你觉得这个话题很难面对，我说‘这不总是你的错’，听起来好像有时候真的是你的错。
I think what I'm trying to say is, if you're finding this subject difficult, if I want to say it's not always your fault, it implies that sometimes it is.
但我的意思是，这并不总是你的责任。
But what I mean is it's not always your responsibility
对。
Yes.
这其实是另一种角度。
Which is a different slant on it.
光是传递信息是不够的。
And that it's not enough to just give information.
真正关键的是，信息是在怎样的情感氛围中被传达的。
It's the whole emotional context in which that is given that is absolutely vital.
就像你说的，那些时刻会决定哀悼的过程，以及人们如何慢慢接受失去。
Those kind of moments, as you say, they shape the trajectory of the course of mourning and coming to terms with the loss.
这些时刻也特别鲜明，像是你这段旅程中的重要里程碑。
They also stand out as really sort of prime memories as kind of milestones in the course of your journey.
你会一次次回到这些记忆，它们真的、真的很重要。
And you come back to those, and they really, really matter.
你永远记得那个告诉你重大消息的人，不管是好消息还是坏消息。
You always remember the person that gave you big news, good or bad.
是的。
So Yes.
你希望别人记住你时，是带着善意的。
You want to be remembered well.
斯蒂芬，非常感谢你。
Stephen, thank you very much.
我们聊的这个话题真的特别重大，我敢说再聊几个小时都停不下来。
It's a really very big conversation, and I'm sure we could talk for several more hours.
我能念一首诗来收尾吗？
Can I read a poem to end?
是的。
Yes.
当然。
Of course.
我想用鲁米的一段诗来收尾。
I just wanted to conclude with the first stanza of Rumi.
鲁米是十三世纪的波斯诗人，他写过一首很美的诗，叫《芦笛之歌》。
Rumi was a thirteenth century Persian poet, and he's got a lovely poem called the song of the reed.
芦笛被从芦苇丛中折下，后来变成了一支笛子。
So it's the reed has been plucked from the bed of reeds and then becomes a flute.
《芦笛之歌》讲的是离开芦苇丛的分离，是一种哀伤的倾诉。
And so the song of the reed talks about the separation from the bed of reeds, and it's a kind of lamentation.
它表达了一种想要回到芦苇丛的深切怀念。
It's a kind of mourning to want to kind of go back to the bed of reeds.
我觉得这首诗特别贴切地描绘了正常与非正常的失去，以及整个哀悼的过程。
And I think it really captures both normal and abnormal loss so well and the whole process of grief.
大概是这样。
So it goes like this.
听这根芦苇在哀叹。
Listen to this reed as it is grieving.
它诉说着我们每一次离别。
It tells the story of our separations.
现在，是芦苇在说话了。
And now this is the reed speaking.
自从我被从芦苇丛中割下，我的呜咽便唤起了男女的哀伤。
Since I was severed from the bed of reeds, in my cry, men and women have lamented.
我需要那颗被离别撕碎的心，才能倾诉出这刻骨的痛。
I need the breast that's torn to shreds by parting to give expression to the pain of heartache.
凡是在远方漂泊的人，都盼望着重逢的那一天。
Whoever finds himself left far from home looks forward to the day of his reunion.
真美。
That's lovely.
我也能念一首诗吗？
Can I read a poem too?
这是我最喜欢的诗之一，里面有一句我特别钟爱的话，虽然我根本做不到，但我还是努力去想。
It's one of my favorites, and it's got one of my favorite lines of all time, which I find impossible to live by, but I try.
这首诗叫《野生之物的宁静》，作者是温德尔·贝里。
And it's The Peace of Wild Things by Wendell Berry.
当对世界的绝望涌上心头，我在夜里被一点声响惊醒，害怕我与孩子们的未来会怎样，我就走到水边，躺在那里，看水鸭安详地浮在水面，大鹭正在觅食。
When despair for the world goes in me and I wake in the night at the least sound, in fear of what my life and my children's lives may be, I go and lie down where the water drake rests in his beauty on the water, and the great heron feeds.
我走进野生之物的宁静里，它们从不为未来的悲伤而折磨自己。
I come into the peace of wild things, who do not tax their lives with forethought of grief.
我来到静水之畔，抬头看见满天星辰，默默等待着它们的光亮。
I come into the presence of still water, and I feel above me the day blind stars waiting with their light.
有一刻，我沉浸在世界的恩典中，感到无比自由。
For a time, I rest in the grace of the world and am free.
但我最爱的那句是：我走进野生之物的宁静里，它们从不为悲伤的思虑而耗尽生命。
But the line I love is, I come into the peace of wild things who do not tax their lives with full thought of grief.
我只是觉得，这句话特别重要，但作为一个人，真的很难做到。
I just think that's such an important line to But live it's impossible to do if you're a human being.
是的。
Yes.
对。
Yes.
我觉得这两句话都精准地捕捉到了失去的不可回避，以及它的真实存在。
I think both of them capture the impossibility of loss and the reality of it.
斯蒂芬，非常感谢你。
Well, Stephen, thank you very much.
希望今天的对话能给听众带来一些思考。
I hope this has given our listeners some food for thought.
我还想提一下，如果大家想听一些与此相关的其他播客的话。
I also wanted to mention if people would like to listen to some other podcasts relevant to this.
《自恋》第六季看起来好像跟这个主题不太搭，但我其实觉得特别相关，我和马克都感受到那种无法割舍、无法接受失去的困境。
Narcism in series six doesn't seem like a sort of neighborhood fit for this, but I actually think it's really relevant, Mark and I, about the inability to separate out and the inability to accept loss.
第七季还有一期是关于童年失去亲人的人，还有分娩创伤也在同一季。
There's also Adults Bereaved in Childhood in series seven and also Birth Trauma in the same series.
第八季有一期是关于婴儿夭折的，嘉宾是露西·东霍普。
There's Baby Loss with Lucy East Hope in series eight.
这一季里我还提到过，和亚历桑德拉·林谈身体形象的那期。
And in this series, the one I mentioned about body image with Alessandra Lim.
斯蒂芬，真的非常感谢你。
So Stephen, thank you so so much.
谢谢你，安娜丽莎。
Thank you Annalisa.
本系列由赫斯特·坎特制作，封面设计是洛·科尔，配乐由托比·邓汉姆创作。
The series is produced by Hester Cant, the artwork is by Lo Cole and our music composer is Toby Dunham.
如果你想读我的专栏，可以在《卫报》周六版上找到。
If you'd like to read my column, it's in the Guardian, Saturday magazine.
你好，我是安娜丽莎。
Hello, this is Annalisa.
我做这个播客，是因为我真心相信这个想法。
I started doing this podcast because it's an idea I really believe in.
所以我决定说到做到，自掏腰包来支持这个项目。
So much so that I decided to put my money where my mouth is and self fund the project.
我特别希望能让这个播客一直免费更新下去。
I really want to keep releasing this podcast for free.
如果你喜欢这期节目，一个能帮上忙的方式就是去我们的Acast支持页面，捐一点你能力范围内的钱。
So if you enjoy this episode, a way you can help is to visit our Acast supporter page and give what you can.
链接在节目简介里，你可以找到。
You'll find the link in the episode description.
谢谢。
Thank you.
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