高拉夫·卡帕迪亚谈纽约市、投资与当代艺术

这是我们一直在流程中持续努力改进的地方。

And that is something that we're always continuously trying to improve in our process.

是因为你对这个主题或行业了解不够，还是我们

Because you don't know enough about the topic or the sector Or we get

分心了，或者事情太忙，你知道，原因有很多。

distracted or things are busy or, you know, there's lots of reasons why.

记住，正如我提到的，我们在任何时候只持有10到15个公开头寸。

Now, remember, as I mentioned, we only own 10 to 15 public positions at a given time.

我们在任何时候持有的私募头寸甚至更少。

We own even fewer private positions at a given time.

所以标准非常高，对吧？

So the bar is extremely high, right?

所以考虑到我们的持有期加上我们持有的头寸数量之少，我们每年大约只向投资组合中添加一到三个新想法。

So if you think about our holding period plus how few positions we own, we're only adding one or two or three ideas in the Corpus every year or so.

因此我们保持着极高的标准，我认为这在投资中非常重要，但你不能对那些错过的机会产生FOMO（错失恐惧症）。

So we keep a super high bar, which I think is really, really important in investing, but then you can't have FOMO about the things that you missed.

我们不可能每次都做对。

We're never gonna get everything right.

我们只需要确保我们做对的事情是正确的。

We just have to make sure the things that we get are right.

在科技界，人们经常听到创始人能量或创始人模式的说法。

In the tech world, one hears all the time about founder energy or the founder mode.

这适用于投资公司吗？

Does that imply to investing companies?

天哪。

Oh my gosh.

那就告诉我们吧。

So tell us how.

听着，我觉得有种误解认为投资公司缺乏创业精神。

Look, I think there's something in the water that where people feel investing companies aren't entrepreneurial.

我认为最优秀的投资机构显然具有创业精神。

I think the best investment organizations are obviously entrepreneurial.

因此我认为，尽管投资行业的准入门槛很低，但市场上充斥着大量平庸的投资机构，它们缺乏那种创始人般的创业精神。

And so I think though because there are such low barriers to entry in investing, there's a lot of mediocre investment organizations that don't have that founder entrepreneurial energy against it.

我每天努力做的一件事，就是确保我们团队能保持这种创业精神。

I think one of the things that I try to do every day is to make sure we have that entrepreneurial energy against it.

但如果你纵观整个行业，对吧？

But if you look at all of them, right?

红杉资本就拥有极强的创业精神。

Sequoia has a ton of entrepreneurial energy.

安德森·霍洛维茨基金也具备深厚的创业基因。

Andreessen Horowitz has a great deal of entrepreneurial energy.

黑石集团更是充满创业活力。

Blackstone has so much entrepreneurial energy.

实际上，这些机构的商业嗅觉和创业热情之高令人惊讶。

It's actually kind of surprising how commercial and entrepreneurial people are.

不过我认为我们行业的独特之处在于，我们近乎偏执地追求进步与自我革新，保持着创始人引领的创新文化和开放思维。

I think we are somewhat unique though in our industry is that we have a maniacal focus on getting better and reinvention and having kind of that founder led culture of innovation and open mindedness.

你们如何通过招聘来防止公司变得过于松懈或自满？

And how do you hire to stop your company from becoming too soft or too complacent?

每个人都想要聪明人。

Everyone wants smart people.

金融行业竞争激烈，科技界也是如此。

There's a lot of competition in finance, also from the tech world.

是的，我认为这必须从创始人开始。

Yeah, I would say, look, it has to start with the founder.

很多组织都存在这个问题——任何专业服务机构、投资公司或律所都可能发生——高层变得懒惰了，对吧？

And so one of the things about many organizations, this could happen to any professional service organization, investment firm, or lawyer, is like the top gets lazy, Right?

这种文化会逐渐渗透到整个组织。

And so that culture kinda seeps all the way through.

所以首要任务就是保持紧绷的状态。

So the number one thing you have to do is keep the rope tight.

我们有个文化信条：严于律己，宽以待人。

We have this cultural mantra around rigor and kindness.

所以我们始终保持着这一点。

And so we keep that always.

所以如果我稍有松懈，所有人都会察觉到。

And so if I ever slow down, everyone will see it.

但我最重要的做法是让自己身边围绕着那些会直言不讳的人，确保如果我懈怠了，他们会提醒：嘿，别忘了我们彼此许下的承诺，要保持这种高昂的斗志。

But the number one thing I do is surround myself with people who will tell me the truth to make sure that if I am slowing down, that they will say, Hey, you have to remember the commitment we all made to each other and keep that energy high.

但另一个问题是，我认为太多投资公司仅凭简历、金融建模能力和GPA来选人。

But the other thing is I think too many investment firms select purely by resume and financial modeling skills and GPA.

虽然这些显然很重要，但张大卫有个很厉害的观点——

I think obviously that's important, but David Chang has this amazing- This

就是那位厨师张大卫。

is the chef, David Chang.

那位厨师，好的。

The chef, okay.

Momofuku餐厅的张大卫。

The Momofuku, David Chang.

Momofuku的大卫·张，他很厉害对吧？

The Momofuku, who's great, right?

他是最棒的。

He's the best.

但我从大卫那里学到的重要一点是，他有个理念：你不仅要足够优秀，还得有额外的闪光点。

But one of the great things I've learned from David is he has this concept of you have to be good enough and then you have to have something special on top.

这意味着，普通投资公司会选那些沃顿或哈佛GPA4.0、去过黑石集团、准备迎接新挑战的人。

And so what that means, like the average investment firm will pick someone who has a four point from Wharton or Harvard, and then went to Blackstone and then is ready for their next challenge.

这些人当然没问题。

And they'll be fine.

我认为我们的做法是——虽然也看这些——但我们更寻找那种额外的火花、额外的动力、额外的求知欲和创造力。

I think what we ended up doing is that, of course we do, but we look for like that extra spark, that extra gear, that extra curiosity, that extra ingenuity.

顺便说一句，我们在公司每个岗位都寻求这种特质，明白吗？

And that, by the way, we look for that at every position at the firm, right?

所以我们团队现在不到50人。

So we have little less than 50 people.

其中，10到12人是投资专业人士。

Of them, 10 to 12 are investment professionals.

其余人员从事非投资相关专业工作。

The rest are non investment professionals.

他们为投资流程提供支持。

They help support the investment process.

但在我看来，很多机构犯的另一个错误是降低了对非投资岗位的要求标准。

But the other mistake that a lot of organizations make, in my opinion, is they lower the bar for the non investment side.

我们对所有岗位都保持高标准。

We keep the bar high on everyone.

这为我们XN创造了充满活力、富有动能的团队文化，对此我感到非常自豪。

So that creates like an energy and a culture and a dynamism about what we do that I'm very proud of at XN.

所以你们这里采用的是开放式办公布局。

So you have an open plan office here.

是的。

Yeah.

人们声称这样不好。

People claim that's bad.

我从未被说服过，但要为开放式办公室辩护。

I've never been persuaded, but defend an open plan office.

为什么它好呢？

Why is it good?

我一直知道它会很好。

I always knew it was gonna be good.

我们一直采用这种布局。

We've had one forever.

我认为在当今投资趋势下它尤其合适。

I think it's particularly good today and where investing is going.

世界的互联程度前所未有。

The world is way more interconnected than ever.

简单来说，五年前或十年前谁能想到，现在我们需要同时讨论软件、电力和半导体呢？

And very simply, who would have thought of a world five years ago, ten years ago, where you have to have a conversation about software, power, and semiconductors altogether, right?

因此，开放式办公环境让组织能够运用苏格拉底式方法，促进彼此交流，激发我们可以深入探讨的好奇心。

And so the open plan allows the organization to basically use the Socratic method, talk to one another, create sparks of curiosity that we can pull the thread on.

如果我们都在独立办公室工作，我认为最终会导致分析公司的方式变得复杂得多，更加各自为政。

If we all worked in individual offices, I think you end up with a much more complicated way to analyze companies, much more siloed.

我认为不仅是我们公司，整个世界都在变得更加紧密相连。

And I think we as a firm, but the world at large is becoming much more connected.

你曾短暂退出投资界，对吧？

And for a brief while, you retired from investing, right?

后来你又回来了，这是怎么回事？

And then you came back, what's that story?

我职业生涯早期非常幸运。

I had like an incredibly fortunate early part of my career.

我曾是TPG Axle的年轻合伙人，那里堪称人才济济的摇篮。

So I was a young partner at a place called TPG Axle, which is an incredible hotbed of talent.

我认为我见过的一些最优秀的投资人才都曾在那里共事。

I think some of the best investment talent I've ever met all worked there.

后来我们都各自发展自己的事业了。

And then we all ended up doing our own things.

我和一位合伙人创办了一家名为索邦的公司。

I started a firm called Sorbonne with a partner.

后来我离开了那家公司。

And then I ended up leaving that firm.

我不认为那算是投资。

I wouldn't say investing.

我是从管理外部资金中退休，这是完全不同的概念。

I retired from managing outside capital, which is a very different thing.

今天我们所在的这个办公室，XN当时是我家族办公室的名字，因为我其实热爱投资，只是不确定我们能否用外部资金达到我期望的成功程度。

This office that we're sitting in today, XN was the name of my family office at the time because I actually loved investing and I just wasn't sure if we had a path to doing it as successfully as I wanted with outside capital.

所以有几年时间，我和这里的同事们基本上是用管理XN的理念来打理我自己的资金。

So for a couple of years, myself and my colleagues here, we managed basically my money with the same philosophy that we run XN in.

但这过程令人无比满足，因为投资带来的那种智力挑战的火花和纯粹性又回到了我身上。

But that was like incredibly satisfying because the spark and the purity of the intellectual challenge of investing kind of came back to me.

说实话，在我上一家公司工作的后期，我对投资过程和投资激情的热情远不如现在这么高涨。

To be honest, towards the end of my time at my previous firm, I was less enthusiastic about the process and the excitement of investing than I certainly am today.

因此，经历那段家族办公室的历程确实帮助我重新认识到并找回了投资的乐趣。

And so going through that family office process really helped to underscore and bring me back to the joy of investing.

从社会学角度看，纽约金融与伦敦金融有何不同？

Sociologically, how does New York City finance differ from London finance?

所以你在两个金融圈都工作过，对吧？

So you've done things in both worlds, right?

伦敦的金融氛围很独特，截然不同。

There's a feel to it in London, it's different.

是的，伦敦更保守些，更像银行家风格而非创业家气质。

Yeah, it's a little more buttoned up and much more banker like than entrepreneurial.

我认为美国，特别是纽约和加州，少了几分银行家的刻板，多了几分冒险投资者的冲劲。

And I would say America, I would say New York and California have a little bit more of the less the banker energy and more the swashbuckling investor energy.

所以即使在纽约，对吧？

And so even in New York, right?

纽约金融史上很多都是纯粹的冒险家。

A lot of the history of the finance in New York were like pure swashbucklers.

所以这里仍保留着些许那种气质，尽管我们做的事完全不同。

And so you have a little bit of that energy, even though we don't do the same thing at all.

比如，我们做的事和保罗·都铎·琼斯完全不同。

Like, don't do the same thing as Paul Tudor Jones at all.

我和亨利·克拉维斯的业务也毫无相似之处，但那种敢于豪赌、勇立潮头的精神已经渗透进这里的文化。

I don't do the same thing as Henry Kravis at all, but that, you know, taking really big bets, being out there, it kind of seeps into the culture here.

而在英国，情况几乎相反——至少我在那里时是这样。

Whereas almost in The UK, it's the opposite is true or had been true when I was there.

那么阿联酋的金融在这方面发展如何？

And how is UAE finance evolving in that regard?

我认为它发展得非常迅速。

I think it's evolving extremely quickly.

当然最初是大型主权财富基金主导，但现在由于新财富的不断涌现，正在发生两方面的深刻变化。

I think it of course started with the large sovereign wealth funds, but now because of the amount of wealth that's being created, you're having a much high Well, there's two things that are happening.

相对于英国和欧洲的税收制度，阿联酋极其优惠的税收政策正吸引着大批非美国公民涌入。

The very favorable tax regime relative to The UK and European tax regime are attracting non US citizens in droves to The UAE.

基本上没有所得税和资本利得税就能做到这一点。

Basically no income tax, no capital gains will do that.

我们美国人显然无法这样做。

We obviously, as Americans can't do that.

第二点是该地区正在创造巨额财富。

And the second thing is there's a tremendous amount of wealth being created in the region.

因此你既看到人才涌入，又看到资本流入和资本成熟化。

And so you have this influx of talent and then you have this influx of capital and this maturation of capital.

要知道，我在三四年前从未去过中东，但此后已经去过多次。

And so, you know, I had never been to The Middle East prior to three or four years ago, and I've been many times since then.

而且每次去都能看到翻天覆地的变化。

And it changes dramatically every single time I'm there.

如今那里洋溢着高度乐观精神和创业活力。

There is a very high degree of optimism and entrepreneurial energy there now.

AI如何影响你对投资、公司和行业的思考方式？

How does AI affect how you think about investing, companies, sectors?

它很可能会无处不在，对吧？

There's a good chance it spreads everywhere, right?

你如何将这一点纳入考量？

How do you take that into account?

我要说泰勒在这方面几乎是我的教练，因为他真的鼓励了我。

And I would say Tyler has been like almost my coach in this because he has really encouraged me.

我认为我们是一个非常现代化的组织。

I think we're a very modern organization.

我是个相当现代的人，但要真正拥抱AI所能做到的极致。

I'm pretty modern person, but to really embrace the max case of what AI can do.

我对AI在投资机构中的应用前景相当乐观。

I'm pretty optimistic as to what AI can do in an investment organization.

但回到正题，我认为需要大量创业精神来推动这件事。

But going back to, I think you need a lot of entrepreneurial energy to force it through.

SEC监管的投资公司内部存在大量冗余。

SEC regulated investment firms, there's just a ton of detritus within it.

关于AI的关键在于你必须持续推进并突破障碍。

And the thing about AI is you have to push forward and push through it.

我认为将会产生几项直接影响。

Now, I think there's gonna be a couple of approximate effects.

我想说投资本身和运营投资管理机构是两回事。

I would say on investing and then running an investment management organization are two different things.

我认为对投资的直接影响是，它将更快实现更优质、更深入的分析。

The proximate effects, I think, on investing are going to be, it's going to allow better, faster, more in-depth analysis much more quickly.

我们的分析师大量时间都耗费在企业初步评估上。

And so, so much of our analyst time is spent on initial evaluations of companies.

因此我预期在短期内——未来一年内——就能从AI获得巨大杠杆效应。

And so I expect that in the next very short run, within the next year, to be able to be You have a lot of leverage from AI.

这将使我们的分析师、我和其他合伙人能把时间集中在运用判断力对事实材料进行品味评估上。

That allows actually our analysts and myself and other partners here to spend most of our energy applying judgment and taste to the kind of the corpus of facts.

我现在总爱说的一句话是，如果朱利安·罗伯逊来我办公室打开我的电脑，他会立刻知道该怎么做。

And right now, one of the things I always like to say is if Julian Robertson came to my office and opened up my desktop, he would know exactly what to do.

无非是彭博终端、Excel表格之类的工具。

It's Bloomberg, it's Excel, it's etcetera.

我认为随着定制化工具和定制化分析等的出现，这种情况将发生翻天覆地的变化。

I think that's about to change really dramatically with custom tooling, custom analysis, etcetera.

这是投资层面的变化。

So that's on the investing side.

我认为另一个不那么直观的方面是，运营一家投资机构需要投入大量精力。

I think one of the other things that is also non intuitive is a lot goes into running an investment organization.

法律方面，合规负担远超想象。

Legal, the compliance burdens are off the charts.

运营、税务等等。

Operations, tax, etcetera.

我认为在提升生活质量和准确性方面存在巨大机遇。

I think there's a huge opportunity in making the quality of life and accuracy much better there.

所以我认为将会产生双重影响。

So I think there's gonna be a twofold impact.

但我也认为大多数投资机构不具备实施变革的能力。

But I also think most investment organizations do not have the wherewithal to go through change.

但正是因为你们处于创始人模式，你才认为他们有这种能力，希望他们有。

But it's because yours is in founder mode that you think they do, hope they do.

是的。

Yeah.

还有其他一些我认为处于创始人模式的组织，我想他们也会这样做。

And there's other organizations that are, I think, in founder mode, I think they will as well.

比如，我认为Thrive就会。

Like, I think Thrive will.

我认为许多已经接纳这一理念的组织都会如此。

I think a lot of organizations will that have embraced this.

但如果你看看我们这个子行业的历史——公开市场投资、部分私募投资——整个行业的压力都在阻碍创新。

But if you look at the history of our sub industry within, so public markets investing, some private investing, the general industry pressures encourage you to not innovate.

因此，创新确实需要付出巨大努力。

And so it really takes a lot of effort to innovate.

所以我认为，创始人模式在这方面将至关重要。

And so founder mode, I think, is gonna be really important in that.

我昨天看到一则新闻标题。

So there's a headline I read, I think, yesterday.

摩根大通将投入巨额资金

JPMorgan is gonna spend some large amount

20亿，20亿，20亿。

2,000,000,000 to get 2,000,000,000 2,000,000,000.

是的。

Yeah.

你读到这个时，有什么想法？

And when you read that, what do you think?

毫无想法。

Nothing.

没什么想法。

Nothing.

是啊，这就是头条新闻。

Yeah, I That is the headline.

对，我觉得没什么特别的。

Yeah, I think nothing.

首先，我想说几点看法。

I think, first, I will say a couple things.

很多人——当然摩根大通是个了不起的机构——但很多人都在从事制造头条的生意。

A lot of people, and this is not JP Morgan, obviously it's an incredible organization, but a lot of people are in the headline generating business.

就像我们之前讨论的，我们从事的是创造实际成果的生意。

As we talked prior, we're in the results generating business.

因此在技术变革时期，这会带来巨大差异。

And so in periods of technological change, that separates a great deal.

所以有很多头条新闻我会选择忽略。

And so there's a lot of headlines I would ignore.

我还想说，现在还为时过早。

I would also say it's like very early.

我们正处于AI发展的更早期阶段。

We are way earlier evolution of AI.

因此我非常怀疑很多公司，比如金融机构，是否真的像他们声称的那样投入了大量资金，因为实际应用场景和系统整合还处于非常初期的阶段。

So I'm very skeptical that a lot of companies, like financial institutions, are spending as much as they claim to be yet because the use cases and the integrations are still very early in process to do.

那你个人用AI来做什么呢？

And what do you use AI for personally?

嗯，我过去的学习方式之一是——回顾过去，我一直是个对金融以外很多事物都充满好奇心的人。

Well, so one of the ways I've historically learned is, so we go back, I've always been a really curious person about more than just finance, quite a lot of things.

我以前会聘请私人教师。

I used to hire tutors.

比如我想学艺术，就会给当地大学艺术史系发邮件，他们会派个研究生来，我付钱请他们教我。

So if I wanted to learn about art, I'd email the art history department of a local university and they'd send me a master's student, I'd pay them.

然后他们会为我定制课程。

And they'd create a custom curriculum for me.

我觉得自己对莎士比亚了解得还不够深入。

I felt like I didn't know enough about Shakespeare.

我也做了同样的事。

I did the same thing.

我认为现在将AI作为知识增强工具已经很了不起了。

I think already using AI as a knowledge augmenter is amazing.

这就是我个人目前使用AI的方式。

So that's how I personally use AI right now.

无论是通识还是专业领域，当我想深入研究某个主题时，它都是我的首选。

If I wanna go in-depth in a subject matter, general or specific, it's my first port of call.

现在我有很多关于博物馆和艺术的问题，我知道你是惠特尼美术馆的董事，所以不会问你惠特尼的事，因为要你在公开场合谈论这些可能会让你为难。

Now I have many questions about museums and art, and I know you're on the board of the Whitney, so I'm not asking you about the Whitney because it might be awkward for you to speak about that on the record.

但如果我去大多数艺术博物馆，看到礼品店和餐厅，以前这些区域总是太小。

But if I go to most art museums and I see the gift shop and the restaurant, used to be those are always too small.

我们现在是否走到了另一个极端——这些配套设施变得过大了？

Are we now at the point where those are too large?

或者你有什么看法？

Or what's your opinion?

我的总体观点是：对我来说，博物馆礼品店永远不会太大。

There will never be a museum gift shop too big for me is my general opinion.

不会。

No.

我认为这因机构而异。但举个例子，现代艺术博物馆通过MoMA商店将博物馆的审美带到了许多其他地方。

I I think it varies deeply by institution, But I think one of the things as an example, MoMA has done via MoMA store outside is they've taken the sensibilities of the museum and brought it to a lot of other places.

我认为这某种程度上是博物馆的核心目的之一。

And I think that's kind of one of the core purposes of the museum.

首先，我还没见过哪家礼品店或餐厅不是人满为患的。

And so, no, I I first of all, I haven't been to a a gift shop or restaurant that's not extremely crowded.

所以看起来它们应该

So it seems like they should be

所以它们还是应该再大些。

So they still should be larger.

艺术博物馆最常见的筹款错误是什么？

What's the most common fundraising mistake that art museums make?

我认为值得思考的是，当我查看边际革命评论时，发现人们可能不太理解博物馆的运作方式。

So I think I it's worthwhile, and when I was looking at the marginal revolution comments, I think people may not understand like how museums work and operate.

因此我对博物馆运作模式的理解是：它们是由私人资本主要资助的公共产品。

And so one of the ways I think about my scheme of the way museums work is that they're public good that's largely financed by private capital.

几乎所有的博物馆都在运营赤字下运作。

And so almost all museums operate at an operating deficit.

这是我认为人们应该认识到的首要事实——这些遍布全球的杰出文化机构都是由希望将文化带给世界的人们资助的。

And so that's like the number one thing that I think people should realize, which is these amazing cultural institutions all over the world are financed by people who wanna bring that more into the world.

这不是一项营利性事业。

It's not a for profit endeavor.

它确实是公共产品的一部分。

It's not a it really is like a part of a public good.

因此在这个框架下，显然你需要进行筹款活动。

So within that, there's obviously fundraising that you need to do.

这种压力在过去——我想说的是上一届政府时期——变得更加严峻，但总体来说，通货膨胀已经造成了严重影响。

That pressure has gotten way more acute over the last, I would say, you know, previous administration, but just in general, inflation has taken a toll.

门票收入在运营预算中占比相对较小。

Admissions are relatively small portion of the operating budget.

因此未来将面临越来越大的压力，需要采取更多措施，包括藏品出售、从藏品中出售作品，以及向大型捐赠者筹集资金。

And so there's going to be more and more pressure on doing a few things, including deaccessioning work, so selling work that are in the collections, raising capital from large donors.

我认为博物馆可能犯的最大错误，尤其是在公共机构中，是让筹款活动凌驾于使命之上。

I think the biggest mistake a museum could make, especially at, like, a public institution, is to have fundraising override the mission.

让捐赠者，包括像我这样的捐赠者——我认为在这些问题上我的判断相当准确——过度影响项目，过度影响社区。

To have donors, including donors like me, who I think my judgment is pretty good in these matters, overly influence program, overly influence community.

我认为这是机构可能犯的最大错误，而且随着时间的推移，他们总会后悔。

I think that is the biggest mistake that institutions make and over time, they always regret it.

博物馆是否应该将更多作品展出在墙上？

Should museums put more works out on the walls?

我看到太多空白的墙面空间，虽然把画挂在通往男厕所的路上显得地位不高，但我希望它们能被展示出来

I see so much blank wall space, and I know it's low status to put pictures on the way to the men's room, but I want them

去做这件事。

to do it.

他们应该这样做吗？

Should they do it?

我认为你提出了一个更广泛的问题，即大多数博物馆的藏品中只有1%曾公开展出过。

I think you bring about, I would say, a broader question, which is 1% of most museums' archive is ever on display.

我个人认为这是一种悲剧。

I think that personally is a tragedy.

我认为在数字世界和日益增长的实体世界中，将更多作品呈现给大众蕴含着巨大机遇。

I think there is a huge opportunity in a digital world and an increasing physical world to take more of your work and bring it out to the masses.

我认为最优秀的博物馆正努力创建在线互动内容，让人们能够观赏和研究大量作品。

I think the best museums are working really hard to create interactive things online so you could see and study lots of works.

我不确定你是否了解VNA博物馆在英国（伦敦郊外）对其藏品仓库的改造方案。

I think what the VNA did, I'm not sure if you're familiar with what the VNA museum did with their storage in The UK, it's outside of London.

他们打造了一个精美的站点，这个仓库本身就成为了一座博物馆。

They created a beautiful site, a museum unto itself of storage.

我认为这是个绝妙的主意。

And I think that's like a brilliant idea.

所以他们是否应该在墙上展示更多作品呢？这超出了我的职权范围。

And so should they put more works on the wall, you know, above my pay grade?

博物馆是否应该利用他们庞大的档案和藏品，通过数字和实体方式更多地呈现给世界？

Should the museums be using their very significant archives and collections and bring it more out into the world digitally and physically?

毫无疑问应该。

Absolutely.

人工智能将如何重塑艺术博物馆和艺术界？

How will AI reshape art museums and the world of art?

先把AI生成的艺术放在一边。

Putting aside AI generated Yeah.

其实这个问题提得很好，

Put that well, actually,

会在很多方面产生影响。

in in quite a number of ways.

我认为我见过最有趣的应用场景之一，就是让任何语言的游客都能在博物馆获得个性化的深度导览体验。

I think one of the really interesting use cases that I've seen is allowing any language visitor to have their own personalized in-depth tour of a museum.

想想看，很多博物馆的参观体验就是走马观花转一圈——因为太拥挤无法沉浸，对艺术品或艺术家也知之甚少。

And so if you just think about because there's so many museum experiences where you just like go and walk in a circle because it's like too crowded, you can't engage, you don't know as much about the art or the artist.

那些展品说明字太小，各种问题对吧？

It's like the captions are too small, all of the stuff, right?

或者你不懂博物馆使用的语言等等情况。

Or you don't speak the language of the museum or whatever the case may be.

我觉得这将成为一套令人惊艳的前沿工具——通过AR结合AI，你能更广泛地理解作品背景。

I think that's gonna be like an amazing set of promising instruments, which is you can use AR plus AI to understand the context of work much more broadly.

现在说说惠特尼美术馆，它最重要但游客可能不了解的优势是什么？

Now about the Whitney, what is the biggest or most important strength of the Whitney that say even people who go might not know about?

他们对社区的投入。

Their commitment to community.

我认为其中一个关键（优势）是社区通达性，而且他们确实有着非凡的原则导向。

I think one of the mistake, community access and really they're extraordinarily principles driven.

我坚信艺术自由，也坚信博物馆应该面向所有人开放。

Really a big believer in artistic freedom, a really big believer in the museum should be for everybody.

25岁以下的任何人都可以免费参观博物馆。

Anyone under 25 can show up and go to the museum for free.

这简直太棒了。

That's like amazing.

因此我认为这是他们的文化信条。

And so I think there's cultural tenets.

他们有一个非常明确的使命。

They have a very specific mission.

这是惠特尼美国艺术博物馆。

It's the Whitney Museum of American Art.

几乎全是当代艺术。

It's almost all contemporary art.

与现代艺术博物馆截然不同。

It's very different than the Museum of Modern Art.

因此他们严格遵循使命，同时也恪守原则。

And so they hew very closely to the mission, but they also hew very closely to the principles.

现在我们正坐在一个房间，欣赏卡拉·沃克的一件精彩作品。

Now we're sitting in a room with a wonderful work by Kara Walker.

她是我最喜爱的当代艺术家之一。

She's a favorite contemporary artist of mine.

你会如何描述这件作品让卡拉·沃克显得特别的原因？

How would you articulate what makes this Kara Walker special?

我喜欢卡拉·沃克的许多作品，但总觉得有些泛泛。

There's a lot of Kara Walker that I like, but it's a bit generic.

我觉得同样的作品可能看过200遍，也许你经历多了，某些作品就会真正脱颖而出。

I feel I could see the same thing 200 times, maybe you do over time, and some works really stand out.

你认为这件作品为何如此出色？

How do you think about why this one is amazing?

是的，一件艺术品在艺术家创作生涯中脱颖而出的那种难以言喻的特质，正是我自开始收藏以来一直试图精进理解的东西。

Yeah, the je ne sais quoi of what makes an art piece stand out in someone's practice is something that I've been trying to refine my engagement of since I've been collecting.

我认为在这件作品中，虽然人们无法亲眼所见，但它确实精雕细琢到了极致。

I think in this, people can't see the work, but in this particular work, it is so meticulously crafted.

其主旨表达得异常清晰。

It is so clear what the point is.

尽管主题极其复杂，但作品的视觉呈现既精美绝伦又震撼人心。

And it is so beautifully put together, even though it's a really complicated subject matter, it's visually arresting.

因此我认为这件作品的成功之处正在于此。

And so I think in this case, that's what works here.

对你而言，拉希德·约翰逊的作品有什么特别之处？

What to you is special about the work of Rashid Johnson?

拉希德是个非常了不起的人物。

Rashid is a really incredible person.

我知道关于艺术存在很多疑问。

So I know there's a lot of questions about art.

或许我该稍微说明下我的艺术收藏理念。

Maybe I'd just clarify a little bit about my approach to art collecting.

我想说的是，某种程度上，我希望确保人们理解，我确实努力避免成为那种涉足艺术界的金融人士的刻板印象。

So one of the things I wanna say, to some extent, I wanna make sure people understand, I certainly try not to be the cliche of the finance guy who gets into art.

事实上，在我爱上投资之前，我就已经爱上了艺术。

I actually fell in love with art before I fell in love with investing.

所以从我很早一穷二白的时候就开始收藏艺术品了。

And so I have been collecting since I was broke very early.

当我真正认真开始收藏时，我29岁，做了一个非常明确的决定。

When I got serious about collecting, I was 29 years old and I made a really specific decision.

我首要认同的身份是美国人，因此我想收藏美国艺术品。

The number one thing I identify is as an American and I wanted to collect American art.

我做的第二件事是收藏与我同辈艺术家的作品。

The second thing I did was I wanted to collect artists of my generation.

所以当我29岁真正开始收藏时，我就决定要建立一个非常明确的收藏体系。

So when I was 29 years old, when I started really collecting, I decided I'm gonna have a really specific collection.

这个收藏体系将聚焦与我同龄的艺术家，你知道的，当时29岁，现在44岁，上下浮动二十岁左右。

And that collection is gonna be artists my age, you know, 29 at the time, 44 today, plus or minus twenty years.

我并没有收藏九岁孩子的作品，但我希望这个标准能一直贯彻下去。

I wasn't collecting any nine year olds, but I wanted to keep that criteria all the going all the way through.

拉希德显然完全符合这个标准，而且我们很幸运地逐渐成为了非常好的朋友。

Rashid obviously fits really squarely within that, and we've been very lucky to become really good friends over time.

但关于他作品最惊人的一点是，除了视觉上引人注目外，它在智力层面如此复杂，让人久久难忘。

But one of the most amazing things about his work is that in addition to being visually arresting, it is so intellectually complex that it stays with you.

它描绘了许多情感、许多焦虑、许多我们共有的不安全感。

It is a portrait of a lot of feelings, a lot of anxiety, a lot of insecurities that I think we all have.

然后这些感受会不断萦绕在你心头。

And then it kind of keeps coming back to you.

因此，无论是作为艺术家还是个人，他身上有太多我欣赏的地方，但我认为他敢于冒险并挖掘那些真正令人不适的领域的能力尤为突出。

And so there's so many things I love about him as an artist and as a person, but I think his ability to take risks and exploit the really uncomfortable, like rise to the top.

你知道吗？

You know?

因为他本可以谈论一个安于现状的人。

Because he could talk about someone who could coast.

拉希德本可以余生只创作让观众焦虑的画作，过着非常舒适的生活。

Rashid could just make anxious audience paintings for the rest of his life and live a very comfortable living.

但他决定不这么做。

He's he's decided not to do that.

我和几个朋友去看了他在纽约市一家桑拿房里编排的《荷兰人》演出。

Myself and a few of our friends went to see he put on a production of the Dutchman in a sauna in New York City.

对吧？

Right?

他导演了一出戏剧，在一个令人惊叹的... 这对一个画家来说真是冒险。

He directed a play in a amazing like, that's a real risk for an artist that's a painter.

他正在创作这些极其复杂的装置艺术。

He's making these really complicated installations.

这也是一种真正的冒险。

That's also a real risk.

他还在拍电影。

He's making movies.

所以他正在突破自己的创作边界。

So he's pushing his practice.

他让自己处于不适的状态。

He's making himself uncomfortable.

而作为艺术观众，你也能感受到那种强烈的能量。

And as a viewer of the art, you also feel a lot of that energy.

购买和鉴赏艺术会让你成为更好的企业投资者吗？

Does buying art and evaluating art make you a better investor in companies?

百分之百会。

100%.

但方式可能和你想象的不同。

In a different way than you think.

或者我不完全清楚你的想法，但这是我的理解方式。

Or maybe I don't know exactly how you think, but here's how I think about it.

它确实有几个方面的作用。

It does a couple of things.

我不认同将艺术视为一种资产类别。

I don't believe in art as an asset class.

我从未认同，也永远不会认同。

I never have, never will.

我相信它本质上是一种智力锻炼，能激活我右脑思维，让我对周遭世界有更丰富的认知。

I believe it is ultimately intellectual exercise that exercises the right side of my brain and gives me more context about the world around me.

我认为投资的本质是培养判断力与培养个人品味的修炼过程。

I think investing is ultimately about judgment and developing your own taste.

艺术收藏或其他任何形式的收藏鉴赏，本质上都是相通的。

And art collecting or any collecting or any connoisseurship is kind of the same way.

它迫使你真正审视何为重要，培养自己的判断力，而非简单套用他人的评价标准。

So it forces you to really examine what's important, to really examine what makes something outstanding, to not just take somebody else's judgment and taste and apply it to yourself, but to develop your own.

因此，这些在过程中培养的软技能，我认为对所有领域都有裨益。

And so all of these soft skills that you develop along the way, I think help in all domains.

萨尔曼·图尔

Salman Tour,

他为什么是个有趣的画家？

why is he an interesting painter?

萨尔曼·图尔，对于不了解他的人，我推荐两篇文章。

Salman Tour, for those of you who don't know, there's two articles I'd encourage.

《纽约时报》有一篇关于他作品的报道，《纽约客》也有一篇。

There's a New York Times article about his work and there's a New Yorker article about his work.

萨尔曼的作品，无论是从普遍意义还是特定角度来看，我都觉得很有意思。

Salman, I find both interesting in a general manner and in a very specific manner as well.

我非常着迷于精湛技艺与卓越成就，我认为从技术层面来说，他是有史以来最有天赋的画家之一。

I am very drawn to virtuosity and excellence, and I think he is technically one of the most talented painters ever.

他简直不可思议。

He's incredible.

第二点让我着迷的是他的创作方式。

The second thing is I'm fascinated by his practice.

他完全依靠记忆进行绘画创作。

He paints and draws entirely from memory.

他完全不使用参考图像。

He does not use a reference image.

一切都存在于他的脑海之中。

It's all in his mind's eye.

他将这种技术上的精湛技艺以近乎令人难以置信的方式呈现在画布或木板上——那种细节程度、卓越水平和精确度简直让人瞠目结舌。

And he takes this technical virtuosity and puts it on canvas or wood in a way that's almost like mind boggling, the level of detail, the level of excellence, level of precision.

看到有人以古典大师的技法创作当代作品，实在令人耳目一新。

And so it's really refreshing to see someone almost with the technique of an old masters working on a contemporary work.

因此我认为他在整体艺术造诣上具有非凡的才华。

So I think he's extraordinarily talented in a general artistic manner.

对我来说，这实际上也意义非凡——作为印度裔美国人，我第一次看到萨姆的巡回作品时，他有个名为《疲惫旅人》的系列，描绘的基本上是9/11事件后像我这样长相的人通过TSA安检的情景。

I would say for me, it's actually also been really meaningful because Indian American, the first work I saw of Sam on tour, he had a series called the weary traveler or the Traveler, which was about basically people who look like me going through TSA post nineeleven.

如果你们有人像我一样经历过TSA安检，就知道那绝不是最愉快的体验——尤其在9/11事件之后。

And if any of you have traveled to me through TSA, it's not the most pleasant experience or certainly wasn't post nineeleven.

所以当看到画作上呈现我经常感受到的情绪时，那种震撼对我来说简直难以形容。

And so just seeing the feelings that I often felt on a painting were like absolutely crazy to me.

耆那教哲学中有强调多重视角重要性的理念。

Now there's something in Jain philosophy that emphasizes the importance of multiple perspectives.

你觉得这种观念来自你的成长经历吗？

Do you think you got any of that from your upbringing?

我得到了

I got a

很多这方面的...我不认为我主要从耆那教获得这种特定观念，但确实从母亲那里继承了很多。

lot of it from I don't think I got a lot of it, that specific thing, from Jainism, but I got a lot of that from my mother.

我母亲，现在回想起来，我其实很像她。她对成为多个领域的专家都充满兴趣，因为她认为这样能让她成为更完整的人。

My mother, she's I guess, like, now that I think about it, I'm a lot like her, but she would be very interested in being expert in a variety of fields just because she thought it would make her a more complete person.

她最初是数据科学家。

She started as a data scientist.

退休后创办了一家珠宝公司。

When she retired, she started a jewelry company.

68岁时还因此搬到了中国居住。

From that, actually moved to China when she was 68 years old.

她没告诉我们就搬到了中国的一个陌生城市，并在那里上了艺术学校。

She moved to a random city in China without telling us and went to art school there.

所以我血液里多少流淌着一点这种特质。

So there's a little bit of that that kind of runs through my There's a lot of that that runs through my veins.

也许她是从耆那教和耆那教成长环境中获得的，但我想这就是我的来源。

So maybe she got it from her Jainism and her Jain upbringing, but I think that's where I got it from.

回到那个你没做的金融交易话题，能举个符合你收藏标准但还没购买其作品的知名艺术家例子吗？

And to go back to this finance idea of the trade you didn't make, what's an example of an artist who has a good reputation, who fits the criteria where you collect, but you haven't bought a work from that artist?

你如何看待自己还没购买的原因？

And how do you think about why you haven't?

马克·格罗斯让可能很符合这个标准，我认为相当典型。

Marc Grosjean probably fits that criteria, I think, pretty well.

就艺术而言，根据我的经验，不仅仅是满足标准就购买那么简单。

It's just, you know, with art, you have to, in my experience, it's not just buying the criteria.

这些标准只是缩小了选择范围。

The criteria narrows the funnel.

但接下来你得思考，这究竟意味着什么？

But then you have to say like, what does it mean?

我理解它吗？

Do I get it?

我喜欢它吗？

Do I love it?

我能与之共处吗？

Can I live with it?

所有这些因素如何综合考量？

How do all of these things add up together?

马克的作品，我知道人们很喜欢，但它从未打动过我。

Mark's work, know people love it, it just never stuck with me.

还有那么多我认为对其他人来说更难理解的艺术家。

There's so many other artists that I think are harder for other people.

这又回到了一个观点：无论是投资、艺术、房地产还是任何广泛话题，人们都需要培养自己的品味和判断力，选择适合自己的‘衣裳’。

That kind of goes back to one needs to develop their own taste and judgment about whatever the topic is, whether it's investing, whether it's art, whether it's real, whatever the broad topic is, you need to put on clothes that are comfortable for you.

因此对我来说，我已经培养出对自己喜好、吸引我的事物以及热爱之物的自信判断。

And so for me, I have a very I've developed a confident sense of what I like and what I'm drawn to and what I love.

所以我坚持这一点。

And so I stick with that.

艺术经典将如何演变？

How is the artistic canon going to evolve?

如果有人问起1960年代，你会提到安迪·沃霍尔、罗伊·利希滕斯坦、弗兰克·斯特拉等等。

So if someone asks you about the 1960s, you say Andy Warhol, Roy Lichtenstein, Frank Stella, and so on and so on.

无论我们是否都认同，很明显今天你会想到一批名字，而你们这代人正在收藏的作品中，艺术经典会继续保持混乱状态，还是会出现筛选过程——二十年后将浮现出七八个超越其他所有人的名字？

And whether or not we all agree, it's pretty clear there's a list of names from If that you think about today and the generation you're collecting from, is the canon just gonna stay a mess, or is there gonna be a winnowing where twenty years from now, there'll be, like, seven to 10 names who stand out above all others?

这个过程会如何发生？

How's that happening?

你知道，有趣的是我观察...

You know, the the funny thing is I I look.

首先我不是艺术史学家。

First of I'm not an art historian.

对吧？

Right?

所以我是

So I'm a

不

No.

你身处其中

You're you're in it.

你也有切身利益关系

You have skin in the game.

我有切身利益关系

I have skin in game.

你是真的在乎

You really care.

但我想如果你审视每个时期，在当时都是比较模糊的

But I think if you look at every period, in that period, it was kinda unclear.

总会有个筛选过程。

There's always a winnowing.

所以总是会有，几乎就像寒武纪大爆发那样，最终筛选出最重要的人物。

And so there's always, like, almost like a Cambrian explosion that winnows down into the people that were most important.

我认为你现在其实已经开始看到这种现象，当把艺术的商业性和批判性分开时，艺术家们正逐渐聚集在比十年前或十五年前更少数量的名字周围。

I think you're actually starting to see it now where, you know, artists more and more, when you separate the commercial aspect of someone's art and the critical aspects, they are kind of coalescing around a smaller group of names than you would have started with ten or fifteen years ago.

我预计这种趋势会持续下去，但老实说，要预测具体是哪些名字，我只能做出有根据的猜测，不可能完全准确。

I expect that to continue, but honestly, my ability to predict who those names are, I'll have educated guesses, but I'm not gonna be perfect at it.

但假设我让你提名一个，并不是说这是你最喜欢的，对吧？

But let's say I ask you for one, and it's not that you're saying they're your favorite, right?

而是最有可能在二三十年后被载入艺术史册的。

But most likely to end up in the canon twenty, thirty years from now.

我认为是达娜·舒茨。

I think Dana Schutz.

我认为达娜·舒茨是位非常重要的画家，真正突破了界限，非常聪明，极具思想性，也很有才华。

I think Dana Schutz is a really important painter, really pushed boundaries, very smart, very cerebral, very talented.

我认为她很可能会被载入艺术史册。

I think she's likely to end up in the canon.

就这一点而言，她目前可能被低估了。

It's probably underrated today vis a vis that.

我认为鲁道夫·斯滕格尔没有被低估，但他极有可能成为像克里斯托弗·伍尔那样极其重要的艺术家。

I think Rudolf Stengel is not underrated, but I think is highly likely to be an extremely important artist as is Christopher Wool.

所以我认为你们已经开始越来越多地看到这种现象。

So I think you're you are starting to see more and more of that.

我敢打赌你提到的拉希德和萨尔曼最终也会名列其中。

I would bet Rashid and Salman, who you referenced, end up there as well.

是什么让Rebel系列如此出色？

What makes the Rebel collection amazing?

我没说过它很出色。

I didn't say it was amazing.

迈阿密的那家博物馆非常不错。

The museum in Miami is very good.

确实很不错。

It is very good.

应该说——虽然我还没在新鲁贝尔美术馆待够时间——但迈阿密我最喜欢却已不复存在的地方是德拉·克鲁兹收藏馆，那里既平易近人又充满惊喜。

Would say, and I haven't spent enough time at the new Rubel, but my favorite place that no longer exists in Miami was the Dela Cruz collection, where you can go there and it was both accessible and exciting.

它不会让人望而生畏。

It was not too intimidating.

它的关闭真是场悲剧。

And it's such a tragedy that it closed.

鲁贝尔的新分馆开幕时举办了很棒的展览。

The new branch of the Rubel, opened with a great exhibit.

但现在的展品实在不怎么样。

And what's in there now is not very good at all.

所以我对它目前持悲观态度。

So I'm, I suppose, bearish on it at the moment.

是啊。

Yeah.

我认为还有一点，就是市面上有很多糟糕的艺术品。

I think there's a One thing also, there's a lot of bad art.

这不是针对鲁贝尔的评论，但我觉得任何展示大量艺术品的机构，往往都会有很多糟糕的作品。

This is not a comment on the rubella, but like I think any institution that shows a lot of art, there's often a lot of bad art.

你认为当前艺术市场存在所谓的套利机会吗？

Do you think there is what you might call an arbitrage in current art market?

比如有人会说，如果你喜欢纺织品，它们比画作便宜得多，而且你花同样的钱能获得更多美学价值。

So some people will say, Well, if you love textiles, they're really much cheaper than paintings and you can get more aesthetic value for the dollar you spend.

你可能同意也可能不同意，但这只是关于艺术市场套利的一个例子。

You may or may not agree, but that's just an example of a claim about an arbitrage in art markets.

也有人说素描画。

Or some people say drawings.

是的，还有人推荐古典大师作品。

Yeah, some people say old masters.

对。

Yeah.

你知道，汤姆·希尔曾以购买古代青铜器来搭配他的当代艺术收藏而闻名。

You know, I think Tom Hill famously bought like old ancient bronzes to compliment his contemporary art collection.

关于当前艺术市场，我想说的是，我们正处于一次大洗牌中，许多平庸的作品和画廊逐渐退出舞台，剩下的都是更高质量、更高保真的作品。

The one thing I would just say about the art market right now, we're in a mega reset as a lot of the mediocre works and mediocre galleries kind of exit stage left and you're left with like just higher quality, higher fidelity work.

我确实认为艺术中‘何为最佳价值’这个概念很复杂，因为我不确定这应该成为考量因素。

I do think this concept of like, what is the best value is complicated in art because I'm not sure that that should matter.

我认为在追求艺术时，如果你不把它视为资产类别——我个人视其为一种智识追求——那么金钱就不那么重要了。

I think in the pursuit of art, if you don't think of it as an asset class, which, you know, I I view it as an intellectual pursuit, the dollars are less important.

所以你不会试图在达娜·舒茨的素描和油画之间套利——虽然理论上是可以这样操作的。

So I you're you're not trying to arb the Dana Schutz drawing versus the Dana Schutz painting, which, theoretically one could do.

但也许你只能负担得起其中一件，对吧？

But maybe you can afford only one of them, right?

是啊。

Yeah.

但我觉得如果你一件都买不起，也没什么关系。

But I think it's also okay if you could afford none of them.

我认为如果你能欣赏它们——显然绝大多数人都是可以的。

And I think if you can appreciate them, which is I think obviously the vast majority of people.

话虽如此，我认为可能有一大批——这或许有争议——但我觉得有一整个杰出的白人男性艺术家群体被忽视了。如果你在意这个领域，会发现其中蕴藏着巨大的价值，这些价值将在艺术界变得非常重要，特别是在当代艺术市场存在大量价值的情况下。

And so that being said, I do think there's probably a tremendous, this may be controversial, but I think there's a whole amazing group of white male artists that are probably overlooked and there are huge values in if you care about that, that I think will be very, important in art where there is like a lot of value in the contemporary art market.

现在我们有些共同的朋友，我不便指名道姓，但信不信由你，他们多少有些鄙夷当代艺术。

Now we have some mutual friends and I won't name names, but believe it or not, they somewhat scorn contemporary art.

我相信。

I believe it.

虽然他们非常非常聪明。

Although they're highly, highly intelligent.

你觉得他们错过了什么？

What is it you think they're missing?

你会如何阐述这一点？

How would you articulate that?

你知道吗，这很有趣。

What I would You know, it's interesting.

我想你提到的那些朋友，甚至不特指具体的人，如果泛泛而论的话，本质上都是硅谷的未来主义者。

I think some of the friends you're talking about, and not even the specific people, but if you broaden, are essentially Silicon Valley futurists.

我可以说，总体而言，他们对当代艺术的吸引力既表现出轻蔑又感到困惑。

And I would say broadly speaking, they have been, I would say, both disdainful and confused about the attraction of contemporary art.

我还会说，其中一些人，尤其是更年轻的群体，甚至对机构和城市的作用也表现出轻蔑或困惑。

And I would say some of them are even disdainful or confused, especially much younger ones about the role of institutions and cities as an example.

我想说几点。

I'd say a couple things.

第一，不是所有人都需要喜欢所有事物，这是最重要的。

One, not everyone needs to like everything, which is like the most important thing.

对吧？

Right?

我有点觉得不是所有人都需要喜欢所有东西，

I kinda feel everyone doesn't need to like everything,

是的。

Yeah.

不过我认为，将一些创造力引导到对个人更有意义的事情上很重要。

But go Well, I think it's important to channel some creative energy into something that's more meaningful for the person.

有趣的是，你看到硅谷很多OG.com的创始人突然就一头扎进了当代艺术的深水区。

Now, the interesting thing, of course, you've seen Silicon Valley is a lot of the og.com founders have found themselves in the very deep end of contemporary art all of a sudden.

随着他们的发展和生活方式的演变，比如杰夫·贝索斯等人，从对艺术市场参与度相对较低变成了极其重要的参与者。

And so as they have evolved and their lifestyles have evolved, whether you know, I think Jeff Bezos and there's others went from relatively low participation in the art market to extremely significant participation in the art market.

所以这可能只是某个时间点的演变过程。

So maybe it's just an evolution in a point in time.

这绝对是一种理论观点。

So that that is definitely one theory of the case.

我认为更准确的理论观点是：纵观所有历史时期的文化，艺术确实是社会某些方面的重要组成部分，但并非所有方面。

I think a more accurate theory of the case is I do think that if you look across all culture over all time, art was an important part of certain aspects of society, but not all aspects of society.

所以我认为你之所以看到这种现象，是因为你我同时生活在两个世界中，对吧？

And so I think you're just seeing that because you and I live also between two worlds, right?

因此我们只是看到了它的放大版本。

And so we're just get the magnified version of it.

你有一个新项目。

You have a new project.

项目名叫Totei，T-O-T-E-I。

It's called Totei, T O T E I.

给我们介绍一下。

Tell us about it.

我热爱工艺和匠人精神。

So I love craft and craftsmanship.

这是让我充满热情的事物之一。

It's one of the things I'm passionate about.

简单来说，Totei是一个

And I wanted to like very simply, Totei is a

Totei，抱歉。

Totei, sorry.

Totei是一本颂扬工艺与匠人精神的杂志。

Totei is a magazine that celebrates craft and craftsmanship.

所以，这里面其实有很多问题。

So, like, there's a lot of questions there.

比如，第一，你为什么关心工艺和匠艺？

Like, a, why do you care about craft and craftsmanship?

第二，为什么你会在一个完全数字化的时代创办杂志？

B, why would you start a magazine in a complete digital age?

而我，你知道的，我有一些想要验证的理论，这些理论最终催生了Totei。

And I, you know, I have a few theories that I wanted to exploit and that led to Totei.

其一，我认为虽然并非所有人都欣赏当代艺术，但我认识的高层次人群几乎都崇尚专注与工艺。

One is I think, while not everyone appreciates contemporary art, almost everyone at a high level that I know appreciates dedication and craft.

而且我觉得目前对工艺艺术、专注艺术、投入艺术以及广泛精通某件事的探索资源实在太少了。

And I think there's just far less resources in exploring the art of craft, the art of dedication, the art of engagement and getting really good at something in a very broad way.

所以我想创建一个平台来集中展示各种工艺——这不一定，但也未必不包括某些地区的绗缝工艺。

So I wanted to create a forum to make sure a lot of craft, and that's not necessarily, but it's not necessarily not like quilt making in certain regions.

它还包括单口喜剧。

It means standup comedy.

它意味着设计。

It means design.

它意味着任何你投入巨大努力去提升、最终创造出优秀产品的领域。

It means anything where you put a huge amount of effort to get better, to create a great product at the end.

所以我一直在思考如何表达这一点。

So I was thinking about how to express that.

我有几个正在探索的想法。

And I had a few ideas which we were exploring.

我说，我们应该创办一本杂志。

And I said, you know, we should create a magazine.

你们应该同时创建数字版和实体版，来致敬工艺之美。

You should create both a digital and physical version of a celebration of craft.

这就是我们开始的方式。

And so that's what we started.

这将是一项相当严肃的事业。

And so it's gonna be a pretty serious endeavor.

数字版将于今年晚些时候推出，纸质版则从明年年初开始。

It'll launch in digital format later this year and physical format beginning of next year.

所以是2025年底。

So late twenty twenty five.

是的。

Yeah.

它会定期出版吗？

And it will appear regularly or be?

数字版会定期发布。

The digital piece will appear regularly.

纸质版可能每年发行两到三次。

The physical piece will probably be two to three times a year.

做这件事需要相当大的投入。

It's a pretty heavy lift to do it.

我的意思是，既然要做一本关于工艺和匠人精神的杂志，那它最好是一本真正出色的杂志。

I mean, of course, if you are doing a magazine on craft and craftsmanship, it better be a really good magazine.

因此我们在每期杂志上投入的精力都非常大。

And so the amount of effort we put into every issue is extremely high.

如果有人年底前在谷歌搜索TOTEI，就能找到它。

And if someone just Googles T O T E I by the end of the year, it'll be there for them.

是的。

Yeah.

你现在就可以登录tote.com，注册订阅早期版本的通讯。

And you can go to tote.com now, sign up for the early versions of the newsletter.

不过我觉得这会很有趣。

But I think it's gonna be fun.

有趣的是，当我把它推向世界时，发现它与各类人群产生了强烈共鸣——大学生、喜剧演员、艺术家，以及那些为自己的技艺感到自豪的投资者。

The interesting thing, as I put it out into the world, it's super resonant with people, all sorts of people, college students, comedians, artists, investors who take great pride in their craft.

比如，投资本身就是一门技艺。

Like, craft is investing.

我为我们践行这门技艺的方式感到无比自豪。

I take great pride in how we do that craft.

当你把聚光灯打在另一位匠人身上时，每个人都会感到被看见。

And everyone feels seen when you put a spotlight on another craftsperson.

如果我们考虑普通大众，我听到很多对美国普通民众的悲观看法，甚至包括受过教育的那部分人。

If we think about the general public, I hear a lot of pessimism about the general American public, even the educated side.

人们会读得更少吗？还是他们对某些事物的了解变少了？

Will people read less or they know less about certain things?

如果你考虑他们的艺术素养，无论是在工艺、当代绘画，还是像纽约市那样的一般艺术博物馆或其他方面，你对现状有何评价？

If you think of their artistic literacy, whether it's in craftsmanship or contemporary painting or just art museums in general, whatever else might be in New York City, What's your assessment of where we're at?

情况很糟糕吗？

Is it dire?

还是很乐观？

Is it great?

我认为你正处在一个积极的转折点，这是我对形势的判断——目前到处都弥漫着惊人的集体悲观情绪。

I think you're at a positive inflection point is my read of the situation, which is there's a shocking amount of aggregate pessimism everywhere right now.

我认为部分原因仍是新冠疫情的后续影响，部分原因是我们所处的经济环境复杂，存在贫富差距。

I think part of it is still after effects of COVID, part of it is we have a complicated economic environment where there's haves and have nots.

情况非常复杂。

There's a lot of complexity.

显然世界正处于一个动荡时期。

It's obviously a really turbulent time in the world.

我认为这些都助长了当下的悲观情绪。

And that all feeds into, I think some of the pessimism out there.

你知道的，人们阅读量在减少，人际关系也在疏远。

I think, you know, there's all that people are reading less, they're in less relationships.

这些都是现实存在的问题。

There's all of those things.

但总体而言，当我相对客观地观察时，发现尤其是作为美国人，尽管形势复杂，这里仍有大量值得乐观的理由。

But I think by and large, as I look at it somewhat dispassionately, there's huge reasons for optimism, especially as an American, where while it is complicated, there's a lot of great things happening here.

我认为我们处于积极转折点的原因是，一些建设性方案（而非单纯抱怨）已开始进入公众视野。

And the reason I think we're at a positive inflection point is I think some of the ways to make it better versus just complain have started to make its way into the ether.

说来有趣，最近我参加了一个会议，关于AI的末日论调比比皆是。

I do think, you know, it's interesting, I was at a conference recently and there was so much tumorism about AI as an example.

但我认为最主要的直接影响之一是非常乐观的。

But I think like one of the main proximate effects is highly optimistic.

知识增长，不快乐减少，等等。

Increased knowledge, decrease in not joyful, etcetera.

因此我认为我们将看到一系列从悲观转向乐观的创新，至少我是这么认为的。

And so I think we're about to see a series of innovation that drives from pessimism to optimism, or at least I have so.

最后一个问题。

Final question.

除了工艺之外，你接下来还想了解什么？

Other than craftsmanship, what is it you hope to learn about next?

可以是一个行业、一位画家、纽约市的某个区域，任何方面都可以。

Can be a sector, a painter, a part of New York City, anything.

比如某个周日早晨醒来时，你会突然想到'对，我得去了解一下这个'的东西是什么？

Like what is it you wake up some Sunday morning and say, Yeah, I gotta learn about this.

哦，这个问题问得好。

Oh, that's a great question.

我接下来要学习什么？

What will I learn about next?

我想投入更多时间。

I wanna spend a lot more time.

这可能听起来很书呆子气，但我想深入研究——虽然我已经涉猎过一些，如你所知——我们如何制定切实可行的政策，理解地方、州乃至联邦政府运作的内核，从而推动事务进展。

This is gonna be super nerdy, but digging into how well, I've done some of, as you know, but how we can make practical policy like, understanding how the guts of things get done in local and statewide government and federal government so we can push the ball forward.

回到我们之前关于罗伯特·摩斯的讨论，我认为可能存在着一种让事情运转起来的失传技艺，我想重新掌握它。

I think there's actually probably going back to our Robert Moses conversation, there's probably a lost art of making things work that I wanna reengage in.

作为一位有责任感的公民，我相信自己和其他人能让事情变得更好。

So myself as a concerned citizen, others can make things a lot better.

这或许是那种技术性强且看似枯燥，但参与其中会让人非常兴奋的事情。

And that's probably like a kind of technical kind of boring thing that you can engage in, but be very excited about.

高拉夫·卡帕迪亚，非常感谢你。

Gaurav Kapadia, thank you very much.

谢谢。

Thank you.

感谢收听《与泰勒对话》节目。

Thanks for listening to Conversations with Tyler.

您可以在苹果播客、Spotify或您喜爱的播客应用上订阅本节目。

You can subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your favorite podcast app.

如果您喜欢本播客，请考虑给我们评分并留下评论。

If you like this podcast, please consider giving us a rating and leaving a review.

这将帮助其他听众发现我们的节目。

This helps other listeners find the show.

我的推特账号是TylerCowen，节目账号是cowenconvos。

On Twitter, I'm TylerCowen, and the show is cowenconvos.

下次节目之前，请继续收听与学习。

Until next time, please keep listening and learning.