157：变得更好

你熟悉电视剧《熊家餐馆》吗？不熟悉。那你至少听说过吗？

Are you familiar with the TV show, The Bear? No. Are you aware of it at all?

没听过。我停顿是因为在想，《熊》，是不是讲一个人被熊吃掉的故事？但那不是电视剧，那是维尔纳·赫尔佐格的纪录片。

No. I paused there because I was thinking like, The Bear, is that where the guy gets eaten by a bear? But that wasn't a show. That was a Werner Herzog documentary.

这部剧讲的是芝加哥一位厨师的故事，完全不一样。

This is about a chef in Chicago. It's very different.

他被熊吃了吗？

Does he get eaten by a bear?

剧里确实出现过熊，但我觉得那是梦境片段。

There is a bear in it at one point, but I think that's a dream sequence.

哦好吧。所以不，我完全不了解《熊家餐馆》。

Oh, alright. So no, I'm I'm unfamiliar with the bear.

我觉得这完全没问题。简单来说，我在看这部剧。你需要知道的是，《熊家餐馆》讲述一位世界级厨师回到家乡开餐厅的故事。他在全球顶级餐厅工作过，现在想在家乡开一家店。嗯，这部剧真的很棒。

I think that's totally fine, but basically, I was watching this show. So sensibly, I think what you need to know is The Bear focuses on a world class chef, and he comes back to his hometown to open a restaurant. And he has cooked all over the world in all the best restaurants, and he wants to open a restaurant in his hometown. Mhmm. And it's a really good show.

迈克，你要在这个话题上展开说说吗？

Are you gonna better point on this, Mike?

对我们更多的文字听众来说，他们知道我给你的推荐记录非常糟糕。所以我不是在推荐这部剧给你，因为我不确定你会喜欢，但也许你会。

For our more text listeners, they know that I am very, very poor track record wise on my recommendations to you. So I'm not recommending this one to you because I don't feel confident that you would like it, but maybe you would.

是啊。迈克变得非常犹豫，不愿冒险用他在Mortex积累的声誉点数来赌媒体推荐了。公平地说，在上次Mortex讨论《辐射》时，你的推荐确实有些糟糕...

Yeah. Mike's gotten real, hesitant to risk the reputation points that he has been betting on media recommendations in Mortex. And I will say, in all fairness, in the previous Mortex, when we discussed Fallout, like, you just had some real bad

运气不好。那只是运气不佳。

luck. That was just bad luck.

这可以理解。但正因如此，每当迈克开始推荐任何媒体内容时，我的耳朵就会竖起来，因为我满脑子想的都是，哦，他这次会押注一个观点吗？这个观点值得押注吗？但《熊》这部剧不是。不过，我很喜欢从《熊》中学到的教训。

That's understandable. But that's why my my ears perk up the moment that Mike starts making any media recommendations because all I'm thinking is like, oh, is he gonna bet a point? Is it a point worthy? But the bear is not. Well, I I love lessons to be learned from the bear.

是这么回事吗？

Is that what's happening?

是的。顺便说一句，《离职》明年一月就要回归了。

Yeah. And by the way, severance is coming back next year, January.

没错。你确实因为《离职》得了一分。

Yeah. You did get a point for severance.

我可是把我的声誉都押在《离职》上了。

Well, I bet my reputation on severance.

哦，就是从那时候开始的吗？对。就是在那个——哦，好吧。就是从那时候开始的。

Oh, is that where it started? Yes. It was at the oh, okay. That's where it started.

就是在一次晚餐时，我赌上我的声誉，说你一定会喜欢《离职》。没错。因为那时候你已经不愿意接受我的推荐了。所以我不得不，怎么说呢，提高赌注。

Where over dinner, I bet my reputation that you would like severance. Yes. That's right. Because you you were unwilling to take my recommendations at that point. And so we I had to, like, up the stakes.

我

I

已经把你拉黑了。是的。我完全忘了这茬。没错。所以你就说，我要在《离职》上孤注一掷了。

had blacklisted you. Yes. I completely forgot. Yes. And so you were like, I'm going all or nothing on Severance.

事情就是这样开始的。好吧。

That's how it began. Okay.

所以，我真正想从这部剧里领悟的，也是最近一季给我最大的启示是：《熊》讲述的是一位技艺精湛的厨师，为了追求完美而不断自我折磨的故事。

So, really, the thing that I wanted to take away for this, and the thing I maybe took away from the most recent season, is The Bear is about a chef who is a master at his craft and is basically torturing himself for perfection

嗯。

Mhmm.

以及他为了达到完美需要付出的代价。我觉得自己可能误解了这部剧的寓意。或许观众本该感叹'天啊他不该这样'，而我却认为'不，他必须这么做'——这就是我看剧时的立场。

And what he needs to do to get to perfection. And I think I took the wrong lesson away from the show. I think, like, like, I just think maybe you're supposed to be like, oh, man. He shouldn't do that. Where I'm like, no.

我觉得他某种程度上必须这样做，这就是我看剧时的出发点。

I think he kinda has to do that is is where I'm coming from when when watching the show.

好吧。嗯。继续。

Okay. Mhmm. Go on.

因为要成为顶尖就必须如此。对吧？想要登峰造极，就必须有所牺牲。在任何领域想要出类拔萃都是这样。但退一步说，这部剧让我不断思考关于'变得更好'这件事。嗯。

Because of what it takes to be the best. Right? Like, if you want to be the best, you must sacrifice. Like, that's kind of what it is about to be the best at anything in any field. But to take it back a level from that, the show has left me thinking a lot about the idea of being better Mhmm.

同时我也总对自己的技能水平感到不满，渴望实质性地进步。我时常陷入这种矛盾：既想立刻精进，又对成长所需的时间缺乏耐心。嗯。而且我很清楚，等到真正提升到那个水平时，反而会因失去进步过程的参照而浑然不觉。这种想法源于我的工作领域——

And how I also feel like I'm in this constant state of being unsatisfied with my level of skill in the things that I do and wanting to be better, like, meaningfully better. I sometimes feel like I'm in this conflict with myself about wanting to be immediately better at what I do, but then being impatient about the time that it takes to be better at what I do. Mhmm. And then also being very aware of, by the time that I actually get to that level of better, I don't even see it anymore because you kind of you lose the perspective of your skill level increasing. And I think for me, this kind of idea comes from the things that I do.

我总希望把事情做到极致，却又沮丧地意识到自己可能力有不逮。要让作品达到理论上的最佳状态，似乎永远超出我的能力范围，毕竟我知道自己并非顶尖。比如在播客和产品设计这两个工作重点上，我能看到想达到的目标，甚至能想象更远的可能性——

I want them to be the best that they can possibly be, but also feeling frustrated at understanding that, like, I'm not sure that I can actually do that. You know, like, to make these things the very best they possibly can be is always feels like it's outside of my skill level because I know I'm not the best. Right? Like, when I think about any of the endeavors so let's say if I think about podcasting, I think about product design, the two areas of my work that I'm focusing on, I can see things that I want to be or want to do, and I can see past those things as well. Like, what areas could I imagine somehow getting to?

但心知肚明永远无法真正触及。这个念头最近一直在我脑海里盘旋。

But knowing that I'll never actually get there. This is a thing I've been rolling around in my head.

这是个沉重宏大的开场。天啊，你刚才说的内容里已经包含了无数信息。

This is a big heavy start. Boy, it's like a thousand things already in what you said.

你曾有过这种感觉吗？

Do you feel this way ever?

这是创意工作者常讨论的话题。就像你刚开始尝试创作任何东西时都会遇到的状况，即便是纯粹技能提升。涉及创造力的任务——比如产品设计、播客制作、或是厨艺精进——总有些微妙的不同。当你不断提升厨艺时，就像在烹饪风暴中成长。

This is a topic among creative people. Like, it's a thing that you're just gonna run across the moment you start trying to make anything, even just, like, pure skill at anything. There's something that's slightly different about tasks in particular that involve creativity, like product design, like podcasting, and, like, chefing, chefing up a storm as you're you're getting better and better at your chefing.

或者制作YouTube视频。

Or making YouTube videos.

嗯对。好吧，我本来想避开YouTube视频的例子，但看来还是得提一个。从我角度最先想到的可能是...虽然由于工作性质可能略有不同，但我觉得这个概念仍然值得牢记。当我正在制作视频时，常会遇到这种情况：你正处在创作过程中。

Well, yeah. Okay. So I was sort of trying to avoid YouTube videos, but I guess I'll get to one at, like what's one of the first things that from my end comes up, but might be just a bit I think it's probably a little bit different because of the nature of my work, but I still think it might be a useful idea to keep in mind. There is a thing that happens when I am, like, now working on a video. You're in the middle of things.

比如我在写脚本时，很难准确描述这种感觉。我想到最好的比喻是：当你创作时，你思考着作品可能成为的样子。但难以分辨的是，这个想法究竟像清醒时的构思，还是更像大脑做梦。我经常用梦境来思考这个现象。

Like, I'm writing the scripts, and I don't have great language for this. The best I have come up with to describe it is to talk about how you can be working on something and you are thinking about what it could be. But what is hard to know is if that thought in your head is more like when your brain dreams. I think about this with dreams a lot. There is a phenomenon that I always think of.

就像你醒来时，以为梦中有了绝妙点子。但实际上你拥有的只是'这是个好点子'的感觉。梦里并没有具体的好创意，只有那种'这想法很棒'的情绪共鸣。你会困惑：为什么我想不起细节？因为梦里根本不存在任何细节。

It's like, you wake up, and you think you had a great idea in your dream. But what you really had was the idea of a great idea. You didn't have a great idea, but you had all the emotional resonance to it being a good idea in your dream. You're like, oh, why can't I think of the details? It's like, because there weren't any details there at all.

此刻我正深有体会，因为我在为脚本制作视觉素材。这个阶段常常会让问题暴露无遗：突然发现脚本某部分只是我幻想中的完美版本。但当我们尝试配上画面时，才意识到这几段文字根本不行，完全达不到效果。原来我脑海中那个更好的未来版本只是个幻影。

That's on my mind right now because I'm in the process of doing visuals for the script. And that's a moment where it can really make it quite clear sometimes where it's like, oh, this section of the script, I was kind of dreaming the version that is the good version. But the moment we start to try to put visuals to it, it's like, oh, these couple of paragraphs are just terrible. Like, they're not really working at all. And I just had some idea in my head of what the better future version would be.

事实证明那个想法根本不真实，没有任何具体细节。这种现象在我跨媒介创作时更明显：先产出文字内容再转化为其他形式，细节处理总是至关重要却又容易被忽视。不过纯文字脚本创作时我也会遇到这种情况。

But it turns out that idea wasn't real at all. There were no concrete details to it at all. I think that's partly for me a stronger phenomenon because I'm working across media. I'm producing writing that then has to be turned into something else, and the details of that always really matter and can be kind of easy to not think about sometimes. But I do have it with scripts as well.

比如写脚本时，我脑中常有个完美版本的构想。带着这种预期工作有时会很沮丧——你总觉得自己能看见更好的版本。

Like, when I'm working on the script, there's often an idea in my head of the amazing version of this script. And it can be dispiriting at times to work with that in your mind. You feel like you feel like you can see the better version of this.

但你始终无法达到那种境界，无法感受到'我做到了那个水平'。你知道那种情绪感受，但要如何复现它呢？

But you just can't get to the point where you can feel like I got to that level. You know, like, you know the emotional feeling, but then how do you replicate that?

但有时候那确实可能只是个幻想。有些事物并不存在更好的版本——那些细节无法完善，因为它们本身就不存在。你对正在处理的事物产生了某种不同的反应，认为'这个不够好，我能想象出更好的样子'。

But sometimes that really can be a dream. Sometimes there just isn't the better version of the thing. Like, that that's not real, that you can't get the details right because those details don't exist. And you're having some kind of different response to the thing that you're working on, which is this thing isn't good. I can imagine a better version of it.

但你真的能想象出来吗？细节才是关键。看着某样东西想着'这个可以更好'是很常见的——做创作时永远都是这样。这类工作永无止境。

But can you really? Because the details are what matters. And it's very different to look at something and think like, oh, this could be better. That's always the case when you're working on stuff. Like, this kind of work never ends.

你总能精益求精地优化最后0.01%。但另一种情况是：你在将自己与'更好'的空泛概念比较，却没有任何具体标准。这可能与你或听众产生共鸣，也可能不会。但我认为有必要在心里留意这种现象——因为它是真实存在的。我对此话题的独特视角在于：有时觉得这像是幻觉，但当你越深入现实世界，这种幻觉性就越弱。对吧？

You can always refine out the last point 001% of making it better. But there is a different thing that can sometimes happen, which is you are comparing yourself to just the idea of it being better without any of the specifics. And so I just like again, that may or may not resonate at all with you or who are listening, but I think it's a good idea to have in the back of your mind as a thing to pay attention to as as, like, something that can happen. So that that's one place in which, like, I come at this topic a little bit differently is I sometimes feel like this is a bit of an illusion, but the ability for it to be an illusion becomes less and less true the more you are working in the physical world. Right?

因此在产品设计、烹饪这类实际技能中，当你专注于具体训练时——比如我正在练习投球——我是棒球投手对吧？

And so with product design, with cooking, with, like, actual skills, the more you get down to something like, I'm here practicing my pitching. Right? And it's like, okay. I'm I'm a baseball pitcher. Right?

这就是我的训练内容。这时你谈论的是纯粹技能，目标非常明确：球速要更快，曲线要更刁钻，末段要有下坠——这些都是具体的物理指标。

That's what I'm doing. There, it's like you're talking about a pure skill, and it's very clear, like your visualization of, like, what is it that you're supposed to be doing? The ball is supposed to be going faster and curvier. It's supposed to drop down at the end, like these very physical things. Right?

球落入捕手手套，打者出局。这就是...

It goes into the catcher's mitts, and then they're out. That's like, you

你知道理想效果该是怎样。资深棒球迷都懂。

know what's supposed to happen. Big baseball fans.

没错。这些都是极端案例——明确的物理技能，创造性较少，只有达成标准，成功指标非常清晰。

Yeah. So these are the extremes. Right? Clear physical skill that has less creativity. It is just a thing to achieve, and you have, like, a very clear success metric of what that looks like.

这时你只会遇到物理极限或训练时间的限制。而中间地带的事物——迈克，我觉得产品设计可能是最难的——你正好处在中间：既要改善实际物理实体，又要保持创造性的想象空间，不能过早锁定细节，要让大脑能自由组合各种可能性。

And then you can just brush up against physical limitations or limitations in practice time or refining skill. Like, that's that can be the boundary. And then the stuff in the middle is, I mean, like, some ways, Mike, I feel like product design might be one of the harder things because you are right in the middle of that. There's just actual physical reality that you're dealing with trying to make things better. But there is an element of the creativity and the, like, dreaming possibilities of what could it be where it is important to not nail down those details because you want your brain to be able to run around and, like, put different things together in a creative way.

所以我认为你绝非独自拥有这种感受。是的，这很令人沮丧。当然，我记得这是艾拉·格拉斯说的，具体措辞不重要，但他提出了一个极好的观点。这也是我喜欢与你共事的原因——你能完成许多事情，是因为你具备出色的品味和视觉感知力。

So I do not think that you are even remotely alone in this feeling of like Yeah. It's frustrating. And, of course, there is I think it's from Ira Glass, but it's like it's the quote which the detail of it don't matter, but I think he made the excellent point. And this is why I like working with you that the reason you're able to do a bunch of the things that you do is you have good taste. You have a skill at visual sensibility.

就像我，明显缺乏这种能力。而你在这一点上表现得尤为突出。你对播客品质的评判标准也非常精准，这与视觉感知是相通的。艾拉·格拉斯提出的核心观点值得铭记：你对事物的鉴赏力永远会超越你的创作能力。

Like, I'm just like, I am lacking this skill. It's like it's clearly turned up much more in you. You also have, like, very strong and, I think, correct senses about what makes podcasts good. It's the same thing there. And Ira Glass, like, sort of made the fundamental point that is good to keep in mind that your skill at taste and perceiving will always be better than your skill at producing.

正是鉴赏力引领着创作力。比如我去你工作室时，看到满地的笔记本——你能敏锐分辨细节：‘这个本子手感好’，‘那个本子更实用’，这种洞察力正是你创作的源泉。

It's like the one that leads to the other. Yeah. Like when I go visit your studio and there's a thousand notebooks everywhere, like your ability to discern little details between these of like, oh, this is what makes this one feel good. This is why this one works better. That is what leads you to making things.

但必须承认，你的感知能力永远会优于实践能力。这是必然的，否则你的创作就无从进步。如果没有那种精炼的品味——‘这个关键，那个次要，这里需要这样调整’——你连改进的方向都找不到。

But it just kind of has to be true that you will always be better at the perceiving than the doing. It just has to be that way because otherwise your doing couldn't possibly improve. Right? Like, you wouldn't have something to aim for if you couldn't have that, like, refined sense of taste of, like, ah, this is what matters, and this isn't what matters. This needs to be tweaked this way.

那里需要那样调整。

This needs to be tweaked that way.

我刚找到一句引文：‘让你入行的审美品味依然犀利，而正是这份品味让你对自己的作品失望。’

So I just found a quote. Your taste, the thing that got you into the game, is still killer, and your taste is why your work disappoints you.

这是他从普遍现象中提炼的。我多次听人引用这个观点，因为他确实切中了要害：你的品味高于实践能力，但前者恰恰推动着后者。这是必然的规律。

It's it's pulled out from a discussion where he's just talking about this phenomenon in general. I've heard this reference a bunch of times because I just feel like he really cut to the core of what is the problem in this way. Your taste is better than your ability to do, but one is really causing the other. It just has to be this way.

很有意思。

That's interesting.

想想厨师——他们的烹饪水平绝不可能超越他们的味觉。如果味觉比厨艺差，他们怎么可能精进烹饪技术？这个例子让这个道理变得显而易见。

Think about a chef. A chef literally couldn't be better at cooking than they are better at tasting. Yeah. How on earth could they possibly refine their ability to cook if they're worse at tasting than they are at cooking? Like, it's so obvious in that case that this like, it has to go this way.

很有趣。可能很多人也这样，但我觉得自己正处于这种状态：我想精进的领域，周围总有人比我更强。我和这些高手共事，渴望拥有他们的技能。而我真正擅长的东西，在同辈中却不太受重视——但这正是我在此的原因。

It's interesting. Like, I feel like for me maybe this is true for a lot of people, but I think I'm in this situation where the things that I want to be good at, there are lots of people around me that I know are better. I work with these people. They have the skills that I aspire to have, And I think some of the things that I am maybe best at are not as valued in my peer group, but it's part of why I'm here.

你有相关的例子吗？比如，你当时具体在想些什么？

Do you have examples of that? Yeah. Like, are you what are you thinking about there?

我认为自己在商业方面很有天赋。嗯。我的直觉相当准确，解决问题的能力也很强，这些在商业领域都很适用，这也是我能进入现在这个圈子的原因之一。此外，我对内容策划也有不错的理解，这个技能让我很欣慰，不过我觉得很多同事也具备这种能力。但说到产品设计，我身边的汤姆和丹这些人就远比我厉害。

I think I'm good at business. Mhmm. I think I have a pretty good gut instincts and good problem solving that apply well to business, which is one of the reasons why I'm in the circle that I'm in. And I also think I have a a good understanding of content planning, which that is a skill that, you know, I am happy I have, but I think a lot of my colleagues have that one too. But when I think about, like, product design, there are people around me like Tom and Dan who are leagues ahead of me.

我很高兴能和他们共事，但看着他们的成果时，我总觉得那些对他们轻而易举的事，对我来说却很难。还有和我合作其他节目的同事，他们总能更快更轻松地提出比我更好的观点。而我希望能像他们那样高效产出优质观点，但我觉得自己的最佳观点出现频率更低，两次好观点之间的间隔时间更长。

And I'm happy to be around them, but again, I look at what they're doing, and I'm like, you just that's so easy to you. It's so hard to me. And then, you know, like, some of the people that I work with, like, on my other shows, they're able to generate better takes than mine faster and more easily, you know. And, like, I would like to be able to generate as good takes where I feel like my best takes are further between. Like, there is further time between my good takes.

刚刚这段就是绝佳例子。你对播客的思考远比我深入，毕竟你的经验是我的十倍。像「构建播客技能组合」这种概念，我根本不会想到要把「观点输出能力」列为其中一项核心技能。

Just right there is a great example. Like, you have thought much more about podcasting than I have. Obviously, because you've done it 10 times more. And I, like, I never would have pulled out, like, oh, we're trying to put together a portfolio of podcast skills. Takeitude is obviously a skill that belongs in this portfolio.

这种想法完全不会出现在我脑海里。但你会注意到这点，是因为你长期关注着更多不同类型的播客节目。确实如此。

And, like, like, it just it would not have never crossed my mind. But it, like, it crosses your mind because you're, like, you're paying much closer attention across a greater number of podcasts. Yeah. Yeah.

这种能力在事件评论类播客中尤为重要。无论是科技新闻、政治新闻还是体育赛事。对吧？拥有优质观点输出能力在这些领域非常关键。

And it definitely applies more to podcasts that are about events. Mhmm. Whether it's technology news, politics news, or sports, whatever. Right? But your ability to have good takes will help you in that scenario.

嗯。所以你的观点输出水平很重要。观点输出力。观点输出力。没错。

Mhmm. And so your takeatuity level is important. Takeatuitiveness. Takeatuitiveness. Yes.

谢谢夸奖。这确实是项宝贵的能力。虽然我觉得自己偶尔能提出好观点，但频率低到有时需要别人提醒——比如收到听众来信夸我某个观点很棒时，我才意识到「啊，原来这次说得不错」。

Thank you. It's good to have. And I feel like I have good takes, but they are rarer to the point where sometimes I feel like I notice it or I another thing I know is is that people write in to tell me my take is good in a way that I feel Oh, no. Oh, right. Right.

比如有人说「麦克，你刚才的观点真精彩」。我很感谢这种反馈，但是...

Oh, Mike, you had a really good take. And it's like, I appreciate that comment. I do. But

确实。

Right.

我们不是每周都能看到杰森这样表现，但他确实有很多独到见解。是的，你懂吧？对，没错。

We're not seeing this for Jason every week, but he's having lots of good takes. So yeah. You know? Yeah. Yeah.

但这就像把双刃剑。明白吗？当我被这些我尊敬仰望的人包围时——当然也包括你——你那种无中生有的创作能力几乎是无人能及的。正因如此，你才能成为这个领域最成功的人之一。

But this is like a good and bad thing. Right? Where, like, by being surrounded by these people who I respect and look up to, and this also includes you, of course. Your ability to create content from nothing is a skill that is almost unparalleled. Hence, why you are one of the most successful in your field.

但看着共事的人们，渴望接近他们的水平会推动我前进，可有时也会让人沮丧。懂我意思吗？因为显然所有人都在进步。这种矛盾感时常出现——追求更好的渴望既可能促使你做出决定，也可能让你想放弃。就像永远在推石头上山的感觉，明白吗？

But looking at the people that I work with and wanting to be able to get closer to their skill level pulls me forward, but it is also sometimes where you're like, goddamn it. You know? Like, because you obviously, everybody else is getting better. And it's a conflict that I feel sometimes where sometimes this need to be better can also make me wanna give up on something, you know, at the same time. Because it's the kind of double edged sword of it, which is at times this desire can actually push you to make the decisions, but it can also make you wanna back away from something and not try as hard because it feels like pushing that boulder up the hill forever, you know?

是啊。我觉得这里有很多需要分开思考的事情。嗯。它们似乎都纠缠在一起了，对吧？

Yeah. Again, I feel like there's just like a there's like a lot of separate things to think about here. Mhmm. Like, get kind of muddled up. Right?

正因为如此，一旦开始讨论这个话题，就会发现它关联着无数事物。我认为'我想在X方面进步'这个命题本身就因其广泛关联性而令人窒息。所以试着拎出几点：有件事你其实知道，但值得重申——你总是更容易看到别人的进步而非自己的。

Because, again, that's why it's like, oh, the the moment you start talking about this, it's like, oh, is connected to a thousand things. This is connected to everything. I think that, like, even that nature of of the topic, like, I want to get better at x, is very overwhelming because of that connectedness. So just, like, just to try to pull a few things out. One of the things which you already know, but it is helpful to remind you, is that other people's improvement is always more obvious to you than your own improvement.

当然。这似乎是人类认知偏差。无论达到什么新高度，大脑都会立刻将其视为基准线。在创意领域尤其明显，所以保留客观进步记录很重要——任何你想提升的领域都该如此。

Sure. And this just feels like some kind of human bias. Whatever new level you reach somehow instantly becomes the baseline of the skill. Like, that's just that's how it feels in your brain. Again, this is harder in a creative field, but it's why it's good to have objective records of progress in any area where you're trying to get better at a thing.

就像我今年注重健康管理，单看某天根本感觉不到进步。但客观记录显示确实改善很多。只是创意工作更难量化，尤其在播客领域——你很难具体感知自己的成长。

It's like, oh, I've I've been, like, working on my health a bunch this year. And it's it's a similar thing of like, oh, no particular day does it feel like I'm making a ton of progress. But it's like, oh, I have objective records that's like, actually have made a lot of progress. It's just that with creative stuff, that's significantly harder. And especially in a podcast medium, like, that's also very hard to try to, like, think about how you have improved.

进步是存在的。偶尔回听旧作品，会发现明显变化。但问题在于——我深有体会——我们都明白该这么做，却极度抗拒回顾黑历史。我基本从不看已发布的视频。

It's like, it is still there, and it may be good to occasionally go back and just, like, listen to your old stuff and just, like, see how much has changed. Yeah. I think there's also this problem. Right? Like, I feel it.

我知道你也这样。理论上该复盘，但实在不想面对黑历史。除非必须引用某个视频内容，才会翻旧账。这时候常会震惊地发现：虽然老视频质量不错，但用我现在在意的审美标准衡量，确实差了很多。

I know you feel this too. It's like, I know I should do that, but I really don't want to look at my old stuff. Like, I try so basically, like, never really watch a video after it's gone up for publication. It's like, I just never want to see it again. But every once in a while, I do have to go back and look at some old video.

每次不得不查看旧视频时，总会惊讶于这些年来的进步。比如需要引用某段内容时，才发现：哇，这些老视频虽然整体不错，但在我多年来努力提升的审美维度上，确实相形见绌。

And, like, I find it quite startling sometimes, like, how much things have improved when I look at the old things. Because it's like, oh, there's something I need to reference in this video. Like, how exactly did I say that thing? And I kinda like, wow. Those old videos, like, they hold up real well, but they're just objectively worse on a lot of these, like, taste metrics that I do care about and I have wanted to improve over the years.

所以，我觉得回顾你早期的播客作品时，你会有那种感觉。

So, yeah, like, I think you would feel that way with looking at your old work in podcasting.

哦，对。对。对。我觉得特别好笑也立刻注意到的一点就是空白间隙。比如人们说话时，某人说完后突然没人接话。

Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. One of the things that's very funny to me and one of the things that I immediately notice is gaps. So, like, in people speaking, like, so somebody says something and then nobody says anything.

这种情况就像...明明有两种解决方法，但你一个都没用上。

It's like that is just, like, such a thing of, like, this is solved two ways, and you didn't do either of them.

没错。而且两种都没被采用。是的。

Right. Right. And and neither of them were taken. Yes.

是的。这就是我看早期作品时立刻发现的问题。我得说明下——我并不是为此感到难过或失望，也没有生气之类的。真的没有情绪低落。

Yes. And that is one of the things that I immediately notice in, like, much older work. I should I feel like I do need to say because I'm like, I'm not really feeling bad about this. This isn't like I'm disappointed or, I'm upset or or whatever. Like, I'm not really feeling down.

更像是通过回顾这个节目，真正思考如何进步，而不是觉得自己不够好，明白我的意思吗？

This is more just like a thing where I've noticed, just in reflection of watching this show, of actually thinking about how can I be better as opposed to I don't think I'm good enough, if that makes sense?

嗯。接下来要说的就是这个。记住，你的进步其实比想象中大，只是很难察觉。虽然过程中有很多挫折。

Yeah. That sort of was the next part of this. It's like, just keep in mind that, like, you, you know, you make more progress than you think you do. It's very hard to see. There's lots of frustrations here.

所以我才说这和所有事情都相关。比如想想播客技能组合——如何提升播客水平？你可以拆解任何技能或流程，会发现里面包含许多子环节。

But this is why I saying it's connected to everything. Thinking about, for example, like, the portfolio of podcasting skills. Right? Like, how do you get better at podcasting? Well, you can look at any skill or any process and break it down and, like, be like, there's a bunch of subprocesses here.

关键在于找出哪些领域能最快获得边际收益？这才是该重点考虑的。有时意味着放弃某个领域，承认它本质上难以提升——但这没关系，因为技能是组合存在的。知道自己的短板也是好事。

And the trick is trying to figure out which areas in a sense, like, can you make the most marginal gain on the fastest? Like, that's really what you should be trying to think about. And sometimes that means abandoning one area and just accepting it as fundamentally unimprovable. But that's fine because skills exist in a portfolio. And it's a good thing to know sometimes, like, this is my weakness.

或许我能改进它，但相比技能组合中其他可投入精力的地方，这么做并不值得。

I may be able to improve it, but it is just not worth actually doing that relative to where else I could put in the effort in this portfolio of skills.

嗯。

Mhmm.

所以我觉得如果你仔细观察那些在某个领域真正熟练的人，我们都知道这个现象——他们往往在自己擅长的领域也存在非常明显的缺陷。

And so I think if you kinda, like, pay attention to really skilled people at what they're doing, we all know that this is the case, that they're like, skilled people also have, like, really deep flaws often at the thing that they're skilled at.

嗯。

Mhmm.

有时候这些缺陷在他们擅长的领域里显而易见。但这并不重要，因为真正关键的是这个技能组合中所有价值的乘积。懂吗？比如你在多项技能上只得10分，但有一项能得300分，另一项只有2分。只要这个平衡得当，其实没人在意，因为在这个技能组合里，把某一项能力发挥到极致才是价值所在。

And really obvious flaws sometimes at the thing that they're skilled at. But it's not important because what matters is the multiplication of all of the values in this portfolio. Right? Like, know, you're scoring like 10 on a bunch of skills, but you score 300 on one and two on another. Depending on how that balance goes, like, nobody really cares because, like, the maxing out on one ability in this portfolio of skills is where the value is.

你要坦然接受这种代价——'我在这方面确实不行，但我就是不打算花时间改进'。我认为这就是需要掌握的微妙技巧。在公开的创意领域尤其困难，因为人们会不断提醒你那些不足之处。而由于你具备良好的品味和洞察力，你会想：'是啊，我自己也看得出来。'

And you're just accepting the cost of like, oh, but I'm I'm bad at this, but I'm just not gonna spend any time on this. I think, like, that is the delicate trick. And it's particularly difficult in creative fields that are public because, boy, will people constantly remind you the thing that you're bad at. And because you have good taste and good perception, you're like, yep. I sure can see that too.

嗯。这个问题每天都明晃晃地摆在我面前，我懂。但有时候你必须做出抉择：这个方面值得改进吗？还是不值得？这是否能让你在追求的目标上获得最佳的边际效益？

Mhmm. It's right there staring me in the face every day. I get it. But you, like, you just have to make a call sometimes about, like, is this worth improving, or is this not worth improving? Is this an area where you're going to be making the next best marginal gain in whatever it is that you're trying to do?

有趣的是你会发现，真正的高手往往会专注于某项技能的某个细分领域。'我要全面提升产品设计能力'这种目标令人望而生畏。但你可以缩小范围，比如'我要花时间专门研究这类特殊纸张'，通过这种方式来推动整体技能组合的提升。

And it's like an interesting thing where really skilled people, you'll notice that they often will spend, like, a dedicated time on some sub area of that skill. I'm gonna get better at product design is extraordinarily overwhelming. But, like, you can narrow down and be like, I'm gonna spend a little while just learning everything I can about this one kind of, like, sub kind of paper. And, like, that's where I'm gonna be, like, pushing forward the average portfolio.

嗯。

Mhmm.

这是进步的方法。但我确实认为，关键是要懂得放弃什么、接受什么，能够说'这部分确实很糟，但没关系，我接受'。对我来说最明显的例子就是写作速度慢，多年来我一直为此困扰。但后来想通了——如果强行提高写作速度，反而会损害其他让作品优秀的特质。

That's a way to get better. But I really do think that it is just it is critical to know what to let go of and what to just accept and say, like, this sucks, and it's fine. I'm just going to accept that. For me, the the most obvious thing is, like, I am a slow writer, and I spent a lot of years being really frustrated with that. But at at some point, it's like, it's fine trying to, like, improve the rapidity of the writing impinges on the other things in this portfolio that make the writing good.

在制作演示文稿方面，我的技能组合比例是不同的——速度从来不是我的强项，这没关系。但做公开创作就是这样，人们会不断提醒你做事有多慢。是啊，这就是公开从事这类工作必须面对的。

I have a different ratio of skills in the area of, like, explaining and creating presentations. Speed is not one of them, and that's fine. But again, I will be constantly and frequently reminded about how slow I am at all of the things that I do. And it's like, yeah, that's what it is to do this kind of stuff in public.

所以我想你在速度上的问题其实是，当你其他方面变得更好时，反而会让你更慢。

And then I guess your problem with the speed is, like, you get better at other things, which actually makes you slower.

说得太对了。这不仅是弱点，而是因为其他方面的进步导致这个弱点变得更明显了。嗯。

That's an excellent point. Right? Like, it's not even just that it's a weakness. It's like, it's a weakness that's sort of gotten worse because other things cause it to be slower. Mhmm.

由于动画质量的提升，我们现在能讨论以前无法触及的内容，但这让一切变得更慢。那篇关于指标的论文视频就是绝佳例子——撰写过程旷日持久。但这个项目能勉强完成，完全是因为我们在动画制作、视觉效果和流程优化上投入了大量工作。动画技术的进步反而解锁了更困难的写作任务，耗时也更长。

Because of increases in animation quality, we can talk about things that we never would before, but that slows everything down. That metric paper video is a perfect example. Like, it took forever to write. But the only reason that that project remotely happened is because of, like, a lot of work on how to animate these things and how to make them look good and how can we have this whole process lined up. And so getting better at animation unlocked harder writing tasks, which take even longer.

就是这样。当你进步时，可能让最弱项变得更弱。但只要核心优势显著提升就没事——整体上你仍在进步。最终成果的平均水平仍高于从前，即便某些环节反而退步了？

And it's like, yep. As you get better, it can make your worst parts worse. But if you are getting significantly better at the good parts, you're fine. Like, you're you're still ahead. You are, like, on average better when you're looking at the final product than you were earlier, even even if, like, you're worse at some individual part of it?

我还没想透这个观点，甚至开头都很勉强。今天在节目里讨论这事（而不仅是私下聊），是因为我觉得对听众中的创意工作者或有志于此的人有价值——让他们知道职业创作者也常自我怀疑。但我觉得这很正常，正是这种感受推动着像我、像你这样的人不断精进，同时也学会接纳不擅长的领域并寻求帮助。

I don't have an end to this, like I barely had a start. My point for having this conversation today really, like for bringing it to the show and not just like talking to you about it, was I thought that there could be a value in people that are listening that are creatives and aspiring creatives hearing that people who are professional creatives still feel like they're not good enough sometimes. But I think that that's okay, because I think it is what pushes some people like me, like you, to try and be better, and also to, like, accept the things that you're maybe not as good at and get help with them.

处理弱点最好的方式是外包给擅长的人。但我总强调：雇佣越多，越可能丧失魔力。很多YouTube频道让我深有感触——原本很喜欢的频道扩充团队后，虽然大体相同，但就是有种难以名状的褪色感。这就是试图弥补所有短板的潜在风险。

The best way to handle weaknesses is if you can outsource them and have somebody else do the thing that you're bad at. But the thing that I always bring up is, like, the more you hire, the more you risk losing the magic, which is just a thing I feel very sensitive to with lots of YouTube channels. There's, like, tons of them where it's like, oh, I love them, and they bring on more people. And it's like, it's mostly the same, but it's just kinda gotten a little worse in ways that are hard to define. And it's like that is one of the risks of of, like, trying to compensate for all of this stuff.

我也没结论，但想回到你最初说的完美主义话题——这总让我特别恼火。虽然没看过节目，但当你提到节目传达'不该追求完美'而你持相反观点时，我无比支持你。这种论调真的令人烦躁。

But I don't have an ending either, but I do wanna just go back to the, like, the very first thing you said, it always really irritates me, this thing about, like, perfection. I wanted to cheer you on. Like, obviously, I haven't seen the show, but when you say, like, the show has this message of, oh, he shouldn't aim to be so perfect, and you feel like you're drawing the opposite message. I could not encourage you more in that. I find this real annoying.

有某种关于完美主义的文化观念让我极其沮丧。常见的情况是：技艺精湛者总被指责'太完美主义'。但环顾四周...这话可能有点刺耳（听众请理解）——

There's something about I cannot pin this down, but there is some cultural idea around perfectionism that I find incredibly frustrating. It is a thing that I see, like, people who are really skilled get accused of all the time. Like, oh, you're being a perfectionist. But when I look around, I don't know. This may be harsh to say, but keep in mind listeners.

这还是个未成形的想法。我观察到真正擅长某事的人根本不是完美主义者，他们明显不是。他们只是在持续精进——就像我们讨论的这个主题。

Like, this is an unarticulated thought. I just I can't put words to it. But the people who I observe are good at things are not perfectionists. They are so obviously not perfectionists. What they're doing is they're trying to get better, like this exact topic.

他们提升某项技能时，必须关注细节。在外行看来这些细节偏执得可笑，但它们确实关键。反观那些总说'我是完美主义者所以难以开始'的人，总体上反而很少是真正高产的高手。

They're trying to get better at some skill, and to get better at the skill requires focusing on details that to people who don't know anything about how something is made seem like crazy obsessive details. But they really do matter. I don't know. The people I see who more often actually talk about, like, oh, I have I have, like, such a hard time getting started because I'm a perfectionist. Those people on average disproportionately don't strike me as very skilled people who get anything done.

我不确定。这里的文化观念似乎有些本末倒置。虽然我没看过那档节目，但我很清楚媒体把它塑造成一种观念——仿佛完美主义是高手们需要学会放松的东西。然而现实中我完全没观察到这种现象。真正技艺精湛的人根本不会追求完美主义。

I don't know. It's like the cultural idea is somehow backwards here. And I haven't seen the show, but I am very aware of it as a thing in media that it's like presented as though perfectionism is this thing that skilled people should learn how to chill out about. And I just don't observe this in reality at all. Skilled people are not perfectionists.

恰恰相反，他们对自己作品中的缺陷非常理解且极度包容。反倒是那些几乎不做实事的人，似乎对完美主义异常执着。这些想法可能不太成熟。但没错，这就是我总体的困惑。我觉得你那种直觉——'这节目想传达某种理念，但我感受到的却是另一回事'——是正确的。

If anything, they're like very understanding of the flaws in their thing and extremely accepting of them. And meanwhile, it's people who don't do very much at all who seem like incredibly concerned with perfectionism. So ill formed thoughts there. But, yes, that's that's my general frustration. I feel like your your gut instinct of, this show is trying to tell me one thing, but I feel something else is correct.

因为他确实是位出色的主厨，我认为这让他能够保持专注不分心。

Because he's a really good chef, and I think he gets to not be distracted.

这直接触及了很多本质问题。比如，人生确实需要取舍。你想在某件事上做到极致？那我有个坏消息——这意味着你必须在生活中其他许多方面大幅降低标准。

Like, it goes right to the core of a bunch of things. Like like, yeah, there's trade offs in life. Do you want to be really good at a thing? I have bad news for you. That means you're going to have to be significantly worse at a lot of other things in your life.

事情就是如此。

It's just the way it goes.

本期《Cortex》节目由FitBud赞助播出。如果你想提升健康水平却不知从何开始，FitBud能为你量身定制既简单又实惠的健身方案。'量身定制'正是FitBud的核心功能，他们深知每个人的健身之路都是独特的。

This episode of Cortex is brought to you by FitBud. If you're looking to change your fitness level, it can be hard to know where to get started. That's why I wanna let you know that FitBud is both an easy and affordable way to build a fitness plan just for you. The just for you part is exactly what FitBud is tuned to. They know that everybody has their own fitness path.

他们运用数据确保每个细节都为你精准调整。FitBod会随着你的进步动态适配，让每次训练都保持挑战性，推动你实现目标。当训练计划根据个人条件和可用资源定制时，效果最佳。所有数据都储存在FitBod健身档案中，它追踪肌肉恢复状态帮你避免过度训练，同时运用运动科学为你打造最优训练方案。

So they use data to make sure they customize everything to suit you perfectly. FitBald will adapt as you improve, making sure every workout remains challenging to push you towards the progress you're looking to make. The best results are achieved when a workout program is tailored to you and what you have access to. Everything is stored within your FitBod gym profile. It tracks your muscle recovery so you can avoid burnout and keep up your momentum, and it builds your best possible workout by the use of exercise science.

FitBud分析了数十亿个经专业教练校准的数据点，通过app内1000多个多角度拍摄的示范视频，确保你能正确掌握新动作。肌肉只有在全身肌群协调工作时才能有效提升，过度或不足都会影响效果。因此FitBud会追踪肌肉疲劳与恢复状态，根据你的训练经验、所处环境和可用器材，设计均衡的训练计划。你永远不会感到枯燥，因为FitBud会通过新动作、组合训练和循环训练等方式持续更新你的课程。

FitBud have analyzed billions of data points that are fine tuned by certified personal trainers, and you can be sure that you'll be learning new movements the right way thanks to FitBud's more than 1,000 demonstration videos all within their app that are shot from multiple angles so it's really easy to pick up a new exercise. Your muscles improve when they work in concert with your entire muscular system. Overworking muscles or underworking them can negatively impact your results. So FitBud tracks your muscle fatigue and recovery to design a well balanced workout routine as well as keeping track of the experience that you have, the environment that you're in, and what equipment you may have access to. You're also never gonna get bored because FitBud mixes up your workouts with new exercises, rep schemes, supersets, and circuits.

FitBud应用操作极其简便。通过进度追踪图表、周报和分享卡片，你不仅能掌握自己的训练成就和个人最佳记录，还能与亲友分享。它支持Apple Watch（我最爱的功能之一，无需看手机就能预览下一组动作），也兼容Wearware智能手表及Strava、Fitbit和Apple Health等应用。这种品质的私教通常价格不菲，但FitBud仅需12.99美元/月或79.99美元/年。现在注册fitbar.me/cortex可享会员费25%优惠。

The FitBud app is incredibly easy to use. You can stay informed with their progress tracking charts, weekly reports, and sharing cards, which will let you keep on track of your achievements and personal bests, but also share them with your friends and family too. It integrates with your Apple Watch, which is one of my favorite features because I can see what exercises I've got next and advance them without even needing to look at my phone, but also Wearware smartwatches and apps like Strava, Fitbit, and Apple Health. Personalized training of this quality can be expensive, but FitBud is just $12.99 a month or $79.99 a year. You can get started today with 25% off your membership by signing up at fitbar.me/cortex.

立即访问fitb0d.me/cortex获取专属健身计划，拼写是fitbod.me/cortex可享会员费25%折扣。感谢FitBud对本节目及Relay FM的支持。七月到了，我们现在正处在七月份。

So go now and get your customized fitness plan at fitb0d.me/cortex. That is fitbod.me/cortex for 25% off your membership. Thanks to FitBud for their support of this show and Relay FM. July is here. We're we're in July.

七月是个大月份。

Big month July.

是啊，确实如此。录制时我们距离在伦敦举行的Relay FM十周年现场演出还有大约两周时间。这真是个非常非常庞大的项目。

Yeah. It's turned into one. So as of recording, we're about two weeks away from the Relay FM tenth anniversary live show that we're having in London. And it's been a very, very large undertaking.

你那边还撑得住吗？

How are you holding up over there?

还行。我是这么想的——此刻和你说话时，我既兴奋又紧张/压力山大，懂吗？

Fine. Here's my thing. Right. As I speak to you right now, I am equally excited and, like, nervous slash stressed about it. You know?

大概几周前有段时间，我完全兴奋不起来，纯粹是压力爆棚。但随着日期临近，兴奋感开始回升。可能是因为待办事项——或者说我能掌控的事项——正在减少吧。

Like, there was a time, I think, maybe a couple of weeks ago, where I wasn't so excited about it and was much much more just stressed. But as we're getting closer, the excitement level is increasing. Think because the amount of things left to do or the amount of things I can do is just decreasing. Right? As we get closer and closer.

确实。毕竟上千名观众要来，能做的也有限。

Right. Right. Yeah. There's only so much you can do when a thousand guests are coming

没错。最近一周我特别注意到——你刚说上千人？我们租的是哈克尼帝国大剧院，能容纳1200人。票已售出超千张，7月27日在伦敦还有少量余票，详情可见relay.fm/london。我算是明白了：像我们这种人就不该租这种规模的场地。

to Yeah. Exactly. And one of the things that I have really noticed in the last week or so so we're you you said a thousand. We're in a big theater. It's called the Hackney Empire.

这根本不是...（系统不支撑这种操作）通常租哈克尼帝国的都是专业巡演经理在操盘。

We've sold over a thousand tickets, and the theater holds up to 1,200 people. We do have some last minute tickets available if people wanna come see us in London on the July 27 at relay.fm/london. You can go find out more. The thing that I have come to realize is I think people like us shouldn't try and hire a venue of this size. It's like it's not

什么意思？

What do you mean?

就是说整个运作体系不是为我们这种团队设计的。租这个剧院的通常都有专业演出经理负责安排。

Just just in the sense that the the system is not built in that way. Like, people that hire the Hackney Empire, usually, their tour manager or some professional is arranging the show.

对。是的。是的。

Right. Yeah. Yeah.

幸运的是，哈克尼帝国剧院的人非常理解我对举办这种规模演出的无知。嗯。对吧？因为他们向我要东西，而我甚至不知道那些是什么。

Where luckily for us, the people at the Hackney Empire have been very understanding Mhmm. Of how little I know about putting on a show of this scale. Mhmm. Right? Because they're asking me for things, and I don't even know what they are.

嗯。更别提提供了。而且，我们虽然顺利过来了，但他们总是说，哦，你能发一下那个东西吗？我就想，我不知道那是什么。我不...我不明白那是什么...是的。

Mhmm. Let alone being able to provide it. And, like, we've gotten through fine, but it's just they're just like, oh, can you send over this thing? I'm like, I don't know what I don't know what that is. I don't I don't know what that don't know what that Yeah.

你刚用了一个我不懂的缩写词。你知道，这种情况经常发生。

You've just used an acronym that I don't understand. You know, there's been a lot of that.

能发一下演出流程表吗，迈克？然后就是，好的。好的。

Can you send over the run list, Mike? And it's like, yeah. Yeah.

是的。是的。是的。演出流程表。

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Run list.

他们忙得不可开交

They can't move for

演出流程表

run lists

在这里到处都是。

around here.

打字。打字。打字。什么是演出流程表？

Typey. Typey. Typey. What is a run list?

是啊。所以这类事情最近特别多，对吧？而且这确实是个大工程。我是说，光是这么多主持人要来城里，就得协调安排各种事情，计划这计划那的，真的忙得不可开交。

Yeah. So there's just been a lot of that. Right? And and so it's been a large undertaking. I mean, let alone the fact that so many hosts are coming to town and just like working around all of that and planning stuff, and there's a lot going on.

把这些加进我的工作量里确实很吃力。最初计划时，本来说好我来帮忙，由史蒂文负责统筹——毕竟现场节目向来是他操办的。但计划刚开始我们就发现行不通。因为史蒂文人在孟菲斯。

And it's been quite taxing to add this to my workload. When we originally planned to do this, I was gonna help and Steven was gonna manage it because he's always done the live show stuff. We realized quite quickly into the planning that that wasn't going to work. Yeah. Because Steven is in Memphis

嗯。

Mhmm.

而我恰好就在举办节目的城市。

And I happen to be in the city where the show is happening.

感觉这个主意从一开始就注定要失败。

It does feel like that was just inevitably doomed as an idea.

所以

So

能远程在我这边搭建场地吗？比如——哦，

Can you set it up remotely in the place where I am? Like, oh,

这样不行。原因是我们从没在孟菲斯办过演出，对吧？以往每次都是远程操作。但很快就发现，英国这边有太多线下活动要协调。

this doesn't work. The reason is that we've never done a show in Memphis. Right? Every show we've ever done, it's always been remote. But it just kind of became a thing quite quickly where there's just conventions in The UK.

最后还是由我来处理更省事。于是我们达成协议——目前正在筹备的播客马拉松所有事项我都不参与。比如圣裘德儿童医院相关的筹款活动，我完全没插手，等到八月份才会加入。这样到时候我就能全心投入了。现在他们应该每周都在开筹款会议，但我一次都没参加过。

It's just gonna be easier for me to do. And so we ended up we made a deal where that I have not been involved in any of the podcastathon planning that is currently ongoing. So, like, all of our Saint Jude stuff, like, I'm not doing any of it, and I will join in kind of in August. So then, like, I will then, you know, then be ready to go. So, like, there are, I think, weekly calls happening about the fundraiser right now, and I've not been on any of them.

这种分工方式确实有效。至少我没崩溃——要是同时处理这两摊事我肯定撑不住。筹备这种大型活动真是让人大开眼界。不过现在我感觉一切都在正轨上，懂我意思吗？

And so, like, that's kind of been the trade, which has worked. It worked in a sense of I'm not losing my mind because I feel like I would have been if I was trying to juggle both of these. It's been eye opening for sure, like, the the trying to put something like this together. But I'm feeling, right now, I'm feeling good about it. You know?

就是说，我对这次活动倾注了很多情感上的重量和期望。

Like, there's been a lot of emotional weight and, like, expectation that I'm putting on this event

嗯哼。

Mhmm.

而逐渐接受这个活动的本质后，我感觉好多了。大概有段时间我总觉得，这场秀的戏剧性不够，对吧？好像我们做得还不够。但当我与人讨论时，不断被提醒：观众根本不是冲着这个来的。

And kind of coming to terms with what the event actually is has made me feel better. Like, basically, there was a point where I was like, there's not enough theatrics for the show. Right? Like, we're not doing enough. And and as I was talking this through with people, I was being reminded a lot of like, this is not why people are coming to the show.

大家来参加这场秀是为了和我们一起庆祝

People are coming to this show to celebrate with us

嗯哼。

Mhmm.

庆祝我们的媒体事业今天达成了难以置信的十周年里程碑。

That we have reached the frankly incredible milestone of a media business today lasting for ten years.

噢，没错，对吧？

Oh, yeah. Right?

是啊，这确实了不起。所以你看，来参加的人是想和我们共庆，这让我重新调整了重心——理想情况下，这场活动需要：a.尽可能简单，b.尽量符合观众对演出者的期待。

Yeah. Which is quite a thing. And so, like, you know, the people that are coming to the show, they're coming to celebrate with us and then kind of that helped me really rebalance it of, like, ideally, this needs to be a, as simple as possible, and b, as close to what people expect from the people that they're coming to see.

对啊，你又不是在筹备时代巡回演唱会，迈克。

Yeah. You're not putting on the eras tour here, Mike.

正是。没错，后来发现那本就不是我的追求。或许更多。

Exactly. Yeah. Turns out it's not what I'm going for anymore. Maybe more.

迈克之前一直在做关于大时代的宏大梦想。

Mike was dreaming big eras dreams previously.

我不确定。我只是不确定是否需要更多像激光秀之类的东西。你懂我意思吗？

I don't know. I just wasn't sure if there needed to be more like laser light shows or whatever. You know what I mean?

是啊，更多服装变换。而且这又直接关联到之前的话题——在诸多方面构想这个理想的版本确实很容易。

Yeah. More costume changes. And again, like, I get it. And this also just goes right to the previous thing. Like, it's it's very easy to dream, like, the ideal version of this in very many ways.

对，没错。

Yeah. Yeah.

在我们考虑做这个节目之前，我脑海里就有个版本。嗯。那是个截然不同的构想。后来我意识到它根本行不通。

There was a version of this show that existed in my mind before we ever even thought about doing it. Right? Mhmm. And it was a very, very different affair. And what I have come to realize is it wouldn't have worked.

即便我真能实现那些想象，也解释不了我们为何突然要做这个。

Even if I could have managed to do any of the things that I'd imagined, it just wouldn't have made any sense for why on earth we all of a sudden were doing this.

嗯，确实。

Mhmm. Mhmm.

而我们现在能做的是让约20位主持人参与活动，重点是让大家共享这个时刻——而不是搞个人独秀。懂吧？所以虽然筹备很辛苦，但现在我无比兴奋，因为这正是我最初想做这件事的原因：在家乡办这样的演出太不可思议了。特意提这个是因为下期节目就是演出前的最后一期了。

And that what we're able to do instead is, you know, there's gonna be something like 20 hosts that are gonna be a part of the event, and it's about actually just making it that everyone gets to share in that moment together Mhmm. Rather than, like, giving someone a solo. You know what I mean? So, yeah, it's been a lot of effort, and I'm I'm so excited about it now for the same reason that I wanted to do it in the first place where being able to put on a show like this in my hometown is just, like, it's incredible. I just wanted to mention it because this is the last show before it happens.

天啊，当然，当然。

Oh, god. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Of course.

我最期待、每天反复幻想无数次的，就是走上那个舞台。很早我就向史蒂文提出请求——以往所有现场演出都是他先出场主持，介绍演员登场。但这次对我意义特殊，我真的很想第一个出场。

The thing that I'm looking forward to the most and the thing that I can't wait for and the thing that I think about multiple times a day, every single day, is walking onto that stage. It was something that I asked Steven for very early on. Like, every live show we've ever done, Steven always comes out first. And he will, like, kind of emcee the show in that way and, like, bring everybody out. And I really, really wanted to come out first for this show because of what this one means to me.

我想，这对我而言意味着比其他人更多一些特别的意义——能够在我成长的地方完成这样的成就，并且有全家人到场见证。是的，我每天都在倒计时，期待着走上那个舞台的时刻，光是想想就让我兴奋不已。我完全无法预知那一刻的感受，也不知道自己会作何反应。

It means, I think, something a little extra to me than it's gonna mean for really anybody else, and that it is to have gotten to a point where I could do something like this in the place that I grew up and to have all of my family there. Yeah. Yeah. I'm counting down the days to be able to get to the point where I walk out onto that stage, and I'm just so excited about it. And I have no idea how how it's gonna feel, and I have no idea how I'm gonna react.

我能预想出自己可能有的四种不同反应，但完全不确定会是其中哪一种，或是几种反应的混合，更不知道会如何混合。所以这真的很令人期待。

I can foresee four different reactions from me, and I have no idea if I'm gonna have any of them or a combination of them or what that combination might be. Like, so it's exciting.

唯一能确定的是现场绝对会沸腾——现在听到我声音的所有人，当迈克登上舞台时，他们一定会疯狂欢呼

All we know for sure is it is going to be loud because everybody hearing my voice now when Mike goes out on stage, they are going to go wild in

这正是我想要的。最后我想说的是，这场演出让我如此兴奋的另一个原因是：我的家人虽然知道我的职业，对吧？但只是概念上的了解。

that I want. That's what I want. The last thing I'll say on this, which is the other reason that this show is very exciting for me, is my family know what I do for a living. Right? Like, a conceptual level.

嗯。他们知道我经营着播客生意，有人会收听这些节目。但当他们亲眼看到现场时，我想会是完全不同的体验。

Mhmm. They understand that I have a business where I make podcasts and people listen to those podcasts. I think it's gonna be something very different when they see that.

噢，确实。没错。

Oh, yeah. Yeah.

当我走上舞台，人们为我欢呼时——就像我第一次做现场演出时的震撼感受。我特别期待让我妈妈...嗯...亲眼见证这一刻。光是想到这个就让我激动不已。

When I walk onto a stage and people make noise for me, for as much as these things are, you know, like, the first time I ever did a live show and that happened and it was like, wow. I think I I look forward to my mom especially Mhmm. Seeing that. I'm excited about that.

虽然不知道具体换算比例，但就像你拥有一个庞大却分散的听众群体...是的，遍布世界各地。嗯。你可以告诉人们那些抽象的数据，比如每周有多少人收听迈克的节目。

I don't know what the conversion ratio is, but it's something like you have an audience that is very large but is very dispersed Yeah. Literally all over the world. Mhmm. And it's like, yes, you can tell people these numbers that it's always abstract. Like, ah, here like, here's how many people hear Mike's voice every week.

数字确实惊人。但现场观众的震撼效果换算比例可能高达1:10000甚至1:100000——真人聚集带来的冲击力远胜于全球分散的庞大数字。所以这会产生真实的效果，非常震撼，我想对某些人来说情感冲击也会相当强烈。

It's a big number. But there's, like, an impressiveness conversion ratio, which has gotta be something like 10,000 to one, a 100,000 to one of just, like, getting people in person is just so much more viscerally impressive than big numbers of people dispersed all around the world. So, yeah, it's a real effect. It's it's like just very impressive, and I imagine also quite emotionally impactful for some.

最后要补充的是，我们决定那周不录制任何节目——现在想来真是庆幸这个决定。

One last thing that we decided to do that I'm now very thankful, I'm not recording any shows that week.

哦，天哪。真是松了一口气。

Oh, my god. What a relief.

是啊。等等。这个决定就像是，你知道吗？我和史蒂夫一月份就在讨论这个。哦。

Yes. Wait. It was a decision that was like, oh, you know what? Like, had talking about me and Steve were talking about this in January. Oh.

就像是在想，也许我们该把那周休假。但随着时间临近，我开始想，天啊。这是个好决定吗？哦，伙计。这决定真的明智吗？

It's like, maybe we should just take that week off. And as the closer I get, I am like, oh, man. Was that a good decision? Oh, boy. Was that a good decision?

是啊。是啊。我打赌是的。

Yeah. Yeah. I bet it was.

说不定哪天我就得在剧院里搬椅子了。

There is a possibility that I'm gonna be at one one day unloading chairs into a theater.

这得看你有没有拿到跑场清单。对吧？关键就在这儿——

It's gonna depend on if you got the run list. Right? That's what it's gonna

关键所在。你知道这很可能意味着什么吗？

depend on. You know what it probably does?

要不要搬椅子出去。

Running chairs out or not.

知道吗？也许跑场清单就是干这个的。它关系到——

You know what? Maybe that's what the run list is for. It's it's about

把椅子搬出去。

running out the chairs.

哦。呃-哦。是她放的那个吗

Oh. Uh-oh. Did she put that

在上面？我是说，

on there? I mean,

那是上周的事了。等等。我忘了运行清单。我们要不要做些《Ask Cortex》环节？

it was last week. Stand. I forgot the run list. Should we do some Ask Cortex?

咱们来做些《Ask Cortex》吧。

Let's do some Ask Cortex.

泰勒问：除了手机之外，哪种科技产品对你的工作效率负面影响最大？

Taylor asks, what is a piece of technology that has the most negative impact on your productivity besides your phone?

对。手机是显而易见的答案。对吧？没错。

Yeah. Phone's the obvious answer there. Right? Yeah.

我喜欢泰勒直接预见了答案然后说，不行，你别想这么轻易过关。

I like that Taylor just immediately foresaw the answer and was like, nope. You can't get out of it that easy.

我觉得这是个提交《Ask Cortex》问题的通用好建议——就像，最明显的答案是什么？然后试着排除它，对吧？这样会让事情更有趣。我记得之前读过一位职业建议专栏作家写的工作心得，他感叹说人们写信求助时简直难以置信——你知道，就像老式报纸上那样——信的前半段是问题，后半段却明摆着写着他们该怎么做。

I think that's a general good advice for submitting Ask Cortex questions is it's like, what what's the most obvious thing? And try to be like, except for this, right? Which, like, makes stuff more interesting. I remember reading a while ago that it was a professional advice columnist who was writing about their work and commented how it was just absolutely unbelievable that what people would like write in and be like, hey, I want your advice on this, like, you know, in old timey newspapers. And then, like, so the first half of the letter would be their question, and then the second half would be like very obviously what they're supposed to do.

就像，好吧，那我就把问题摘出来，把后半段改写下。虽然这让建议专栏的工作变得很容易，但产不出最有趣的答案。所以我喜欢这种预先排除最明显选项的方式，比如「除了手机」。我前几天看到这个问题时——

It's just like, oh, okay. Well, I'll just take the question, and then I'll reword the second part. And it's like, I'm sure that made the the work as an advice columnist very easy, but does not produce the most interesting answers. So I do like this, like, foreclose off the most obvious first thing, like, besides the phone. And I saw this a couple days ago.

它一直在我脑海里。我觉得这很有趣，因为排除了手机确实让问题变难了。我有个奇怪的答案，某种程度上和手机属于同类——我要说最近对我的工作效率负面影响最大的科技产品是ChatGPT。我在上期节目里随口提过，最初我用ChatGPT当作同义词词典，比如写作时需要换不同词汇。但越来越明显的是，使用它对写作过程产生了不良影响。

It's it's kind of on my mind. Like, I think it's interesting because, yeah, eliminating the phone, it does make it tricky. I think I have a weird answer which kind of falls into the same category of the phone, which is I am going to say that the piece of tech that has most negatively impacted my productivity recently is ChatGPT. And I mentioned this just, like, in passing on the previous show, but I started out by using ChatGPT as a thesaurus for, like, oh, I need I need, like, different kinds of words was the main thing I was using it while writing. And it had just been growing on my mind that something about using this was just increasingly not good for the writing process.

我至今仍难以确切形容那种感觉，但最近我给自己定了一条规则：写作时绝不向ChatGPT寻求替代措辞建议或其他帮助。就像只能使用电脑上离线的苹果词典那样，这样反而更好。之后如果愿意，可以再去做些更花哨的提问，但那必须切换成完全不同的工作模式。

I still have a hard time putting my finger on what it is, but I have recently established a rule for myself of like, while I am writing, I cannot ask ChatGPT for, like, alternate wording suggestions or anything else. It's like, can just use the Apple dictionary that's on my computer offline. This is much better. And it's like, later I can do some of the, like, fancier question asking stuff if I want to, but it it has to be, like, a very different productivity mode.

你觉得这会让你分心吗？具体感受到什么影响？为什么同义词词典就可以接受呢？

Do you find it, like, derails you? Like, what is the impact that you're feeling that, like, for some reason, the thesaurus is okay?

这真的很难用语言表达。我觉得最贴切的描述是：最初只是查同义词，但逐渐演变成'这个句子很别扭，有没有更好的表达方式？'于是我开始提出这类问题。

So, again, this is like it's hard to put into words. I think the best way I can describe it is so, like, it starts with thesaurus stuff, but it, like, it slowly started expanding into being like, this sentence is awkward. Like, is there a different way to word that? Right? So I started asking some questions like that.

但关键在于，从根本上说，我认为ChatGPT其实并不擅长这个。所以上期节目里我说过，它的很多输出就像没有营养的食物。问题不在于'我用ChatGPT太多'，而在于'我能用它当同义词词典本是好事'。

But here's the thing. Like, fundamentally, I just don't think ChatGPT is good at this really. That's why last episode, I I made the remark of, like, a lot of the output is, like, nutritionless food in a way. Like, the problem wasn't, oh, I'm using ChatGPT too much. The problem was more like, oh, I can use ChatGPT as a thesaurus, which is good.

可后来总会得寸进尺地想：要不问问这个问题？结果发现ChatGPT的回答糟糕透顶，于是又琢磨能不能换个问法来获得更理想的答案。

But then I would always go, like, one further and be like, can I ask, like, this question? And then it would be like, oh, the it's like, this this ChatGPT answer is just terrible. Is there a different way I can ask to try to get more of what I want?

然后我就想，

And I was like,

算是吧，也不完全是。但关键在于：我在干什么？我完全打断了原本的创作状态。为什么要查同义词？其实每次查词的根本原因（虽然很难说清）是——我要找的那个词会直接影响接下来几段的韵律。

sort of, but not really. But it's like, what am I doing? I just broke my flow where I was, like, looking for a thing. And it's like, why did I go to the thesaurus? The reason I went to the thesaurus, which is always still hard to say, the reason I tried to find an alternative word is because the word that I am looking for is going to directly impact the sound of the next few paragraphs.

以前没意识到的是，当我在写作时觉得'这个词不合适'，其实不是要孤立地替换某个词，而是这个词将成为后续内容的伏笔。

Like, what I didn't realize is when I'm writing and I'm like, this word is no good. I need a different one. Why is that? It's not because it's a one off word that I want to change. It's because I'm like setting something up with that word that is going to reoccur.

所以现在必须当场确定：如果用这个表述，会产生这样的语感，后续句子节奏会如何发展等等。而打开ChatGPT不像查词典，更像是问别人'我本来想这样，但那样如何？'很难忍住不继续追问。

So I do need to know the answer now. Like, if I'm gonna say it this way, it sounds like this, and then the sentence rhythms are this and whatever. But opening up chat g p t was kind of like instead of opening up a thesaurus, it's a little bit like asking a person. Hey, I wanted to do this, but what about this? It's like very hard not to just have some follow-up questions.

但这些追问会立刻让你偏离正轨。你真正需要做的是快速决策：这里有五个选项，明显这个最好，选它就对了。但ChatGPT却纵容你的挑剔，不是吗？

But those follow-up questions are just immediately derailing from no, no. What you need to do is you need to make a quick executive decision, like, here's five options. Which of these is the best? This one is obviously the best, and go with it. But ChatGPT allows you to be picky, right?

这感觉就像，我其实并不喜欢这些词中的任何一个。你还有多少备选？能再列举些吗？能不能从英语这五十万词汇量的底层里，再挖掘出任何与这个词相关、我可能更喜欢的词？这完全偏离主题了。

Where it's like, I don't really like any of those words. How many more do you have? Do you have any more? Could you just, like, scrape the bottom of this half million word vocabulary of English to find any word related to this word that I might like better? It's derailing.

大概就是这么回事。我突然想到——这让我意识到，这种感受让我想起以前手机里装着推特的时候。仅仅因为它存在，我大脑的某个角落总会想：现在有什么趣事可以发推？对吧？此刻有什么值得发推的趣事？

That's sort of what it is. And what popped into my head that I realized like, oh, the feeling that it reminded me of, it reminded me of when I used to have Twitter on my phone. And just by it being there, some small part of my brain was always like, what's a funny thing you could tweet? Right? What's a funny thing you could tweet now?

比如能不能给这个东西拍张照？有点意思。可以发到推特上。而卸载之后，这部分大脑活动就关闭了。ChatGPT在身边时给我的感觉就有点像这样。

Is it could you take a picture of this thing? That's kind of funny. You could put that on Twitter. And, like, getting rid of that just, like, shut down that part of my brain. And that's kind of what, like, having ChattyPT around was a bit like.

只要我稍一犹豫，大脑某处就会说：你可以问ChatGPT。根据我的经验，确实可以——然后我就会浪费五分钟，更重要的是打断心流，获得些平庸的改进。要是当时继续专注思考，效果绝对好上千倍。所以现在我把这条设为铁律：中午之前不用AI。

Like, some part of my brain at any moment's hesitation was like, you can ask ChatGPT about this. And in my experience, like, yeah, I could. And then I'm just gonna, like, waste five minutes and more importantly break flow getting like a mediocre improvement when if I had just sat there and continued forward, it would have obviously been a thousand times better. So, yeah, that's why I like I set that as a rule now of like basically, it's like, is it before noon? No AI.

你有词典和同义词词典可用。就像身处1600年，完全没问题。事实上这样最好。所以我的答案就是ChatGPT。

You have a dictionary and a thesaurus. Like, it's the year 1600, and it's perfectly fine. In fact, this is the best. So, yeah, ChatGPT is my answer.

我的答案算是符合问题主旨，但不完全匹配。我会说是八台游戏主机。

My answer is it's kind of in the spirit of the question, but not exactly. So, like, I would say, eight games consoles.

确实。我当时的反应大概是：好吧。这有点像在问「生活中什么最影响工作效率？」然后回答：「呃，大概所有非工作时间都在影响工作效率吧。」

I mean, yeah. I I guess I was like, sure. I almost feel like that's that's a bit saying. It's like, what in your life most negatively impacts productivity? You're like, oh, well, all of my nonworking life is what most negatively impacts my productivity, I guess.

如果真要找出最具影响力的因素，那就是所有我不在高效工作的时间段。所以

If that if that's what we're trying to figure out, what's the most impactful all of the times I'm not being productive. So

对。但在我拥有的科技产品里，游戏机确实最容易让我超时使用。

Yeah. But I I think it's of the technology that I have, it is the thing where I'm most likely to spend time longer than I intended.

没错。这是两回事。

Right. That yeah. That's different.

所以，比如，哦，我打算花十五分钟玩会儿马里奥赛车什么的，结果一小时就过去了。嗯。但对我来说，过去几年我发现这样做其实对我有好处，因为不然的话，我可能就干坐着，还能做什么呢？就坐在那儿刷一小时邮箱？这有什么意义呢？

So, like, oh, I'm gonna take fifteen minutes and play some Mario Kart or whatever, and then an hour goes by. Mhmm. But for me, I have found in the last few years that it's actually good for me to do that because otherwise, I would just sit like, what else is I gonna be doing? Just sit and refresh in my email inbox for an hour? Like, what what was the point?

你懂吧？而且我发现对我来说，这些事是有益的，尽管它们最可能让我不知不觉就花掉很多时间。

You know? And and I find for me that that this stuff is good, even though it is the thing where I'm most likely to spend time unintentionally.

是啊。

Yeah.

但说到不知不觉消耗的时间，某种程度上，游戏对我来说反而是更好的选择。

But when it comes to unintentionally spent time, gaming is preferable for me, in a way.

没错。总比你描述的那种无所事事的状态强。那种模糊的感觉——哦，我坐在电脑前，其实啥也没干成，还为此感到愧疚，完全就是个负面循环。

Yeah. It's better than that kind of, like, nothing, like like you're describing. That is sort of vague. Like, oh, I'm sitting in front of the computer. I'm not really getting anything done, but I feel bad about that, which is just like a negative loop.

对。还不如真正休息一下。不过你能在游戏休息后——即使超时了——还能回去继续工作，我觉得挺神奇的。我就完全做不到。对我来说，只要开始玩游戏，这天就结束了，所以我得提前把所有事都搞定才行。

Yeah. It's better to just, like, take a real break. I do find it kind of miraculous that you can actually take a gaming break, and even if it lasts longer than you expect, then go back and do something after. I was just like, I'm I'm completely incapable of doing that. It's like, I'm gonna pick up a game, the day is over, so I better have finished everything.

比如，我根本不可能只玩十五分钟马里奥赛车。要么玩四小时，要么一分钟都不玩，只有这两种可能。

Like, there's no universe in where I'm playing fifteen minutes of Mario Kart. It's like, I'm playing four hours of Mario Kart, or I'm playing no hours of Mario Kart. Those are the only options.

是啊。但这正是我们工作生活的差异之一，我的日程安排更满。事项都在日历上标着。所以到某个时间点我必须停下，否则就赶不上下一场会议了。

Yeah. But that's one of the differences between mine and your work life, where I have more things on the schedule. They're on the calendar. So, like, at some point, I have to stop, because otherwise, I'm not going to the next meeting.

没错。而我可能就直接放鸽子了，比如'抱歉，这个...'

Yeah. Whereas, it's like, just I have blown off meetings where it's like, sorry. This

这绝对不行。可能这是性格差异和日程安排双重因素造成的吧。

can't happen. Maybe there's a combination of difference in personality and calendar.

我想说的是，迈克，在游戏方面你比我更有钢铁般的意志。

I guess I'm trying to say, Mike, you have a a more iron will when it comes to gaming than I do.

汉娜问，根据Grace Spreadsheets的数据，那支200万浏览量的Instagram短视频是否带动了Sidekick记事本的销量激增？我觉得这里需要些背景说明。

Hannah says, has the 2,000,000 view Instagram reel translated into a spike in sales of the Sidekick notepad according to Grace Spreadsheets? There is some context required here, I think.

那么具体是什么背景情况？

So What's the context?

是这样。去年我和多位内容创作者合作制作Instagram的媒体素材，包括照片视频之类的。我们尝试了各种风格，后来联系到澳大利亚一家叫Yuzu的公司，他们为我们制作了几支短视频——准确说是用Sidekick记事本拍了一系列短视频。我特别喜欢，但因为要等你那个视频，我们当时没法发布。

Yeah. Well, last year, I was working with a variety of of content creators on producing media for Instagram, photos and videos and stuff like that. And we're trying out a bunch of different styles, and I got in contact with a company based in Australia called Yuzu, and they made a reel for us. They made a selection of reels for us actually using the Sidekick notepad. And I really loved them, but we couldn't use them because we were waiting on your video.

对吧？所以我们主要在囤货，没折腾其他事，就是想确保你制作的视频发布时库存充足。

Right? So we were beefing up stock and not really messing around with anything because we wanted to make sure that we had stock in place and that for the video that you were producing.

嗯。

Mhmm.

所以这些素材就搁置了。直到几个月前，我觉得现在运营稳定了，库存也恢复了，可以陆续发布这些内容，或许还能在Instagram上推一推。

So I kinda sat on them. And then a few months ago, I was like, okay. We're into a kind of, like, things are are stable now. Like, we've got our stock back in again. I would like to post these stuff now and then, you know, maybe boost them on Instagram, stuff like that.

结果这支短视频发布后，成了我参与过的内容里首个真正病毒式传播的作品。

Right? And so we posted this reel and it's, I think, the first piece of content that I've ever been a part of that went viral in this way.

感觉这话有不少限定条件...不过确实，好吧。

I feel like there's lot of asterisks around that. But yeah. Okay. Yeah.

对，单条媒体内容能达到这个浏览量，确实是我经手过的最高纪录了。

Yeah. I mean, this is the highest view count of anything I have been related to for a single piece of media.

我对这件事的犹豫在于，感觉它有点像Shorts。我不太清楚该如何衡量Instagram Reels的观看量。不过，确实可以承认这一点，但我觉得必须用特定方式思考才能成立。

I guess my hesitation around that is I feel like it's kinda like Shorts. I don't really know how to weigh the view count on Instagram Reels. But, yeah, it's like, will grant that to you, but I do feel like you have to think about it in a certain way for that to be true.

是啊。我的意思是，把数字减半，可能就更接近实际观看量了。

Yeah. I mean, cut it in half, and then that's maybe closer to the actual amount, like, view count.

对，没错。

Yeah. Yeah.

因为你知道，人们会无意中重复观看Reels。懂吗？就是视频会自动重播。但从病毒传播的角度看——单就传播速度和它完全脱离任何可能助推的因素这一点来说——确实很惊人。后来我们确实投了钱做营销推广，但它自然传播就达到了近百万观看量。

Because, you know, people watch reels twice by accident. You know? Like, it just starts again. But it's definitely, like, from a virality perspective of just the speed and the fact that it was kind of disconnected from anything that could have otherwise really boosted it as such. Now we ended up putting money behind it as a piece of, like, boosted marketing, but it hit, like, you know, nearly a million views all on its own.

完全是被算法推起来的。这让我超级兴奋，看着数字飙升真的很有趣。从销量激增的角度看也很有意思——在《The Real》传播最猛的前两周，我们日销量大概翻了一番。

It just got sucked into the algorithm, and that was that. And this was incredibly exciting for me. Like, it was just fun to watch the numbers go up. From a sense of, like, spike of sales, it was kind of interesting, really. The sales for, like, I don't know, maybe the first couple of weeks of The Real when it was hitting its highest virality, it maybe doubled our daily sales.

嗯。

Mhmm.

但这和播客或你制作的视频带来的销量反应相比微不足道，这很合理对吧？毕竟观众看到你亲自讲解产品时，带着他们与你的信任关系，而不是像看到随机广告那样。不过它极大提升了我们的Instagram粉丝数，这...

But that is a minute fraction compared to the response of anything that we're able to generate from either the podcast or from your the video that you made, which makes sense. Right? Like, I wouldn't have expected anything really different because if somebody sees you talking about the products, it comes with, like, the relationship you have with the viewer, that they trust you, rather than here's, like, a random piece of media as an ad. It's just another ad you've seen. But the thing that that was very beneficial is it massively boosted our Instagram following, which Mhmm.

说实话，这对我来说是最理想的收获。正如我们节目里常说的，我一直想逐步提升粉丝量，而这次...

For me was like the perfect thing that I could have wished for out of something like this, honestly. Because that's as we spoke about on the show in the past, it's something that I've wanted to increase over time, and this did

确实。播客里提到Sidekick或我制作视频时，那种转化率——比如多少次收听对应一笔订单，多少视频观看带来销售——远高于Instagram。因为就像你说的，Instagram观众大多毫无背景认知。

it. Yeah. The conversion ratio between it's like, oh, we talk about the sidekick on the podcast, or I make a video about it. That conversion ratio of, like, oh, how many listens equals a sale, or how many video views equals a sale. Like, that conversion ratio is much higher than the Instagram views because, like you said, quite obviously, most people on Instagram are coming to without any context at all.

他们不了解我们。所以每百万次Instagram观看的转化率低得多。但这一直是我们的小分歧点——我对社交媒体效果的信心远不如你。有意思的是，我的物流待办清单里就包括重新整理数据，做回归分析：哪些动作真正影响销量？具体转化率如何？我们该怎么评估？

They don't know who we are. And there's no background. So the conversion is much, much lower for like per million views on Instagram into sales. But like, this is one thing where it always has been a slight point of disagreement between us because I am just like significantly less convinced by a lot of the social media stuff than you have been. It's interesting because, like, on my head of logistics to do list is, like, I've been meaning to, like, rework a bunch of the data so I can run, like, regression analysis on, like, what are we doing, and what's having an impact on sales, and what are like, what are the exact conversion ratios, and how should we think about that?

但当这种事情发生时，就像，哦，没错。我根本不需要搞什么复杂的分析，一眼就能看出这正以积极的比例转化为销售额。当然，Instagram的转化率比其他渠道差得多。但当销量翻倍并恰好在这段视频获得大量观看的期间保持翻倍时，我根本不需要费力解读数据。

But when something like this happens, it's like, oh, yeah. I I I don't need to run some fancy analysis. I can immediately see that this is converting into sales at a positive ratio. And it's like, sure, that Instagram conversion factor is much worse than other mediums. But I don't need to tease out the data when sales double and stay doubled for exactly the duration that this video is getting a ton of views.

是的。对我来说这也是个绝佳的概念验证——看吧，这就是我们想知道的：即便没有背景信息，不了解我们团队、产品背后的故事以及所有细节。听众只需知道迈克品味很棒，就会信任并尝试他设计的产品。即便没有这些前提，人们看到产品就会直接想：没错，我想试试这个。

Yep. And that also to me was like it was just a great proof of concept to see, yes, like, this is what we want to know that without context, without the background of knowing us and like, what's gone into the product and, like, all of the details and everything else. Even just the, like, listener knows Mike has great taste, so trusts to, like, try out a product that he has designed. Like, without any of that, people just see the thing and think, yes. Like, I would like to try that product.

所以这观察起来很有趣。幕后我们还争论过，我当时说根本不信Instagram这套把戏。结果突然冒出个超级病毒视频，直接带动表格销量飙升。我当时就想：哦，迈克可能真摸到门道了？谁知道呢。

So it was very interesting to see. And, like, behind the scenes, we had we had some conversations where I was like, I just don't know if I trust any of this Instagram malarkey. And then, like, along comes mega viral Instagram video with, like, obvious impact on spreadsheet sales. And I was like, oh, Mike might be onto something here. I don't know.

但关键就在这里——这件事对我有价值也是同样原因。因为Cortex品牌今年的年度主题是'回归基础'对吧？其中一项就是我们要真正搞懂这个理念。

Oh, but this is the thing, though, where, like, this was actually valuable to me for the same reason. Because our yearly theme for Cortex brand is the year of basics. Right? And one of the things in the year of basics was like, let's actually try and get a better handle over this idea. Yeah.

你看，经营Instagram账号作为销售漏斗这事，我知道企业都在做，但既不懂操作也不确定效果。既然人人都在做，我原想肯定有它的价值。可要提炼和理解这个价值极其复杂，至今仍是难题。

Because, you know, the the the idea of having an Instagram account and it being a a sales marketing funnel and da da da da da, it's a thing that I know businesses do, but I don't know how to do it. And I don't know if it actually works, but everybody does it. So surely, there must be some value to it was my thinking. Mhmm. But, like, trying to extract that and understand that is incredibly complicated and still kind of remains complicated.

但至少从这个视频和我们做的其他几项营销中，我看到了提升效果并获得可量化指标的可能性。这特别有意思——就像你说的，我知道个人影响力能促进销售转化，但问题是我们很难给这个效果具体赋值。

But at least from this video and then a couple of other pieces of marketing that we've done, I've been able to see that there is the ability to increase effectiveness and get a metric out of the end of it. Mhmm. And that has been really interesting to me. For that same thing you're saying of, like, I know that there is a higher conversion over our personalities leading to the sale, like, people being familiar with us. But the thing is, we actually can't easily put a number on that.

这确实非常困难。而且即便能赋值，持续投钱获取新用户也极具挑战性。而这正是Instagram提供的解决方案，对吧？

Mhmm. It's, like, very hard to do. And then also, even if we were able to, it's incredibly hard to just keep putting the money in and getting more people. And that is exactly what Instagram provides. Right?

我们现在就能获得具体数据。比如目前我在Instagram投放的这个视频广告，引导用户访问Sidekick记事本官网，每次点击成本是7便士。

Mhmm. Mhmm. We can get the number, and we have the number. So, like, at the moment, I'm running this video as an ad on Instagram with the call to action to go to the Sidekick Notepad website and read more about it. At the moment, this piece of media, it's 7p per click.

每投入7便士就有一个人点击了解。这是我们所有广告中表现最好的，有些广告成本是它的2到4倍。这让我明白：无论这个视频有什么魔力，人们就是喜欢，愿意去深入了解。

So for every 7p we put in, we get someone to click and go and watch it. And this is better than any other piece of media that we've done. We had some that were two times, three times, four times that amount. And so, like, it's helping me understand that, like, whatever it is about this video, people like it. It encourages them to go and learn more.

我们还有另一个案例：关于Sidekiq记事本被《Inc》杂志报道的贴文，同样保持着7便士的单次点击成本。这很有趣，因为说明两点：第一，这些内容确实能引发共鸣；第二，Instagram的机制决定了这种效果可以持续。

And we have one other, thing at the moment, like, which is, we made a post about the Inc Magazine article that was written about the Sidekiq notepad that is also performing at 7p per click to go and find out more about the product. I was like, this is interesting stuff to me because there's two things. One, alright. So the whatever it is about these pieces of media, they resonate with people. And also, just because of the way Instagram works, it's not like it has to stop.

我们就这样持续下去。嗯。然后不断得到相同的结果。我们持续投入资金，却始终获得同样的回报。

We just keep it going. Mhmm. And we keep getting the same results. We keep putting money in. We keep getting the same result.

这非常有趣。这是播客无法实现的，也是YouTube视频做不到的。我们无法持续复制相同效果，因为这两种媒介的效能早已达到上限。对吧？就像这档节目每月能触达的观众数量基本是固定的。

And that's really interesting. That is not something we can do with a podcast, and it's not something we could do with a YouTube video. We cannot keep replicating the same result because both of those pieces of media, the effectiveness is capped out at the exact maximum already. Right? Like, we can only talk to the same amount of people on this show as we can every month, essentially.

而你的视频已经以最高效率触达了最多人群。就算我们把你的YouTube视频投放广告推广，效果也不会相同——可能会接近Instagram广告的效果。这个发现让我很兴奋，终于有案例能说明为什么人们热衷这种模式：全球用户都在这个平台，你可以无限触达他们。

And for your video, it's already hit the highest amount of people with the highest amount effectiveness. We can't just if we took that video of yours on YouTube and put money behind it on, you know, it's promoting on YouTube, we wouldn't get the same result. We'd probably get a similar result to the Instagram ad. And I think that that's been really interesting to me to kind of finally have something that broke out a little bit to be able to teach me this lesson about why people do this kind of stuff because basically everybody in the world is on this platform. You can just keep reaching them.

而且由于这类平台的算法机制，同一个人会被推送四次才最终点击，成为那七便士点击量的一员。虽然我还不知道如何最大化利用，但这确实很有价值。那种视频的视觉风格也将成为我们未来的方向——我钟爱这种风格，显然我们的潜在客户也是。这很棒。

And also because of the way these kinds of things work, we'll hit the same person like four times, and then they'll finally click on it, and now they've become one of the seven pence clicks. It's been really interesting for me. I don't know what to do with it still, but it's been very beneficial. And also just the style of that video and the way it looks visually is something that we're gonna start leaning more towards because I really love the style and clearly so do the people that wanna buy our products. So that's very good.

病毒式成功往往难以解释和复制，但它能指明方向：分析成功要素，尝试迭代优化，探索可能的发展路径。

Like a viral success, they they can be inexplicable and they can be irreplicable, but they can also point you, like, this is generally the right direction to head, think about what, like, what happened here and what worked here and, like, now start trying to iterate on that and see see where you can go from there.

本期《Cortex》由Squarespace赞助——专为创业者打造的一站式建站平台，助您在网络世界脱颖而出。无论初创还是品牌扩张，您都能创建精美网站直接互动受众，销售产品、服务乃至原创内容。Squarespace提供全功能解决方案，完全由您掌控。通过全新引导式设计系统Blueprint，您可从专业布局中选择，定制符合品牌调性的跨设备适配网站。

This episode of Cortex is brought to you by Squarespace, the all in one website platform for entrepreneurs to stand out and succeed online. Whether you're just getting started or managing a growing brand, you can stand out from the crowd of a beautiful website, engage directly with your audience, and sell your products, services, even the content that you create. Squarespace has everything you need all in one place, all on your terms. You can start a completely personalized website with Squarespace's new guided design system, Squarespace Blueprint. You choose from a professionally curated layout and the styling options you want to build a unique online presence from the ground up tailored to your brand or business and optimized for every device.

网站上线后，集成SEO工具能快速提升搜索排名，让更多人发现您。Squarespace的Fluid Engine设计系统让创意落地变得前所未有的简单，通过桌面/移动端拖拽技术实现像素级定制，彻底释放您的想象力——所有新建站点都包含此功能。

Then once you launch your website, you can get discovered fast with their suite of integrated optimized SEO tools, so you're showing up more often in searches to more people growing the way that you want to. It is incredibly easy to design a website with Squarespace. Their system fluid engine makes it easier than ever before to unlock your creativity. Once you've got your website starting point set, you can customize every design detail with drag and drop technology for desktop or mobile. You can stretch your imagination online with Fluid Engine.

这正是我始终选择Squarespace的原因：我清楚想要的效果，但不懂编程。Squarespace赋予我所需的所有能力，且成品永远出色。

It's included in any new Squarespace site. And for me, this is the main reason why I've always used Squarespace for my websites. I know what I want my website to look like. I don't know how to code it. Squarespace gives me all of the power that I need and everything always looks fantastic.

平台提供优质模板供您随心调整，既保留个性又确保专业质感。无论是实体商品、数字商品，还是新增的付费墙独家内容/课程销售功能，Squarespace都配备了完整的销售工具链。

They have such great starting points and you can tweak it to your heart's content. So it feels like your own, but they give you all of the right tools you need to make sure that things look professional and great. It's so easy to sell things at Squarespace whether they're physical goods or digital goods. They have all of the integrations and tools that you're gonna need. And well, something that's newer for them is to be able to have exclusive content on your website behind a paywall or you can sell content or courses.

您甚至可以销售可下载文件（如PDF、音乐、电子书）。通过灵活的支付集成——支持信用卡、PayPal、Apple Pay，在适用地区还提供Afterpay/Clearpay分期付款——为顾客打造无缝结账体验。立即前往体验吧。

They have all of the tools you need to get that set up. You could even sell files that your customers can download like PDFs, music, or ebooks. You can integrate flexible payments to make checkout seamless for your customers with simple but powerful payment tools. You can accept credit cards, PayPal, and Apple Pay, and in eligible countries, offer customers the option to buy now and pay later with Afterpay and Clearpay. Go and check this out for yourself.

别只听我的一面之词。当你访问squarespace.com时，可以注册免费试用，在试用期间你能搭建完整的网站。而当你对成果满意、准备向世界发布时，前往squarespace.com/cortex，首次购买网站或域名即可享受九折优惠。决定注册时请认准squarespace.com/cortex，首单立省10%的同时也为本节目提供支持。

Don't just take my word for it. When you go to squarespace.com, you can sign up for a free trial, and in that trial, you can build your entire website. But then when you're ready to launch it to the world because you're so happy with what you've been able to build, go to squarespace.com/cortex, and you will save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain. That is squarespace.com/cortex when you decide to sign up. You'll get yourself 10% off your first purchase and show your support for the show.

感谢Squarespace对本节目及整个Relay FM的支持。马克提问：你如何应对失败？你常谈及确保工作成功的体系与实践，但当计划受挫时，你如何调整并重返正轨？作为科学家，我的工作本就是不断失败并从中学习。

Our thanks to Squarespace for their support of this show and all of Relay FM. Mark asks, how do you handle failure? You often talk about the systems and practices you have in place to succeed in your work. But when things don't go to plan, how do you deal with it and get back to work? I'm a scientist, so it's my job repeatedly to fail and learn from it.

但身为凡人，持续面对失败确实不易。

But I'm also a human being, so this can be a tough thing to keep doing.

这让我想起在物理实验室工作的日子——每天早晨默认心态就是'今天这些实验全都做不成'，整天忙活却一无所获。对这种感受我太熟悉了。某种程度上，我觉得自己有个取巧的答案（虽然真实）：我天生不爱回头看。

Flashbacks to my working at a physics lab days, and it was like, yep. Your your default assumption at the start of every day is like, well, none of this is going to work. It's gonna be a whole day of, like, doing stuff, and none of it works. Know that feeling very well. I mean, partly for me, I I feel like there's a cheat answer I have, which is true, which is just I'm not a very looking backward kind of guy.

这不是我的性格特质。从性情上讲，我会立刻翻篇，对失败毫不在意。虽然有时确实做过些糟糕决定...说来有趣，前几天和人聊起往事，提到某件旧事时我才恍然'哦对还有这回事'。

That is just not the way my personality is. And so I am just temperamentally inclined to move on immediately and not care at all about failures. It's like I've made some, like, real bad decisions sometimes. And it's funny. I was just talking to someone about, like, a thing came up about, like, something that happened in the past, and it was like, oh, yeah.

那真是个糟糕的决定。我当时就想，哦，好吧。我好像真的很久都没考虑过这个问题了。它压根就没出现过。所以我觉得问我这个问题不合适，因为这更像是性格使然的表现。

That was a real bad decision. I was like, oh, yeah. I just, like, haven't really thought about that at all in forever. It just, like, doesn't come up. So I think I am a bad person to ask because it's just, like, it's because of temperamental indications.

但我想提出另一个观点，关于预期失败和意外失败——尤其作为科研工作者。科学实验就是预期失败的典型例子。比如你要测试不同材料寻找特性X时，早就知道会有好几个月毫无进展。某种意义上每天都是失败，但这本就是过程的一部分。

But I do think there's a different thing that I wanna pull out, which is, like, expected failures and unexpected failures, particularly being a scientist here. That that's, like, the key example of expected failures. Like, oh, you're gonna be running an experiment where you're testing different materials, looking for property x. You know going into that, you're gonna have months of just like, oh, none of this works. Every day, in a sense, was a failure every time, but that's just, like, part of the thing.

我不知道...如果是预期中的失败，当你在工作或生活中开启某个进程时，提前就非常确信会有X%的失败率，我觉得这根本不算失败。这更像是种磨练，对吧？就像是为了目标而持续攻坚。

And I don't know. I feel like if it was an expected failure, if you started some process in your work or in your life, and you know extremely confidently ahead of time that there's going to be, like, percentage x of failures, I just feel like that's not even a failure at all. It's something more like grinding. Right? You're, like, grinding through to get where you want to.

虽然磨练过程并不有趣，但某些事就是必须经历这个阶段。所以如果失败本在预料之中，我觉得应该从心理上重新定义：这是磨练的一部分吗？或者换个角度想：这是经过计算的风险吗？你心里早有预期，清楚失败的概率。

And it's like grinding is not a lot of fun, but you just have to do it for certain kinds of things. So if a failure was well expected, I just feel like it should be mentally reframed as was this part of a grind? Or I guess the other way it can be is like, was this part of a calculated risk? And you had some notion in your head of like, oh, okay. Here's the probability of failure.

我一开始就明白这点。感觉这种失败根本无需处理。真正需要关注的是意外失败——事情以完全出乎预料的方式出错，毫无征兆。这才是截然不同的情况，会让你觉得：啊，这才是真正的失败。

And I just, like, knew that going in. I feel like, oh, it's like there's nothing to deal with there at all. But the thing that's more, like, what do you wanna pay attention to and what do I pay attention to is more like unexpected failures. Like, something has gone wrong in a way that you didn't predict at all and didn't see coming. Like, that is a very different thing that feels more like, oh, this is an actual failure.

你需要做的，就像是对此前的疏漏进行一次回顾性分析。这事怎么突然就发生了？是什么导致了它的发生？然后，就像之前讨论的关于决定改进和不改进的事项，有时候结果就是，好吧，这就是现实。意外失败，顾名思义，就是意料之外的。

And you just have to do, like, a like, a retrospective analysis of what was missed in the lead up to this. How did this come out of nowhere? What led to this occurring? And then, I mean, kind of going to the discussion earlier about deciding the things that you're improving on and not improving on, sometimes the result is like, well, that's what happens. Unexpected failures, by definition, they're unexpected.

它们可能难以预测。也许根本不值得为了将来避免这种情况而做出任何改变。我觉得这是大公司和大官僚机构众多慢性毒药和缓慢死亡方式之一——它们僵化地试图确保曾经遇到的每一个意外失败都永不再现。这就是为什么你会看到长达两万页的服务条款文件。就像在问，这到底是什么文档？

They can be unpredictable. And it it just might not be worth changing anything to try to avoid that in the future. I feel like this is one of the many slow poisons and slow deaths of, like, big companies and big bureaucracies is they ossify in trying to make it so that every unexpected failure that they have ever encountered can never happen again. This is why you get terms of service that are like 20,000 pages long. It's like, oh, what is this document?

哦，它就像是这家公司历史上所有糟糕事件的记录，还包括他们询问过的所有朋友遭遇过的坏事。对吧？于是你得到了这份试图涵盖所有可能极端情况的庞杂文件。这就是官僚机构面临的问题——流程多达百万步，因为每一步都是为了解决曾经出现的问题而添加的制度性补丁，结果一切变得越来越慢。所以我也说不清。

Oh, it's like a historical record of everything bad that ever happened to this company and also everything bad that ever happened to all of their friends that they ever asked about. Right? So you you get, like, this enormous document trying to cover, like, every possible corner case. And it's the problem that bureaucracies get of, like, there's a million steps because each one was added because sometime there was a problem, and they put in an institutional fix, and everything just gets slower and slower. So I don't know.

对于意外失败，我认为也值得考虑：或许更好的做法是接受这次失败，承认你会继续前进，而不是试图为此制定计划？但这真的因情况而异，对吧？

Like, with unexpected failures, I think it is also just worth considering. It could just be better to eat it as a failure and accept that you're gonna go forward and not try to plan for this? But I don't know. It's just it's so variable. Right?

这取决于失败的性质。但我觉得在心理上将其区分为预期与非预期是有益的。如果是非预期的，那么是否值得尝试预防未来类似事件？这就是我脑海中关于失败处理的决策树框架。

It depends on the nature of what the failure is. But I think it I think it's good to mentally separate them into expected versus unexpected. And then if it's unexpected, is it worth attempting to prevent something similar in the future, or or is it not? So that's the decision tree for failures off the top of my head. That's what you can do.

然后选定一种方式，别再纠结。这就是应对失败的方法。

And then pick one and don't worry about it. That's how you handle failure.

所以如果我负责的项目遭遇意外失败，无论如何我都会感到沮丧，特别是当我原以为它能带来更大成果，或对其怀有更高期待时。在我的职业生涯中，这种经历已经足够多了。嗯。但正是早期这些经历，让我现在筹备项目时就会考虑应对失败的方式。本质上，我处理失败的两种体系是：承诺与经验。

So if I have an unexpected failure of of a project that I'm working on, whatever, I will be bummed out about it, you know, especially if I thought that it could have led to something more, or I had a greater idea for it. And so, like, I've experienced that enough throughout my career. Mhmm. But in having had those experiences early on, it kind of got me to the point now where my preparations for a project include the ways in which the failure is dealt with. And, essentially, my kind of two systems for dealing with failure is commitment and experience.

所以

So

哦，明白了。

Oh, okay.

当我启动一个项目时，我清楚它可能不会成功，但我不会直接放弃。嗯。我会把它推进到某个终点，而不是简单地说'好吧这行不通'就扔掉。因为那样我觉得自己从项目中学不到任何东西。如果总是放弃失败的项目，我还会不断开启太多新事项。

If I'm embarking on a project, I understand that that project may not succeed, but what I won't do is just abandon it. Mhmm. I will take it to a point in which it will end, but that it won't just be like, well, that didn't work, and then just get rid of it. Because then I feel like I'm not gonna learn anything from that project. And if I just abandon everything that fails, I'm also gonna keep starting too many things.

对吧？这是我多年来领悟的一件事，所以现在我说，不再做播客了。一个都不做。彻底结束了。

Right? So this is a thing I've learned over time, which is now why I'm like, no more podcasts. None. No more. Done.

明白吗？因为我逐渐意识到，按照我喜欢的方式制作的新节目要取得成功变得越来越难。嗯。现在要想达到我过去成功项目的水平，真的非常非常困难，而且需要投入的时间远超我能给予一个项目的。所以，就像要有这种承诺——如果这个项目不行，我也会坚持把它做到有结果为止。

Right? Because I just learned over time, it just became harder and harder to be successful with new shows that are made the way that I like to make podcasts. Mhmm. And to try and get a success now to the level that the successes that I have is really, really hard and is takes more time than I have to give to a project. And so, like, having that commitment to be like, well, if this doesn't work, I will see this project through to an end state.

这是一种责任。既是对参与者的承诺，也是对那些信任者的承诺，但也不能无休止地拖着某个项目不放。对吧？同时这也积累了如何让项目成功、或者说足够成功以便适时退出的经验。这大概是我现在处理项目的两种方式，我觉得这样失败的概率会小一些。

That is a thing. That is a commitment to the people that are there or that have bought into it, but also not to a point where I'm just, you know, dragging something behind me forever. Right? And then that also leads to gaining the experience for how to make something successful and or successful enough that you can find the time at which to bail out from it. They're kind of my two ways that I deal with projects now so that they're less likely to fail, I feel like.

比如，我们现在已经做了足够多的产品推广，知道怎么让它们成功，因为之前有些产品没达到预期，就是因为我做了太多假设。嗯。现在我们更清楚该怎么做了，而且我觉得一直在进步。这也让我们明白有些产品的试水规模可以缩小。比如刚开始可以少订些货，看看市场反响，再改进或调整，然后再大规模推广。

Like, for example, we've done enough now for the promoting of products to understand how to make them successful because we've had some stuff that didn't necessarily go the way that I thought they were going to because I made too many assumptions. Mhmm. And now we have, like, a better idea of how to do stuff, and and I think it's getting better all the time. And it's also just informing that some of the bets that we make on things can be reduced. And, like, you can start off ordering less units of a product, and you can see if it resonates with people, and then use that to improve it or change it, and or to then build the way to announce it bigger to the world.

这就是经验的价值——意味着某件事可以成功，但即使成功得没那么大，也不算失败，因为你不用为同一件库存积压六年之类的。

Like, that is the kind of experience portion, which means that like, something can succeed, but succeed less and it not be a failure because it you're not carrying around the same stock of the same item for, like, six years or whatever.

是啊。其实你说到点子上了，我刚才听的时候就在想，这确实更容易用实体产品来举例，比如Cortex品牌。我们的产品卖得不错，但迟早会遇到失败的对吧？总会有一款产品就是卖不动。

Yeah. Actually, that's a good point because I was as as you were talking, I was sort of thinking, like, again, it's it's easier to talk about with physical products, like with Cortex brand. But it's like, oh, our products have done well, but at some point, we're going to have, like, a failure. Right? We're just we're gonna have something where it's like, oh, this just didn't this just didn't go very well.

只要你持续推出新品，这事就不可避免。

If you keep launching products, it's it's bound to happen.

要我说，其实已经发生过了，只是没人同意我的看法，也不让我承认。《微妙笔记本》就是个失败品。

I mean, look. I think it already did happen, but nobody else will agree with me or will allow me to agree. The subtle notebook was a failure.

我差点问——你现在还这么谦虚吗？

I was like, are you are you still humble?

我说的就是《微妙笔记本》。对，就是它。

I'm talking about the Subtle Notebook. Yes. I'm talking about the Subtle Notebook.

好吧。大家听我说，我完全不同意迈克的观点。我觉得迈克对'微妙笔记本'的看法很古怪。'微妙笔记本'明明很棒。

Okay. Listen, everybody. I just completely disagree with Mike about this. I feel like Mike's brain is all, like, weird about the Subtle Notebook. Subtle Notebook is great.

顺便说一句，你们的物流主管说我们需要尽快追加订单。

By the way, your head of logistics says we need to order more very soon.

出于多种原因，这行不通。所以我们只能以后再处理这个问题。

For a variety of reasons, it can't happen. So, like, we're just gonna have to deal with this later on.

听我说，我绝不会让'微妙笔记本'项目夭折。所以

Listen to me. I will not let Subtle Notebook die. So

不，不。但关键就在这里。这是我的...好吧。事情是这样的，嗯...

No. No. But this is this is the point, though. This is my so okay. So what happened was Mhmm.

我们做了主题系统日志本，我当时觉得接下来做个构造相同但内页空白的笔记本很简单对吧？然后就像...是的。按理说应该能取得和主题系统同样的成功。但并没有。

We made the theme system journal, and I was like, an easy next product is a notebook that is basically the same construction but blank inside. Right? And it was like, this Yep. Can only surely succeed to the exact same level that the theme system succeeded. No.

因为我们订购量远远超标，现在还在卖首批库存。我们对这个产品严重过量订购和过度投入。我不认为'微妙笔记本'这类产品的创意不好。但等到需要补货或重新订购时，我绝不会再订同样的数量。这次的失败...

It didn't because we ordered an amount that was way too high, and we're still selling from that initial stock amount. We significantly over ordered and over committed to that product. I don't think that the idea of a product like the subtle notebook is a bad one. But whenever we get to the point that we're gonna replace it or like reorder for it, I'm not gonna order that same amount again. Like the failure

好吧。确实。

Okay. Yeah.

是的。我们对这个产品押注太大，结果失败了。彻底失败了。

Yeah. We bet way too hard on that product and it did not work. Like it did not work.

我是说...好吧。当你再次提醒我们囤了够卖好几年的库存时，确实...

I mean, Okay. I guess when you remind me again that we overbought by literally many years worth of stock, yeah,

我猜那确实搞砸了。

I guess that did go bad.

我就是特别喜欢那个产品，而且觉得它挺有意思的。

I just really like that product, and I also just think it's kind of funny.

我也喜欢。而且我们有不少那个产品的粉丝，包括一些朋友——不只是你。我还有其他朋友说，千万别停产这个，因为我天天都在用。对，没错。

I like it too. And that we have fans of that product, including some friends of, like, not just you. I have other friends who are like, please never get rid of this because I use it all the time. Yeah. Yeah.

我懂。但它迟早会被其他产品替代，不过我们会像处理Sidekick记事本的不同版本那样应对。明白吗？比如我们推出的日历伴侣，订货量少很多，效果却很好，因为我们的财务投入没那么大。

It's like, I get it. It will but it's going to be replaced at some point with something else, but we will deal with that the same way that we have, like, are dealing with variants of the Sidekick notepad. Right? So we have the calendar companion. We ordered way less, and it's going great because we are less financially committed to that product.

好吧。我承认你对那个低调笔记本的判断比我更有远见。#麦克是对的

Okay. So concede, you're more right about the subtle notebook that I give you credit for. Hashtag Mike was right.

但这都是经验。我们从中有所收获。

But it's just the experience. We learned something from it.

是啊。我正想说这个——我一直在考虑未来，比如某些项目在某种意义上注定会失败。但因为日历伴侣的成功，我现在感觉好多了。我们在产品发布方式上做了很多结构性调整...

Yeah. That and that's where I was sort of going with that is what what I was thinking about, just again, like, sort of thinking forward is like, oh, right. Like, projects, like, we'll definitely have some projects that are, like, failures in some sense. But, like, I already feel so much better and partly because of the calendar companion. I'm just like, oh, the but the way that we're thinking of rolling out stuff, we've made a bunch of structural changes behind the scenes.

突然意识到：我们确实花了很多精力做风险预案，在控制潜在损失的同时，仍能抓住成功时的机遇。对，就是这样。

And it's like, oh, right. I didn't really think about this. But we have definitely put a lot of effort into downside mitigation of if it goes wrong while maintaining the ability to get the benefits of the upside if it does go right. Yeah. So, yeah, it's like yeah.

这确实是...我们在这方面进步巨大。完全是把失败经验转化为未来行动的学习过程。

That's that that is a thing that, like, we yeah. We've gotten significantly better over time with that. So, yeah. That that's, like, totally a, like, learning from failure experience and incorporating it going forward.

还关乎承诺度。记得当初为应对订单潮，我们囤了过量Sidekick记事本吗？当时就讨论过：如果视频效果不佳，我们会全力清库存。嗯。

And it's also, like, the commitment thing. Right? So when we were struggling handling all of the eels and ordered, like, just an obscene amount of Sidekick notepads to prepare for your video Mhmm. There was a conversation that we had, which is, like, okay, if this video doesn't work, like, will sell these. Like, we will do everything in our power Mhmm.