448：来自酿酒师 Retreat 的西海岸皮尔森小组讨论直播

本播客由《精酿啤酒与酿造》杂志倾情呈现，献给所有热爱酿造与品饮优质啤酒的人。

This podcast is brought to you by craft beer and brewing magazine for those that love to make and drink great beer.

如需了解更多信息或订阅，请访问 beerandbrewing.com，或在社交媒体上关注我们：craft beer brew。

To learn more or to subscribe, visit beerandbrewing.com or find us on social media at craft beer brew.

您正在收听的是《精酿啤酒与酿造》播客。

You're listening to the craft beer and brewing podcast.

我是杰米·博格纳，本周的节目源自几周前我在北卡罗来纳州纳什维尔举办的酿酒人静修会上主持的一场关于西海岸啤酒的现场圆桌讨论。

I'm Jamie Bogner, and this week's episode comes from a live panel discussion on West Coast pills that I moderated a few weeks ago at our brewers retreat Nashville, North Carolina.

你可能会问，什么是酿酒人静修会？

What's the brewers retreat, you ask?

这是我一年中最钟爱的酿酒活动。

Just my absolute favorite brewing event of the year.

请想象一下，位于密尔斯河的 Sierra Nevada 酿酒厂后院草坪上，紧邻花园和滚球场地的地方。

Picture, if you will, the back lawn of the Sierra Nevada brewery in Mills River behind the garden next to the bocce courts.

再想象一下，巨大的帐篷下设置了五套十加仑的 Ruby Street 家酿系统，五组各十二名与会者在酿酒界领袖如肯和布莱恩·格罗斯曼、文尼·氯佐、纳迪亚·李·氯佐、马特·布林德森等人带领下共同酿造啤酒；再想象清晨的研讨会、丰盛的晚餐——包括在 Burials Forestry Camp 举办的海鲜与烧烤盛宴，以及在 Sierra Nevada 举行的闭幕多道菜配餐晚宴、夜晚的瓶装啤酒分享，还有围绕我们共同热爱的酿造事业而形成的深厚情谊。

Now picture five ten gallon Ruby Street homebrew system set up under a giant tent where five groups of a dozen event attendees brew together led by leaders of the brewing world, like Ken and Brian Grossman, Vinny Chlorzzo, Nadia Lee Chlorzzo, Matt Brindleson, and more, and then picture morning seminars, awesome dinners, including a seafood and barbecue scorcher at Burials Forestry Camp, closing night multi course pairing dinner at Sierra Nevada, evening bottle shares, a deep sense of camaraderie around the shared passion that we have for brewing.

在我们和啤酒厂的社交媒体动态中，已经有不少内容讲述了部分故事。

There's plenty out there on ours and in breweries' social media feeds that tell some of the story.

但还有很多事情你必须亲临现场才能体验，比如由布莱恩和文尼主持的一场特别小组讨论与品鉴会，他们拿出了多年前一次布雷特啤酒合作项目的测试酒瓶，并分享了布莱恩私人收藏的旧版俄罗斯河啤酒。

There's quite a bit that you just had to be there for, like a special panel and tasting hosted by Brian and Vinny where they dug into test bottles from a Brett Beer collaboration from many years ago and then shared old Russian River bottles from Brian's personal seller.

但这次关于西海岸啤酒的小组讨论，邀请了高地公园的鲍勃·孔茨、绿凳的克里斯·约翰逊和绿脸颊的埃文·普赖斯，我们特别希望与大家分享。

But this panel discussion on West Coast pills featuring Bob Koontz of Highland Park, Chris Johnson of Green Bench, and Evan Price of Green Cheek is one we wanted to share with all of you.

我们稍后会进入讨论内容，但首先，多年来，G和D冷却器一直为你们喜爱的啤酒提供冷却服务，与北美及全球3000多家啤酒厂建立了合作关系。

We'll get into the discussion in a minute, but first, for years, G and D Chillers has chilled the beers you love partnering with 3,000 plus breweries across North America and beyond.

他们为过去三十年来建立的这些合作关系感到自豪，因为酿酒不会在凌晨五点停止，他们的服务也不会。

They're proud of the cool partnerships they've built over the past thirty years because brewing doesn't stop at 05:00 nor do they.

优质组件、精湛工艺和持续创新推动着他们所做的一切。

Quality components, expert craftsmanship, and constant innovation drive everything they do.

凭借24/7全天候的服务与支持，你的啤酒厂将永不停歇。

And with their twenty four seven service and support, your brewery will never stop.

通过远程监控你的冷却器，可以轻松快速地获取所有所需信息，让你安心知道运营一切顺利。

Remote monitor your chiller for simple and fast access to all the information you need and gain peace of mind your operation is running smoothly.

Berkeley Yeast 刚刚推出了其最畅销的液态酵母菌株——Dry Tropics London。

And Berkeley Yeast just launched Dry Tropics London, their best selling liquid yeast strain.

现在，Dry Tropics London 兼具干酵母的易用性，同时呈现出你期待的顶级伦敦艾尔酵母所具有的柔软蓬松口感和多汁风味，并且还进行了重大升级：释放出强烈的硫醇物质，带来层次丰富的葡萄柚和百香果香气。

Now with all the ease of use benefits of dry yeast, Dry Tropics London delivers the soft pillowy mouthfeel and juicy character you'd expect from a top tier London ale strain, but with a serious upgrade, a burst of thiols that unleash vibrant layered notes of grapefruit and passion fruit.

许多酿酒师喜欢 Tropics 带来的干净百香果风味，但他们不希望每一款 IPA 都变成热带水果炸弹。

A lot of brewers love the clean passion fruit you get from tropics, but they don't want every IPA to be a tropical fruit bomb.

在干酵母的价格区间内，你可以随意添加后丢弃而不必担心成本，或者与你的自有菌株混合使用，以调节风味的强度。

At the dry yeast price point, you can pitch and ditch without breaking the bank, or you can co pitch with your house strain to adjust the intensity of the notes.

而且全国范围内免运费，现在正是尝试 Dry Tropics 的最佳时机。

And with nationwide free shipping, there's never been a better time to try Dry Tropics.

立即访问 berkeleyyeast.com 下单，体验 Dry Tropics 在伦敦酵母中的便捷与影响力。

Order now at berkeleyyeast.com and experience the ease and impact of dry tropics in London yeast.

此外，酿酒师的一天已经足够忙碌了，何不让 Old Orchard 帮你分担研发工作呢？

Also, a day in the life of a brewer is packed enough as it is, so why not let Old Orchard assist with r and d?

他们的创新研发实验室提供定制化酵母菌株开发服务。

Custom blends development is available through their innovative R and D lab.

他们的大宗业务部门为广泛的饮料细分市场提供供应，成为啤酒及其他饮品调味的一站式解决方案。

Their bulk division to supplies a wide range of beverage segments, making it the one stop shop for flavoring beer and beyond.

更多详情或免费样品，请访问 oldorchard.com/brewer。

More information or free samples are waiting at oldorchard.com/brewer.

那就是 oldorchard.com/brewer。

That's oldorchard.com/brewer.

这个小组讨论将围绕西海岸皮尔森展开。

This first panel is gonna be conversation about West Coast Pilsner.

因为我们有鲍勃、埃文和克里斯，他们都是皮尔森和拉格啤酒酿造师，且都专注于啤酒花的交叉应用。

And since we had Bob and Evan and Chris, so all Pilsner lager brewers and that intersection of hops.

所以觉得开展这场对话会很有意义。

Figured it'd be nice to have this conversation.

我们先做个简短的介绍，可以从鲍勃开始。

Quick introduction, we can start at end with Bob.

鲍勃，你为什么开始酿造西海岸皮尔森？

Bob, why'd you start brewing West Coast pills?

你为什么发明了西海岸皮尔森，就像文尼在这里说的？

Why did you invent West Coast pills as Vinny has said here?

大概是2014年或2015年，那时候开始有了这个想法。

Probably maybe 2014 or 2015, kinda planted the seed.

这是一个非常简单的想法。

It was a very simple idea.

我们需要为一次桶装艾尔节准备一桶啤酒。

We needed a cask of beer for a Cask Ale Festival.

我的意思是，没错。

And we I mean, that right.

好的。

Okay.

我们只是想到，想把我们做的西海岸IPA和我们有的德国皮尔森结合起来，稍微轻盈一些，更清爽一点，同时保留那种酒花的冲击感。

And we just had the thought that we kinda wanted to merge West Coast IPA we had with German pills that we had to sort of like lighten it up and make it a little more crisp, have that sort of like hop impact.

对我们来说，这就是它的起源。

And that was the birth of it for us.

我们酿了那桶啤酒，当时就觉得：没错，这东西有门道。

We made that cask and we were like, yes, there's something to this.

这是一种我非常喜欢并想深入探索的风味与体验。

This is like a world of flavor and experience that I liked and wanted to explore.

那时，高地公园酿酒厂只有我和另一个人，蒂姆·麦克唐纳。

At that point in time, Highland Park Brew is just me and one other person, Tim McDonald.

于是我们开发了一款叫‘蒂姆博药片’的啤酒。

So we developed a beer called Timbo Pills.

这纯粹是我们当时的一个小创意，想把那桶啤酒中尝到的风味转化成一款真正的啤酒。

And that was kind of just our little baby moment in time to explore the birth of that flavor we got in that cask into a beer.

后来，这款‘蒂姆博’在我们手中有了自己的生命，但更多是采用拉格发酵，带有强烈的西海岸啤酒风格影响。

And then it, you know, took on a life for us with Timbo, but more sort of like lager fermentation, heavy hop West Coast sort of influence.

现在，我们处在一个许多西海岸IPA都使用拉格酵母酿造的世界，这些界限已经变得模糊不清。

And now we're in a world where lots and lots of West Coast IPA is brewed with lager yeast and all of those lines are blurred.

而且，是的，某种程度上，这或许可以追溯到你们当时所做的尝试。

And, yeah, probably tracks back some, you know, in some way to what you guys were doing there.

克里斯，你既是拉格啤酒酿造者，也是IPA酿造者，所以这个话题正好把你的两个方面结合在了一起。

Chris, you're a lager brewer and an IPA brewer and so, know, this kind of, you know, subject brings both of those sides together for you.

是的。

Yeah.

我的意思是，我们十二年前开了绿径酒厂，一开始主打的是非常突出酒花风味的啤酒。

I mean, we opened Green Bench twelve years ago now and we were you know, we started fairly hop forward.

我们最初根本没生产拉格啤酒。

We actually weren't making lagers at all to start with.

所以最终，我们销量第一的产品是一款西海岸IPA。

So ultimately, like our our number one seller is a West Coast IPA.

销量第二的是美国皮尔森啤酒。

Our number two seller is an American Pilsner.

所以，目前我们主要酿造的就是这两种风格的啤酒。

So yeah, those are kind of the the styles that we make the most now.

我们还生产很多以发酵风味为主的啤酒，而我们最初就是从酒花和发酵风味的啤酒起步的。

We also make a lot of like, you know, fermentation forward beers and that's kind of we started with was like hops and fermentation forward beers.

几年后，我一直对酿造拉格啤酒感兴趣，并希望它成为我们产品线的重要部分，但我并不知道该如何做。

And then a few years in, know, I'd I'd always been interested in making lager and and that being an important part of our portfolio, but I didn't know how to do it.

我没有接受过酿造拉格啤酒的训练。

I wasn't trained to sort of make lager.

你知道，我所接受的酿酒教育方式其实是一所真正的学校，但它是通过实践学习的。

You know, the sort of school of sort of brewing that I went to, was an actually school, it was working.

但我曾在雪茄城酒厂工作，那里并不酿造拉格啤酒。

But I worked at Cigar City and we weren't making lager there.

实际上，那时候如果你酿拉格，大家还会拿你开玩笑。

Actually, back then, like, the conversation was always you kinda got made fun of if you made lager a little bit.

就像他们会问：你为什么要这么做？

Like, it was like, why would you do that?

你可以在超市买到拉格啤酒，而我们做的是那些买不到的、更有趣、更有风味的啤酒。

Like, you can get lager at the grocery store and, you know, we we're making things that you can't get, you know, that are more interesting and and flavorful.

而且，酿造拉格还要花上三倍的时间。

And and also it's gonna take like three times the amount of time.

为什么我要把发酵罐锁上，让这些需要五、六、七、八周的啤酒慢慢发酵，而在这段时间里我本可以酿出三批IPA呢？

Like, why would I, you know, lock up the tank, you know, with with these like five, six, seven, eight week, you know, beers when I could make, you know, three IPAs in that time period.

所以一开始我主要专注于IPA，但后来也逐渐爱上了拉格啤酒的酿造。

So definitely started heavy on IPA and then have grown to become a real lover of of sort of lager brewing as well.

当然。

Sure.

埃文，跟我们讲讲你在拉格啤酒和啤酒花这一交叉领域的背景吧。

Evan, give us a little bit of your background in that intersection of lager and hops.

你好，埃文。

Hi, Evan.

我的声音现在不太对劲。

My voice isn't quite what it should be.

熬夜熬的。

Late nights.

尼尔·费舍尔和龙舌兰酒，是的。

Neil Fisher and tequila is, yeah.

确实很危险。

Dangerous for sure.

是的。

Yeah.

所以我的拉格啤酒之路始于2009年，当时我在一家啤酒厂大量酿造添加了大量橙子的小麦啤酒。

So my my path for lager really comes from in 2009, I was at this brewery making a lot of wheat beer with lots of oranges in it.

我想改变这种模式，转而以更慢、更专注的方式酿酒。

And I wanted to change this path and start working at a slower on a slower pace, but more intentional kind of brewing.

于是我去了Taps啤酒厂工作，和维克多·诺瓦克一起，他至今仍是我深爱和敬重的人。

And so I took this job at Taps with Victor Novak who is somebody I who I still love and respect.

在那里，我们酿造了一系列不同的拉格啤酒，这是我第一次真正投入其中，不再像过去那样追求高产量或快速酿造。

And we were making a range of different lager beers there that I was really jumping into for the for the first time with this new idea of instead of high production volumes that I was sort of or maybe speed that I was used to.

相反，他告诉我：不，不，我们要放慢节奏。

Instead, he's like, no no, we're gonna take our time.

我们要用德国原料酿造德国风格的啤酒，这些理念对我产生了深远影响。

We're gonna use German ingredients to make a German style beer and a range of these sort of things that were really influential on me.

2011年，我们报名参加了 Sierra Nevada 的啤酒营，我们为团队制作了含有晶体的啤酒。

We in 2011, we got signed up for the Sierra Nevada beer camp, and we did this pills with crystal in it for our group.

这对我来说是一个转折点，让我开始考虑在拉格啤酒中使用美国或西海岸风格的啤酒花。

And that was a kind of turning point of this idea for me of using American or more like kind of West Coast hops in a lager beer.

因此在2012年，我去了位于安纳海姆的 Noble Ale Works 酒厂工作，并推出了这款啤酒。

And so in 2012, I took this job at a brewery called Noble Ale Works in Anaheim and I came out with this.

有一位啤酒花代理商来教我关于莫图卡啤酒花的知识。

I had a hop rep come by and teach me about Motueka.

他当时在谈论这种啤酒花，维尼可能能在这里纠正我。

And so he was talking about how it's Vinny could probably correct me here on this.

它好像是某种锯子的女儿之类的。

The daughter of saws or something like that.

于是我想要酿造一款捷克风格的皮尔森，使用波西米亚皮尔森麦芽、煮沸时加入德国啤酒花，然后在旋涡阶段和干投时都使用莫图卡啤酒花，我们干脆就叫它‘加了莫图卡的捷克风格皮尔森’。

And so I wanted to create this Czech style pills, Bohemian Pilsner malt, German hops during the boil, but then Motueka Whirlpool, Motueka dry hop, and we just called it a Czech style pills with Motueka.

之后我就一直沿用这个思路，直到后来开设了 Green Cheek 酒厂。

And, you know, ran with that for a while and then opening up Green Cheek.

我们一直每周都做一些新啤酒。

We have always just kind of made new beers every week.

所以，这和鲍勃的路子完全不同，他一直在努力打造主打啤酒之类的产品。

And so, like, it's been a completely different path than Bob's where he's put effort into, you know, making flagships and stuff like that.

而我们呢，只是继续每周都推出新的啤酒。

And we, on the other hand, have just kind of continued to make new beers every week.

这些年来，我们做过西海岸皮尔森、酒花拉格，或者各种不同名称的版本。

And so we have made West Coast pills or hoppy lager or versions of the different name throughout the years.

我们稍后会继续带来更多内容，但首先，用Audacity为您的下一款IPA给顾客一个惊喜吧。

We'll be back with more in a second, but first, give your customers a pleasant surprise with Audacity in your next IPA.

由IndyHops赞助，这款Strata的后代自带独特风格，散发着迷人的紫丁香和薰衣草香气，以及甜美酸涩的浆果风味，还带有一丝酸爽的皮革感。

Brought to you by IndyHops, this descendant of strata brings her own flair and catchy lilac lavender aroma and flavors of sweet tart berries and with tangy leashy.

Audacity与Strata搭配时就像家庭聚会，当柑橘、西姆科、阿马里洛等其他酒花加入时，乐趣更甚。

Audacia loves family reunions with Strata and has even more fun when Citrus, Simcoe, Amarillo, and others join the party.

让Audacity尽情释放，看笑容蔓延开来。

Let audacity a loose and watch the smiles spread.

IndieHop的生命是短暂的。

IndieHop's life is short.

让我们让它充满风味。

Let's make it flavorful.

如果你正在寻找一种高效、无需冲洗的消毒剂，快来认识Five Star Chemicals的SaniClean PAA Pro吧。

And looking for a powerful no rinse sanitizer that gets the job done fast, Meet SaniClean PAA Pro from Five Star Chemicals.

这款经EPA认证的过氧乙酸基酸性消毒剂对啤酒石效果显著，适用于从酒桶到灌装线的各种设备。

This EPA registered PAA based acid sanitizer is tough on beer stone and perfect for everything from kegs to packaging lines.

提供两种便捷规格，非常适合喷雾器、发酵罐等设备使用。

Available in two convenient sizes, it's ideal for coarse sprayers, fermenters, and more.

专业信赖，专为性能设计，SaniClean PAA Pro助你安心酿造。

Trusted by pros designed for performance, Santaclean PAA Pro helps you brew with confidence.

了解更多，请访问5starchemicals.com。

Learn more at 5starchemicals.com.

酿得更好，用五星级。

Brew better, brew with five star.

此外，本集由Pac Tech赞助，他们提供您可信赖的精酿啤酒多包装解决方案。

Also, this episode is sponsored by Pac Tech delivering craft beer multi packing you can trust.

Pac Tech的把手采用100%再生塑料制成，完全可回收，帮助啤酒厂实现闭环，推动循环经济的发展。

Pac Tech's handles are made from 100% recycled plastic and are fully recyclable, helping breweries close the loop and advance the circular economy.

凭借简约的设计、可靠耐用的功能以及定制色彩匹配，Pac Tech帮助品牌在保持可持续性的同时脱颖而出。

With a minimalist design, durable functionality you can rely on, and custom color matching, Pactech helps brands stand out while staying sustainable.

在全国范围内受到精酿啤酒厂的信任，他们提供更智能、更可持续的啤酒携带方式。

Trusted by craft brewers nationwide, they offer a smarter, sustainable way to carry your beer.

如需了解更多信息，请访问paktech-opi.com。

To learn more, visit paktec-opi.com.

网址是paktech-opi.com。

That's paktech-opi.com.

让我们先来探讨一个关于西海岸皮尔森的宽泛问题。

Let's start with a kind of a big broad question about West Coast Pilsner.

对于所有深入研究啤酒的人来说，都能清楚地看出2010年代初期人们所称的IPL与后来演化的西海岸皮尔森之间的明显区别。

For all of us who are deep into beer, can see a clear difference between what people would call IPL of the early twenty teens and this later evolution of West Coast pills primarily.

我认为，我们现在所说的西海岸皮尔森，其出色的代表作品捕捉到了很多这种特质。

I think those really great expressions of what we now call West Coast pills capture a lot of that.

它们保留了足够的硫化物拉格发酵特征，仍然能让人联想到皮尔森的概念。

They capture enough of that sulfur lager fermentation character to still echo the idea of pilsner.

我认为，这其中一部分是必要的，因为要在这个范畴内传达皮尔森的特质，而IPL则更侧重麦芽风味，倾向于远离这种风格。

I think some of that is just necessary to convey pilsnerness in that scope versus IPL, which seemed to focus with a little more malt and kind of steer away from that kind of thing.

但鲍勃，当你思考啤酒花风味如何在这种拉格发酵环境中，与一些皮尔森风格的硫化物特征相互作用时——其实这甚至不是‘类似皮尔森’，而是真正的皮尔森硫化物特征——你是如何看待啤酒花与发酵风味之间的互动的呢？

But Bob, for you, as you're thinking about the way that hops flavors play in this lager fermentation zone with some of that pilsner ish, Pilsner like sulfur character, and I guess it's not even Pilsner like, it is Pilsner sulfur character, you know, how do you think about the way that those hop and fermentation flavors interact?

而且你知道，这些风味可能非常美妙，但如果平衡不当，也可能变得一团糟。

And, you know, because they can be beautiful, but they can also be a train wreck if you're if they're not balanced correctly.

你是如何把握这种张力与平衡的呢？

How do you, you know, kind of work that push and pull?

我的意思是，我认为这对这种风格来说是根本性的，或者对我们而言，这种风格本身就是一个整体，但我们更倾向于探索风味，试图捕捉啤酒的感官体验。

I mean, I think it's like fundamental for that style or you know, for us, it's like the style exists as one thing, but we're kinda more like exploring flavor and trying to get at the sensory experience of the beer.

因此，我们制作所有西海岸风格啤酒时都使用奇科或艾尔酵母，它们会产生一种更浓郁、更丰富的果香特征。

And so, you know, it's like we we're making all our West Coast beers with Chico or ale yeast, and and they have this ester expression that is more like a, like, richer fruit character.

我们刚开始的时候，比如和Timbo合作，但后来我们开始优先管理酵母，发现作为一家非常小的啤酒厂，我们希望实现酵母的多代使用。

And I just found that when we started, you know, started with Timbo, but then just to prioritize our yeast management that we were finding that we wanted, you know, we were a very small brewery and we wanted to go multi gen on our yeast.

于是我们开始悄悄地把酵母用在我们的IPA里。

And so we started, like, sneaking it into our our IPAs.

我们发现，我喜欢的这种风味特征——可能受到南加州气候的影响——是现代啤酒花（通常带有更多热带和水果风味）与硫化物或类似硫醇的热带香气之间的相互作用，而这些在艾尔发酵中我根本找不到。

And we were just finding that that the flavor profile that I like and that maybe is influenced by our climate in Southern California, whatever it may be, was this interaction of, like, modern hops, which tend to be maybe more tropical and fruit driven, and these sulfur or, like, thiol sort of, like, tropical notes as well that just I wasn't finding in the ale fermentations.

艾尔啤酒往往呈现出更浓郁的果香，但这并不是我们想要的。

Like, ales just they tended to be a richer fruit expression that wasn't what we were looking for.

所以我们一直继续探索，不断调整发酵控制的参数，以获得我们希望在这些啤酒中找到的风味表现。

So we just kinda like kept, I guess, just exploring that more and more and turning the knobs of like how we were controlling our fermentation to get the outputs of flavor that we were trying to like find in those beers.

而且，我想你最终会陷入一种惯性。

And, you know, I think you you kinda get you end up moving into like a homorism.

你不断强化你喜欢的东西，然后因为你接触得越来越多，就自然而然地继续往那个方向走。

You you feed the thing you like, but then you kinda keep going in that direction because you're you're exposed to it more and more.

所以不管怎样，现在我们在高地公园啤酒厂内部已经形成了一套自己的方法。

So whatever that may be, now we have an internal thing for us at Highland Park Brewery.

我们的酿造团队有七个人，看到我们对这种风格的偏好以及内部的发展，还挺有趣的。

We have like, you know, a team of seven people on our brew team, and it's it's funny to see, like, just our preference for that and our internal development.

而且正如我所说，我不确定这是否与气候有关。

And and it it just goes to this, like I said, I don't know if it's climate driven.

我不确定这是我们只是在强化自己对已有做法的偏见，还是其他原因，但感觉确实更偏向热带风味。

I don't know if it's us just reinforcing our own biases towards what we're already doing or whatever, but it just seems more tropical.

我从不排斥硫化物，我喜欢在拉格啤酒中感受到它，而且我觉得它能提升酒花的风味。

And I've never been opposed to sulfur like I like it in my lagers and, you know, I feel like it amplifies the hops.

在包装后的产品中，酒花的风味似乎能保持得更久。

The hops seem to hold on longer in the packaged product.

所以有很多因素在叠加，让我觉得，是的，这对我们来说是正确的方向。

And so it's just like there's multitudes of things that are kinda like stacking that I'm like, yeah, this is this is the right direction for us.

而且说实话，2017年2月，当我们开始把拉格发酵方式悄悄融入我们的西海岸IPA时，我当时想的是，管别人知不知道呢。

And, you know, it may be I I mean, honestly, in February '17 as we kept, sneaking in lager ferments into our West Coast IPAs, I I was doing it kind of like, people gonna know, whatever.

后来我一旦在酿酒师面前展示，他们都会说：这太棒了。

And then I'd like get in in front of a brewer and brewer would be like, this is awesome.

我喜欢这啤酒。

I like this beer.

这太棒了。

This is great.

他们甚至根本不会觉得这是拉格发酵的。

And they wouldn't even think that it was a lager fermentation.

所以我们一直坚持这么做，然后我们就想，不如干脆直接认领这个风格吧。

And so then we just kept doing it and then we're just like, we should just own this.

你知道，我们并不是想骗人。

Like, you know, we're not trying to trick people.

我们只是想探索风味，以及我们被吸引的这种表达方式，并让其他人也体验到。

We're just trying to explore flavor and the expression that we were, like, drawn to and having other people experience it.

我想，这就是我们现在所处的位置了。

And that's kinda where we're landing where we're at now, I guess.

我想回到这个话题，关于你如何对待这些发酵过程，比如你的目标是用拉格酵母酿造IPA，还是西海岸风格的啤酒。

I wanna come back to this, you know, subject of how you might treat those fermentations a little different, whether your goal is IPA made with a lager yeast versus West Coast pills.

我们稍后再回来说这个，但我想继续谈谈如何平衡风味和硫化物特征。

We'll come back to that, but I want to keep, know, stay on this kind of balancing hot flavor and sulfur character.

克里斯，对你来说，你的拉格啤酒中，这种发酵特征也是非常重要的部分。

Chris, for you, you know, you also and your lagers that that character, fermentation character is a big part of it.

你是如何思考这些风味之间的平衡的呢？

And how do you think about the balance of those flavors?

是的。

Yeah.

我的意思是，当我想到‘酒花拉格’这个词时，我的很多拉格啤酒确实都很酒花突出，而且很多都是非常传统的拉格。

I mean, think first when I think of like the term hoppy lager, a lot of my lagers are hoppy and a lot of them are very traditional lagers.

所以，从这个语境来看，如果你说‘酒花拉格’，我们主要指的是美国或者新时代的风格，无论是南半球还是美国风格的酒花特征。

And so like obviously in the context of those that know, if you say hoppy lager, we're mostly obviously meaning probably, know, US or, you know, new age sort of whether it be Southern Hemisphere or sort of US hops sort of profile.

因此，我发现自己更愿意称之为类似‘西海岸皮尔森’之类的名字，仅仅是为了命名上的区分，因为我觉得有必要澄清一下：在我的酒厂里，目前我就有好几种，比如明信片皮尔森、瑞士皮尔森、北美皮尔森、海湾皮尔森。

So, you know, I do I do find myself saying like, I I would rather call it something like a West Coast Pills or something like that just by just for the naming sake just to sort of draw a distinction because I do find like to put this into perspective a little bit, oftentimes at my brewery I'll have right now even I've got let's see, we've got postcard pills on, we have Swiss pills on, we have North American pills on, we have Bay pills on.

我们还有两种不同的捷克淡拉格。

We have and we have like two different Czech pale lagers as well.

在我们的啤酒厂，任何时候都有七种皮尔森啤酒在供应，而且很多都很好喝，你知道的。

There's seven basically pilsners on tap at any given moment in our at our brewery and a lot of them are very happy, you know.

所以为了向顾客传达这种啤酒的特点，如果我酿造一款西海岸皮尔森，我的思路是采用通常酿造皮尔森的工艺，但使用与传统啤酒花完全不同的风味类型。

So like to to sort of communicate to my customer of what this looks like, if I'm making something like West Coast pills, my mindset is to sort of take the same process I would do normally for a pilsner, but essentially use hops that have completely different character than say traditional ones.

所以对我来说，这甚至不在于混合传统的德国啤酒花或捷克啤酒花。

So even for me, it's not even as much about blending in say like traditional German hops or Czech hops.

而在于从头开始，用这种新时代的啤酒花风味去搭配皮尔森的基础风格，让两者相得益彰。

It's about using from the ground up sort of this new age hop profile against a pilsner profile that complements it.

在这种情况下，我追求的是酒体极其清澈透亮。

And in this sense, it's gonna be something that I'm looking for to be extremely pale.

为了在我的酒单上进一步区分，我发现我们身处佛罗里达，并不是真正意义上的美国西海岸。

And to draw another distinction on my tap list I find, we are in Florida, not literally on like the West Coast of the country.

我们是在佛罗里达的西海岸。

We're on

佛罗里达的西海岸。

the West Coast Of Florida though.

我们技术上属于墨西哥湾沿岸。

We are technically Gulf Coast.

所以是另一个意义上的西海岸。

So the other the other West Coast.

所以我认为我们的市场，我们确实对这种趋势有影响，仍然喜欢带有颜色的西海岸IPA，喜欢带有一丝甜味和一定酒体的西海岸IPA。

So I would say our market, and we're definitely a part of the influence on that, still likes West Coast IPA with color, still likes West Coast IPA with a little bit of sweetness and a little bit of body.

虽然我们会酿造现代风格的西海岸IPA，但我们发现，虽然有人感兴趣，但人们并不会多次点单。

And while we will make West Coast IPA sort of modern West Coast IPA, we find that there's not as I mean, there's interest, but there's not as much like like people aren't ordering it multiple times.

他们会觉得，不错。

They're like, cool.

我尝了这款新的西海岸IPA。

I had this new West Coast IPI had.

现在我想再喝一杯阳光之城。

Now I want Sunshine City again.

对吧？

Right?

它带有一点颜色，还有麦芽的风味，但显然仍然以热带水果香气为主。

Which has a little bit of color to it and, you know, sort of malt character, but it's still obviously very hot tropical driven.

所以我们发现，西海岸风格的啤酒，或者说，如果我们谈论的是酒花浓郁的啤酒的话。

So we find that West Coast pills or or hoppy pills if we're talking about it.

在这种背景下，这种风格能很好地发挥作用。

And that that sort of context works really well to play with that.

这实际上是一种方式，让我觉得我的顾客能更轻松地理解那种新型的、酒花浓郁的淡色啤酒，甚至超过我们市场中所谓的现代西海岸IPA。

It's actually a way in which I think our customer can like kind of understand pale sort of new age hopped beer more so than even what we would consider like a modern West Coast IPA in my market.

所以，要回答你的问题，我发现拉格啤酒的一个亮点在于发酵风味——这取决于你如何处理，取决于你使用的酵母、温度，以及具体的发酵曲线，它们可以有极大的差异。

And so to sort of answer your question, I do find that already what I one of the things I love about lager is the fermentation character depending on how you treat that, depending on what yeast you use, depending on what temperature, depending on exactly like what your fermentation profile is and they can be massively varied.

我喜欢发酵与酒花之间的相互作用，这在我心目中，和欧洲大陆酒花与发酵的结合并无不同。

I do love the interplay of fermentation with hops which is not any different to me in my head as fermentation with hops that are from Continental Europe.

因此，我只是想看看，同样的发酵风格搭配不同的酒花品种，能创造出怎样的效果。

And so it's just seeing what that same profile can create with a different kind of hop profile.

所以，这就是我们看待这个问题的方式。

So that's kinda really we look at it.

我甚至在西海岸风格或酒花型皮尔森啤酒上也保持相当传统。

I I literally keep it pretty traditional even on sort of West Coast or Hoppy Pilsner.

它的制作流程几乎和我制作德国皮尔森啤酒时一样。

It's it's still almost the same process that I would use for like a German pills.

然后只是简单地用新一代啤酒花进行酒花添加，来看看会产生怎样的风味互动。

And then it's just literally hopped with sort of new age varieties just to see what the interplay might be.

为了明确区分这一点，这就是为什么你可以在酒单上同时提供七、八款皮尔森啤酒的原因。

And to draw a massive distinction, that's how you can have seven, eight pilsners on tap.

对吧？

Right?

它们每一款的味道都彼此迥异。

They all taste very different from one another.

这就像是去一家精酿酒吧，发现他们有七款浑浊IPA一样。

It's like having it's like going to a brew though and saying, oh, they've got seven hazy IPAs.

其实是一个道理。

It's kind of the same thing.

对吧？

Right?

但我发现这更有趣，也更有区分度，因为这些啤酒的麦芽风味也可能有显著差异。

Like but I find it even more interesting and more a higher distinction because the malt profile on those can also play a significant difference in those beers.

这不仅仅是用一种浑浊基酒搭配12种不同的啤酒花组合。

And it's not just like a hazy base with 12 different combinations of hops.

对吧？

Right?

所以我觉得这更引人入胜，也更有趣。

So I find that even more intriguing and more interesting.

而且，我想接着你刚才说的，你提到你用莫图卡啤酒花做了一款检查酒。

And and I guess to sort of piggyback off what you said a minute ago, you mentioned having a check logger that you use Motueka in.

所以我们做了一系列啤酒。

So we we do a we do a series of beers.

我们有几款常年供应的捷克风格拉格。

We've got a few like year round Czech style lagers.

但我也会做这种季节性的捷克拉格啤酒。

But I also do this seasonal Czech lager thing.

而夏天刚刚结束，很明显。

And so the summer just ended obviously.

我们的夏季拉格啤酒叫‘Letney’。

And for our summer lager, it's called letney.

Letney拉格啤酒。

Letney lager.

在捷克语中，‘Letney’的意思是夏天。

Letney in Czech means summer.

所以它基本上就是夏季拉格啤酒。

So it's just summer lager basically.

本质上，它是一款极其传统的捷克风格淡色拉格啤酒。

And essentially, it's a and as an example, it's an extremely traditional Czech style pale lager.

它全部使用来自Hana的摩拉维亚地板发芽麦芽，经过改良处理。

It's all Moravian floor malted under modified malts from Hana.

它添加了一点C10来调节颜色，大约占2.5%到3%。

It has a touch of c 10 for sort of for color, which is like two and a half, 3%.

我们对它进行三次糖化煮沸。

We do a triple decoction on it.

每次煮沸持续十分钟。

It's ten minute boils each.

整个酿造过程完全使用大量的Cosmic、Schlottic啤酒花，以及少量的Sod Tops。

And then it's hopped entirely with a bunch of cosmic and schlottic and a little bit of sod tops.

但在旋沉阶段，我们会加入一点Strata，这会彻底改变风味，尤其是与我们使用的Budvar酵母相互作用时。

Except at the Whirlpool, we add like a little bit of strata and it completely changes the profile especially against like the Budvar yeast that we ferment it with.

它带来一种极其果香的芳香气息，几乎像在吃糖果一样，我觉得它很像哈瑞宝软糖，那种浓郁的果味与这种极其传统的啤酒基底形成鲜明对比。

It provides this like extremely fruity like aromatic like it almost is like like eating a I would say it's kind of reminds me of like Haribo's gummies like it has like this like really fruity character against this backdrop of something that is extremely traditional.

只需要在旋沉阶段加入几磅这种啤酒花，就能完全将它变成一种我觉得非常特别、有趣且独特的产品。

And that's all it takes is like like a couple pounds of this in the whirlpool just to completely throw that thing to something that I find extremely special and interesting and unique.

这正是我们喜欢探索的传统工艺与现代啤酒花之间的巧妙结合。

And that's like an interplay of like tradition and sort of new age hop that we like to play with.

这太有趣了。

That's super fun.

就像是那种微妙的点睛之笔，让整体变得略有不同。

It's just like the subtlety of just like this like just like little chef's kiss in order to like make something just that much different.

非常用心。

Super thoughtful.

是的。

Yeah.

你。

You.

我有个麦克风。

I have a microphone.

用现代酒花来演绎这种经典风格，真是个很有趣的想法。

That's a really interesting idea using contemporary hops in this classic kind of iteration.

反过来呢？对于这些现代美式IPA，如果加入一些经典或贵族型酒花作为基础，是否也能营造出一点皮尔森的风味，让现代酒花在其之上发挥？

Does the inverse of that work for these modern West Coast pills where having some sort of touchstone or base of classic or noble ish hops also builds a little bit of Pilsner character that hops your modern hops can play on top of?

你们中有谁在做这类工作吗？

Are any of you all working in that kind of space?

感觉你更多地在往这个方向发展。

Feel like you're working more into that space.

我的意思是，这可能甚至不局限于啤酒花，但昨天酿造那天，我一直这么说。

I I mean, it it may not even be hop specific, but it's like, you know, yesterday during the brew day, I kept saying this.

我们这些啤酒的干投酒花量非常高，而且总是在寻找平衡。

It's like, we're dry hopping these beers at a very high hopping rate, and we're always looking to find balance.

所以并不是这些酒花只是简单地堆在单薄脆弱的酒体上。

So it's not just all these hops sitting on this thin flimsy base.

因此，我们正在尝试为啤酒构建结构，以支撑这些酒花。

So we're trying to build structure in the beer to hold those hops.

我们发现，低α酸的酒花也能起到这个作用。

And we found that lower alpha hops are doing that as well.

它们通过单宁为啤酒增添酒体。

They're lending body through tannins.

因此，这是我们制作低酒精度、高度干投啤酒的一种方法，这正是我们的西海岸药丸啤酒最终呈现的样子。

And so that has been one aspect of our approach into making lower ABV heavily dry hopped beers, which is what our West Coast Pills ends up being.

所以我们正在努力构建酒体结构，而这一点确实能从这种方式中获得。

So we're trying to build structure, and we do get that from that.

无论是欧洲的啤酒花、美国种植的，还是南半球的，我们都在寻找一些α酸含量较低、更具植物性特征的啤酒花，希望能增强酒体结构。

Whether it's continental hops or American grown or Southern Hemisphere, we're looking for some lower alpha acid, more vegetative matter, hopefully building some structure.

在这些不同来源的啤酒花中，有没有哪些特别擅长构建这种基础酒体？

Are there certain hops, you know, in those varying spheres that you find do a really nice job of building that base?

如果有，那么这类啤酒花在整个酒花配方中大概占多大比例？

And, you know, if so, like, what kind of percentage in a overall hop bill would that part of the hop, you know, piece be?

我要特别感谢Roy Farms，因为Dina在Timbo已经待了很久了。

I mean, I'll give the shout out to Roy Farms because Dina has been in Timbo for a long time.

我觉得，你知道的，我倾向于可持续发展，所以我会尽量选用离我们所在地更近的原料。

And I think, you know, we lean towards you know, I kinda have a sustainability lean, so I'm trying to to pick to utilize ingredients as close to where we are.

因此，我正在寻找美国本土的替代品，或者类似的东西。

So I'm trying to find American grown replacements or whatever that may be.

所以这就是我特别喜欢Adena的原因。

So that's why I really like Adena.

当我们刚开始开发这些啤酒时，用的是欧洲 hops，也许是某种萃取物，或者不管是什么吧。

When we first started developing those beers, they were continental hops, maybe it was a sauce or maybe, you know, whatever it may be.

但现在，我们更倾向于使用美国种植的品种。

But now, we we tend to lean towards US grown.

因为它们通常更新鲜，而且我们能得到的产品也更可预测。

Just they tend to be maybe fresher and more predictable as to the product that we're gonna get.

但说到这种可持续性的倾向，我觉得我们确实很喜欢。

But then, you know, that sustainability lean, I think we we like.

关于酒体，你一般会考虑一个大致的比例吗？

Is there a, you know, play a general percentage that you think about on body?

你们是怎么在热端添加这些原料来达到这种效果的？

And how do you add them through the hot side to to get that effect?

我对一些具体的细节其实不太在行。

I'm not very good at at the the like specific sometimes.

我得看看这些配方。

I I gotta look at the recipes.

我们通常在热端后期再添加这些酒花。

We we tend to load those a little later on the hot side.

所以也许我们会进行三十分钟的添加。

So maybe we do, a thirty minute addition.

也许我们一半的苦味来自六十分钟的添加，另一半苦味——其实我更愿意这么说，因为这是我们用来构建酒体结构的方法。

And maybe maybe it's like 50% of our bitterness is coming from our sixty minute edition, and 50% of our bitterness or maybe I'll actually say it more like this because this has been our approach to get that structure.

我们一半的酒花负荷是在六十分钟时添加的。

50% of our vegetative load is at sixty minutes.

我们一半的酒花负荷是在三十分钟时添加的。

50% of our vegetative load is at thirty minutes.

这基本上就是我们的方法：控制总的酒花负荷和总α酸含量。

And that's kind of our approach is maybe a total vegetative load and hitting total alpha acid amount.

这样讲清楚了吗？

Is that that's making sense?

是的。

Mhmm.

所以我认为我们现在已经达到了一个平衡点，即在热端的这两个时间点，各占约50%的植物负荷。

And so I think we've landed somewhere where it's about 5050% vegetative load at those points in time on the hot side.

实际上，我对此有个问题，因为昨天我们酿酒时聊过这个话题，你当时也提到过类似的观点——添加低α酸来增加酒体和口感，这让我觉得非常有趣，我回去后真想试试。

Actually, I have a question on that one because we talked about this a little bit yesterday when we're brewing, and you kinda mentioned the same thing, adding sort of low alphas, exactly what you said for body, right, and for texture and all that, which I found super intriguing and something that I'd I'd hope to play with when I get back.

但我觉得这些啤酒，尤其是你昨天提到的时候，我立刻想到了我们不同类型的皮尔森啤酒，我经常思考它们的ADF值和最终比重等指标。

But so I find with these, and this struck me right when you said it yesterday was when I think about the different sort of Pilsners that we have, right, I think a lot about obviously ADF and final gravities and everything on on each of these.

所以我的巴伐利亚皮尔森通常是发酵得最干的。

And so my like Bavarian pills is kind of the one that finishes the driest.

对吧？

Right?

它的最终比重通常在1.016到1.017左右，像橡皮泥一样。

It's usually like it could be one six, one seven sort of Play Doh final gravity.

而我发现我的美式皮尔森，我一般不希望最终比重低于1.020。

And then I find that like my American pills, I don't really like to be too much lower than two.

我觉得它需要再多一点酒体。

It sort of needs a little bit more body I find.

如果我酿一款西海岸皮尔森，我发现如果不这样，它会因为酒花风味而变得过于干烈，这听起来可能有点疯狂，但反而会给人一种甜腻的错觉。

If I ever do something like a West Coast pills, I find otherwise it gets entirely too dry for like the hop profile that it has and almost has a perception ironically is like this is gonna sound crazy.

它给我的感觉是，尽管酒体偏干，但因为酒花如此热带化，反而显得有点太甜了。

It has it has a perception to me of like almost too sweet even though it's sort of drier because the hops are like so tropical.

所以对于这类啤酒，我并不想让终了比重高于2.5，但也不想低于2.0。

And so I find with those, I don't really wanna be necessarily higher than two five final, but I don't wanna be below two.

我理想的状态是接近2.4或2.3，最低也不应低于这个范围，而我的捷克拉格则正好在3°P最理想。

And I ideally wanna be closer to like two four, two three at kind of the lowest ideally versus my check loggers, which I'm like three Plato's perfect.

对于这类啤酒，我并不想让终了比重低于3太多。

Like, don't really wanna be too much lower than three on those ones.

因此，当我构建酒体和口感时，通常会通过麦芽配方和糖化工艺来更精确地控制可发酵性。

And so like, I find that where I'm building texture and body, it's usually in malt profile and it's usually in like mashing process in order to create fermentability profiles kinda more precisely.

总之，我最终的问题是：你希望你的啤酒终了比重控制在多少？你觉得酒花负荷是如何影响这种酒体与比重之间的平衡的？

So anyway, I've I've my question ultimately would be is where do you like yours finishing and how do you think that hop load is translating to sort of that texture against that sort of gravity?

我的意思是，这很有趣，因为我们加州有一群人酿造西海岸风格的酒花啤酒，而我发现我们其实是个异类。

I mean, it's interesting because it's like we're I I think we have a peer group in California making West Coast hoppy beers, and I've learned that we're kind of an outlier.

我们的啤酒终酿比重偏高，而很多人酿造西海岸IPA或西海岸淡啤时，终酿比重通常在1.015到1.020左右。

We have a little bit higher finishing gravities where a lot of people are making whether it's West Coast IPA or West Coast pills, their beers are finishing at like 1.5 to two Play Doh.

而我们的西海岸啤酒终酿比重却达到2.5以上。

And, you know, our West Coast beers finish it like 2.5 plus.

这确实有点棘手。

And, you know, that's tricky.

当你把终酿比重提到那么高的时候，你就不希望甜味感太重，否则啤酒会显得腻口或松垮。

It's like I think when you get up into those, like, higher finishing gravity, you don't want the sweetness perception to be so much that the beers feel cloying or they feel flabby or, you know.

所以这就变成了一种摸索——了解你的系统和工艺中，哪些参数可以调整，来打造足够的苦味支撑，让啤酒依然清爽易饮。

And so then it becomes like, you know, learning for your system and process what knobs you can turn to give that bitterness backbone that makes it still snappy and drinkable.

我的意思是，我们之所以探索这种风格，是因为喜欢酒花，但也希望它好喝易饮。

I mean, that's I think what the impetus of us playing in this style is liking hops, but wanting some drinkability.

而我认为这种易饮性来自于恰到好处的苦味支撑。

And I think that drinkability comes from having the right like bitterness backbone.

所以这挺棘手的。

So it's it's tricky.

但我们最终的比重确实比较高。

But we finish we finish fairly high.

然后就要调整我们的水质参数、苦味度，找到合适的调节方式，你知道的。

And then it's like playing with our water profile, playing with our bitterness, you know, finding the right knobs to give, you know.

我们一直在不断调整每一款啤酒，因为我们永远不满足。

We're we're forever tinkering on every one of our beers because we're never satisfied.

所以，我们生产的每一批次啤酒，每一罐提姆博，都会稍微做些调整，我们通常一次只改一个变量，看看有没有效果，然后不断试验，直到找到我们想要的方向。

And so, you know, we every single batch of beer we make, every batch of Timbo probably has a little little you know, we try to just change one variable at a time so that we can see if it made a difference, and we just tinker till we kinda keep getting down that the path we wanna go.

我们稍后会继续这个对话，但在包装啤酒时，不妨考虑HeartPrint——数字罐印的开创者。

We'll be back to the conversation in a minute, but when it comes to packaging your brew, think HeartPrint, the original in digital can printing.

HeartPrint在北美设有三个地点，从概念设计到成品罐装，团队全程为您保驾护航。

With three locations across North America, the heart print team has your back from concept to can.

您可以信赖我们快速的交货周期、无最低起订量、图形设计支持，以及坚固可靠的罐体质量，所有产品均采用100%无限可回收的铝罐。

Count on fast turnarounds, no minimums, graphic design support, and rock solid can quality, all in 100% infinitely recyclable cans.

在订购首批罐装啤酒时，提及《精酿啤酒酿造》播客，可享受10%折扣。

Get 10% off your first can order when you mention the craft beer brewing podcast.

请前往 heartprint.com 开设账户。

Open an account @heartprint.com.

网址是 heartprint.com，或发送邮件至 info@heartprint.com 获取详情。

That's hartprint.com, or email info@heartprint.com for details.

Brightly Software，西门子旗下的公司，与各组织在其资产生命周期的各个阶段展开合作。

And Brightly Software, a Siemens company, partners with organizations at every stage of their asset life cycle journey.

Brightly 是一套完整的资产管理和运营软件，通过数据驱动的决策、简化维护流程、优化资本规划以及合理配置资源，提升组织的可持续性、合规性和效率，其解决方案专为支持长期目标而设计。

Brightly is a complete asset management and operations software that enhances organizational sustainability, compliance, and efficiency through data driven decision making, streamline maintenance, simplify capital planning, and optimize resources with solutions uniquely designed to support long term goals.

了解更多，请访问 brightlysoftware.com。

Learn more at brightlysoftware.com.

埃文，你是如何在啤酒的酒花质感、终酿比重带来的口感，以及用苦味来平衡这些因素的精酿拉格中进行调控的呢？

Evan, how do you play in this space of texture from hops, texture from finishing gravity, and then, of course, using bitterness to balance against those things in hoppy lager.

我们其实一直在探索这些不同的领域，就像你们两位刚才提到的，我们也是那种习惯性不断调整的人，你知道的。

We've kind of played in all of these different spaces the way that I think both of them have talked about habitual tinkerers over here as well, you know.

所以我们目前在制作西海岸风格的啤酒时，全程使用西姆科酒花。

So we we're in a spot currently where for say West Coast pills, we are we're using Simco throughout.

所以我们走了相反的方向，分别在60分钟、30分钟和15分钟时添加酒花。

So we've gone the opposite direction and we have a sixty minute, a thirty minute, a fifteen minute.

这些啤酒中我们也添加了相当多的硫酸盐，我昨天在酿造会上说错了，但记得去年我们和Freem合作时，他们的风格更偏向德国式，就是希望酒体更干、更清爽。

We have a fair amount of sulfate in those beers too that I think I was misquoting yesterday when I was on our brew session, but it's like we did this collab with Freem last year and, you know, their interpretation was more German in style where they're just like, we want it drier, we want it leaner.

我们真的很喜欢这个方向。

And we really like this direction.

所以我们继续朝这个方向发展，而不是Bob所提到的那种更圆润、更接近传统皮尔森的风格。

And so we continue to kinda take it more in that direction direction instead of this like little rounder, more check pills kind of direction that Bob is talking about.

因此，我们的麦芽风味比较清瘦，使用了比拉蒙德皮尔森麦芽，还加了一点斯佩尔特麦芽。

And so, yeah, we have this like we have a lean malt character where we're using Byramund Pilsner malt, but and a little bit of spelt in these beers.

但除此之外，我们使用高硫酸盐、全程西姆科酒花，再加上大量的回旋沉淀和大量干投酒花。

But from there, high higher sulfate, Simco throughout, and then the, you know, big big whirlpool and then big dry hop as well.

但我觉得像Timbo这样的啤酒，因为实在可惜，我喝不到克里斯的啤酒足够多。

But it's like, I think the the the differences between, you know, something like Timbo because I don't get to drink enough of Chris's beers, which is just a shame.

烟熏拉格，这里是世界上最好的烟熏拉格酿造者。

Smoked lager, best best smoked lager maker in the world here.

但Timbo啤酒和我们做的东西之间的区别在于，我们的做法更干爽、更清瘦、更利落，而我认为鲍勃的做法则更偏果汁感。

But the the difference between like Timbo pills and something that we were doing is like we we're our our approach has been leaner and drier and and snappier while I think Bob's approach has been almost juicier of sorts.

那里有一种甜味，有一种中段味蕾的饱满感。

There's a there's a sweetness, there's a mid palate kind of body there.

我喜欢这两种风格。

And I I like I like both approaches.

当然。

Sure.

当然。

Sure.

你刚才提到了麦芽，这是我们还没讨论过的话题。

Well, you started talking about, you know, malt and that's something we haven't talked about yet.

鲍勃，对于你来说，你怎么看待这些啤酒中纯粹的皮尔森麦芽？

For you, Bob, you know, how do you think about just straight pilsner malt in these?

不。

No.

我的意思是，这其实又回到了这一点：我们知道酒里会加很多啤酒花，所以我们需要一个基础麦芽。

I mean, it kinda goes back to this, like, we know we're gonna have a lot of hops in there, and we want that base.

所以，目前我们用的是大约一半的生麦芽或两行麦芽，另一半则传统上使用环境麦芽和地板发芽的鲍尔麦芽。

And so, you know, currently, we it's like a half raw or two row, roughly half, and then half historically, used Environment and Floor Malted Bow Pills.

现在我们使用的是阿德米尔麦芽，这是一种加利福尼亚麦芽。

Now, we're we use Admiral pills, is a California malt.

你知道，环境麦芽或鲍尔麦芽，以及阿德米尔麦芽，都是颜色非常浅的麦芽，但我认为它们的风味特征比两行麦芽要丰富得多。

And, you know, that that Vironment for malted bow pills or the Admiral pills are malts that are very pale in color, but I would say much higher in character than that Rar two row.

因此，它们带有一些烘烤感和面包香，我认为这种麦芽再次为啤酒提供了结构感、面包感和厚重感。

And so they have some toastiness, some breadiness, and I think that malt lends once again some of that like structure and that breadiness and that that weight to the beer.

所以我们以前的配方大概是45%的两行麦芽，45%的维拉门地板发芽鲍尔麦芽，再加10%的维拉门卡罗泡沫麦芽，现在我们用阿德米尔麦芽替换了维拉门麦芽。

So we're we're we were at that let's say it's 45% Rartura, 45% Vyramen floor malted bow pills, and then like a 10% Vyramen Carafoam, and now we've swapped in the Admiral pills for that Vyramen malt.

但总体来说，这就是我们的做法。

But that's that's generally our approach.

有一件事，我相信你们在这里想问的，也是我们意识到的：当我们开始用3470号酵母酿造所有西海岸IPA时，我们主要的西海岸IPA叫做《Hello LA》。

One thing that, like, I'm sure you're getting at here and that I think is is something that we've recognized, when we made the transition to making all of our West Coast IPAs with thirty four seventy, we are, like, primary West Coast IPAs called Hello LA.

所以Timbo和Hello LA都是用马赛克和西楚酒花干投的啤酒。

So Timbo and Hello LA are both mosaic and citra dry hopped beers.

Hello LA的麦芽基底是阿图罗，再加上维也纳麦芽和Carafoam。

Hello LA has a base of Arturo and then Vienna and Carafoam.

而Timbo的麦芽配方中有45%是地板发芽谷物。

And then Timbo has this 45% of a floor malted grain bill.

我之所以这么说，是因为我们一直都在想：为什么这两种啤酒差别这么大？

And I just say that because forever we are kinda like, why are these beers so different?

它们的发酵工艺是一样的。

They have the same fermentation profile.

它们的干投酒花方式也完全相同。

They have the same dry hopping regimen.

我反复思考这个问题，觉得是那种花香型发芽麦芽带来了某种更明显的热带水果风味，或者让Timbo多了些硫化物的气息。

And I just kinda keep coming back to this floral there's something about the floral malted aspect was bringing in this, like, higher tropical note to the beer or higher sulfur note to Timbo.