461：冯·埃伯特与零重力借助工艺助剂节省成本并酿造更优质的啤酒

你可以把它连接到一个计量泵上。

You know, you could you could set it up on a dosing pump.

你可以测量顶部空间的泡沫，如果需要的话再添加更多。

You can you can measure foam in the headspace, and you could add more if it's needed.

事实上，啤酒和生物制药领域之间有很多可以互相借鉴的地方。

In fact, there's so much in beer and and biopharmaceutical that that we can learn from each other.

但在生物制药反应器中，泡沫也是一个问题，通常在生物制药发酵过程中，当泡沫积累过多时，就会添加更多的消泡剂。

But in a in a biopharmaceutical bioreactor, you know, foaming is a problem in those vessels as well, and that that oftentimes is how those antifoams are used in biopharmaceutical fermentations where they will if if the foam builds up too much, then they'll add more any foam in the process.

所以，是的，你可以在啤酒厂里这么做。

So, yeah, you you could do that in a brewery.

但你得有一个机制来实现这一点，而很多酿酒工艺都还没有实现自动化。

But then you kinda have to have a mechanism for doing that, and that's where a lot of the brewing processes are you know, everything is not automated.

所以，如果你没有相关的仪器、计量泵和其他设备，那确实可行。

So if you don't have the instrumentation, you don't have the metering pumps and all that kind of stuff set up, then, yes, it works.

但在实际操作中，这样做非常困难。

But in practice, it it's difficult to really do that.

所以跟我说说这背后的原理吧，阿什顿。

So talk to me about the mechanics of this, Ashton.

我的意思是，你显然希望这个物质最终从啤酒中析出，因为在某个阶段，我们需要泡沫，但泡沫必须以有效的方式存在于溶液中，实现它的功能。

I mean, this is something you you obviously want this to drop out of the beer eventually because there's a point where we want it you know, we want that foam, but it needs to serve and be effective and in solution in a way that accomplishes its goal.

那么，你是如何平衡这两点的呢？如何在低温环境下、在发酵过程中保持其在溶液中的状态，使其有效，同时又让泡沫在适当的时候自然析出？

So how do you how do you balance those two things, keeping it in solution, especially on the cold side, keeping it in solution during fermentation in a way that, you know, can be effective, but then also allowing that the, you know, time and mechanics.

那么，让泡沫从啤酒中析出的机制是什么？到了工艺末期，当啤酒完成包装时，泡沫能够完美地重新形成。

And what are the mechanics about dropping that out of the beer so that by that end of that process, once your beer is packaged, it is going to that foam is going to gloriously return.

关键就在于让泡沫能够完美地重新形成。

Well, that that's the key is having the foam gloriously return.

消泡剂本质上是表面活性的。

The the antifoams are inherently they're surface active.

它们并不真的想留在啤酒里。

They don't really they don't wanna be in in the beer.

它们更愿意停留在液面表面。

They wanna be hanging out at the surface.

它们通常是疏水性的。

They tend to be hydrophobics.

它们会聚集在发酵罐的顶部。

They're at the top of the fermenter.

所以，如果消泡剂流失了，那它一定是被某种东西带走的。

So orientation, if there if the antifoam is lost, it's lost to something.

它可能会附着在容器表面，比如罐壁。

So it can get lost to your surfaces, whether that's the tank wall.

假设你添加的消泡剂不足，产生了泡沫，那么泡沫会携带消泡剂并将其粘在酒塞的侧壁上。

Let's say you don't add enough antifoam and you have some foam, then the foam will carry the antifoam and stick it to the side of the peg.

总的来说，它被去除的方式是与酵母絮凝在一起。

So in general, the way that it's removed is it will flocculate with yeast.

消泡剂，特别是当你使用容易结块的酵母时，会附着在酵母上，然后与酵母一起絮凝，这是它被去除的主要方式，除非你真的在进行顶部酵母收集。

The antifoam, especially if you have a yeast that pop crops, it'll stick to the yeast and then it'll flocculate with the yeast, which is how unless you're top truly top cropping your yeast.

大部分消泡剂都是通过这种方式被去除的，但我总是告诉我们的客户：除非你使用离心或过滤，或者通过实证确定消泡剂没有任何残留的负面影响，否则我不太建议使用消泡剂。

That's where most of it is removed, but I always tell our customers, I really I don't feel comfortable with using antifoam unless you're either centrifuging and or filtering or empirically determining that the antifoam does not have any residual negative effect.

所以这在很大程度上是一种经验性做法，但对于许多啤酒厂，尤其是那些使用消泡剂的大型啤酒厂，它们通常会使用某种深层过滤器，而深层过滤器确实能去除消泡剂。

So it is kind of an empirical thing, but for a lot of brewery, you know, especially the larger breweries that are using antifoams, they're they're typically using some type of depth filter, and the depth filter will will definitely remove the antifoam.

但如果你的啤酒中残留有消泡剂，你是能察觉到的，因为你会遇到起泡问题。

But if you have residual antifoam in beer, you'd know it because you would have foaming issues.

我之前没提到的关于消泡剂的另一点是，它能让你的发酵罐容量提升约20%，因为大多数发酵罐都额外预留了约33%的顶部空间来应对泡沫。

The other thing I failed to mention about antifoam is that it's an easy way to gain about 20% of capacity in your fermenter because of all the you know, most fermenters have about 33% headspace additional just for that foam.

通过使用消泡剂，你可以将发酵罐装得更满，从而提高罐体利用率，而无需为了增加容量去投资更多设备。

By using an antifoam, you can you can fill your fermenting vessel higher and get more tank utilization without having to, you know, invest more in in the solar if you need more volume.

每个人都喜欢免费的罐体空间。

And everybody loves free tank space.

是的。

Yes.

当然。

For sure.

当然。

For sure.

关于消泡剂还有别的要谈的吗？还是说我们接下来该讨论酶了？

Anything else on antifoam, or should we I guess, next on our list of things to talk about are enzymes.

阿什顿，关于酶你想从哪里开始？

Where do you wanna start on in enzymes, Ashton?

我们是不是该谈谈，你知道的，这个话题其实很复杂，因为有不同的酶，各自用途也不同。

Should we talk about, you know, kind of a I mean, because this is a multifaceted kind of subject in terms of, you know, different enzymes and what they're used for.

你能不能给我们做一个简要的概述？

Why don't you give us a a brief overview?

是的。

Yeah.

关于酿造过程中使用的酶，简要来说可以分为三大类。

So the the brief overview on on enzymes that are used in the mash, I I think, really fall into three main buckets.

第一类是用于提高可发酵性糖的酶，淀粉葡萄糖苷酶就是推动发酵转化的典型代表。

The one bucket are enzymes that are used to drive work from intability, and amyloglucosidase is really kind of the the textbook model of the enzyme that that drives ferment to build.

无论你是酿造IPA，如果我没记错的话，几年前这种啤酒还挺流行的。

So whether you're making a a brew IPA, which I if I'm I'm in research correct, those were popular for maybe a couple months back, a few years ago.

或者说是生产淡啤酒也是如此。

Or making a light beer for that matter.

下一个类别是淡啤酒。

Nestle one is returning light beer.

我们看到很多人在谈论淡啤酒。

We see a lot of people talking about light beer.

因此，淀粉葡萄糖苷酶就是用于这个的酶。

So amylglucosidase is the enzyme for that.

另一类属于糖化酶的是α-淀粉酶。

The other enzyme class that falls into mash enzymes are basically alpha amylase.

所以，分解大分子淀粉，而第三类酶则是纤维素酶。

So breaking down big starch molecules, and then the the third bucket of enzymes would be cellulase enzymes.

也就是β-葡聚糖酶或阿拉伯木聚糖酶这类酶。

So, you know, beta gluconase and or arabidoxylanase type enzymes.

解释一下这些酶是什么以及它们的作用。

Explain what those are and what those do.

抱歉。

Sorry.

是的。

Yeah.

我们之前谈到的第一个是淡啤酒酿造。

The first one we talked about, light beer brew.

如果你使用的是没有糊化的辅料，比如玉米或大米，想把它们的分子稍微分解一下，然后让麦芽酶接手，那么α-淀粉酶的效果其实并不理想。

The alpha amylase isn't really good if you're using adjuncts that are not gelatinized, and you wanna, you know, you wanna take, like, corn or rice and break down the molecules a little bit and then let the malt enzymes take over.

这就是为什么你需要使用外源性α-淀粉酶的原因之一。

That's one reason why you why you use a exogenous alpha amylase.

而纤维素酶，比如β-葡聚糖酶和阿拉伯木聚糖酶——通常它们是混合使用的——当你使用低改性麦芽或未发芽的辅料，比如燕麦、黑麦、小麦、大麦来酿造浑浊啤酒时，如果出现麦汁分离问题，这些纤维素酶能显著改善麦床的过滤流程。

And then the cellulase enzymes, the beta gluconase, arabinoxylenase, which is oftentimes a mixture, those are used if you're using either under modified malts or if you're using unmalted adjuncts like oats, rye, wheat, barley for hazies or whatever kind of beer and you have wort separation problems in the water con, the cellulose enzymes can really help with the the workflow through your grain bed.

显然，在糖化过程中，你整个糖化转化的目的，也是为了从大麦中自然释放出这些酶。

Obviously, through the mash process, you know, you are the whole point of mash conversion is to also release some of these enzymes naturally from that barley.

我的意思是，这正是我们喜欢的地方。

I mean, that's what we love about.

这就是为什么啤酒能成功的原因，对吧，因为大麦本身就含有这些酶。

It's why why beer works, right, because barley has some of these enzymes.

但有时候自然需要一点帮助，而这些物质确实能推动这个过程。

But there are times when nature needs a little bit of help, and, you know, and some of these things help that NASH along.

史蒂夫，酶在你的NASH工艺中扮演什么角色？你在哪里找到了它们能显著提升整体工艺的最佳点？

Steve, how do how do enzymes fit into your NASH process, and where have you found a sweet spot that they help improve that overall process?

所以我们使用了三种酶类别中的一种——糖化酶，并将其用于我们的淡拉格啤酒。

So we use one of the three enzyme categories, the amyloglucosidase, and we use it in our light lager.

有趣的是，我们在添加量上最初选择了推荐范围的中间值。

What's really interesting is that we started at about the middle of the range in terms of the dosing process or the dosing rate, I should say.

我们的添加量大约是每吨650毫升，而推荐范围大概是250到1200PPM。

We're about six hundred and fifty mils per ton with the ranges recommended, you know, anywhere from ash and trekking, maybe two hundred and fifty to 1,200 PPM.

所以我们正好处在中间位置。

So we're about smack dab in the middle there.

有趣的是，我们在2023年开始研发一款全麦芽的淡拉格啤酒，目标是做出一款酒精度为4%的啤酒。

We started developing an all malts, interestingly enough, light lager in 2023, where we were trying to develop a beer at 4%.

它喝起来仍然有种精酿的韵味，特别适合新英格兰地区的皮尔森啤酒爱好者，依然有不错的酒体和风味。

It still drank like, you know, it had a kind of a craft soul to it for, you know, the New England, you know, Pilsner consumer, you know, something that that still had some body, still had some flavor to it.

我们的试点项目很有意思。

Our pilots were interesting.

你知道吗？

You know?

我们酿造的是一款全麦芽啤酒。

We ran it's an all malt beer.

如果你能想象的话，这款酒含有15%的维也纳麦芽。

It's got actually 15% Vienna in it, if you can imagine that.

我们做了三次试点，但每次都达不到我们的可发酵糖率目标。

We ran three pilots, and we kept coming short on our RDFs.

我们原本希望达到约66%的可发酵糖率，同时保持较高的终了比重。

We were looking for about 66% with a relatively high finishing gravity.

这也是这款啤酒的另一个独特之处。

That's one of the other unique things about this beer.

它的收尾口感大约像1.8的彩泥。

It finishes at about 1.8 Play Doh.

那些早期的试验批次，你的RDF值只有61.5%。

Those early pilots, you're coming in at 61 and a half percent RDF.

我们目标是66%。

We're looking for 66.

当我们加入Amlod 300后，RDF值立刻飙升了。

And so as soon as we added the Amlod 300, we saw that RDF shoot right up.

我们当时已经采用相当激进的分段糖化和长时间糖化了。

And we were already doing a fairly aggressive step mash and a fairly long mash.

我们把时间分配在140和149之间，持续55分钟，却还是达不到目标。

Know, it's fifty five minutes where we're splitting time between one forty and one forty nine and still falling short of our target.

这帮助我们轻松顺利地达成了目标。

So this helped us get across the finish line relatively easily and painlessly.

自从扩大生产规模以来，它已经成为我们的全年常驻啤酒，我们已经能大幅降低添加量了。

Since scaling it up and since then, you know, it's become a year round beer for us, We've been able to dial that dosage rate back considerably.

我们实际上略低于推荐阈值，但仍然实现了完全发酵。

We're actually below the the recommended threshold ever so slightly, but we're still seeing complete fermentations.

这是一种轻盈的啤酒，带有一些干爽和清爽感，但风味依然不错。

So it's a light beer that's got some some dryness, some snappiness to it, but still some decent flavor.

这种酶在帮助我们达成目标方面真的起到了巨大作用。

And this enzyme really, really made a big difference for us in getting there.

所以我非常推崇它。

So I'm a big fan.

是的。

Yeah.

对。

Yeah.

我记得，即便从另一个角度看，虽然它最常与淡啤酒关联，但也有一些高酒精度酿酒师在酿造非常浓郁的大麦酒，你知道的，酒精度能达到15%到20%。

I remember I mean, even on the other side of things, while it's most often associated with light beer, there are some very high gravity brewers making big, big stouts, but, you know, also potentially and, you know, we're talking 15 to 20% ABV beers.

在这些极具挑战性的发酵过程中，如果需要酵母完成如此长的发酵，一点点α-淀粉酶确实能起到帮助。

And a little bit of that amyloglecosidase can certainly help some of these really challenging fermentations when you need yeast to go that far.

我记得科罗拉多的Avery酒厂就是靠这个秘诀来酿造这些超高酒精度的啤酒的，不过现在在精酿啤酒界已经不那么流行了。

I remember Avery here in Colorado was that was their kinda secret for for making these just super ultra high gravity beers, you know, but not not such a popular aspect of the craft beer world as much anymore.

萨姆，这些酶是怎么进入你的糖化过程的？

Sam, how do how do these enzymes work their way into your mash process?

你酿酒时会特别偏好哪些酶吗？

Are there any that you favor for for your brew?

天啊。

Oh my god.

阿什顿，你还记得之前那封来回往复的邮件吗？

Ashton, do you remember this email thread back and forth?

大概五年前你就讨论过这个话题。

You had probably like four or five years ago about this.

我想我记得。

I think so.

是的。

Yeah.

不记得。

No.

你脸上的表情说明你记不起来了。

The look on your face said that you don't remember.

没关系。

That's okay.

好吧。

Alright.

所以，史蒂夫，你正在做的这些，我们以前在规模小得多的时候也尝试过。

So, Steve, exactly what you are doing, we tried to do when we were on a much smaller scale.

我还给阿什顿发过邮件谈这件事。

And I emailed Ashton about it.

我说，听好了。

I'm like, listen.

我们正在使用β-葡萄糖苷酶。

We're we're using inguinal glucosidase.

这对我们来说根本行不通。

This is not not doing it for us.

哪里出了问题？

What's wrong?

阿什顿发了一封很长的邮件，详细解释了它的原理，以及我们的——你知道的，百分比，不对，是我们的剂量率——低得离谱。

Ashton sent a really awesome long email explaining how it works and how our, you know, percentages or sorry, our dosage rate was, you know, super low.

我们试过提高剂量。

We tried going higher.

但还是没用。

It wasn't working.

我们有点放弃它了，而且我们用的光疗设备可能和史蒂夫的不太一样。

We kind of gave up on it a little bit and we were hitting our our light lighter, I think, is designed a little bit different than near Steve.

所以我觉得这根本不是同类比较，而是风马牛不相及。

So I think it's apples to oranges, not apples to apples here.

我们的目标是1，但我们一直很难把数值降到1.5、1.6以下。

We were targeting one and we just were really struggling to get below like one five, one six.

几年后，我们搬到了更大的酿造厂，一切突然就顺利了。

And a couple years later, we end up moving to this bigger brewhouse and everything just fell into line.

我们甚至都没使用酶。

And we weren't even using the enzyme.

我们开始达到1.0了。

We started hitting one point o.

我知道我听起来像是在劝别人别用酶，但史蒂夫的例子恰恰证明了情况并非如此。

I know I sound like I'm talking people out of using enzymes, but I think Steve just proved that that's that's not the case.

它确实对某些人有用。

It does work for some people.

在这个更大的酿造厂里，我们开始稳定地达到1.0。

And on this bigger Brewhouse, we just started hitting one.

所以，阿什顿，感谢你在邮件讨论中的宝贵建议，但其实没有酶，问题自己就解决了。

So, Ashen, thank you for all of your wonderful input on that email thread, but it sort of took care of itself without the enzyme.

然后

And then

哦，你说得对，萨姆。

Oh, you're right, Sam.

我不记得那件事了。

I don't remember that.

很高兴事情顺利解决了。

So glad it worked out.

是的。

Yeah.

然后，对。

And then yeah.

今年，这款啤酒在世界啤酒杯和GBF比赛中获奖了。

We ended up winning it World Beer Cup and GBF this year for that beer.

感谢你们这些年来对《美国生活奥格》的全部帮助。

So thanks for all your help over the years on American Life Auger.

这就是我们想听到的。

That's what we like to hear.

我们接下来聊什么？

What should we talk about next?

我们是继续讨论酶的话题，还是你想谈谈在糖化过程中使用这些酶的其他细节或注意事项？

Should we move stay on the enzyme talk topic and move into or are there any other kinds of ins and outs of how you use these enzymes on the MASH side that you wanna talk about or explain?

阿什顿，你有没有看到酿酒师们还有其他什么合理的使用这些酶的案例？

Ashton, are there any other kinds of use cases that you see brewers using these, you know, that that makes some sense out there?

有两种情况，我想问问史蒂夫或山姆，你们有没有使用过β-葡聚糖酶？

There are two, and I wanna I mean, just kinda curious if Steve or Sam, if you use do either of you use a beta gluconase type enzyme?

没有。

No.

我们不用。

We don't.

我希望这不会是长期现象，但我们在RBSG卖很多米糠。

I'm I'm hoping this is not a a long term thing, but we sell a lot of rice hulls at RBSG.

我们把米糠卖给使用米类辅料的酿酒商。

And we sell rice hulls to brewers that are using flaked adjuncts.

很多我称之为废弃物的产品，比如米糠，是大米加工过程中的副产品，一旦这些产品找到应用场景，有时会出现需求意外激增的情况。

And like a lot of I'm gonna call them waste stream products and rice hulls are kind of a waste stream of rice processing these products are once they find an application, sometimes there's like an unexpected rise in demand.

因此，我们发现目前米糠正面临供应链问题，需求可能在一定程度上超过了供应能力。

So we have found that the rice hulls are actually right now there's kind of a supply chain issue where the the demand is maybe pushing the supply side a little bit.

所以酿酒商开始找我们，询问是否有其他替代米糠的材料可用？

So brewers are coming to us and asking are there other things they could be using instead of rice hulls?

β-葡聚糖酶就是其中一种这样的酶。

And beta gluconase enzymes are one such enzyme.

我们有一个名为β-葡聚糖酶的产品，我知道有一些客户已经用这种酶替代了米糠，来实现米糠在糖化过程中的作用。

So we have a product called by gluconase that I know that we have some customers that have replaced rice hulls with that type of enzyme to do to the mash what rice oils do.

它的主要作用是降低麦汁粘度。

It's basically reduced wort viscosity.

市场上还有一种新推出的酶，我们刚刚正式推出，这种酶叫做葡萄糖氧化酶。

There's another enzyme that's new on the market that we literally just launched, and the enzyme is a glucose oxidase enzyme.

它的商品名叫Paceline G，主要针对无酒精啤酒和低酒精啤酒。

And it's the the trade name is called Paceline G and it's really it's really focused for non alcoholic beer, low alcohol beer.

它的作用是将麦汁中已有的葡萄糖转化为葡萄糖酸，产生一种涩感。

And what it does is it takes glucose, it's present in the wort, and it converts the glucose to gluconic acid, which has a mouse feel effect.

如果你使用的是麦芽糖阴性酵母，它会去除一部分麦芽糖阴性酵母本应转化为酒精的葡萄糖。

And if you're using a maltose negative yeast, it's removing some of the glucose that maltose negative yeast would convert into alcohol.

这是一种全新的酶和全新的应用，前景非常广阔。

It's a brand new enzyme, new application, and it's showing a lot of promise.

它实际上提升了无酒精啤酒的风味稳定性，消除了部分粗糙感，是一种非常不错的酶。

It it actually improves the the flavor stability of NA's and takes away some of that warty character, but it's a it's a pretty cool enzyme.

我们希望啤酒厂能觉得这个用途很有用。

We we're hoping that that breweries find that useful.

很有趣。

Interesting.

关于用纤维素酶替代米糠，想向阿什顿问个问题。

Quick question there for Ashton on supplementing rice hulls with some of the cellulose enzymes.

2021年，我记得那一年北美作物收成特别差，情况很艰难。

In 2021, I'm pretty sure, was it that we had a really rough crop year in North American crop in particular was was tough.

你有没有遇到很多客户，或者发现有人使用这些酶来帮助麦汁分离？

Did you have a lot of customers or find people were using some of those enzymes just to help with wort separation?

是的。

Yeah.

这是个很好的观点，史蒂夫，谢谢你提醒我，这是另一个关键应用。

That's a great point, Steve, and I appreciate you reminding me that that's the other key application.

麦芽制造商们，我们试图忘记这个糟糕的大麦收成。

Maltsters, we try to forget about this horrible barley crop.

但当大自然发怒，给我们带来难以糖化的麦芽或大麦时，这类纤维素酶在糖化过程中确实非常有用。

But when when nature when mother nature gets angry and gives us, you know, malt or barley that makes malting difficult, those types of cellulase enzymes definitely do have a very good use in the mash.

我记得我年轻时当种植户，大概是1998年或1999年，那年也遭遇了一次特别糟糕的大麦收成，当时这类酶也曾一度供不应求。

And I remember when I was a young grower back in the, I think, like, 1998 or 1999, there was another baldy crop that was particularly kinda rough and that there was another kind of run on on those types of enzymes.

所以，没错，这是个好观点。

So, yeah, a good point.

现在我们已经讨论了热端酶。

Let's now we've talked about hot side enzymes.

让我们来谈谈一些冷侧酶。

Let's let's talk about some of the cold side enzymes.

我认为，尤其是对于西海岸IPA酿造商来说，目前最受欢迎的是ALDC，它能控制酒花蠕变，确保降低双乙酰含量，生产出合格的成品啤酒。

I think one of the most popular today amongst West Coast IPA brewers in particular is ALDC and, you you know, controlling hop creep and making sure that we keep VDK low and finished beer.

非常重要。

Super, super important.

那么，阿什顿，你能不能解释一下这些冷侧酶是什么，ALDC是什么，它们的作用途径是怎样的？之后我们可以先问问萨姆，他们在酒厂里是怎么使用这些酶的，因为现在这已经成为IPA酿造中一个重要的环节。

And so why don't why don't we why don't you explain a little bit, Ashton, what what some of these cold side enzymes are, what ALDC is, how what the kind of pathway of function they have, and then we can talk to maybe we'll talk to Sam first about how they use it in the brewery because, you know, it's kind of become a an important piece of of IPA brewing these days.

是的。

Yeah.

简而言之，ALDC会作用于双乙酰的前体物质——乙酰乳酸，这种物质由酵母细胞分泌出来，而该酶会将乙酰乳酸直接转化为丙酮。

ALDC in a nutshell, it it takes it takes the precursor of diacetyl, the alpha acetylactate that's excreted from the yeast cell, and the enzyme takes the the precursor alpha acetylactate and it takes it straight to acetone.

这是一种风味中性的化合物。

So that's kind of a flavor neutral compound.

它在细胞外发挥作用。

It does that outside of the cell.

这是一个快速的过程。

So it's a it's a rapid process.

所以，如果你在测量丙酮，就不会出现峰值。

So basically, if you're measuring the acetone, there's never a spike.

因此，ALDC通常是在没有酵母的情况下添加的。

So the the ALDC is typically added without yeast.

当你接种酵母时，就会加入ALDC。

You know, when you pitch your yeast, you would add ALDC.

如果你进行干投酒花，很多时候会在干投酒花的同时添加第二剂ALDC，以帮助控制酒花蠕变。

And if you're dry hopping, a lot of times, a second dose of ALDC would be added about the same time as you would dry hop to to help combat the hop creep.

因此，这种酶在艾尔啤酒酿造师和可能面临氧化问题的拉格啤酒酿造师中都非常受欢迎。

So that that's an enzyme that's definitely popular with ale brewers and then also lager brewers that might have some issues with the osatil.

在转向萨姆和史蒂夫之前，我再快速提一点：如果你的啤酒中已经存在双乙酰，它并不能解决已经存在的问题。

One one real quick point before you turn to Sam and Steve is that if you have diacetyl in your beer, it does not fix problems that are existing.

所以，如果你发现自己遇到了双乙酰问题，不能靠添加这种酶来解决，因为它的作用机制是在双乙酰重新形成之前发挥作用的。

So if you realize you've got, you know, a debaum on your hands, you can't add this enzyme to it and fix it because the the mechanism of action is that it does its thing before diacetyl reforms.

所以你仍然需要在热端进行处理，而不是

So you still need to get hot side processed and not

这就像系安全带一样。

Well, it's kinda like wearing a seat belt.

你知道，如果你发生了车祸，再系安全带，根本没什么用。

You know, if you get in a car accident and you put your seat belt afterwards, it doesn't really help anything.

你得在出现双乙酰问题之前，就把ALDC准备好。

You gotta have your ALDC buckled up before, you know, you got the diacetyl problem.

是的。

Sure.

那么在实际操作中，Sam，你是如何将ALDC融入你的酿造流程的，尤其是在西海岸IPA中？

So in a practical sense then, Sam, how how do you work ALDC into your practice, particularly around West Coast IPA?

因为如果你能阻止双乙酰前体的形成，就不会在干投啤酒花时因额外发酵而产生额外的双乙酰。

Because if you can prevent the diacetyl precursor from forming, then then you don't end up with this additional diacetyl from additional fermentation while dry hopping.

你明白吗？

You know?

谈谈这个在酒厂里是怎么运作的。

Talk talk about how that works in the brewery.

是的。

Yeah.

我们的流程非常简单。

Our our process is pretty simple.

我知道一些酿酒师采用完全不同的方法，也取得了很大成功。

I I know several brewers who do who do things very differently to to a lot of success.

所以我不确定。

So I don't know.

也许我们需要重新评估我们的做法。

Maybe we need to reevaluate what we're doing.

我们甚至可以取得更大的成功。

We can have even more success.

但我们只是添加中等剂量的干投啤酒花，经过二次发酵，然后很少会

But we really just add a sort of mid level rate app dry hop, go through our re fermentation and then rarely do we

我们有

do we have

一个强制的双乙酰检测失败了。

a force force diacetyl test that fails.

很简单。

Pretty simple.

但我想推荐一下在拉格啤酒中也使用它。

But I I do wanna put a plug in for using it in lagers as well.

我的意思是，在我们的皮尔森和俱乐部拉格中也用它，这样做的理由是为了进入冷沉降过程，多获得几天通常无法得到的低温时间。

I mean, use it in our our pills and our clubhouse lager and the reasoning behind that is to sort of get into the step crash process and get get a couple couple extra cold days in that fee that we normally wouldn't get.

所以，这不仅仅用于我们的西海岸IPA和美式IPA。

So, you know, it's not just in our in our West Coast and American ITAs.

它也用于我们所有的拉格啤酒。

It's it's also in our all of our lager beers.

所以你的意思是，这些拉格啤酒也能更快地清除双乙酰，让你更早进入熟成阶段，从而获得更多的熟成时间？

So you're saying that those lagers then also will clear vdks faster and allow you to get them into lagering sooner and give you more days of lagering because of that?

是的。

Yeah.

对。

Yeah.

我们也发酵得比较冷。

We we we ferment pretty cold too.

我们会在46华氏度时排出酵母，发酵温度保持在48华氏度，从不升温，使用较低剂量的八十年代ALDC，我已经不记得上一次lager强制测试失败是什么时候了。

We we knock out it for 46 f, ferment at 48, never rise, use a fairly low level of eighties ALDC, and then I I I can't remember the last time you failed a lager force.

史蒂夫，ALDC是如何进入你们生产的某些啤酒中的呢？

Steve, how's that do you how does ALDC find its way into some of the beers that you all make?

正如萨姆提到的关于拉格啤酒，我们在所有拉格啤酒中都会使用它。

So echoing what Sam has said about lagers, we use them in all of our lagers.

这其实挺有意思，它是怎么开始的。

It's interesting how it actually came about.

大约五年前，甚至更早一点，我们曾经……

We had maybe about five years ago, a little bit less.

我们的一位实验室技术人员接管了我们的感官检测项目，并将它提升到了一个新的水平。

One of our our lab technicians took over our sensory program, and she just took it to the next level.

她召集了几位同事，包括她自己，这些人对双乙酰特别敏感。

She rounded up a couple folks and herself included that were particularly sensitive to to diacetyl.

她负责管理我们在实验室进行的强制性双乙酰测试。

And, you know, she was managing the forced diacetyl test that we were doing in the lab.

他们会说：继续。

They would say, go.

不要。

No.

继续降温。

Go for chilling.

由于他们的敏感性，我可以理解，因为我自己并没有那么敏锐的感官，我们的DRS窗口不断延长。

And because of their sensitivity and I can appreciate it because I'm not, you know, so sense so acutely sensitive, our our DRS windows just kept extending.

所以，过去在没有这种感官验证之前，我们通常在第11天就开始降温，但后来逐渐推迟到第14天、第16天，有时甚至更晚。

So, you know, we were historically, it'd been chilling before we had this sort of sensory validation, you know, day 11 maybe, and that was getting pushed out day 14, day 16 at some points.

虽然在二乙酰方面情况不错，但我们牺牲了冷储时间，并且出现了一些其他不良风味。

And while there was a good thing on the diatzel side of things, we were sacrificing cold conditioning time, and we were picking up some other off flavors.

主要是裂解相关的风味，你知道的。

I mean, mostly lysis, you know, associated flavors.

所以我们需要找到一个解决方案，既能控制BDKs，又能让我们尽快进行冷沉降。

So we needed to figure out a solution that would, you know, both manage BDKs, but also get us, you know, crashing as soon as we could.

因此，我们在所有拉格啤酒中都使用它。

So we use it in all of our lager.

我们现在大约在34 PPM，所以这个数值偏高一些。

We're up at about 34 PPM, so a little bit on the the higher side there.

不过，最近我们已经将其下调至约25 PPM。

Although, recently, we rolled that back to about 25 PPM.

我们的发酵温度也偏低，但确实会进行一次复温。

We also ferment pretty cold, but we do do a a de rest.

我们的发酵温度是49度。

So we're fermenting at 49.

我们会升温到56度，并在五十五度左右进行保温。

We'll raise up to 56, and we'll get to the mid fifties for that rest.

但有时我们第九天就开始冷却了。

But we're chilling sometimes as early as day nine.

因此，我们平均能额外争取到大约五天的冷储时间。

So we're recovering on average, let's say, about five days worth of cold conditioning.

我们能更早地将酵母从啤酒中分离出来，同时也享受到了延长冷储带来的所有好处。

We're getting our yeast off the beer sooner, and we're just enjoying all the benefits of that extended cold conditioning for the beer too.

我想补充一点是，尽管我们实际上多出了大约五天的时间，但至今我们还没有缩短啤酒的总生产周期。

I guess one thing that I should add is that we have yet to cut down our cycle time for the beer in total despite the fact that we are realizing, you know, an extra five or so days.

你知道，我们的德国皮尔森啤酒是我们主打产品之一，在这里几乎是神圣不可侵犯的。

You know, our our German pilsner is is one of our flagships, and it's a bit of a sacred cow around here.

所以我不确定，如果我告诉别人，嘿，

So I'm not sure if I, you know, if I told anyone that, hey.

说这样能大幅节省罐体容量和制冷成本等等，会不会有人真的乐意接受我们缩短了青啤的生产周期。

This is gonna be a great savings for tank capacity and cooling costs, etcetera, that anybody would even even enjoy the idea that we were shortening the green state cycle time.

所以我们现在主要是在感官层面感受到这些好处，而不是经济层面，但未来会怎样还有待观察。

So we're realizing the benefits on a sensory level right now rather than on an economic level, but we'll see what the future holds there.

我的意思是，以这种方式酿出更好的啤酒，从来都不是坏事。

I mean, making better beer that way is it's never a bad thing either.

我们还需要讨论其他冷侧酶吗？还是现在该谈谈冷侧发现和发酵罐的发现了，阿什顿？

Any other cold side enzymes that we need to talk about, or should we talk about cold side findings and tank findings now, Ashton?

嗯，有一种冷侧酶，很多酿酒师都会用，但有些不会，我觉得它相当重要，那就是酿酒师克莱里克斯，也叫澄清稳固剂。

Well, there's the the one cold side enzyme that that, you know, a lot of brewers use, some brewers don't, but I think it's kind of a a big one is a brewer's Clerix, also called Clarity Firm.

简单来说，这种酶主要针对浑浊蛋白。

And just in a a nutshell, that enzyme is basically it goes after haze protein.

它专门作用于长链的脯氨酸氨基酸。

So it it specifically attacks long chains of proline amino acids.

浑浊蛋白通常富含脯氨酸，而这种酶会切断蛋白质中的这些脯氨酸结构，从而改变蛋白结构，有助于稳定啤酒，防止冷浑浊。

So there's the haze proteins tend to be proline rich, and that particular enzyme goes in a wax up these proline moieties within a protein and that change in the the protein structure helps stabilize the beer, you know, helps prevent chill haze.

因此，它在防止冷浑浊方面非常非常有效。

So, that is very, very effective in chill haze prevention.

而Clerix的另一个应用是，由于这类蛋白质对乳糜泻患者有害，它有助于减少这些蛋白质——但这又是另一个话题了。

And then, the other application that the Clerix has is that because that type of protein is problematic with people with celiac disease, it it helps reduce and that that's a whole another topic.

关于这一点有很多不同的定义。

There's a lot of definitions with that.

但不管怎样，我认为这种酶值得提一下。

But anyhow, I think that's that's an enzyme worth mentioning.

是的。

Yeah.

对。

Yeah.

当然。

Absolutely.

而且说实话，我有个儿子患有乳糜泻，所以我非常关注这类问题。

And I I mean, it's obviously, I've got a son who's celiac, and I'm I care about these kinds of issues.

我见过的关于Clerix这种酶最有趣的用途，是即使在酿造浑浊IPA的酿酒师中，他们也使用这种酶来去除溶液中较大的蛋白质，以维持浑浊稳定性，而不是彻底清除所有浑浊，因为正如我们都知道的，那些更小的蛋白质-多酚复合物反而能形成稳定的浑浊。

The most interesting use that I've seen with, you know, Clerax, that enzyme, is even in hazy IPA brewers who are use still using that enzyme to drop these larger proteins out of solutions to to maintain hay stability rather than to remove all haze because, you know, as we all know, the smaller those, yeah, protein polyphenol complexes are, they're producing stable haze.

这些蛋白越小，就越能长时间稳定存在于溶液中，而不会析出。

The smaller those are, then the longer they will last and stay in solution rather coming out of solution.

史蒂夫，你们那边一直研究浑浊稳定性吧。

Steve, you guys, you know, have worked on some haze stability up there.

你们可是佛蒙特州浑浊IPA的核心地带。

You're in the Vermont hazy IPA central.

你们是怎么把这个应用到生产流程中的？

You know, how how does that work into your process?

确实如此。

Sure are.

我们实际上已经使用过它。

We've actually used it.

我们在拉格啤酒中使用它，只是为了控制冷浑浊，用量也比较低。

We use it in lager, you know, just to manage just to manage chill haze, you know, at a fairly modest rate.

我们在酒花风味突出的啤酒中也使用它，它实际上解决了我们酒花啤酒在罐装后出现的‘雪球’现象。

We use it in our our hop forward beers, and it was actually a solution to canned product snow globing that we saw in our hop forward products.

你知道吗，我们有一款经常生产的双倍IPA，突然间罐装产品就出现了问题。

You know, we we had this one double IPA that we make regularly and kind of out of nowhere can products.

所以，那些氧化的多酚在冷藏罐中结合，导致我们看到了雪球效应。

So, you know, those oxidized polyphenols were binding in cold stored cans, and we were just seeing the snow globing effect.

你知道，你倒出来喝的时候，一杯啤酒里简直糟糕透了。

You know, you'd pour the thing out, and it just it was just brutal in a pint glass.

而ClariX对我们来说简直就是一剂灵丹妙药。

And ClariX was a silver bullet for us there.

很长一段时间里，我们还生产一款减麸质啤酒。

And then for a long time, we had a gluten reduced beer as well.

因此，我们以更高的剂量重复使用这种酶，来降低麸质含量，以满足乳糜泻患者的需求。

So we're reusing the enzyme in the more aggressive end of the the dosing rate to to reduce gluten for people with celiac.

不像佛蒙特州那家啤酒厂，你总不能说‘直接从罐子喝’，这样就看不到雪球效应了。

Unlike that other brewery in Vermont, you can't just say drink from the cans so you don't have to see that that snow globe effect.

我们没那么幸运。

We're not so lucky.

不。

No.

我们没那么幸运。

We're not so lucky.

当然。

Sure.

当然。

Sure.

这简直是营销的杰作。

Marketing brilliance right there.

嘿。

Hey.

嘿。

Hey.

你知道的，把弱点变成优势。

You know, turn a weakness into a strength.

这真是太棒了。

That's that's fantastic.

关于神职人员还有什么别的吗？

Anything else about clerics?

然后我们可以转到一些其他的冷门发现上。

And then we can move on to some other other cold side findings.

好的。

Alright.

那我们就转到冷门发现上吧。

Well, then then let's move on to to cold side findings.

阿什顿，你能给我们简单介绍一下吗？

Why don't you give us a little bit of an overview, Ashton?

嗯，概述其实有点像历史话题，我很喜欢讲这个。

Well, an overview is is kind of a historical thing, which I I love talking about.

所以你知道，有段时间，酿酒师发现如果把鱼扔进啤酒里，它就能澄清啤酒。

So, you know, at some time, brewer figured out if you you chucked a fish into a beer, it clarified it.

然后，这自然带来了使用明胶澄清葡萄酒的做法，我至今仍好奇是谁第一个把鱼扔进酒桶或滤布里的。

And then that, of course, ushered in the the use of icing glass wines, which I still wonder who was the first brewer to chuck a fish into a cask or veil.

而且，它确实有效，但明胶的问题不在于它无效。

And, it worked, but the problem with icing glass is not that it doesn't work.

它可能是最有效的澄清方法。

It's probably the most effective finding out there.

但，你知道，素食主义的问题总是会出现。

But, the whole, you know, the vegan question always comes up.

人们厌倦了讨论明胶只在啤酒中保留下来之类的陈词滥调。

People got tired of talking about, well, icing glass has only survived in the beer, yada yada yada.

因此，像Biofine Clear这样的产品——即聚硅酸盐——变得非常非常流行。

So products like Biofine Clear, which is polysulicylic acid, have become really, really popular.

它们基本上取代了明胶之类的澄清剂。

They essentially replace findings like ICWAS.

我们有很多客户几乎完全使用这类澄清剂来实现澄清。

And we have a lot of customers that essentially use that type of finding as the exclusive way of clarifying.

那是一种化合物。

That that is one compound.

但正如史蒂夫之前提到的，有些酿酒师不喜欢在啤酒中使用硅胶产品，而Biofine Clear和其他白色产品都是多聚硅酸。

But as Steve mentioned earlier, you know, there's some brewers that don't like silica products and beer, and that is a polysilicic acid is what what BiofineClear and other white products are.

所以还有其他替代方案。

So there's upper output.

目前还有其他选择。

There's other options out there right now.

有来自蘑菇的产品，比如来自蘑菇的Kyber或Kaido San，可以用来澄清。

There's products from mushrooms, you know, like Kyber or Kaidosan from from mushrooms can be used to clarify.

像壳聚糖产品或Kaido San，很多人以为它们来自甲壳类动物，确实如此，但也有来自真菌的壳聚糖可以作为澄清剂使用。

Like, you know, chitin product or Kaido San products, a lot of times people think they're from shellfish, which they are, but there's also fungal derived chitin that can be used as a as a clarifier.

所以对我来说，这些是主要的澄清剂。

So those are the to me, those are the main clarifiers.

你可以使用来自鸡蛋、牛或鱼的胶原蛋白。

You can use collagen from, you know, eggs or or cows or or fish.

但由于素食主义者的顾虑，这些产品的流行程度已不如从前。

But because of the the the vegan concerns, those products are not as popular as they once were.

萨姆，罐装检测结果是如何融入你们的流程的？你们发现它们如何提升了整体生产？

Sam, how do you how do tank findings work their way into your process, and how have you found those to improve the overall production?

阿什顿刚刚证明了你可以把任何东西加进啤酒里。

And Ashton just proved you can put anything in beer.

对吧？

Right?

那是什么？

What was that?

鸡蛋、奶牛、蘑菇？

Eggs, cows, mushrooms?

鱼类。

Fishes.

你知道的？

You know?

没关系。

Doesn't matter.

它可能有一些应用场景。

It's probably got some application.

是的。

Yeah.

我们已经使用FIFON Clear很长时间了。

We we've used FIFON Clear for for quite a while.

有过一些非常不错的体验，我觉得它一直都很容易使用。

Had some very, you know, I I think it's always been very easy to use.

取得了很好的效果。

Good good success.

是的。

Yeah.

并不复杂。

Not really complicated.

通常，我们会把它在低温下加入发酵罐，然后转移出去。

Normally, add it, you know, cold in the fermenter, you know, transfer off.

是的。

Yeah.

一直都很成功。

Always had great success.

老实说，没什么好补充的了。

I don't honestly, not much to to add there.

我们几乎在所有产品中都用过它。

We've used it in pretty much everything.

我想不出有什么啤酒我们会不用它。

I can't really think of a beer that we would not.

是的。

Yeah.

这里有很多‘嗯’。

A lot of ums there.

没什么可补充的。

Not not much to add.

酷。

Cool.

史蒂夫，你呢？

Steve, how about you?

是的。

Yeah.

我同意这一点。

I would echo that.

我们几乎在所有啤酒中都使用过它。

We used it in pretty much everything.

直到我们引进离心机，大概是2017年或2018年左右。

Up until the point we got a centrifuge in it was probably 2017, '18, something like that.

我们开始分离大部分啤酒，但仍在我们的五阀研发系统中为几乎所有产品使用它。

We began separating most of our beers, but we still do use it on our five val r and d system for for pretty much everything.

使用起来非常简单。

Super easy to use.

你可以根据水质或输入条件的不同来调整剂量率。

Very know, you can vary your dose rate depending on how clear or what your inputs are.

它非常可靠。

That it's just it's all reliable.

是的。

Yeah.

对。

Yeah.

很棒的东西。

Good stuff.

好的，阿什顿。

Alright, Ashton.

我们已经聊了一段时间了。

We've been talking for a while here.

我们得把所有这些内容整合起来。

We kinda need to, like, pull it all together.

在我们结束之前，你觉得还有哪些其他的工艺辅助剂值得我们重点提一下吗？

Are there any of these other process aids that you think we should highlight, you know, before we we wrap things up?

我们已经讲了很多了。

We covered a lot.

你知道的。

You know?

我们真的涵盖了大量内容，正在想是否还有其他我们特别想提到的工艺辅助剂。

We we really we covered a lot of material, and we're trying to think if there's any other process aids out there that we really wanna head on.

但没有了，我觉得我们已经讲全了。

But, no, I I think we got it.

所以，阿什顿，除了这些工艺辅助剂带来的功能性、澄清性以及提升啤酒品质等效果之外。

So, Ashton, in addition to some of the, you know, kind of functional and, you know, clarifying and, you know, wart improvement and finished beer improvements that come along for these process aids.

酿酒师们还能获得一些额外的好处，你知道，我们所有酿酒师都面临的一个问题——虽然不那么吸引人——就是废水处理。通过酿造过程产生废弃物可能代价高昂，具体取决于当地废水处理设施的收费标准，但没有任何一家当地废水处理厂喜欢接收高排放量的啤酒厂废水。

There are also some additional benefits that brewers can count on that you know, one of the biggest things that we all face as brewers, again, not a sexy subject, but wastewater is and creating waste through through brewery processes is one that can be very expensive for brewers depending on what their local wastewater facility is, but there is not a local wastewater facility that likes taking waste from breweries with a high amount of effluent in it.

每个人都知道，你们必须达到某些较低的限值，才能将啤酒厂的废水排入市政污水处理系统。

Everyone you know, you you're going to need to meet certain lower limits in order to be able to, you know, push any wastewater out of a brewery into that kind of municipal water treatment system.

因此，我们所讨论的这些辅助手段还有一些额外的环境效益，它们可以减少——

And so some of these aids that we're talking about have some additional environmental benefit and that they can reduce yeah.

它们可以减少废水中悬浮物的含量，对吧？

They can, yeah, reduce the amount of in suspension, you know, effluent that's in this kind of wastewater?

谈谈这些手段如何改善啤酒厂的环境表现吧。

Talk a little bit about, you know, that can that can improve that environmental performance for a brewery.

是的。

Yeah.

我喜欢这个问题，杰米。

I I love that question, Jamie.

如果你闭上眼睛，想象整个工艺流程，思考原材料、麦芽、啤酒花、酵母和水的流动路径，从它们被加入啤酒的那一刻起，只要有任何一股流体被导向排水口，我们就该关注这些流向排水口的分支。

You know, if we had a if you close your eyes and visualize the process and think about the flow of raw materials, mullet hops, yeast water, from where they're added to beer, Anytime there's a a shoot up and an arrow off that stream that goes to drain let's think about those arrows that go to drain.

在糖化车间，我们有大量会排入下水道的废水。

So in the brewhouse, we have we have water ton liquid that would go down the drain.

其中含有提取物。

There's extract in that.

这种液体是一种丰富的资源。

That's that's a rich source of of that fluid.

如果我们能阻止它流入下水道，而是将其放入煮沸锅，那该多好。

If we could prevent that from going down the drain and put it in the brew kettle, wouldn't do that.

以纤维素酶如伊布康酶为例，这种酶有助于防止湿谷物变得松散，使更多液体被引导至煮沸锅，而不是直接流入下水道。

So with the example of of cellulase enzymes like ibleuconase, that that enzyme helps prevent sloppy wet grain and allows more of that liquid to be diverted to the brew kettle and less of it just kind of going down the drain.

如果我们讨论煮沸锅沉淀物的使用，当其得到适当优化时，一个优势是形成致密的沉淀物。

If we talk about the use of kettle findings, one advantage to kettle finding when they're properly optimized is compact trube.

如果我们有致密的沉淀物，就能尽可能多地将沉淀物转移到发酵罐中，减少大量高BOD废水流入下水道。

If we have compact trube, again, we're getting as much work out of the trube into the fermenter as possible, minimize the amount of work, which is a very, very high BOD waste stream from going down the drain.

然后我们来看旋沉槽底部的沉淀物。

Then we saw our whirlpool bottoms.

这些底部沉淀物可以被分流，通过管道输送到我们的旋风分离器中。

Well, those bottoms could be diverted, wide streamed and put into our spin crane.

如果我们进入发酵罐，会从发酵罐中产生两种主要的废水流。

If we go into the the fermenter, there's there's two main waste streams that come out of the fermenter.

发酵罐顶部的啤酒泡沫含有乙醇、麦汁浸出物和酵母。

There's beer foam off the top of the fermenter which had ethanol, it had extract, and it has yeast.

所以，这玩意儿，你知道的，Spinachol的BOD和乙醇，都是坏东西。

So it's, you know, Spinachol is BOD and ethanol, you know, all bad.

因此，如果我们使用消泡剂，就能帮助防止泡沫溢出。

So if we use an antifoam, we can help prevent foam overs.

然后，如果我们观察罐底，如果能实现固体的紧凑分离——尤其是像李提到的分离器那样——我们就能尽可能多地回收啤酒，同时将固体高度浓缩到分离器中；或者如果我们不使用分离器过滤，也能尽可能多地将那些重质固体——比如几乎不含啤酒的沉淀物——集中处理，这就有优势了。

And then if we look at the tank bottom, if we have, you know, compact removal of solids, especially with what Lee was talking about with the separator, we can get as much of the the beer off the fermenter as possible and really concentrate our solids into our separator or if we don't use separator filtration as much of that heavy solid as as, let's say, beer free sediment as possible, then that's an advantage.

我认为，如果我想最小化我的废水排放，这就会是核心思路。

And that's I think that would be the theme if I were looking to minimize my effluent streams.

这就是我如何想象整个流程的：尽可能把更多液体保留在啤酒中，同时通过这些工艺来减少损失。

That's how I would kind of visualize that flow of keeping as much of that liquid as we can in the beer as we possibly can, and these processing to help minimize those losses.

史蒂夫，你现在这个方法既提高了效率——让更多液体留在啤酒里而不随副产品流失，同时也减少了高浓度废液的产生。

Steve, so this you've got something now that's both good for efficiency in terms of having more liquid that's not leaving with some of your byproducts, but you're also creating less rich waste in the process.

佛蒙特州非常重视水资源的清洁和环境保护。

And Vermont's a state that definitely cares about clean water and taking care of everything.

你知道，这些工艺助剂是如何融入你们整体的环境责任计划的呢？

You know, how does how do, you know, some of these process agents find their way into your overall, like, environmental responsibility plan?

是的。

Yeah.

我的意思是，阿斯顿已经大致讲清楚了。

I mean, you know, Aston kinda outlined it.

你刚才其实已经总结得非常好。

You just sort of summed it up really, really nicely.

我的意思是，废水问题对所有啤酒厂来说都是一个热点话题。

I mean, I think wastewater is a hot button issue for breweries everywhere.

我们确实面临诸多限制，努力尽可能减少高浓度废液，减少排放物中的污染物意味着我们能将更多啤酒保留在发酵罐中，同时保持啤酒的高品质和一致性。

We definitely heal the constraints and try to reduce, you know, our our our high strength waste as much as we can, and and limiting the what's in the effluent means that we're keeping more beer in the tanks, and we're keeping our beer at a higher quality and consistency standard.

你知道的？

You know?

我们使用的冷端消泡剂，之前我没详细说明，它确实会让发酵罐变得大一些。

The cold side antifoam, which I didn't elaborate on earlier that we use, you know, it it makes tanks a little bit bigger.

所以，我们不仅保留了那些有助于泡沫的蛋白质，还把异构物留在了罐子里。

So not only we keeping some of those foam positive proteins in place, we're keeping those isos in the tank.

我们还保持了更好的酵母质量。

We're also just retaining better yeast quality.

你知道，我们想要保留的酵母都留在了罐子里。

You know, the yeast that we wanna keep stays in the tank.

当你深入研究这些酶的好处时，你会发现，一种环保的做法也能酿造出更优质、更稳定的啤酒。

So it's really interesting when you dig into some of the benefits of these enzymes because it turns out what is an environmentally friendly practice can also make better and more consistent beer.

因此，我们在理念上并不排斥酶的使用，也不会被所谓的‘工艺艺术’束缚，认为它会削弱啤酒的品质。

So we don't fear the enzymes conceptually and aren't certainly caught up in the the artistry of it all and think that it might take away from that.

我们非常欢迎这种做法。

We very much so embrace it.

事实上，经过这次对话后，我需要做更多研究，看看我们这里还需要引入多少种酶。

And in fact, after this conversation, I I got some more research to do to figure out how many more enzymes we need to embrace around here.

所以

So

天哪。

Oh my goodness.

萨姆，这些工艺助剂是如何影响你们的效率策略的呢？

Sam, how does the how do these, you know, process aids impact your approach to efficiency?

你们显然非常重视环境责任和效率，这一点毫无疑问。

You know, that's certainly a value that you all ascribe to in terms of environmental responsibility and efficiency.

是的。

Yeah.

毫无疑问。

No doubt.

对我来说，目前有几件事。

I mean, for us right now, a couple of things.

我想说的是投入。

I guess inputs.

对吧？

Right?

我们希望确保将更高比例的原料转化为成品。

We wanna make sure that we're getting a a higher percentage of our our inputs, you know, into the finished product.

如果我们因为酿造过程中出现失误——比如锅内沉淀物、明胶处理或旋涡速度控制不当——导致酿造效率低下，而通过改进这些环节能更环保地提取更多有效成分，那就有意义了。

If we're, you know, lagging on brewhouse efficiency because we're making mistakes with either, you know, kettle findings, gelatin or, you know, whirlpool speed styling that and ends up being more environmentally friendly because we're getting more out of the product.

对吧？

Right?

我们不需要增加原料投入，就能获得同样数量的成品糖浆。

We don't have to bump up those inputs to get the same amount of finished product of the sweetener.

这是第一点。

That's number one.

第二点，我和史蒂夫都觉得，我得做一些功课，特别是关于废水处理的问题。

Number two with, you know, along with Steve, I think I've got some some homework to do especially about effluent.

我们是一家正在成长的公司，目前正与环保服务团队合作，努力在这些方面做得更好。

You know, we're we're a growing company working with our environmental services right now on, you know, getting better about all that.

所以，是的，我不确定。

So, yeah, I don't know.

也许我需要向阿什顿多问一些问题，了解一下这些可能对我们有帮助的产品。

Maybe probably have more questions for Ashton and check into some of these products that might help us out there.

听起来我们只能明年或后年再跟进一次，看看还有什么新方法能融入你们的流程。

Well, sounds like we'll just have to do a follow-up next year or the year after and see what else works its way into your process.

阿什顿，最后还有什么建议要分享给大家吗？对于那些想开始在生产中使用这些工艺助剂、或想优化和掌握它们功能的酿酒师们？

Any any final words for everybody, Ashton, in terms of, you know, for brewers that are looking at how to get a a start in working some of some of these process aids into their production process or dialing them in, honing in some of some of their function?

正如史蒂夫刚才说的，使用这些工艺助剂并不会牺牲酿酒的艺术性。

Well, to kind of, you know, piggyback off what Steve said here, you know, the the use of these process aids doesn't it doesn't sacrifice the artistry of brewing.

这并不是坏事，而且很长一段时间以来，酿酒师们对这些产品都持怀疑态度。

It's not a bad thing and I think for the longest time, brewers had a skeptical eye on some of these products.

但如果你目前还没有使用工艺助剂，不妨问问自己：你的酒厂里有没有哪些方面希望改进，比如效率、易用性、熟成时间等等？然后可以尝试其中一种，看看是否适合你。

But I think the the way if you're not currently using process aids is to to ask yourself the question, are are there things in your brewery that you would like to maybe improve upon or the efficiency or or ease of use or aging times or whatever and just consider one of these to give it a try and to see if it's for you.

如果不合适，那也没关系。

If you don't like it then, you know, that's fine.

你可以回到你过去一直使用的酿造方式。

You can go back to, you know, brewing the other way you've been doing it.

但我真的认为这些产品不值得害怕，我们应该拥抱这些技术，因为啤酒酿造的经济形势不会变得更好。

But I I really think they they are the kind of products that shouldn't be feared and I think we should embrace the technologies as the economics of brewing are not gonna get any better.

我的意思是，这种成本控制，我认为如果我们能继续提供普通消费者负担得起的啤酒，那将会非常好。

I mean, this, you know, costarizing and I think it would be really nice if we could continue to bring beer that normal people can afford to consume.

我认为这些工艺助剂是控制生产成本的一种方式。

And I think the process aids are one way to help keep our COGS in check.

从这个角度来看，你通常是在权衡不同的价值：一方面，你可以重视传统酿造方式；另一方面，你也可以重视减少浪费、提高能源效率、降低资本投入和制造成本，从而减少碳足迹。

And in this sense, you know, you're talking about competing values often where some of these process aids, you know, you can value doing it the old fashioned way, but you can also value producing less waste and being more efficient about energy usage, about capital investment and less manufacturing, lowering your carbon footprint.

这些是不同类型的价值观，在人们做出相关决策时，都需要纳入整体考量。

You know, these are different kinds of values that all need to be weighed into the overall kind of picture as people are making decisions around these.

有时候，传统方式固然重要，但它并非唯一值得优先考虑的价值，酿酒师在思考这些问题时也应如此。

And sometimes the this is the old fashioned way as maybe, you know, it's not the only value that can be pushed to the foreground as as brewers are thinking about these things.

再简单一点，减少浪费确实很关键，这不仅关系到酒厂的财务收益，也关系到环境影响以及其他方方面面。

And then a simple one, yeah, reducing wasted output is, you know, just a just a key one, not just for what it means for the financial bottom line for the brewery, but also what it means environmentally speaking and, you know, and for for everything else.

有时候，对财务底线有利的事情，对环境底线也有利，对消费者同样有益——他们可以喝到这种啤酒，或许还能以更低的价格获得，或者企业能获得更有吸引力的利润空间，从而有能力照顾好员工，以及从酿造啤酒并获得合理利润中衍生出的其他一切。

And so sometimes what's good for the financial bottom line is also good for the environmental bottom line and it's also good for consumers who can drink that and potentially get it at either a better price or at a more attractive margin for that business that allows you to take care of your people and all the other things that come from making a nice making a reasonable profit on the beer that you brew.

总之，我认为这是结束这场讨论的绝佳时机。

And anyway, I think that's a great place to bring this to a close.

感谢RarBSG让我们能够不受干扰地为您带来这场对话。

Thank you to RarBSG for allowing us to bring you this conversation interruption free.

感谢史蒂夫·特里蒂斯、萨姆·佩卡拉罗、阿什顿·刘易斯，感谢你们与我进行这场讨论，与我们的所有听众分享你们的观点。

Steve Theritis, Sam Pecraro, Ashton Lewis, thank you all for having this discussion with me, with sharing your perspectives out there with all of our listeners.

这场对话非常精彩，我学到了很多，我相信我们所有人回去后都会重新开始思考，再做

It's been fascinating and I've learned a lot and I think all of us are gonna go back to the drawing board and do a

一些更深入的研究。

little bit more study.

谢谢你，杰米。

Thank you, Jamie.

精彩的简短讨论，史蒂夫和萨姆。

Great brief discussion, Steve and Sam.

当然。

Absolutely.

谢谢你，Jamie，邀请我参加。

Thank you, Jamie, for having me.

Ash和Sam，非常感谢你们的时间。

Ash and Sam, thanks so much for your time.

是的。

Yeah.

谢谢大家。

Thanks everybody.

很好。

Great.

干杯。

Cheers.

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