463：卢门公司的丹·布罗伊莱特分析数据，寻找最佳啤酒花

这绝对是我想推荐的做法。

That was something I definitely recommend.

但除此之外，

But then also just

这算是半手动的过程，不过你知道，那个罐装机还不错。

It was a semi manual process, but, you know, the the canner is good.

它是三头罐装机，所以你的产量没问题，两个人就能操作，一个人手动贴标签，把每个罐子放到小滚轮上，你知道的，两个人还是能搞定的。

It's three head canner and so your your throughput worked and with two people managing it with a manual labor labeler putting each can on the little roller, like, you know, like, it's you were still able to do that with two people.

这确实是个办法。

It's definitely a thing.

而且你知道，从其他想入行的人的角度来看，现在啤酒厂这么多，你必须在自己选择的风格上做到非常出色。

And then, you know, from other tips of someone trying to open, it's just also, we're in a day and age where there's so many breweries that you have to be really good at whatever style you choose.

我有一些朋友或者家庭酿酒客户会带着啤酒来找我，说：‘我真的想开一家啤酒厂。’

And I have other friends or homebrew customers who bring in beer and they're like, oh, I really wanna open a brewery.

我不会劝阻任何人，因为我的性格就是这样。

And I'm not going to discourage anyone because I'm that's not kinda how I am.

无论你做什么，都要确保自己在这方面做得出色，不要自欺欺人。

It's always, you can do whatever whatever you wanna do, but you just gotta make sure you're good at what you do and not be delusional.

所以，找对能给你所需反馈的人，但也要记住，就像我说的，现在美国有大约一万家啤酒厂。

So, you know, find the right people to give you the feedback that you need to to be successful, then but also make sure whatever like I said, there's, what, 10,000 some odd breweries right now in The United States.

由于选择太多，消费者的口味已经非常挑剔。

So the customer's palate is very refined because there's so many options.

所以如果你要进入这个行业，最好做出能脱颖而出、经得起这种品质考验的产品，因为我们现在每周都会收到邮件，说有啤酒厂在拍卖设备，因为这家要关门了，那家也要倒闭了。

So if you're gonna do it, you you better do something that stands out and stands up to that quality because we're at that point where I get an email every week from, there's a brew bid auction this week because this place is closing or that place.

这确实让人难过，因为有人的梦想破灭了，但这也是商业的现实。

And and that's, you know, that's sad because someone's dream is dying, but at the same time that's just the reality of business.

所以你必须面对它。

So you have to you have to deal with it.

因此，我认为，如果你决定要干，就要确保你生产的产品有特色，能在品质上让你与众不同。

So I think as long as if you're gonna go for it, just make sure what you're making stands out and that it it stands you apart from a quality standpoint.

是的。

Yeah.

我认为，无论选择哪种模式，都取决于你所处的环境和具体条件。

And I think that, again, whatever mode you choose depends on where you are and what those circumstances are.

如果你身处一个竞争激烈的都市环境，有其他啤酒厂可供选择，那么我们经常看到，在这种具有挑战性的啤酒厂环境中，不是顾客首选或次选的啤酒厂受到的冲击最大。

If you are in an urban environment where there's a competitive brewery, you know, there's other choices of breweries, then, you know, what we are seeing more often in this kind of challenging brewery environment is the breweries that aren't people's first or second choice are getting hit the hardest.

是的。

Yeah.

那么，你如何成为顾客的首选或次选呢？

And so how do you become that first or second choice?

如果你是镇上唯一的啤酒厂，那你的情况就不同，对吧？

You know, if you're the only brewery in town, it's a different mode for you, right?

直到另一家啤酒厂出现之前都是这样。

You know, until there's another one.

你需要服务所有人，但当你身处像丹佛这样竞争激烈的城市时，情况就不同了——丹佛市内就有75家啤酒厂。

You do need to serve everybody and yet then you get into a competitive city like Denver, where we're in, there's 75 breweries in the city of Denver.

那么，你如何变得有意义、有价值，让顾客一次又一次地选择你，而不是不断换地方、尝试各种不同的啤酒呢？

Like how do you become meaningful and matter and get people to continue to come out to you over and over again, you know, rather than just bouncing around and trying a bunch of different things?

因此，你们再次通过专注于这种浑浊IPA风格实现了这一点，目标不仅仅是酿造出能在国家和国际层面获奖、引人注目、产生影响的啤酒。

And so you've done that again by focusing deeply on this style of hazy IPA with this goal of and not just a goal of, of making award winning, medal winning, noteworthy, moving the needle at a national and international level versions of these beers.

那么，我们从你开始商业酿造说起吧。

So why don't we go through, you know, from you start commercial commercially brewing.

跟你聊聊你是如何打磨出浑浊IPA的酿造方法的，在商业世界中你发现了什么，这些发现如何帮助你实现了当初为Lumen打造浑浊IPA的愿景？

Talk to me about how you dialed in your approach to hazy IPA, what you discovered now in this commercial world, what that allowed you to do with brewing this vision that you had for hazy IPA that was gonna be that was gonna reflect Lumen?

是的。

Yeah.

我认为其中最重要的一点是，这就像一份清单：首先需要视觉吸引力。

I think one of the the main things is trying to it's it's sort of a checklist of you need the first is the visual appeal.

那么，你如何酿造出你想要的外观？比如浑浊IPA，要呈现浅色。

So how do you make a beer that looks the way you want it to look, you know, a hazy IPA, pale color.

我们酿造的一些啤酒就是如此。

Some of some of the ones we make.

首先从时间维度和人们体验它的方式来看。

First in terms of time and the way that somebody, you know, has experienced it.

不是的。

Not Yes.

对。

Yeah.

不是最首要的。

Not first in terms of the most single No.

重要。

Important.

是的。

Yeah.

对。

Yeah.

如果有人给你倒了一杯啤酒，你第一眼看到的，就是它的外观。

We're going if if someone pours you a glass of beer, the first thing you're doing, you see it.

我都能想象到有位酿酒师在那里。

I could just see a brewer out there.

最重要的不是它的外观，你知道吗？

It's not the most important thing is not how it looks, you know?

不不，我们不是在谈那个。

Like, no no, we're not talking about that.

确实不是。

It's definitely not.

而且实际上，当我们酿造啤酒时，有些情况会发生，外观可能会略有不同。

And and that actually happens where we have beers where things happen and it might look slightly different.

我们知道，某些啤酒花会让浑浊IPA看起来不一样。

We've we've learned that, you know, certain hops make a hazy IPA look different.

比如，如果你用大量Mosaic啤酒花进行干投，它的外观和完全用新西兰啤酒花干投的啤酒会不一样。

Like if you're dry hopping a beer heavily with Mosaic, it's not gonna look the same as if you're dry hopping a beer fully with New Zealand hops.

这些正是人们容易纠结于视觉上的地方，但风味却非常棒。

And those are things where the visual people get stuck on, but the flavor is fantastic.

所以，我们需要超越这一点。

So there is getting past that.

然后是香气，比如

And then aroma like

你所说的使用不同啤酒花带来的视觉差异具体是指什么？

What do you mean by what is that kind of visual difference with in terms of hops that you use?

根据我们的经验，如果用100%的Mosaic啤酒花进行干投酿造浑浊IPA，它的浑浊度会非常轻。

From our experience, if you were to do 100% mosaic dry hopped hazy IPA, it would have a very light haze.

所以，你知道，它不会呈现出那种乳白色、奶油状、浅金色或淡黄色的外观。

So, you know, it's not that milky, creamy, light golden, pale yellow look.

它的颜色可能稍微深一些。

It is a it's a beer that's probably slightly darker in color.

如果你真的拿手电筒照过去，几乎能透过它看清楚。

You can almost see through it if you really you know, if you held a flashlight up to it.

但它的香气非常棒，Mosaic是一种很棒的啤酒花，只是人们总在这些细节上纠结，不管是未开封的酒还是Instagram上的照片。

But the aroma is fantastic and Mosaic's a great hop, but people just get stuck on these things whether it's untapped or Instagram.

有那些Hays追随者、Hays男孩，还有各种人，都死死盯着这些表象，对错与否，其实都不重要。

You have the Hays chasers and the Hays boys and all these these people that get stuck on those things and right or wrong, doesn't matter.

这只不过是卖啤酒和酿啤酒而已。

It's just selling beer and making beer.

如果不是那种乳白色、尽可能浅淡的颜色，那就不值得去追逐炒作。

It's not milky and and the palest that it can possibly be, then it's certainly not worth hype chasing.

是的。

Yeah.

而我们今天能酿出的啤酒，完全符合这些标准，比如10%的三倍IPA联名款，你就算用一千流明的手电筒也照不透它。

And the beer we can today is checks all those boxes with 10% triple IPA collab that you couldn't see through it with a, you know, thousand lumen flashlight.

所以它非常浓稠。

So it's it's it's thick.

但是

But

我明白你的意思。

I see what you did there.

我根本没打算那样说。

I didn't even mean to.

那只是因为我们的手电筒就是这样。

That that just happened because that's what our flashlight is.

但没错，所以当你追求那种效果时，你会有视觉、香气，这其实也像是GABF评审时的检查清单，他们会关注这些指标，我们也可以聊聊这个。

But yeah, so so going for that, you know, you have your visual, you have your aroma, and it's sort of like a GABF checklist too of of what the judges go through when you get those notes which we can talk about that as well.

但之后，显然就全看风味了。

But then obviously after that, it's all about the flavor.

无论是啤酒的实际酒体和口感、苦味、最终比重或残余甜度，还是收尾时的收敛感或缺乏收敛感，这些都是在构建满足不同人群不同需求的配方。我们目前正在酿造参加世界啤酒杯的啤酒，它们和我想在Instagram的Top Drops上发布的啤酒会非常不同。

So whether it's the actual body and mouthfeel of the beer to the bitterness to the, you know, final gravity or residual sweetness and those type of things and then the finish with stringency or lack thereof, it's building recipes that check different boxes for different people and the beers we're brewing our World Beer Cup beers right now and those will be much different than a beer that I want to make on Top Drops on Instagram.

因为受众完全不同。关键是，我们并不只酿一种浑浊IPA。

They're just a different audience And the thing is about it, we don't brew one type of hazy IPA.

这可不是Lumen浑浊IPA。

This is not the Lumen hazy IPA.

我们会根据心情或目标酿造不同的风格，浑浊IPA内部有多个细分领域，不只是酒精度的问题，还有各种不同的子类别和风格，我们都会酿造。我们可以深入聊聊，因为我有一整叠配方单，虽然大体思路相同，但细节差异非常大。

We brew different depending on our mood or what we're going for, there's these different segments within hazy IPA and it's not just ABV, there's that too, but just different segments and different styles with sub styles within the style and we brew all those and and we can get into that because I have a whole stack of recipe sheets and you know, while the the general idea is the same, the the sub ideas are very different.

丹，你刚刚正好引出了我一直想聊的话题，我可不会放过这个机会。

Dan, you have just set me up for a topic that I have wanted to talk about so much, and so I'm not gonna let this one go.

我们马上要深入聊聊浑浊IPA的子风格？

We are going to get into wait a second, sub styles of hazy IPA?

等等。

Wait.

你是说，Untappd上那些打4.6分的爱好者，和世界啤酒杯评委们颁金奖的标准，居然完全不同？

You're talking about there's a difference between what the dudes on untapped are checking in with four point sixes versus what World Beer Cup judges are giving gold medals?

真不可思议，居然能有这么广泛的差异存在，而你们作为酿酒厂，竟然不只把浑浊IPA当成一种单一的东西，而是能做出适合不同人群的多种版本。

Crazy that all of this kind of breadth could exist out there and that you as a brewery could maybe not just approach it as a singular kind of thing with only one style, but have different things that fit different people.

你们有一款浑浊IPA，是给那些下班后想来喝两杯甚至三杯的人准备的；同时也有另一款浑浊IPA，是让人来喝四盎司的品鉴装，一口气尝四款，然后在Untappd上打卡炫耀给朋友看的——这些都能同时存在。

You've got a hazy IPA for that guy that wants to come in here and drink two or three after hard day of work, and you've got a hazy IPA that someone's gonna wanna come in and drink a four ounce taster of four of them in order to check them all in on untapped and impress their friends because all of those things can exist.

你猜怎么着？

And guess what?

这根本没什么不对。

There's nothing wrong with that.

总之，我要深入探讨一下这些子风格，以及你们在思考浑浊IPA时所涉及的那些不同流派。

Anyway, I'm gonna dig into what these kind of substyles are and some of these kind of schools of hazy IPA that, you know, as you guys think about them.

在我们深入之前，泵是任何酿造设备的关键组成部分，从家庭酿造到微型酿造，再到专业酿造级别，无论是麦芽浆循环、麦汁转移还是清洁过程都离不开泵。

Before we do that, pumps are critical to any brewing setup from home brewing through nano brewing, and of course at the pro level from mash recirculation to wart transfer and even for cleaning.

一台高质量的泵是每次酿造日的关键部件。

A quality pump is key part of every brew day.

SS Brewtech的不锈钢酿造泵专为应对最混乱的酿造日而设计，同时价格亲民，适合家庭酿酒者使用。

The SS brew pump from SS Brewtech is engineered to tackle even the messiest brew days and do it at a scale home brewers can afford.

它具备IP55级防水性能，配备易于使用的DIN接口，可360度旋转，流量最高可达每分钟11加仑。

Featuring an IP 55 water resistance rating and easy to use DIN head with 360 degree rotation and a flow rate of up to 11 gallons per minute.

它拥有强大的动力，确保你的酿造日顺利进行。

It has the power to keep your brew day moving.

访问www.ssbrewtech.com/pump，了解更多关于SS酿造泵如何提升你的家庭酿酒设备的信息。

Visit www.ssbrewtech.com/pump to learn more about how the SS brew pump can upgrade your home brewery.

现在已开售2024年8月在华盛顿州雅基马谷（啤酒花之乡）举行的年度精酿啤酒与酿造师 Retreat 的门票。

And tickets are on sale now for the annual craft beer and brewing brewers retreat August in Hop Country, Yakima Valley, Washington.

没有任何其他体验能比得上这场幻想般的家庭酿酒营——你将在世界一些最具启发性的酿酒厂的带领下，以小组形式亲自酿造。

There is nothing like this fantasy homebrew camp experience as you brew in small groups led by some of the most inspiring breweries in the world.

像俄罗斯河酒厂的维尼和娜塔莉、刹车侧的本、Monkish的亨利和阿德里安娜、北公园的凯尔西、Grand Fir的惠特尼、劳森最佳酒厂的肖恩等人。

Folks like Vinnie and Natalie of Russian River, Ben from Brake Side, Henry and Adriana of Monkish, Kelsey from North Park, Whitney from Grand Fir, Sean from Lawson's Finest, more.

今年，我们将在Bailbreaker酒厂酿造啤酒。

This year, we'll be brewing under the binds at Bailbreaker.

这一定是一次难忘的体验。

It's sure to be an unforgettable experience.

是的。

Yeah.

来和我一起酿酒吧。

Come brew with me.

来和我们所有人一起酿酒吧。

Come brew with all of us.

门票现已开售，正在迅速售罄，前往brewersretreat.com购买。

Tickets are on sale now going fast at brewersretreat.com.

好了，丹。

Alright, Dan.

我们得谈谈这个，因为我喜欢这个观点：对于你来说，浑浊IPA并不仅仅有一种模式。

Let's we we've gotta talk about this because I love this idea that there's not just one model of hazy IPA for you.

事实上，对你而言，存在着许多不同的类型。

In fact, you know, for you, there's like a lot of different models.

还有更易饮的风格。

There are more sessionable approaches.

还有一些更干净、更紧致的酒花表现的浑浊IPA，明显更面向普通精酿爱好者。

There are kind of like cleaner and tighter hop expressions in hazy IPA that are definitely geared towards just a general craft drinker.

也许有些使用的是美国酒花，但并不一定那么果味浓郁。

You know, maybe some, you know, kind of, you know, American hops that that don't aren't necessarily quite as like fruit forward.

然后就是那些饱和度极高、极其浓烈厚重的啤酒，它们会出现在交易市场上——但我不愿替你说话。

And then there is just the these saturated, just monstrously big and thick, you know, kinds of beers that that are gonna get out there and get out there in the trading But but let me not put words into your mouth.

当你想到浑浊IPA的一些细分领域、层级和子风格时，它们在你心中是如何划分的？

When you guy when you think about some of the like lanes and tiers and substyles of of hazy IPA, how how do they line up in your mind?

是的。

Yeah.

它们大致可以分为两种类型。

They they sort of break down two different ways.

更明显的一种是酒精度。

The more obvious one is ABV.

所以，你有低酒精度的啤酒。

So, you know, you have your sessions.

我觉得我们现在正处在一个拥有大量受众的阶段。

And I feel like we're we're to that time now where there's a large audience.

有很多人已经不再喝酒了，而是选择其他方式来达到类似的效果。

There's a lot of people who just don't drink anymore and pursue other other ways to get there, if you will.

但与此同时，我

But at the same I

不知道你在说什么。

don't know what you're talking

我知道。

about I know.

我们在内布拉斯加，最好别谈这个。

We were in Nebraska, we better not talk about it.

他们可能会冲进大门。

They might bust in the door.

我在科罗拉多。

I'm in Colorado.

我不确定，我觉得所谓的大麻和啤酒之争是不是真的那么重要。

I don't know I don't know if I find that the whole like, you know, cannabis versus beer thing is a giant thing.

我觉得从整体健康和养生的角度来看，比如我，我正在变老。

I think people are in a general health and wellness standpoint like, I mean, like me, I I'm getting older.

我喝酒不像十年前那么多了。

I don't drink as much as I did ten years ago.

你知道，我现在五十多岁了，但我还是喜欢啤酒。

Like, you know, I'm I'm over 50 now and, you know, I still love beer.

我只是不像以前那样喝那么多罢了。

I just, you know, just not drinking the same kind of quantity that I once did.

是的

Yeah.

这很可能是一个明智且公平且受欢迎的选择。

And that's probably a good choice and also fair and and popular.

所以，当你选择低酒精度的啤酒时，并不需要牺牲风味。

So so there's you don't have to have this sacrifice of flavor when it comes to a lower ABV beer.

因为如果你做得对，完全可以把所有风味都浓缩进去。

Because if you do it right, you you can pack all that flavor in there.

我们从GABF和世界啤酒杯的评语中学到的一点是，很多人说这些评语要打点折扣来看，但我们关注的是其中的共性——比如，可能一位评委这么说，下一位评委的评语却完全相反。

And one of the things we learned from GABF and World Beer Cup from the notes, and a lot of people, you know, they they say take the notes with a grain of salt, but what we do is look for through lines and it's like, alright, there might be one judge says this and the next judge note says the exact opposite.

明白了。

Alright.

我们会忽略那些不一致的评价。

We're gonna disregard that.

但如果你多次得到相似的反馈，这就是为什么我们通常会提交六到七款几乎相同风格的啤酒。

But if you get multiple that's why we also enter six to seven beers of almost the same style.

顺便说一下，刚开始的时候我并不知道世界啤酒杯是这样的。

So for World Beer Cup, by the way, I didn't know this when I started.

事情就这么发生了。

It just happened.

我们酿造的是啤酒花风味的啤酒。

We make hoppy beer.

所以去年我们向GABF提交了六款啤酒，通过提交六款风格相近的啤酒，反馈的评语变得一致，我们这才意识到我们的啤酒在酵母上放置时间太长了。

So we entered six beers into GABF last year, and by entering six beers of similar style, the notes come back similar, and we realized that we were letting our beer sit on yeast too long.

于是我们发现，评语中那些术语其实都指向同一个问题。

So it was like, oh, these these notes, like these terms that they're giving us on the notes all come back to that.

所以我们彻底改变了发酵方式，包括何时降低温度、何时撇除酵母等等。

So we totally changed how we how we were doing our fermentation and when we were lowering you know, dropping yeast and all that.

我们开始这么做。

Started doing that.

自从这样做了之后，那些评语就完全消失了。

Everything changed as far as those notes going away.

然后时间快进一年到世界啤酒杯，我们的评语完全不同了。

And then fast forward a year for World Beer Cup, we the notes are totally different.

我们赢得了两枚奖牌，评语也不同了，但更多是围绕着涩味。

We win two medals, and there's a different set of notes, but they're more based around astringency.

所以，涩味是一种多酚类特征，主要来自干投酒花。

So it's like, well, astringency is, you know, more of a polyphenolic character that we're getting from the dry hop.

我们该如何改变这一点？

How do we change that?

正是在这个时候，我们开始推出这些低酒精度的啤酒，因为如果你在干投酒花时每桶超过四磅，又不加注意，3.2%酒精度的啤酒中涩味会非常突出，而这很大程度上与时间和温度有关。

And that's where these smaller beers started to come about because astringency is very prevalent in a 3.2% beer if you're not careful when you're dry hopping at over four pounds per barrel, and a lot of that comes from time and temperature.

所以我们现在讨论的这个子类——浑浊IPA，指的是风味浓郁但适口性好的低度浑浊啤酒。

So with the subsect we're talking about now of hazy IPA, we're talking about sessionable hazies that are packed with flavor.

我们通常在周四和周一进行灌装。

And one of the things we package on Thursdays, and we also package on Mondays.

过去我们通常在周五或周六进行干投酒花。

So we used to dry hop on like a Friday or Saturday.

我们当时在温暖的环境下进行干投啤酒花，只穿着衬衫，温度70度，然后搅动酒罐，周日再来搅动一次。

We were dry hopping warm with just jackets off, 70 degrees, then rousing the tank, coming in Sunday, rousing the tank again.

所以周六下午干投啤酒花后，再搅动一下。

So a Saturday afternoon dry hop, rouse.

周日再搅动一次，然后降温冷却酒罐。

Sunday, rouse, and then crash the tank.

接着让啤酒在低温下与酒花接触，直到周四早上灌装。

And then leaving the beer on those hops cold until Thursday morning packaging.

我当时想，天啊，我们得到了这些风味，我能尝出来，但我并不讨厌这种青草味。

And I thought, man, we're getting these notes like I can taste it, but I don't mind the green green flavor.

是的。

Sure.

是的。

Sure.

但如果你的目标是获奖，而你的啤酒里有青草味，那你是走不远的。

But if you're trying to win a medal and you have green in your beer, you're not getting very far.

所以我做了一些研究，阅读资料，听更多播客，发现这种涩味来自于啤酒与酒花接触时间过长、温度过高导致的多酚失衡。

So I was, you know, doing a little research, reading up, listening to more podcasts and finding out like, alright, this astringency is coming from a off balance of polyphenolic issues that are coming from the beer sitting on hops too long and also maybe too warm.

于是我们开始在周五进行干投酒花，但周一就灌装，并且干投时温度更低，只让啤酒在酒花上停留较短时间——我们使用的是单罐系统，不会把酒转移到其他罐中。

So then we started dry hopping beers on Friday, but packaging Monday, and we're dry hopping a little bit colder, only letting them sit on the hops and we do unit tanks, so we're not moving things to break tanks.

这些酒通常是在周五下午进行干投的。

Like these are it gets dry hopped on a Friday afternoon.

我们会用二氧化碳，通过转移臂以30 psi的压力对啤酒搅拌大约一分钟。

We're rousing that beer once with c o two for about a minute at 30 psi through the racking arm.

然后周六我来的时候，会给啤酒施加12 psi的顶压，将其冷却至一半，接着再次回来，继续冷却至38华氏度。

And then Saturday, I'm coming in putting about 12 psi of head pressure on that beer and crashing it halfway down, then coming in again, crashing it the rest of the way to 38 degrees.

我们不会冷却得太低，因为那样会导致所有物质都沉淀下来。

We don't crash too cold because they don't want everything to fall out.

然后在周日进行碳酸化，周一早上灌装。

And then carbonating on a Sunday, packaging on Monday morning.

所以对于低酒精度的啤酒，我们把酒花接触时间缩短了两到三天。

So it was like taking multiple days, like two, three days off of the contact time on the lower ABV beers.

突然间，我们周一装罐的啤酒，周一下午就能喝了。

And all of a sudden, the beers we were canning on Monday, we could drink Monday afternoon.

简直太惊人了。

It was like, oh, wow.

这些啤酒里那种涩味完全消失了。

These there is none of that that astringency.

全都消失了，只剩下纯粹的酒花风味，口感干净清爽。

It's all gone, and it's just all hop forward like clean clean beer.

我们开始对低酒精度的啤酒也采用这种方法。

And that's what we started doing with the lower ABV stuff.

这在很大程度上改变了局面，

So that was a game changer as far

因为即使到现在，当我们谈论浑浊IPA时，时间因素依然至关重要。

as that the still holds on then all the way, you know, because time when we were talking about hazy IPA in particular, you know, is such a factor.

尤其是对于酒花风味的啤酒和比赛品评来说，你考虑的从来不是装罐当天就能喝的啤酒，而是评委在四周到六周后品尝的啤酒。如果你运气好，你得想办法让啤酒在那个品评时间段达到最佳状态，这本身也是一个挑战。

And, you know, especially with hoppy beer and competition judging, you're not always thinking about the beer that you can drink the day that you're done canning it, you're thinking about the beer that a judge is going to drink four to six weeks after that point, you know, if you're lucky and you know, and you like figuring out how to get it to peak then, you know, in that kind of judging timeframe, you know, is also a challenge.

是的

Yeah.

我觉得这完全正确。

And I I think that's totally spot on.

而且我觉得，不知为何，很多那种涩味似乎就是消不掉。

And I think one of the things is for some reason, a lot of that astringency doesn't seem to leave.

如果这些啤酒花被困在罐子里，它们甚至可能释放出更多多酚带来的苦涩感。

If those hops are trapped in the can, they might even be giving off more of that polyphenolic burn.

更不用说，根据倒酒的方式，他们通常会问你：‘你希望我们摇晃一下罐子，还是安静地倒？’

Not to mention depending on how they pour it, they, you know, they ask you, do you want us to rouse the can or pour it still quiet?

但能控制的范围毕竟有限，我们发现，一方面减少罐子里的这种物质，另一方面缩短与大量干投啤酒花的接触时间也很重要，而且还要稍微降低温度。

But there's only so much to that that's under control, and we found that just getting less of that into the cans is one thing, but also just having having less contact time on that giant dry hop load is important, and then also doing it slightly colder.

所以我们不是在70度下进行，而是在64度下操作。

So rather than do it at 70 degrees, we're doing that at 64.

这也有助于酵母回收，但那就是另一个话题了。

It also helps with the yeast harvest, but that's another story.

而且我们发现，当他们评判时，比如三十天后达到峰值，并不是问题所在。

And and we're not finding that the peak of when they judge it let's say they judge it thirty days later is part of the issue.

这更像是一个充氧和包装的较量，正如很多人所说的那样。

It's more like that's more of an oxygenation packaging contest as you as a lot of people say.

当然。

Sure.

当然。

Sure.

所以这是在控制这一方面。

So it's controlling that aspect of it.

因此，我们所有的罐装啤酒都会送交比赛，使用我们的灌装线，但我彻底重新设置了灌装线的吹扫时间，正在观察，比如填充头一号可能是我们最终选择的，诸如此类的事情。

So we're very we we do submit all of our cans for competition off of our canning line, but I totally reset the canning line to different purge times and we're watching, you know, fill head one might be the one we go with and and those type of things.

但对于低酒精度、易饮的啤酒来说，这正是我们的策略，之后我们再深入讨论麦芽配方等细节。

But as far as a low ABV sessionable beer, that's kind of the strategy, and then we can get into the to the malt bill and all that stuff.

是的。

Yeah.

我对这一点很好奇。

I'm curious about that.

比如，如果你在一款3.2%左右的浑浊IPA里每桶加四磅酒花，这感觉很容易失衡。

Like, you know, you if you're dropping four pounds per barrel into a three point something percent hazy IPA, like that feels like that could get out of whack and out of balance really fast.

不过，正如你刚才提到的，我认为这种低温短时接触的方法确实有道理，它能让你更充分地萃取想要的优质酒花风味，同时避免带出一些不想要的、同样强烈的负面酒花特质。

Although, as you now mentioned it, I think there is something to this idea of colder, shorter contact that lets you drive more intensity in the desirable hop flavors that you want without picking up some of the the same kind of intensity out of some of the less desirable hop characters that you don't want in there.

所以关键在于保持这种平衡，把音量只调高你真正想突出的那些风味，避免掺入那些会分散注意力的背景杂音，这一点非常重要。

So there is something to that where I think, you know, keeping that balance in the right place and like turning up the volume just on the right notes that you want, you know, without getting picking also picking up some of that background noise that's gonna be distracting can be pretty important there.

但总的来说，这类啤酒如果缺乏饱满的酒体，很容易显得单薄；同时，我们也不希望有太多残糖，因为我们讨论的啤酒是要接受其他酿酒师评判的，它们不能仅仅为了增加酒体感而变得甜腻。

But in general, it's also easy in this kind of beer if it doesn't have a full mouthfeel to feel like like and also, you know, some residual sweetness but not too much because we're also still talking about beers that are gonna be judged by other brewers and you know, those beers can't be sweet just to build some idea body.

那么，你是如何在这些低酒精度啤酒中构建足够的酒体，来支撑如此强烈的酒花风味呢？

So how do you how do you build heft in these small beers that can support that kind of intense hop flavor?

是的。

Yeah.

我现在正看着我们3.2%浑浊啤酒Puff的酿造配方表。

So I'm looking at a brew sheet right now for puff, our 3.2% hazy.

人们似乎非常喜欢这款酒。

People seem to to love it.

我们这里也很喜欢。

We love it here.

这款酒的基麦只占40%。

And that beer is only 40% base malt.

所以在五桶的批次中，我们用两袋甘马尼亚麦芽、两袋燕麦片和半袋麦芽渣，仅此而已。

So on a five barrel batch, it's two bags of gambrinas pills, two bags of flaked oats, and a half a bag of chit and that's it.

所以基麦只占40%。

So it's 40% base malt.

人们总会问，你们是怎么过滤这款酒的？你们用过生物葡萄糖酶或者葡萄糖清除剂这类产品吗？

And people are like, how do you do you know, how are you running that beer off and don't we we do use bio gluconase or gluco buster or any of those products.

我们从不用米糠，只在世涛啤酒里用。

We don't use rice hulls, only in stouts.

我们过去只在米糠上出过问题，所以基本避开了它，我们可以聊聊

We've only had issues with rice hulls so we've we've kind of avoided that and we we can talk about

关于米壳的问题？

Issues with rice hulls?

嗯，是这样的。

Well, it we yeah.

主要是因为它们并没有给我们带来什么好处。

It's it's just that it's not necessarily that they're we found that they don't give us anything.

是的。

Yeah.

所以我们干脆就不用了。

So we just avoid using it.

我们可以聊聊我们在酿造大麦芽啤酒时如何使用辛普森的发芽燕麦，它们的胚芽还是完整的。

We can get into kinda how we use Simpson's malted oats that have the hole still intact on the bigger beers.

哦，

Oh,

对。

yeah.

这款啤酒里没有这个成分。

That's not in this particular beer.

正如我所说，40%的基础麦芽，40%的燕麦片，还有大约10%的燕麦碎。

Like I said, 40% base malt, 40% flaked oats, and about a 10% chip.

这就是我们33.2%浑浊啤酒的麦芽配方。

So that's the grist bill on our 33.2% hazy.

另一点是我们100%使用反渗透水。

The other thing is we're a 100% RO.

奥马哈的水不适合酿酒。

Omaha water is not conducive for brewing.

所以我们希望将氯化物浓度控制在180ppm左右。

So we're we're looking for around a 180 PPM of chloride.

我们通过添加氯化钙来提升浓度，再直接加入食用盐（NaCl）。

We build that up through calcium chloride and then just straight pickling or table salt, NaCl.

我们的钠含量大约在40左右。

And then our so so our sodium levels are around 40.

钙含量大约为60，而这款啤酒中的硫酸盐为零。

Calcium's around 60, and then our sulfates are zero on that beer.

我们没有添加任何石膏。

We're putting zero gypsum.

完全使用氯化钠和氯化钙。

It is straight NaCl and calcium chloride.

就这样。

And that's it.

无论哪种啤酒，我们都目标将pH值控制在5.2，并通过这些盐类与磷酸的组合来实现。

We we do target a 5.2 pH on every beer no matter what, and we're hitting that through a combination of those salts and then phosphoric acid.

这是糖化pH值吗？

And that's a mash pH?

糖化pH值。

A mash pH.

是的。

Yep.

是的

Yep.

所以我们使用75%的BSG上销售的磷酸，直接加入糖化过程。

So we're using 75% whatever they sell on BSG of phosphoric acid and that's going in the mash.

我们在洗糟和煮沸阶段完全不添加任何盐类。

We're not adding any salts whatsoever to the sparge, the kettle.

所有盐类都只加在糖化阶段。

It's all going in the mash.

我们目标是让头道麦汁的pH值达到5.2。

And and then we're shooting for a first run or a first running's pH of 5.2.

β-葡聚糖酶就是让这个疯狂的糖化过程顺利运行的关键吗？

And the beta glu gluconase enzyme is the thing that makes this crazy mash work for you?

自从我们开始使用它以来，托老天的福，我们再也没有遇到任何问题。

Since we started using that, knock on wood, we've had zero issues.

像所有麦汁排放一样，我们从过滤槽或糖化锅以每分钟约2.5加仑的速度将麦汁排入煮沸锅，整个过程都非常顺畅。

Like all runoffs are we run everything off at about two and a half gallons per minute from the lauter tun or from the kettle mash tun to the kettle, and it keeps everything smooth.

所以在糖化快结束时，我们会加入大约60毫升的Glucobuster，让它在糖化的最后十五分钟里搅拌混合。

So near the end of our mash, we'll throw in about 60 milliliters of Glucobuster and let it, you know, for the last fifteen minutes of the mash stir in and mix in.

另一点是我们的糖化温度非常高。

And the other thing is our mash temp is really high.

这款3.2%的啤酒，糖化温度是158华氏度。

It's a 158 degrees on that 3.2% beer.

所以

So

是的

Yeah.

我们的下料水温度大约在170华氏度。

So our strike water is around a 170.

所以我们糖化温度保持在155华氏度，显然这是高蛋白麦芽。

So we're mashing at one fifty five, obviously a high protein grist.

我们在这里酿造的每一种啤酒，都会进行90分钟的煮沸，无论什么类型。

We do a ninety minute boil on every beer we brew here no matter what.

是的。

Yeah.

每一种啤酒都要煮九十分钟。

Every single beer is ninety minutes.

高氯化钙含量

High calcium chloride

只是为了增加你的能源成本。

Just to increase your energy costs.

是的。

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

因为我们用的是电煮锅，所以我特别乐意多给OPPD付钱，尤其是这栋老建筑完全没有隔热层。

Because we have an electric brew kettle, so I love paying OPPD even more money than necessary, especially with no insulation in this old building.

我就喜欢把这么多钱花在他们身上。

I just I love spending all that money to them.

这很棒。

It's great.

但不行。

But no.

为什么是九十分钟？

Why why ninety?

首先，我们其他的啤酒大多使用100%皮尔森麦芽。

For one, a lot of our other bill or a lot of our other beers are a 100% Pilsner malt.

是的。

Yeah.

所以我会稍微注意一下，你知道的，短时间煮沸会产生一些不良风味，我对这些很敏感。

So I'm a little bit, you know, there's those off flavors that that come about with the shorter boils and I'm sensitive to that.

我们有很多顾客和朋友也一样。

We have a lot of customers and friends who are too.

所以我想，算了，还是这样吧。

So I was like, you know what?

我们不着急。

We're not in a hurry.

我们就直接搞九十分钟吧，这样能让我们煮沸后的体积更加可预测，考虑到蒸发量之类的因素。

Let's just let's just get it there, ninety minutes, plus it makes our post boil volumes pretty predictable with boil off and all that.

所以我们总是清楚自己面对的是什么。

So we always know what we're dealing with.

对于这些酒精度较低的啤酒，我们通常会在旋涡槽中重新加入反渗透水，稍微补足一点，因为即使用了大量燕麦，它们的效率还是更高。

Oftentimes with these lower ABV beers, we do end up adding RO back into the whirlpool just to top it off a little bit because they are more efficient despite the heavy amount of oats.

目前我正在看的其中一款啤酒，糖化效率是71%。

And we haven't most I'm looking right now are a mash efficiency on one of those beers is 71%.

所以不算太好，但也不算太差。

So it's not great, but it's not terrible.

对于五桶容量的批次，而且是在你的酒吧里卖完的，你完全可以应付。

On a five barrel batch that's sold out of your tap room, you can manage that.

你可以应付的。

You can manage it.

是的。

Yeah.

这没什么大不了的。

It's not it's not a big deal.

所以这就是我们对这些低酒精度啤酒的做法。

So that's kind of our approach for those smaller beers.

我想再提一下的是，我们生产的几乎每一种啤酒，无论酒精度如何，都会在回旋沉淀槽中加入三磅酒花——这既是出于必要，也是因为实际操作就是这样。

The other thing I wanna hit on is almost every beer we make no matter the ABV, this is part necessity and part just how it works out is we use three pounds in the Whirlpool.

我们之后可以再聊回旋沉淀槽酒花的事，但我们并不太依赖回旋沉淀槽酒花。

So we can get into Whirlpool hops and all that later, but we're not big on on Whirlpool hops.

我们会添加其他东西，比如Dynaboost和HyperBoost这类添加剂。

There's other things we add like Dynaboost and HyperBoost and those type of things.

但由于担心堵塞热交换器等问题，我们使用的可能是Cryo或T90酒花，但我们是一家固定使用三磅回旋沉淀槽酒花的酒厂，这就是我们的定位。

But based on clogging a heat exchange and other things, we are, you know, some of it might be Cryo or T90, but we're a three pound whirlpool type of brewery and that's that's just kinda where we sit.

三磅是总量吗？

Three pounds total or?

三磅总共。

Three pounds total.

好的。

Okay.

是的。

Yep.

在五桶的批次中。

On a five barrel batch.

对。

Right.

是的。

Yep.

就像我说的，我们可以聊聊回旋沉淀的温度。

And like I said, we can get we can get into that whirlpool temperature.

既然我们已经说到这儿了，那就聊聊这个吧。

Let's talk about that since since since we're already there.

为什么，当整个酿造界都在尽可能把所有东西都放进漩涡槽，从热侧移除的时候，

Why why are you know, while the rest of the brewing world is like like pushing everything into the whirlpool that they possibly can, taking it out of hot side.

而你们却还在热侧工艺的更早阶段，添加不同层次的酒花风味吗？还是说你们把所有酒花都留到冷侧添加？

And and, you know, are you instead also doing anything further up in the hot side process to add different kinds of layers of hop character, or are you pushing it all then to cold side?

关于浑浊啤酒，我知道我们只聊了低酒精度的，但我们可以继续聊更高度数的，因为大家想听那个部分。

So as far as hazy, and I know we only talked about the low ABV and we can get into the bigger stuff because people wanna hear that.

是的。

Yeah.

我们也来聊聊那个。

Let's do that too.

低酒精度的啤酒就是直接用三磅T90酒花。

The the lower ABV is just straight three pounds of t 90.

通常是马赛克、西楚、西姆科或者纳尔逊苏维翁。

So usually that's Mosaic, Citra, Simcoe, or Nelson.

这些就是我们的漩涡槽酒花。

Those are our whirlpool hops.

所以，任何酒精度低于6%的啤酒都只添加三磅T90，这是一个冷浸过程，我们会将温度冷却到170华氏度。

So any beer that is, let's say, under 6% gets just straight three pounds of t 90, and it's a it's a cool pool, so we're cooling it down to one seventy.

我们会进行二十分钟的回旋沉淀和二十分钟的静置。

We do a twenty minute whirlpool and a twenty minute rest.

所有这些啤酒都只用这种方式处理。

That's all those beers get.

一旦酒精度超过6%这个阈值，我们就会开始添加其他YCH产品，比如DynaBoost和HyperBoost。

Once we get above that 6% threshold, that's when we start adding in other YCH products like DynaBoost and HyperBoost.

比如说，一款酒精度在6%到7%之间的啤酒，仍然会使用三磅T90。

So let's say a beer is between six and seven, that beer will get the same three pounds of t 90.

但在那之前，我们会将25加仑或一桶麦汁热着注入发酵罐。

And then but before we do that, we'll send over 25 gallons or a barrel into the fermenter hot.

这是北公园的技巧。

This is a North Park trick.

事实上，我们至今仍会写

In fact, we still write

凯尔西·麦纳尔的旧信息。

The old Kelsey McNair message.

你看到这个笔记了吗？

Do do you see this note on this?

你能大声读出来吗？

You can read that out loud.

北公园风格。

NP style.

我相信那是格林奇克的埃文说的，他用了这个方法，我当时就想，好吧，我就记下来，这样我就知道是什么意思了。

I believe that was Evan at Green Cheek saying that he used that and I was like, that's I'll just write that because then I'll know what it means.

所以，你知道，那款啤酒提前收到了25加仑的热麦汁注入发酵罐，然后我们会使用DynaBoost。

So, you know, that that beer happened to get 25 gallons of hot wort sent over to the tank beforehand, and we'll do DynaBoost.

我刚才有点跑题了。

And I got ahead of myself there.

所以对于一些六到七百分比的啤酒，我们会进行正常的旋涡处理，当把它们转移到发酵罐时，我们会结合酵母接种，加入一定量的HyperBoost。

So some of those beers, like six to 7%, we'll do that normal whirlpool, and when we send them over, we'll with our yeast pitch, we'll add a certain amount of HyperBoost.

所以对我们来说，一个五桶的批次，我们全部使用克来计量。

So typically for us on a five barrel batch, we do everything in grams.

不管选择哪种品种，都会用20克。

That'll be 20 grams of whatever variety we want.

所以三磅T90啤酒花，加上酵母接种时的20克HyperBoost。

So three pounds of t 90 hops, 20 grams of HyperBoost with the yeast pitch.

我们发现我们一直在使用HyperBoost。

And we found that we use HyperBoost.

我们从工艺早期到后期都用过它。

We've used it all over late in the process, early in the process.

当我们像干投啤酒花或之后才添加时，啤酒会呈现出一种蜡质的口感，而且需要多花大约十天时间，才能达到我所说的适饮状态——让饮用者不会觉得‘哇，太怪了’。

When we use it late like with the dry hop or even after, we get this waxy characteristic and the beers take about an extra ten days to be, what I would say is enjoyable or where I want them to drink for people to not be just being like, whoo.

好的。

Okay.

这真够强烈的。

That's intense.

我希望我们的啤酒一从罐装线上下来，

I want I want our beers to come off the canning line.

首先，我们的仓储空间不多。

For one, we don't have a lot of storage.

所以希望啤酒一罐装完就直接进冷藏库。

So I want them to come off the canning line and right into the cooler.

在投酵母时加入HyperBoost，能让啤酒风味更圆润。

And adding that HyperBoost in with the yeast pitch lets it round out.

酒精度超过7%的啤酒会使用DynaBoost，我们会在热麦汁转移时进行干投。

The beers that are over 7% get that DynaBoost, and that's where we do the dip hop, send the hot wort over.

我们会直接向罐中加入200到250克的DynaBoost，与热麦汁混合。

We'll add anywhere from 200, 250 grams of DynaBoost into directly into the tank with the hot wort.

它会在罐中静置四十分钟，期间其余麦汁正在进行旋沉。

That'll sit there for the forty minutes that the rest of the wort is whirlpooling.

这些啤酒仍然会添加三磅T90啤酒花，而当我们进入下一个更高酒精度的阶段，比如超过8.5% ABV时，我们会增加一次苦味添加，但并不是使用啤酒花。

Those beers still get three pounds of t 90, and then once we get to the next step bigger, let's say over 8.5% ABV, we'll start to add one bittering addition, but it's not actually Hops.

我们使用哈斯的Flex。

We use Flex from Haas.

我们会加入20克Flex，在煮沸最后十分钟添加，由于它在旋沉阶段会停留四十分钟，能带来大约25 IBU的苦味。

So we'll use 20 grams of Flex as a ten minute addition, which gives us around 25 IBU kick, because it sits in there for the forty minutes of Whirlpool as well.

然后我们会进行同样的DynaBoost添加；如果我们酿造的是特别强劲的啤酒，就会把那三磅T90换成Cryo，以获得更浓郁的油感、更少的植物杂质，但本质上是因为我们锅里的HopDam效果不好，而我们的HEATX对酒花堵塞很敏感，所以我们不想堵住它，导致等很久才能完成冷却。

And then we'll do that same DynaBoost addition, and then if we're making something really big, we'll switch out those three pounds of t 90 for a Cryo just to get that little kick, little more oil, little less vegetal matter, but just to up but basically what happens is the the HopDam in our kettle is not great and our HEATX is sensitive to Hops Troubles, so we don't wanna clog it up and have to wait forever to knock out a beer.

所以这就是我们的策略，这绝对是通过反复试验得出的——三磅就是最佳用量，不管是用Cryo还是T90，都一样。

So that's kind of the strategy and that was definitely a trial and error type of thing where three pounds is just the sweet spot and whether it's Cryo or T90, that's it.

所以是的，这就是我们在旋沉阶段的策略。

So yeah, that's kind of the strategy when it comes to a whirlpool.

你知道，你刚才提到人们对于旋沉投酒花的看法总是这样那样。

And you know, you you did mention how people think whirlpool hops are are this or that.

我们试过加六七磅进去，但最后喝成品时，我根本尝不出区别，归根结底，我宁愿把酒花省下来用在干投上，那样能更好地控制香气，而不是用在前期。

We've tried six, seven pounds in there and on the back end we drink the beer and I'm like, I I can't perceive a difference and at the end of the day I'd rather save the hops for the dry hop where we're getting all the aromatic qualities and I can control that than on the front end.

而且我们并没有发现酒花饱和度不足，大部分香气其实都来自油分，而这些油分我们已经通过HyperBoost和其他产品补充了。

And we're noticing no lack of hop saturation, most of it's made up from the oils anyways, which we're adding via HyperBoost and those products.

所以这就是我们的策略，而且看起来效果不错。

So that's kind of our strategy and it seems to be working.

对。

Yeah.

跟我聊聊发酵吧，当然，我还想回头谈谈我们之前提到过的那个话题——你是如何从一年到另一年选择或追踪这些啤酒花的。

Talk to me a little bit about fermentation and then of course, then I wanna also get back to this subject we teased at the top about how you then select or, you know, get track some of these hops from year to year.

不过咱们先聊聊发酵，把这事先解决了。

But but let's talk about fermentation so we can just get that out of the way.

是的。

Yeah.

我们90%的浑浊IPA都是用Lallemand Verdant酵母发酵的。

So we 90% of our hazies are fermented with lollumin verdant.

全部使用干酵母。

So all dry yeast.

真的吗？

Really?

为什么？

Why?

我们发现，尝试过所有你能想到的伦敦菌株，包括新鲜接种的，但Verdant菌株展现出的特性恰好符合我们所有的需求。

So what what we found, we tried yeast from you know, all the London strains you can think of, fresh pitches and all that, and the characteristics we got from the Verdant just seemed to check all the boxes for us as far as what we were looking for.

另一个原因是价格。

The other thing is it started off as price.

我以前没在啤酒厂工作过，所以也不懂如何回收酵母。

We were I didn't so not working at a brewery before means you also don't necessarily know how to harvest yeast.

也不懂如何正确进行CIP清洗或其他各种操作，但那是另一个话题了。

Also don't know how to CIP properly or do all sorts of things, but that's a whole another story.

但其中一点是我们之前每次都是直接购买新鲜液体酵母，每批次要400美元，外加运费和手续费。

But one of the things was we were just one off pitching these liquid fresh pitches for $400 a pitch plus shipping and handling.

在五桶规模的批次中，这种做法根本无法盈利。

And on a five barrel batch, that is not conducive to making money.

后来，其实是东海岸的一些朋友向我们推荐了Lollum和Verdant。

So someone turned us actually, it was some friends out east turned us on to Lollum and Verdant.

我们的一项做法是花160美元买一块酵母砖。

One of the things that we do is we buy a brick for a $160.

对吧？

Right?

500克的砖块。

500 gram brick.

然后我们酿造其中一种小啤酒。

We then brew one of our small beers.

也就是酒精度低于5.5%的啤酒，我们用半块酵母砖。

So a beer under 5.5% and we use a half a brick.

所以我们把它分成两半。

So we break that into half.

我们投入250克，每批次能获得四代酵母。

We pitch in 250 grams and we're getting four generations out of each pitch.

因此，每块砖我们能获得八代酵母。

So we're getting eight generations out of each brick.

所以我们边做边积累。

So we build that as we go.

所以第一款啤酒酒精度低于5.5%，下一款低于6.5%，再下一款低于8%，最后一轮发酵则酿制一款烈性啤酒。

So the first beer is something under five and a half percent, the next beer is something under six and a half percent, the next beer is something under eight, and the last pitch is a big beer.

这样一来，每次酵母接种的成本大约是20美元，但实际上并没有为酒厂省钱，因为我全把钱花在啤酒花上了。

And it, you know, it makes each yeast pitch around $20, which then it's not saving the brewery any money because I blow it all on hops.

是的。

Yeah.

但我们的理念是，我们并没有把钱全花在酵母上，而且我们找到了一种非常适合我们风格的酵母。

But the idea is there that we're not just blowing all the money on yeast and we found a yeast that's conducive to our our style.

我们喜欢它的终了比重，随着代数增加，香气和风味特征并没有明显变化，但终了比重确实有差异，这非常有利于让一款3.2%的啤酒终了比重达到3.5左右，而第四代的8.5%啤酒终了比重则接近5.5左右。

We like the finishing gravity and as those generations pass, there's not a there's not a big difference in the aroma or characteristics of flavor, but there is in the final gravity, and that's very conducive to having a 3.2 beer finish at say three and a half Play Doh, and then having the beer on the fourth gen, say an 8.5% beer finish closer to five and a half Play Doh.

所以它会逐步增强，你得到的酵母越来越强劲。

So it just builds its way up, you get stronger pitches.

我们确实会添加锌。

We do use zinc.

是的

Yep.

在第一次酵母接种时，我们每批都使用了65克白 labs 的锌，不充氧，直接使用干酵母。

With the first the first pitch, we used 65 grams of zinc from White Labs with every pitch, no oxygen, just straight dry yeast.

此后每次接种，我们都会对发酵罐进行10分钟、每分钟3升的充氧处理。

Every pitch thereafter we're using we do a 10 a ten minute, three liters per minute oxygen hit on the tank.

我们使用65克锌，不添加营养剂，这对我们来说效果不错。

We use 65 grams of zinc and no nutrient, and that's that seems to be working out for us.

这基本上就是我们的做法。

And that's pretty much how we do.

我们也会尝试其他酵母菌株。

We do experiment with other yeasts.

你现在喝的这款啤酒用的就是BSI酵母。

One of the beers you're drinking right now was with a BSI.

一种BSI菌株。

A BSI strain.

这是一款联名啤酒，我们会尝试其他东西，因为我们总是在实验。

This is a collab beer, and we'll mess around with other stuff because we're always experimenting.

但这种翠绿的Lalman翠绿酵母是我们常用的浑浊啤酒酵母。

But that verdant Lalman verdant is kind of our go to house hazy yeast.

当然。

Sure.

当然。

Sure.

它确实有一些实实在在的好处。

And it has some some real benefits.

是的。

Yeah.

另外一点，我们所有酵母都是在69华氏度下接种的。

And one other note, we're we're pitching all those at 69 degrees.

我们会保持温度低于70华氏度24小时，然后让温度自然上升到七十几度的低温区间。

We're leaving it under 70 for twenty four hours, and then we're letting it free rise up into the low seventies.

我们会根据啤酒的不同，将温度控制在72到74度之间。

We'll say 72 to 74 depending on the beer.

还有一个小提示，我们有一款啤酒特别受粉丝喜爱。

One quick note, we have a beer that turns out to be a fan favorite.

它叫Green Mask。

It's called Green Mask.

这是一款8.5%酒精度的浑浊啤酒，关于它的故事很有趣：因为第一次酿这款酒时遭遇了停电，所以它总是最后一个发酵的。

It's a 8.5% hazy, and an interesting story with that is it's always the last pitch because we had a power outage the first time we ever made the beer.

我早上来的时候，收到通知说半夜两点左右我们的网络断了，安防摄像头也断了。

I come in in the morning, I got a notification overnight that our internet was off, security cameras were off about 2AM.

我们那天下午四点刚接种了酵母，我当时心想：糟了，这下麻烦了。

We had just pitched yeast, you know, at 04:00 that afternoon and I thought, uh-oh, this is bad.

所以我赶来时，发现酵母正在疯狂地发酵这桶啤酒。

So I come in, that yeast is absolutely ripping through that beer.

由于断电导致冷却系统停了，发酵罐摸起来都是温热的。

The tank is physically warm to the touch because the chiller's off because no power.

那个发酵罐在接种后十二到十四个小时内就达到了79度，我想，好吧，我们可能毁掉了一款酒体很重的啤酒，但还没加酒花，所以还没到不可挽回的地步。

That tank was at 79 degrees within twelve fourteen hours of pitching and I think, alright, well we just wrecked a beer that's a pretty big beer, but it's not dry hopped yet so not the end of the world.

于是我取了样，觉得这味道还不算糟。

So I take a sample, I think this isn't bad.

实际上，它的味道出奇地好。

It actually tastes oddly good.

我给几位酿酒界的人发了邮件，想看看我该注意些什么。

Email a few people in the brewing world to see you know, what am I what should I be looking for?

我们继续让啤酒自然发酵，结果它变得异常果香、风味绝佳，于是Green Mask变成了一款全新西兰酒花的双倍浑浊IPA，现在我们正在酿造它。

We just keep letting the beer ferment out and it is so fruity and so good that green mass became it's an all New Zealand hopped double hazy and now we just brewed it right now.

每次酿造这款啤酒，我们都在发酵一天后关闭冷却夹套，到发酵结束时，酵母都会沉到罐底。

Every time we brew that beer, we just turn the jackets off after a day of fermentation and that yeast goes down the drain at the end of the deal.

但我们每次都让它升温到大约78度。

But we just let it get up to like 78 degrees every time.

这原本是个意外之喜，但这种风味特征确实成了这款啤酒的独特标志。

So it was a happy accident, but it's definitely a profile for that specific beer.

但这种翠绿酵母即使在非常高的温度下也能表现得很好。

But that verdant can even crush it even at even at really high temperatures too.

哦，是的。

Oh, yeah.

对。

Yeah.

当时发酵进行得非常顺利，而我们上周才刚酿了这批啤酒。

It was it was going strong and and we just we just brewed the beer last week.

它已经发酵完成了，但这是我们唯一这样做的啤酒。

It's done fermenting, but it's that's the only beer we do that with.

其他所有啤酒的温度都会控制在73度左右。

Everything else gets capped at around 73 degrees.

有意思。

Interesting.

有意思。

Interesting.

我们来聊聊啤酒花吧。

Let's I wanna let's talk about hops a little bit.

你知道的。

You know?

我们之前聊过，你提到你们是一家小型啤酒厂，年产量500桶。

So we talked to you you talked to the top about how you're a small brewery, 500 barrels.

你们实际上用了大量的啤酒花。

Like, you're not doing you are using a shit ton of hops.

考虑到你们的生产规模，你们依然使用了相当大的啤酒花量，这主要是因为你们专注的方向。

And so, like, you are still using quite a large volume given the scale of beer that's produced here because of what you're focused on.

但这种用量通常不会让你在啤酒花采购中获得很高的优先级。

But that's not generally an amount that's gonna give you, like, high priority in terms of selection.

你知道，你们专注于酿造浑浊IPA，并且立志做出尽可能最好的浑浊IPA，因此获得最高品质的啤酒花对你们来说至关重要。

You know, you knew making hazy IPA, focusing on hazy IPA, and want and having an aspiration to make some of the best hazy IPA you possibly could make, that getting the best quality hops was of incredibly high importance for you.

因此，作为一家小型啤酒厂，如何实现这一点是一个有趣的挑战，而你们尝试利用数据——包括你们自身的感官体验、反应，并将这些与某些批次的化学数据进行对比追踪。

And so figuring out how to do that as a small brewery was an interesting challenge, but you've tried to harness data, your own sensory data, your own reactions, responses, keeping track of that against some of the chemical data from some of these lots.

你能谈谈你是如何将这些因素结合起来，以分析自己真正需要的油分平衡、总油含量以及特定高价值成分的香气强度吗？

Talk to us about how you track those things together to try to profile for yourself what exactly you're looking for in terms of balance of oils, of total oil content, and of general intensity of hops in the specific kinds of, you know, high point components that you're looking for?

是的。

Yeah.

早期，我们所有原料都是现货采购。

So early on, we were buying everything on spot.

刚开的小酒厂，没有任何合同。

Small brewery just opened, no contracts.

我甚至不知道合同是什么。

I didn't even know what a contract was.

我们只是现货采购，你想着，我要买一箱西楚，酿出几批啤酒后觉得，嗯，味道还不错。

We're just buying everything on spot and you know, you think, I'm gonna order a box of citra and you brew some beers and think, alright, it's pretty good.

但当你再买一箱西楚时，却会想，这到底怎么了？

Then you order another box of citra and you think, what what happened?

我绞尽脑汁地想。

I'm racking my brain.

我做了完全相同的过程，但这款啤酒和我两个月前酿的啤酒不一样。

I did the exact same process but this beer is not the beer that I brewed two months ago.

你越深入研究，就越意识到这些差异非常大。

And the more you start looking into it, realize that there are these huge differences.

并不是所有的西楚都是一样的。

Not all citra is just citra.

每个品种内部都有这么多差异，你知道的，毕竟这是一种农产品。

There's so many differences within within each variety, you know, whether that's, it's an agricultural product.

所以从一批到另一批，从一年到另一年，你得到的东西都完全不同。

So from lot to lot, year to year, you get something that's totally different.

直到我有一些朋友让我用一些大型啤酒厂的啤酒花，他们能获得非常优先的选材，我才看到大厂用的西楚是什么样子，心想：哦，这确实不一样。

And, it wasn't until I had some friends let me use some hops from some of the bigger breweries that get get a very preferential selection and got to got to see what, what the big boys use for citra and thought, alright, this is different.

你尝到了好东西，然后就上瘾了。

You got a taste of the good stuff and then then you got hooked to that.

是的。

Yep.

然后你只需要弄清楚怎么得到它。

And then all you gotta do is figure out how to get it.

所以我们和YCH的一些人开了几次会，你知道的。

So we had a few meetings with with folks from YCH, you know.

他们真的来拜访了，感觉很棒。

They actually came to visit and it was great.

刚好他们来城里，我就有些问题想请教。

Just just happened to be in town and I had some questions, know.

我说，嘿，我们有一袋西楚啤酒花，我不太喜欢，但怎么才能得到更稳定的产品呢？

It's like, hey, get this we got this bag of citra and I don't love it, but how do we get something that's more consistent?

这根本不是好或坏的问题。

It wasn't even good or bad.

关键是稳定性。

It was just consistency.

他们告诉我们，首先，如果你提前预订啤酒花，就能获得特定批次的配额。

And they were telling us, well, for one, if you contract out your hops, you can get these allocations that are lot specific.

你可以明确自己想要的风味特征，我们在线上提供了这些工具，你可以看到我们的感官团队填写的这些蜘蛛图，比如这个主要是热带水果味，那个更偏向木质味，等等，你想找什么都能看出来。

You can figure out exactly what you want, the profiles you want, and we have these tools online where you can see what our sensory team has filled out these these spider charts as far as this one's mostly tropical or this one's more woody or whatever whatever thing you're looking for.

这为更多深入研究打开了大门。

That opened the door for, you know, more investigation.

我做的任何事，酿酒是爱好，高尔夫也是爱好。

And with anything I do, brewing was a hobby, golf's a hobby.

我把这些全都变成了一种执念，它们不再是爱好，甚至都不再有趣了。

I take all these things and just run them into they're not hobbies anymore and they're not even fun.

我只是强迫自己必须了解一切，然后全力以赴。

I just take them have to know everything and and go full outs.

啤酒花的情况也是如此。

And that's what happened with the hops.

这可是啤酒最主要原料之一，决定了啤酒的风味本质。

It's like, well, this is this is one of the main ingredients of of this beer and what's making it what it is.

那我该怎么找到最顶尖的呢？

So how do I get the best of the best?

而且，YCH 提供了极大的帮助。

And, you know, YCH was super helpful.

还有 Freestyle 的人们，为我们提供了很多优质的 Rwoka、Nelson 等我们经常使用的酒花。

Also, people at Freestyle and just getting us some great Rwoka, Nelson, and those hops that we use a lot.

但接着就变成了为什么。

But then it was kind of the why.

好吧。

Okay.

我知道我们得到了这种酒花，他们说它在热带风味评分上是 100，但到底是什么让它具有热带风味呢？

I get we're getting this hop that they say is 100 on the tropical scale, but what is even making it be tropical?

这时候化学就派上用场了。

And that's where the chemistry comes in.

所以我学到了很多关于各种可存活化合物的知识，而对我们来说，由于在热端使用的量极少，存活率并不是我担心的重点。

So it was learning a lot about all the different survivable compounds, and for us that we're using so little on the hot side, survival wasn't necessarily what I was worried about.

我更关心的是一般的化学原理。

It was more just the chemistry in general.

所以你知道，当你查找工具、查看各种啤酒花时，会看到一大堆化学名称和相关的科学内容。

So, you know, you get these you look up the lookup tool and you look up hops in general and there's all these chemical names and all all the science that's involved.

你需要分解一下，这些成分中哪些才是真正重要的，或者我需要关注哪些？

And it's breaking down, alright, what of what part of this is actually important or do I need to look for?

因此我做了大量研究：与其它酿酒师交流，与啤酒花行业的人士探讨，在网上花了很多时间，阅读书籍等等。

So there was tons of research talking to other brewers, talking to people within the hop world, a lot of time on the internet, reading books, and all that stuff.

甚至后来我还与啤酒圈外的人交流，比如香水和食品香精行业的专家，他们处理萜烯等物质，我问他们：到底是什么关键成分带来了这些风味？

Even talking to people since then outside of the beer world who are in perfumes and food flavoring, who deal with terpenes and other type of things and being like, what is actually important to get these flavors?

因为如果你闻到一款热带水果香调的香水，那并不是有人把芒果直接挤进了瓶子里。

Because if you have a tropical smelling perfume, it's not like they squeezed a mango into the jar.

它是通过化学手段调配出来的。

It's made through chemistry.

那么，你该如何达到这种效果呢？

So how do you get there?

所以我开始梳理对我而言哪些成分是关键的，那就是高含量的芳樟醇、甲基橙花醇、香叶醇，以及三甲基硫醇——这是一种在啤酒花中驱动硫醇风味的化合物。

So I was breaking down what was important to me, and that's high amounts of Linalool, methylgeronate, geraniol, and three m h, which is a thiol driving compound within the hops.

这正是我们在旋沉阶段会更多使用的成分，它会与酵母等相互作用。

And that's something we'll use more in the Whirlpool, interacts with the yeast and so on.

所以总的来说，我是在寻找这三种化合物。

So it was kind of looking for these three these three compounds in general.

律草醇是我最喜欢的，还有甲基香叶酸酯和香叶醇。

Linalool is my favorite, methylgerinate, and geraniol.

因此，我寻找的是那些在这几种成分含量（以百万分率计）上较高的啤酒花。

So just finding hops that were high in those as far as a PPM standpoint.

但接下来，我需要弄清楚如何

But then from there, it was figuring out how the

仅仅从百万分率的角度来看，而不是

Just a PPM standpoint rather than

是的。

Yeah.

所以对于YCH和许多啤酒花公司来说，所有产品都会经过检测，然后提供以百万分率（PPM）表示的成分数据。

So so with YCH and a lot of hop companies, everything is tested and then they come back with PPM, which parts per million.

所以你在寻找每千克克数。

So you're looking for grams per kilogram.

然后你还要弄清楚阈值是多少。

And and then you're also trying to figure out what the threshold is.

那么，我需要在啤酒中加入多少才够呢？

So what's the minimum I need to put in this beer?

对于任何大量干投啤酒的人来说，打开发酵罐后会发现，大量的啤酒花根本没被液体接触到。

And for anybody who's heavily dry hopped a beer, you open the tank afterwards and looks like a large chunk of the hops never even got touched by the liquid.

所以你会想，这些物质的溶解度如何？到底哪些被接触到过？

So then you're thinking, what if this how soluble is this and what even got hit?

那么，我需要多少才能产生明显效果呢？

So how much of this do I need to make a difference?

过程中又挥发掉了多少？

And what also blew off in the process?

这些化合物的挥发性有多强？

How volatile are these compounds?

所以你有一些不良化合物，比如马尔森烯。

So you have some of the bad compounds like Mersene.

这些物质挥发性很强，根本没必要去研究，因为大部分都会从罐中挥发掉。

So volatile, it's not even worth looking at because most of it leaves the tank.

所以问题又回到了那三种物质上。

So again, it came back to those three.

这就是只看总油量而不关注该工艺中特定油类浓度的风险。

Which is the danger of looking at Total Oil versus looking at you know, these concentrations of specific oils in that process.

完全正确。

It's exactly.

所以，只看两个方面是有风险的。

So it's the danger of looking at two things.

一是只看总油量，二是只看感官评价。

One, only total oil and also only sensory.

因为有人可能会给你看一张感官的蜘蛛图，上面显示这款啤酒的土味、青草味或植物味为零，而热带水果、柑橘和浆果味却高达100%，于是你就会觉得，哦，这肯定是一款果味爆炸的啤酒。

Because someone could put a a spider graph of sensory in front of you and it says, this beer is zero earthy, grassy or vegetal and it's a 100 tropical citrus and berry and you think, oh, this is gonna be a fruit bomb.