音频特辑：与伊丽莎白·斯玛特的对话

二月到来，期望值提高，学业负担也更重了。

February rolls in with higher expectations and more demanding schoolwork.

孩子和家长很容易感到压力山大，但有一个绝佳的资源可以帮助孩子在无压力的情况下保持进度。

It's easy for kids and parents to feel overwhelmed, but there's an incredible resource to help kids stay on track without pressure.

IXcel 是一个获奖的教育平台，全美广泛信赖。

IXcel is an award winning learning platform trusted nationwide.

事实上，iXcel 已被美国前100大学区中的96个采用。

In fact, iXcel is used in 96 of the top 100 school districts in The US.

该平台涵盖从学龄前到十二年级的数学、语言艺术、科学、社会科学等科目，提供个性化互动内容，根据每个孩子的水平和节奏自动调整。

The platform covers math, language arts, science, social studies, and more from pre K through twelfth grade with personalized interactive content that adapts to each child's level and pace.

其即时反馈和清晰讲解帮助孩子快速理解概念，而进度追踪则持续激励他们。

Their instant feedback and clear explanations help kids grasp ideas quickly while progress tracking keeps them motivated.

此外，iExcel 能轻松融入你繁忙的一周。

Plus, iExcel fits seamlessly into your busy week.

没有额外压力，只有持续的练习，帮助孩子真正掌握技能，最重要的是建立自信。

No extra pressure, just steady practice that builds real skills and above all confidence.

研究表明，使用IXL的孩子在几乎所有州的考试中得分都更高。

Studies show kids who use iExcel score higher on tests in almost every state.

哦，而且一个订阅即可覆盖您家中所有孩子从学龄前到12年级的学习需求。

Oh, and one subscription covers pre k through 12 for all the kids in your home.

为孩子的学习带来积极影响。

Make an impact on your child's learning.

立即获取IXL，Crime Junkie的听众今天注册IXL官网时可享受专属20%折扣，网址是ixl.com/crimejunkie。

Get IXL now, and Crime Junkie listeners can get an exclusive 20% off IXL membership when they sign up today at IXL dot com slash crime junkie.

访问ixl.com/crimejunkie，以最优惠的价格获得最有效的学习项目。

Visit ixl.com/crimejunkie to get the most effective learning program out there at the best price.

我希望在2021年，大多数人能更好地理解，一个人是如何控制一个年幼、无辜的14岁女孩，让她觉得自己别无选择的。

I hope that in 2021, most people have a better understanding for how they could take control of a young, innocent 14 year old girl and make you feel like you had no options.

我的意思是，我知道一开始，很多人让我很不舒服，他们质问我：你为什么不喊叫？

I mean, I I know though early on, a lot of people it makes me sick, like, gave you grief for why didn't you scream?

你为什么不离开？

Why didn't you walk away?

但你家里有个男人。

But there was an a man in your home.

对我来说，相信他会伤害你的家人或回去，就连我自己都觉得，我14岁的时候完全不一样。

Like, to me, to to believe that he would hurt your family or go back is like, even me again, I I think I was totally different at 14.

我那时候就已经是个犯罪迷了，但我还是会相信他。

I was, like, already a crime junkie, but I would have believed it.

你当时进去了一次。

Like, you got in there once.

我觉得你还会再进去一次。

I think you would you would get in there again.

你能谈谈他是如何真正控制你的吗？

Can you talk a little bit about how he really controlled you?

因为我觉得这不一定是身体上的控制。

Because I don't think it was necessarily physical.

我觉得更多是心理上的控制。

I think it was so much of it was mental.

你知道吗，我在你做的A&E纪录片中了解到的一个关键点，是我之前并没有真正理解的——他实际上是你生活的供给者。

And, you know, one of the the pieces that I got from the A and E documentary that you did that I I don't think I really had a grasp on was how he was really like your provider.

比如，你需要他才能获得水源，才能维持日常生存。

Like, you needed him to get water, to, like, just live day to day.

你能谈谈他是用什么方法控制你的吗？

And can you so can you just talk about that, about the methods that he used to control you?

当然可以。

Absolutely.

我只是想说，这些控制手段并不是我独有的。

And I just want to just say that, I mean, these methods, they are not unique to me.

我的意思是，你在许多受害者身上都能看到这些行为，无论是家庭暴力、强奸、绑架还是人口贩卖的受害者。

I mean, you see it across so many victims, whether it's victims of domestic violence or rape or kidnapping or human trafficking.

你都能看到这些控制、操纵和孤立的手段。

I mean, see these methods of control and manipulation and isolation.

我想说的是物质剥夺，但这个词听起来像是在说毒品。

And I want to say substance withholding, but that makes it sound like drugs.

不，但我明白。

No, but I understand.

几乎是必需品。

Necessities almost.

必需品。

Necessities.

是的。

Yeah.

所以，我的意思是，这其实很常见。

So I mean, it's very like it's pretty common.

实际上，我还想谈谈另一个适用于这种情况的词，叫做‘情感操控’，这挺有意思的。

And actually, there's another word I would like to talk about which applies to this situation as well, which is called grooming, which it's funny.

我发现，如果人们没有亲身经历过，其实有很多人会觉得很难理解。

Found that if people haven't personally experienced it, there are actually a lot of people who find it very hard.

并不是他们不相信这有可能发生，而是他们很难理解这个概念。

Not that they don't believe it's possible, they just have a hard time wrapping their mind around the concept.

所以我希望，我是说，我希望他们永远不要经历这种事。我宁愿他们不完全理解，但没亲身经历，也不愿他们必须经历后才能真正理解。

So I hope I mean, I hope they don't ever experience it Like, I would rather have them not fully understand it and not experience it than than have to experience it to fully understand it.

不过我认为理解这一点很重要，因为无论是身处其中的人，还是永远不可能身处其中的人。

I think it's it's important to understand though, because even the people in it or people who will never be in it.

我觉得外界的人其实也能注意到一些迹象，你不觉得吗？

I think there are things that people on the outside can even be looking for, don't you think?

那就是

That

当然了。

Oh, 100%.

观察别人被操控的过程。

Of watching someone else get groomed.

完全对。

100%.

我的施虐者从一开始就把对我而言所有重要的东西都拿走了，所有支撑我生活的支柱都被剥夺了。

But I mean, so what my captors did is I mean, right from the word go, they took away everything that was important to me, everything that was like a pillar in my life.

所以他们，我的意思是，他们从我家绑架了我。

So they I mean, they kidnapped me away from my home.

所以他们夺走了我的家人。

So they took away my my family.

他们夺走了我的安全感。

They took away my security.

他们夺走了我的朋友、我的学校，甚至像衣服这样琐碎的东西。

They took away my friends, my school, even like silly things like my clothes.

我其实不觉得这很琐碎，但他们夺走了我所有的自由。

I don't actually think that's so silly, but they took away all my freedom.

所以，你知道的，他们夺走了那些，然后还深入到了精神层面。

So that was, you know, they took away that they took away and then things they went to like the mental level as well.

他们夺走了你的名字。

Whereas they took your name.

他们夺走了我的名字。

They took my name.

他们夺走了我的宗教信仰——那是我真正虔诚敬仰的东西，他们一再扭曲它、扭曲它、再扭曲它。

They took like my religion, something that I held very honestly sacred to me and they twisted it and twisted it and twisted it.

他们还说：‘我们其实并不想绑架你，但上帝命令我们这么做。’

And they would say, well, we really didn't want to kidnap you, but God commanded us to kidnap you.

上帝命令你们，你们应该感谢我们，因为我们救了你。

God has commanded like you should actually be thanking us because we rescued you.

你被选中了。

You were chosen.

他们对我说了所有这些话。

They said all these things to me.

我的意思是，他们把这推向了极端。

I mean, took it to extreme levels.

他们用宗教来为自己的每一件事辩解。

That's how they justified every single thing that they did was through religion.

随着时间推移，当然，他们一开始总说，我被锁链束缚着。

And then as time went on, I mean, of course, they always would say, initially I was chained up.

我逃跑的可能性很低。

The threat of me escaping was not high.

非常低。

It was very low.

我根本逃不出这些锁链。

Couldn't escape my chains.

但随着时间推移，他们总是对我说：如果你做了任何我们不让你做的事，我们就杀了你。

But as time went on, you know, they'd always say to me, well, if you ever do anything we don't want you to do, we'll kill you.

如果你做了任何我们不让你做的事，而我们没杀你，我们就杀你的家人。

If you do anything we don't want you to do and we don't kill you, we will kill your family.

这种威胁让我觉得完全可信，因为他们已经闯入我家——那个我以为最安全、最可靠的地方，并且绑架了我。

And that felt 100% believable because they had already broken into my home, you know, the place that I thought was most safe and most secure, and they had kidnapped me.

而且当时根本没人阻止他们。

And they had like, no one had stopped them.

然后他经常从盐湖城带些报纸文章或寻人启事回到这个隐蔽的营地，拿给我看，说：你看，整个盐湖城都挂满了蓝色丝带和浅蓝色气球，寻人启事贴满了每一棵树、每一根电线杆、每家每户的窗户、每家商店、每家超市，到处都是，但没人能找到你，因为我拥有你。

And then he used to bring newspaper articles or missing flyers from down in Salt Lake back to this hidden campsite and he'd show them to me and he'd be like, oh, all of Salt Lake is covered in blue ribbons and light blue balloons and these missing flyers are on every tree and every telephone pole and in the windows of every house and every shop, every grocery store, they're everywhere, but no one will ever find you because I have you.

他所做的一切都似乎在印证这一点。

And everything he did just seemed to confirm that.

我的意思是，我记得有一次，听到有人在搜寻我时真的叫出了我的名字。

I mean, I remember at one point hearing my name actually being called as searchers were out searching for me.

他紧紧抓着我，手里握着刀，说：如果有人闯进这个营地，那都是你的错，因为你不仅会死，还会亲眼看着我杀死每一个闯进来的人。

And I mean, was holding on to me and he had his knife in his hand and he said, it'll be your fault if anyone comes into this camp because not only will you die, but you will first watch me kill whoever enters into this camp.

他的刀就放在那里，就是他绑架我时用的那把刀。

And I mean, had his knife right there, the same knife that he had kidnapped me with.

感觉非常真实。

I mean, felt very real.

我知道他能做出邪恶的事，因为我曾经哭过、求过、恳求他不要强奸我，不要让我赤身裸体，不要强迫我做我不愿意做的事。

And I knew he was capable of evil because I had cried and I had begged and I had pleaded with him to not rape me, to not make me go naked, to not force me to do things I didn't want to do.

但这一切从未影响过他。

And just none of it had ever affected him.

所以我明白他有能力作恶，也知道他会不惜一切代价保护他想要的东西。

So I knew he was capable of evil and I knew that he would do whatever he had to do to protect what he wanted.

所以对我来说，这一点非常清楚，他绝对会杀死任何进入营地、试图救我的人。

And so to me that that was pretty clear that he absolutely would follow through with killing someone who came into Came across the campsite, who came to try to rescue me.

而且他总是再次回到宗教上，说：你知道，上帝在保护我们。

And I mean, he'd always circle back once again to religion and he'd say, well, you know, God is protecting us.

他们找不到我们。

They won't find us.

我记得当时有直升机。

I mean, I remember there were helicopters.

有时候直升机飞得那么低，从我被囚禁的帐篷上方掠过，我都以为他们知道我们在这里。

Sometimes they would fly so low over the tent where I was held captive in that I thought they know we're here.

他们知道我们在这里。

They know we're here.

我脑海中一直浮现这样的画面：直升机两侧垂下绳索，全副武装的特警或FBI人员顺着绳索滑下来，冲进营地救我。

Like, they're gonna Like, I just had this vision in my mind of like ropes dropping from sides of the helicopters and like guys in full SWAT gear, FBI gear, rappelling down the ropes and coming into the camp and saving me.

我脑子里一直有这个画面，觉得一定会发生。

I always had that vision in my head that that would happen.

当然，这一切从未发生。

And of course, it never did.

每次直升机飞走后，他都会在那儿说：上帝又一次保护了我们。

And every time the helicopter would fly away, he would be there and he'd be like, God's protected us again.

你知道，我们正在做主的工作。

You know, we are doing the Lord's work.

他会继续保护我们。

He is gonna continue to protect us.

我从未完全相信他所说的话，因为我从小认识的上帝，与这个让他去做这些事的上帝，有着天壤之别。

And I never I never fully believed what he said was true because there was a very stark contrast between the God that I grew up thinking I knew and this God that was telling him to do all of these things.

但我的一种生存机制就是关闭自己，乖乖听从他们的指令，因为我总觉得自己一旦反抗，就会遭到惩罚，而我知道他们真的做得出来。

But one of my survival mechanisms was just shutting down, was just doing what they told me because I just always felt like if I didn't, I would be punished for it and I knew they were capable of it.

我的意思是，他们以前就惩罚过我，为什么不会再做一次呢？

I mean, they punished me before, why wouldn't they do it again?

所以我就只是，你知道的，没有反抗。

And so I just, you know, I didn't fight back.

我只是听他们的话，因为我只想活下去。

I just did what they said because I wanted to survive.

我不希望他们比我已遭受的还要更伤害我。

And I didn't want them to hurt me more than they already had.

我不希望他们杀了我。

And I didn't want them to kill me.

而且，你知道，我依赖他们提供水。

And, you know, I I depended on them for water.

我依赖他们提供食物。

I depended them for food.

我的意思是，他们绑架我时我才14岁。

I mean, when they first started I mean, I was 14 when they kidnapped me.

我这辈子从来没喝过酒。

I'd never drank alcohol in my life.

当他们第一次在营地开始喝酒时，他们会扣留我的食物，直到我喝下他们让我喝的东西。

When they first started drinking alcohol back into the camp, they would withhold food from me until I drank what they told me to drink.

我的意思是，我记得，虽然听起来可能很傻。

I mean, and I remember, like as silly as it sounds.

我在五年级时参加过DARE项目，那时我们所有人都发过誓，绝不滥用毒品或酒精。

Now I went through the DARE program in fifth grade and we'd all made our fifth grade pledge not to abuse drugs or alcohol.

在我的脑海里，

And in my mind,

我当时就想，我违背了自己的誓言，

I was like, I'm breaking my pledge,

但那时候，这根本就是荒谬的，谁还在乎这个呢？

which like, at that point, was just silly, like, who cares about that?

但即便如此，在当时，我就是觉得，我无法遵守对任何人或对自己的任何承诺。

But, I mean, still at that point in time, it was like, it just felt like I I couldn't keep any I couldn't keep any pledge or any promise to anyone or to myself.

如果我想活下去，我就必须愿意彻底放弃原来的自己，去做他们想让我做的事，否则我根本活不下去。

And that if I wanted to survive, I just I just had to be willing to just honestly let go of who I was and do what they wanted because otherwise, I wasn't gonna make it.

有一件事，我认为任何没有经历过这种处境的人都无法理解，那就是这种求生的本能。

And one thing that I don't think anyone who's not in a situation like that can understand is this, like, instinct for survival.

我觉得我听过很多人说，如果这种事情发生在我身上，我会……

I feel like I've heard so many people say, like, you know, if that were to happen to me, like, I would.

我宁愿死掉。

I would rather I'd rather be dead.

但对你来说，是不是有什么东西突然觉醒了，让你觉得，哪怕这是我的人间地狱，我也必须活下去？

But, like, was there something that kicked in with you that was, like, no matter if this is if this is like my hell on Earth, like, I need to stay alive?

嗯，回到我之前说的，那是我父母对我的爱。

Well, going back to kind of what I was saying earlier, it was my parents' love for me.

我的意思是，即使其他任何人都不接受我、不爱我，我知道他们爱我。

I mean, even if nobody else ever accepted me or loved me, I knew that they did.

对我来说，这就足够了。

And for me, that was enough.

所以我觉得人类的精神如此坚韧。

And so that's why I feel like the human spirit is so resilient.

而这种坚韧来自于明白什么是爱，渴望在生活中拥有爱，能够感受到爱。

And it's knowing what love is, hoping to have love in your life, being able to feel love.

我的意思是，我相信，这正是我们能够克服一切的原因。

I mean, that is, I believe, you know, why we are able to overcome everything.

你能谈谈当你身处那种境地时的感觉吗？

Can you talk about when you're there?

那些你听到有人叫你名字的时刻，我想象中，你看到直升机，看到希望。

So, you know, those moments where you're hearing your name and I have to imagine or you're seeing the helicopters, the hope.

对吧？

Right?

于是你有了这些幻象——有人来救你，这种希望给了你动力，让你想：至少有人在找我。

So you have these, like, visions of people coming to save you and the fuel that that gave you to be like, well, at least someone's looking for me.

可能这中间有个时间限制。

Like, there's probably a time limit on this.

那种希望给予你的力量，但当直升机消失、再没有人叫你的名字时，那种希望一点点丧失的感觉，那种绝望感，又是怎样的呢？

So kind of the hope that it gave you, but then also after the helicopters, and and there are no more helicopters, and no one is calling your name, what it's like to lose that little bit of hope and what that hopelessness feels like a little bit.

因为我总在想，你通过基金会所做的这一切，很大程度上是因为那些得不到你这样资源的人。

Because I always think about, you know, so much of what you're doing through foundation is because of these people who don't get the resources you do.

在制作下一期节目时，有一件事让我特别触动：当你身处那种境地，却因为你的肤色、你的身份或你家庭的社会经济状况，知道根本不会有人来救你，那会是什么感觉？

And one of the things that stuck out to me as we were doing this next episode was, like, what it must feel like to be there and to know because of the color of your skin or who you are or your family's socioeconomic state, no one's gonna come.

是的。

Yeah.

每当我觉得自己离获救如此之近，却又如此遥远时，这始终是一场情感的挣扎，因为一方面，我确实……

It was always a battle of emotion when it felt like I was so close and yet so far because on one hand I did.

我真的很想大喊，告诉他们我在这里，快来救我。

I did just wanna scream out and I wanna say I'm here, come and rescue me.

但与此同时，我承受着巨大的恐惧，总觉得如果我发出声音，就会导致别人丧命。

But at the same time, I was dealing with like this enormous level of fear where I felt like if I said something, I would be responsible for the death of someone else.

那真是太可怕了。

So that was terrible.

一旦直升机飞走，或者那些声音——其实它们从来就没靠近过。

And then as soon as the helicopter would fly away or as the voices, I mean, were never that close.

它们总是离得很远。

They were always pretty far away.

但当它们完全消失时，总有一种绝望和无助的感觉，觉得自己其实已经很接近了。

But when they would disappear completely, there was always just like a feeling of despair and hopelessness to think that I was kind of close.

当然，随着时间推移，飞机和直升机越来越少。

Then, of course, as time went on and there became fewer and fewer airplanes and fewer and fewer helicopters.

我的意思是，这真的很让人担忧。

I mean, was it was worrying.

它让我思考：人们会记得我吗？

It made me think, will people remember me?

我会不会只是变成一个过去的名字，听起来熟悉，但没人真正知道他们为什么记得这个名字？或者也许他们记得发生了什么，但已经放弃了希望。

Will I just become another name from the past that sounds familiar that nobody really knows how they know that name or or maybe they remember what happened, but they just give up hope.

我的意思是，不幸的是，你知道，前48小时至关重要。

I mean, because unfortunately, you know, those first forty eight hours are are critical.

越早组织起来，越早把消息传出去，越早动用现有资源展开搜寻，你就越有可能把受害者活着带回家。

And the sooner, you know, the sooner you can be organized, the sooner you can get the word out, the sooner you can be out searching, using available resources, the better chance you have of of bringing that victim home alive.

我的意思是，这正是我们正在做的事情的原因。

And I mean, that's that's why we're doing what we're doing.

我的意思是，我记得上大学的时候看到过这件事。

And I mean, I remember when I was in college, I saw this.

那是我们校园报纸上的一篇校园新闻文章。

It was an article in our college news in the campus newspaper.

我记得当时在想，他们为什么要这样做？

And I remember thinking, why do they have to do this?

他们为什么要把我牵扯进这种事里？

Why do they have to track me into this?

但其实文章讲的是，为什么我的案子得到了这么多关注，而其他案子却完全被忽视了。

But it was actually talking about, you know, why did my case receive so much attention and other cases just simply did not.

归根结底，是因为我是白人，有着金发，长相漂亮。

And what it boiled down to was that I was white, I had blonde hair, I looked pretty.

我的父母，你知道的，我们有个不错的家。

My parents, you know, we had a nice home.

我们来自一个不错的社区。

We came from a nice neighborhood.

我的父母人脉很广。

My parents were well connected.

归根结底，事情就是这样的。

And that's basically what it boiled down to.

我记得当时，有一部分我真的很沮丧，觉得这并不是我的错。

And I remember at the time, I mean, part of me was just like frustrated and thinking, it's not my fault.

我有白皮肤。

I have white skin.

这又不是我的错。

It's not my fault.

我有金发。

I have blonde hair.

这不过是生来就有的基因而已。

Like it's just the genetics I was born with.

什么意思？

Like what?

我并没有要求被绑架。

I did not ask to be kidnapped.

我的意思是，我当时对此感到非常防御，但那篇文章多年来一直萦绕在我心头。

I mean, felt very defensive about it, but that article has stayed with me for years.

我的意思是，我并不总是像现在这样积极参与发声、倡导和 activism。

And I mean, I wasn't always as involved as I am now in speaking out in advocacy and activism.

随着我越来越深入地参与，我开始意识到，这其实是真的。

As I became more and more involved, I started to realize that actually that's true.

我的意思并不是说，我所经历的事情不是奇迹——它是我生命中最大的奇迹。

I mean, I am not at all saying that what happened to me wasn't a miracle, like it's the biggest miracle that's ever happened in my life.

但我同时也觉得，如果其他所有案例都能获得和我一样的关注，我们会看到更多幸存者回家。

But I also feel like if all these other cases receive the same attention that my case received, we would see a lot more survivors coming home.

尤其是当我们谈论服务不足的人群时，没有比美洲原住民和土著群体更被忽视的了。

And especially when we talk about underserved populations, there are none more so than the native American and indigenous populations.

他们只占总人口的极小一部分，却占了超过百分之四十的人口贩卖受害者。

They make up such a small small fraction of the whole population, but they make up over forty percent of human trafficking victims.

我的意思是，这才是真正不平等的地方。

I mean, that is you want to talk about disproportionate.

这就是不平等。

That is disproportionate.

说这些话真让人难受。

It's terrible saying these kinds of things.

但基本上，如果你生来是女性，而且是美洲原住民或土著女性，那你就是抽中了下下签，因为这根本不是会不会发生的问题，而几乎是何时会发生的问题。

But basically, if you are born a female and you are, you know, a native American or an indigenous woman, like you won the crapshoot because it's not really a question of if it happens, it's almost a question of when it happens.

这不对。

And and that's not right.

这不公平。

And that's not fair.

我的意思是，这让我觉得必须改变。

And I mean, it just makes me feel like that needs to change.

我必须为此做点什么。

And I need to do something about it.

每个人都应该得到我所获得的同等关注。

And everyone deserves the same attention that I that I received.

每个人都应该让自己的故事被听见。

And everyone deserves their story to be heard.

每个人都应该有机会回家。

And everyone deserves, you know, to come home.

每个人都应该拥有属于自己的生命机会。

Everyone deserves their chance at life.

你是什么时候逐渐意识到这一点的？

When did you come to kind of that realization?

显然，这对你来说一直是一个不断演变的过程，不仅关乎你如何应对发生的事，确保你自己和家人安好。

Obviously, this is this has been an ever evolving process for you, not only of how you have dealt with what happened to you and and made sure you were okay and your family is okay.

是什么让你意识到，现在必须把经历的事情转化为一些有意义的东西？

What made, like, you come to this realization that, okay, now I need I need to take what's happened and, like, make something out of it?

具体来说，是什么案件或原因让你特别关注原住民社区？

And then specifically, what like, was there a case or a reason that, like, drew you to the Native American community specifically?

就像我说的，我以前并不像现在这样积极参与发声或倡导活动。

So like I said, I was I haven't always been as heavily involved in speaking out or advocacy as I am now.

但我的意思是，这是一步步来的。

But I mean, it kind of was baby steps.

这就像慢慢走进泳池，因为说实话，当我回家时，我需要疗愈。

It was kind of like wading into the pool because truthfully, when I got home, I needed to heal.

我需要接受我的生活再也不会是过去的样子了。

I needed to accept that my life was never going to be what it had once been.

我永远无法回到被绑架前的那个自己。

I could never go back and be the girl that I was before I was kidnapped.

所以我必须真正与这种新的常态达成和解。

And so I had to really make peace with this new normal.

没有回头路可走。

There was no going backwards.

我只能接受当下的一切。

I could only accept what was here and now.

这对我来说真的非常困难。

And that was actually really difficult for me.

突然间，我走到哪里，人们都知道我的名字，他们指指点点，窃窃私语，还偷偷拍我的照片。

All of a sudden, everywhere I went, people knew my name, people were pointing whispering about me, trying to take sneaky pictures of me.

我以前非常内向。

And I had been very shy.

我是个不起眼的人，我讨厌这样。

I had been a wallflower and I hated it.

我讨厌这样。

I hated it.

我只是想做回原来的自己。

I just wanted to be who I once had been.

所以我花了很长时间才真正学会接受这一切。

So it took me a while to really learn to become okay with it.

但我的父亲，说实话，从我被绑架的那一刻起，他就成了一个倡导者。

But my dad who I mean, I I think honestly from the moment I was taken, he became an advocate.

我的意思是，他多次前往我们州的首府，游说并倡导针对儿童性侵的安全法案。

I mean, he has gone up to our state capital so many time to lobby and advocate for safety bills for children against rape.

他偶尔会问我是否想和他一起去。

And he, on occasion, would ask me if I wanted to go with him.

我总是问他，如果我去的话，真的会有区别吗？

And I would always ask him, well, will it really make a difference if I'm there?

他却说，实际上是有影响的，因为没有人比你更了解这种经历。

And he's like, actually, yeah, because nobody knows better what it's like to experience this than you.

你亲身经历过。

You've experienced it.

你比许多立法者更清楚，但你真正经历过这一切。

You know better than a lot of these legislators, But but you've lived it.

你真正理解它。

You understand it.

所以，是的，这会有影响的。

So, yeah, it will make a difference.

于是，我一点一点地越来越投入其中。

And so little by little, I got more and more involved.

直到现在，我感觉自己就像在大海中游泳，即将被海啸吞没。

And until now, I feel like I'm swimming out in the ocean about to be crushed by a tidal wave.

这就是我如何卷入其中的。

So that's kind of how I got involved.

事实上，真正让我觉醒的是我自己的案件，它产生了巨大的影响。

And really, what really kind of pointed me, it was actually my own case that made a pretty big impact.

我记得我的案件在州法院里拖了好几年。

I remember my case when it was in the state courts for years.

当父亲告诉我最初指控的内容时，我非常愤怒，因为所有的指控都没有包括强奸或未成年人性侵。

And when my dad told me the initial charges that they were being charged with, I was really angry because none of the charges included rape or, you know, sexual abuse of a minor.

最初回到家时，我不希望任何人知道我被强奸了。

And initially, I got home, I didn't want anyone to know that I'd been raped.

我对发生在我身上的事感到非常羞耻。

I was very ashamed of what had happened to me.

我不希望别人知道我被迫赤身裸体过。

I didn't want people to know that I've been forced to go naked.

我只是不想让任何人知道发生过这样的事，因为我当时对这个世界还不够有信心，不相信如果所有人都知道了，我依然值得被爱。

I didn't I just didn't want people to know that anything like that had happened because I I just wasn't confident enough in the world to believe that I would still be worthy if everyone knew.

我觉得人们会用异样的眼光看我，会觉得我比身边坐着的女孩低人一等，不配拥有朋友、被喜欢，甚至有一天被爱，而我还没准备好放弃这一切。

I felt like people would look at me differently, that I would somehow be, you know, less worthy than the girl sitting next to me to have friends or to be liked or or even loved one day and I wasn't ready to give that up.

现在回头看，我有一部分想法是，这其实很傻，因为我敢肯定，大家早就知道我失踪了九个月。

Now looking back, part of me is like, well, that was silly because I'm sure everyone already knew I was gone for nine months.

我的意思是，即使女孩失踪几小时，或者男女失踪几小时，人们都会自动推断强奸一定发生了。

I mean, even when girls go missing for just a few hours or boys, you know, men and women for just a few hours, I think everyone automatically jumps to the conclusion that rape has been a part of it.

但我就是不想公开确认这一点。

But I just didn't want to publicly confirm that.

但后来，我的案子拖得太久了。

But then, I mean, it took so long.

我的案子里所有事情都拖得太久，等到他们准备起诉时，那件事根本不在指控之列。

Everything took so long in my case that by the time it was like they were gonna be charged with something, that wasn't one of the charges.

我当时想，等等。

And I was like, wait a second.

那对我造成了极大的伤害。

That was so destructive to me.

你告诉我，他们对我做的最具破坏性的事情之一，却不会被起诉？

You're telling me that one of the most destructive things that they did to me, they won't actually get charged with?

当然，你知道，我的绑架者们的案件被移交到了联邦法院。

Of course, you know, my captors, their cases were moved to the federal courts.

我们可以花点时间聊聊这个，但最终他们的案件是在联邦法院而非州法院被起诉的。

And I mean, we could talk about that for a while, but they ended up being prosecuted in the federal courts instead of the state courts.

但正是我自己的案件让我开始真正觉得，我需要发声并做更多事。

But it was actually my own case that made me start to really feel like I needed to speak out and do more.

当我开始发声时，我已经走遍了全部50个州，并在所有50个州做过演讲。

As I started speaking out, you know, I've I've now been to all 50 states and I've done presentations in all 50 states.

很多时候，当我做演讲时，地点都会靠近印第安保留地，而我通常会在这些活动中安排安保人员。

And a lot of times when I do presentations, they'll be really close to reservations and I generally have security at these events that I do.

所以我想了解那个人。

So I want to know about that person.

我们会开始交谈，我会谈到他们处理多少案件，因为很多时候提供安保的是警察或联邦调查局官员。

We'll get into conversation and I will start talking about how many cases they work or because it's a lot of time it's police officers who are providing me security or FBI officers who are providing me security.

于是他们会谈论他们在保留地所面临的诸多问题。

And so they'll talk about a lot of the issues that they face on the reservations.

还有一些人只是偶然进入我的生活，他们告诉我，这件事真的很重要，却得不到关注。

And then I mean there have also been people who have just come into my life who have been like this is really important and they are not receiving attention.

他们的案件没有得到追查。

They are not receiving their cases are not being pursued.

你听说过，一个人失踪后的前48小时是最关键的。

I mean, you talk about the first forty eight hours being some of the most important hours when a person disappears.

但很多时候，要等到两周后，他们的案件才会被分配一个档案编号。

But a lot of times, it takes up to two weeks before their case is even given a file number.

正是这些经历累积在一起，让我觉得我们必须改变这种状况。

And so just it's kind of just been all of these experiences put together that have just been made made me feel like we need to change this.

我的意思是，这本不该成为这样一个问题。

I mean, this should not be the issue that it is.

白人金发高加索女性与原住民或任何其他种族之间，比如非裔美国人或拉美裔，都不应该存在这种差异。

There should not be this disparity between white blonde Caucasian blonde women versus Native American or indigenous populations or or any race for that matter, whether they're, you know, African American or or Latino or

我觉得你走过的这条道路、你所经历的这种转变真的很美好，显然，你本不必为任何人发声。

I think it's it's beautiful like this trajectory you're on this kind of transformation that you've made obviously, like you didn't necessarily owe your voice to anyone.

对吧？

Right?

如果你选择的是：我要疗愈自己，那也完全没问题。

Like, if what you had chose to do was like, I'm gonna heal myself.

我觉得那才是你对他人应尽的责任。

And I think that's all you owed people.

但你选择以这种方式发声，我认为这非常有意义。

But to to lend your voice in this way, I think is really meaningful.

你之前提到过一件事，我想稍微回溯一下。

And you said something earlier, like, for a minute, I wanted to just go back.

我想假装这件事没发生过，但我意识到我再也回不到过去的生活了。

I wanted to pretend it didn't happen and, like, I realized I could never go back to my life.

你有没有想过——我肯定你有。

Have you ever thought about I'm sure you did.

在这件事发生之前，你觉得你的人生轨迹会是怎样的？

What like, what did you think your life, the trajectory was before this happened?

你现在会成为什么样的人？

Like, who would you have been now?

而且你知道，你可能已经失去了，你会过着完全不同的生活。

And, you know, you you probably lost, you know, you'll be just saying totally different.

当你说到，我本有另一条人生轨迹，却因为别人的决定而改变时，那对你来说是什么样子？

Like, what what does that look like for you saying, like, I had this whole other trajectory and someone else's decision changed mine?

你知道吗，我小时候一直弹竖琴。

You know, I used to I played I grew up playing the harp.

我从小就开始学习竖琴。

I grew up studying the harp.

我以为我会在学校里学习竖琴，而事实上我也确实这么做了。

And I thought I would study harp in school, which I mean, I did.

但一直以来，我的梦想是进入茱莉亚学院，在那里学习竖琴演奏。

But then it was always my dream to go to Juilliard and study harp performance at Juilliard.

我一直渴望在卡内基音乐厅演出。

And I always wanted to perform in Carnegie Hall.

我的愿望就是长大后成为一名竖琴演奏家。

And mean, I just I wanted to grow up and be a harpist.

我不确定自己有没有想过更远的未来，但我知道，我也曾想象过自己会坠入爱河、结婚并组建家庭。

And I don't know that I thought much past that point, but I mean, you know, I also envisioned myself falling in love and getting married and having a family.

我知道，我确实坠入了爱河。

And I mean, I know I did fall in love.

我已经结婚了。

I have gotten married.

我有孩子了。

I have kids.

我的生活和我原本设想的确实大不相同，这部分是真的。

And I mean, part's true, but it's certainly also in a very different I mean, my life is very different to what I thought it would be.

我本来以为自己会是个普普通通的人。

I mean, I kinda thought I would be I'd be just like nobody in particular.

我就只是我。

I'd just be me.

人们不一定知道我的名字，我也不希望有什么名气、人气或类似的东西。

Like people wouldn't necessarily know my name or I wouldn't have any kind of notoriety or popularity or or anything.

对此，我完全接受，一点都没问题。

And I was perfectly 100% fine with that.

一切的开端，是因为我的情况被如此不同地对待。

Everything started, right, because you're like, my case was treated so differently.

他们为找我做了那么多事。

And they did so much to find me.

但你有没有对执法部门或那些寻找你的人产生过怨恨？

But do you ever have any resentment towards law enforcement or the people who are searching?

因为你知道，我常想，如果换作是我，心里很容易就会变得苦涩，觉得你明明离得那么近，我都听得见你的声音，但你就是没再多走一步。

Because, you know, I think about how easy in my mind it would be to be bitter to say you were close enough that I could hear your voice, but you didn't go a little bit further.

或者我妹妹早在几个月前就明确告诉了你们我是谁，但你们却没有认真对待她的话。

Or my sister told you exactly who it was months before you found me, and you didn't take her seriously enough.

而她只是一个小孩。

And she's only a little girl.

她能做什么呢？

Like, what she's supposed to do?

认真对待她本就是执法部门的责任。

It was it was law enforcement's job to take her seriously.

那你有没有在某个时刻，对他们哪怕只是因为没有做得足够多而心生怨恨呢？

Did you have a time now then that you had, like, a resentment towards them for even as much as they did not doing enough?

没有。

No.

没有。

No.

真的吗？

Really?

学习一门新语言总是令人望而生畏，但并非所有的学习方法都一样。

The thought of learning a new language is always daunting, but not all learning methods are created equal.

Rosetta Stone 旨在帮助你自然地学习一门语言。

Rosetta Stone is designed to help you learn a language naturally.

Rosetta 在语言学习领域领先已有三十多年。

Rosetta has been at the forefront of language learning for over thirty years.

提供25种语言供选择，包括西班牙语、法语、德语、日语等，Rosetta 的设计灵活直观，无需依赖英语翻译。

With 25 languages to choose from, including Spanish, French, German, Japanese, and more, Rosetta's designed to be flexible and intuitive without the need for English translation.

这种直观性能帮助你真正自然地掌握一门新语言。

That intuitive helps you truly pick up a new language naturally.

无需死记硬背零散的词汇。

No memorizing random vocab.

无需感到迷失。

No feeling lost.

我特别喜欢这些碎片化的课程，可以轻松融入你忙碌的一天，而且他们的地道口音对提升发音非常有帮助，还能提供实时反馈。

And I love how the bite sized lessons can fit right into your busy day, and their true accent is just amazing for improving pronunciation with real time feedback.

如果你和我一样计划多旅行，那就让通过语言建立更深层的连接成为现实吧。

If you're like me and plan to travel more, make connecting more deeply through language a reality.

你会感谢自己这么做的。

You'll be thankful you did.

别再等了。

Don't wait.

立即释放你的语言学习潜能。

Unlock your language learning potential now.

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这意味着你可以终身无限制地学习 25 门语言课程。

That's unlimited access to 25 language courses for life.

访问 rosettastone.com/crimejunkie 开始使用，并立即领取你的五折优惠。

Visit rosettastone.com/crimejunkie to get started and claim your 50% off today.

前往 rosettastone.com/crimejunkie，今天就开始学习吧。

Go to rosettastone.com/crimejunkie and start learning today.

嗯，现在正是学期中期的关键阶段。

Well, it's that mid semester stretch.

二月到来，期望值提高，学业负担也更重了。

February rolls in with higher expectations and more demanding schoolwork.

孩子和家长都容易感到压力山大，但有一个绝佳的资源能帮助孩子在无压力的情况下保持进度。

It's easy for kids and parents to feel overwhelmed, but there's an incredible resource to help kids stay on track without pressure.

IXcel 是一个获奖的在线学习平台，全美广泛信赖。

IXcel is an award winning learning platform trusted nationwide.

事实上，iExcel 已被美国前100大校区中的96个采用。

In fact, iExcel is used in 96 of the top 100 school districts in The US.

该平台涵盖从学龄前到十二年级的数学、语文、科学、社会科学等科目，提供个性化互动内容，根据每个孩子的水平和节奏自动调整。

The platform covers math, language arts, science, social studies, and more from pre K through twelfth grade with personalized interactive content that adapts to each child's level and pace.

平台的即时反馈和清晰讲解帮助孩子快速理解概念，而进度追踪则持续激励他们。

Their instant feedback and clear explanations help kids grasp ideas quickly, while progress tracking keeps them motivated.

此外，IXL 能轻松融入你繁忙的一周。

Plus, iExcel fits seamlessly into your busy week.

没有额外压力，只有持续的练习，帮助孩子真正掌握技能，最重要的是建立自信。

No extra pressure, just steady practice that builds real skills and above all, confidence.

研究表明，使用 IXL 的孩子在几乎所有州的考试中得分都更高。

Studies show kids who use IXL score higher on tests in almost every state.

哦，一个订阅即可覆盖您家中所有孩子从学龄前到十二年级的学习需求。

Oh, and one subscription covers pre k through twelfth for all the kids in your home.

为孩子的学习带来积极影响。

Make an impact on your child's learning.

立即获取 IXL。

Get IXL now.

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And Crime Junkie listeners can get an exclusive 20% off IXL membership when they sign up today at ixl.com/crimejunkie.

访问 ixl.com/crimejunkie，以最优惠的价格获取最有效的学习课程。

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我从未对执法部门产生过怨恨。

I've never I've never had resentment towards law enforcement.

我的意思是，直到今天，我依然对他们充满敬意。

I mean, even to this day, I have the utmost respect for them.

我的意思是，是的，我们总会听到一些令人不安的案例，比如执法部门做出了错误的判断，或没有表现出应有的敏感性。

I mean, yes, there are always troubling cases that we hear about maybe law enforcement making a wrong call or not being as sensitive as they should.

但归根结底，我认为没有人会进入执法行业只是为了赚钱。

But ultimately, I don't think anyone goes into law enforcement to make money.

就像没有人会当老师只是为了赚钱一样。

Just like no teacher goes into teaching to make money.

他们这么做，我认为大部分是因为他们本质上是善良的人，希望为社会做出贡献。

They do it, I think for the most part because they're genuinely good people and they want to help society.

因此，我由衷地尊敬他们，也非常感激他们所做出的牺牲，尤其是当你想到——就拿我的情况来说，经历了我所经历的一切后，我非常不愿意观看其他关于受害者的纪录片。

And so for me, I have the utmost respect and I'm so grateful to them for that and for the sacrifices that they do make, especially when you think about I mean, my case alone, going through what I've experienced, I am really hesitant to watch other documentaries on victims.

我的意思是，我真的很不愿意看黑暗题材的电影。

I mean, I'm really hesitant to watch dark movies.

我不看恐怖电影。

I I do not watch horror movies.

我不看吓人的电影，甚至那些情绪起伏很大的电影也不看。

I do not watch scary movies, even like emotional roller coaster kind of movies.

我不想看这些，因为我想晚上能安心睡觉，睡得安稳。

Like, I don't wanna watch them because I wanna be able to go to bed at night and fall asleep being okay.

所以，哪怕是一部孩子死去的电影，只要一有孩子在电影里去世，我就泪如雨下。

So even if it's like a movie where the child dies, I mean, time a child dies in a movie, I'm like a waterfall.

我丈夫总是说，没事的。

And my husband's always like, it's okay.

你知道的，这只是演的。

You know, it's just pretend.

我说，

I'm like,

我知道这些事在现实生活中真的会发生。

I know what these things happen in real life.

我讨厌这样。

I hate this.

所以，晚上当我丈夫和我睡前打开电视放松时，总是看喜剧或轻松的内容，或者说，我最爱的节目一直是英国烘焙秀。

And so, like at night, when when my husband and I turn on the TV before going to bed or to unwind at the end of the day, it's always like comedy or lighthearted stuff or like like probably my favorite all time show is the is the British baking show.

我看了好多遍了。

Like, I have watched that so many times.

我心想，哇，他们真有创意。

I'm like, wow, they're so creative.

他们是怎么做到的？

How did they just do that?

他们怎么就知道怎么做？

How do they just know?

糖霜和面团。

Frosty and dough.

就算我状态最好的一天，我也做不到。

Like, I can't do that on my best day.

而且，因为我有太多人向我倾诉他们从未向任何人透露过的虐待经历，所以归根结底，我需要尽可能在自己的生活中找到平衡。

So And and also because I have so many people disclose abuse to me that who've never disclosed it to anyone else that at the end of the day, don't want I need to find a balance in my life as much as I can.

因此，我通常不会看那些深入探讨这类话题的纪录片、电影或节目，因为我需要能安心入睡。

And so I don't typically watch whether the documentaries or movies or shows that that kind of go into that world just because I need to be able to sleep at night.

我不想活在恐惧中。

And I don't I don't wanna live in fear.

我非常尊重这些人，无论是警察、FBI特工、在援助中心工作的倡导者、治疗师、法医心理学家，还是那些执行性侵取证的护士——他们日复一日地面对心碎与悲剧，目睹人性最黑暗的一面，却依然坚持回来。

I have so much respect for these people, whether they're police officers or FBI agents or they're advocates who work at advocacy centers or therapists or forensic psychologists or like these nurses who do these rape kits, who keep coming back day after day after day after seeing heartbreak and tragedy and just the worst side of humanity.

但他们依然坚持回来，依然有这么多善良的人在努力为这个世界带来改变。

And yet they keep coming back and there's still these good people trying to make a difference in the world.

单凭这一点，我就对他们怀有最深的敬意和钦佩。

So for that reason alone, I mean, I have the greatest respect and admiration for them.

我觉得你真的很了不起，因为同样身处你的位置，我想你完全有权利感到怨恨。

And I think that's really like admirable of you because, again, someone in your position, I think you had the right to be bitter if you want.

你有权利愤怒，但选择不愤怒，我觉得这非常特别。

You had the right to be angry, but to choose not to be, I think, is something really special.

你知道的。

You know?

就像你说的，人们进入执法行业并不是为了赚钱。

And like you said, people aren't getting into law enforcement to make money.

他们中的大多数都怀有最好的意图，并且清楚自己的职责。

Most of them have the best of intentions, and and they know their job.

对吧？

Right?

当孩子失踪或发生袭击事件时，他们知道自己该做什么。

They know their role when when a kid goes missing or when something happens, someone is assaulted.

他们清楚自己的角色。

They know what they're supposed to do.

在我了解你的故事过程中，有一件事让我特别纠结，我至今没有答案，也不知道你是否有想法，那就是平民的责任。

One of the things that I really struggled with in, you know, learning about your story, a question that I don't have an answer to still, and I don't know if you have any thoughts on it, is more is civilians' responsibility.

在A&E播出的自传中，有一个场景：当时和你在一起参加派对的一个人哭了，他说：‘我想向她道歉。’

So there was one moment in the autobiography that the A and E won where this man who was at a party with you starts crying, and he's like, you know, I wanna apologize to her.

我本该做得更多。

I should have done more.

我本该多问一些问题。

I should have asked more questions.

而我真正陷入纠结的是，平衡点在哪里？

And where I kind of got really caught up in my own head was what is the balance?

你知道，在我们的节目里，我们总是说，要特立独行，要直率，但要活着。

You know, on our show, we always say, you know, be weird, be rude, stay alive.

但当感觉不对劲时，这个平衡点又在哪里？

But what is the balance between like, something was off.

对吧？

Right?

比如，当你察觉到异常时，该去追问，但又不能逼得太紧，否则就缺乏尊重——如果你没有被绑架，你知道，你可能会直接告诉他：不行。

Like, seeing something that's off and and pushing, but also not pushing so hard that you're not you're not respecting, like, if you had if you hadn't been kidnapped, you know, you're somebody who you would have told him, no.

我不是伊丽莎白·斯马特。

I'm not Elizabeth Smart.

不。

No.

别理我。

Like, leave me alone.

别理我。

Leave me alone.

别理我。

Leave me alone.

在不断施压和真正不尊重别人的意愿之间，界限在哪里？

Where's the line between, like, continually pushing and then, like, disrespecting someone's actual, like, will.

我不知道。

I don't know.

你只是凭直觉知道某事不对劲，然后就举报吗？

Do you just know in your gut when something is is wrong and you report it?

我再次彻底失控了，我不知道有没有答案。

I I again, I totally spiraled out and I don't know if there's an answer.

我

I

我的意思是，那个纪录片里的男人，他不应该感到内疚。

mean, like, to that man on the documentary, like, he shouldn't like, he shouldn't feel bad.

我的绑架者永远不会允许任何人帮我。

I mean, my captors, they would never have let anyone help me.

他们绝对不会。

They they wouldn't.

在那之前，他们会先杀了我，也会在那之前杀了任何试图帮我的人。

They would have killed me before that happened, and they would have killed anyone they had to before that happened.

而且我知道，记得我回家后，我妈妈一直告诉我，伊丽莎白，你的故事是自查尔斯·林德伯格婴儿被绑架以来最大的新闻。

And I mean, I know, like, remember after I got home, my mom kept telling me, well, Elizabeth, you know, your story was the biggest story since Charles Lindbergh's baby son was kidnapped.

你的搜寻行动是自林德伯格婴儿失踪以来规模最大的一次搜寻。

Your search was the biggest search that's ever been put on since the baby Lindbergh disappeared.

那可是很长一段时间，而这一切都是为了我。

Like, that's a huge period of time and that was all done for me.

所以，我的意思是，我会责怪平民没有多做些什么吗？

So, I mean, do I like blame civilians at all for not doing more?

不会。

No.

我的意思是，无论如何，我再次对所有所做的事情怀有无尽的感激和尊重。

I mean, if anything, I have once again, undying gratitude and respect for everything that was done.

我的意思是，直到今天，每当我去杂货店，几乎每次去都会有陌生人走过来，即使在疫情期间我戴着口罩。

I mean, to this day when I go out to the grocery store, probably every time I go to the grocery store, I have someone come up to me even even in a pandemic when I have like the mask on my face.

人们还是会过来对我说：‘你不是伊丽莎白·斯马特吗？’

People still come up to me and they're like, you're Elizabeth Smart, aren't you?

我会说，是的。

I'm like, yeah.

他们会说：‘我只是想让你知道，你获救的那天是我生命中最幸福的一天，你失踪期间我一直在寻找你，每天晚上都为你祈祷。’

And they're like, I just want you to know that the day that you were rescued was the happiest day of my life and I searched for you while you were gone and I prayed for you every single night.

我的意思是，不，我将永远、永远心怀感激。

And I mean, no, I I will always always be grateful.

我的意思是，为我所做的事情太多了，远超过其他任何受害者或幸存者所得到的。

I mean, much has has been done for me so much more than any other victim or survivor has been done for me.

所以，不，我永远都会对此心怀感激。

So no, I always will be grateful to that.

至于找到那条界限并清楚它在哪里，我觉得真的很难。

And I mean, as far as finding that line and knowing where that line is, I think it's really hard.

而且，我不太喜欢对抗，也完全不喜欢冲突。

And so, like, I'm not a highly confrontational person and I don't like conflict at all.

我讨厌伤害别人的感受。

And I hate hurting people's feelings.

这会让我感到非常糟糕，甚至在事情过去几个月后，即便那只是件微不足道的小事，我依然会感到内疚。

It makes me feel terrible and makes me feel terrible for like months after, even if it's something stupid.

但我的意思是，这对我来说就是我的本性。

But I mean, for me, that's just how I am.

我想我天生就有一颗容易自责的心。

I guess I just have a naturally guilty conscience.

我不知道。

I don't know.

我丈夫就是这样。

My husband's like that.

但我觉得，如果你看到什么让你觉得不对劲，就直接打电话报警。

But I think if you see something and it just doesn't sit well with you, just call up the police.

我的意思是，这本来就是他们的工作。

I mean, that's their job.

让他们来决定那条界限在哪里。

And they let them decide where that boundary is.

让他们决定该推进到什么程度，不该到什么程度。

Let them decide how far to push it and and not.

我的意思是，这就是他们受过训练要做的。

I mean, that's what they're trained to do.

所以如果你看到什么，别觉得自己非得去当面 confrontation。

And so if you see something, like, don't feel like you have to go and confront them.

也许尽量保持对他们视线内的关注，打电话报警，告诉他们你看到的情况，然后让他们接手处理。

Maybe try to keep them in your sight, call the police, tell them what you see, and then and then let them take it over from there.

有一次，这种情况真的在你身上发生了。

There was one chance where that that actually did happen for you.

对吧？

Right?

所以在图书馆那次，有人被带走，但当时没引起太多关注，因为那不是伊丽莎白·斯马特。

So at the library when someone it it didn't really make news at the time because they checked it out, not Elizabeth Smart.

对你来说，当时离得那么近，具体是什么样的情景？

What what was that specific scenario like for you to to be so close?

这简直就像直升机在头顶盘旋，大声喊着你的名字，却近在咫尺却遥不可及。

Again, it's almost like the helicopters and calling your name so close yet so far.

我的意思是，那一刻又是一场情绪的风暴，因为，抱歉，我确实感觉离获救只差一步之遥。

I mean, it was like once again a tornado of a tornado of emotion because, like, pardon me, it did seem like I was so close to being rescued.

但到那时，我已经无数次被告诉他们会杀了我。

But by that point, I mean, I had been told so many times how they kill me.

他们会杀了我的家人，直到那时，他们看起来真的不可战胜。

They'd kill my family, and up until that point, they had really seemed invincible.

我的意思是，每次他们威胁我什么，他们总是会付诸行动。

I mean, every time they threatened me with something, they they always followed through with it.

在我的认知里，他们没有理由不兑现之前对我做出的威胁。

Like there was no reason in my mind why they would not follow through with what they had threatened me before.

因此，那种恐惧和威胁几乎让我完全瘫痪。

And so it was almost just like that fear and those threats were felt paralyzing to me.

我记得旺达·巴齐当时用手紧紧掐住我的腿，而一名凶杀案侦探正在盘问我的绑架者。

And I remember Wanda Barzee, her hand just clamping down on my leg as this homicide detective was questioning my captors.

那种身体上的提醒，几乎让我再次经历被绑架的恐惧，提醒我他们有能力、有决心不惜一切代价确保我无法获救，确保我始终处于他们的控制之下。

And it was just like that physical reminder was almost like being kidnapped all over again and reminding me capable of and what what they would do, the lengths that they would go to, to make sure that I wasn't rescued, to make sure that I stayed in their control.

他们非常、非常擅长操控人心。

And they were very, very, they were very good manipulators.

我的意思是，旺达·巴齐什么都没说，因为有人告诉我，我不被允许在公共场合开口说话。

I mean, like, so Wanda Barzee, she didn't she didn't say anything because I had been told that I was not allowed to speak out in public.

为了使这看起来像是我们宗教的一部分，布莱恩·米切尔也告诉旺达·巴齐，她不得在公共场合发声。

And so to make it seem like it was part of our religion, Brian Mitchell also told Wanda Barzee that she could not speak out in public.

当然，她支持这一点，因为最终，他告诉她她想听的话。

And of course, she supported that because ultimately, he told her what she wanted to hear.

他还告诉她，她有多么特别。

And he told her how special she was.

于是她顺从了他。

So she went along with him.

因此她没有发声。

And so she wouldn't speak out.

所以只有他代表我们两个人说话。

So it was only him speaking for both of us.

我的意思是，即使回溯到那个时期，你知道，9·11事件发生后也没多久。

And I mean, I think even back to that time period, you know, it was not that long after nine eleven had happened.

我认为，首先，宗教一直是一个敏感的话题。

And I think everyone First of all, I think religion has always been a sensitive topic.

而且我认为，当时这个话题尤其敏感，任何形式的极端主义都被极力回避。

And I think especially then it was a very sensitive topic and that really any form of extremism was just avoided.

我的绑架者显然知道这一点，并且利用了这一点。

And my captor, I think he knew that and he capitalized on that.

所以他不断说，这是我的宗教的一部分。

So he just kept saying, you know, this is part of my religion.

这是我的女儿。

This is my daughter.

这是我的妻子。

This is my wife.

不，我不能揭开她的面纱。

No, I cannot unveil her.

我不能让你看到她的脸。

I cannot show you her face.

那样会违背我们的宗教。

That would be against our religion.

唯一能见到她脸的人，只有我——她的父亲，还有她未来的丈夫，而你都不是。

And the only people that will ever see her face are me, her father, and her future husband, and you are neither.

如果她向你展示她的脸，那就是对她的冒犯。

And that would be violating her if she were to show you her face.

于是，他不断反复强调这一点，直到那位警察最终被说服，转身离开了。

And so, I mean, he just kept on hammering that point across until finally the police officer, I mean, he was convinced and he turned around and he walked away.

那真是太令人心碎了。

And it was devastating.

我感觉我离成功就差一点点了。

I mean, felt like I was so close.

但看到他转身离开，我就知道，在我的绑架者带我去南加州之前，我再也不会被允许公开露面了，因为当初我们去图书馆本来就是为了这个目的。

And then to see him just turn around and walk away, I knew that I wouldn't be let out in public again until my captors took me to Southern California because that's why we were in the library to begin with.

他们正在讨论要去的新地方，因为绑架一个女孩还不够。

They were talking about new places to go because kidnapping one girl wasn't enough.

他们实际上打算绑架七个年轻女孩，而我们所有人都要成为他的七个妻子。

They were actually gonna kidnap seven young girls and we were all gonna become his seven young wives.

我的意思是，我们本可以深挖这个话题，但为了节省时间，他们决定我们真的不能在犹他州过冬。

I mean, we could go down that rabbit hole, but for time sake, they decided that we really couldn't stay in Utah through the winter.

我们根本无法在冬天、大雪和严寒中生存下去。

We just couldn't survive the winter and the snow and the cold.

所以我们需要去一个温暖的地方，而这样做的额外好处是能找到新的绑架目标。

And so we would need to go somewhere warm and that had the added bonus of finding someone new to kidnap.

于是他们去图书馆查阅地图，寻找要去的地方。

And so they had gone to the library to look at maps, to find somewhere to go.

我们当时就在那里。

And that's where we were there.

那就是他们说‘我们’的地方。

That's where they I say we.

我什么都没决定。

I didn't decide anything.

是我的绑架者决定带我去南加州的。

Where my captors decided to take me to Southern California.

之后，他带我回到了那个隐蔽的露营地，直到我们离开那天，他才带我回到盐湖城。

And after that, I mean, he took me back up to the hidden campsite and I was not He did not bring me back down to Salt Lake until the day we left.

到了圣地亚哥之后，他们找到了一个干涸的河床，把我藏在那里，我只有在他们带我出去的时候才能出来。

And then once even we went to San Diego, he took me, they found a new, like it was like a dried riverbed and he hid me there and I was only let out.

大概每周一次，或者每两周一次。

I mean, maybe once a week, maybe once every other week.

每次出去都是他们陪着我，我从来不会被单独留下。

And it was always with their I mean, I I was never let alone.

在我被囚禁的整整九个月里，我从未被单独留下过。

I was never left alone ever during my entire nine months.

总是至少有一个人陪着我，有时候是两个人都在。

I mean, there was always one of them with me, if not both of them.

我们当然谈了很多关于心理战的事情，以及为什么即使在公共场所、有FBI特工站在你面前时，你还是觉得无法开口或不敢开口。

You know, we obviously talked a lot about, like, the psychological warfare and and and the reasons you felt like even in a public place with an FBI agent standing in front of you, the reasons that you didn't say anything or felt like you couldn't say anything.

我觉得有一件事很少被人提到，人们总是把这种情况特别归因于伊丽莎白·斯马特的案例，觉得这些人会杀了她或她的家人——这完全是真的。

I think one of the things that I don't hear talked about a lot, people relate it so specifically to Elizabeth thought, you know, these people would kill her or her family, which is a 100% true.

但我认为这反映了一个更深层次的问题，我想知道你是否同意，女性往往觉得自己不会被相信。

But I I think it speaks to something bigger, and I'm interested if you agree on women feeling like they can be believed.

我的意思是，你的故事很大程度上是关于作为性侵幸存者的经历。

I mean, so much of your story is about being a sexual assault survivor.

我认为最大的问题之一是，即使那个人就坐在你旁边，也无关紧要。

And I think one of the biggest issues is it doesn't matter if the person's sitting next to you.

我认为，许多受害者内心都有一种根深蒂固的恐惧：如果我站出来，说出我被摧毁的真相，也不会有人相信我。

There is this inherent fear, I think, in in so many victims that I I will come forward.

我会说出我被伤害的真相，但没人会相信我。

I will I will tell this truth of how I was broken and no one's going to believe me.

我认为，这仍然是女性，甚至男性受害者都持续承受的痛苦。

And I think that's still something that that women, even men victims are suffering from constantly.

哦，这正是我在演讲、与幸存者会面，以及通过基金会和我们开展的各类倡议中，听到最多的反馈。

Oh, that is the number one comment that I get through speaking, through meeting with survivors, through the foundation and the different initiatives that we work on.

我们收到最多的反馈就是：没人相信我，或者我害怕告诉别人，因为我觉得没人会相信我，或者因为大家知道是谁干的，而他们喜欢那个人，所以不会相信我。

Is the number one comment that we get is that no one believes me, or I'm afraid to tell people because I don't think anyone will believe me, or because they know who did this and they like them, they won't believe me.

我的意思是，这太普遍了。

I mean, is so common.

我的意思是，我们整个活动都是围绕这一点展开的。

I mean, we have a whole campaign built around that.

这是我们从十一月到十二月的活动，名为‘我们相信你’。

It's it's our November through December campaign, and it's it's called We Believe You.

它鼓励公众做出这一承诺，因为。

And it's encouraging the public to take this pledge because.

如果你没有经历过，我希望听这个播客的大多数人没有经历过强奸、性暴力、绑架或家庭暴力。

If you haven't experienced, I hope I hope the majority of people listening to this podcast, I hope they haven't experienced rape or sexual violence or kidnapping or domestic abuse.

真希望他们都没经历过。

Hope so much they haven't.

但即使他们没有经历过，他们也认识经历过的人，无论他们是否知道对方。

But if they haven't, they know someone who has whether they know they know them or not.

我的意思是，不管那个人是否向他们倾诉过，他们都知道有这样的人。

I mean, whether that person has disclosed to them or not, they know someone.

我的意思是，这在当今社会是多么普遍。

I mean, that's just how prevalent it is in today's society.

因此，我们的整个活动旨在帮助公众了解幸存者意味着什么。

And so our whole campaign is about trying to help educate the public on what it is to be a survivor.

我们如何才能成为更好的社区？

How can we be a better community?

我们如何能更多地支持受害者和幸存者？

How can we support our victims and survivors a bit more?

我们如何才能超越指责受害者和羞辱受害者的做法？

How can we rise above victim blaming and victim shaming?

而且，你知道，我们希望每个人都能加入进来，签署我们的承诺，承诺相信我们的幸存者。

And, you know, we want everyone to jump on board and take our pledge where we pledge to believe our survivors.

我们相信你。

We believe you.

我们会为他们提供支持，给予他们爱和一个可以安心依靠的安全港湾，因为我们彼此都需要。

Where we, you know, will offer them support and where we offer them, you know, love and a safe place to fall because we all need each other.