第695集 CoinShares首席执行官谈机构投资者、ETF、国债公司与比特币的长线布局

欢迎收听由Gemini出品的加密货币101播客，这里是通往未来货币的桥梁。

Welcome to the Crypto one zero one Podcast presented by Gemini, your bridge to the future of money.

好了，各位。

Alright, everybody.

欢迎回到另一期加密货币101播客。

Welcome back to another episode of the crypto one zero one podcast.

今天我独自主持，我的搭档布伦丹因工作场所正在翻修而无法出席。

I am flying solo today without my compadre, mister Brendan, who is dealing with some reconstruction, at his place of work.

今天我们非常幸运地邀请到了CoinShares的首席执行官兼联合创始人让-玛丽·莫格内蒂加入我们。

So we are, we are very lucky to be having the CEO and co cofounder of CoinShares, Jean Marie Mognetti joining us today.

先生，欢迎来到节目，您最近怎么样？

Sir, welcome to the show, and and how are you doing?

谢谢您邀请我，布莱斯。

Thank you for having me, Bryce.

很抱歉，布伦丹今天无法和我们在一起。

And sorry, Brendan can't be with us today.

我也很抱歉，因为这期节目会非常精彩。

I I'm sorry too because this is a good this is gonna be a great one.

他特别喜欢谈论机构参与加密货币的话题，比如结构性产品之类的。

And he, he loves talking all things institutional involvement in crypto, you know, structured products and all sorts of things like that.

当然还有杠杆。

Leverage, of course.

但咱们先稍微放慢节奏，让听众了解一下你是谁。

But we're gonna just dial it back real quick and just get our audience acquainted with who you are.

更重要的是，是什么促使你创办了CoinShares？

And really, what was the impetus or or the catalyst to starting CoinShares?

正如你所说，我叫让-玛丽·莫尼齐。

So as you say, my name is Jean Marie Monizy.

我是CoinShares的首席执行官兼联合创始人。

I'm the CEO and co founder of CoinShares.

CoinShares是欧洲最大的数字资产管理公司，在瑞典上市，我们计划在第一季度将上市地迁至美国的纳斯达克。

CoinShares is Europe's largest digital asset manager with a listing in Sweden, and we are moving this listed in Q1 to The US on NASDAQ.

嘿。

Hey.

我们是怎么开始CoinShares的？

How did we start coin share?

你知道，我们是商品交易员，我们当时管理的对冲基金始于1998年，到2012年或2013年结束。

You know, we're commodity traders, and the hedge fund we were running started its life in 1998, and finished its life in twenty twelve, twenty thirteen.

那时，合伙人之间关系融洽，合作非常顺畅，我们正在寻找下一个重大方向。

And we were at that point where the partners like each other, works very well together, and we're looking for what is the next big thing to do.

作为商品投资者，我们的基因里有着深厚的深度价值投资理念，而我们几乎是以偶然的方式发现了比特币，就像所有人那样。

We had a kind of a strong deep value investing thematic in our DNA as commodity investors and you know we stumbled upon Bitcoin almost by mistake as everybody does.

有一句著名的话说：每个人都是在他们应得的价格上发现比特币的。

Know there is a famous saying saying everybody discovered Bitcoin at the price they deserve.

我们算是比较早地发现了比特币。

Discovered it quite early to some degree.

也许还不够早，有些人会这么说。

Maybe not early enough, some will say.

你知道，这正是旅程的开始。

You know, it was the start of the, you know, the journey.

你知道，我们跟着爱丽丝掉进兔子洞，就再也出不来了。

You know, we follow Alice in the rabbit hole and never kind of get out of it, you know.

所以我们不断深入，每次都能发现新的东西。

So we keep digging deeper and deeper and like discovering new new thing every single time.

我太喜欢了。

I love it.

这是个很棒的故事，你知道，它让我想到，每个人都会不约而同地掉进同一个兔子洞，真是太棒了。

That's a great story and, you know, it makes me wonder or what, you know, it's wonderful that everybody kind of goes down that same rabbit hole.

尽管每个人都是从完全不同的世界来到这个兔子洞的。

Although everybody kind of comes to the rabbit hole from a very different world.

比如，我来自媒体界，你来自对冲基金界，你知道，我们还听过各种背景的人，比如我们的制片人来自IBM，也是通过那里接触到加密货币的。

Like, I was in the media world, you were in the hedge fund world, you know, you've heard people from all over the, you know, our producer was at IBM and heard about crypto.

所以每个人都是从不同角度进入的，但比特币和加密货币确实是一个伟大的融合者，因为最终，货币的总潜在市场就是80亿人。

And so everybody kind of comes at it, but, you know, Bitcoin and crypto really are a great unifier because at the end of the day, like, you know, money has the total addressable market of like 8,000,000,000 people.

每个人都需要使用它。

Everybody needs to use it.

确实如此。

It is.

但每个人的旅程都非常独特，你知道，加密货币的旅程也由你遇到的人以及你的开放程度所定义。

But every journey is very unique and you know this journey in crypto is also defined by the people you meet and how open minded you are.

你可以进入比特币世界，只做一名加密工程师，成为比特币 maximalist，躲在自己的小世界里，完全不关注其他任何东西。

Can go in Bitcoin and just be a crypto engineer and be a Bitcoin maximalist and and live under a rock and don't look at anything else but Bitcoin.

或者你可以变得稍微外向一些，去发现正在发生的各种创新。

Or you can just like start to be a bit of a social butterfly and discover all the different innovation which are occurring.

我会说，有时是在边缘，有时则是作为基础技术的主流组成部分。

I would say, sometimes at the margins, sometime as a mainstream element of the underpinning technology.

所以，除了比特币之外，还要了解与之相关的技术元素，这确实是一种天才般的揭示。

So, you know, beyond Bitcoin, also get the technology elements attached to it, and that really was a genius act, kind of like reveal.

人们总是说，在传统机构里，哦，是的，稳定币很棒，很有趣，但我们不喜欢区块链。

Know, people were like always, you know, in the institution, you, oh, yes, stablecoin are great, interesting, but we don't like blockchain.

最终，他们开始从技术层面思考，意识到如果稳定币的故事要成立，我们终究需要某种区块链技术。

And eventually they look at the genus side and say, well actually, if the stablecoin story needs to work, we kind of need a blockchain somewhere.

那时你可以看到华尔街争相购买以太坊ETF。

And you can see the Wall Street rush to buy Ethereum ETF at that point.

好吧，总得有人去买点什么吧？毕竟我们该如何表达对它的观点或投资立场呢？

Okay, someone needs to buy something because how do we express a view, an investment view on that?

看到人们终于恍然大悟，这真是相当酷。

So it was pretty cool to see that people finally get their penny drop moment.

他们意识到，所有这些代币要想运作，都必须依托某种区块链技术元素。

Said, okay, for all these tokens to work, they need to get some form of blockchain technology element.

因此，除了简单的投资层面，背后还存在着非常强大的技术维度。

So there is a very strong technology angle beyond, you know, the simple kind of investment aspect of things.

这真的很酷。

That's pretty cool.

是的。

Yeah.

而且这不仅仅是私人企业区块链。

And it's not just like the private enterprise blockchains.

我觉得，某种程度上，那艘船已经驶离或沉没了，我该这么说。

I feel like in a sense, that ship has kind of sailed or sunk, I should say.

这些基于区块链的资产，就像黑石的Biddle基金。

It's like a lot of these blockchain, you know, based assets, you know, are like the Biddle fund from BlackRock.

它们都在以太坊和其他公共区块链上。

Like, that's on Ethereum and all these other public blockchains.

我看到摩根大通链或摩根大通币现在也在Base上为其他机构交易。

And I saw JPMorgan chain or JPMorgan coin now trades on base for other, you know, institutions and stuff.

所以公共区块链感觉像是

And so the public blockchains, it feels like, is

这并不是关于沉没或燃烧的问题。

It's the not so much about sinking burning.

更准确地说，它们在演进过程中是一种必要的恶。

It's more a question of, like, they were kind of necessary evil in the evolution journey.

你知道吗，如果回想起数字资产持有始于2016年或2017年左右，当时有DRW、瑞银等大公司 backing，你知道的。

You know, if you were to think about when, you know, digital asset holding started back in 2016, probably, or 2017, backed by DRW and UBS and some big names, you know.

他们还请了华尔街的大牌CEO来掌舵。

And they put a big name CEO as well from Wall Street to lead the ship.

对他们来说，要跑去跟高盛或其他大银行说：‘是的，你们要信任这种开放的、无许可的区块链环境’，这真的非常困难。

You know, it's very difficult for them to go talk to Goldman Sachs or any other big bank and like in the idea that, yeah, you're gonna trust this kind of open permission less blockchain situation.

就是这样。

Here it is.

所以这几乎是一个阶段性的过程，私人区块链的失败反而让开放架构变得更强大，但你必须先经历失败。

So it's almost kind of this journey stage by stage, where it's almost like the failure of the private blockchain is what make it much more powerful in an open architecture, but you have to go through the failure first.

因此，创新所需的种种曲折是必要的，你可以回溯一下，二十年前，当马克·贝尼奥夫开始推广Salesforce时，他甚至一分钱都融不到，因为人人都说没人愿意把数据放在云端。

And so the kind of like the hoops of innovation were necessary, and you saw it through different so idea, if you go back, you know, twenty years ago, when Marc Bernioff started marketing Salesforce, he couldn't even raise a dollar because everybody was saying nobody would want to put the data in the cloud.

如今Salesforce取得了成功。

Salesforce is a success it is today.

所以不幸的是，我们真的很难看清创新的长远潜力。

So unfortunately, don't really see the capacity of innovation far enough.

他们总是低估了创新在长期中的潜力，却高估了它在短期中的效果。

They always underestimate what innovation can do in the long term and overestimate in the short term.

看到这种演变真是太好了。

You know, it's great to see this evolution.

你提到了摩根大通币和摩根大通基于此的架构，但比特币今天早上宣布，我们现在已经也在BNB链上运行了。

You were talking about JPMorgan coin and JPMorgan based effectively architecture, but Bitol announced this morning that we're running now on BNB chain as well.

这同样是一场彻底的转变，因为架构已经实现了在不同区块链之间的互操作性。

It's kind of a complete transformation as well as the architecture has become cross operatable in different blockchain.

甚至在稳定币领域，你上周末也看到了，当SWIFT网络关闭时，摩根大通和星展银行通过不同的区块链和跨渠道完成了结算。

And even on the stablecoin world, you know, that you saw last weekend, while SWIFT network was closed, you get JPMorgan and DBS settling through through different chain and cross operation between channels.

但机构层面的事情确实在加速推进，这对CoinShare来说非常令人振奋。

But stuff are definitely moving at an institutional level as well, and and that's quite exciting for CoinShare.

你有兴趣轻松扩大你的比特币投资组合吗？

Are you interested in effortlessly growing your Bitcoin portfolio?

我当然有兴趣。

I sure am.

Gemini信用卡在每次消费时都会返还比特币给您。

The Gemini credit card earns you Bitcoin back on every purchase.

像使用任何信用卡一样使用它。

Use it just like any credit card.

购买午餐、汽油，甚至每周的杂货，您都能立即获得高达4%的比特币或其他50多种加密货币返现，直接存入您的账户。

Buy lunch, gas, or even your weekly groceries, and you'll earn up to 4% back instantly in Bitcoin or one of over 50 other cryptos straight to your account.

所有这些都无需年费，而且现在您还可以领取200美元的比特币欢迎奖金。

All that with no annual fee, and right now, you can grab a $200 Bitcoin welcome bonus.

这是开始积累您的比特币资产的最简单方式。

It's the easiest way to start building your Bitcoin stack.

前往gemini.com/card了解更多信息。

Go to gemini.com/card to learn more.

条款适用。

Terms apply.

有关利率和费用的更多信息，请参见描述中的链接。

See the link in the description for more information regarding rates and fees.

由WebBank发行。

Issued by WebBank.

要符合200美元加密货币入门奖励资格，您必须在前90天内消费3000美元。

To qualify for the $200 crypto intro bonus, you must spend $3,000 in your first ninety days.

部分即时奖励有例外情况。

Some exclusions to instant rewards apply.

这并非投资建议，加密货币交易存在风险。

This is not investment advice in trading crypto involves risk.

请查阅Gemini网站以了解有关利率和费用的更多详情。

Check Gemini's website for more details on rates and fees.

你知道吗？你的日历年龄并不总是与你身体的实际年龄一致。

Did you know your calendar age doesn't always match how old your body actually is?

当我做了TruDiagnostic的TruAge检测后，我亲身体会到了这一点，它彻底改变了我对健康的看法。

I found that out firsthand when I took the TruAge test from TruDiagnostic and it completely changed the way I think about my health.

只需一个简单的居家检测，你就可以在无需看医生或去实验室的情况下，了解自己的真实生物年龄。

With just a simple at home test, you can find out your true biological age with no doctor visits or labs.

只需轻轻一刺手指，无痛快捷。

Just a quick painless finger prick.

你使用预付邮包寄回样本，两到三周内即可收到一份关于衰老与健康的详细在线报告。

You mail in your sample using a prepaid package and in two to three weeks, you will get a detailed online report about your aging and health.

这项检测会详细分析你心脏、大脑、肝脏和肺部等11个关键系统的衰老速度，并涵盖75个长寿生物标志物，包括代谢健康、免疫反应和疾病风险。

The test breaks down how fast 11 key systems like your heart, brain, liver, and lungs are aging plus 75 longevity biomarkers covering things like metabolic health, immune response and disease risk.

你的生物年龄——即细胞和器官的实际老化程度——才是预测你患心脏病、癌症和痴呆等严重疾病风险的首要指标。

Your biological age, how old your cells and organs really are is actually the number one predictor of your risk for serious diseases like heart disease, cancer and dementia.

因此，了解这一点可能改变你的生活，而这正是TrueAge帮助你做到的。

That's why knowing it can be life changing and that's exactly what TrueAge helps you do.

他们让我轻松完成采血，清晰展示结果，并提供数据，帮助我制定出最适合自己的健康改善计划。

They made it so easy to get my blood drawn, show me my results and give me the data so I could make the perfect action plan for me to better my health.

如果你认真关注长寿，或只是好奇自己身体的真实年龄，请访问 truediagnostic.com，并使用我的优惠码 crypto 101，享受订单或订阅总额20%的折扣。

If you're serious about longevity or just curious about what your body's real age is, head to truediagnostic.com and use my code crypto 101 for 20% off your entire order or subscription.

访问 truediagnostic.com，使用优惠码 crypto one zero one，立享20%折扣。

That's truediagnostic.com, code crypto one zero one for 20% off.

你的未来自我会感谢你。

Your future self will thank you.

寒冷的早晨，节日计划。

Cold mornings, holiday plans.

这时候我需要我的衣橱能轻松应对。

This is when I need my wardrobe to just work.

这就是我如此钟爱Quince的原因。

That's why I'm all about quints.

它们让你轻松保持帅气、感觉良好，并找到经久耐用的礼物。

They make it easy to look sharp, feel good, and find gifts that last.

从蒙古羊绒毛衣到意大利羊毛大衣，Quince的产品采用优质材料制成，无需奢侈品牌的溢价，却能持久耐用。

From Mongolian cashmere sweaters to Italian wool coats, Quince pieces are crafted from premium materials and built to hold up without the luxury markup.

Quince提供每位男士都需要的必备单品。

Quince makes the essentials every guy needs.

50美元的蒙古羊绒毛衣、外观和触感都像设计师品牌的意大利羊毛大衣，以及剪裁合身的牛仔裤和卡其裤。

Mongolian cashmere sweaters for $50, Italian wool coats that look and feel designer, and denim and chinos that fit just right.

他们的外套系列可不是闹着玩的，兄弟们。

Their outerwear lineup is no joke, guys.

你们真得去看看。

You have to go check it out.

每一件产品都由信誉良好的工厂使用优质材料制成，这些工厂在工艺和道德生产方面都符合严格标准。

Each piece is made from premium materials by trusted factories that meet rigorous standards for craftsmanship and ethical production.

通过去掉中间商和传统加价，Quince 以远低于奢侈品牌的价格提供了同等品质。

By cutting out the middleman and traditional markup, Quince delivers the same quality as luxury brands at a fraction of the price.

这就是你真正想穿的衣服，经得起一季又一季的考验。

It's everything you actually want to wear, built to hold up season after season.

兄弟们，我从 Quince 买的羽绒服在我冬天去北方探亲时帮我度过了严寒。

Guys, the down jacket I picked up from Quince is getting me through the cold winter when I go up north to visit my family.

我还买了一件很棒的背心，当佛罗里达天气变冷时我也喜欢穿。

I also got an awesome vest that I like to wear down here in Florida when the weather gets colder as well.

它看起来超级昂贵、像设计师品牌，但价格只是零头。

It looks super expensive and designer, but again, it's a fraction of the price.

朋友们，这个假日季，用Quince整理好你的衣橱，搞定你的礼物清单。

Guys, get your wardrobe sorted and your gift list handled this holiday season with Quince.

别再等了。

Don't wait.

前往 quince.com/crypto101，享受免费配送和365天退换服务。

Go to quince.com/crypto101 for free shipping on your orders and three hundred sixty five day returns.

现在在加拿大也已上线。

Now available in Canada too.

那就是 quince，q u i n c e 点 com 斜杠 crypto 一零 一。

That's quince, q u I n c e dot com slash crypto one zero one.

你将享受免费配送和365天退换服务。

You'll get free shipping and three hundred and sixty five day returns.

Quint.com/crypto10one。

Quint.com/crypto10one.

你会庆幸自己这么做了。

You'll be glad you did.

变老过程中最艰难的部分之一，就是感觉身体有些不对劲，却说不清具体哪里出了问题。

One of the hardest parts of getting older is feeling like something's off in your body, but not knowing exactly what.

这不仅仅是衰老。

It's not just aging.

往往也是你的荷尔蒙在作祟。

It's often your hormones too.

当荷尔蒙失衡时，一切都感觉不对劲。

When they fall out of balance, everything feels off.

但好消息是：

But here's the good news.

这不必成为你下一章的故事。

This doesn't have to be the story of your next chapter.

Happy Mammoth 推出的荷尔蒙平衡配方 Hormone Harmony，是一种采用科学验证成分制成的草本配方，旨在通过平衡雌激素、睾酮、孕激素，甚至压力激素皮质醇来调节你的荷尔蒙。

Hormone Harmony by Happy Mammoth is an herbal formula made with science backed ingredients designed to fine tune your hormones by balancing estrogen, testosterone, progesterone, and even stress hormones like cortisol.

它有助于缓解潮热、睡眠不佳、精力不足、腹胀等常见问题。

It helps with common issues such as hot flashes, poor sleep, low energy, bloating, and more.

拥有超过四万条评价，每24秒就售出一瓶，效果不言而喻。

With over 40,000 reviews and a bottle sold every twenty four seconds, the results speak for themselves.

一项调查显示，86%的女性减掉了体重，77%的人情绪得到改善，100%的人感觉自己又回来了。

A survey found eighty six percent of women lost weight, seventy seven percent saw an improved mood, and one hundred percent felt like themselves again.

开启你的下一章，感受平衡与掌控。

Start your next chapter feeling balanced and in control.

限时优惠，在 happy mammoth dot com 下单首单享受15%折扣，结账时使用代码 next next chapter。

For a limited time, get 15% off your entire first order at happy mammoth dot com with code next next chapter at checkout.

立即访问 happymammoth.com，自然找回原来的自己。

Visit happymammoth.com today and get your old self back naturally.

是的。

Yes.

那么让我们深入探讨一下代币份额的具体内容。

So let's dive into coin shares exactly.

你们为机构投资者甚至零售投资者提供哪些产品和服务？

What what are your products and server services that you guys are offering to institutional investors and maybe even retail investors?

我们对它的理解是，我们最初是一家数字资产对冲基金。

Well, way we think about it is that we started as a hedge fund in digital asset.

对冲基金业务很难规模化，我们最初的想法是：如何将一点点财务自由融入每个人的退休账户中？

The hedge fund business couldn't really scale, and the idea for us at the beginning was like, okay, do how we sprinkle a little bit of financial freedom, into everybody retirement account?

这正是我们最初承诺的目标。

And that was really the original promise.

因此，在2015年，当时最好的方式是通过ETF架构来实现这种财务自由。

And so the best vehicle at the time, back in 2015, to sprinkle this financial freedom was to get an ETF framework.

于是我们做了和Grayscale在美国所做的事情完全相同的事。

So we did exactly what Grayscale was doing in The US.

今天我们也在欧洲做了同样的事情。

We did the same thing in Europe back in today.

我们一直沿着ETF这条路走到了2020年，直到今天。

And we kind of like run this journey on the ETF side until '20 until today.

我们至今仍在欧洲和美国积极运作，尽管在美国的规模小得多，但我们已经在美国建立起了初步的业务存在。

We're still doing it very actively, in the both in Europe and in The US at a much smaller size, but you know we have a starting of a presence in The US.

这是一种上市工具、上市基金的模式，因此任何拥有经纪账户的人，无论是机构还是散户，即使我们并不主动向散户分销，但该产品实际上对散户开放，前提是经纪公司通过适当性测试。

And that's kind of a listed vehicle, listed fund approach, so everybody with a brokerage account, whether they are institutional or retail, even if we don't distribute actively to retail, but the product are effectively available for retail subject to the appropriateness test by the brokerage house.

从那里开始，我们在CoinShare内部也建立了一个非常强大的资本市场部门。

And so, from there we kind of like add also a very strong capital market division within CoinShare.

这个资本市场部门使我们能够重新推出我们的私募基金和对冲基金产品，目前该产品正在开发中。

This capital market division enabled us to relaunch our private fund and hedge fund product, which is being developed as we speak.

那么问题来了，我们接下来该往哪里走？

And the question is like, where do we go from there?

我们一直以来都是根据市场能够消化的能力来销售产品。

And like, know, we have been always selling to the market what the market was able to consume.

在2017年推销DeFi是没有意义的，因为那时连‘DeFi’这个词都还不存在。

There was no point selling in 2017 DeFi, it wasn't even a word.

所以问题在于，我们如何通过代币化渠道推进价值，并推出越来越复杂、越来越契合去中心化技术理念的后续产品？

And so the question is like how do we move forward through the tokenization channel value, and you know, post product which are more and more sophisticated, and more and more kind of embracing the values of decentralized technology.

是的。

Yeah.

太棒了。

That's awesome.

而且看起来有越来越多的ETF推出。

And it seems like there's more and more ETFs coming out.

显然，最初是比特币ETF和以太坊ETF。

Obviously, started with the the Bitcoin ETFs, the Ethereum ETFs.

我们刚刚在美国获得了质押批准，作为一种非证券交易。

We just in America got staking approved as, you know, kind of a non securities transaction.

因此，我们在SolanaETF中加入了质押功能。

So we've got the staking component in the Solana ETF.

而且显然，现在有超过一百种其他加密货币ETF已提交申请，符合通用上市标准。

And apparently now there's a whole host of over a 100 Altcoin ETFs slated for approval that have gone through the generic listing standards.

我只是想听听你的看法。

And I just kind of want to get your take.

所有这些对生态系统来说都是净利好吗？

Are all of these like a net positive for the ecosystem?

你知道，这会不会让投资者感到困惑？

You know, is it just kind of confusing investors?

对于这一波山寨币ETF的涌现，你怎么看？

Like what do you kind of make of just this flurry of Altcoin ETFs?

这有点形式主义的问题，因为每个人都想复制贝莱德的成功。

There's a bit of formal issue, because everybody wants to replicate the success of BlackRock.

每个人都看着它，心想：好吧，贝莱德在比特币上取得了巨大成功，那我们能不能也抓住它的尾部效应？

And you know, everybody's looking at it and say, okay, BlackRock has done a massive win on Bitcoin, so how about we can capture the tail element of it?

这本身是一种非常短期的视角，但你知道，市场需要恢复正常，需要过度反应。

That's kind of a very short term view in itself, but you know, the market needs to normalize, they need to over swing.

与欧洲相比，美国已经十年没有加密ETF了，所以市场显然会向另一个方向过度反应。

The US has been deprived of crypto ETF for ten years compared to Europe, so obviously the market gonna over swing in the other direction.

这对投资者来说很混乱，对理财顾问来说也很混乱，你今天在美国跟顾问们聊，他们会开始理解比特币的逻辑，知道为什么要把比特币加入投资组合。

It is confusing for investors, it is confusing for advisors, you you talk to advisors today in The US, you know, they kind of start to get the Bitcoin narrative and why to sell it and why to add it to your portfolio.

但当你谈到以太坊时，他们已经看着你，问：你在说什么？

You move to Ethereum as they already look at you saying what are you talking about?

当你谈论炒作时，他们看着你说：什么是超流动性？那是什么？

You talk about hype as they look at you say what hyper liquid, what is that?

所以这就像是，你知道，挺不错的。

So it's just like, you know, it's great.

你面对的是非常强大的散户群体。

You're a very much strong retail audience with that.

我觉得这变得越来越混乱了，这简直就是律师们的绝佳生意。

I think it's becoming more and more confusing, and it's just, you know, it's a fantastic business for lawyers.

这是托管机构的绝佳生意。

It's a fantastic business for custodians.

这是许多人的绝佳生意。

It's a fantastic business for plenty of people.

最终，这越来越成为一个问题：人们到底想做什么？

Eventually, it's becoming more and more of a question of, like, what do people want to do?

你知道，在某个时候，如果你真的想交易市场上每一个代币，还不如直接开一个Coinbase账户。

And you know at some point you're better off just having a Coinbase account if you really want to trade in every single token available in the market.

所以，这是所有事情的另一面。

And so that's kind of the flip side of everything.

当我们看币种份额时，你知道，我们未来十年不会继续做我们过去十年一直在做的事情。

Know when we look at coin share, you know we're not really in the game or doing for the next ten years what we've been doing for ten years already.

因此，我们正在关注事物及其演变，努力将自己定位在能够真正为投资价值链增添价值的位置，并寻找方法推出具有差异化优势的产品。

So, know, we're looking at stuff and the evolution of things and trying to position ourselves where we really try to add value to the investment value chain and try to figure out a way to bring products which are differentiated and differentiating.

例如，我们在美国推出了一款名为Dime的产品，Dime是一个包含10种不同币种的篮子。

We launched for instance in The US a product called Dime and Dime is like listing 10 different coins in the basket.

每种币种的风险预算为10%。

Have a clear risk budget of 10% per coin.

但根据当前的监管框架，这种币种短期内不可能作为单一币种在美国上市。

But this coin has no chance to be listed in The US anytime soon as single coin under the current framework.

因此，这将带来一定的分散化效果。

So, it'll bring a kind of a diversification.

所以，好吧，我希望在已经持有多只贝莱德ETF或任何比特币ETF的投资组合中，增加一些选择权和看涨期权的元素，这时你可以将其作为一种几乎像叠加层的工具，使其在你的投资组合中显得合理。

So, okay, I want a bit of optionality, a bit of call option element into a portfolio which is already long a BlackRock ETF or any kind of Bitcoin ETF, and at that point you can get that as almost like an overlay which makes sense in your portfolio.

我们正在尝试以不同的方式思考问题，试图提出一种新的叙事，而不是简单地说：这里有一大堆上币机会，你可以在一个超级交易所里随意挑选自己喜欢的。

We're trying to think about stuff a little bit differently and try to bring a different narrative to just like, okay, here's a kind of a plethora of listing opportunity and pick and choose what you like with just a super exchange.

是的，这非常有道理。

Yeah, no, it makes a ton of sense.

我认为这是正确的做法，但当然这不是唯一的途径，现在还涌现出一大批数字资产国库公司。

And I think it's the right approach, but of course it's not the only There's a whole slew now of these digital asset treasury companies as well.

每个人都试图复制迈克尔·塞韦尔所取得的成功。

And everybody's trying to replicate the same success that Michael Saylor kind of had.

我也很好奇想听听你的看法。

And I'm curious as well to kind of get your take.

你觉得这种趋势是可持续的吗？

Do you think that this trend is sustainable, you know, or not?

你对这些公司的看法是什么？

Kind of what's your rationale around these?

这其中充满了希望。

Like there's a lot of hope.

说得通。

Fair enough.

几天前在迈阿密的坎特会议上，我碰到了迈克尔。

I bumped into Michael in Miami at the Cantor conference a couple of days ago.

人们在一件事上感到困惑。

And people are confused with one thing.

就像只有一个中本聪一样，也只有一个迈克尔·塞勒。

It's like the same way there is only one Satoshi, there is only one Michael seller.

所以，并不是每个人都能复制迈克尔在微策略故事中所营造的光环和投资理念。

And so, you know, not everybody can replicate the aura and the kind of investment thesis that Michael put into this kind of micro strategy story.

于是，银行家和律师们大规模地复制了迈克尔的这种提议。

And so, again, the bankers and the lawyers replicated all at scale Michael's sort of proposal.

但要创造出同样成功的东西非常困难。

But, you know, it's very difficult to create something which is as successful.

他是第一家资产负债表公司。

It was the very first treasury company.

它具有先发优势模式。

It has a first mover advantage mode.

它还由一群深刻理解资本市场、并以极其先进的方式对这类产品进行结构设计和安排的人运营。

It was also run by people who understand capital market in-depth and the kind of structuring and structuration of all these kind of products in a very, very advanced manner.

因此，现实地看，并非所有 treasury 公司都是同等诞生的。

And so realistically not all treasury companies are born equally.

它们的形态、规模都非常不同，而且我认为，目前市场上对比特币的疲软表现，主要是因为大多数做市商持有多头比特币和空头 treasury 公司头寸，他们当时是在套利价差。

They are very different shape, different size, and actually I think the softness you see in the market right now, on Bitcoin specifically, is down to most of the market maker being long Bitcoin and short treasury company because they were like arbitraging the spread.

现在价差已经收窄，他们正在平仓，本质上是通过卖出比特币来买入 treasury 公司的头寸。

And now that the spread has collapsed, they're just like unwinding the trade and basically selling Bitcoin to be able to buy by the treasury company trade.

因此，你正处在一个 treasury 公司作为数字资产资本积累的强大加速器的境况中。

And so you're very much in this situation where the treasury company has been a formidable accelerator in terms of accumulation of capital into digital assets.

它们还创造了针对数字资产的封闭型受众和专属资本池。

They are creating captive audience as well in terms of captive pool of capital dedicated to digital assets.

我认为它们的发行额度是有限的。

I think their live shelf is limited.

你可能会看到大量关于它们的并购、整合或收购活动，无论是它们之间的，还是外部交易者或私募股权决定拆分并逐件出售它们。

You're going to probably see a lot of M and A activity, consolidation or takeover activity around them between themselves and between external traders or private equity decide to say, okay, we're gonna dismantle that and sell it in pieces.

因此，在未来三十六个月内，你可能会看到大量围绕这一领域的重组，尤其是当溢价消失、其中一些开始以显著折价交易时。

So you're probably gonna see a lot of restructuring happening in the next thirty six months around that, especially if the premium are disappearing and some of them start to trade at significant discounts.

现在是律师季和投资银行季。

It's lawyer season and investment banker season.

律师季一直都在。

Lawyer season is always on.

它从不停止。

It never stops.

这是一个永不开始、永不结束的季节。

It's a season who never it never stops, never starts.

天啊，我选错了行业。

Man, I got into the wrong business.

我也是。

Me too.

是的。

Yeah.

当你与机构交谈时，他们仍处于理解比特币的最初阶段。

When you talk to an institution, they are still, you know, at the very, very first innings of their understanding of what is Bitcoin.

所以这正是他们关注的重点。

So that's really what they're driving.

他们想知道，比特币到底是什么？

Is that okay, Bitcoin, they want to understand that.

接下来的问题是，我们下一步该怎么做？

And then the next question is, okay, what do we do next?

我们在这一旅程中已经走了多远？

How late are we in the journey?

实际上，市场配置或资本配置正跟随比特币代币的股权结构，也就是说，所有代币的总市值。

And effectively market allocation or capital allocation is following, I would say the cap table of Bitcoin token, you know, it's like all the total market cap of every single token.

因此，这里存在一个削弱因素：与比特币相比，你在Solana上的配置会更少，如果你从一个 treasury 公司的角度来看，就能看到这种尾部事件。

So you have effectively a weakening factor here where you're gonna get less allocation on Solana that you have on Bitcoin, you know, if you look just as a treasury company, you can see that kind of tail event.

你看一下ETF，也能看到这种尾部效应。

You look at the ETF, you can see that tail event as well.

因此，现实中人们从比特币开始，然后根据他们的方向不同，有些人就停在比特币，因为我们的投资委员会对加密货币的理解还很初级。

And so realistically, people start with Bitcoin, and then they start to, depending which direction they go, they stop at Bitcoin because like, our investment committee is barely understanding crypto.

所以我们不会用超出比特币的更多内容去让他们大脑爆炸。

So we're not gonna blow their brain away with more than Bitcoin.

或者他们有强烈的意愿去说：好吧，我们在比特币上已经落后了，我们该如何追赶？

Or they have a serious appetite to say, okay, we're already late on Bitcoin, how do we start catching up?

这时他们就开始关注支撑比特币和数字资产的整体技术层面，也就是我所说的，所有L1之间以及L2层面发生的事情之间的根本差异。

And that's when they start looking into effectively the technology play, is underpinning Bitcoin and digital asset in general, which is the entire, I would say, differentiation between all the L1 and what's happening on the L2 level.

所以不同的机构处于旅程的不同阶段，现实中绝大多数仍处于第一阶段，即试图理解比特币，以及如何开始让他们的大脑不至于在接触代币化的力量及其对世界的影响时爆炸。

So so different institution after different stage of the journey, you know, realistically the vast majority is at the stage one, which is by trying to understand Bitcoin, and how to start, you know, getting their brain effectively not to explode when they start looking at the power of tokenization and what it can do for the world.

这一定是一个缓慢的过程。

It's gotta be like a slow grind.

缓慢的采用和

The slow sort of adoption and

确实是这样，但你知道，就是。

It is, but like, know, is.

但事实上，加密货币是第一个具有反向配置参数的资产类别。

But like the realty is like crypto is this very very first asset class, which has an inverse parameter of allocation.

通常情况下，机构总是最先获得一切，而散户只能分到一点残羹剩饭。

Normally institution gets the first shot at everything, and then retail can get a little bit of the crumbs.

但在这个特定情况下，情况恰恰相反：散户市场最先获得了所有机会，而机构则在追赶。

And in this specific case, it is exactly the opposite, where the retail market got everything first, and institution are playing catch up.

因此，他们需要更快地追赶，因为通常他们是主导时机的一方，而现在同样的市场已经走在了他们前面。

So they need to play catch up even faster, because normally they're the one dictating the timing, and now the same market is moving ahead of them.

所以机构并不习惯被散户市场驱动，也不习惯被迫跟随散户的步伐。

So there's a little bit of a kind of a So institution are not used to be driven by the retail market, and to have to react to the retail tempo.

如果你还记得GameStop的疫情事件，当时机构都一致认为：哦，GameStop只是昙花一现。

If you remember the COVID event with GameStop, the institution were like all saying, oh yeah, GameStop is just a fade.

你撑不了几秒钟就会崩盘。

You're just gonna you're gonna stop in five seconds.

然后他们被散户市场碾压，散户说：你想玩？那我们就玩。

And then they get run over by retail market who say, you want to play, we're gonna play.

因为整个散户市场都待在家里无所事事，于是心想：好吧，我们可以找点乐子。

Because the entire retail market was sitting at home doing nothing, and say okay, well we can have a bit of fun.

有时候我觉得，传统机构根本没准备好理解，通过Robinhood这类平台，散户已经拥有了如此强大的自主交易能力，这极大地 democratized（普及化）了对资本市场的准入。

And it's like sometimes, I would say the old institution in mind is not ready to understand how powerful the retail market has become through this kind of effectively self directed trading capacity, which is available to them through Robinhood or all this kind of platform, which has democratizing massively the access to capital market.

是的。

Yeah.

我想跳回我们之前讨论过的数字资产储备公司的话题，你提到市场疲软、溢价很高，而它们持有大量比特币或底层资产。

I want to kind of jump over or back to the conversation that we kind of had about the digital asset treasury companies and you talking about the weakness in the market, huge premium, and they were long Bitcoin or the underlying.

现在这笔交易中，它们实际上是在平仓空头，这意味着它们可能会买回这些数字资产储备公司。

And now that trade, they're essentially, you know, covering their short, which implies that they might be buying back the digital asset treasury companies.

你觉得这笔押注是熊市的开端吗？是因为这个交易导致的吗？

What's you know, do you think that this bet is it the start are we at the start of a bear market because of this trade?

还是说，你认为我们仍可能看到一些乐观的局部行情？

Or do you think that, you know, we could have pockets of optimism?

市场中这些乐观的迹象可能在哪里？

Where might those pockets of optimism in the market be?

不。

No.

不。

No.

我认为有两种不同的叙事，它们在某种程度上是相互冲突的。

I I think there is two different narrative, you know, effectively conflict conflicting in some way.

一方面，宏观趋势非常清晰，所有宏观趋势的信号都一致表明比特币应该上涨。

On the one hand, the macro trend are clear are very, very clear, and all the signal on the macro trend are kind of aligned to explain that Bitcoin should be should go higher.

你知道，现在看看黄金的故事。

You know, you see the story around gold right now.

它正在做着它本该做的事情。

It is kind of like exactly what is is doing exactly what it should be doing.

比特币也应该有同样的历程。

And Bitcoin should have the same journey.

现在的问题是，存在这种宏观趋势，而在这一趋势内部，你会遇到一些更偏向战术而非战略的微观层面因素。

Now the problem is, there is this kind of macro trend, and then within this trend, you end up to have some micro level elements, which are much more tactical than strategic.

因此，在所有这些围绕宏观的讨论中，可以说比特币应该是对冲货币贬值的配置因素，即数字黄金叙事。

And so among all this kind of trend around macro, say okay, Bitcoin should be an allocation factor for the debasement trade, the digital goal narrative.

所有这些叙事——债务抛售、政府支出——我们都非常熟悉，它们已被反复解释，而且情况正变得越来越糟。

All the narratives, the debt selling, the government spending, all this kind of narrative we know very, very well, and which has been explained at length, and which is only getting worse and worse.

因此，从这个角度来看，大的趋势正在占上风。

And so, from that perspective, the big one trend is winning.

然而，这个大趋势也正受到一些更局部因素的冲击，比如当前旅程中的美国国债公司交易的平仓。

Now, the big one trend is also suffering from the kind of much more local factors, And the local factors on the journey right now for instance is like the unwinding of its treasury company trade.

比如，每个曾经买入某种微观策略可转换债券的人，同时也做空了相关股票。

Like everybody who bought a convert on some micro strategy or something else at some point was also short of the stock.

因此，市场上有很多空头在押注与这种数字资产国债公司相关的波动性。

So there is plenty of short in the market who were playing for the volatility associated with this digital asset treasury company.

当溢价——即国债公司价格与其净资产价值之间的差额——崩溃至零时，空头部分就会受到冲击。

The short element of it, when the premium collapse, which is basically the delta between the price the treasury company and this NAV, is collapsing to zero.

那时，持有比特币多头、国债公司空头头寸的人需要平仓以实现利润。

At that point, the people who are holding the effectively long Bitcoin short treasury company position need to unwind the trade to capture the profit.

而这正是目前正在发生的事情。

And that's exactly what's happening right now.

因此，你面对的是一个在宏观层面上拥有非常强大叙事前景的市场。

So you have like a market which I would say in a secular manner has some very very good narrative playing in front of him and ahead of him.

但与此同时，它又受到市场平仓和市场疲软的双重影响。

At the same time he's suffering from this kind of unwinding in the market and this kind of softening in the market at the same time.

因此，你不能把当前的技术性问题误认为是叙事的破裂或旅程的终结。

So you need not to confuse is the journey broken or is the narrative broken with kind of the technicality of the moment.

而眼下，这种技术性问题是由近期的交易预警、市场流动性缺失、美国市场停摆等因素交织在一起，共同造成了我们目前看到的疲软态势。

And yeah, right now there's a technicality which has been driven by, you know, recent warning of the trade, the absence of liquidity in the market, the shutdown in The US, all this stuff commingling, creating effectively the weakness we're seeing right now.

哇。

Wow.

说得非常好。

Very well said.

是的。

Yeah.

就像总是需要跳出来看。

It's like always have to zoom out.

对吧？

Right?

比如，想想降息，还有量化紧缩的放缓，所有这些正在发生的事情，不仅在美国，而且在全球范围内。

Like, think the the rate cuts and, you know, the lack of or or the the winding down of the quantitative tightening and, all these things that are happening, not just in The US, but globally.

但你看，你说得完全对。

But look, I you're absolutely right.

但我敢保证，周一早上我们醒来时，迈克尔·塞尔勒会宣布在市场疲软之际大量买入比特币。

But I guarantee you on Monday morning, we're gonna wake up in The US, and Michael Seller gonna announce he buy a ton of Bitcoin during this weakening with with weakening moment.

如果你再仔细看，或者再跳出来看，任何持有比特币超过四年的人从未亏过钱。

And, know, if you zoom in again, or zoom out again, anybody who bought Bitcoin for more than four years never lost money.

所以问题在于，你是否真的想通过日内交易比特币，如果是的话，你可能正处于不利位置。

So it's a question of like, are you, you know, yes, if you try to day trade Bitcoin, you probably are in a bad position.

是的，如果你杠杆用得太高，那你很可能处于不利位置。

Yes, if you are leveraging yourself way too much, you're probably in a bad position.

但你知道，比特币的核心原则就是：长期来看，会被无数人以无杠杆的方式持有。

But you know, the very principle of Bitcoin is like Bitcoin gonna be old long term unleveraged by many, many people.

你知道，其他任何东西都会下跌。

You know, so anything else And down.

真正重要的是这段旅程。

Really matters the journey.

这很有趣，因为除了这段旅程，其他一切都不重要，但还存在一个完整的生态系统。

It's funny because like, you know, everything else doesn't matter in the journey, but there's a whole other ecosystem.

我想我们一开始聊的就是，你不能只做比特币 maximalist。

I think we even started the conversation was you can't just be a Bitcoin Maxi.

你必须拓宽视野，理解还有这些其他的加密生态系统。

You have to kind of extend your view and understand there's all these other, you know, crypto ecosystems.

那么，你认为山寨币的未来会怎样？

So So so what do you think the future for Altcoins is?

CoinShares 会涉足山寨币吗？

And does CoinShares dabble in Altcoins at all?

首先，如果你想成为比特币最大化主义者，那是完全可以的。

Well, first of all, you can be a Bitcoin Maxi if you want to.

成为比特币最大化主义者并没有什么错。

There is no nothing wrong with being a Bitcoin Maxi.

也有很多黄金支持者。

There is plenty of gold bug as well.

这取决于你想要在生活中享受多少乐趣，你知道的。

It's a, know, it's a it's a it's a it depends how much you want to have a pleasure in life, know.

但如果你想真正震撼一下自己，就必须深入山寨币的叙事，意识到除了比特币之外还有这么多东西正在兴起。

But if you want to really blow your mind, you have to get into the, into the Alcone narrative and realize that there is all this stuff but Bitcoin to start to play back.

但归根结底，山寨币的表现需要用比特币作为基准来衡量。

But at the end of the day, the Alcone need to be measured at the light of the benchmark, which need to be Bitcoin.

所以如果你用美元来衡量你的山寨币表现，那当然不错，但你真正需要的是用你的内部基准——也就是比特币——来衡量它。

So if you measure your Altcoin performance against dollar, yeah, okay, great, but you really need to measure it against your internal benchmark, which is to be Bitcoin.

因此，CoinShares 一直在涉足以太坊等山寨币产品。

And so, you know, CoinShare has been dabbling into We offer products in Alcoin.

我们是第一个上市以太坊的公司。

We were the first one to list Ethereum.

我们是欧洲首批推出众多山寨币产品的公司，将这些产品带入市场。

We were the first one to list many, many products in Europe to bring that to the market.

我们还将质押服务引入市场，作为这一叙事的一部分。

We bring staking to the market as well as part of that narrative.

实际上，我们在欧洲的质押服务比美国做得更好，因为我们不需要为质押奖励支付股息。

Actually do staking a bit better in Europe than in The US, where we don't have to pay a dividend of the staking reward.

这种机制自然地融入了我们的产品中。

It kind of naturally embedded in the products.

因此，用户只需获得公司收益即可。

So people just get the corporate.

产品本身既带来资本增值，也产生收入。

There's a capital gain appreciation that itself and income.

关于这一点，这对投资者来说是更好的税务结构。

On that, which is a better tax structure for investors.

但总体而言，我们一直关注新事物，我们的研究团队一直在关注Hyperliquid，也在研究许多不同的代币。

But overall, know, like we were always looking at new things, know, like we've been very, you know, our research team was looking at hyper liquid, our research team been looking at many, many different tokens.

所以我们对这个叙事非常感兴趣。

So we are kind of like very interesting in the the narrative.

你知道，我们从2021年那种每个人都在与其他区块链对立中构建的时期，走到了现在。

And you know, we went from, I would say a 2021 era where everybody was building much more by opposition to another blockchain.

当时团队对这个区块链并不满意。

It was like the team wasn't satisfied with this blockchain.

所以他们分拆出来创建新的东西，因为觉得那样更好或更不同。

So they spin out to create something else because it was like that better or that different.

而现在，我们正处在一个人们真正构建可用且具有实际用途的产品的时代。

And now we're really in an era where people are really building products and stuff which are usable and have a utility or a real kind of utility.

因此，这变得非常有趣，而且你看到所有传统资产开始注入DeFi，这也非常有意思。

So it's become very very interesting and you know the way you see all traditional assets not starting to be injected into DeFi is also very interesting.

你可以看到，代币化正缓慢但坚定地成为金融服务的后台和中台。

And you can see how tokenization slowly but surely gonna become the back and middle office of financial servicing.

我喜欢这个观点。

I love it.

好吧，让-玛丽，我还有一个最后的问题，这更偏向于心理和个人成长层面。

Well Jean Marie, I've got one final question for you, and it's a little bit more of a, a psychological, personal journey kind of question.

但你知道，你一直在对冲基金行业，就像你所说的，已经很久了，还管理过上市公司。

But, you know, you've been in the hedge fund business, you know, obviously, like you said, for for for a long time, you know, run public companies.

我们很多交易员都有压力和情绪，无论是兴奋还是沮丧，都与市场行情紧密相关，无论是山寨币还是比特币。

And a lot of us traders are you know, we have our stress and our emotion, euphoria or depression tied to the price of the market, whether it's altcoins or Bitcoin.

我经常被问到的一个问题是：当你深深沉浸于加密市场时，你如何管理、衡量或确保自己的情绪稳定？

And a question I get a lot of the times is just how do you manage, how do you measure, or make sure your your emotions are measured, when you're just so steeped in crypto markets?

你是如何个人应对的？

How do you handle it personally?

simply don't have emotion.

Just don't have emotion.