第699期：与Bitfinex的Jesse Knutson探讨代币化证券与全球加密货币采用

如果你现在只能买一种山寨币，就买这个。

If you could only get one altcoin right now, get this one.

我谈的是我们认为在当今市场中上涨潜力最强的币种。

I'm talking about the coin we believe has the strongest upside potential in today's market.

在分析了数百种山寨币之后，朋友们，这个机会让我整夜兴奋得睡不着。

After analyzing hundreds of altcoins, guys, this is the opportunity that keeps me awake with excitement all night.

所以原因如下。

So here's why.

它拥有强大的基本面、可靠的团队，以及一个可能在未来几个月内推动其大幅上涨的催化剂。

It's got the perfect combination of strong fundamentals, proven team, and a catalyst that could send it significantly higher in the coming months.

然而，它仍被许多散户投资者忽视，这意味着你还有时间在大众发现之前建仓。

Yet it's still flying under the radar of many retail investors, which means you still got time to get position before the crowd catches on.

听好了，我们相信现在正是入手这种特定币种的完美时机。

Look, we believe this is the perfect time to get in on this specific coin.

所以，要获取完整分析，请立即访问 www.cryptorevolution.com/coin。

So to get the full breakdown, just go to www.cryptorevolution.com/coin right now.

机会之窗不会永远敞开。

The window of opportunity will not stay open forever.

欢迎收听由Gemini赞助的Crypto 101播客，这里是通往未来货币的桥梁。

Welcome to the Crypto 101 podcast presented by Gemini, your bridge to the future of money.

好了，各位。

Alright, everyone.

我们邀请到了杰西·努特森。

We are joined by Jesse Knutson.

他是Bitfinex Securities的运营主管。

He is the head of operations at Bitfinex Securities.

杰西，欢迎你，很高兴你能来。

Jesse, welcome, and it's good to have you.

很好。

Great.

很高兴能来到这里。

That's great to be here.

谢谢邀请我。

Thanks for having me.

当然。

Absolutely.

非常感谢你来参加。

We appreciate you coming on here.

真有趣。

It's funny.

在我们开始之前，我刚和杰西聊过，我当时问他：你是从哪里连线的？

I was talking to Jesse just before we began, and I was like, where are you coming in from?

因为现在我这边是起床时间，正在做这个节目，是早晨。

Because I'm waking up the time of of making this, and it's it's morning time.

我这边是早上8点。

It's, like, 8AM over here.

他回答说：是啊。

And he's like, yeah.

我正准备休息了。

I'm getting ready to to wind down.

那边已经是晚上10点了，所以我们真的很感谢你参与。

It's 10PM over in there, so we really do appreciate you coming on.

嗯。

Yeah.

没问题。

No problem.

嗯。

Yeah.

真是时差相反啊，老兄。

At opposite hours, man.

从台湾远道而来。

All the way from Taiwan.

对吧？

Right?

嗯。

Yeah.

嗯。

Yeah.

实际上，我现在在台湾待的时间比在加拿大还长。

And I've actually been in Taiwan now longer than I was ever in Canada.

所以我是加拿大人。

So I'm Canadian.

我在台湾已经待了二十五年了。

I've been in Taiwan twenty five years.

这超过了我生命的一半以上，真是挺超现实的。

So more than more than half my life, which is pretty surreal.

是什么让你留在那里？

What what's keeping you over there?

是天气、社区，还是加密自由？

Is it the weather, the community or the crypto freedom?

是啊，有妻子、孩子、狗和房子。

Yeah, the wife, the kids, the dogs, the house.

这就足够了。

That'll do it.

现在就是这样了。

That's what it is now.

最初，我大学毕业时，是为了学习中文。

Originally, when I graduated from university, was to learn Chinese.

那是很久以前的事了，但当时一位教授给我的建议证明非常正确。

That was a long time ago and turned out to be pretty good advice from a professor that I had at the time.

是啊。

Yeah.

哇，伙计。

Wow, man.

那太棒了。

Well, that's awesome.

这些也都是非常好的理由。

Those are all really good reasons too.

而且，据我所知，那是个非常适合居住的地方。

And, you know, from what I've heard, it's it's a beautiful place to live.

但不管怎样，我们还是很感谢你这么晚还加入我们。

But, you know, nonetheless, we appreciate you hopping on with here later at night.

对于不了解的人，杰西在加密货币领域有着深厚的背景，不仅参与了加密领域最早、最知名的品牌之一，还属于 arguably 最大的生态系统之一。

For for people who don't know, Jesse has a big background when it comes to not only crypto and obviously playing a role in one of the, like, oldest, most popular names in crypto and being part of, you know, arguably one of the largest ecosystems.

你拥有iFinex生态系统，这可以说是Bitfinex证券、Bitfinex交易所、Tether以及其他加密生态系统中诸多关键组成部分的母公司。

You have the iFinex ecosystem, which is kinda like the parent company to Bitfinex Securities and Bitfinex the exchange and Tether and and all these other critical parts of the crypto ecosystem.

所以这很酷，因为根据你的背景，我们可以从几个不同的视角来看待问题。

And so it's cool because I think we get a view from a couple different perspectives given your background.

但简单给我们做个介绍吧。

But, you know, just give us an intro.

介绍一下你自己，你是怎么开始的，是什么让你最初进入加密领域的，然后我们再继续往下聊。

Give us an intro to yourself and what got you started and what brought you into crypto in the first place, and we'll move from there.

是的。

Yeah.

我的背景，正如你所说，是在传统金融领域。

I mean, my my background, as you said, is in traditional finance.

所以我最初来台湾是为了学习中文，就像我们开头说的那样，是的。

So I came over to Taiwan initially to to learn Chinese, as we said at the beginning Yeah.

是跟一位教授学的。

On a from a from a professor.

后来我在海峡两岸都工作过。

Did that ended up working on both sides of the strait.

所以我在大陆待了一段时间，在中国和台湾学习，不知不觉进入了投资银行行业。

So in China for a bit, studied in China and Taiwan, kind of found my way, fell into investment banking, actually.

当时他们需要能说中文的人，可以与公司沟通，也能与主要位于海外的客户交流。

So they needed people that could speak Chinese, they could talk to companies, and then also could talk to clients that were mostly overseas.

所以我曾在巴克莱从事销售与交易工作，后来在麦格理担任麦格理在台湾的股权资本市场主管。

So I worked for Barclays in sales and trading, and then later worked at Macquarie, was head of ECM for Macquarie here in Taiwan.

在那段时间里，我对比特币产生了兴趣。

And during that period, got interested in Bitcoin.

我想，这很大程度上是因为金融危机后的余波，以及与客户、同事的交流，我一直在思考：这些问题到底怎么才能不继续恶化？最终难道不会以灾难收场吗？

So I guess a lot of it was around the fallout from the financial crisis and talking to clients, talking to coworkers, and just constantly trying to figure out, you know, how, how, how does this not continue to, you know, how does this not end in tears eventually?

金融危机中暴露出的那些问题，似乎根本没有得到真正解决。

It didn't feel like any of the problems that blew up during the financial crisis were actually actually solved.

因此，我们一直在寻找不同的资产和有趣的事物，希望能填补这个谜题的空白。

And so we were always kind of looking around for different assets and, you know, different interesting things that could kind of fit into that puzzle.

然后我们偶然发现了比特币。

And we just stumbled across Bitcoin.

当时我很幸运，和麦格理的另一位同事，以及摩根大通的一位同事，我们都在巴克莱工作。

And I was lucky to have, you know, another coworker at Macquarie at the time, we were at Barclays at the time and a guy at JP Morgan.

我们一起深入研究，开始了解比特币并理解它。

And we kind of dug into it together and began to learn about Bitcoin and understand it.

最终，我逐渐成了银行里的‘比特币专家’，积极推动这些理念并开展各种相关工作。

And then eventually began to be the, you know, the Bitcoin guy within the bank and pushing all of these ideas and doing different things.

通过这种方式，我得以利用银行的名义结识了许多人。

And through that, I was able to kind of leverage the bank's name and meet a lot of people.

在2016年或2017年，我们在麦格理的香港办公室举办了一场会议。

And, you know, in 2016 or '17, we did a conference in Hong Kong in the Macquarie office.

摩根大通在做区块链，而不是比特币。

JPMorgan was doing blockchain, not Bitcoin.

而我们做的是比特币，不是区块链。

And we did Bitcoin, not blockchain.

我们邀请了亚当·巴克，以及当时泰达和Bitfinex的首席执行官JL。

And we had Adam Back, we had the CEO of Tether and Bitfinex at the time, JL.

我们请来了许多行业内的重量级人物，参加了一场面向约70名机构投资者的闭门会议并发表演讲。

We had a ton of people that were like really big names in the industry and came by and spoke to a closed closed door meeting of maybe 70 institutional investors.

我们做了很多类似的事情。

Did a bunch of stuff like that.

我想，我们在2018年成为了首家投资比特币挖矿公司的西方银行。

We we made the first investment into a bitcoin mining company, I think, by a by a western bank in in 2018.

但市场见顶后，很明显，公司内部对对比特币做任何其他事情的兴趣已经不复存在了。

But after the market kind of peaked, it was clear that, you know, the appetite within the firm to do anything else in Bitcoin was just not there anymore.

所以我决定投身这个行业。

So I decided to jump into the industry.

我找到了通往Blockstream的路。

I found my way over to Blockstream.

我和Samson Mo是朋友。

I was friends with Samson Mo.

他把我介绍给了Adam，我之前在那个会议上也见过他，后来我加入Blockstream担任金融产品副总裁。

He introduced me to Adam, who had also met at that conference previously, joined there as VP of Financial Products.

我们开始打造一系列基于比特币、由比特币和比特币挖矿支持的产品。

And we started putting together different products built on Bitcoin and backed by Bitcoin and Bitcoin mining.

第一个是Blockstream挖矿票据，之后我最终来到了Bitfinex Securities。

The first of which was the Blockstream mining note, And then eventually found my way over to Bitfinex Securities.

有趣的是，尤其是JPMorgan的这个故事，因为他们最近几周在Jamie Dimon的采访中已经完全反转了，他说自己错了。

And it's funny, especially that JPMorgan story because they've come full circle with that Jamie Dimon interview a couple of weeks back where he's like, was wrong.

它会一直存在。

It's here to stay.

它是真实的。

It's real.

我们曾经有过这样一个时刻，就连吉米·戴蒙这样曾经最看空的人，也开始转变态度了。

And we had this kind of, like, moment where it's like even Jamie Dimon, who's been one of the biggest bears, like, even he's come around.

我相信你已经见过更多这样的情况，因为你和这些人都聊过。

And I'm sure you've seen a lot more of this where you've talked to a lot of these people.

他们当时并不感兴趣。

They weren't as interested.

快进到2025年，现在确实感觉他们某种程度上已经回到了原点。

Fast forward to the 2025 now, and it does kind of feel like they've come full circle to a degree.

是的。

Yeah.

我完全同意。

I I think a 100%.

我的意思是，在之前的周期里，比如2017年，那时围绕比特币分叉等事件确实让人感到恐惧，因为当时比特币似乎面临存亡危机。

I mean, in those previous cycles, you know, 2017, those were those were kind of scary times around the Bitcoin fork and all of that, because it did feel quite existential to Bitcoin.

当比特币在2017年大幅下跌时，人们仍然说它会归零，已经完了。

And when Bitcoin rolled over hard in 2017, you know, people were still saying, you know, it's going go to zero, it's over.

再快进到2021年。

Fast forward to 2021.

从那以后，就再也没有人说比特币会归零了。

And then, you know, since then nobody says that bitcoin is going to go to zero anymore.

你根本听不到这种说法了。

You just you don't hear that.

所以我觉得情况真的发生了巨大变化。

So I think things have really changed a lot.

在证券通证化方面，我们自2021年获得牌照以来就一直在Bitfinex证券业务领域深耕。

And then on the security tokenization side, know we've been Bitfinex securities, we've been in this business since 2021 when we first got our license.

即使当时我们向监管机构推介这项业务时，他们虽然觉得这个想法不错，但也有些怀疑，认为这只是一个有趣的想法。

And you know, even then when we spoke to our regulator and we're kind of pitching the business, I think they liked the idea but they were somewhat skeptical, you know, they thought it was an interesting idea.

你知道吗，我最近去了哈萨克斯坦，那是我们受监管的司法管辖区之一，监管机构非常高兴，因为他们现在已成为证券代币框架的全球领导者。

You know, I was over recently in Istanak, Istanakazikstan where one of the jurisdictions where we're regulated and the regulators are, you know, very happy that they now have a, you know, they're a global leader in security token frameworks.

所以一切都发生了巨大变化，我认为其中很大一部分原因是，传统金融界已经普遍接受了我们几年前的观点。

So everything has changed a lot and I think a lot of it is, you know, traditional finance has really kind of consensus has really caught up to this view that we had a couple of years ago.

你有兴趣轻松增加你的比特币投资组合吗？

Are you interested in effortlessly growing your Bitcoin portfolio?

当然有兴趣。

I sure am.

Gemini信用卡让你在每笔消费中都能赚取比特币返现。

The Gemini credit card earns you Bitcoin back on every purchase.

就像使用其他信用卡一样，当你买午餐、加油，甚至每周买杂货时，你都能立即获得高达4%的比特币或其他50多种加密货币返现，直接打入你的账户。

Use it just like any other credit card when you buy lunch, gas, or even just your weekly groceries, and you'll earn up to 4% back instantly in Bitcoin or one of over 50 other cryptos straight to your account.

所有这些都免年费，而且现在你可以领取200美元的比特币欢迎奖金。

All that with no annual fee, and right now you can grab a $200 Bitcoin welcome bonus.

这是开始积累你的比特币资产的最简单方式。

It's the easiest way to start building your Bitcoin stack.

各位，我们每期节目都会提到Gemini，我们非常感谢他们作为赞助商，因为我们确实使用他们的产品，无论是交易平台还是信用卡。

Guys, you've heard us talk about Gemini now every single episode, and we love and appreciate that they've been a sponsor because we use their products, whether it's the exchange or the card.

他们在这个领域长期处于领先地位。

They have been leaders in the space for so long.

所以，如果你希望在日常消费中赚取加密货币奖励，请前往 gemini.com/card 了解更多信息。

So if you're interested in earning crypto rewards for your everyday spending, go to gemini.com/card to learn more.

条款适用。

Terms apply.

有关利率和费用的更多信息，请参见描述中的链接。

See the link in the description for more information regarding rates and fees.

由WebBank发行。

Issued by WebBank.

要符合200美元加密货币入门奖励资格，您必须在前90天内消费3000美元。

To qualify for the $200 crypto intro bonus, you must spend $3,000 in your first ninety days.

部分即时奖励有例外情况。

Some exclusions to instant rewards apply.

这不是投资建议，加密货币交易存在风险。

This is not investment advice and trading crypto involves risk.

请访问 Gemini 网站了解有关费率和费用的更多详情。

Check Gemini's website for more details on rates and fees.

新年通常意味着新设备。

New Year usually means new devices.

从祖父母的手机、笔记本电脑、平板电脑，到孩子们的设备，或者至少是更多地在线活动。

Phones, laptops, tablets from grandma all the way down to the kids, or at least spending more time online.

这提醒了我重新思考数字安全的重要性。

That's been a good reminder to actually think about digital security again.

我一直在使用 Webroot，特别是他们的全方位保护计划，如果你需要的不仅仅是防病毒功能，这是一个一体化的选择。

I've been using Webroot, specifically their total protection plan, which is an all in one option if you want coverage beyond just antivirus.

让我印象深刻的是，它结合了实时防病毒保护，防范恶意软件和网络钓鱼骗局，身份监控与警报，更重要的是，如果发生身份盗用，最高可报销 100 万美元的符合条件的自付费用。

What stood out to me is that it combines real time antivirus protection against things like malware and phishing scams, identity monitoring with alerts, and this is a big one, up to $1,000,000 in expense reimbursement for eligible out of pocket costs if identity theft ever becomes an issue.

全方位保护还包括密码管理器和网络威胁防护工具，可在你访问前阻止恶意网站，此外还提供保护多台设备甚至家庭成员的选项，且不会拖慢你的系统速度或频繁弹出广告。

Total protection also includes tools like a password manager and web threat protection that blocks malicious sites before you visit them, plus options to protect multiple devices and even family members, all without slowing your system down or throwing constant pop ups at you.

所以情况是这样的。

So here's the deal.

新年，新设备。

New year, new device.

无论你是升级科技产品还是继续使用现有的设备，现在正是以六折优惠使用Webroot值得信赖的网络安全解决方案保护所有设备的好时机。

Whether you're upgrading tech or sticking with what you've got, now's the time to protect all your devices at 60% off with Webroot's trusted cybersecurity solutions.

访问 webroot.com/crypto101，享受六折优惠。

Visit webroot.com/crypto101 and get 60% off.

再次提醒，是 webroot.com，webroot.com/crypto101，享六折优惠。

Again, that's webroot.com, webroot.com/crypto101 for 60% off.

此优惠仅通过 crypto101 链接提供，因此请务必使用它：webroot.com/crypto101，享受高达六折的总保护计划优惠。今年，选择适合你的保护方案，与 Webroot 一起享受更美好的数字生活。

This offer is only available through the crypto101 link, so make sure you use it webroot.com/crypto101 and get up to 60% off their total protection plan This year, choose protection that's right for you and live a better digital life with Webroot.

当然。

Absolutely.

我想深入探讨这些内容，进一步聊聊。

And I wanna get into all of that and talk more about that.

但让我们先来介绍一下Bitfinex证券，因为我们有全球观众。

But let's first go through Bitfinex securities because we have a global audience.

我们的一些用户已经使用过Bitfinex交易所。

We've had probably a handful of our users go through and use the Bitfinex exchange.

我们的许多用户可能在某个时候与Tether有过互动。

We've had a lot of our users probably interact with Tether at one point or another.

但今天我们在这里主要讨论的是Bitfinex证券。

But we're here to talk about Bitfinex securities here.

所以请给我们做一个高层次的概述，以及它如何融入整个iPhoneX生态系统。

So give us the high level overview and and how it fits into the whole iPhoneX ecosystem.

是的，Bitfinex证券是Tether和Bitfinex集团旗下的RWA和STO平台。

Yeah, Bitfinex Securities is the RWA and STO platform within the Tether and Bitfinex group of companies.

我们主要开展两项核心业务。

And we do kind of two core businesses.

我们进行首次发行，并提供二级市场交易。

We do primary offerings and we offer secondary market trading.

我们整个高层理念是让投资者和发行方更直接地接触，消除所有中间环节，使双方能够更直接、高效、快速且低成本地互动。

So our whole kind of very high level idea is to put investors and issuers in much more direct contact to kind of take out all of the middlemen and let them interact a lot more directly, efficiently and faster and cheaper.

与此相关的是，Tether 去年还推出了代币化业务 Hadron。

And then kind of along that, well, Tether last year also announced the tokenization business, Hadron.

因此，我们确实具备代币化的能力，并能协助发行方管理他们自己的代币。

So there are default for actually doing tokenization and for working with issuers to let the issuers manage their own tokens.

一旦这些代币创建完成，就会进入 Bitfinex Securities 平台，我们可以在此进行融资并为人们开放二级市场。

Once those tokens are created, they come on to Bitfinex Securities, and then we can do capital raises and open up secondary markets for people.

是的，代币化已经爆炸式增长。

Yeah, I mean, tokenization has exploded.

在我们进行的每一次访谈中，似乎都有来自行业各处的嘉宾说：你必须关注代币化。

And it feels like every other interview we have, we have guests from all over the industry saying, like, you gotta pay attention to tokenization.

当然，你有拉里·芬克在谈论它，有戴蒙德，还有来自 Robin Hood 的弗拉德·特内夫，以及来自传统金融领域的其他众多大佬。

And, you know, obviously, you have Larry Fink talking about it and Diamond, and you have Vlad Tenev from Robin Hood, and you have all these other big guys who are from the trad fight side.

他们都说：没错。

And they're all like, yeah.

我的意思是，我们认为这是未来，我们希望接入其中。

I mean, we think this is the future, and we wanna get plugged into it.

你认为在代币化过程中，最值得关注或最重要的部分是什么？

What do you think are the most impactful or important parts of tokenization to watch out for?

是的。

Yeah.

我认为这根本不用多想。

I think it's a no brainer really.

我的意思是，我认为这绝对是市场最终发展的方向。

Mean, and I think that this is definitely the way that markets move eventually.

我认为这几乎是不可避免的。

I think it's probably somewhat inevitable.

你知道，如果你看看代币化对投资者或交易者、对大机构的好处，比如实时结算，还有24/7、365天全天候交易。

You know, if you look at the benefits of tokenization for investors or for traders, for big guys, think it's things like real time settlement, you know, and 20 fourseven, three sixty five trading.

我整个金融生涯都是在台湾度过的。

You know, in my whole finance career was here in Taiwan.

如果你在周五卖出台积电股票，结算周期是T+2。

If you sell your TSMC on Friday, it's T plus two settlement.

你要等到下一周才能拿到现金，对吧？

You don't get your cash until the following week, right?

所以如果你是对冲基金，你希望尽快拿到资金。

So if you're a hedge fund, you want to get your funds as soon as possible.

如果是实时结算，那就太好了。

If it's real time settlement, that's great.

这样你就可以再次循环使用这些资金。

Then you can go back and churn it again.

你知道，最近我们看到比特币的情况，人们在周六抛售比特币，因为那是他们能卖出的时间，对吧？

And you know, part of the reason we've seen this with Bitcoin recently, people dump Bitcoin on Saturday because that's what they can sell, right?

没错。

Yep.

但我相信人们更愿意在有实际新闻的时候卖出资产。

But I'm sure people would prefer to sell the stuff where there's actually news.

所以，如果涉及中国、供应链之类的情况，他们想卖出苹果股票，他们更愿意直接进行交易。

So if it's, you know, whatever it's, it's something about, you know, China, the supply chain, they want to sell their Apple stock, they'd much rather do to trade that more directly.

所以我认为这些是优势。

So I think those are the benefits.

因此，随着时间推移，可能会吸引大玩家加入。

So probably pull in the big guys over time.

对于投资者来说，我认为这是重新掌握对自身资产的控制权，对吧？

For investors, I think it's regaining more control over your assets, right?

我认为这是我们与许多传统金融玩家做法之间的关键区别之一。

And I think this is one of the ways that we differentiate what we're doing with what a lot of the kind of the TradFi players are doing.

市面上有很多花言巧语和障眼法。

You know, there's a lot of smoke and mirrors out there.

我认为有很多代币化操作。

I think there's a lot of token tokenization.

我认为其中一件重要的事是，投资者能够将他们的资产从平台上提取出来。

I think one of the important things is that investors are able to take their assets off the platform.

他们能够自我托管，能够进行点对点交易，将其转移到其他平台或进行套利。

They're able to self custody that you're able to trade a peer to peer, ping it to other platforms or arbitrage.

我认为这些都是对投资者的好处，让人们对自己的资产有更多的控制权。

I think these are all the benefits for investors and giving people more control over their assets.

然后我认为包容性也是其中非常重要的一部分，对吧？

And then I think also inclusion is a huge part of it, right?

所以对于人们来说，比如你们在北美的很多观众，他们获取美国资产渠道是完全没有问题的。

So for people, you know, like a lot of your audience in North America, they have no problem getting access to, you know, U.

公开股票或类似的东西。

Public equities or stuff like that.

世界上有些地区在这方面比较困难。

Some parts of the world struggle.

所以我认为，就像Tether通过为许多新兴市场——你知道，G7之外的中小型国家——提供更好的替代方案而非常成功一样，这也可能成为证券型代币的一大驱动力，即人们无法获得更高质量的投资产品。

So I think, you know, just as Tether was very, very successful by bringing a better alternative to a lot of emerging markets, you know, countries, small and mid sized countries outside of the G7, I think that could be one of the big drivers for security tokens as well, is that people just don't have access to higher quality investment products.

而这些司法管辖区也确实非常渴望资本。

And those jurisdictions they also really are really hungry for capital.

银行根本不放贷，这对整个经济产生了连锁影响。

Like the banks just don't lend and that has knock on effects throughout their whole economy.

所以我认为，这是一些未来有趣的潜在应用。

So I think that's kind of some of the interesting applications for it going forward.

是的。

Yeah.

你认为代币化在世界不同地区扮演的角色是否有所不同？

Do you think that tokenization has, a different role depending on maybe where you are in the world?

因为看起来情况确实如此。

Because it kind of seems like that's the case.

我想这很合理。

And I guess that makes sense.

对吧？

Right?

你知道，不同地区的需求各不相同，但听起来我们正朝着这个方向发展。

You know, There's all sorts of different needs depending upon where you are, but it kind of sounds like that's what we're getting towards.

是的，百分之百。

Yeah, 100%.

我认为你面对的是不同的司法管辖区。

I think you've got these different jurisdictions.

我们获得了两个在传统金融领域被认为是边缘司法管辖区的许可。

So we're licensed in two kind of what people in traditional finance would say are peripheral jurisdictions.

我们在阿斯塔纳国际金融中心（AIFC）注册，这是位于中亚哈萨克斯坦伊斯坦布尔的一个金融中心。

We're in the AIFC, which is a financial center in Istanbul, Kazakhstan in Central Asia.

然后我们在萨尔瓦多获得了第一个牌照。

And then we have the first license in El Salvador.

我们拿到了第一号牌照，这挺酷的。

We have license one, which is pretty cool.

这两个司法管辖区的共同点是，它们都有非常明智的领导层。

What both of those jurisdictions have in common is that they've got pretty smart leadership.

政策制定者对这项技术很熟悉。

The policymakers are familiar with the technology.

他们对比特币很熟悉。

They're familiar with Bitcoin.

在哈萨克斯坦，你知道，多年来它一直是巨大的挖矿中心，对吧？

In Kazakhstan, you know, that was a huge mining hub for a number of years, right?

他们曾是全球算力第二或第三的国家。

They were, I think number two or three for global hash rate.

所以那里的人都看到比特币变得非常庞大，挖矿也变得非常重要，对经济产生了积极影响。

So people there saw Bitcoin become very big, mining become very big, become accretive to the economy.

因此，他们并不担心比特币会不会归零，这类想法根本不在他们的考虑范围内。

So they didn't have those worries about like what if bitcoin goes to zero, that kind of wasn't their thinking on it.

而萨尔瓦多的情况则非常独特，有一位非常年轻的总统，他对如何带领国家走出过去的困境有着清晰的见解。

And then of course El Salvador is a very very unique situation with a very young president who's got kind of a real view on how to pull his country out of the troubles of the past.

所以他们既有远见，又理解这项技术，我认为这与许多七国集团国家大不相同。

So they've got vision and they've got understanding of the technology, which I think is pretty different than a lot of the G7 countries.

而且，他们也没有发达的资本市场。

And then also they don't have capital markets.

因此，这两个司法管辖区的资本市场并不强劲。

So the capital markets in both of those jurisdictions are not strong.

占GDP的比例非常小。

It's a really small percentage of GDP.

所以你不会像在大多数G7国家那样，遭遇来自根深蒂固既得利益者的强烈抵制。

So you don't get that pushback from the really deeply entrenched incumbents that you get in most of the G7.

所以我觉得这真的不一样。

So I think it is really different.

于是，你就会看到更具灵活性的司法管辖区，以及这些商业上可行的监管框架。

And then what's happened is that you get much more flexible jurisdictions, and you get these kind of commercially viable regulatory oversight.

因此，你实际上可以发展业务、做大做强，并希望最终为经济创造价值。

So you could actually grow a business and get big and and, you know, hopefully eventually become accretive to the economy.

是的。

Yeah.

你知道，我对企业界以及其他方面的情况很感兴趣，我的意思是，该怎么说呢？

You know, I'm interested to learn a little bit more about like how the corporate world and the rest like, I mean, how do you say it?

比如，除了美国之外，世界其他地区的公司结构如何看待加密货币？

Like, what is the the the corporate structure from the rest of the world outside of The US kind of look at crypto?

他们是怎么看待它的？

Like, how do they look at it?

他们对它有什么看法？

What do they think of it?

因为在这里，你知道，我来自美国。

Because all the times over here, you know, obviously, I'm from The US.

我们的很多团队成员也都来自美国。

A lot of our team's from The US.

我们和很多人交流，他们总是想谈论这如何影响、涉及或与美国市场相关。

We talk to a lot of people, and they're like, oh, they're always trying to talk about how this affects or impacts or relates to The US market.

我认为你有更多去中心化的视角，因为你与来自世界各地的公司和国家交流，尤其是我们地球另一端的国家。

And I think you have a little bit more of, like, a decentralized view because you talk to companies and countries from all over the world, especially on the other side of the planet from us.

他们的观点是什么？

Like, what are their views?

你认为这和我们在这里听到的美国及传统金融界很多观点一致吗？

Do you think it kind of aligns with a lot of the stuff that we've heard from The US and the traditional financial side over here?

他们关注的是不同的东西，还是同样的东西？

Are they looking at different things, the same things?

你知道，全球范围内的大资金和聪明资金，对于这一切，到底在关注什么？

You know, what is the the the big and the smart money across the planet looking at as it relates to all this?

是的，这是个有趣的问题。

Yeah, it's an interesting question.

我认为，在比特币和加密货币市场中，长期以来一直存在这种分化，可能在过去十年的大部分时间里都是如此。

And I think there's been this kind of diversions in Bitcoin and crypto markets for a long time, for maybe most of the past decade.

如果我们生活在西方国家，大多数西方国家都有丰富的投资选择，还有支付方式，对吧？

And that it's easy, we have a plethora investment options if we're in Western, most Western countries and also payment options, right?

比如，支付根本不是问题。

Like payments are not a problem.

所以在很多这些市场里，我们其实并不需要比特币或泰达币，对吧？

So we don't really need Bitcoin or Tether probably in a lot of these markets, right?

没有它，你也能过得很好。

You can get by just fine without it.

我认为世界其他地区的方法非常务实。

I think the approach from the rest of the world is extremely practical.

我想现在可能对泰达币的反对声音没那么多了，但五六年之前，反对声相当多，主要来自英语国家。

I guess maybe you don't get so much pushback on Tether now, but maybe five or six years ago, there was quite a bit and most of it was from the English speaking world.

在亚洲，尤其是中文-speaking亚洲地区，泰达币长期以来一直非常流行，对吧？

In Asia, especially in Chinese speaking Asia, Tether has been huge for a long time, right?

这是因为泰达币是一种非常有效的工具，对人们来说，它只是一个工具，可以非常快速、自由且少受阻碍地转移资产。

That's because it's a very effective tool because people to them, it's just a tool, they could just move assets around really quickly, really freely and with little hassle.

我认为证券型代币也是如此。

And I think security tokens are the same thing.

人们正难以获得资本，无论你是在中亚还是拉丁美洲，你想创业，银行又不放贷，Bitfinex证券平台说他们可以帮你联系投资者。

It's, you know, people are struggling to access capital, whether you're in Central Asia or you're in Latin America, you want to start a business, the banks aren't lending, Bitfinex security says they can put you in touch with investors.

所以他们其实并不太在意代币化这部分。

So they don't really care too much about the tokenization part.

他们只关心你能否帮助他们筹集资金。

They just care that you can help them raise capital.

我认为投资者也是如此。

And I think investors are a little bit the same too.

投资者关注的是经济收益，而你要将这两者结合起来。

Investors look at the economics and you match those two together.

你可以从这些资产中获得更高的收益，比如我们在平台上提供的微型融资债券。

You can earn a higher yield on some of these, like the micro financing bonds that we have on the platform.

我认为投资者关注的是这些商业机会和一些这类小众资产，这才是吸引他们的原因。

Those are the kinds of things I think investors look at the commercials and some of these kinds of niche assets, and that's what draws them to it.

是的。

Yeah.

我的意思是，放眼未来，你认为最有趣的是什么？

I mean, so looking on the horizon, what do you think the most interesting thing is?

毕竟，现在有这么多不同的推动因素。

Like, there's all these different catalysts.

每个人都很相信，会有一个不同的催化剂，让我们迎来大幅上涨，或者对价格、采用率等其他方面产生重大影响。

Like, everyone believes that there's gonna be a different catalyst that'll kind of cause us to have, you know, big legs up or effect on price or adoption or all these other things.

在你看来，你认为那些尚未发生的最大催化剂是什么？

From your view, what do you think that those biggest catalysts that are kind of yet to happen are?

因为看起来我们似乎仍处于大量建设阶段，许多公司、国家、团体、银行以及其他各方都在说：嘿。

Because it would seem as if we're still in a lot of the build out phase where a lot of these companies and countries and groups and banks and all these different people, they're like, hey.

我们对这个感兴趣。

We're interested in this.

我们想朝这个方向发展，有这么多不同的想法，但你认为未来最有趣的催化剂会是什么？

We wanna build towards this, there's all these different ideas, but what do you think the most interesting catalysts that are yet to come?

是的，我认为这部分只是个持续的过程，对吧？

Yeah, I think part of this is just a grind, right?

这只是一个趋势，它正在显现，每天都在努力推进。

That it's just a trend and it's just showing up and doing the work every day.

我认为这会随着时间推移而发生。

I think it'll happen over time.

第一，正如我所说，我们的产品在技术上有显著优势，我认为投资者最终会被吸引过来。

Number one, because of what I said that, I think there's significant technological advantages to what our product is that I think investors will just, will pull them in eventually.

另一部分理由与支持比特币的人口结构论点相同，对吧？

The other part of it is the same argument in favor of Bitcoin is the demographic argument, right?

随着千禧一代和后千禧一代逐渐变老，他们在职位上变得更有资历，拥有更多财富，他们会更加熟悉这项技术，也不会觉得它那么可怕。

That as millennials and post millennials get older, they get more senior in their positions, they have more money, they'll just be more familiar with this technology and it's not as scary.

而这正是他们所期待的。

And that's kind of what they'll expect.

如果你习惯在Bitfinex上交易比特币，然后转到纳斯达克或其他地方交易，却发现交易时间固定、T+2结算、各种限制以及众多中介机构，这简直就是次优的用户体验，对吧？

If you're used to trading Bitcoin on Bitfinex and then you go and trade on the NASDAQ or something, and you've got fixed trading hours and T plus two and, you know, whatever it is, the other restrictions and a myriad of intermediaries, it's just like a substandard user experience, right?

因此，我认为人们的期望值更高，对市场现状也有了更多了解。

So people have a higher benchmark, I think, and a little bit more knowledge about what's up there.

所以我认为，这本质上是一个会随着时间推移逐渐展开的趋势，它将缓慢地拉近数字资产世界和传统证券世界之间的距离——这两个领域在过去十年里基本是彼此分离的。

So I think part of this is just a trend that's gonna play out over time and is just gonna slowly pull these two spheres, the digital asset world and the conventional securities world that for most of the last ten years have really been separate is going to pull them closer together.

在很多方面，它们其实已经高度重叠了。

Think in a lot of ways, they're already very overlapped.

但我认为你说得对，确实会出现一些量子跃迁式的、令人兴奋的新产品上市。

But I think you're right, like there definitely will be like quantum leaps and exciting products that come to market.

我希望能看到更多比特币和加密领域内的私营公司。

I'd like to see more of the companies within the Bitcoin and the crypto space that are private.

有很多规模庞大的私营公司。

There's a lot of giant private companies.

我希望能看到它们进行融资，而不是直接上市纳斯达克。

I'd like to see them do offerings rather than going to the NASDAQ.

我希望能看到更多这样的情况。

I'd like to see more of that.

我认为这会非常令人兴奋。

I think that would be exciting.

我另一件期待的事情是，我们过去在亚洲经常做存托凭证。

The other thing that I'm looking forward to is, we used to do a lot of depository receipts in Asia.

如果你是一家大型亚洲上市公司，比如台积电或富士康，你可以在美国发行存托凭证，以便吸引美国投资者投资。

So if you're a big Asian public company, like you're a TSMC or you're a Foxconn or whatever it is, you issue shares into The US as a depository receipt so that you can get American investors to invest.

我认为代币化也能填补这一细分市场，而且能更好地、更广泛地填补，因为你能够深入更多司法管辖区，触及更多类型的投资者。

I think the tokenization can fill that niche as well, but fill it better and more broadly, because you can go deeper into more jurisdictions and to more kinds of investors.

所以我认为另一件令人兴奋的事情是，当大型上市公司开始考虑通过代币化来填补这一细分市场，并在其传统股权之外发行代币时。

So I think another exciting thing is, know, when publicly big publicly listed companies start looking to tokenization to kind of fill that niche and to issue tokens alongside their conventional equity.

我认为这将非常令人兴奋，而且我们离这一天可能并不遥远。

I think that'll be really exciting and we're probably not very far away from it.

是的，正如你之前提到的，现在似乎已经没有人再提出‘加密货币可能只是一场空谈’这样的论点了。

Yeah, and to a point that you said earlier, it really doesn't seem like anyone makes this argument anymore of like, oh, crypto could just be a dud.

它可能会完全消失。

It could all go away.

它可能会归零。

It could all go to zero.

现在几乎没人再这么说了。

It's like no one's really making that anymore.

而且似乎这种想法已经被抛诸脑后了，因为大家都相信，这些东西会一直存在下去。

And it seems like the idea of that has kind of been tossed out the window because they all believe, like, this stuff's here to stay.

正如你刚才提到的，这些事情需要一些时间。

And to a point that you just made, like, this is stuff that takes a little bit of time.

我认为加密领域的人已经习惯了以极快且极不稳定的速度推进。

I think people in crypto are used to moving super fast in an extremely volatile manner.

他们希望事情能在一夜之间发生。

They want things to happen overnight.

而且，显然我们都希望如此。

And, like, obviously, we all want that.

但在现实世界中，事情确实需要比许多加密投资者预期更长的时间。

But I think in the real world, things do take a little bit more time than I think a lot of crypto investors probably expected to to take.

事情总是比预期花费更多时间。

It always takes more time than whatever is expected.

我认为这一点对很多这类事情也同样适用。

And I think the same goes for a lot of this.

我们正在看到所有正确的事情。

It's like we're seeing all the right things.

我们正在见证建设、基础设施、采用，尤其是在代币化方面。

We're seeing the build out and the infrastructure and the adoption and and especially when it comes to tokenization.

然而，这并不是会在今年年底或接下来的一个月内就全部完成的事情吧？

However, this isn't something that's gonna be all said and done and finished by the end of this year and the next month or so?

我认为这将延续数十年，而且你会看到传统证券市场与代币化市场并行运作。

I think it's going to play out for decades, And I think you're going to have conventional securities markets operating in tandem with tokenized markets.

两者之间的互动会越来越多。

There's going be more interaction.

我认为最终代币化的市场，我不确定哪个司法管辖区会胜出。

I think eventually the tokenized ones I'm not sure which jurisdiction is going to win.

我觉得我们的大部分竞争对手都聚焦于欧洲和美国。

I kind of think that the most of our competitors are focused on Europe, are focused on The US.

我们采取的是Tether的策略，专注于世界其他地区。

We're kind of taking the Tether playbook and we're focusing on the rest of the world.

我认为这正是代币化能够真正站稳脚跟并产生影响的地方，因为监管机构真的希望你在那里。

And I think that that's where tokenization can really get a foothold and you can make a difference because the regulators really want you to be there.

这些市场对代币化有着深刻的需求。

And there's a really deep need for tokenization in these markets.

我认为最终我们会看到，就像整个世界都是美国的游乐场一样，Tether 在全球范围内壮大，然后寻找方法将其整合进来。

I think eventually what we'll see happen is, similar to, it's kind of like the whole world is The US's sandbox, that Tether got big globally and then they look for a way to incorporate it.

我认为证券代币化也会发生同样的情况：由于美国市场庞大，存在大量传统阻力，导致其发展较慢，而当它在海外成为成功的概念验证后，再被引入美国。

And I think the same thing could happen with security tokenization where because you have so much legacy pushback with within The US because it's such a big market, that it's slower to develop in The US and then, you know, it gets brought in when when it when it becomes a really successful proof of concept outside The US.

是的。

Yeah.

绝对如此。

Absolutely.

如果一切真的爆发，你们就能获得美国以外全球市场的份额，从而拥有市场。

And if everything does pop off, then you all get market share for the whole rest of the world outside The US and you'll have market.

对吧？

Right?

是的。

Yeah.

这很令人惊讶。

It's a surprise.

当然。

Absolutely.

杰西，感谢你前来参加。

Well, Jesse, we appreciate you coming on.

如果人们想了解你在Bitfinex Securities的动态，他们可以在哪里关注你？

If people wanna get plugged in, they wanna follow what you're doing in Bitfinex Securities and everything, where can they follow you at?

好的。

Yeah.

在Twitter上关注Bitfinex Securities。

Look for Bitfinex Securities on Twitter.

来体验一下这个平台。

Come check out the platform.

好的。

Yeah.

我们所有的信息都在那里。

All our information is up there.

完美。

Perfect.

杰西，再次感谢你加入我们，你得持续向我们更新进展，因为正如你所说，这是一场持久战。

Well, Jesse, once again, thank you for joining us, and you'll have to keep us posted because like you said, this is this is the long game.

嗯。

Yep.

嗯。

Yep.

我们期待再次与你交流。

We look forward to speaking with you again.