本集简介
双语字幕
仅展示文本字幕，不包含中文音频；想边听边看，请使用 Bayt 播客 App。
如果你现在只能选一个山寨币，就选这个。
If you could only get one altcoin right now, get this one.
我指的是我们相信在当前市场中上涨潜力最强的币种。
I'm talking about the coin we believe has the strongest upside potential in today's market.
在分析了数百个山寨币之后，朋友们，这个机会让我整晚兴奋得睡不着。
After analyzing hundreds of altcoins, guys, this is the opportunity that keeps me awake with excitement all night.
所以原因如下。
So here's why.
它拥有强大的基本面、可靠的团队，以及一个可能在未来几个月内推动其大幅上涨的催化剂。
It's got the perfect combination of strong fundamentals, proven team, and a catalyst that could send it significantly higher in the coming months.
然而，它仍然被许多散户投资者忽视，这意味着你还有时间在大众发现之前建仓。
Yet it's still flying under the radar of many retail investors, which means you still got time to get position before the crowd catches on.
听好了，我们相信现在正是入手这个特定币种的完美时机。
Look, we believe this is the perfect time to get in on this specific coin.
所以，要获取完整分析，请立即访问 www.cryptorevolution.com/coin。
So to get the full breakdown, just go to www.cryptorevolution.com/coin right now.
机会之窗不会永远敞开。
The window of opportunity will not stay open forever.
欢迎收听由Gemini赞助的加密货币101播客，这里是通往未来货币的桥梁。
Welcome to the crypto one zero one podcast presented by Gemini, your bridge to the future of money.
好了，各位。
Alright, everyone.
欢迎回到加密货币101播客。
Welcome back to the crypto one zero one podcast.
今天我们要为大家带来一集特别的节目。
And, man, do we have a special episode in store for all of you here today.
我们请到了杰夫·加利克。
We have Jeff Garzik.
他是Hemi Labs的联合创始人之一。
He is the cofounder one of the cofounders of Hemi Labs.
他也是比特币历史上最早且最具影响力的开发者之一。
He's also one of the earliest and most influential developers in Bitcoin's history.
他在这个领域已经很久了。
He's been around for a long time.
他是这个领域的传奇人物。
He's a legend in the space.
杰夫，我们非常兴奋能和你交谈，不仅聊聊HEMI，还有你与比特币的漫长历史。
And, man, Jeff, we're excited to talk to you and talk to you not only about HEMI, but just about your long history with Bitcoin.
你确实是这个领域的传奇人物。
You're kind of a legend in the space.
嗨。
Hey.
谢谢邀请我。
Thanks for having me.
聊天一定会很有趣。
It'll be a lot of fun to chat.
当然。
Absolutely.
欢迎回来，各位。
So welcome back, everyone.
很高兴你们在这里。
It's good to have you.
我们希望大家都度过了一个精彩的新年，现在我们正稳步迈向2026年。
We hope everyone had a fantastic new year as we are chugging our way into 2026.
加密领域从不休息。
The crypto space, it doesn't sleep.
它从不停止。
It doesn't stop.
这里没有假期。
There's no holidays.
也没有休息时间。
There's no breaks.
而加密货币首次这样运作，正是从比特币开始的。
And, you know, the the first instance of crypto doing this all started with Bitcoin.
所以，杰夫，你一直都在，你是比特币本身的原始架构师之一。
And so, Jeff, I mean, you've been around again, you're one of the original architects of Bitcoin itself.
你知道，你一直参与其中，做了很长时间。
You know, you've been around for a while working with the thing.
给我们讲讲背后的故事吧。
Give us some backstory here.
那是什么意思？
What does that mean?
当然。
Sure.
让我们回到2010年。
So, let's go all the way back to year 2010.
好的。
Okay.
中本聪——这位比特币的匿名发明者——当时几乎是一个人挖矿。
Satoshi, the still anonymous inventor of Bitcoin, had been mining just about solo.
当时还有一两个人，但基本上是他一个人挖了一年。
There were one or two other people but just about solo for a year.
他从2009年1月开始挖矿，然后发生了我所说的‘大 Slashdot 爆发’。
He started mining January 2009 and then what I call the great slash dotting happened.
我很想感谢那个人。
Someone I I would love to credit them.
他们的名字永远湮没在历史中了。
Their name is forever lost in history.
他们发布在一个面向极客的新闻网站/组织上。
Posted to a news for nerds website/org.
这个网站在十年前、十五年前非常流行。
It was a very popular website ten, fifteen years ago.
如果你被 Slashdot 提到，你的网站就会因为流量过大而崩溃。
If you were mentioned on Slashdot, your website went down because you got so much traffic.
它曾经是
It was
Slashdot效应。
the Slashdot effect.
而比特币也经历了Slashdot效应。
And Bitcoin got the Slashdot effect.
有人发帖介绍了比特币这种去中心化货币，我当时持怀疑态度。
Someone posted about Bitcoin, the decentralized currency, and I was a skeptic.
我想，这不过是五台服务器，位于杰夫·贝佐斯某个地方的亚马逊数据中心里。
I was a, no, this is five servers in an Amazon data center owned by Jeff Bezos somewhere.
当然，在我的自负和庞大的计算机科学思维里，我觉得：不可能，这根本不可能是真正去中心化的，但它是开源的。
Surely, it is because in my my ego, my big computer science brain, I thought, oh no, there's no way it's truly decentralized but it was open source.
所以，2010年7月，我看到了那篇帖子。
So, July 2010, I saw that post.
我点了进去。
I clicked.
我下载了源代码，像任何工程师一样，因为是开源的，你可以查看底层代码。
I download the source code and as any engineer can do because it's open source, you look under the hood.
你查看代码。
You look at the code.
你不信任那个匿名的中本聪是谁，也不轻信他们说的话，而是通过验证来建立信任。
You don't trust who this anonymous Satoshi person is and what they said, you trust by verifying.
你去尝试，这就是整个加密货币的精神。
You try and that's the whole crypto ethos.
你获得证据。
You get proof.
你知道，这不关乎言辞。
You know, it's not about words.
你查看源代码。
You look at the source code.
我查看了源代码。
I looked at the source code.
我证明自己错了。
I proved myself wrong.
我被深深震撼了。
I was blown away.
这是一个全新的发明，而由于我之前一直在从事Linux工作，Linux是驱动Android、所有计算机和所有数据中心的开源系统，所以我对开源非常了解。
This is a brand new invention and since I'd already been working on Linux, the open source that powers Android and all the computers and all the data centers, I knew open source.
我对此非常熟悉。
I knew it very well.
我曾多年在发明家林纳斯·托瓦兹手下工作。
I had been working under inventor Linus Torvalds for many years.
所以我直接就投入进去了。
So I just jumped right in.
我开始做出修改，开始对比特币进行修改。
I started making changes, started making changes to Bitcoin.
其中一些修改被接受了，但我的第一个修改被中本聪拒绝了。
Some of them were accepted, but my very first change rejected by Satoshi.
他给我盖了个大大的拒绝章。
He gave me the big reject stamp.
我们可以问该怎么做吗？
Can we ask what to do?
我尝试增大区块大小，以便让比特币达到PayPal的水平，即每秒4000笔交易。
I tried to increase the block size such that the we had Bitcoin to the level of PayPal, which was 4,000 transactions a second.
嗯，是的。
Uh-huh.
有人温和地向我解释说，不行，这会破坏共识，而我当时刚接触，还在学习这一切。
And I was gently explained that no, this will break consensus and I was, you know, new and learning all this stuff.
嗯，是的。
Uh-huh.
但中本聪向我解释了比特币的工作原理。
But Satoshi kinda explained Bitcoin to me.
在公开场合，你知道的，你得放下自我，保持谦逊。
In public, you know, you gotta swallow your ego and be humble there.
但那是个挺有趣的开端，我之后继续提交补丁。
But that was that was a funny intro, but I continued to send patches.
这是开源流程：提交补丁，获得反馈。
It was the open source process of send a patch, get some feedback.
如果好，就会被纳入比特币。
If it's good, it goes into Bitcoin.
如果不好，就会被拒绝，然后修改。
If it's not, it gets rejected, it gets revised.
这是标准的工程流程。
That's the standard engineering process.
中本聪非常友好。
Satoshi was very welcoming.
中本聪并没有说：‘天啊，杰夫，你提交的这段代码简直是垃圾。’
Satoshi wasn't like, God, Jeff, that was such a crap piece of software that you just submitted.
你为什么还在这颗星球上？
Why are you even on this planet?
不，完全相反。
No, just the total opposite.
他对我和许多其他人非常友好，因为当时这一切都是全新的。
Very welcoming to myself and many of the other folks because this was brand new.
以前从来没人听说过区块链。
Nobody ever heard of blockchain before.
所以他得向我们解释什么是区块链。
So he had to explain blockchain to us.
所以当你提到他说了这个、那个，或者和你交流过，这到底是怎么发生的？
So when you say that he said this and that he talked to you or converse with you, how does that happen?
这怎么可能呢？
How is that possible?
是通过某个网站之类的平台吗？
Was it over you know, one of these websites or
所有交流都是通过公共论坛进行的。
It was all via public forums.
稍后，当然，以如今的 hindsight 和历史视角来看，我有幸通过电子邮件与中本聪私下交流过，但没人听过中本聪的声音。
A little bit later, did now, you know, in hindsight and history, have the fortune converse privately with Satoshi over email, but nobody's heard Satoshi's voice.
没人知道中本聪长什么样。
Nobody knows what Satoshi looks like.
在那个年代，一切都发生在公共论坛上。
It was all public forums back in those days.
这太疯狂了。
That's crazy.
我的意思是，当你想到曾经就加密货币相关事宜与中本聪交谈过的人数时，我说的是，在他的一生中，他当然是匿名的。
I mean, it's when you when you think about the number of people who have spoken to Satoshi in regards to the crypto related things, I'm saying, you know, over the course of his life, obviously, he's anonymous.
你知道，有数百万甚至数千人曾与他交流过，却并不知道他是谁。
You know, millions or thousands of people spoke with him not knowing it.
但那些知道他就是中本聪的人，即使你并不知道他是谁，我想，人数可能仅限于一两只手的数量。
But of the people who know that he was Satoshi, even though you don't know who he was, I mean, you can probably think that it's limited to amount of people on one or two on, like, one or two hands.
我的意思是，这正是我的想法。
I mean, that's what I'm thinking.
可能只有个位数。
Like, it's probably single digits.
你和他聊了多久？
How long were you able to to talk to him for?
我的意思是，他后来消失了吗？你们现在不再联系了？
I mean, has he gone dark and you guys don't really talk anymore?
跟我们说说这件事吧，因为大家都以为他推出比特币后就突然消失了。
Tell us about that because everyone thinks, you know, he he launched Bitcoin, and then he just disappeared.
那是一个缓慢的退出过程，是的。
It was a it was a slow fade Yeah.
事情就是这么发生的。
Is kinda how it happened.
但到了2010年，很明显比特币已经获得了动力。
But towards the 2010, it was clear that Bitcoin had momentum.
但与此同时，这对软件开发者来说也是一个有点可怕的时代。
But at the same time, it was a little bit of a scary time for software developers.
你知道，这是一个非常冷门的背景，但在2010年，像我这样的开发者并不清楚，仅仅编写软件是否就违反了美国法律。
You know, this is a super obscure reference but in 2010, developers such as myself didn't know whether we were violating United States laws simply by writing software.
当时有个《印花税法》，我们不知道发行虚拟货币是否违反了《印花税法》或其他一些没人听过的冷门法律，因此引起了更多关注。
There's something called the Stamp Act and we didn't know that by issuing virtual currency, were we violating the Stamp Act or some of these other, you know, obscure laws that nobody's ever heard of and so, lot more attention was coming in.
当时还发生了维基解密的争议事件，维基解密是个著名的泄密网站。
There was a WikiLeaks controversy where WikiLeaks famous leak website.
他们正在募集捐款，但维萨和万事达卡切断了他们的支付渠道。
They were soliciting donations, Visa, Mastercard, Visa, Mastercard cut them off.
于是有人在比特币论坛上说：‘天啊，我们用比特币来支持他们吧。’
And someone on the Bitcoin forum was, oh boy, let's use Bitcoin for this.
这正好发生在维基解密公布美国外交机密的时刻，为这件事增添了一点政治和文化色彩。
And it was right at the moment where WikiLeaks just to insert a little bit of politics, culture, etcetera.
他们曝光了大量美国的外交机密。
They revealed a lot of diplomatic secrets of The United States.
因此，作为政府的美国——这个世界上最大的政府之一——对这件事非常愤怒。
And so The United States as a government, like the biggest world governments were angry about this thing.
于是，有人在比特币论坛上说：‘我们用比特币吧。’
And so someone on the Bitcoin forum said, let's do Bitcoin.
中本聪介入并说：不，别把这事牵扯进来。
Satoshi stepped in and said, no, don't bring it on.
比特币还很年轻。
Bitcoin is still young.
如果你把俄罗斯、美国这样处于高风险情境下的大国吸引过来，他们会直接扼杀比特币。
If you invite the attention of Russia, The United States in very high stakes type of scenarios, they'll just kill Bitcoin outright.
所以比特币还处于测试阶段。
And so Bitcoin's in beta.
比特币需要时间成长。
Bitcoin needs time to grow.
比特币需要时间站稳脚跟。
Bitcoin needs time to get its feet.
这基本上就是中本聪对维基解密事件的反应。
That was kinda Satoshi's reaction to the WikiLeaks controversy.
新的一年，天气更冷了。
A new year, colder days.
现在正是你的冬装真正发挥作用的时候。
This is the moment your winter wardrobe really has to deliver.
如果你想要一次冬季衣橱的焕新，那就从真正经得起年复一年穿着的单品开始吧。
If you're craving a winter reset, start with pieces truly made to last season after season.
Quince 将优质材料、精心设计和持久品质融为一体。
Quince brings together premium materials, thoughtful design, and enduring quality.
让你在整个冬季都保持温暖、帅气，并且状态最佳。
So you stay warm, look sharp, and feel your best all season long.
Quince 拥有你所需的一切。
Quince has everything you need.
他们的外套尤其令人印象深刻。
Their outerwear is especially impressive.
比如羽绒服、羊毛大衣和意大利皮革外套，在真正寒冷时也能为你保暖。
Think down jackets, wool coats, and Italian leather outerwear that keeps you warm when it's actually cold.
每一件单品都由信誉良好的工厂使用优质材料制成，严格遵循工艺和道德生产的高标准。
Each piece is made from premium materials by trusted factories that meet rigorous standards for craftsmanship and ethical production.
而且，他们跳过了中间商，所以你能享受到超值的价格。
Plus, they cut out the middleman, so you're getting awesome prices.
我从Quince买的羊毛外套非常时尚。
The wool coat that I got from Quince is super stylish.
它比之前我买过的其他外套耐穿多了，而那些外套价格贵得多。
It's holding up way better than other coats I've bought before, and those coats were way more expensive.
它既好看又保暖，而且我没花多少钱。
It looks good, it keeps me warm, and I didn't have to drop a fortune on it.
而且，他们的官网购物体验非常有趣。
Plus, their online website is super fun to shop on.
浏览他们的外套很有趣，但他们还有超棒的衬衫和健身用品。
It's fun looking to peruse to look at their outerwear, but also they have super cool shirts, workout stuff.
他们甚至还有一个家居专区。
They even have a home section.
你可以为家里添置各种用品。
You can get stuff for your house.
他们的网站很棒。
Their website is awesome.
你们一定要去看看。
You have to go check it out.
所以各位，用Quince更新一下你们的冬装吧。
So guys, refresh your winter wardrobe with Quince.
前往 quince.com/crypto101，享受免费配送和365天无理由退换。
Go to quince.com/crypto101 for free shipping on your order and three hundred and sixty five day returns.
现在在加拿大也能购买了。
Now available in Canada too.
这就是Quince，quince.com/crypto10one。
That's Quince, quince.com/crypto10one.
免费配送，365天无理由退换。
Free shipping and three hundred and sixty five day returns.
quince.com/crypto10one。
Quince.com/crypto10one.
新年通常意味着新设备。
New Year usually means new devices.
从祖父母的手机、笔记本电脑、平板电脑，到孩子们的设备，或者至少是更多地在线时间。
Phones, laptops, tablets from grandma all the way down to the kids, or at least spending more time online.
这让我重新意识到需要认真考虑数字安全了。
That's been a good reminder to actually think about digital security again.
我一直在使用Webroot，特别是他们的全方位保护计划，如果你需要的不只是杀毒软件，这是一个一体化的选择。
I've been using Webroot, specifically their total protection plan, which is an all in one option if you want coverage beyond just antivirus.
让我印象深刻的是，它结合了实时杀毒防护，防范恶意软件和网络钓鱼骗局，身份监控与警报，更重要的是，如果发生身份盗窃，最高可报销100万美元的合理自付费用。
What stood out to me is that it combines real time antivirus protection against things like malware and phishing scams, identity monitoring with alerts, and this is a big one, up to $1,000,000 in expense reimbursement for eligible out of pocket costs if identity theft ever becomes an issue.
全方位保护还包含密码管理器和网络威胁防护工具，可在你访问前阻止恶意网站，此外还能保护多台设备甚至家庭成员，且不会拖慢系统速度或频繁弹出广告。
Total protection also includes tools like a password manager and web threat protection that blocks malicious sites before you visit them, plus options to protect multiple devices and even family members, all without slowing your system down or throwing constant pop ups at you.
所以，事情是这样的。
So here's the deal.
新年，新设备。
New year, new device.
无论你是升级设备还是继续使用现有的，现在都是以六折优惠使用Webroot值得信赖的网络安全解决方案保护所有设备的好时机。
Whether you're upgrading tech or sticking with what you've got, now's the time to protect all your devices at 60% off with Webroot's trusted cybersecurity solutions.
访问 webroot.com/crypto101，享受六折优惠。
Visit webroot.com/crypto101 and get 60% off.
再次提醒，是 webroot.com，通过 webroot.com/crypto101 获得六折优惠。
Again, that's webroot.com, webroot.com/crypto101 for 60% off.
此优惠仅通过 crypto 101 链接提供，所以请务必使用它：webroot.com/crypto101，享受总保护计划最高六折优惠。今年，选择适合你的防护方案，与Webroot一起享受更优质的数字生活。
This offer is only available through the crypto 101 link, so make sure you use it webroot.com/crypto101 and get up to 60% off their total protection plan This year, choose protection that's right for you and live a better digital life with Webroot.
你有兴趣轻松增加你的比特币投资组合吗？
Are you interested in effortlessly growing your Bitcoin portfolio?
我当然有兴趣。
I sure am.
Gemini信用卡让你在每笔消费中都能获得比特币返现。
The Gemini credit card earns you Bitcoin back on every purchase.
就像使用其他信用卡一样，当你购买午餐、加油，甚至每周的杂货时，你将立即获得高达4%的返现，直接以比特币或超过50种其他加密货币形式存入你的账户。
Use it just like any other credit card when you buy lunch, gas, or even just your weekly groceries, and you'll earn up to 4% back instantly in Bitcoin or one of over 50 other cryptos straight to your account.
所有这些都免年费，而且现在你可以领取200美元的比特币欢迎奖励。
All that with no annual fee, and right now you can grab a $200 Bitcoin welcome bonus.
这是开始积累你的比特币资产的最简单方式。
It's the easiest way to start building your Bitcoin stack.
朋友们，我们每期节目都在谈论Gemini，我们非常感谢他们成为我们的赞助商，因为我们确实使用他们的产品，无论是交易平台还是信用卡。
Guys, you've heard us talk about Gemini now every single episode, and we love and appreciate that they've been a sponsor because we use their products, whether it's the exchange or the card.
他们在这个领域已经领先了很长时间。
They have been leaders in the space for so long.
所以，如果你有兴趣通过日常消费赚取加密货币奖励，请前往 gemini.com/card 了解更多信息。
So if you're interested in earning crypto rewards for your everyday spending, go to gemini.com/card to learn more.
条款适用。
Terms apply.
有关利率和费用的更多信息，请参见描述中的链接。
See the link in the description for more information regarding rates and fees.
由WebBank发行。
Issued by WebBank.
要符合200美元加密货币入门奖励资格，您必须在前90天内消费3000美元。
To qualify for the $200 crypto intro bonus, you must spend $3,000 in your first ninety days.
部分即时奖励有例外情况。
Some exclusions to instant rewards apply.
这并非投资建议，加密货币交易存在风险。
This is not investment advice, and trading crypto involves risk.
请查阅Gemini网站以获取有关费率和费用的更多详情。
Check Gemini's website for more details on rates and fees.
你知道，我得同意他的观点。
You know, I'd have to agree with him.
我的意思是，从某种意义上说，他可能是对的，因为这个行业确实需要时间成熟、成长，并在过去十五年左右自然地经历所有这些过程。
I mean, he's probably right in the sense that this needed to mature and grow and do all the things that it kind of naturally did over the last fifteen or so years.
所以，让我们直接跳到现在。
So, I mean, let's let's fast forward now.
我的意思是，过去十五年里，观察加密货币——不仅是比特币，还有整个加密行业——逐渐成熟，感觉如何？
I mean, what's it like been watching crypto, not only Bitcoin, but, like, the entire crypto industry kinda mature over the last fifteen years?
我的意思是，出现了很多升级、很多新增功能，还有各种行业和企业。
I mean, there's been lots of upgrades, lots of additions, lots of industries and businesses and all these things.
我想看看正反两面。
I wanna look at both sides.
你能告诉我，你最自豪和兴奋的是哪些涌现出来的东西吗？还有，你在加密货币发展中有哪些不同意的观点或出现的问题？
You know, can you give me probably some of the things that you're the most proud of and excited of that have popped up, and then maybe some of the things that you've disagreed with that have come out or come up through crypto?
当然。
Sure.
我喜欢打个比方，称之为达尔文式的火炼考验。
I like to make the analogy, I call it Darwin's trial by fire.
加密货币经历了很多个周期。
Crypto has gone through a number of cycles.
在每一个周期中，你都会看到经济学家所说的非理性繁荣，比如2011年、2012年时我们以为会实现的一切。
And each one of these cycles you have what the economist called the irrational exuberance of we're gonna do back in 2011, 2012.
我想那正是莱特币——比特币的一个复制品——作为最早的比特币复制品之一推出的时候。
I think that's when Litecoin, a Bitcoin photocopy, one of the first photocopies of Bitcoin was launched.
这开启了第一代‘发币’浪潮。
That kind of launched the first generation one of Launch Your Token.
回过头看，当时的成本高得离谱。
And looking back, it's hilariously expensive.
你得搭建整个矿机网络才能发行一个代币。
You had to spin up an entire mining network just to launch a token.
这跟今天在以太坊上做的差不多。
Kinda the same thing you do on Ethereum today.
你知道吗，每天都有六万个Solana代币被发行。
You know, sixty, zero Solana coins are launched every day.
你得搭建整个算力矿机网络，只为发行一个只是复制比特币的代币。
You had to spin up an entire hash power mining network just to launch a token that all it did was photocopy Bitcoin.
所以这算是一种倒退。
So that was stepping back.
第一次ICO浪潮发生在2010年底到2011年，那是一个实验性周期。
That was the first ICO era was late twenty ten, twenty eleven when you go through a cycle of experimentation.
人们都在问，我该怎么操作？
People are like, how do I do this?
我该怎么做？
What do I do this?
骗子们在想，我该怎么行骗？
Scammers are like, how do I scam?
赚钱的人在想，我该怎么赚钱？
Money makers are like, how do I make money?
然后就是炒作周期、泡沫，接着回归现实。
And there's the hype cycle, the bubble, and then it comes down to Earth.
回归现实的这部分，幸存下来的才是真正的宝石。
The come down to Earth part is where the survivors are the gems.
幸存者是那些可能真的有意义的项目。
The survivors are the ones that, you know, that that may actually make sense.
所以，曾经有太多代币，现在大家都忘了，比如2011年的Catcoin之类的。
So, there were so many tokens that everyone's forgotten, like Catcoin from 2011, things of that nature.
但我们必须经历这些创新周期。
But we have to go through these innovation cycles.
我是个开发者，是个建设者，是个梦想家，对吧？
I'm a developer, I'm a builder, I'm a dreamer, right?
所以我们必须经历一个观察发生什么、实验、创新的周期，而风险投资的幂律法则表明，其中95%会失败。
And so we've got to go through a cycle of see what happens, experiment, innovate, and here's venture capital power law, ninety five percent of those will fail.
也许98%都会失败，但这没关系。
Maybe ninety eight percent of those will fail, but that's okay.
这就是过程。
That's the process.
那1%或2%才是珍宝，是幸存者。
That one or 2% are the gems, they're survivors.
所以以太坊就是这样诞生的。
So that's where Ethereum came out.
回答你的问题，第一个周期充满了混乱、胡扯、胡扯，而从中诞生的是经验教训。
Kind of answering your question is like the first cycle, there's chaos, BS, BS, and then what came out of it was lessons learned.
哦，让我们来构建以太坊吧，维塔利克和其他联合创始人一起打造了以太坊。
Oh, let's build Ethereum and Vitalik and the other co founders built Ethereum.
然后你经历了ICO周期，从中吸取了哪些教训？结果是什么？
Then you had the ICO cycle, lessons learned, what came out of that?
去中心化金融。
DeFi.
去中心化金融的借贷确实可行。
Is DeFi lending, it actually works.
还有去中心化交易所，比如Uniswap，人们已经对去中心化交易所的交易感到厌倦了。
And DEXs, Uniswap, people are bored with DEX swapping.
我做过一次去中心化交易所的交易。
I did a DEX swap.
是的，我会这么做。
Yes, I would.
在2014年、2015年、2016年，那对人们来说是全新的事物，意义重大。
That was huge for people in 2014, 2015, 2016 is that was the new new.
你不需要去受监管的交易所。
You didn't have to go to a regulated exchange.
你不需要进行KYC或去某个骗人的俄罗斯交易所。
You didn't have to KYC or go to some scammy Russian exchange.
你可以直接在区块链上透明地操作。
You could just do it transparently on the blockchain.
因此，每个周期的精华都推动了下一个周期的发展，这可以说是过去十多年的一个回顾。
And so the gems of each cycle kind of feed the next cycle is kinda, you know, the decade plus look back.
我的意思是，确实如此。
I mean, it's true.
而且我们已经
And we've
在播客里说过好几次了，但人们总是说：哦，如果我早在2010年、2011年就知道比特币，我肯定会去买一些。
said this a couple of times on the pod, but people have come in and they always say, oh, if I was around if I would have known about Bitcoin in twenty ten, twenty eleven, I would have just gone and bought some.
但他们没意识到，当时获取比特币远没有今天这么容易。
And what they fail to understand is that it's not as easy as it is today to get a hold of.
对于当时在场的人来说，你们会记得，那时候你不能只是上Coinbase或者打开你的经纪账户就买一些。
For the people who were around back then, you would remember, you don't just go on the Coinbase or open up your brokerage account and buy some.
那时候要拿到比特币比现在难得多，尤其是如果你不懂技术又不够小心，因为你可能会去错地方，想买却给自己惹上麻烦。
It was a lot harder to get your hands on than it is today, especially if you weren't tech savvy and if you weren't careful because then you go to the wrong place and you try to get some and you get yourself in trouble.
那时候发生了太多事情，环境确实和现在完全不同。
And, you know, there's just a lot that was going on back then, and it was definitely a different landscape.
但你知道，
But, you know
我给你讲两个小故事吧。
I'll give I'll give you two quick anecdotes.
好的。
Okay.
第一，我认识一位先生，我不想说出他的全名，但他的名字叫威廉。
Number one, I know a gentleman, I don't wanna name his name, but, well, first name William.
威廉在亚马逊上租了大约四万台电脑，用CPU来挖比特币，这简直是挖比特币最低效、最慢的方式。
William rented, like, 40,000 PCs at amazon.com to mine Bitcoin on CPU, which is like literally the most inefficient, slowest way to mine Bitcoin.
但他还是赚到了这么多比特币，如今已成为亿万富翁。
But he was still making so much Bitcoin that he's a billionaire today.
天哪。
Holy cow.
所以说，想想这个时间差，对吧？他当时在亏巨额资金，天啊。
That's So it's like, you know, think about the the time differential, right, is he was losing massive amounts of money Wow.
用这四万台机器，那时候大概是每小时5美元，乘以4万台。
With these four you know, it was like, back then, it was like, I don't know, $5 an hour times 40,000.
是因为他当时不知道GPU挖矿比CPU更高效吗？因为那时候太早了？
Is that just because he didn't know that GPUs were better at mining than CPUs because it was so early?
在GPU时代之前。
Before the GPU era.
那时候简直太古老了。
That's that's how ancient it was.
这太疯狂了，但是
That is wild, but
我想你是对的。
I guess you're right.
当它升值这么多时，其实就不那么重要了。
When it appreciates that much, it doesn't really matter.
没错。
That's right.
另外，我告诉别人，我不是比特币亿万富翁。
And the other is, I am not I tell people I'm not a Bitcoin billionaire.
人们不了解早期情况的另一点是，至少我当时家里有个儿子有医疗问题，需要花钱。
The other thing that people don't understand about the early days is at least I had a little bit of personal, a son with some medical issues stuff.
所以我不得不卖出我的比特币，用它来支付现实生活中的开销。
So I had to sell sell my Bitcoin and spend it and use it on real life stuff.
所以，有个事实是，我送出了15000个比特币。
And so, factoid, I've given away 15,000 Bitcoin Wow.
那是2010年的时候，作为开发者的奖励。
In developer bounties back in 2010.
这太多了。
It's a lot.
我不会问你它现在值多少钱，但我们先把这个想法放一边。
I'm gonna I'm gonna I'm not gonna ask you how much it's worth today, but we'll just we'll put that thought aside.
我妻子每年都会提醒我它值多少钱。
My my wife reminds me every year how much it's worth.
这就像披萨的故事。
It's like the pizza story.
没错。
That's right.
天哪。
Oh, man.
嗯，这确实很难。
Well, it it's it's hard.
我的意思是，事后看来，回头看会觉得这很明显，但其实并不是这样。
I mean, you can't it's it's easy in hindsight to look back at it and be like, oh, it was obvious when it's like, okay.
持有十五年，我的意思是，想象一下如果你持有一只股票。
Holding for fifteen years after I mean, imagine if you had a stock.
对吧？
Right?
想象一下你持有一只股票，它涨了十倍、一百倍、一千倍。
Imagine you had a stock and you held it, and it was up 10 times, a 100 times, a thousand times.
在某个时候，你就会开始获利了结。
At some point, you're taking profits.
如果你涨了一千倍，然后你还有比特币，它自2010年以来涨了——我不知道多少倍，可能几十万倍吧，或者类似的情况。
If you're up a thousand times, and then you have Bitcoin, which is up, you know, I I don't know what since 2010, like, hundreds of thousands probably times of what it was worth or whatever.
而且，是的，说起来容易做起来难。
And, yeah, I mean, it it's easier said than done.
所以，你知道，再次说，谁
So, you know, again Who
有这种纪律，能坚持十五年而不获利了结？
has that discipline to hold for fifteen years and not take profit?
是的
Yeah.
没错
Exactly.
想想看，我想要所有正在苛责他们、苛责我们的听众，都好好想想自己。
Think about I want all of you listeners who are giving them a hard time, giving us a hard time, just think about yourself.
当价格只涨了两倍、三倍，或者下跌了15%时，你是不是就觉得‘也许我该卖了’？
How how little the price might have moved when something two x's or three x's or it falls by 15%, you're like, oh, maybe I should sell.
现在你终于能理解，把这种波动放大一千倍、十万倍是什么感觉了。
Well, now you can understand what it's like, you know, multiplying that by a thousand or a 100,000.
但是
But
是的
Yeah.
你是在一美元的时候入手的。
You get you get it at a dollar.
现在已经涨到一百倍了。
It's at a 100.
是的。
Yeah.
对吧？
Right?
你是要卖，还是要继续持有？
Are you gonna sell, or are you gonna hold?
这已经涨了一百倍了。
It's already a 100 x.
嗯。
Uh-huh.
你知道的。
You know?
嗯。
Uh-huh.
我记得这件事。
I I remember this.
我不想过多地偏离主题。
And I don't wanna side notice too much.
但在早期，我当时还在上高中，做过一个关于比特币的报告。
But in the early days, I was still in in in high school at the time, and I did a report on Bitcoin.
而且，说来话短，我在高中做这个报告时，比特币价格只有几美元。
And, you know, long story short, I'm presenting this report in high school, and it was at, like, several dollars.
那在当时可是个大新闻。
And it was this big deal.
我当时就想，看看它现在变成了什么样。
And I was like, look at what it's done.
它的价值已经是美元的很多倍了，这真是太了不起了。
It's worth multiple times more than what a US dollar is worth, and it was this amazing thing.
当然，这趟列车从未停歇过。
And, of course, that train never stopped.
但你知道，让我们回到对话的核心，看看我们现在所处的2026年。
But, you know, to bring us back to that kind of the core of the conversation and where we're at in the current day, you know, 2026.
目前有数十亿美元的比特币处于闲置状态。
So there's billions of dollars in Bitcoin that's sitting idle.
对吧？
Right?
这就是HEMI发挥作用的地方。
And that's kinda where HEMI comes in.
是的。
Yeah.
当然。
Absolutely.
Hemi是一个连接加密货币两大领域的二层协议，我们常称之为双极。
Hemi is a l two that's connected to both of the hemispheres of crypto as we like to call it.
加密货币的国王和女王——比特币和以太坊。
The king and queen of crypto, Bitcoin, and Ethereum.
它位于这两者的中心。
It sits at the center of both of those.
它是一个增强版的比特币EVM，通过HEMI，我在很大程度上重新回到了我的比特币初心，生成比特币收益。
It's a a Bitcoin enhanced EVM and we're generating Bitcoin yield kind of coming back to my Bitcoin roots in a lot of ways with HEMI.
这非常令人兴奋。
It's very exciting.
我们正在链上和跨链开展多项不同计划，我很乐意谈谈它们。
We have a number of different initiatives going on on chain and across the chains, and I'd love to talk about them.
是的。
Yeah.
我的意思是，让我们直接切入正题吧，因为对于一些刚接触加密货币的人来说，可能不知道你可以质押很多加密货币。
I mean, let's let's dive right on into it because for people who maybe are newer to crypto and you don't know, you can stake a lot of cryptos out there.
你可以从中获得收益。
You can earn yields on them.
你可以产生收益。
You can generate yield.
但比特币有点不同。
But Bitcoin is a little bit different.
比特币采用的是共识机制，也就是支撑比特币后端的机制，称为工作量证明，而以太坊和Solana则是权益证明。
Bitcoin is under a consensus mechanism or the thing that kind of runs the back end of Bitcoin called proof of work, whereas Ethereum and Solana are proof of stake.
因此，你可以通过质押来获得收益，但这是在比特币上无法做到的。
So you can earn a yield on them by staking, but that's not something that you can do on Bitcoin.
但你在这里说的是，你想要——或者你已经实现了，让比特币也能产生收益。
But what you're saying here is you wanna make it or you're you've already made it so that you can earn a yield on Bitcoin.
比特币。
Bitcoin.
这到底是怎么实现的？
How does that work?
说得完全正确。
That's exactly right.
你很好地总结了：许多其他协议是后来才出现的，它们的设计略有不同，采用的是权益证明而非工作量证明。
And you you summarize it very well as many of the other protocols, they came a little bit later, they have a little bit of a different design, proof of stake versus proof of work.
展开剩余字幕（还有 282 条）
所以比特币原生并不具备仅仅持有它就能帮助保障网络并自动获得收益的功能。
And so Bitcoin natively doesn't have a just hold it, help secure the network, and you automatically get yield.
现在，如果你的观众中有任何比特币矿工，他们可能会说：等等，我其实已经在获得收益了。这是一种看待方式，而我们也有一个叫 MinerFi 的产品，我也很乐意聊聊，但最终，市场正在回归比特币。
Now, at this point, if there's any Bitcoin miners in your audience, they're probably saying, hey, wait, I'm getting yield and that's one way to look at it and one way we're looking at it, we have something called MinerFi that I would love to talk about as well but ultimately, the market is turning back to Bitcoin.
市场正在回归比特币。
The market is coming back to Bitcoin.
作为加密货币的根源，比特币没有内置的收益来源，因此你需要设计出一种机制，而市场上的人们，比如交易者，有多种不同的选择来实现这一点。
The kind of the root of the crypto tree and without a built in native yield source, you need to design it in and there are number of different options for people who are in the markets and trading, that sort of thing.
借贷市场是人们获取收益的一个领域。
Lending markets is one area that people source yield on.
交易费用是另一个受欢迎的来源。
Trading fees is another popular one.
它们可以被附加上去。
They can bolt on.
一些其他的比特币相关项目，实际上会将我刚才提到的挖矿收入返还给持有者，这也是一种收益形式。
Some other Bitcoin related ventures, they actually pipe the mining revenue that I just mentioned back into holders and that's a form of yield.
所以，如果你是——我自称是推特上的网络管道工。
So, there there are number of different if you're I I call myself on Twitter a network plumber.
如果你是网络管道工，你就知道收益在哪里，但这些收益并没有以一种简洁、易用的方式封装起来，比如‘把你的比特币放在这里，就能安全地获得收益’。
If you're a network plumber, you know where the yield is but it's not packaged for users in a nice, easy, just put your Bitcoin here, earn yield, and be safe kinda way.
而这就是我们真正想要设计和构建的用户体验。
And that was the user experience that we really wanted to design and build.
是的。
Yeah.
过去几年里，看到比特币生态系统逐渐发展，确实很有趣。
I mean, it's been cool to see Bitcoin's ecosystem kind of evolve over the last several years.
你看到有人尝试过，当然不是我尝试。
You've seen people try, and people have, not me try.
你看到围绕比特币的生态系统逐渐建立起来，让人们可以在其基础上构建东西或创造产品。
You've seen the ecosystem around Bitcoin get built up so that people can build things on it or create products out of it.
说到HEMI，你是否认为这是一个地方，人们可以在这里仅仅通过持有实际的比特币来获得收益？
When it comes to to HEMI, do you view this as a place where people can come and earn a yield on just, like, their spot Bitcoins, like, at holding the actual Bitcoin coins themselves?
或者你有没有考虑过将这个扩展到ETF产品上？
Or have you ever thought about trying to expand this to the ETF offerings as well?
因为显然，这些ETF的规模已经大幅增长，现在里面已经有数千亿甚至上万亿美元的资金。
Because, obviously, those have kind of ballooned in their size, and now they have these just billions and billions of dollars inside of them.
绝对是后者。
Definitely the latter.
我们是从这样的起点出发的：如果你是DeFi专家，这里有一些你可以用来赚取收益的底层工具。
We're stepping from here's if you're a DeFi expert, here's the plumbing that you can use for yield.
这可以说是零级水平。
That's kind of level zero.
它并不容易上手。
It's not very approachable.
所以我才称之为底层工具。
That's why I call it plumbing.
但如果你是专家，你就知道怎么使用它。
But if you're an expert, you know how to use it.
下一个层次是，我们已经对这些底层设施进行了编排，使其更易用。
The next level up is, okay, we've orchestrated a lot of that plumbing, made it easier.
现在，你的比特币有了一个安全的收益路径。
Now there's a safe path for your Bitcoin.
如果你是加密原生用户，你可以来这里赚取收益。
If you're a crypto native, you can come here and earn yield.
下一个层次，也是回答你问题的关键，是华尔街开始持有数十亿美元的比特币。
Now the next level and getting to your question is Wall Street is starting to hold billions in Bitcoin.
是的。
Yeah.
这些数字资产 treasury 公司，也就是 DATs 和 ETFs，是 Hemi 下一步演进的首要目标。
These digital asset treasury companies, these DATs, ETFs, they are the prime candidate for the next evolution of Hemi.
原因是，所有这些比特币都处于闲置状态。
And the reason is, is all of that Bitcoin is idle.
这既是比特币原教旨主义者的时代，他们把比特币存放在冷钱包中。
It's both the era of the Bitcoin maximalist, the holding in a cold wallet.
我们认为，比特币原教旨主义的时代已经结束，取而代之的是比特币务实主义的时代——你希望持有比特币，并从中获得收益。
We argue is over and the Bitcoin pragmatist era of you want to hold your you want to huddle your Bitcoin and earn yield on it.
还有华尔街监管下的机构时代。
And also the institutional era of these institutions that are regulated by Wall Street.
他们必须拥有合格的托管方、审计、尽职调查，以及所有你希望用于管理数十亿美元比特币的检查与制衡机制。
They gotta have things like qualified custodians and audits and due diligence and all of the checks and balances that you would want to have for someone managing multiple billions of dollars in Bitcoin.
这标志着我们已经成熟，这些机构正在参与加密行业。
It's a sign that we've matured, that these folks are playing in the crypto industry.
因此，这些机构不仅存在，而且全身心投入比特币的深水区，这真是太棒了。
And so it's fantastic that these folks even exist and much less they're diving in with both feet into Bitcoin deep waters.
因此，Hemi真正脱颖而出的地方，就在于那些不仅寻求‘孤注一掷’式高风险收益，更希望获得经过精心设计、工程严谨、经过审计和实战检验的代码流程的机构——这些流程是合格托管方和机构真正可以信赖的。
So, that's where Hemi really shines is those institutions that are looking for not just kind of YOLO gamble your Bitcoin type of yield, but a very well apportioned, well engineered, audited, battle tested code flows that qualified custodians and institutions can actually trust.
所以，Hemi正在寻找这些DATs。
So that's where Hemi's looking for the DATs.
而这一点，你现在已经能够
And this is you're able
我认为应该自己保管。
to do this in self custody, I believe so.
对吧？
Right?
没错。
That's right.
完全正确。
That's exactly right.
我觉得很多人对此很高兴，因为我不确定。
Which I think a lot of people are happy about because I don't know.
过去发生过太多次资金损失了，你把保管权交给别人，万一发生超出你控制的事情就糟了。
There's been so many burns in the past where you put your custody with someone else, and then god forbid something outside of your control happens.
而自己保管，大部分情况下，安全程度取决于你自己。
And with self custody, for the most part, it's about as safe as you make it.
如果你把密码存下来并发布到网上，那就不太安全；但如果你把它写在纸上锁进保险箱，那就安全多了。
If you store your password and you post it online, not gonna be very If you lock it in a safe on a piece of paper, a whole lot more safe.
没错。
Exactly.
这些机构的安全级别相当惊人。
And these institutions, they have some pretty insane levels of security.
为了让你的听众有个大致了解，我不会点名这家公司，但他们是最大的比特币持有者之一。
Just to give your listeners a quick glimpse, you have I won't name the company, but they they're they're one of the largest Bitcoin holders.
他们拥有地理上分离的红队、绿队和蓝队。
They have red, green and blue teams geographically separated.
在每个地点，他们都有类似CIA的双门安全设施，也就是SCIF（S-C-I-F），进入后你会看到一台不联网的电脑，里面存放着密钥，你们会进行密钥仪式之类的操作。
And then at each site, they have this like CIA man trap secure facility, a SCIF, S C I F, that you go in and there's a not internet connected computer with keys and you do these key ceremonies and stuff like that.
房间外有武装警卫把守。
And there are armed guards outside that room.
这就是机构级别的比特币安全措施。
So that that is institutional grade Bitcoin security right there.
这既令人害怕又疯狂，但也有点酷。
That is scary and crazy, but also a little bit cool.
有一部分我觉得，哇，这真的很酷。
There's, like, the a part of me that's like, man, that is pretty cool.
说到这个，Hemi 还有哪些其他值得注意的产品呢？
When it comes well, I mean, what are some of HEMI's other notable products?
你知道，除了收益之外，你们还做了很多其他事情。
You know, there is yield, but there's a lot more going on that you all have been building.
我先从技术角度简单说一下。
So from a I'll start with a a quick technology standpoint.
Hemi 是一个二层网络（L2）。
Hemi is an L2, a layer two.
它能够执行所有熟悉的以太坊 EVM 智能合约。
It executes all the familiar Ethereum, EVM, smart contracts.
但因为我们团队技术背景非常深厚，我们做了一件几乎没人做过的事。
But since our team is very deep tech, we did something that almost no one else has done.
我们以兼容的方式扩展了 EVM，使其能够与比特币一层网络通信。
We extended that EVM in a compatible way to talk to Bitcoin L1.
世界上其他所有人都在编写智能合约，为以太坊编写智能合约。
And so everyone else on the planet, they're writing smart contracts, they're writing smart contracts for Ethereum.
在 HEMI 上的智能合约可以与两个区块链通信。
Smart contracts on HEMI, they can talk to two blockchains.
第一是 Hemi，第二是比特币。
Number one, Hemi, and then number two, Bitcoin.
这对开发者来说是全新且不同的。
And that's new and different for developers.
开发者实际上可以在这个以太坊 EVM 链上等待比特币支付。
Developers can actually wait for Bitcoin payments on this Ethereum EVM chain.
所以，对于非开发者来说，我可以说比特币编程现在被放大了无数倍。
So you got kinda, you know, for non developers, I'd say Bitcoin programming is now on steroids.
使用这个新的 Hemi 链，你可以在比特币 L1 链上用智能合约做更多事情。
You can do a whole lot more with the smart contracts on the Bitcoin L1 chain using this new Hemi chain.
我们拥有以太坊和比特币的通道。
We have Ethereum and Bitcoin tunnels.
其他人把这些叫做跨链桥。
That's what everyone else calls bridges.
它们非常安全。
Those are very secure.
它们还引入了零知识证明，并计划在2026年进行升级。
They are bringing zero knowledge proofs as well as an upgrade to that in 2026.
然后我们有一个我们称之为HVM的系统，而EVM是以太坊虚拟机。
And then we have a, what we call an HVM, the EVM, that's the Ethereum Virtual Machine.
它有一个节点。
It has a node.
我们再次做了一些别人从未做过的事。
We again did something no one else has done.
我们把一个真实的比特币节点嵌入到了以太坊节点内部。
We took a real Bitcoin node and embedded it inside the Ethereum node.
因此，你再次拥有了真实可用的比特币L1功能，可以用它来编写智能合约。
And so you have again, real live Bitcoin L1 capability that you can program your smart contracts with.
这就是我所说的比特币编程的加强版。
So that's what I mean by Bitcoin programming on steroids.
这使得各种跨链应用成为可能，比如Thor链、跨链合约，以及比大多数其他跨链更安全的通道。
That enables all sorts of kind of cross chain applications like a Thor chain, cross chain decks, far greater security of tunnels than most of the other cross chains.
最终，为每个人提供高速的ZKL三交易。
And ultimately, high speed ZKL three transactions for everyone.
这不禁让人想知道，你对山寨币市场怎么看？
Well, kind of begs the question, what do you think about the Altcoin market?
因为有一些人长期关注比特币。
Because we've had people who have been around in Bitcoin for a long time.
有时候，他们上来就说，我认为比特币是唯一的方式，其他都是骗局，他们是比特币极端主义者。
And some of the time, they come on and they say, I think Bitcoin's the only way and everything else is a scam, and I they they're Bitcoin Maxwell.
然后我们也有其他人上来说，嘿。
So then we have other people come on who say, hey.
比特币很棒。
Bitcoin is great.
他们仍然热爱比特币，但觉得看到山寨币能够兴起、发展和繁荣，将比特币背后原始的技术加以补充和改造，形成如今的山寨币，这非常有趣。
And they still love Bitcoin, but they say it's been cool to see altcoins be able to come up and grow and and flourish and take the original technology that was behind Bitcoin and kind of add to it and modify it into what Altcoins are now today.
我的意思是，你似乎对山寨币持开放态度。
I mean, it sounds like you're pretty open to Altcoins.
当然。
Absolutely.
关于这一点，其实有几种不同的看法。
And there's a there there are a couple ways to think about this.
回想一下2010年，那时你只生活在比特币的世界里。
You know, rewinding back to 2010, you're just you're in a Bitcoin only landscape.
你去哪儿找风险投资来启动你的业务呢？
Where are you gonna get the venture capital to start that business?
你没有可以赠送的魔法豆子，也没有山寨币作为激励手段。
You don't have a magic bean to give away, an altcoin to give away to for incentives or anything like that.
因此，创业变得困难得多。
So it makes building businesses a lot harder.
所以，初步来看，构建一个原生的比特币业务要困难得多。
So first first pass, it's just a lot harder to build a Bitcoin native business.
而且，愿上帝保佑我们。
And and god bless us.
我试过。
I tried.
在2010年，很多人都试过。
A lot of other people tried in 2010.
你知道，有少数人成功了，但大多数人失败了，如果没有山寨币，这真的很难。
You know, a few succeeded, many failed but that is tough without Altcoins.
第二点是构建总锁仓价值和流动性吸引力。
The second thing is just building TVL liquidity interest.
你该如何在众多噪音中脱颖而出？
How do you kind of cut through all the noise?
如果你没有一种方式吸引人们加入，而那正是工具箱中的一项工具，那你实际上是在自我限制。
And if you don't have a way to bring people in, then, and that's one of the tools in the toolbox, you're kind of handicapping yourself.
第三点，就是我之前提到的达尔文式的火炼考验。
And so, but the third one is, third point is Darwin's trial by fire that I mentioned earlier.
我们必须创新，必须尝试，必须假设风险投资者在进行投资时，已经预设了90%的投资会失败，不会带来任何回报。
Is we got to innovate, we got to try, we got to assume that again, venture capitalists, when they make an investment, they assume 90% of their investments will fail, will return nothing.
另外5%能收回本金，而最后的5%才是赚钱的地方，你知道的，所有的巨额回报都来自这里。
Another 5% will make back their money and the last 5% is going to, you know, that's where all the money is made.
你在这里才能获得千倍、万倍的回报，诸如此类的东西。
That's where you get the thousand X, you know, returns and stuff like that.
这被称为幂律分布，你在所有币种中都能看到同样的现象——你知道，作为一个宏观经济学的业余爱好者，从供需角度来看，我们有这么多代币。
That's that's called power law distribution and you see the same thing with all coins is that, you know, just looking at I'm a macro economist, amateur, supply and demand, we have so many tokens.
所以99.9%的代币都将一文不值，这是供需关系决定的。
So 99.9% of them will be worthless, supply and demand.
但剩下的0.1%将会留存下来，它们是珍宝，是有用的，能够支撑我们进入下一个周期。
But the other 0.1%, those are gonna be with us, those are gonna be gems, those are gonna be useful, those are gonna sustain us into the next cycle.
我觉得这真的非常非常正确，但对很多人来说，这很难接受。
I think that is so incredibly so incredibly true, and it's a hard pill for people to swallow.
听好了。
And listen.
你知道，如果你是听众，这一点应该很明显。
You know, if you're a listener, you it should be obvious.
我们热爱加密货币。
We love crypto.
我们是加密货币的忠实粉丝。
We're huge fans of crypto.
但大多数山寨币都不会成功。
But most altcoins aren't going to make it.
会有很多事情要做，但人们没意识到的是，仍然会有很多不会成功。
There's going to be a lot to do, but what people fail to understand is that there's still gonna be a lot that don't.
回想起2017年到2018年的那段行情，对我来说非常深刻，因为所有东西都上涨了。
And back in, like, I would say the twenty seventeen, twenty eighteen run was, like, profound for me because everything went up.
当时有成百上千，甚至可能上万种山寨币，几乎全都上涨了。
There was hundreds, if not maybe thousands of Altcoins, and pretty much everything went up.
好了，快进到现在，我刚看了下数据，目前在 CoinMarketCap 上公开列出的加密货币有2990万种。
Well, fast forward to the current day, I was just looking at the number, there is there's 29,900,000 cryptos publicly listed on coin market cap.
我可以向你保证，还有更多没被列出的。
I can promise you there's more than that out there that aren't listed.
它们都有记录。
There are recorded.
差不多有三千万种。
There's almost 30,000,000 of them.
你提出了一个很好的观点。
So you you make a good point.
这三千万种、接近三千万种加密货币中，有多少能真正爆发，成为长期持久的大型项目呢？
How many of those 30 mil almost 30,000,000 can actually blow up and be something big and long lasting overall over an extended period of time?
大多数都不行，但这不是关键。
Most of them can't, but it's not about most of them.
关键是那少数几个。
It's about the few.
你不需要所有东西都成功，但你需要的是真正构建出有意义的东西。
You don't need everything to succeed, but you what you need are things to actually build something that matters.
我认为我们至今仍在看到这一点。
And I think that's what we're still seeing.
我们看到了大量的加密货币，当然还有比特币，以及许多其他山寨币和利用区块链技术构建事物的项目，它们正在塑造金融的未来。
We're seeing a lot of cryptos, a lot of, you know, obviously, Bitcoin, but a lot of altcoins as well and projects just using blockchain tech that are building something that is shaping the future of finance.
我认为这就是为什么我们看到像贝莱德、摩根大通、花旗银行、美国银行这样的大型资产管理公司谈论稳定币、代币化以及他们感兴趣的其他领域，而且他们谈论这些时，就像在谈论未来一样。
And I think that's why we see these big asset managers like BlackRock, like JPMorgan, like Citibank, like Bank of America talking about things like stablecoins and tokenization and all these different areas that they're interested in using, and they're talking about this like it's the future.
所以当你提到这一点时，我在想到底有多少种加密货币存在，于是我去查了一下，忍不住说了这一大通。
So I I you when you were saying that, I was like, I wonder how many cryptos are in existence, and I had to check and go on my little rant.
但是
But
不对。
no.
要构建有意义的东西。
Build that matters.
这某种程度上无意中概括了我每天早上起床的原因：你知道，世界上有这么多实验、这么多噪音，但如果你回顾你最早提出的一个问题——为什么早上要起床？
That's that's kind of an unintended encapsulation of why I get up in the morning is that, you know, it, there, there are all these experiments, there's all this, you know, kind of noise out in the world, but if you, and this goes back to one of your earliest questions, Why get up in the morning?
为什么要做这件事？
Why do this?
加密货币为人们带来了自由。
Is crypto brings freedom to people.
加密货币为人们带来了选择和财富。
Crypto brings options to people, wealth to people.
它是许多现有系统的替代方案，而这些系统本身存在诸多问题。
And it's an alternative to many of the existing systems that do have existing problems.
因此，持有加密货币在文化层面也成了一种对冲方式。
And so there's a lot of kind of cultural hedging that goes on by holding crypto.
我认为，如果我们回望过去十五年，已经出现了三个杀手级应用。
And I think that if we look back over fifteen years, there's kind of three killer apps that have emerged.
比特币本身就是一个独立的杀手级应用。
Bitcoin, I'm going to say is a killer app in and of itself.
加密货币圈外的人，甚至整个加密行业之外，主流人群都知道比特币。
People on outside of crypto Twitter, forget about crypto industry, people in the mainstream have heard of Bitcoin.
他们在CNBC上谈论比特币。
They talk about Bitcoin on CNBC.
它已经突破了界限。
It's broken through.
这可以说是我的衡量标准。
That's kind of my litmus test.
比特币是第一大杀手级应用。
Bitcoin number one killer app.
第二大杀手级应用是什么？
What's the number two killer app?
稳定币。
Stablecoins.
稳定币已经突破了。
Stablecoins have broken through.
他们在CNBC和主流媒体上讨论稳定币，你甚至可以在Robinhood应用里使用稳定币，诸如此类。
They talk about stablecoins on CNBC and mainstream, and you got stablecoins in your Robinhood app and things like that.
所以稳定币正成为新的ACH，新的支付通道。
So it's becoming the new ACH, the new payment rail.
因此，稳定币是第三大杀手级应用。
And so stablecoins, the number two killer app.
第三大应用是预测市场，Poly Market已经从加密领域渗透到主流市场。
Number three, poly market prediction markets have broken through from crypto to the mainstream.
所以加密货币正在改变，回顾我的职业生涯，加密货币正在改变文化，改变世界。
And so crypto is changing, just the look back on my career, crypto is changing culture, it's changing the world.
你可能会被Solana上每天六万个代币的噪音所迷惑，但回过头看，加密货币正渗透到金融生活的每个角落。
You kind of get lost in the 60,000 tokens a day on Solana noise that the look back of crypto is is getting it into every corner of financial life.
人们正把越来越多的东西上链。
People are bringing more and more things on chain.
我记得十年前，沃尔玛想把生菜放到区块链上，这听起来非常荒谬。
I remember ten years ago, was super silly when Walmart wanted to bring lettuce on the blockchain.
我当时就想，这到底是什么意思？生菜上区块链？
And I'm like, what does that even mean, lettuce on the blockchain?
那时候有太多类似这种荒谬的提案，但真正重要的是，加密货币已经突破进入主流。
And you had so many silly pitches in that that kind of vein, but it's it you know, the real real is crypto has broken through to the mainstream.
不。
No.
它确实已经做到了。
It has.
我真的很高兴。
And I'm so glad.
那是我一度遗忘的记忆。
That was a lost memory that I had.
我记得那个标题，也记得当时讨论过这件事。
I remember that headline, and I remember talking about it.
在过去，我不确定。
And back in the day I I don't know.
在我还没加入团队之前，我就在做关于它的某种报告。
I was doing some some sort of report on it before I was even here with the team.
真有趣。
So funny.
我回想起那时候。
I I look back on that.
有时候我会想，那后来怎么样了？
And at times, I've thought, I'm like, whatever happened with that?
我们当时到底在做什么？
Like, where did what were we doing?
后来发生了什么？
What happened?
但现在，你知道，时间快进到今天，它已经取得了巨大进展，看到这一切真好。
But now, I mean, you know, now fast forward to the to the current day, and it's it's come so far, and it's it's great to see.
我想这不禁让人好奇，你觉得比特币的下一步会是什么？
I guess that kind of begs the question though, like, what do you think is next for Bitcoin?
我们已经经历了这样一个时期，你说得对。
We've gone through this period where you're right.
它在电视上被讨论。
It's being talked about on TV.
它在CNBC上被讨论。
It's being talked about in on CNBC.
它甚至在美國政府最高層級被討論。
It's being talked about at the top of the United States government's level.
我的意思是，總統都在談論它。
I mean, the president talks about it.
財政部長也在談論它。
The secretary treasury talks about it.
大家都在談論，我們有了這些ETF。
Everyone's talk we have these ETFs.
我們有了資產管理公司和銀行想要參與。
We have asset managers and banks who wanna get involved.
我们接下来该往哪里走？
Where do we go from here?
对于那些在问的人，接下来可能推动我们前进的催化剂是什么？
From for people who are asking, what are the next catalyst to to maybe push us forward?
比如，有吗？
Like, is there one?
嗯，坦白说，我的答案是咱们已经谈过了。
Well, you know, as very selfishly, my answer is we already covered it.
Hemi 上的比特币收益。
Bitcoin yield on Hemi.
这就是我非常自私的答案。
That's my very selfish answer.
更广泛地说，我认为人们正在回归比特币。
More broadly, I think people are coming back to Bitcoin.
但比特币呢，也许我会在这里说点有点争议的话，得罪你们一半的观众。
But Bitcoin is, maybe I'll be a little bit controversial here and piss off half your audience.
这有点像蒸汽机。
It's a little bit of a steam engine.
它有点陷入联合多重签名安全领域的困境。
It's a little bit of, know, it's kind of stuck in federated multi sig type security land.
托管起来稍微难一点，但这些问题正被Hemi等公司逐步解决。
It's a little bit harder to custody, but all of those problems are getting solved by firms like Hemi, other firms.
既然这些问题正在得到解决，人们又开始回归比特币，并寻找与比特币相关的机构级金融产品。
And so now that that's getting solved, again, are coming back to Bitcoin and they're looking for financial products related to Bitcoin, institutional grade financial products.
所以，我认为这不会是充满魅力的时代，而会是一个乏味但严谨的机构时代，人们会更安心地持有比特币。
So it's not gonna be, I think, the sexy era, but it's gonna be boring due diligence institutional era, where people are far more comfortable holding Bitcoin.
这有点像‘第四转折’，去网上搜一下吧，由于世界充满动荡，人们正重新回归黄金，也重新回归比特币。
There's kind of the fourth turning Google that out in the world and the folks are kind of coming back to gold, kind of coming back to Bitcoin with a lot of the chaos out in the world.
它是一种应对恶性通货膨胀货币的对冲工具。
It's kind of a hyperinflation hedge for currencies undergoing hyperinflation.
因此，有许多力量正将人们重新拉回最初的加密货币——比特币本身。
So, there's a lot of kind of forces pulling people back to the OG crypto Bitcoin itself.
说到收益，我想回到这个话题，因为我们经常与这里的各种ETF提供商和资产管理公司交流。
And when it comes to yield, I wanna go back to that because we get to talk to a lot of the different ETF providers and different asset managers and stuff over here.
而这对他们所有的产品来说都是非常重要的，对吧？
And that's something that they really want for all of their products, right?
他们希望获得尽可能多的收益，因为你得想象，现在他们管理的这些ETF中，有的持有数亿甚至数十亿美元，这些资金可以被动地产生收益。
The more yield that they can get, the better because you have to imagine that now with them having hundreds of millions or some of them billions and billions of dollars in these ETFs sitting there, they can earn a yield on it passively.
他们可以持有这些资金，收取一点费用，即使他们只拿走你质押收益的1%，对吧？
They can sit on it, charge a little bit of a fee, and even if they're taking 1% of the staking that's earned, right?
比如说，你赚了100美元，他们就拿走你质押收益中的1美元。
You know, say, you you make $100, they take $1 of that $100 that you made on staking.
即使他们每年只拿走数十亿美元收益的1%，对他们来说，这也是无本万利。
Even if they're taking 1% on billions of dollars every single year, for them, that's free money.
他们手握大量资金。
They're sitting on money.
他们只需要确保技术到位，再获得监管批准，几乎不需要做太多其他事情。
They need very little to do beyond getting the technology there and then getting regulatory approval.
然后就这样了。
And then that's it.
永久地，他们只是在赚取被动收入。
In perpetuity, they are just making passive money.
我们在以太坊上已经看到了这种需求。
And we have seen the desire for that in Ethereum.
我们在Solana上也看到了这种需求。
We've seen the desire of that in Solana.
这些都在增长，我认为Bitwise现在已经有了一只Solana质押ETF。
Those are now growing and, you know, you're able to I think Bitwise has one now that's a staking ETF for Solana.
但比特币ETF是资产管理规模最大的。
But the Bitcoin ETFs are the ones that have the most assets under management.
所以你可能会觉得，它们最有动力去实现这样的产品。
So you'd think that there's the most incentive to get something like that.
而且，我第一时间想到的就是，外面有这么多公司。
And again, that's immediately where my brain goes, is that there's all these companies out there.
他们喜欢赚钱。
They like making money.
这本来就是他们的全部目的。
That's their whole purpose in the first place.
所以我觉得Hemi真的很棒，而且很契合这个需求。
And so I think Hemi's really cool, and it kind of fits
没错。
the Absolutely.
市场对这种东西有强烈需求。
It's, there's a hunger for that.
Hemi正好处于绝佳的位置来满足这一点。
Hemi is perfectly positioned for that.
主要是因为这些大公司行动都很缓慢。
It's, mainly a matter of, all these big dogs move slow.
所以他们得通过各种尽职调查流程等等。
And so they gotta pass their due diligence checks, etcetera, etcetera.
所以你会看到事情是成波浪式发生的。
And so you you kind of see things happen in waves.
一旦监管批准通过，你就会看到在一周内出现了五个比特币ETF。
You saw like 5 Bitcoin ETFs happen within a week once the regulatory approval happened.
一旦比特币质押找到它的形式，你就会在一周或两周内看到所有这些DAT和ETF都开始质押。
And once Bitcoin staking finds its format, you're gonna find all these DATs and ETFs within a week, two weeks, they're all staking.
所以它们都竞争得非常激烈。
So they're all hyper competitive.
它们只需要通过监管的那些检查项即可。
They just gotta check those regulator checkboxes.
这确实是真的。
That is true.
幸运的是，现在它们做这些事变得容易了一点。
And luckily, it's a little bit easier for them now to do that.
但对于想参与HEMI的人来说，我们还是回到这一点上。
But for people who wanna get involved with HEMI, you know, let's go back to this.
你知道吗，如果有机构在关注，如果有个人在关注。
You know, if there's institutions watching, if there are individuals watching.
HEMI是适合每个人的吗？
Is is HEMI for everyone?
所以，如果你是一个拥有钱包的个人，你可以参与，还是说这只适合机构层面？
So if you're an individual person with a wallet, you can do it, or is it only for the institutional side?
当然。
Absolutely.
HEMI绝对是为每个人设计的。
It's HEMI is definitely for everyone.
我们有一个专注于机构的商务拓展团队。
We have institutional focused BD team.
我们还有一个开源社区板块。
We also have a open source community segment.
因此，无论你以什么层次加入Hemi社区，都绝对欢迎。
And so whatever level you're entering in the Hemi community, you're absolutely welcome.
Hemi。
Hemi.
Xyz 网站不仅是一个门户，还为寻求技术信息的开发者提供了大量文档，包括指向我们 GitHub 的链接。
Xyz on the web is not only a portal, also has plenty of documentation for developers looking for technical information, links to our GitHub.
一切都是开源的。
It's all open source.
我们就是这样做的。
That's how we roll.
从根本上说，这些是开放的无许可网络。
And fundamentally, these are, open permissionless networks.
如果你希望人们信任你，就绝不能在开放的无许可网络上使用闭源代码。
You never do closed source on an open permissionless network if you want people to trust you.
是的。
Absolutely.
如果有人想加入，他们可以在哪里找到你？比如你的网站，或者你的 X 账号之类的？
And where can people find you if they're trying to come in, they wanna go to your website, maybe your your ex account or something else?
人们如何关注你和Hemi呢？
Where can people follow both you and Hemi?
你可以关注我在Twitter上的账号：j garzik，也就是 j g a r z I k。
Well, you can follow me at j garzik, j g a r z I k, on Twitter.
我经常发一些非加密货币的内容，所以你得适应一下。
I am a frequent poster of non crypto stuff, so you're you gotta deal with that.
Hemi_underscore_x_y_z 是官方的 Hemi x 账号。
Hemi underscore x y z is the official Hemi x account.
请在那儿关注我们。
Follow us on there.
访问 hemi.xyz。
Go to hemi.xyz.
在你的 MetaMask 钱包中添加我们，访问我们的应用门户，获取优质的比特币收益并进行探索。
Add us in your MetaMask wallet and visit our app portal, get some great Bitcoin yield, and explore.
你最喜欢谈论的非加密货币话题是什么？
What's your favorite non crypto things to talk about?
非加密货币领域可能是太空。
Non crypto is probably space.
太空。
Space.
我特别喜欢科幻变成现实的感觉。
I just love science fiction becoming science fact.
我们正在谈论基于太空的数据中心、月球上的城市。
We're talking about space based data centers, cities on the moon.
我小时候去卡纳维拉尔角，观看航天飞机发射时，就一直在阅读这些内容。
I read about all that when I was a kid going to Cape Canaveral, watch space shuttle launches.
现在这些正成为现实。
Now it's coming true.
我们真的会在月球上建立城市。
We're really gonna have cities on the moon.
到本世纪末，我们真的会有人类登上月球。
We're really gonna have people on the moon by the end of this century.
哇。
Wow.
对于这个十年，抱歉。
For this decade, excuse me.
确实如此。
That it is.
我也觉得太空非常迷人。
I find space fascinating as well.
所以，我认为我们都可以同意，我们将在太空中做些酷炫的事情，而比特币也将进入太空，因为我们正把它送到月球。
And so, I think we can both agree that we are gonna do cool things in space, and Bitcoin's going to space as well because we're sending it to the moon.
当然。
Absolutely.
但说真的，杰夫，谢谢你来参加。
But, know, all jokes aside and everything, you know, Jeff, thank you for coming on.
我们感谢你抽出时间与我们在一起。
We appreciate your time and, you being with us.
我们肯定需要在这些事情逐渐成熟、行业不断发展时，再向你更新进展。
And we're definitely gonna have to get an update with you as all this stuff matures and the industry grows.
感谢你抽出时间与我们交流。
Appreciate your time with us.
谢谢你们邀请我。
Thanks for having me.
谢谢大家收听。
Thanks for listening.
每次交流都很愉快。
Always a good time.
百分百同意。
100%.
这也将为今天这一集画上句号，各位。
And that's gonna bring us to a wrap in today's episode, everyone.
感谢大家的收听。
Thank you all for listening.
这确实是一期独一无二的节目，我们下周同一时间、同一地点再见。
This has truly been a one of a kind episode, and we'll see all of you at the same time, same place next week.
保重。
Take care.
关于 Bayt 播客
Bayt 提供中文+原文双语音频和字幕，帮助你打破语言障碍，轻松听懂全球优质播客。