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欢迎收听由Gemini出品的加密货币101播客，这里是通往未来货币的桥梁。
Welcome to the Crypto one zero one podcast presented by Gemini, your bridge to the future of money.
好了，各位。
Alright, everyone.
欢迎回到加密货币101播客。
Welcome back to the crypto one zero one podcast.
希望外面的每个人今天都过得愉快。
Hope everyone is having a great day out there.
我跟你们说啊。
I'll tell you what.
这期播客一定会非常精彩。
This is gonna be a really exciting podcast.
我知道我们每次都说。
I know we come in.
我们总说每期都会非常精彩。
We say they're all gonna be really exciting.
稍微自夸一下。
A little bit of a humble brag.
我只是觉得这是因为我们邀请的嘉宾都是最棒的。
I just think it's because we bring in the best guests.
但今天这一期会非常熟悉。
But today is gonna be a very, very familiar one.
你们中的大多数人应该都知道这个项目是谁做的，团队是谁，以及他们的很多工作。
Most of you are gonna know who the project is, who the team is, a lot of their work.
我认为你们会发现这很有趣，因为我们不仅能深入探讨以太坊，还能专门深入探讨以太坊的二层解决方案。
And I think you're gonna find it interesting because we get to take a deep dive into not only Ethereum, but specifically the layer two side of Ethereum.
所以今天，我们邀请到了王静。
So today, we're joined here by Jing Wang.
她是Optimism的创始人兼首席执行官。
She is the founder and CEO of Optimism.
王静，欢迎来到节目。
Jing, welcome to the show.
很高兴你能来。
It's great to have you.
是的。
Yeah.
谢谢你们邀请我。
Thanks for having me.
对所有观看视频的观众来说，这挺有趣的。
You know, it's funny for all of the video listeners out there.
如果你在YouTube或我们其他有视频的平台观看，我们刚才在闲聊，因为我和我们的制片人Tivo刚进来，我穿着一件T恤。
If you're watching on YouTube or one of our other sources where we have video, we're just bantering a little bit before this because myself and our producer, Tivo, we are coming in here, I'm wearing a T shirt.
我有点晒伤了，而Jing却裹得严严实实。
I'm a little bit sunburnt, and Jing is bundled up.
我们两人来自美国不同的地方，而这场暴风雪正席卷全国。
And so we're just coming in from two different places of The United States as this snowstorm is hitting us across the board.
所以，Jing，我们非常感谢你专程前来。
And so, Jing, you know, we are appreciative of you coming in.
我们开玩笑说，嘿。
We are joking that, hey.
你是CEO。
You you're the CEO.
你本可以说，嘿。
You could have said, hey.
我们今天放假，下雪天休息。
We're taking a snow day.
我们今天休息。
We're taking the day off.
但你说不。
But you're saying, no.
你知道，你还是要来。
You know, you're gonna be here.
当然，你有很多精彩的内容要分享。
And, of course, you have a lot of great things to talk about.
而且加密货币市场从不休息，尤其是当它去中心化的时候，再加上你在家工作，这本身也是一个重要因素。
And the crypto market never sleeps, especially when it's decentralized and, you know, you work at home, which is always gonna be a factor as well.
但 Jing，无论如何，很高兴你来到这里。
But, Jing, nonetheless, great to have you here.
我的意思是，我们直接开始吧，让观众对你有个简单的了解。
I mean, let's just kind of get started and let the audience know a little bit about you.
你是什么时候开始对参与以太坊工作产生兴趣的？
At what point did you first become interested in working with Ethereum?
因为简单提一句，为了提前说明一下，Optimism 实际上是以太坊最主要的二层解决方案之一。
Because a short little note in you know, to to front run this idea is that, you know, optimism is is really one of the leading two layer twos for Ethereum.
现在，对于所有正在收听的听众，如果你在想：什么是二层？
Now for everyone out there that's listening and you're saying, what's a layer two?
二层通常被称为扩容解决方案。
A layer two is often referred to as a scaling solution.
它是在以太坊之上构建的一层，通常运行得更快、成本更低。
It is a layer that is built on top of Ethereum that typically operates faster, cheaper.
你可以在上面做更复杂的事情。
You can do more complex things on it.
近年来，二层解决方案变得极其流行，我们稍后会进一步讨论。
And layer twos have become extremely popular in recent years, and we're gonna talk more about this.
所以，Jing，你是什么时候第一次对以太坊产生兴趣，甚至了解到它的呢？
And so, you know, at what point, Jing, did you first become interested and even maybe find out about Ethereum?
我以前其实是个比特币信徒。
I actually used to be a Bitcoiner.
我通过为比特币杂志撰稿而熟悉了Vitalik的作品。
I became familiar with Vitalik's work writing for Bitcoin Magazine.
我记得读过他关于BIP32、分层确定性钱包的文章，当时作为一名大学生，我被他清晰的技术写作和对复杂主题的简洁解释深深吸引。
I remember reading his article on BIP32, Hierarchical Deterministic Wallets, and just being completely taken away by the clarity of technical writing, the simplicity with which he explained what, I found to be a complex topic at the time as a student in college.
因此，我通过他了解了Vitalik，进而了解了以太坊。
And so that's how I became familiar with Vitalik and then with Ethereum.
2017年，当机会出现时，我接受了以太坊基金会的合同，与Carl一起从事密码经济学研究，而Carl当时被任命为我们的入职伙伴。
And when the opportunity, presented itself in 2017, I took up a contract with the Ethereum Foundation working on cryptoeconomics research alongside Carl, who was appointed as our, you know, onboarding buddy at the time.
我那非正式入职培训班的另一个人其实是海登，他后来创办了Uniswap。
And the other person in my kind of unofficial onboarding class was actually Hayden, who ended up starting Uniswap.
哇。
Wow.
这些事到底是哪一年发生的？
And what year was all this again?
那是2016年底到2017年初。
This was late twenty sixteen, early twenty seventeen.
哇。
Wow.
是的。
Yeah.
我的意思是，对于听众来说，这甚至比我说的第一次真正的山寨币季节还要早。
I mean, that's even before for the listeners out there, that's really before what I would say is the first real alt season.
我认为我们大多数人都是在2017年到2018年期间感受到第一次真正的山寨币季节的。
I think most of us felt the first real alt season around 2017 leading into 2018.
所有这些发生之后，就自然而然地带来了乐观情绪。
And so all that happens, and then that kinda leads into optimism.
对吧？
Right?
所以给我们讲讲建立Optimism的过程吧，是什么促使你们做出这个决定？你们在Optimism究竟致力于什么？
So walk us through that process of of founding optimism, what led to that decision, And really, what you guys are all about over at Optimism.
是的。
Yeah.
第一类扩容方案被称为Plasma。
So the first category of scaling solutions was called Plasma.
我们迭代了大约十几种不同的设计方案，每种都有各自的技术权衡细节。
And we iterated through, like, a dozen different designs, each with, you know, various minutiae in the technical trade offs.
但当时，使用加密货币的人并不多。
But at the time, you know, there weren't a lot of people using crypto.
CryptoKitties只是一个单一的应用程序，但它在2017年迅速走红，直接把网络压垮了。
And CryptoKitties was just a single app, and, it really took off in 2017, and it brought the network to its knees.
通常情况下，购买一只CryptoKitty所需的手续费甚至超过了CryptoKitty本身的价格，这对于想要构建应用的用户来说是一种极差的体验。
Oftentimes, the fees required to purchase a CryptoKitty were in excess of the cost of the CryptoKitty itself, which is which is really a terrible user experience if you're trying to build an application.
交易时间通常在十分钟到十五分钟之间。
And transactions were, like, anywhere between ten and fifteen minutes.
交易手续费最高可达25美元。
Transaction fees could be up to $25.
因此，Plasma是一种理论上可无限扩展每秒交易量的解决方案。
And so Plasma was this theoretically, you know, infinitely scalable transactions per second solution.
但它要求你用另一种语言编写智能合约。
It just required you to write the contracts, smart contracts in a different language.
当我们开始与更多开发者交流时，我们意识到这并不可行。
And as we started talking to more developers, we realized this was not an option.
于是我们重新开始设计，开发出了乐观滚轮（Optimistic Rollups），它让你能够直接将原本在以太坊上的Solidity智能合约，几乎只需一键就迁移到一个更具扩展性的环境中。
And so we went back to the drawing board and we developed optimistic roll ups, which enabled you to take the exact same Solidity smart contracts that you had on Ethereum and port them over into a more scalable environment in essentially a single click.
因此，乐观滚轮（Optimistic Rollups）的关键创新就在于此。
So that was really the key innovation of Optimistic Rollups.
关于这一点，我们完成了种子轮融资，之后的事就都是历史了。
And on that, we raised our seed round and the rest is history.
是的。
Yeah.
现在你们已经存在了大约七年了吧？
And now you all have been around since, I mean, what, for about seven years now.
对吗？
Is that right?
天啊。
Oh, god.
看起来是这样。
It seems like that.
我记得应该是2019年左右，至少我的记忆是这样的。
I believe it was around 2019, at least if my memory serves correct.
所以，你们的宗旨肯定在这几年里发生了变化。
And so the the purpose, I'm sure, has evolved over the years.
随着加密行业的发展，你觉得乐观主义如今的主要目标是什么？
As the crypto industry has evolved, what would you say that the primary purpose of optimism is now?
我的意思是，使命一直没变，只是表达方式变了。
I mean, I would say the mandate has always been the same, but the packaging has evolved.
目标始终是实现安全、去中心化、可扩展的计算。
The goal has always been secure, decentralized, scalable computation.
我们对延迟、每秒交易量以及需要处理的气体吞吐量的理解已经发生了变化和演进。
Our understanding of, like, the latency or the transactions per second, the gas throughput that we need to process has changed and evolved.
不同的应用场景会对网络的不同部分造成不同的压力。
Different use cases strain different parts of your network differently.
在2017年，我们根本不知道哪个会成为杀手级应用。
And, you know, we didn't know what the killer app was gonna be in 2017.
是的。
Yeah.
一个精心打造的衣橱，关键在于那些能相互搭配、经久耐用的单品。
A well built wardrobe is about pieces that work together and hold up over time.
而这就是Quince最擅长的地方。
And that's what Quince does best.
采用优质材料、精心设计，以及日常必备单品，无论天气如何变化，都穿着舒适、值得信赖。
Premium materials, thoughtful design, and everyday staples that feel easy to wear and easy to rely on, even as the weather shifts.
Quince拥有我钟爱的日常必需品，品质经久耐用。
Quince has the everyday essentials I love with quality that lasts.
有机棉毛衣、适合各种场合的Polo衫，以及在季节更替时依然能保暖的轻便夹克。
Organic cotton sweaters, polos for every occasion, lighter jackets that keep you warm in the changing seasons.
这样的例子还有很多。
The list goes on.
Quince直接与顶级工厂合作，省去了中间商环节。
Quince works directly with top factories and cuts out the middleman.
因此，你支付的不是品牌溢价，而是真正的优质服装。
So you're not paying for brand markup, just quality clothing.
所有产品都旨在经受日常穿着的考验，依然能四季如新、保持良好外观。
Everything is built to hold up to daily wear and still look good season after season.
朋友们，我从Quince买的外套在这个假期去北方过冬时简直完美。
Guys, the coat I got from Quince was perfect for when I went home up north for the cold winter this holiday season.
我收到了很多赞美。
I got so many compliments.
它太棒了，看起来就像刚从盒子里拿出来一样。
It was perfect, and it still looks like it just came out of the box.
我会穿很多年，因为质量真的很好。
I'll be wearing it for years to come because the quality is that good.
而且他们还有好多其他很棒的产品。
Also, they have so many awesome other things.
我超爱他们的运动衫。
I love their workout shirts.
他们的Polo衫也很棒。
They have awesome polos.
我买了几件衬衫用于约会之夜，还买了一些看起来很酷的太阳镜。
I got a couple button downs to wear for date night and even some sunglasses that look cool.
我买这些东西是因为质量很好，而且在quince.com网上购物的体验非常有趣。
I got all this stuff because the quality is great and the online shopping experience for quince.com is super fun.
他们真的有太多选择了。
They literally have so many options.
所以浏览他们的网站购物对我来说真的是一种享受，而且产品也完全匹配。
So going on their website and shopping is literally something that I truly enjoyed, and the products match.
所有商品都经得起日常穿着，经年累月依然保持良好外观。
Everything is built to hold up to daily wear and still looks good season after season.
朋友们，我这个假期去北方时买的那件外套简直完美。
Guys, the coat I got for my northern visit this holiday season was perfect.
它在寒冷天气里让我保暖，而且看起来还像刚从盒子里拿出来一样新。
It kept me warm in the cold weather, and it still looks brand new out of the box.
所以我以后还会继续穿它。
So I'm gonna be wearing it for seasons to come.
而且朋友们，价格简直太棒了。
And guys, the price was spectacular.
这家网店非常有趣且易于使用。
The online store is so fun and so easy.
如果你感兴趣，一定要去看看 quince.com。
So if you're interested in that, you gotta go check out quince.com.
用 Quince 更新你的衣橱。
Refresh your wardrobe with Quince.
前往 quince.com/crypto101，享受免费配送和365天无理由退换货。
Go to quince.com/crypto101 for free shipping on your order and three hundred and sixty five day returns.
现在在加拿大也已上线。
Now available in Canada too.
这就是 Quince，quince.com/crypto10one。
That's Quince, quince.com/crypto10one.
免费配送，365天退换货。
Free shipping and 365 day returns.
quince.com/crypto10one。
Quince.com/crypto10one.
新年通常意味着新设备。
New Year usually means new devices.
从祖父母的手机、笔记本电脑、平板电脑，到孩子们的设备，或者至少是更多地在线活动。
Phones, laptops, tablets from grandma all the way down to the kids, or at least spending more time online.
这让我重新意识到需要认真考虑数字安全了。
That's been a good reminder to actually think about digital security again.
我一直在使用Webroot，特别是他们的全方位保护计划，如果你需要的不仅仅是杀毒软件，这是一个一体化的选择。
I've been using Webroot, specifically their total protection plan, which is an all in one option if you want coverage beyond just antivirus.
让我印象深刻的是，它结合了实时杀毒防护，防范恶意软件和网络钓鱼骗局，身份监控与警报，更重要的是，如果发生身份盗窃，最高可提供100万美元的费用报销，用于符合条件的自付费用。
What stood out to me is that it combines real time antivirus protection against things like malware and phishing scams, identity monitoring with alerts, and this is a big one, up to $1,000,000 in expense reimbursement for eligible out of pocket costs if identity theft ever becomes an issue.
全方位保护还包含密码管理器和网络威胁防护工具，可在你访问前阻止恶意网站，此外还能保护多台设备甚至家庭成员，且不会拖慢系统速度或弹出大量广告。
Total protection also includes tools like a password manager and web threat protection that blocks malicious sites before you visit them, plus options to protect multiple devices and even family members, all without slowing your system down or throwing constant pop ups at you.
所以，情况是这样的。
So here's the deal.
新年，新设备。
New year, new device.
无论你是升级设备还是继续使用现有的，现在都是以六折优惠使用Webroot值得信赖的网络安全解决方案保护所有设备的好时机。
Whether you're upgrading tech or sticking with what you've got, now's the time to protect all your devices at 60% off with Webroot's trusted cybersecurity solutions.
访问 webroot.com/crypto101，享受六折优惠。
Visit webroot.com/crypto101 and get 60% off.
再次提醒，是 webroot.com。
Again, that's webroot.com.
webrot.com/crypto101 可享六折优惠。
Webrot.com/crypto101 for 60% off.
此优惠仅通过 crypto101 链接有效，所以请务必使用它：webroot.com/crypto101，即可享受高达六折的全保护计划优惠。
This offer is only available through the crypto101 link, so make sure you use it webroot.com/crypto101 and get up to 60% off their total protection plan.
今年，选择适合你的防护方案，与 Webroot 一起享受更优质的数字生活。
This year, choose protection that's right for you and live a better digital life with Webroot.
你有兴趣轻松扩大你的比特币投资组合吗？
Are you interested in effortlessly growing your Bitcoin portfolio?
我确实有兴趣。
I sure am.
Gemini信用卡在每次消费时都会返还比特币。
The Gemini credit card earns you Bitcoin back on every purchase.
购买午餐、加油，甚至每周采购杂货时，只需像使用其他信用卡一样使用它，即可立即获得高达4%的比特币或其他50多种加密货币返现，直接存入您的账户。
Use it just like any other credit card when you buy lunch, gas, or even just your weekly groceries, and you'll earn up to 4% back instantly in Bitcoin or one of over 50 other cryptos straight to your account.
而且没有任何年费。
All that with no annual fee.
这是开始积累比特币的最佳方式。
It's the easiest way to start building your Bitcoin stack.
各位，我们每期节目都会提到Gemini，我们非常感谢他们成为我们的赞助商，因为我们确实使用他们的产品，无论是交易所还是信用卡。
Guys, you've heard us talk about Gemini now every single episode, and we love and appreciate that they've been a sponsor because we use their products, whether it's the exchange or the card.
他们在这个领域已经领先了很长时间。
They have been leaders in the space for so long.
所以，如果您想通过日常消费赚取加密货币奖励，请前往gemini.com/card了解更多信息。
So if you're interested in earning crypto rewards for your everyday spending, go to gemini.com/card to learn more.
条款适用。
Terms apply.
有关利率和费用的更多信息，请参见描述中的链接。
See the link in the description for more information regarding rates and fees.
由WebBank发行。
Issued by WebBank.
即时奖励有一些例外情况。
Some exclusions to instant rewards apply.
这不是投资建议，交易加密货币存在风险。
This is not investment advice in trading crypto involves risk.
有关利率和费用的更多详情，请查看Gemini网站。
Check Gemini's website for more details on rates and fees.
是的。
Yeah.
我觉得这很有道理。
I I think that makes sense.
我们在这里有幸做的一件事，就是与以太坊主网的一些开发者以及像你们这样的多个二层网络进行交流。
And one of the things that we've gotten to do over here, we've had the pleasure of doing it, is talking to both some of the Ethereum main net devs and talking to several of the different layer twos like yourself.
我总是喜欢问他们，还有像你这样的人，你们觉得以太坊一层、以太坊主网和像Optimism这样的二层网络各自的目标是什么？
And I always like to ask them, like and people like yourself, like, what you think or what do you think is the purpose of the Ethereum l one, the Ethereum main net versus the purpose of l twos, like, optimism?
我的意思是，Vitalik在他的愿景文章中已经说得非常清楚了。
I mean, I think Vitalik stated it incredibly clearly in his vision post.
以太坊的核心是抗审查、韧性与去中心化，它绝不会在这些方面做出妥协。
Ethereum is for censorship resistance, resilience, decentralization, and it will never compromise on those things.
即使这意味着成本更高，即使这意味着延迟更长，这些才是以太坊一层所追求的关键特性。
Even, if it means the cost is higher, even if it means, latency is worse, Those are the key properties that the Ethereum l one is optimizing for.
我非常喜欢这一点。
And I love that.
拥有一个始终如一、永不改变的明确原则，能让二层网络更容易在基础层之上做出不同的权衡。
Like, having a very clear set of principles that never changes makes it so much easier for l twos to make different trade offs, on top of the base layer.
我们依赖基础层来保障我们的安全承诺。
And we rely on the base layer for our security guarantees.
所以这一点非常重要。
So that's important.
对于L2来说，L2的美妙之处在于你可以自由定制其环境。
For L2s, the beauty of L2s is that it's an environment that you can customize at will.
因此，不同的L2会做出截然不同的权衡。
And so different l twos will make vastly different trade offs.
一个L2链的安全特性可能与另一家公司的L2大不相同。
Security profile of one l two chain could be very different from another l two developed by another company.
我们主要帮助企业和这些大型超级应用搭建他们自己的区块链环境。
We basically help, enterprises or these, like, large super apps spin up their own blockchain environments.
他们通常不希望应对其他应用带来的流量高峰。
They typically don't want to deal with the spikes of traffic produced by other applications.
他们希望为用户群体提供稳定可预测的费用，并为自己的用户打造最理想的体验。
They want consistent estimable fees for their user base, and they want to build the most ideal user experience for their user base.
例如，WorldChain会相对不太关注DeFi活动，而更注重为普通用户保持费用稳定。
So WorldChain, for example, will care a little bit less about DeFi activity and more about keeping fees consistent for their human users.
目前World在新兴国家正迅速崛起，那里的平均交易金额仅为25美分，这与Base等平台上常见的交易模式截然不同。
And World is blowing up in emerging countries right now, where the average transaction size is only 25¢, which is so different from the transaction profile that you see on, like, base.
因此，对于World，我们在排序和排序其区块链上的交易时，采用了优先人类排序机制。
So for World, we have things like priority human ordering when we order and sequence transactions on their blockchain.
像这样的小定制功能在以太坊L1上是无法实现的，但你可以通过你的L2来使用。
So small customizations like this that aren't available on Ethereum l one, you can use your l twos for.
我很高兴你提到了World，因为可能有一些听众并不熟悉在Optimism上构建的许多项目。
I'm glad that you brought up world because there's probably listeners out there who aren't familiar with a lot of the projects that are built on optimism.
你能为我们介绍一下一些在Optimism上构建或通过Optimism推出的最知名、最大型，或者你个人最喜爱的项目吗？
So could you walk us through a couple of maybe the most well known or the biggest or maybe just your favorite when it comes to projects that have been built on or through optimism?
是的。
Yeah.
你知道，人工智能正在迅速发展。
I mean, AI is taking off, as you know.
像Reddit或约会应用等各种平台正被机器人大量涌入。
And various platforms like Reddit or dating applications are being flooded with bots.
World的核心理念是，验证你确实是人类将变得非常有价值。
And World's Whole thesis is that verifying that you're truly a human is going to be valuable.
他们为此已经努力了许多年，这一理念正被证明是正确的，他们正处于这一领域的前沿。
And they've been working at this for many, many years, and that thesis is proving out to be correct, and they're at the forefront of it.
这是一个非常酷的非金融应用场景。
So, that's a really cool non financial use case.
我认为这极其重要，非常合理，我非常兴奋世界项目是我们的一位客户。
I think it's incredibly important, very legitimate, and I'm very, very excited that World is one of our customers.
Base 显然在推动可能性的边界。
Base is obviously pushing the envelope for what's possible.
他们真正是在构建一个全球金融体系，无论是在监管层面还是产品创新层面，都在开辟道路。
They truly are building a global financial system and paving the way, whether it's on the regulatory front or on the product innovation front.
他们最近在旧金山举办的活动上，推出了十几种不同的交易、借贷和预测产品。
Their most recent event in San Francisco, they launched like a dozen different trading, lending, prediction products.
非常、非常令人印象深刻。
Super, super impressive.
我认为，现在在开放网络上，我们有机会更快地创新、更快地推出产品，并触达更广泛的用户群体。
I think there's an opportunity right now to innovate more quickly, launch products more quickly, and reach a wider distribution of users on an open network.
因此，我们所有的客户都在以某种形式做这件事。
And so all of our customers are doing some form of that.
例如，索尼在Sonium上对索尼知识产权进行代币化，这也是值得关注的。
Sony, for example, in tokenizing Sony IP on Sonium, I think is also something to watch out for.
所以听起来，我们再次从许多不同项目的负责人和参与者那里听到过，L1就像是一个非常广泛的工具，我不想说是万能的，但确实用途很广。
So it sounds like and we've again, we've kind of heard this from a lot of the different project, you know, owners and people who are part of these things is that, you know, the l one is kind of this big I don't wanna say all purpose, but very broad brush that you can use.
而说到L2，它们则更加专业化，专注于特定的工作、任务、业务需求或需要解决的具体问题。
And when it comes to l twos, it's a little bit more niche and focused on a job or a task or a business that needs to be done or specific problems that need to be addressed.
我认为这就是它的优势所在，听起来确实如此。
And I think that's where the the strength that's what it sounds like.
这些L2的优势就体现在这里。
That's where the strength of these l twos come in.
对吗？
Correct?
是的。
Yeah.
完全正确。
Totally.
这确实是一种不错的说法。
That's definitely one way to put it.
是的。
Yeah.
所以我读到，乐观支持的网络已增长到占以太坊活动的62%以上。
And so I I read that optimism supported networks grew to represent 62 just over 62% of Ethereum's activity.
这是真的吗？
Is that true?
如果是的话，哪些领域对此贡献最大？
And if so, what areas contributed the most to that?
在所有二层网络中，这是我们所占的市场份额。
Among all l twos, that's our market share.
好的。
Okay.
在加密货币前100条区块链中，我认为我们的市场份额大约是14%。
Among the top 100 blockchains in crypto, I think we're around 14% market share.
哇。
Wow.
我认为Solana处理的交易比我们多，不过我得再确认一下，但我觉得没有其他任何技术栈的交易量能超过我们。
I think Solana processes more transactions than we do, and I'd have to double check this, but I don't think there's any other stack that exceeds the number of transactions that we process.
是什么造就了这一点？
What has produced that?
我的意思是，我们的交易速度极快，成本极低，通常不到一分钱的百分之一，且确认时间少于250毫秒。
I mean, transactions are incredibly fast and incredibly cheap, usually less than a hundredth of a cent, and they confirm in less than 250.
但我认为真正促成这一点的是，我们的运作方式是深度融入你们的团队，因为相比互联网基础设施，这项技术仍然相当早期。
But I think really what has produced that is that the way we operate is we embed into your team since this infrastructure is still pretty nascent compared to, you know, Internet infrastructure.
而且这些应用场景彼此之间也差异很大。
And a lot of these use cases are also pretty different from each other.
我们会与每一位合作伙伴深入合作，充分理解他们的战略。
We really get in there with each of our partners, and we understand their strategies.
我们的内部信条是成为他们团队中不可区分的一员。
Our internal mantra is to become indistinguishable from someone on their team.
只有这样，我们才能将正确的产研思维和正确的架构直觉带入到基础架构的推进中。
And then and only then can we bring the correct product mindset, the correct architectural intuitions into how we progress the underlying infrastructure.
我的意思是，尽管在这些特定领域，62%的L2市场份额已经相当高了。
I mean, when it comes to these specific areas, though, I mean, 62% market share amongst l twos is is a lot.
对吧？
Right?
你知道，这是一个非常主导的数字。
You know, that is a it's a pretty dominant number.
目前，你们在哪些领域或垂直行业看到最多增长或兴趣？
What areas, what verticals are you seeing the most growth or interest in right now?
因为人们看到各种不同的新闻头条。
Because people see all these different headlines.
对吧？
Right?
这些头条新闻总是不断变化。
And the headlines, they always change.
哦，NFT很火。
Oh, NFTs are hot.
模因币很火。
Meme coins are hot.
游戏很火。
Gaming's hot.
稳定币很火。
Stable coins are hot.
隐私、代币化。
Privacy, tokenization.
而且它一直在变化。
And it's constantly changing.
而现在，你正看到大量关于代币化和稳定币的新闻。
And right now, you are seeing a lot of, like, tokenization and stable coin headlines.
但哪些领域才是真正贡献最大的呢？
But what areas are truly contributing the most here?
是的。
Yeah.
完全正确。
Totally.
主要是交易。
Mostly trading.
你知道，人们希望将他们的资产通证化，以期他人进行交易。
You know, people want to tokenize their assets with the hopes that others will trade it.
每条链希望交易的资产类型往往不同。
The types of assets that each chain wants to trade tends to be different.
在一条链上的某个交易所可能存在的套利机会，与同一交易所但在另一条链上是不同的。
The kinds of arbitrage opportunities that might exist on one exchange on one chain would be different from that same exchange on another chain.
因此，每条链的运营方，无论是Uniswap还是Coinbase，都有略微不同的假设，希望借此测试其业务增长。
And so each chain operator, whether it's Uniswap or Coinbase, has slightly different hypotheses that they want to test for the growth of their business.
我们介入其中，构建独特的、细致的功能或加速器，帮助他们更快地验证这些假设。
And we get in there and we build the unique nuanced features or accelerators that help them test those hypotheses more quickly.
你认为你之前提到的交易和其他一些领域，
Do you think that some of those same areas you mentioned trading and other things?
你是否觉得其中一些也是今年最值得关注的行业？
You Do think some of those are are also some of the most important sectors to watch out for this year?
是的。
Yeah.
完全正确。
Totally.
最重要的行业。
The most important sector.
我的意思是，至少如果你在加密货币领域的话。
I mean, at least if you're in crypto
嗯。
Mhmm.
他们相信这是金融的未来。
Who believe that this is the future of finance.
金融将上链。
Finance will come on chain.
在几乎所有方面，它都明显更优。
It is net better in almost every way.
我的意思是，用户体验终将跟上。
I mean, the UX will get there.
用户体验每年都在改善。
The UX has improved year over year.
但这些市场天生就是24小时全天候开放的。
But these are markets that are naturally open twenty four seven.
这些是天然的全球市场，快速，你知道的，低于250毫秒。
These are naturally global markets, fast, you know, sub 250 millisecond.
事物的结算速度极快。
Things settle incredibly quickly.
已经有一套每个协议都共享的标准。
There's already a set of standards that every protocol shares.
这些是传统金融体系要么没有、要么花了数十年才好不容易建立起来的东西。
And these are things that the traditional financial system either doesn't have or has worked very hard over decades to get.
所以，是的，金融确实在向链上迁移。
So, yeah, definitely finance is coming on chain.
交易和借贷是其中的一部分，也是2026年的重点。
Trading, lending, these are parts of it and a focus for 2026.
你说得对。
You're right about that.
而且我们看到一股强大的趋势，正在推动资产代币化。
And we see a huge push towards tokenizing.
我的意思是，你看到黑石的拉里·芬克在谈论这个。
I mean, you see Larry Fink from BlackRock talk about it.
你看到摩根大通的杰米·戴蒙也在谈论这个。
You see Jamie Dimon from JPMorgan talk about it.
我们 personally 谈到了美国银行和花旗的报告，等等，名单还很长。
We personally talked about reports from Bank of America and Citi, and and the list goes on.
而且在这方面已经有很多推动。
And there's been a lot of push for this.
现在纳斯达克也出来了，说：嘿。
And now Nasdaq has come out and said, hey.
你知道，我们想先推出一个24/5的市场，然后逐步向24/7的市场迈进。
You know, we wanna start having a twenty four five market, and then we wanna work our way towards a twenty four seven market.
而且你看到他们说：嘿。
And you're seeing them say, hey.
如果加密货币市场长期以来如此成功地做到了这一点，那它实际上已经为这种理念树立了标准，显然交易员们很喜欢。
If the crypto market has done it so successfully for so long, they've kinda set the standard for this idea, and clearly traders like it.
你说得对。
And you're right.
你知道，我们正看到传统市场，甚至像纳斯达克这样庞大的机构，开始向这个方向靠拢并建立合作。
You know, we are seeing the traditional markets, even things as as large as Nasdaq, start moving towards that and create partnerships.
而且这似乎正是他们想要前进的明确方向，我觉得这非常有趣。
And it seems like that's the clear direction that they wanna head in, which which I find fascinating.
因此，如果他们公开宣布这些事情，我认为听众需要关注哪些领域能够支持这种基础设施的建设与发展。
And so if they're publicly announcing this stuff, I think that listeners need to be on the watch for what supports that kind of infrastructure and build out.
而目前，我认为大多数人基本都能达成共识。
And right now, I think most people can, you know, largely agree.
你知道，你可以说，嘿。
You know, they can you can say, hey.
这部分市场份额可能会流向其他一些区块链。
Some of this market share might go to some of these other chains.
也许一部分会流向这里，一部分流向那里。
Maybe some goes here and there.
而且，你知道，竞争始终存在，但从机构角度来看，目前以太坊整体看起来在机构最关注的基础设施领域赢得了领先优势。
And, you know, there's always gonna be competition, but it does look as if right now from an institutional standpoint that Ethereum, you know, in its entirety looks like it's winning the race in terms of where institutions are the most focused on infrastructure.
基础设施。
Infrastructure.
你是否也觉得你正在看到类似的
Would you kind of say that you're seeing similar
情况？
stuff?
我同意这一点。
I agree with that.
以太坊具有极强的持久性。
Ethereum is incredibly Lindy.
它已经证明自己是巨额资本的可靠托管者。
It's proven itself as a trustworthy steward of an insane amount of capital.
我认为机构和企业都看到了他们的去中心化金融同行有多么成功。
I think institutions and enterprises see how successful their DeFi counterparts have been.
像Aave和Uniswap这样的公司本身就是行业巨头。
And, you know, companies like Aave and Uniswap are behemoths in their own right.
你还能看到这些公司正积极推动合法化，并开始提供一些更传统的金融服务，比如Aave最近推出了其应用并整合了收益产品。
And you see this push from these companies towards legitimizing and starting to offer some of these more traditional financial services like Aave with the recent launch of their app, integrating a Earn product.
同样地，随着这些更传统的金融科技公司开始审视它们能为现有用户群提供哪些加密货币服务，一种融合正在悄然发生，我们内部称之为‘超级应用之争’。
And then similarly, with these more traditional fintechs starting to take a look at what crypto offerings they can make to their existing user base, there's like a there's definitely like a commingling that's starting to happen, like a battle of the super apps, we call it internally.
而且，你知道，这场竞争对我们有利。
And, you know, the battle is good for us.
无论如何，我们都是你们想要用来发布金融产品的基础设施，所以我们都将乐见其成。
Either way, like, we're the infrastructure that you wanna be launching your financial products onto, so it's gonna be fun for all of us to see.
说到基础设施，我注意到你提到2025年将重新定义所谓‘生产就绪型基础设施’的含义，当传统假设开始失效时。
Well, speaking of infrastructure, I saw you say that 2025 reset expectations for what, quote, unquote, production ready infrastructure actually means when legacy assumptions start to falter.
你能为我们解释一下这具体意味着什么吗？
Can you walk us through what that means?
因为我觉得这与我们正在讨论的观点紧密相关。
Because I think it kind of ties to the very point that we're talking about.
是的。
Yeah.
我的意思是，在将企业接入链上方面，我们的经验比任何其他平台或信息提供商都更丰富。
I mean, we have more experience bringing enterprises on chain than any other stack or info provider.
我们已经窥见了这些公司在代码库、合规性、正常运行时间、安全性和延迟等方面所达到的尽职调查和KYC水平。
We've gotten a glimpse into the levels of diligence and KYC, whether it's across the code base or compliance, uptime, security, latency that these companies have.
这与我们以往的加密货币客户对我们的要求完全不同。
And it's just completely different from what our crypto customers demanded, of us previously.
而加密货币客户可能对一定程度的停机时间或不太理想的用户体验还能接受。
Whereas crypto customers might have been okay with a little bit more downtime or a less ideal UX for their customers.
然而，网络二公司所拥有的客户数量以及他们为客户设定的期望，完全是另一回事。
The quantity of customers and the expectations that web two companies have set for them, are just a completely different ballgame.
因此，许多加密公司可能从未听说过像SOC 2合规这样的术语，而这些术语却是企业在评估合作伙伴和集成方案时的日常用语。
And so there's a lot of terms that crypto companies may not even have heard of like SOC two compliance that are part of the day to day vocabulary for enterprises as they evaluate what partners and integrations to rely on.
你认为，这是链上系统胜出的地方，还是说，相比传统资本和传统系统，这是它们处于劣势的地方？
Is that where you think, like, on chain systems win, or do you think that that's where they lose compared to, like, more traditional capital and, like, traditional systems?
我认为，链上系统主要是从第一性原理出发，构建了资金应该如何流动、资金自然流动方式的体系。
I think that on chain systems have been built mostly from first principles about how money should move or how how it's natural for money to move.
正因为如此，链上系统将会胜出。
And I think because of that, on chain systems will win.
现在，无论这些监管是否应该存在，企业今天都必须遵守许多规则。
Now, there are also whether those regulations should exist or not, there are many rules that enterprises have to abide by today.
因此，那些从DeFi端、链上端起步的项目，是从第一性原理出发构建用户体验的。
And so where projects that start in the on the DeFi end of the spectrum, on the on chain end of the spectrum, have built this UX from first principles.
它们在跟上合法化和遵守这些新监管要求方面可能会有些吃力。
They might struggle a little bit to keep up with legitimizing and following these new regulatory requirements.
而大型公司虽然可能不够灵活，但它们对当前的监管要求无疑更加敏感，并能帮助制定下一步的监管方向。
And where the larger companies might be a little bit less agile, they're definitely a lot more in tune to what the regulation is today and can help write the next step of that.
因此，这个光谱的两端各有优势：加密公司可能对应该推出哪些金融产品有更直观的理解。
And so there's different advantages on each side of the spectrum, where crypto companies may have, a much more intuitive understanding of what kinds of financial products should be launched.
而传统金融公司则对如何应对五千万日活跃用户有更直观的理解。
The, TradFi companies have a much more intuitive understanding of what it's really like to deal with 50,000,000 daily active users.
是的。
Yeah.
而且这其中有很多内容值得探讨，尤其是当预期是完全不间断运行、不能有任何闪失，而实现这一点涉及大量复杂的环节时。
And it's there's a lot to go on there, especially when the expectation is full uptime, no faltering, and there's a lot of moving parts that go into that.
我觉得我们看到的一个论点是，这些大型公司——来自传统金融、非加密和区块链领域的人——人们一直在问：为什么他们不自己做呢？
It feels like one of the arguments that we've seen is that these larger companies, the people that are coming from TradFi and and outside the world of crypto and blockchain, is people have posed the question, why don't they do this themselves?
或者他们会自己做吗？
Or will they do this themselves?
到目前为止，我们看到的结果似乎参差不齐，确实有一些人尝试过自己做，但还没有一个明确的答案。
And it seems like we've seen pretty mixed results so far where there have been some people to do some things by themselves, but there's been no, like, clear answer to that.
我认为，如果你看看这些资产管理公司和银行做了什么，有些做了合作，有些开发了自己的产品，有些则独立行动，但大部分都基于以太坊，而不是创建自己的链。
I think if you look at what a lot of these asset managers and banks have done, some of them have done partnerships, some of them have built their own products, Some of them have done their own things, but it's largely on Ethereum instead of creating their own chain.
对吧？
Right?
所以我们看到一些准模型，他们说：好吧，我们会基于以太坊，但可能会在以太坊上做自己的东西。
So we've seen kind of these quasi models where they are saying, well, we're gonna be on Ethereum, but we might do our own thing on Ethereum.
还有一些则直接外包给加密原生团队，说：嘿。
And then some just, you know, outsource to to crypto natives, and they say, hey.
你们就帮我们全权处理吧。
You know, just handle this all for us.
随着这种趋势越来越流行，你认为平衡点会朝着哪个方向发展或偏移？
Where do you think that the balance beam is going to, like, push towards or or drift towards as this becomes more popular?
你认为这些公司会倾向于外包还是自己来做？
Do you see these companies coming on chain outsourcing or doing it themselves?
对于企业来说，总有一些风险需要自己管理。
For enterprises, there is always some degree of risk that you have to manage yourselves.
因此，任何与公司对法律和政府负有责任的风险相关的事情，都必须由内部完成。
And so, anything relating to that risk that that company is accountable to the law to the government for has to be done in house.
而关于加密货币，难以理解的一点是，风险究竟在哪里产生。
Now the hard thing to understand about crypto is, like, where you actually produce risk.
假设你对加密货币一无所知。
Let's say you know nothing about crypto.
你只知道比特币和以太坊作为资产的一些基本信息。
You just know a little bit about Bitcoin and Ethereum as assets.
你就是一个金融科技公司的管理者。
You're this, like, you know, you're a manager at a fintech.
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你在规划团队希望实现的目标路线图。
You're looking at the road map for what you want your team to accomplish.
你觉得加密货币非常有趣。
You think crypto is super interesting.
你该从哪里开始呢？
Where do you even begin?
你知道，如果你问五个不同的区块链工程师来定义一条链，你会得到五个不同的答案。
You know, like, if you ask five different blockchain engineers to define a chain, you get five different answers.
我问了我的联合创始人来定义这个，他们每个人都给出了不同的答案。
I I I asked my cofounders to define this, and they all came with different answers.
你可以把它称为数据库。
You can call it a database.
你可以把它称为链表。
You can call it a linked list.
你可以把它称为带有证明系统的桥梁。
You can call it a bridge with a proof system.
描述它的方法太多了，行业并不是故意制造混淆。
There's so many different ways to describe it, and it's not an intentional malice from the industry to confuse.
这只是因为协议层的细节太过复杂，而为新手提供易懂教育的抽象概念还远远不够。
It's simply that there's so much nuance at the protocol level, and not enough abstractions that have been built up for easy education to newcomers.
所以你得先理解什么是L1，什么是L2，什么才叫一条链，然后人们可能会向你推荐ZK，或者Aptos、Sui、Solana、Ethereum等各种不同的选择。
So you have to understand what's an l one, what's an l two, what is even a chain, and then and then people might be pitching you on ZK or on, like, you know, Aptos, Sui, Solana, Ethereum, all of these different options.
你该怎么判断谁是对的呢？
How do you even evaluate who's right?
你欣赏谁？该去哪找答案？该问谁？
Who do you like, where do you go and who do you ask?
如果你真的想深入加密领域，现在又有这么多不同的资产发行方。
And then if you do want to, you dive into crypto, now there's all these different asset issuers.
是的。
Yeah.
还有各种你需要遵守的监管规定。
All these different regulations that you have to comply with.
现在你得与交易所对接。
Now you have to integrate with an exchange.
一共有十几家。
There's a dozen of them.
它们对定价的理解方式各不相同。
They all have different ways to think about pricing.
就算你推出了稳定币——人们以为这是最简单的事——现在你也要和所有其他人竞争，他们也都推出了稳定币，还疯狂补贴以提供14%的年化收益率。
And then once you do, let's say, launch a stablecoin, which people think is the simplest thing to do, now you're competing with everybody and their mother who's also launched a stablecoin, and they're hemorrhaging incentives to get 14% APY.
如果你希望你的稳定币被采用，你也得参与这种竞争。
And you have to compete with that, too, if you want adoption of your stablecoin.
要考虑的事情实在太多了。
It's just so much to think about.
如果这条路走不通，那你还有什么其他选择？
And if that doesn't work out, then what do you like?
你会选择接入收益类产品吗？
Do you integrate with an earned product?
有太多不同的选择。
There's so many different options.
我们团队取得成功的地方，是在客户刚开始考虑他们的加密货币策略时就介入其中。
And where we have found success as a team is getting in there at the beginning innings of somebody considering what their crypto strategy should be.
你不需要去了解Shure的资产是什么，或者一条链是做什么的。
You don't have to go and understand what an asset at Shure does or what a chain does.
你必须明白，作为一家公司，你的战略方向是什么？
You have to, you know, understand what what are your moves as a company?
你希望如何扩展？
How do you want to expand?
你希望开始提供更多加密服务吗？
Do you want to start offering more crypto services?
你是想将加密货币市场引入你的平台吗？
Is it the crypto market that you want to onboard onto your platform?
你是想为现有用户提供更多收益机会吗？
Is it more yield opportunities for your existing users?
一旦企业确定了其业务战略，我们就会成为协助他们实现加密原生战略落地的合作伙伴。
Once enterprises have their business strategy down, we are their partners for guiding them through the crypto native implementation of that strategy.
是的。
Yeah.
我觉得现在是时候抛出这个流行词了。
And I, you know, I would say it's time to throw the buzzword around.
你知道，所有听众都会喜欢这个。
You know, all the listeners are gonna love this.
每次我们能谈到 BASE 和 BASE 生态系统时，他们都特别兴奋。
They love every time we get to talk about BASE and the BASE ecosystem.
但也许这和你刚才提到的企业端有些不同。
But, you know, it's a little bit maybe different from the enterprise side that you were just talking about.
不过，BASE 使用了你们的技术，而且过去一两年里他们取得的爆炸性增长，你不可能忽视这一点。
But, I mean, BASE uses your tech, and I don't think you can miss that with the with the explosive growth that they've seen over the last year or two.
但你能给我们简单介绍一下吗？
But can you just walk us through that?
因为人们听到后会说：什么？
Because people are gonna hear that and go, what?
我以为Base是自己的二层网络。
I thought Base was its own layer two.
你什么意思，作为二层网络的Base竟然使用了Optimism的二层网络，还用了他们的技术？
What do you mean that base the layer two uses optimism the layer two and that they use their tech?
这到底是什么意思？他们从中获得了什么好处？
Like, what does that mean, and how do they benefit from it?
完全正确。
Totally.
Base区块链使用的所有代码都是由我们编写的，并得到了卓越的Coinbase工程团队的大力支持。
So all of the code that the base blockchain uses is written by us with great input from the phenomenal Coinbase engineering team.
他们对扩展性的推动超过了任何其他应用。
They've been really pushing the limits of scaling more so than any other application.
因此，与他们合作非常令人兴奋，因为他们为我们的发展路线图带来了极大的清晰度，让我们明确应该在哪些方面集中精力以实现这种吞吐量。
And so they have been a really exciting customer to partner with because they have added enormous clarity to our roadmap and where we should actually focus for that level of throughput.
Base 就是这个理念的完美例子。
Base is the perfect example of this.
他们已经真正写出了这份操作手册。
They've really written the playbook here.
他们很清楚自己想要什么样的商业策略。
They knew what they wanted their business strategy to be.
他们对想推出的加密产品以及目标用户群体已经有了明确的想法。
They had an idea of the crypto products that they wanted to launch, the kinds of users that they wanted to target.
但他们被自己想用来上线这些链上产品的基础设施的可扩展性所限制。
And they were just bottlenecked by the scalability of the infrastructure that they wanted to launch these on chain products onto.
所以，你不能以为只要推出一个稳定币，就会突然成功。
And so it's, you know, it's not the case that if you launch a stablecoin, you will suddenly become successful.
你也不能以为只要推出一条区块链，就会突然成功。
It's not the case that if you launch a blockchain, you will suddenly become successful.
你必须要有清晰的商业策略，而所有这些辅助性的东西，都只是实现商业策略的工具。
You need to have a business strategy, and all of these, auxiliary things are simply tools to go out and implement the business strategy.
是的
Yeah.
Base 取得了巨大的成功。
Base has been a phenomenal success.
那里的团队非常出色。
Really impressive team there.
是的
Yeah.
确实如此，看到加密生态系统彼此支持真不错。
It has been, and it's cool to see the crypto ecosystem support each other.
对吧？
Right?
他们在建设，在努力，而且是协作的。
And they're building, they're working, and it's collaborative.
这并不是一个充满敌意的环境，大家并不一定为了市场份额而互相争斗、试图消灭对方。
And it's not this this hostile environment where everyone's at each other's throats necessarily for market share, and they're trying to eliminate each other.
但在这里，情况通常并不是这样的。
And it's just not really the way that it works for the most part over here.
但另一个重要的领域，稍微换个话题，我们得谈谈，因为就像Base一样流行，稳定币也出现了巨大的增长。
But one of the other, you know, big areas, again, shifting gears a little bit here, we have to talk about it because just as as popular as base has become, stablecoins as well, huge, huge increase.
事实上，对于听众来说，你们可能刚看过这一期节目。
In fact, we just had for the listeners out there, you probably just saw this episode.
但我们刚刚邀请了Tether的一位核心人物做客，和他聊了聊最近发生的一切。
But we just had one of the lead guys from Tether on, and we were talking to him about just everything that was was going on.
他是前首席执行官，也是联合创始人之一。
He's one of the former former CEO, former cofounder.
我们和他讨论了稳定币行业以及近年来所经历的历史性增长。
And we just talked to him about the stablecoin industry and the historic rise that it's seen in recent years.
但稳定币已经将挑战从速度和费用转向了更可靠的持续性、响应能力等方面。
But stablecoins have kinda shifted the challenge from speed and fees to more reliability and continuity and and response and and all these things.
你在稳定币领域观察到了什么？
What have you seen on the stablecoin front?
我只是很好奇，想听听你的看法。
Like, I'm just, yeah, curious to get your input on it all.
是的。
Yeah.
我的意思是，稳定币、存款代币和稳定资产的推出确实出现了爆炸式增长。
I mean, there's definitely been an explosion in the launch of stablecoins and deposit tokens and stable assets.
比如算法稳定币。
So like algorithmically stable tokens.
我觉得这很有趣。
You know, I think think it's interesting.
目前，不同区块链之间存在着流动性孤岛。
Right now, you have these silos of liquidity that happen from one chain to another.
像Across和LayerZero这样的解决方案有助于降低将流动性从一个区块链转移到另一个区块链的延迟。
And there are solutions like across and layer zero that help with the latency of bringing liquidity from one state space, like one blockchain to another blockchain.
而且
And
你构建的工具越多，越能降低跨链转移资本的延迟、风险和成本，就越能看到交易活动和交易规模的激增。
the more tools you build to reduce the latency, reduce the risk of moving capital, reduce the cost of capital between chains, the more of a surge you see in things like trading activity, the size of trades that can be done.
因此，OP Stack 的一个美妙之处在于，所有 OP Stack 链都共享一套信息传输标准。
And so one one of the beautiful things about the OP stack is that, all OP stack chains share a set of standards for the transmission of information.
因此，美元在两条 OP Stack 链之间转移，比在任意两条其他区块链之间转移要顺畅得多，因为每条区块链的架构和风险特征都大不相同。
And so a dollar between two OP stack chains moves much more seamlessly than it would between any two other blockchains, because each blockchain has such a different architecture and such a different risk profile.
所以，这就是你所看到的那种协作的一部分。
So this is part of the kind of collaboration that you see.
你可能会想，Uniswap、Huge Exchange、Base、Huge Exchange，它们彼此之间是竞争对手吗？
You think, oh, Uniswap, Huge Exchange, Base, Huge Exchange.
其实并不是。
Are they at each other's throats?
并不是。
Not really.
Uniswap 正在以一种非常不同的方式使用区块链 Unichain。
Uniswap is using the blockchain, Unichain, in a very different way.
去年，他们对我们提出了关于延迟的严格要求，而Base则主要推动我们提升吞吐量。
They really pushed us on latency last year, whereas, Base was really pushing us on throughput last year.
因此，我们为Uniswap开发了一项延迟优化功能，并与Flashbots合作将其推广到整个区块链网络。
And so we developed a latency feature for Uniswap and rolled it out to the rest of the blockchain in partnership with Flashbots.
对于Base，我们持续提升了链的吞吐量和Gas吞吐能力，所有使用OP栈的链也因此受益。
And with Base, we, continuously, increased the throughput, the gas throughput of the chain, and all chains utilizing the OP stack also benefited from that.
这包括World、Sonium，以及Kraken的链Inc。
So that includes world, that includes Sonium, that includes Inc, which is Kraken's chain.
是的。
Yeah.
所以总结一下，你认为稳定币是否已经或能够实现外界的高期望？
So to put a nod on this, do you think that stablecoins are living up or can live up to the hype?
因为现在关于稳定币的增长、应用场景等话题受到了大量关注。
Because there is lots of attention about it growing and and use cases and all these things.
我的意思是，我们是否已经充分准备好应对如此大规模的扩展？或者你认为还需要做更多工作？
I mean, are we even properly kind of prepared to scale in to that extent quite yet, or do you think maybe a little bit more needs to be done?
我知道我们还要讨论《清晰法案》、市场结构和《天才法案》等其他法案，但简短说说你的看法。
I know we're also we'll talk about the Clarity Act and Market Structure and Genius Act and all these other ones, but real quick, your thoughts.
是的。
Yeah.
我的意思是，这个问题比较复杂，因为
I mean, I think this one is a nuanced one because
这可不是个简单的问题。
It's not an easy question.
稳定币让我想起了NFT热潮。
Stablecoins, it reminds me of, like, the NFT boom.
人们总会问，你觉得NFT会怎样发展？
And people would ask, well, what do you think is gonna happen with NFTs?
但现实是，一家公司对NFT的实现方式与另一家公司截然不同。
And the reality was that one company's implementation of an NFT was so different from another company's implementation of an NFT.
你可以把身份看作一种NFT，比如身份证或护照。
You can think of an identity as an NFT, an ID card, or a passport.
而你使用这种方式，与使用一件也被视为NFT的艺术品的方式截然不同。
Now the way that you would utilize that is so different from the way that you would utilize a piece of artwork, which is also considered an NFT.
因此，对于被视为稳定资产的资产来说，这只是一个非常宽泛的通用工具。
And so for assets that are considered stable assets, again, there's it's it's just a broad general tool.
这个工具有太多不同的使用方式。
There's so many different ways that that tool can be utilized.
所以我会从三个主要的使用类别来思考它。
And so I think of it across kind of, like, three categories of utilization.
在第一个使用类别中，它是一种用于交易的稳定资产。
In the first category of utilization, it's a stable asset to trade against.
对于作为交易标的的稳定资产，流动性、交易规模，以及将原本孤立的资本池整合为一个统一资本池的能力，能够带来更好的定价、更低的延迟和更高的交易效率。
And so for stable assets to trade against, liquidity, trade size, the ability to unify previously siloed pools of capital into one pool of capital gives you better pricing, latency, trading efficiency.
这些正是我们在2026年重点聚焦并推向OP堆栈的功能。
These are the features that we're really focused on in 2026 and bringing to the OP stack.
因此，如果你在OP堆栈上发行你的稳定币，不仅希望它能接入Uniswap的市场，还希望它能接入OP主网或Base的市场，我们会为你实现这一过程极其简单和快速。
So if you launch your stablecoin on the OP stack and you not only want it to access markets on Uniswap, but you also want it to access markets on OP Mainnet or Base, we make that super simple and, super fast for you.
因此，我们今年的目标之一是将链间桥接延迟从三十秒降低到四秒，这大大提升了跨链转移资本的效率。
So one of our goals this year is to bring that thirty second bridging latency between chains to four seconds, which, again, greatly reduces greatly increases the efficiency of, moving capital across chains.
所以这属于其中一类。
So it's like one of the categories.
第二类是存款代币，代表你在某个应用中存入资本的代币。
A second category is like deposit tokens, tokens that are representative of a deposit of capital you've made in an application.
在不同协议中存入资金可能会为你带来不同的收益。
Different depositing in different protocols might earn you, you know, different amounts of yields.
它们可能具有不同的特性，并且根据你存入的实体不同，可能受到不同的监管限制。
They might come with different properties, might be subject to different regulatory restrictions depending on the entity that you're depositing into.
第三类是算法稳定币。
And the third is algorithmic stables.
因此，你需要承担一点风险，即这种稳定资产并非完全由某种实物资产一对一抵押支持。
And so you take on a little bit of the risk of this stable asset not being one to one backed up by some, you know, physical asset.
相反，你将面临更大的风险，但也可能获得更高的收益，这正是去中心化金融中有趣、可能危险却又美妙的一部分。
And in instead, you get exposed to greater risk, but also greater yield, which is part of the, I don't know, fun, maybe dangerous, beautiful part of DeFi.
这三大类之间会发生什么？
What happens across all these three buckets?
我其实不太清楚。
I don't really know.
但我知道，这三大类都需要延迟、吞吐量和安全性。
But I do know that all three buckets require latency, throughput, and security.
而这正是我们的路线图。
And that that's our that's our road map.
我觉得说得非常好。
I think I think it's very well said.
而且，我觉得我们经常看到的一个最终问题是，我们这里有一个庞大的社区。
And, you know, I think one of the final questions that that we've seen circulating around we got a big community here.
感谢Crip Nation，也感谢所有参与Momentum Moneymakers以及其他幕后团队和社区成员的人。
Shout out to Crip Nation, and shout out to everyone else who's a part of Momentum Moneymakers and all the other guys over here that are that are behind the scenes and all the community members.
但我们经常看到的一个大问题是：嘿，各位。
But one of the big ones that we see floating around is like, hey, guys.
那整个加密货币市场现在情况如何？
What's going on with, like, just the entire state of the crypto market?
我们这里先聚焦在以太坊的L1和L2层面。
And we'll narrow it down here to the l one and l two side of Ethereum.
但到底发生了什么？
But what's going on?
因为我们反复看到的是，基本面正在出现大量积极增长。
Because the reoccurring theme that we see is there's a lot of positive fundamental growth.
零售用户和机构的关注都在上升，开发者也很多，有很多事情亟待完成，这方面一点也不缺。
There's positive retail attention and institutional attention, and there's builders, and there's there's a lot that is desired to be done, and there's no shortage of that.
但人们现在看加密市场时，就会觉得：咦？
But then people kinda look at the crypto market right now, and they're like, hey.
到底怎么回事？
You know, what's going on?
那你觉得以太坊当前的状态究竟如何？
So what would you say is is going on with the current state of Ethereum?
因为，再说一遍，我认为即使从表面上看，你也无法那样说。
Because, again, I would say at the, not even at the surface level, you can't even say it like that.
我认为，在深层幕后和表面上，情况看起来不错，但可能就是感觉不对劲，感觉情绪——或者甚至不是情绪，而是士气——有点低落。
I would say deep behind the scenes and at the surface level, it looks good, but maybe it just doesn't feel right, and it feels like sentiment is maybe a little bit or not even sentiment, but maybe morale is a little bit low.
所以我认为，这就是为什么会出现这两种几乎对立的信号：一方面，企业界和主流社会首次对加密货币产生真实兴趣；另一方面，却迎来了加密货币历史上最糟糕的市场之一。
And so I think that's why you have these two almost, like, opposing signals where you have real enterprise interest, real mainstream interest looking at crypto for the first time, yet you also have one of the worst markets in crypto history.
如果你回顾过去的加密货币代币，你会发现，对于99.99%的加密代币来说，根本无法用传统的股票估值模型来评估它们的价值。
And if you looked at crypto tokens before, it didn't it didn't seem like for, you know, the 99.99 percent of crypto tokens that could that you could use, like, the traditional equities valuation model to value crypto tokens.
我知道它们并不相同，但如果我们试图寻找一些类比，来理解市场正在发生什么，这似乎是一个相似的类比。
And I know they're not the same, but if we're finding parallels to try to attempt to make sense of what's happening to the market, that seems to be a parallel.
天啊，我不该说这个的，但我感觉我们绝对不能发布这段内容，等等。
And Man, I I don't think I should be saying this, but I feel like I feel like we definitely can't publish this, but wait.
等等
Hold
稍等。
on.
别给自己惹麻烦。
Don't get yourself in trouble.
可以
Can
我们跳过这一段吗？
we skip this one?
我觉得
I think
是的。
Yes.
这不太好。
It's not good.
我觉得我不该录这个。
I don't think I should be recording this either.
我们完全可以。
We can a 100%.
简而言之，我认为现在真的有人在关注加密货币。
In short, I think real eyeballs are looking at crypto now.
是的。
Yeah.
那些曾经完全基于炒作和叙事的事物，现在也正越来越接近现实。
And things that were based on pure hype and narrative are are coming a lot closer to reality now also.
因此，2026年的核心主题将是每个人的收入。
And so, like, you know, the meta in 2026 is revenue for everybody.
所有加密协议现在都需要谈论收入，并且要求比以往更加严格。
All crypto protocols will need to be talking about revenue with stricter requirements than they have previously.
许多加密项目的收入报告并没有像Coinbase那样进行同等程度的严谨审查。
A lot of revenue reporting for crypto projects hasn't been done with the same level of scrutiny that a Coinbase might do their revenue reporting.
这些因素都是人们在评估加密市场时会考虑的。
And these are all factors that people take into consideration when evaluating the crypto market.
嗯。
Mhmm.
是的。
Yeah.
不。
No.
我觉得这很有道理。
I think that makes sense.
而且还有很多其他事情正在幕后发生，很多事情都在进行中。
And there's so many other things that are happening behind the scenes, and there's a lot going on.
人们正在关注的大事是，嘿。
And the big thing that people are looking toward saying, hey.
你知道，这可能是让我们走出困境的因素之一，因为我们经历了那场大规模的清算事件。
You know, this could be one of the things that get us out of this because we had that large liquidation event.
不只是大规模。
Not just large.
这是加密货币市场有史以来最大的清算事件。
The largest liquidation event that the crypto market has ever seen.
我们在十月看到了这一幕。
And we saw that happen in October.
我们一直在感受由此产生的各种副作用和持续的连锁影响。
We've continued to feel some of the side effects and lingering ripple effects that have come out of that.
出现了恐惧。
There's been fear.
哦，Clarity法案没有像预期那样尽快通过，人们对此和那方面都感到担忧。
Oh, well, the Clarity Act isn't getting passed as soon as it could have been passed, and there's fears about this and that.
而且市场上充斥着恐慌情绪。
And there's just FUD floating around.
对吧？
Right?
FUD代表恐惧、不确定性和怀疑，现在到处都是这种情绪。
FUD stands for fear, uncertainty, and doubt, and there's just that floating around.
但目前人们关注的一个重要领域是，他们说：嘿。
But one of the big areas that people are looking towards right here, they're saying, hey.
我认为，清晰法案和市场结构法案可能会被合并成一项法案，而这可能是让我们走出这种局面的关键之一。
I think that maybe the Clarity Act and the market structure bill can be two of the things that look like they're gonna get combined into a single thing, but it it looks like that could be one of the things that could bring us out of that.
我刚刚听了美国的AI和加密货币事务负责人大卫·萨克斯谈论这件事。
And I was just listening to David Sachs, who is the AI and crypto czar of The United States talking about this.
他说，现在有大量资金和众多公司正坐在一旁，等待这些法案通过。
And he says there is so much money, and there are so many companies that are sitting on the sidelines waiting for this stuff to get passed.
这与我们在播客中经常听到的说法一致，许多不同的加密团体都在说：嘿。
And that lines up with what we've heard a lot on the podcast is a lot of these different crypto groups were saying, hey.
很长一段时间以来，我们一直不敢添加那个代币，或者添加其他代币。
You know, for the longest time, we were scared to add that token or, you know, add that other token.
有时候我们添加了某些东西，但又不得不移除它。
Sometimes we'd add something and have to remove it.
有时候只是功能、更新或升级，我们添加了某些内容，随后又不得不撤回，或者陷入法律麻烦。
Sometimes it was just features and updates and upgrades, and we would add something and then have to remove that, or we'd get in legal trouble.
因此，有非常多不同的团体都在说：嘿。
And so there's so many different groups that are just saying, hey.
我们想等到这些事情被明确后再行动，这就是《清晰法案》名称的由来，或者说是市场结构法案的由来。
We wanna sit on the sidelines until this stuff gets clarified, hence the name of the Clarity Act, or their structure, hence the the name of the market structure bill.
一旦我们得到明确，就能做很多事情。
And once we get that, there's so much that can be done.
可以加入很多新内容，这确实会催生一波新的创新。
There's so much that can be added into, and that really does create a new wave of innovation.
而创新会扩大潜在的市场份额。
And with innovation expands potential market share.
所以我认为我们目前就处在这个阶段，至少从我外部的视角和观点来看，感觉就是这样。
And so that's where I think we're sitting here, and that's what it feels like, at least from my kind of outside perspective and opinion on the matter.
这正是以太坊目前所处的状态。
That's where it feels like Ethereum is at right now.
根据你的经验，你们一直在与各种不同的团体和人士合作，把人们带入链上，似乎你们也看到了同样的趋势。
And from your experience, there's there's again, you guys are working with all sorts of different groups and and people, and you're bringing people on chain, and it seems like you're seeing that as well.
你们是否预期，随着这两项法案的通过，情况会有所加速？
Are you guys anticipating that this stuff could pick up with those two different, you know, bills or acts getting passed?
你有在考虑这个问题吗？
Is that something that you are thinking about?
我真的非常希望如此。
I really desperately hope hope so.
我的意思是，每天都在发生巨大变化，法案不断被撰写和修改，我基本上通过每天上班时看到首席法务官的态度来判断事情的走向。我认为美国在这里拥有一个极其难得的机会。
I I mean, so much changes day to day, And the bill gets written and rewritten, and I basically look at the attitude of my GC when I come into the office to kind of get a sense for how things But are I think The United States has a really incredible opportunity here.
加密创新正发生在这里。
This is where crypto innovation is happening.
加密和金融系统领域最聪明的思想家都在美国。
The brightest thinkers in crypto and in financial systems are in The United States.
你知道，全世界都在进行技术竞争，比如人工智能、汽车制造、芯片制造等领域。
You know, everywhere around the world, you know, technology wars on, like, AI or, like, car manufacturing, chip manufacturing are are being played.
但真正独一无二的是，美国正在构建金融系统。
But really, The United States is uniquely where engineering financial systems is happening.
这里拥有迄今为止最顶尖的人才和最前沿的思维。
This is by far the best talent pool and the most advanced thinking.
我认为美国在这里有机会通过为所有创新者提供明确的监管来抓住这一机遇。
And I think The US has an opportunity here to capitalize on by providing really clear regulation to all the innovators here.
对我们而言，我认为我们通过首先考虑消费者保护来应对这种不确定性。
And for us, I mean, I think we, we try to navigate the ambiguity by thinking first through, consumer protection.
如果你看看现有的金融监管，很多规定都是以保护消费者为初衷制定的。
If you look at existing financial regulation, a lot of it is written with the intention of protecting consumers.
因此，我们尝试从基本原理出发，思考如何在那些行为准则不够明确的领域中做出判断。
And so we try to think through first principles around that in order to navigate some of the areas where it's not as clear cut how we should be behaving.
事情太多了。
It's a lot going on.
我甚至不想去理解所有潜在的法律问题，以及去研究所有细节和它们可能意味着什么。
I don't even try to understand all of the potential legal side and the the looking into all the fine print and what it could all mean.
听我说。
Listen.
这正是我们最初邀请嘉宾和像您这样的专家来讨论这些问题的原因。
That's why we bring the guests on in the first place and experts like yourself to talk about this stuff.
你知道，我们假设一切顺利。
You know, let's assume things go well.
我们假设，这些东西开始被通过，一切都能顺利配合。
Let's assume, you know, this stuff starts to get passed and everything starts playing together.
你心目中乐观的完美未来是什么样子？
What does your perfect future for optimism look like?
你心目中绝对完美的未来图景，一切按计划进行。
Your absolute perfect picture, perfect future, and things go according to plan.
那么，这种乐观的愿景是什么样的？你在连接这一切中扮演什么角色？
Like, what does that look like for optimism, and what role do you play in kind of connecting all this?
是的。
Yeah.
我的团队讨厌这个问题，因为每年我都会设定目标，然后说：这就是我们的未来。
My team hates this question because every year I'll set the goal and I'll be like, this is our future.
而这就是我能预见的最远的未来，因为，你知道，我们还没走到那一步。
And that's as far as into the future as I can see because, you know, we haven't gone there yet.
然后我们会达成这个目标，接着就会有新的完美未来。
Then we'll hit that goal and then there will be a new perfect future.
是的。
Yeah.
你知道吗，如果在我刚开始做这件事时你问我，我根本不敢想象今天我们能处理占所有加密货币交易14%的量。
You know, if you'd asked me when I started this, it would be a dream that we're doing 14% of all crypto transactions today.
嗯。
Mhmm.
现在我觉得，天啊。
And now I'm like, oh, man.
加密货币市场本身还不够大，我们本应该处理占所有加密货币交易80%的量。
Like, the crypto market itself is not big enough, and we should be doing 80% of all crypto transactions.
为什么不呢？
Why not?
是的。
Yeah.
对我们来说，完美的未来是金融走上链上，因为我们提供的用户体验远优于传统金融系统。
I think for us, the perfect future is one where finance is coming on chain because we're providing a genuinely better user experience than what the traditional financial system has to offer.
这些年来我们深入思考的各种复杂研究，最终实现了释放流动性、缩短交易时间、可能降低全球汇款成本，让人们更容易借贷、预测和管理自己的财务。
That all these weird, nuanced research things that we've been thinking through over the years are resulting in actually freeing liquidity out of its silos and lowering the transaction times, maybe lowering remittances globally, making it easier for people to borrow, lend, predict, and manage their own finances.
那个梦想，就是让你的口袋里装着一个瑞士银行。
That whole dream of, you know, having your own Swiss bank in your pocket.
银行不仅仅是安全地保管你的资金。
Banks don't just securely custody your funds.
它们还围绕这些资金提供多种服务。
They offer you a variety of services around those funds.
而这正是去中心化金融（DeFi）真正想实现的目标。
And that's really what DeFi is trying to do.
而乐观主义精神正是为了加速并规模化这种DeFi创新。
And optimism is here to make it so that that DeFi innovation happens faster and at scale.
这就是我的梦想。
So that's my dream.
我认为要达到那个目标还需要一点时间，但那将会非常酷。
I think it'll take us a little bit of time to get there, but it'd be really cool.
那么在路线图上，今年有没有什么重大更新、合作或可以透露的前瞻信息？
Well, on the roadmap, is there any big updates or partnerships or any sneak peeks that you can give us of the roadmap for this year?
关于路线图，我觉得对你们的听众来说可能有点枯燥。
For the roadmap, I mean, it will probably be pretty boring to your listeners.
就是持续扩展扩展方案并消除瓶颈。
It is just continuously scaling the scaling solution and removing bottlenecks.
对我们来说，瓶颈不仅仅是交易手续费的吞吐量。
And to us, bottlenecks aren't just gas throughput.
瓶颈还包括资本流动的障碍。
Bottlenecks are also bottlenecks for moving capital.
因此，能够更快地在链之间进行更大规模的交易、更迅速地完成更多交易和跨链兑换。
So being able to do larger transaction sizes faster between chains, do more trades more quickly, more swaps across all chains.
这就是全部了。
That's really it.
为了实现这一点，我们需要做几十件听起来很枯燥的事情，比如区块访问列表。
And there's, you know, dozens of different boring sounding things that we have to do to achieve that, like block access lists.
但别以为你的听众需要了解这些细节。
But don't think your audience needs an explanation of that.
我不觉得他们需要吧？
I don't Do they?
好了，各位。
Alright, everybody.
Tivo回来继续了。
Tivo here punching back in.
先来个加密货币入门科普。
A crypto one zero one first.
literally，Brendan断电了。
Literally, Brendan has lost power.
这里佛罗里达正在打雷下雨。
There's a thunderstorm happening down here in Florida.
有闪电击中了布兰登的家。
Some lightning struck around Brendan's house.
他说他看到家里的电源、网络和电脑全都突然断了。
He said he saw a big flash in his power, Internet, computer, everything went out.
所以Tivo现在重新上线，和Jing一起。
So Tivo here jumping back in with Jing.
我们非常感谢她能来参加。
We really appreciate her coming on.
我们已经进行了四十五分钟。
We're forty five minutes in.
我们本来就要结束了。
We were literally about to wrap up anyway.
所以我要接过来，把剩下的部分讲完。
So I'm gonna, jump in here and take it the rest of way.
Jink，非常感谢你来参加。
Jink, thank you so much for coming on.
这是一次很棒的对话。
It was a great conversation.
关于乐观主义，你还有什么想对我们的听众说的吗？
Is there anything else that you want to leave our listeners with around optimism?
给我们一个最后的思考，然后告诉我们听众在哪里可以找到你在 X 平台上的账号，或者你希望推广的其他网站。
You know, give us a final thought, and then tell our audience where, they can find you on x and optimism on x or any other websites that you wanna plug.
是的。
Yeah.
Jobs.optimism.io 是一个很棒的网站。
Jobs.optimism.io is a great website.
你可以在 X 平台上关注我，用户名是 jingle jam o p。
You can find me on x at jingle jam o p.
我想最后想说的是，在过去很多年里，我们一直支持着加密领域增长最快、资源消耗最多的应用。
And the final thought here, I guess, is that for the last many years, we have supported the fastest growing and the most resource intensive applications in crypto.
如今，我们的合作伙伴每投入一美元在链上所产生的利润，是其他技术栈上最成功链的三倍。
And today, our partners generate up to three times more profit per dollar that they bring on chain, in comparison to the most successful chains on other stacks.
这不仅仅是因为我们在构建基础设施。
And that isn't just because we're building infrastructure.
而是因为我们是战略合作伙伴，真正帮助您消除业务增长的具体障碍。
It's because we are strategic partners that really help you remove the blockers to growing your business specifically.
所以，无论您是一个正在成长的应用程序，并希望加速成为超级应用的进程，都来和我们聊聊吧。
So whether you are a growing application and you wanna fast track your journey to becoming a super app, come talk to us.
如果您有托管的潜在资产，并希望最大化这些资产在链上的生产力，也来和我们聊聊吧。
If you've got latent assets under custody and you wanna maximize the productivity of those assets, on chain, come talk to us.
如果您是一家咨询公司、银行或金融科技公司，希望更好地了解如何制定您的加密货币战略，也来和我们聊聊吧。
If you're at a consulting firm or a bank or a fintech, and you wanna better understand how to put together your crypto strategy, also come talk to us.
别担心什么是L1或L2，或者别的什么术语。
Don't worry about what an l one or an l two is or this or that.
我们曾与各类集成商在堆栈的每一层都合作过，我们会与您合作制定您的战略，并为您引荐合适的团队。
We've worked at literally every single layer of the stack with every kind of integrator, and we will partner with you to map out your strategy, and we can refer you to the right teams.
感谢您的收听。
So thank you for listening.
是的
Yeah.
当然
For sure.
完美地为这一切画上了句号。
Perfect way to tie a bow on it.
了解更多关于Jing刚才提到的所有内容，请访问Optimism。
Check out Optimism for everything that Jing just mentioned.
非常感谢您今天加入我们。
Thank you so much for joining us today.
今天与你们的对话非常精彩，让我们深入了解了你们如何看待自身，以及对加密货币未来、我们所处的位置以及如何审视这些项目的思考。
It was really was a fascinating conversation of how you guys kind of view yourselves and and kind of going into the future of crypto of where we are and how do we look at these projects.
再次强调，无论是Layer 1还是Layer 2，你们带来了什么价值？
Again, whether it's a layer one or layer two, what are you bringing of value?
你们在这里清晰地阐述了自己的立场，并为我们的社区贡献了一段精彩的内容。
And you certainly laid out your case here and put a a great piece of content out for our community.
非常感谢你们的参与。
Thank you so much for joining us.
感谢大家收听，我们很快会在下一期节目中再见。
Thank you everybody for listening, and we'll see you all on an episode very, very soon.
大家再见。
Goodbye, everybody.
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