第706期：革新以太坊：ETHGas与Gas费的未来

你之前提到过，gas费用大致分为三个档次。

You talked earlier about how there's kind of three gas fee tiers.

你可以把它放在后面、中间或前面，而现在又有了即时选项。

You can, you know, put it to the back, the middle, the front, and then now there's the instant option.

所以第一个问题，使用即时功能大概要多花多少钱？

So number one, you know, how much more does this cost to to kind of use the instant feature?

第二个问题是，你们在ETH Gas上构建和设计的产品，目标市场是谁？

And then number two, who is the target market here for what you all are are building and designing at ETH Gas?

是个人用户，还是机构用户，还是所有人都包括？

Is it retails, is institutional, is it everyone?

如果你能为我们详细说明一下这两点的话。

If you could walk us through both those.

当然可以。

For sure.

那么，贵多少呢？

So how much more?

这取决于具体情况。

This is, this depends.

成本可能比现在更低，因为我觉得我就不深入这个方向了。

So could cost less than it is right now because I guess that's a maybe I won't go down that path.

所以是的，成本可能会更低，因为有很多MEV交易、搜索者和狙击手通常会推高区块空间的价格，使其更加困难。

So yeah it could cost potentially less because there's a lot of MEV trading and searchers and snipers who typically would drive up the prices of block space making it more difficult.

因此，他们会在这个机制中消失，使每个人更加公平。

So they would kind of disappear in this equation and making it more fair for everyone.

所以存在一种情况，成本会更低。

So there's a world where it would be less.

然而，成本也会更高，但我并不知道具体会高多少。

However, it will be more and I don't know exactly how much more.

到2026年，以太坊将有两个超大规模的方面同时发挥作用。

So in 2026, we have kind of two hyperscaling aspects coming into effect for Ethereum.

一个是每个区块的区块空间数量。

So one is the amount of block space that we have per block.

到2025年，每个区块的Gas上限约为3000万，现在会增加。

It will increase from in 2025 we had about 30,000,000 gas per block.

今年我们目标是达到2亿或3亿。

And this year we're looking to get to 200 or 300.

这意味着我们有望在2026年，单个区块内处理的交易量增加十倍。

So that broadly just means we can get 10 times the amount of trades through within a single block, hopefully in 2026.

如果我们能将交易量提升十倍，Gas价格肯定会下降。

Now if we can get 10 times the amount of trades through, gas prices will absolutely drop.

但如果我们现在宣称以太坊实现了实时性，人们就会真正渴望实时体验。

But on our side, if we're now saying Ethereum is real time, then people are really going to want the real time experience.

突然间，你的容量增加了十倍，但实用性却提升了百倍。

So all of a sudden you have 10 times more capacity, but you have like a 100 times better usefulness.

那么这两者将如何相互抵消呢？

So how is that going to kind of offset each other?

无论如何，同时实现这两种扩展都是好事。

Either way, it's a good thing to have both of these scaling at the same time.

所以我不知道会走向哪里，但它们会与我们现在的情况有显著不同吗？

So I don't know where it's gonna go, but are they gonna change materially from where we are now?

我不这么认为。

I don't think so.

所以这将是我在探讨我们的Gas费用将如何变化时的第一个问题。

So that'll be my first question in terms of where our gas costs gonna go.

这说得通。

That makes sense.

这完全说得通。

That that makes total sense.

那么谈到目标市场，目标市场是谁？

And when it comes to target market here, who is the target market?

我们的目标市场就是以太坊上的每一个用户。

So our target market is literally every single user on Ethereum.

比如布兰登，你只是在向某人转账，或者在Uniswap、Avi或其他任何平台上操作。

So there is like Brendan, like you just kind of like transferring to someone or like on Uniswap or Avi or whatever it might be.

如果你需要这种即时体验，我希望它能为你和所有听众、所有观看此内容的人提供，让整个过程更快、更简单。

If you need that instant experience, I want it available for you and all your listeners, everyone watching this to just make it faster and simpler.

所以这是其中一部分。

So that's one part of it.

另一部分是，还有谁从中受益？

The other part is, well, who else benefits?

比如像Uniswap这样的平台，对吧？

And you have guys like Uniswap for example, right?

目前，Uniswap上的流动性提供者只是被动地从交易中赚取费用。

Where currently people who are LPs at Uniswap, they just kind of passively earn fees on trades.

交易者在每个十二区块周期内只能交易一次。

Traders can only trade once in that twelve block period.

但如果交易者现在能在十二秒内交易三次或五次，这些流动性提供者就能多赚两到三倍的钱。

But if traders can now trade three times or five times within a twelve second period, these LPs are going to make two to three times more money.

所以突然之间，Uniswap每年将多赚230亿美元，而这些钱会流向哪里呢？

So all of a sudden Uniswap is going to make $23,000,000,000 more a year and like where is that going to go?

你们让这些人赚了钱，这些收入可以用来支付访问费用。

You have them making this money, it can get paid to access that revenue.

他们可能会把这些钱支付给验证者。

They might pay it to the validators.

因此，以太坊的验证者将从中受益。

So the validators of Ethereum benefit.

是的，这确实影响了以太坊上的每一个用户。

Yeah, this really touches every single user in Ethereum.

所以目标市场就是以太坊上的用户。

So target market, people on Ethereum.

我认为这就是大家希望以太坊走向的方向。

I think that's the way that everyone hopes that Ethereum would go.

对吧？

Right?

你加入进来，说你知道，理想世界就是我们能实现任何人都能参与其中的状况。

You kind of join in and you're saying, you know, that is the perfect world is that we get to a place where anyone and everyone can do this.

我们有时会邀请嘉宾，他们带来一些非常棒的想法，既酷又富有创新性。

Sometimes we bring guests on, and they have these really awesome ideas, and they're really cool and innovative.

但这些想法往往更针对机构层面。

And then they're targeted more towards the institutional side.

我们有些人会联系我们，说：嘿。

We have people who reach out and say, hey.

像我或者你这样的普通人，有没有办法参与进来？

You know, is there any way for, you know, the average Joe like me or you to to get in on this?

有时候答案是否定的。

And then sometimes the answer is no.

有时候答案是，也许以后会有机会。

Sometimes the answer is maybe at a later date.

有时候答案是，如果你是合格投资者的话。

Sometimes the answer is, well, if you're an accredited investor.

但我认为，让每个人都有能力推动这种转变是有用的，因为我觉得，在机构入场之前，通常需要零售用户先参与进来——虽然我现在仔细想想，我可能有点错了。

But I think for anyone to have the ability to kind of flip this on is useful because I think before the institutional and maybe I'm a little bit wrong in this now that I think about it, but I would say before the institutional side comes in, it usually needs retail people there first.

对吧？

Right?

在供应真正建立之前，必须先有需求。

There needs to be the demand before the supply is actually built.

否则，你知道，他们为什么要承担这个风险呢？

Otherwise, you know, why would they kind of take the risk?

所以我觉得这样说很有道理：嘿，如果你想要使用这个，你可以。

And so I think it makes sense, you know, saying, hey, if you want to use this, you can.

如果你不想要，就不需要。

If you don't, you don't.

无论你是机构、小型、大型，还是小鱼或鲸鱼，都可以进来尝试和体验一下。

If you're an institution, if you're small, big, large, you know, if you're a minnow or a whale, you know, come in and have the ability to to try this and check this out.

因为谁知道呢？

Because who knows?

总会有人处于独特的情况下，会说：天啊。

You know, there's gonna be someone in a unique situation where they're gonna say, oh my gosh.

我赶时间，天哪。

I'm in a rush or, oh my goodness.

我需要现在就完成这件事。

I need this done right now.

会有一些人更看重时间而不是价格。

There's gonna be people who care more about time than price.

反之亦然。

There's gonna be the vice versa.

所以我认为让人们拥有这样的选择非常重要，因为再次强调，回到现实世界的例子，现实世界就是这样运作的。

And so I think letting people have the option to do this is so important because, again, going back to just, like, real world examples, that's the way the real world works.

对吧？

Right?

这是有竞争性的。

It's competitive.

有多种选择，人们可以自由选择。

There's options and people get to do this.

是的

Yeah.

如果人们想要有这样的选择，你说的是，嘿。

And if people want to have the option, you're saying, hey.

这里为你提供了这个选项。

Here it is available for you.

去吧，自己动手做吧。

Go ahead and and kinda do it yourself.

当然。

Absolutely.

那么，我们究竟需要多少次实时体验呢？

So there's, you know, like how often do we need a real time experience?

你知道的，不是一直都需要。

You know, not all the time.

对吧？

Right?

当然，交易公司会非常偏好实时体验。

Now, of course, the trading firms, they would very much prefer a real time experience.

因此他们会更频繁地使用这种功能，但推动这一做法的主要原因之一，是希望消除类似MEV和掠夺性行为。

So they will make avail of this a lot more often, but the driver, one of the main drivers behind this the desire to eliminate like MEV and like predatory players.

对吧？

Right?

因为正如我之前提到的，在十二秒的区块内，每个人都把自己的交易排在前面。

Because currently, as I was mentioning earlier, within the twelve second block, everybody puts their trades ahead.

然后就会出现一些拍卖机制，比如：‘我要抢先执行这些用户的交易。’

And then there are these auctions where it's like, hey, I'm going to front run these users.

你会抢先执行这些用户的交易，然后竞争谁能从普通用户试图成交的交易中提取最多价值。

You're going to front run those users and let's compete to see who can front run and extract the most value from the everyday people trying to land trades.

因此，通过实时排序交易和区块，这种行为在很大程度上就消失了。

So by sequencing trades, sequencing the block in real time, that disappears for the most part.

但这种掠夺性行为的93%到95%会直接消失，权益又回到了普通用户手中。

Know but like 9395% of this predatory behavior just disappears and it goes back to the everyday person.

所以，这可以说是其中一个非常好的副作用，我甚至都不想称之为意外副作用。

So that's one of the I wouldn't even call it unintended side effects, that's one of the great side effects of this.

但对，回到你的观点，现实中，我们到底有多频繁地需要实时功能呢？

But yeah, coming back to your point, in reality, how often do we need something real time?

并不是一直需要，但当我们确实需要时，我们就能拥有它。

Not all the time, but when when it when when we do want it, we we can have it.

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百分之百。

A 100%.

一听到这个，我马上想到，前几天我刚打过一辆优步，当时就有那种选项，比如你可以选择。

And immediately, my brain goes towards you know, I was just in an Uber the other day, and there's, like, options where you can, like, hey.

你可以加急你的优步或Lyft服务。

You can expedite your Uber or Lyft.

你需要多付一点费用。

You pay a little bit of an extra fee.

DoorDash或者外卖配送也是一样。

Same thing with, like, DoorDash or a food delivery.

你可以支付加急费，让餐品更快送到你手上。

You can do an expedited fee and get it to you faster.

我之前去取西装，他们说，嘿。

I was just getting a suit, they said, oh, hey.

我们得调整一些事情，方方面面都要弄一下。

We gotta tailor some things and this and that.

两周内就能准备好。

It'll be ready in two weeks.

你知道吗，如果我是那种人，天啊，不行。

You know, what if I'm someone who's like, oh, no.

我需要它。

I need it.

晚了也好。

Good to late.

我需要在几天内拿到它。

I need it in a couple of days.

他们说，哦，我们可以加急，加个加急费之类的。

They say, oh, well, we could do it in a rush, you know, a rush fee and this and that.

这确实是真的，你知道吗，你真的总是需要这个吗？

It's it's so true that it's like, you know, are you always going to need that?

不。

No.

但当你需要时，你就需要。

But when you do, you do.

而拥有这个选择是有道理的，因为我们已经在生活的许多其他方面看到了这种情况。

And to have the option there just makes sense because we already see it in so many of our other different aspects of life.

当然。

Absolutely.

我正想说，你也有这种确定性。

I was just gonna say, you have that certainty as well.

所以就像，这件事一定会发生。

So it's like, it's going to happen.

而有时候你会说，我打算用一个低的汽油费，但它在那个区块里没有成功。

Whereas sometimes you say like, I'm gonna put like a low gas fee and it doesn't go through in that block.

那么它什么时候会在下一个区块里完成呢？

And then when is it gonna go through in the next block?

你就是不想干等着加载。

Like you just don't wanna sit there with the loading.

有时候你就是希望事情能立刻发生，对吧？

Like you just want things to happen sometimes, right?

所以坦白说，如果多花10美分或20美分，你就会想，好吧，行吧。

So frankly, if it's like 10¢ extra or 20, you're just like, okay, fine.

或者像DoorDash这样的外卖配送，配送员可能先要去别处送别的东西。

Or, you know, like DoorDash, you know, food delivery, or maybe the delivery driver is gonna stop somewhere else first and drop something else off.

我就只想现在马上拿到。

And like, I just want it now.

我饿了，又饿又气，不管怎么说吧。

Like, I'm hungry, hangry, whatever it is.

是的。

Yeah.

百分之百。

A 100%.

百分之百。

A 100%.

所以，我们看到在L2方面做了很多工作，并且已经得到了实现。

So, you know, we're we're seeing a lot done on the l two side, and we've seen that built out.

你觉得在L2的角色中，应该如何看待这一点呢？

Where do you kind of factor this in in, like, the role of l twos?

你知道，为什么以太坊的执行层达到这种标准很重要，而不是简单地说：‘啊，L2可以处理这些，它们能应对这些扩展性需求’呢？

You know, why is it important that Ethereum's execution layer reach this kind of standard as opposed to just saying, ah, you know, the l twos can handle this, and and they can handle these scalability features?

是的。

Yeah.

这个问题有几个方面。

So there's a couple of parts to this.

我觉得以太坊就像是市中心，而L2就像是上城区或者郊区。

So I think of Ethereum as kind of like downtown and L2s is like uptown or like a suburb.

当然，回到几年前你提到的NFT时代，那时Gas费高得离谱。

Of course, going back to, as you were saying a few years ago in like NFT era for example, gas fees were crazy.

但如果没有人们交易那些如今几乎毫无价值的JPEG图片，我们就不会吸引数亿人进入加密领域。

But without people trading JPEGs, which are largely worthless now, but without trading JPEGs, we wouldn't have brought on hundreds of millions of people into crypto.

对吧？

Right?

正是这件事让这么多人加入了进来。

Like that was the thing that brought so many people on board.

正是这些花费了Gas费的人，谢谢你，才让以太坊和L2变成了今天的样子。

And so it's those people who spent gas, know, thank you, which kind of made Ethereum and the L2s what it is.

对吧？

Right?

这催生了L2的发展路线图，因为我们如今迫切需要扩容。

It spawned kind of like that L2 roadmap where we desperately need scaling today.

我们该怎么办？

What do we do?

于是，L2的发展路线图就出现了。

And poof, there's that L2 roadmap.

通过路线图，我们将部分需求和压力转移到了L2上。

And with roadmap, we've shifted some of the demand and some of the pressure over to the L2s.

同时，我们成功扩展了L1。

Meanwhile, we were able to scale the L1.

因此，现在L1的交易处理能力可以达到原来的十倍甚至二十倍。

And so now the L1 is able to scale to or ten, twenty times the number of trades.

如今，L1的速度已经不逊于甚至超过了众多L2。

L1 is now as fast if not faster than many of the L2s.

突然间，曾经拥堵的市中心仿佛直接跳进了《西部世界》第三季某集那种极其未来感的场景，或者像是5G时代的那种未来图景。

Now all of a sudden this downtown core which got congested has like fast forwarded into a I don't know I need to find like a Westworld third year, third episode, whatever the third season when it was like really futuristic or like a five gs era type of thing.

我们正站在市中心进入那个时代的门槛上。

We're on cusp the of that era in downtown.

所以突然间，市中心将变得像超级炫酷的未来赛博朋克世界。

So all of a sudden downtown is going to look like super hot futuristic cypherpunk.

就是这样，对吧？

There we go, right?

当L1变得如此之快且如此优秀时，整个生态系统都会受益。

And when that L1 is that much faster and that much better, the entire ecosystem benefits.

L1和L2之间的交易会大幅增加，两者之间的互动也会更加频繁和可预测。

You have a lot more trade between the L1 and the L2s, lot more faster predictable interaction between the two.

我们拭目以待，看看接下来会如何发展。

And we'll see where it goes from there.

是的，一些流动性可能会因为市中心变得酷炫而回流到L1。

Yeah, some of the liquidity might shift back to L1 just because downtown's cool.

你有众多夜总会之类的场所，各种活动都在发生。

You have all the nightclubs or whatever, things are happening.

但双方都会变得更强大。

But both both sides get stronger.

整个生态系统都会受益。

The whole ecosystem benefits.

对。

Yeah.

确实如此。

They do.

我们已经与大多数主要的L2项目团队进行了交流，实际上，我们还与一些以太坊主网开发者谈过。

And we've talked to both oh, actually, I I would say most of the major L2s at this point, and we've talked to their teams, and we talked to some of the ETH main net devs.

我认为他们都会同意这一观点，因为以太坊是主链。

And I think that they would both agree with that statement because, again, Ethereum is the main chain.

它是基础层。

It is the base layer.

你只要改进它。

You improve that.

我认为从那以后，所有构建在其上的东西，整个生态系统都会随之提升。

I think everything else from there on, everything that's built on top of it, everything improves in the whole ecosystem.

而且，每个人都会受益。

And, also, everyone benefits.

这几乎创造了一个双赢的局面：我们越建设，就越有利。

It almost creates a win win scenario the more we build this

出去。

out.

当然。

Absolutely.

而且这太简单了。

And it it's so easy.

大多数人忘记了，从更大的角度来看，这些东西其实非常新。

Most people forget just how new this stuff is in the bigger picture.

从宏观来看，当你审视以太坊和大多数区块链相关的发展时，你知道，大部分都发生在过去十年左右。

In the grand scheme of things, when you look at Ethereum and most of the blockchain stuff that has happened, you know, most of it's been in the last decade or so.

当你对比其他任何一种重大技术或金融科技时，它们拥有更长的时间来构建所有现存的东西，远不止这短短几年。

And when you look at every other form of, like, major technology or financial technology and stuff, it's had a lot longer to build all of, like, of of everything that's in existence than than just that.

所以我认为以太坊和整个加密领域正在快速推进。

And so I think Ethereum and and all of crypto, it's doing it fast.

但人们缺乏耐心，有时还容易反复无常，很容易评判并问：为什么我们还没到达终点？

But people are impatient, and sometimes people are fickle, and it's easy to judge it and say, why are we not already at the end game?

你知道，已经十年了。

You know, it's been ten years.

然后他们看看传统金融行业在过去一个世纪里所建立的一切。

And then they look at everything that the TradFi industry has been building over the last, you know, century.

最难的部分是起步。

And the hardest part is getting started.

对吧？

Right?

最难的部分是起步，之后我认为你会看到一个加速发展的曲线。

The hardest part is getting started, and then I think you see an accelerated curve from there.

所以，我想告诉人们的是，嘿。

So that is just something I would tell people to say, like, hey.

你知道，我们正在逐步实现。

You know, we're getting there.

而现在，讨论已经开始。

And now there's the conversation.

你知道吗，现在开始有人讨论无Gas费交易了。

You know, there's starting to be conversations about gasless transactions.

现在，无Gas费交易在加密货币领域被提及得越来越多了。

And now gasless transactions are starting to get mentioned a lot more in crypto.

你知道吧？

You know?

这有道理吗？

Is there any validity to that?

有没有可能存在无Gas费交易的世界？

Is there a world where you could see gasless transactions?

如果有，大概还需要多久？

If so, maybe how far out?

是的，绝对可以。

Yeah, absolutely.

但如果是纯粹意义上的无Gas费，那不可能。

So gasless in the purest sense, no.

但人们还需要考虑和关心汽油费吗？

But will people need to think and care about gas?

我们去掉了这一部分。

We get rid of that part.

所以我们正在做的一个事情是，我们称之为开放汽油计划。

And so one things of we're working on is we have this open gas initiative, we call it.

基本上，这是与协议合作，将汽油费的责任从用户转移到协议本身。

And basically it's working with protocols to shift the responsibility of gas fees to the protocol and away from the user.

比如Pendle、EtherFi、Eigenlayer，还有其他几个。

So guys like Pendle, EtherFi, Eigenlayer, a couple others.

基本上，如果你在进行质押、交易或与这些协议交互，你可能需要支付25美分、一美元，或者任何汽油费金额。

Basically, if you're like staking, trading, interacting with these protocols, you might pay 25¢, a dollar, whatever the gas amount is.

你仍然得支付这笔费用，但到了月底，你会收到这笔汽油费的返还。

You're still going to have to pay it, but at the end of the month you're gonna get rebated that amount of gas back to you.

这样做的效果是，让你意识到：我在进行交易时，根本不需要操心汽油价格在哪里。

And what that does is it makes you realize like, oh I don't need to think about where the gas prices are when I'm gonna transact.

我只是按了一下按钮。

I just kind of hit the button.

这就像现在，如果你买咖啡，今天是5.1美元，明天是5.13美元，后天是5.06美元。

And so that's analogous to like currently, if you pay for it, if you buy a coffee, imagine it's like $5.1 today, 5.13 the next day, 5.06.

如果每天都是固定的5.1美元，那就简单多了。

If it was just $5.1 every single day, it would be so much easier.

这基本上就是这里发生的情况。

So that's basically what happens here.

协议将代表最终用户支付Gas费用，并将其计入交易手续费中。

The protocols will pay for gas on behalf of the end users, and they'll just bake it into their transaction fees.

所以如果你通常支付10个基点的交易费，现在可能变成10.5个基点。

So if you normally pay whatever like a 10 basis point transaction fee, maybe it's 10.5.

但至少不再有Gas费用了。

But at least there's no gas.

你会收到所有这些费用的返还。

You get all those payments back.

是的

Yeah.

对，我觉得这就是它运作的方式。

And yeah, I think that's just the way that it would work.

对吧？

Right?

这就到了一个程度，金额小到让人觉得，好吧。

Is that it gets to be at a point where it's so small that it's like, alright.

我不在乎。

I don't care.

我注意不到。

I don't notice it.

而这正是

And that is the

最终目标。

end goal.

明白吗？

Know?

它永远不会达到最绝对、最精确意义上的‘免费’。

It's never gonna be in the absolute most, you know, specific definition of free.

不一定，但当某样东西便宜到你根本不用去想它的时候。

Not necessarily, but when something's so cheap that you don't have to think about it.

我认为这才是大多数人所在乎的。

I think that's what most people would care about.

你知道的，也许一美元或几美分就能用上很久。

You know, where maybe a dollar or a couple cents will go just forever.

对吧？

Right?

它会一直持续下去，想象一下，如果几美分就能让你用上一整年。

It'll go know, imagine if a couple cents would last you the whole year.

你根本不会去在意它。

You're not gonna think about it.

一半时间，在这里的商店，你知道的，我在佛罗里达。

Half the time, at stores here, you know, I'm I'm in Florida.

你知道，如果你不付现金，就得再多花一点钱。

You know, there's, oh, you're gonna have to pay a little bit more if you don't pay in cash.

对吧？

Right?

嗯哼。

Mhmm.

那时候，差别就很明显了。

And that time, it's, like, a notable a noticeable difference.

有时候，你知道的，我也说不准。

Sometimes it's, you know, I don't know what.

有时候只是几美分的差别。

Sometimes it's a matter of cents.

有时候呢，你的餐费会多出一美元、一美元半，或者两美元。

Sometimes it's a matter of, oh, your meal's gonna be an extra dollar, dollar and a half, $2.

所以我认为，只要差距在那种程度，比如一美元就能覆盖我一整年的费用，或者更少，我觉得没人会在意、抱怨或担心。

And so I think so long as it's, like, that much where you're like, oh, a dollar could cover my entire year of fees or something less than that, I don't think anyone's ever gonna bat an eye or complain or or worry about it.

其中一个有趣的事情，是的。

One of the interesting thing oh, yeah.

你继续说。

Go ahead.

抱歉，本。

Sorry, Ben.

抱歉打断你了。

Sorry to cut you off there.

从普通人的角度来看，你会觉得情况确实如此。

From an everyday person standpoint, you would think that's the case.

关于普通人，我同意你的看法。

And I agree with you as it relates to everyday people.

但最难理解这一点的是传统金融领域的人。

But the folks that have the hardest time trying to understand this is TradFi.

所以我跟多家银行谈过，他们无法理解的是：为什么油价会上下波动？

So I've spoken with a number of banks and the thing that they can't deal with is like, well why do gas prices go up and down?

从我的角度来看，你会想：喂，你可是银行啊。

And like from my perspective, it's like, come on, you're a bank.

你们习惯为一笔交易支付50美元甚至100美元的费用。

You're used to paying like $50 to settle a transaction or like a $100.

在这些对话中，他们会说：可能只需要50美分、75美分，或者1.2美元。

And in those conversations, it's like, well it might be 50¢ or 75 or like a dollar 20.

他们根本无法理解可变的交易费用。

And it's like, they can't fathom a variable transaction fee.

所以我不知道这是教育问题，还是他们真的需要对冲风险，但令人惊讶的是，他们习惯了支付50美元来完成交易，却对50美分、1美元、1.5美元这样的金额感到困惑。

And so I don't know if that's like an education thing or it's something they actually need to hedge, but it's surprising how, again, they're used to paying $50 to settle these things and they're uncertain if it's like 50¢ for a dollar, dollar 50, like they struggle with that.

所以我们需要一起努力，作为整个社区共同解决这个问题，但我们一定能找到办法。

So something we need work on, you know, together and as a community, but we'll we'll figure it out.

我认为你说得对。

Well, I think you're right.

我觉得这是个教育问题，因为人们习惯了电汇和其他各种方式。

I think it's an education peep thing because people are used to wire transfers and all these other different things.

而且他们会想，哦，你要付更多钱，而且还要花更长时间。

And it's like, oh, you're gonna be paying much more and it's gonna take longer.

但现在呢，嘿。

And now it's like, hey.

你有了一个可以选择支付更少、速度更快的选项。

You have this option where you can pay less and have it faster.

而他们却说，哦，但这个有可变性，我们没法这么做。

And they're like, oh, well, but there's a variable feature to it, and we we can't do that.

天啊，万一费用从几美分变成几美元，但交易却是近乎即时的呢。

You know, god forbid, it goes from you're gonna pay a couple cents to a couple bucks, and it's gonna be near instant.

然后他们就会对此嗤之以鼻。

And then they they kinda scoff at that.

我觉得这终究还是个教育问题。

And it's, I think, just gonna need to be an education thing.

我认为随着时间推移，人们会越来越接受它。

And I think as time goes on, people are going to be more open to it.

就像在早期一样，我自己也算年轻，所以对此只能谈一些个人看法。

In the same way that in, you know, the early days and I'm fairly young myself, so I can only speak to this so much.

但在早期，人们对于建网站都持犹豫态度。

But, you know, in the early days, you know, people were hesitant to do websites.

人们对互联网也心存疑虑。

People were hesitant against the Internet.

人们对智能手机也有所抗拒。

People were hesitant against smartphones.

当你说到要把信用卡信息放到网上或手机上用来支付时，人们会想：这样安全吗？

When you're saying, oh, I'm gonna put my my credit card information online or on my phone and pay for things that way, you know, is that even safe?

那些各种不同的环节又该怎么处理呢？

What about all these different moving parts?

我认为，随着区块链变得高度融合，几乎无缝衔接，人们也会逐渐接受这个想法。

And I think people are just gonna warm up to that idea as blockchain becomes so integrated that it's borderline seamless.

我认为，至少在我看来，最终目标是我们能到达这样一个阶段：你根本不需要知道或关心自己是否在使用区块链技术，它只需在后台运行，让整个基础设施以及你的整体生活和体验变得更好。

And I think the end goal, at least in my opinion, is for us to get to a point where you don't even have to necessarily know or care that you're using blockchain technology and have it just working in the background and making all of the infrastructure and your overall life and experience better.

而且我认为我们终将实现这一点。

And I again, I I think we get there.

我真的这么认为。

I really do.

当然。

Absolutely.

当然。

Absolutely.

那我们来聊聊以太坊吧，谈谈以太坊的现状。

So let's talk about Ethereum just like the state of Ethereum.

你知道，之前我们提到过一些交易情况。

You know, some of the transactions, we mentioned this earlier.

就在最近，2026年，以太坊的交易量刚刚创下了历史新高。

Just recently here, you know, in 2026, Ethereum transactions hitting all time highs here fairly recently.

同时，Gas费用也降到了多年来的低点。

And at the same time, gas fees were going down to well, I think it was multiyear lows.

在以太坊交易量创下历史新高之际，Gas费用却低于1美分，这非常令人着迷。

Gas fees were under 1¢ at the same time that Ethereum's transaction count was at all time highs, which is fascinating.

因为，几年前你回过头去看，这种情况简直让人难以置信。

Because, again, a couple of years ago, you go back and you look, and that would have broken a lot of people's brains.

他们会说，什么？你说我们能做的比DeFi夏季、NFT热潮和模因币爆发还要多？

They're gonna say, what what do you mean we're able to do more than DeFi Summer and the NFT boom and the meme coin surge?

而且我们确实做到了比这些还要多。

And we're able to do more than all of that.

我觉得几乎是那两倍。

I I think it was almost double that.

我可能记错了。

I could be wrong.

而费用仍然低于一美分。

And then the the fees are still under a cent.

这些到底是从哪里来的？

Like, where is all of this coming from?

你有没有试着去了解过这方面的情况？

Have you been able to, like, look into that at all?

因为确实如此。

Because it it yeah.

你请说。

Go ahead.

你请说。

Go ahead.

是的。

Yeah.

嗯，我想有一点吧。

Well, I I guess a little bit.

我之前看到过一些东西。

So I I saw something earlier.

我不确定是今天还是昨天，那时候在以太坊上进行交换或转账比在Base上更便宜。

I don't if it was today or yesterday where it was like, it was cheaper to do either a swap or a transfer on Ethereum versus Base.

这挺有意思的。

And like, that's interesting.

我觉得发生的情况是，在Base上有很多交易，但每笔都小得多，对吧？

I think what happens is that like, like on Base you have like so many transactions, but they're like much smaller, right?

大概是102,100美元左右，或者 whatever 它可能是多少。

It's like a $102,100 dollars or whatever it might be.

但同样，在以太坊上，这些相对微小的交易并不常见。

But again, like on Ethereum, those small relatively micro transactions, they don't exist as much on Ethereum.

它们本可以存在，而且很可能应该存在，因为在Uniswap上滑点比在Base上更少。

They could, and they probably should because you get less slippage with Uniswap than on base.

我不确定。

I don't know.

Uniswap仍然——抱歉，L1仍然拥有绝大部分的流动性池。

Uniswap still has sorry, L1 still has the vast large pools of liquidity.

所以我们看看情况会如何发展。

So we'll see where that goes.

正如我所说，L1本身的区块空间将增加十倍。

As I said, the L1 itself is going have 10 times the block space.

如果费用从一分钱降到十分之一分钱，你会看到大量活动重新回到L1。

If that goes from a cent to a tenth of a cent, you'll see a lot of activity shift back to the L1.

因此，从整个生态系统来看，以太坊目前处境很好，但我们会看看会发生什么。

So we're in a great situation here for Ethereum as the broader ecosystem, but we'll see what happens.

也许人们乐于留在郊区，不往市中心跑，也不去交易，我就喜欢待在牧场或他们所在的地方。

Maybe people are happily stuck, not working down, not trading downtown, but in the suburb, I'm happy where I am out in the pasture or wherever they are.

是的。

Yeah.

说得太对了，兄弟。

Spot on, man.

说得太对了。

Spot on.

所以如果人们想参与进来，并使用我们今天谈到的一些功能，他们该怎么做呢？

So if people wanna get involved here and they wanna utilize some of the features that we had talked about today, like how do they do that?

你知道的。

You know?

他们可以直接做吗？还是需要去一个网站？

Can they just do they need to go to a website?

他们需要注册吗？

Do they need to sign up?

他们能通过 MetaMask 钱包操作吗？

Can Can they do it from a MetaMask wallet?

给我们详细讲讲吧。

Walk us through that.

当然可以。

Sure.

这其实分为两个部分。

So there's two parts to this.

第一部分是实时交易部分。

The first part is the real time trading part.

我们正在与十几个钱包合作，它们正处于将实时功能集成到钱包的不同阶段。

So we are speaking with about a dozen wallets at different stages of integrating the real time capability into the wallet.

因此，我预计到夏天，一些主要的钱包将在这一方面完成集成。

And so I'd say by summertime, we'll have some of the major wallets integrated on that front.

有一个钱包，我估计再过一个月左右，将有约一亿人能够使用这项功能。

There's a wallet I'd say give us about a month from now and about a 100,000,000 people will have access to this.

前提是这些钱包所宣称的用户数量是真实的。

Assuming the numbers that the wallets have are true.

所以是的，大约一个月内，将有一亿人能够使用这项功能。

So yeah, well about a 100,000,000 people will have access within about a month.

至于无Gas费的体验，我们已经在我们的开放Gas计划中接入了若干协议。

And then for kind of the gasless experience, we've onboarded a handful of protocols into this in our open gas initiative.

在这种情况下，我们的网站上列出了这些合作协议的名单。

And in that case, on our website, have a list of our partner protocols for that.

所以，如果你正在交易、兑换或与这些协议互动，那么到月底时，你可以访问我们的网站，点击领取，拿回你的汽油费。

So if you are again trading, swapping, interacting with those protocols then at the end of the month you can come to our website and just hit claim and get that gas back.

因此，我们很可能从一周后开始，为本月底启动这一功能。

So we'll be kicking that off likely starting in a week for end of this month.

比如在3月1日或3月3日，你就可以开始申领二月份使用我们合作协议所产生的汽油费。

So like March 1 or March 3, you'll be able to start claiming back your gas fees spent with our partner protocols in February.

哇。

Wow.

我简直不敢相信现在已经二月了。

I can't believe we're in February already.

太棒了。

Awesome.

知道。

Know.

我昨天刚开完一个电话会议，然后我就启动了这个流程。

I I was doing I was doing a call just yesterday, and I kicked it off.

我说了，欢迎回来。

And I said, welcome back.

现在是一月。

It's January.

等等。

Wait.

不对。

No.

实际上现在已经二月了。

It's actually February now already.

只是

It's just

是的。

Yeah.

时间过得真快啊，朋友。

Time time is flying by, my friend.

当然。

For sure.

另一件事是，人们都想参与进来。

Another thing, you know, is so people wanna get involved.

他们可以在哪里关注你的网站和社交媒体？

Where can they follow you on both your website and your socials?

人们应该在哪里搜索你？

Where should people search for you at?

是的。

Yeah.

在我的推特上，我只是 lepso，拼写是 l e p s o e。

So on my ex, I'm just lepso at l e p s o e.

我们的团队账号是 eth gas official。

Our team account is eth gas official.

去那里联系我们。

Hit us up there.

打个招呼吧。

Say hi.

太棒了。

Awesome.

好吧，那我们就此结束，各位。

Well, that's going to go ahead and wrap us up, everyone.

凯文，再次衷心感谢你。

Kevin, once again, thank you so much.

能够了解你正在构建的东西，以及你们如何推动这个行业的发展，真的非常有启发性。

It's been super insightful getting to hear about what you're building and and just how you guys are moving this side of the industry forward.

对于任何经常使用以太坊的人来说，这确实非常迷人。

I mean, it truly is fascinating to anyone who's using Ethereum on a somewhat regular basis.

如果你是其中之一，一定要去了解一下。

And if you are, definitely go check them out, guys.

他们正在做很多酷炫的事情。

They're doing a lot of cool stuff.

显然，今天我们聊到了许多精彩纷呈的话题。

Obviously, so many different awesome topics that we got to talk about today.

但对我来说，最重要的收获是，看看这为加密货币的未来带来了什么可能。

But the big takeaway for me here is that looking at what this enables for the future of crypto.

如果我们能实现近乎即时的交易呢？

What if we are able to get near instant transactions?

如果我们能把手续费降低到几乎无需考虑的程度呢？

What if we are able to make gas fees go down so much that you don't have to think about them?

如果我们能推动大量此前因这些问题而无法实现的创新呢？

What if we are able to enable so many different forms of innovation that weren't previously possible because of some of these issues?

因此，凯文和他的整个团队正在为此努力工作。

And so Kevin and his whole team over there are working hard on this.

所以，凯文，再次感谢你观看。

So, Kevin, once again, thank you so much for watching.

谢谢你们邀请我。

Thank you for having me.

感谢你的时间。

Appreciate your time.