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欢迎收听由Gemini出品的加密货币入门播客，这里是通往未来货币的桥梁。
Welcome to the Crypto one zero one Podcast presented by Gemini, your bridge to the future of money.
好了，各位。
Alright, everyone.
欢迎回到加密货币入门播客。
Welcome back to the crypto one zero one podcast.
希望每个人今天都过得非常愉快，因为无论你来自世界的哪个角落，你都来对地方了。
We hope everyone is having a fantastic day, because no matter where you're coming in from in the world, you're certainly in the right place.
我们为大家准备了另一期精彩的播客，因为今天我们将邀请到保罗·波尔。
We've got another great podcast in store for all of you because today we are joined by Paul Poeh.
他是EdgeWallet的首席执行官兼联合创始人。
He is the CEO and cofounder of EdgeWallet.
保罗，欢迎你，很高兴有你加入。
Paul, welcome, and it's great to have you, man.
嘿。
Hey.
非常感谢你们邀请我。
Thanks so much for having me.
很高兴再次登上《加密入门》这个节目。
Glad to be on crypto one zero one again.
我觉得已经有一段时间了，但我非常欣赏你们所做的事，尤其是‘入门’这个定位。
I think it's been a while, but I love what you guys have been doing as far as, like, I the one zero one title.
对吧？
Right?
帮助人们了解加密货币的基础知识，吸引下一代新用户加入。
Getting people the basics of crypto, onboarding hopefully that next generation of folks.
我们的目标就是邀请来自加密领域乃至更广泛领域的领导者和相关人士，只要是对此感兴趣、想参与的人，我们都希望邀请像你这样的领导者和建设者，让你们这些专家能直接告诉大家：
That is the goal over here is to bring in leaders and people from all over the not just the crypto space, but, like, anybody who's even interested or related or wants to get involved with the crypto space, and trying to bring in some of those leaders and builders like yourself so that you guys, you know, the builders, the experts can say, hey.
让我们来解释这些内容，涵盖各个层面，为每个人提供他们应得的加密入门知识。
Let's explain this stuff and all the different aspects and give everyone that one zero one to crypto that they so much deserve.
对听众们说一下，我们刚才就在聊这个。
And, you know, for the listeners out there, we are just talking right before this.
如果你没有观看这个播客的视频版本，你总可以在YouTube上看到。
If you're not watching the video format of this podcast, you can always see it on YouTube.
所以，如果你是从Spotify、Apple Podcasts或其他任何平台来的，我刚刚不得不称赞一下保罗的帽子。
So if you're coming in from Spotify, or Apple Podcasts or anywhere else, I just had to admire Paul's hat here.
帽子上写着‘反法币加密俱乐部’，我们之前聊了几句，我觉得这帽子真酷。
It said the Anti Fiat Crypto Club, and we were bantering a little bit before this, and I was like, oh, man, that's a really cool hat.
而且这真是些很棒的周边创意，所以给这个点赞。
And it was some really good merch ideas, so, you know, shout out to that.
我觉得这个名字真的很酷。
And I thought it was a really cool name.
不过，保罗，来个小破冰话题吧。
But a little bit of an icebreaker, Paul.
对于还不了解的人，保罗是个攀岩爱好者。
For people who don't know, Paul is a rock climber.
他非常喜欢攀岩。
He loves rock climbing.
所以我想问你一个问题，作为开场：哪件事更难？
So my question for you to to kick us off here was, what's been harder?
是你最近一次攀岩，还是最近一个月加密货币市场开启2026年动荡局面的时候？
Your last rock climb or the last month of the crypto market as we've kind of kicked off a bumpy 2026?
确实挺动荡的，但我认为最难的是记起我上一次攀岩是什么时候。
It's been bumpy, but I think the hardest thing is actually remembering my last rock climb.
你说我是攀岩者。
So you say I'm a rock climber.
我会说自己是个前准攀岩者，我的意思是，我确实和攀岩有很深的交集。
I would call myself a former wannabe rock climber at I this mean, it definitely had a significant overlap between me being a climber.
而且那曾经是我的职业。
And I was actually that was my career.
我不是职业攀岩者，但我经营过一家攀岩馆。
I wasn't a professional climber, but I operated a climbing gym.
我还做过一些户外向导工作。
I did some outdoor guiding.
而这种与加密货币的交集，实际上在我们推出Edge首个版本的那天，我带团队去攀岩了，那个版本当时叫AirBits。
And that overlap with crypto, I actually took our team rock climbing on the day that we launched our our first iteration of Edge, which was actually called AirBits.
你知道吗，我们在2014年的拉斯维加斯发布了它，那是很久以前的事了。
You know, we launched it in in Vegas in 2014, go way back, you know.
我们还一起去拉斯维加斯的红岩地区攀岩了。
And we took them all on a rock climb in Red Rocks in Vegas.
哇哦。
Wow.
但从那以后，我攀岩的频率就一直下降了。
But since then, it's been, like, my climbing frequency has gone downhill.
我家里有个指力板，偶尔会用一下，仅此而已。
I have a fingerboard at home that I'll use on occasion, and that's about it.
但如果要我说我攀过最难的一次，那肯定比过去一个月更难。
But if I had to think of my absolute hardest climb that I did, that was definitely harder than the past month.
过去一个月，尤其是因为我从2014年就开始做加密货币了。
The past month, especially since I've been in crypto since 2014.
别误会，这个月并不容易。
Don't get wrong, it wasn't it wasn't an easy month.
对吧？
Right?
一点都不容易。
It wasn't easy at all.
你得学会管理你持有的加密货币资金，尤其是作为一家公司。
You have to kind of manage funds that you hold in crypto versus not, especially as a company.
我们的所有收入都是以加密货币形式获得的。
We earn all our revenue in crypto.
我们用加密货币支付每个人的工资。
We pay everybody in in crypto.
我说的加密货币，大约90%是比特币。
And when I say crypto, it's like 90% Bitcoin.
哇。
Wow.
而且比特币，它们不只是USDC。
And Bitcoin and they're not just USDC.
我几乎不把这称为加密货币。
I barely call that crypto.
对我来说，那只是法币的支付方式。
To me, that's a payment method for fiat.
嗯哼。
Mhmm.
它是更好的法币支付方式，但仍然是法币的支付方式。
It's a better payment method for fiat, but it's still payment method for fiat.
是的。
Yeah.
但当你用比特币赚钱、用比特币支付工资时，持有比比特币更稳定的东西实际上会非常不便。
But when you're earning Bitcoin and you're paying people in Bitcoin, that means it's actually really inconvenient to hold something more stable than Bitcoin.
因为，你得先赚到钱，然后再把它转换成更稳定的东西。
Because, like, you'd have to earn your money, then convert it over to something more stable.
然后当你需要付款时，又得把钱转回比特币。
Then when you got to pay people, you then got to go convert it out back into into Bitcoin.
所以，我认为我们在很大程度上比其他公司更受加密货币价格的影响，好坏皆有。
So we're, I'd say, probably more tied to the price of crypto than most other companies for better and worse.
对吧？
Right?
市场下跌时，确实会影响我们，市场上涨时也是如此。
When market's down, right, it affects us and market's up.
显然，从长远来看，你可以把它看作是一种类似美元成本平均法的方式。
Obviously, over time, and you think of it as almost like a dollar cost averaging.
对吧？
Right?
总的来说，我认为对我们来说是正面的，但像你提到的那些月份也可能很艰难。
Overall, I think we've it's been in our positive, but it could be tough on months like you mentioned.
但绝对没有我最艰难的攀爬那么困难，你知道的，我在攀岩时曾多次从40英尺高处坠落，砸在装备上，差点就撞到地面了。
But definitely not as hard as my hardest climb where, you know, I've taken, in climbing terms, like 40 foot of whippers falling off onto my gear and, you know, just barely not hitting the ground.
但那些都是很难的攀登。
But those are some hard climbs.
是的。
Yeah.
上个月相比之下就像散步一样，但依然没什么意思。
Last month, walk in the park in comparison, but still nothing fun.
你知道，我试过几次。
You know, I've tried it a few times.
我不能吹嘘自己特别擅长这个。
I can't brag that I was particularly good at it.
但我觉得我们俩都擅长应对这些加密货币的波动了。
But something that I think both of us have gotten good at is weathering these these crypto winners.
而且，老兄，自2014年以来，你经历过的低谷远比我们现在遇到的要严重得多。
And, man, since 2014, you've been through significantly worse ones than whatever we're experiencing now.
你知道，我们说的是比特币在某些时期出现了百分之六十、七十甚至百分之八十以上的跌幅。
You know, we're talking sixty, seventy, 80 plus percent drawdowns on Bitcoin on some of these moves over much more extended periods of times.
你见过崩盘、爆雷以及各种其他情况。
You've seen collapses and blowups and all sorts of other things.
而这就是当前加密市场的一个关键点，回顾过去，我想友好地提醒大家：加密市场曾经经历过更糟糕得多的时期，尤其是当你从基本面的宏观视角来看时，你会发现，如今的基本面其实并没有那么差。
And that's, you know, one of the big things about the crypto market right now is, you know, looking back, just a friendly reminder to everyone is like, hey, the crypto market has been through substantially worse, especially once you look at it from a fundamental kind of bird's eye view, you say, well, the fundamentals here really aren't that bad.
事实上，这可能是近年来基本面最好的时期之一，而且那边也出现了许多积极的进展。
In fact, it's probably in one of the better fundamental spots that it's been in here in in recent years, and you see a lot of positive developments over there.
但在我们深入讨论Edge钱包之前，保罗，你以前是在英伟达工作的，对吧？
But, you know, before we even get into Edge Wallet, Paul, I mean, you used to work at NVIDIA.
我知道你后来离开了，开始做其他事情，其中之一就是联合创立了Edge钱包。
I mean, you since moved on to to doing some other things, and one of those things was co founding Edge Wallet.
请跟我们聊聊这段经历吧，因为当人们回顾过去十年、二十年时，总会说，天啊，当时出现了几件真正重大的事情。
Just walk us through that journey, because when people look at the past, I don't know, decade, two decades about, it was like, man, a couple of really big things came up.
人们总是喜欢拿这两件事来做比较：一个是英伟达，另一个是比特币，它们的表现如何？
And, like, one of the two biggest things that people always like to compare is like, oh, well, how did it do versus NVIDIA, and how did it do against Bitcoin?
而你现在可以说，这两者我都参与其中了。
And you're like, well, I have my hands in both now.
我得说这一点。
I I'll say this.
作为一个既在英伟达工作过又涉足比特币的人，我的财务状况远没有达到应该有的百倍水平。
For someone that both worked at NVIDIA and got into Bitcoin, I am not not as financially sound as I should be by, like, a 100 x.
首先，我离开英伟达时，它还是一家小得多的公司。
Number one, when I left NVIDIA, obviously, it was it was a much smaller company.
尽管它是一家成功的上市公司等等，我确实在那里工作期间获得了一些收益。
Still successful, public company and whatnot, and, you know, I I definitely had some gains from having worked there.
但我离开并不是因为我想做点别的事情。
But I left not because I just wanted to do something else.
我是真的很喜欢我在那里做的工作。
You know, I I love what I did there.
当时，核心业务是图形处理。
At the time, it was graphics.
那是它的主要焦点。
That was the core focus.
是的
Yeah.
我在GPU用于计算的最早期就离开了NVIDIA。
I I left at the very, very start of using GPUs for computing.
我们称之为通用GPU，本质上主要用于机器学习。
We called it GP GPU, general purpose GPU, which was, in essence, used for machine learning primarily.
你知道吗？
You know?
但它本质上只是另一个在GPU上运行的CPU，你知道的，GPU有成千上万个微小的核心。
But it was just it was just another CPU, you know, running on GPU, there's thousands of cores, little tiny cores.
但我热爱图形。
But I love graphics.
我热爱游戏。
I love games.
我喜欢挑战在计算机上创造美丽的图像并将其呈现出来。
I love the challenge of making beautiful imagery on a on a computer and displaying that.
所以我实际上是因为健康原因离开了。
So I left actually for health reasons.
我崩溃了，你知道吗？长时间对着电脑工作，重复性劳损，背部、颈部，所有地方都出问题了，这就是我离开的原因。
I broke down, you know, working in front of a computer, you know, repetitive strain, your back, your neck, everything of broke down, and that's why I had left.
讽刺的是，正是这次离开让我——我不会用‘觉醒’这个词。
And ironically, it's that departure that kind of I won't use the word woke.
帮助我认清了这个世界的现实。
Helped me awaken to the reality of our world.
当你开始为慢性病寻求医疗帮助时，你就会看到这个医疗系统有多么破败。
When you start to look for health care for chronic issues, you start to see how broken that system is.
然后你会开始看到政府和大型机构这个更大的系统，它们之所以如此破败，完全是出于经济利益的驱动。
And then you start to see the grander system of both government and big institution and how broken that is very financially motivated to be very broken.
所以我转行进入了完全不同的行业，非科技行业。
And so I worked in a completely different industry, non tech.
就是在那里，我开始接触攀岩。
That's where got into climbing.
攀岩实际上拯救了我。
Climbing was actually my savior.
它帮助我康复了许多健康问题，比如关节问题等等。
It was my physical therapy for a lot of the things, the ailments, the joint issues and whatnot.
因此，攀岩帮助我度过了那段时期。
So climbing helped me through that.
它还让我接触了许多对健康和养生有不同于传统西方医学观点的人。
It also introduced me to a lot of people that thought differently about health and wellness than your traditional Western medicine.
是的。
Yeah.
这本可以是一个非常长的故事，但简而言之，我发现了比特币，当时我就想，哇。
So this could be an incredibly long story, but fast forward, I discovered Bitcoin, and I'm like, wow.
这也让我意识到，整个金融体系和健康、养生、制药等行业一样腐败。
This is this also taught me that, hey, the whole financial system is just as corrupt as health, you know, health, wellness, pharma, and whatnot.
全都一样腐败。
All just as corrupt.
但这是我们唯一有机会去掀翻的地毯骗局。
But this is the one rug pull that we have an opportunity to pull on.
对吧？
Right?
我们可以真正地把大型体制的根基给抽掉。
Where we can actually sweep the feet out from underneath large establishment.
于是我全身心投入了比特币和加密货币。
And so I went full dive into Bitcoin, into crypto.
你知道，我把剩下的所有钱都投进去了，因为我失业了很长一段时间，所以我把从英伟达拿的所有钱都花光了。
You know, I I sunk what I had left into it, which I drained everything I had from NVIDIA because I was unemployed for a good amount of time.
我无法工作。
I couldn't work.
我的身体彻底垮了。
My hand body was wrecked.
所以我想了想，如果我能保留一些股份，现在可能已经接近一百亿美元了。
So I could I think I calculated out and been close to a 100 billionaire by now if I had been able to keep some of my some of my shares.
但也许接近五十左右吧。
But maybe close to, like, maybe 50 or so.
但，是的，我，你知道，我真的做不到。
But, yeah, I, you know, I I couldn't.
我是真的身体上做不到。
Like, I physically couldn't.
我不得不卖掉并套现，但至少我很感激自己还有钱能熬过多年失业的难关。
I had to I had to sell and unload, and I was at least grateful that I had money to weather the storm of many years of being unemployed.
我剩下的钱都投进了比特币，但我对它充满热情。
And what I had left, I put into Bitcoin, But I was so passionate about it.
我更不在乎钱，而更在乎参与这个颠覆性到极致的领域，我把所有积蓄都投入到了构建这个生态系统中，组织并赞助线下聚会，投入大量时间，然后当然，还创立了这家公司——最初叫Airbit，现在叫Edge。
Like, I I cared less about the money, and I cared more about building in the space that's disruptive to a fault that I sunk everything I had into building in this ecosystem and doing meetups and sponsoring meetups, and sinking my time into that, and then, of course, building this company, you know, originally Airbit's now Edge.
我认为，内心的信念一直指引着我的道路，而这份信念让我忽视了这条路上的财务得失。
And so I think the the principle in me has guided my path, and that principle in me has disregarded the financial aspect of that path.
坦白说，一旦我全身心投入加密货币并创立公司，我就变得只专注于建设，嗯。
Admittedly, as soon as I I went full tilt into crypto and founded a company, I ended up having blinders on into building Mhmm.
我忘记了市场。
That I forget about the market.
是的。
Yeah.
你知道，有时候会想，糟了。
You know, there's like, oh, shoot.
是的。
Yeah.
当我说到忘记市场时，意味着错失了一些机会。
You know, there's When I say about forget about the market, there's opportunities missed.
对吧？
Right?
至于新的资产、新的区块链，这些行动并不仅仅是为了搞一个新链而新链。
As far as new assets, new chains, that action They're not just new chains just to be a new chain.
早在2015年，我就忽略了整个比特币分叉领域，那时所有东西都只是比特币的分叉。
I disregarded the entire space of Bitcoin forks back in 2015 where everything was just a fork of Bitcoin.
但真正令人着迷的是，以太坊实际上是一项非常有吸引力的技术。
But what's been truly compelling came out, like like, Ethereum was actually a very compelling technology.
我的联合创始人参与了以太坊的首次代币发行。
My cofounder was in the Ethereum ICO.
他在ICO时买入了少量，但收益不错。
He he bought at the ICO, very small amount, but it did well.
我记得当时对自己说，真想也买一些。
And I remember saying to myself, yeah, wanna get some of that.
这很合理。
That makes sense.
你懂的？
You know?
可编程的比特币。
Programmable Bitcoin.
明白吗？
Alright?
然后我工作太忙了。
And then I was just too busy with work.
是的。
Yeah.
我把它给忘了，但当然，我们最终还是支持了它。
And I forgot about it, but, course, we eventually supported it.
我们知道它很有吸引力。
We knew it was compelling.
所以我的历程，嗯，我认为是一条过于坚持原则的路。
So my journey has has been, yeah, I think a very principled journey to a fault.
你知道吗？
You know?
但这只是我的做事方式，我会在这座山上胜败分明。
But it's just the way I operate, and I'll I'll win or lose on that that hill.
是的。
Yeah.
事后回头看，确实很容易觉得，哦，这个选择太明显了，我只要持有就行了，就这么简单。
And it's it's so easy to look back on it in hindsight, and be like, oh, well, the pick was so obvious, and I could have just held, and that's all I had to do.
但现实中，从来都不是这么容易的。
But in reality, it's never that easy.
我的意思是，我们最近接触了一位最早的比特币开发者。
I mean, we just had on one of the earliest Bitcoin developers.
你知道，他在2010年就一直在做这个，他说：天啊，我以为自己做了这辈子最棒的投资。
You know, he was working on this in 2010 and everything, and he's like, man, I thought I made the best investment of my life.
我当时以几美分、几美元的价格入手了这个东西。
I was getting in this thing at a few cents, a few dollars.
它涨到了几百美元。
It goes up to a couple $100.
他觉得，我在这上面赚了百分之几百甚至几千的回报，然后你就会想，哇，这真是笔超棒的交易，你知道的。
He's like, I'm making hundreds and thousands of percent gains on these things, and then you go, wow, that was a really good trade, you know.
现在我可以从中赚点利润了。
Now I can take some profits on it.
你知道，没人会预料到它会从几美分涨到几美元，再到十几万美元。
You know, no one ever expects that it'll go from a few cents to a few bucks to, you know, a $100,000.
同样的情况也适用于英伟达。
And the same can you the same could be said about Nvidia.
你可以说，哇，这个东西取得了巨大的成功，或者生活中其他事情也是如此。
You could say, wow, this thing's seen massive success, or other things come up in life.
但回头看时，就容易觉得，哦，原来是这样。
It's And so much easier to look back on it and be like, Oh.
因此，听众有时会设身处地为我们着想，回头一看，就觉得这很明显。
And so listeners sometimes try to put themselves in our shoes, and they look back at it, they say, Oh, well, it was so obvious.
但实际上，事情并没有人们说的那么简单。
And it's like, Well, you know, it wasn't quite as easy as people make it out to be.
但我们现在就在这里。
But here we are.
我的意思是，显然，加密货币的发展已经超越了所有人、大多数人的预期。
I mean, obviously crypto, I think, has surpassed and scaled greater than everyone's expectations, than most people's expectations.
这意味着，我们很多人都认为它会变得重要，但它的爆发速度之快，如今你看到它在世界经济论坛上被讨论，看到各国总统和领导人谈论它，看到最大的资产管理公司和银行都提及它，它已经无处不在。
Meaning that everyone A lot of us thought it was gonna be big, but the rate at which it has blown up, and now you see it being talked about at the World Economic Forum, you see presidents and leaders of countries talking about it, you see the biggest asset managers and banks bringing it up, and it's just so prevalent.
确实无处不在。
It's prevalent.
如果不介意我持一个反主流的观点，我认为它在大多数我关注的方面都失败了。
If you don't mind me like taking a contrarian view, think it's failed on most of the facets that I looked for.
我记得，大概四年前或六年前，我提到过，比特币已经发展了大约八年了，嗯。
And I remember, I think about four or six years ago, I mentioned that, like, Bitcoin has about eight years Mhmm.
要实现成功，嗯。
To achieve success Mhmm.
我所指的成功，和它今天的样子是不同的。
By a definite success that I I think is different than what it has today.
否则，它就会失败。
Otherwise, it will fail.
好的。
Okay.
而那个理论认为它实际上会被用作一种货币。
And that theory was around it being actually used as a currency.
是的。
Mhmm.
对吧？
Right?
因为如果它不被用作货币，其他许多东西就可能在货币用途上超越它，而作为纯粹的价值储存，它的竞争力很难维持超过大约八年，这正是我当初的预测。
Because if it isn't used as a currency, many other things can surpass its use as a currency, and it can't be competitive as pure store value for much longer than approximately eight years is what I was predicting.
对吧？
Right?
大概是从六年前开始的。
From about, I think, six years ago.
所以我还有几年时间。
So I got a couple years.
我觉得我们现在已经开始看到比特币的增长放缓了。
And I think we're starting to see that now where the growth in in Bitcoin has slowed down.
而且我认为整个加密行业仍然是一个非常有吸引力的领域。
And and I think crypto as a whole is still a very compelling industry.
对吧？
Right?
我觉得你们搞的是加密货币入门，而不是比特币入门。
I'm like, you know, you guys are crypto one zero one, you're not Bitcoin one zero one.
但问题是，目前整个加密行业仍然追随比特币，因为它是鼻祖。
But the problem is that the whole crypto industry tends to to follow Bitcoin for now because it's it's the godfather.
直到这一点被取代，是的。
And until that dislodges Yeah.
或者不再追随比特币，也许因为他们意识到，好吧。
Or doesn't follow Bitcoin, and maybe because they realize, okay.
比特币只是这么一个东西，但我们其他东西——比如实用性和去中心化金融——却蕴含着巨大的价值，是的。
Well, Bitcoin is just this one thing, but we have a tremendous amount of value in this other thing, which is the utility side, the DeFi side Yeah.
交易、对冲、预测市场等等。
Trading, hedging, prediction markets, blah blah blah.
我们并不会只是盲目追随比特币的趋势。
And we don't just kind of follow the trend of Bitcoin.
在那之前，它一直在拖累整个市场。
Until that happens, it's kind of taking down the rest of the market.
关于价值存储的这种说法，我一直认为远远不够。
And that narrative of store of value, I've always said, is not good enough.
对吧？
Right?
如果比特币只是这个作用，那我们有黄金，有白银。
If that's all it is, we've got gold, we've got silver.
黄金和白银曾经有过高光时刻，现在又正在迎来它们的高光时刻。
And gold and silver had their moment, and they're having their moment right now.
因此，从根本上说，比特币相对于黄金和白银的优势在于它的实用性，而我们还没有真正发挥出来。
And so, fundamentally, that utility is what Bitcoin has above gold and silver, and we haven't exercised it.
所以，当我们在世界经济论坛上与银行和政府等讨论它时，我开始意识到，这可能是 adoption 过程中一把最致命的双刃剑——因为现在，人人都听说过它了。
So it us talking about it at World Economic Forum with banks and governments and whatnot, I'm starting to look back as it being one of the biggest double edged swords of adoption because, yeah, now it's everybody's heard of it.
对吧？
Right?
关于它已经没有什么新东西了，但同时也缺乏热情，因为又只是银行和政府在推动。
There's nothing new anymore about it, but there's also a lack of excitement about it because, well, it's just the banks and the governments again.
嗯哼。
Mhmm.
所有那些元老级人物、密码朋克，他们曾经关心隐私，还有那种我讨厌这个词，但你知道的，平等的访问权，对，金融自由。
And all of the the OGs, the cypherpunks that cared about things like privacy and, you know, equal I hate that word, but, you know, equal access to to Yeah.
金融生态系统、金融自由这些价值观，在政府和银行采纳的叙事中早已消失。
A financial ecosystem, financial freedom, those values are long gone from that narrative of government and bank adoption.
那我们该如何把它们重新带回？
So how do we bring those back?
因为这两者是可以共存的。
Because the the two can coexist.
对吧？
Right?
是的。
Yeah.
银行可以为那些想通过对冲基金、ETF或其他方式持有比特币的人代为保管，但我们也完全可以将比特币用于其实用层面，实现金融自由和交易自由。
Banks can go and hold Bitcoin for people that wanna hold it in a hedge fund or an ETF or whatnot, but we could also be using it in its utilitarian sense for financial freedom, transactional freedom.
所以这种平衡已经严重失调了。
So that balance is just off kilt.
我是天秤座。
And I'm a Libra by sign.
对我来说，事物必须保持平衡，而现在的状况简直失衡得离谱。
So to me, things have to be in balance, and it's way the hell off balance right now.
我仍然支持。
I'm still pro.
我在这个生态系统中仍然是看涨的。
I'm still a bull in this whole ecosystem.
不过，我还没有清晰的思路来如何恢复这种平衡。
I don't have a good clear picture of how to get it back in balance, though.
所以你认为比特币的未来应该更侧重于让它更像一种货币，推动它在日常交易中的使用，而不是专注于机构层面并推动这方面发展吗？
So do you think that the way forward for Bitcoin should be more focused on making it more like a currency and getting it used in that kind of use case as opposed to let's look at the institutional side and push it that way.
当然。
Absolutely.
我不太关注监管那一套，比如天才法案、清晰法案之类的。
So I'm not into the regulation stuff, like, you know, Genius Act, Clarity Bill, all that stuff.
但如果非得让我推一件事，那就是设立一个最低豁免额度，让我们能真正地花比特币，而不必处理那些税务问题。
But if there's any one thing I would push for, would be like a de minimis exemption, so we can actually spend Bitcoin and not have to deal with yeah.
买杯咖啡，别再为资本利得或资本损失烦恼了。
Buy coffee, not to deal with capital gains, capital losses.
你知道的。
You know?
理论上，既然另一个国家已经将比特币作为官方货币采纳了，比如萨尔瓦多，那么比特币也应该享受和欧元、比索、加元一样的最低豁免待遇。
And if another country in theory, since there is another country that has adopted Bitcoin as their actual official currency, you know, with El Salvador, then it should fall under that same de minimis exemption that we have for, like, the euro and, you know, the peso and the Canadian dollar.
理应如此。
It should.
如果能做到这一点，就能缓解许多人对追踪税务问题的担忧。
If it can get to that, well, that can alleviate the concerns that a lot of people have of having to track for taxes.
我个人并不认为这是个大问题，因为现在有非常优秀的税务软件，你只需输入交易信息、买入和卖出的时间，它就会自动生成一份表格，显示你的收益或亏损。
Personally, I don't think that is a big concern given there's such great tax software out there now, where, alright, you you plug in the the transaction and when you acquired and you sold, and it'll just create a form that says this is your gain or loss.
是的。
Yeah.
对吧？
Right?
你根本不需要自己算账。
You don't actually have to do the math.
说实话。
And let's be real.
只要你们用来交易的App能导出交易发生的时间，
That math, so long as, like, the app that you use to make the transactions can export, you know, the time you made the transaction.
以及你进行交易时的比特币数量。
Actually, the time and the amount of Bitcoin that you made the transaction.
这简直就是七年级代数的水平，用来计算你的收益和亏损。
This is literally like seventh grade algebra math to then figure out what's your gain and loss.
是的。
Yeah.
这并不难算。
It's not hard math.
只是数据量很大，如果你交易很多的话。
It's just a lot of data, you know, if you're doing a lot of transactions.
数据量是很大，但你只要算一算，结果就出来了。
It's a lot of data, but you just do the math and boom, there's your gain and loss.
从概念上讲，这确实很烦人。
And conceptually, it's pain in the ass.
但这就是软件为我们做的事情。
But that's what software does for us.
它让理论上复杂的事情变得简单。
It makes conceptually hard things easy.
这会是我唯一会推动的事情。
That would be the only thing I'd push for.
但接着，是的，我认为我们确实需要把采用率作为一种货币。
But then, yes, I think we actually need adoption as a currency.
但还有像去中心化金融这样的东西。
But then also things like DeFi.
对吧？
Right?
让比特币本身，也就是区块链，能在去中心化金融生态系统中变得有用。
Make it where Bitcoin, the chain itself, becomes useful in the DeFi ecosystem.
你知道，像二层网络已经部分启动了，但还没被充分推广，尤其是比特币原教旨主义者们。
You know, like the layer twos have partially launched, but haven't quite been pushed, especially not by the Bitcoin Maxis.
他们从不推动比特币的任何去中心化金融层。
They don't push any of the DeFi layers of Bitcoin.
那是对的。
That that that is true.
真有趣，你提到这个，因为上周我刚和一个朋友聊过这个话题。
It's funny that you bring this up because I was just talking to a buddy last week about this.
他说，比特币根本没被当作货币使用，也永远不可能作为货币成功，诸如此类的说法。
And he was saying, you know, Bitcoin isn't being used as a currency, and it'll never work as a currency, and all these things like that.
我们为此展开了一番小小的辩论。
And we went back and forth on a little debate.
我说，那你所谓的‘没被使用’是什么意思？
And I was like, well, what do you mean it's not used?
他说，根本没人用它。
He's like, well, no one uses it.
总是这也不行，那也不行。
It's never this and that.
它根本没法和任何其他东西相比。
It just doesn't compare to anything else.
有趣的是，我那周早些时候看到过一组数据，是关于2025年总交易量的报告，对比了Visa、Mastercard和比特币。
And it's funny because I I had a stat that I read earlier that week, and it was doing a twenty twenty five total transaction volume report, and it compared Visa, Mastercard, and Bitcoin.
万事达卡的总交易额约为9.7万亿美元。
Mastercard did about 9,700,000,000,000.0 in in total dollar transactions.
维萨的交易额约为16万亿美元，而比特币的总交易额接近两者之和，达到约25万亿美元。
Visa did about $16,000,000,000,000 in transactions, and Bitcoin was nearly more than both of them combined at around 25,000,000,000,000 in total dollars transacted.
我说，那我们到底是在衡量什么价值呢？
I said, so what are we measuring value here of?
如果你谈的是交易量，它还能更好吗？
You know, if you're talking about transactions, could it be better?
它还能更大吗？
Could it be bigger?
当然可以。
Absolutely.
但当你看到比特币的交易量几乎与维萨和万事达卡的总和相当，甚至超过其中任何一个时，我觉得，某种程度上它确实被使用了。
But when you're looking at almost the same amount than Visa and MasterCard combined and bigger than either one individually, was I like, you know, it's it's being used to some sense.
他则说，我唯一不满的是它的波动性。
And he goes, well, the thing that I have a gripe about is the volatility.
你知道，鉴于比特币最近规模庞大且波动剧烈，我们为什么要转向这样的系统呢？
You know, why would we move towards a system like that given how big and volatile Bitcoin has been as of lately.
我们为此来回讨论过，但这是我常听到的一种最常见的反对意见，人们说：我不希望它被用作货币，就是因为波动性。
And we went back and forth on that, but that's like one of the most common, I guess, kickbacks that I hear from people that say, well, I don't want it to be used as a currency because of the volatility.
你对这些人怎么说？
What do you say to those people?
当你说到不想让它被用作货币时，很多其他货币从比特币那里借鉴的一点是，Yeah。
So when you say don't want it be used as a currency, the one piece that a lot of other currencies snagged from Bitcoin Yeah.
就是使用一种比比特币更稳定、但基于比特币链的工具。
Is being able to use something that is more stable than Bitcoin, but on the chain of Bitcoin.
或者你现在需要比特币作为类似以太坊那样的燃料代币，从这个角度看，它本身就具有价值。
Or you now need Bitcoin as like the gas token, the way Ethereum is used as the gas token, and that it inherently has value from that point of view.
所以你可以混合搭配它的用途。
So you can mix and match its utility.
对吧？
Right?
对某些人来说，比特币的用途在于我想持有比特币，因为我相信它的价值会上涨并被广泛采用。
The utility of of for some people, I wanna hold Bitcoin because I believe that it will go up in value and it will get adopted.
如果我持有它，实际上更容易进行交易。
And if I hold it, it's actually easier for me to transact it.
对其他人来说，其用途在于可以利用区块链的可编程性来持有——希望不是由政府银行背书的稳定币，而是像DAI这样的算法稳定币。
And then for other people, the utility is, oh, I can use the chain with some programmability to be able to hold, you know, hopefully not a government bank backed stablecoin, but maybe an algorithmic stablecoin like DAI.
是的。
Yeah.
并能够进行这种交易。
And be able to transact that.
尤其是能够私密地进行这种交易。
Or and especially, be able to transact that privately.
是的。
Yeah.
因此，对某些人来说，如果我能私密交易，波动性就没那么重要了，因为在传统金融体系中我无法做到这一点。
And so for some people, the volatility won't matter as much if I'm transacting privately because I can't do that with a traditional financial system.
我无法用基础的比特币做到这一点。
I cannot do that with basic Bitcoin.
是的。
Yeah.
所以这些是它原本不具备的层级。
So these are the layers that it didn't have.
你说得对。
And you're right.
如果仅仅从纯粹的底层比特币角度来看，由于其波动性，你并没有太大的竞争优势。
If it's from the viewpoint of just raw pure l one Bitcoin, you don't really have a huge competitive advantage because of its volatility.
但我也告诉他们，你知道是什么真正赋予了某种东西稳定性吗？
But, you know, what I also tell them is guess what actually gives something stability?
是使用。
Is use.
是的。
Yeah.
是实际的使用。
Is is is actual use.
所以如果你看看美元的稳定性以及是什么使其稳定，那就是以美元计价的长期合同。
And so if you look at the stability of the dollar and what causes it to become stable, it's what our long term contracts denoted in dollars.
是的。
Yeah.
你知道，有三十年期的以美元计价的合同。
You know, there are thirty year contracts denoted in the dollar.
对。
Yep.
猜猜看其中一个是啥？
Guess what one of those are?
房贷。
A mortgage.
是的。
Yeah.
对吧？
Right?
所以房贷是一份以美元计价的三十年期合同。
So mortgage is a thirty year contract that's denoted in the dollar.
我们大约有十五份以比特币计价的合同。
We have roughly 15 contracts denoted in Bitcoin.
这基本上就是你使用BitPay之类服务购物时看到的付款账单。
And that is basically a payment invoice that you might see when you, like, buy something with, like, BitPay.
对吧？
Right?
他们会将汇率锁定十五分钟。
They'll lock the rate for fifteen minutes.
因此他们不得不对冲这一风险。
And so they're gonna have to hedge against that.
对吧？
Right?
确保一旦价格上下波动，他们也能应对自如。
Making sure that, okay, if the price goes up and down, they're gonna be okay.
因此，这种对冲行为通过维持价格稳定来帮助稳定价格。
So that actually that that hedging to keep the price to keep it stable for them helps stabilize the price.
进一步发展，可以有比特币的一小时合约、一天合约、一个月合约。
You grow that further, an hour contract, a day contract, a month contract in Bitcoin.
如果你开始报价更短期的金额，而不是三十年期的，这就会开始稳定价格，因为交易双方都希望价格稳定，以便预测自己需要支付和将要收到的金额。
And if you're starting to quote even shorter term amounts that aren't thirty years, that starts to stabilize the price because both sides of the both sides of the equation want to want to have that price stable to be able to predict what they owe and what they're gonna receive.
比如，知道我需要支付多少。
Like, know what I'm gonna owe.
我想确保自己能赚到足够的钱来支付我欠的这笔款。
I wanna make sure that I can earn enough money to be able to pay that thing I owe.
我会收到这笔金额。
Well, I'm gonna receive this amount.
我想确保这笔金额在未来也能正常使用。
I wanna make sure that that amount is usable in the future as well.
所以，直到你开始采用这种方式，才可能获得真正的稳定性。
So until you start adopting that, you're not gonna get really good, like, stability.
是的。
Yeah.
需要注意的是，没有任何东西是真正稳定的。
And note that nothing is truly stable.
比如，美元就不是真正稳定的。
Like, the dollar is not truly stable.
我们曾经都认为黄金是稳定的。
We had thought we all thought gold was stable.
我的意思是，它一天之内就暴跌了大约30%。
I mean, it crashed by, like, 30% in a day.
而这还是相对于美元而言的。
And that's relative to the dollar.
也就是说，你要定义什么是美元的稳定性。
Like, you know, so you define dollar stability.
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所以，当你将美元作为锚定时，而且你只成长在一个以美元为基础的经济环境中，美元看起来确实非常稳定。
And so, yes, when you're when you're pegging the dollar and you've only grown up in a dollar based economy, it seems pretty darn stable.
是的。
Yeah.
你知道的？
You know?
法定货币在崩溃之前看起来是稳定的。
And and fiat is stable until it's not.
对。
Yes.
一旦不再稳定，它只会向下不稳定。
And when it's not, it it is only stable downward.
向下不稳定。
Unstable downward.
另一点，法定货币在崩溃之前都是向下稳定的。
Another thing, fiat is stable downward until it's not.
当它不再稳定时，就会向下变得不稳定。
And when it's not, it becomes unstable downward.
而其他所有东西都是双向都不稳定的。
Whereas everything else is unstable in both directions.
是的。
Yeah.
所以在这方面，你得自己选一种毒药。
So pick your poison in that regard.
但没错，实用性会赋予它稳定性。
But yes, utility will give it stability.
我来举一个相对稳定的例子，就是那些具有实用价值的币种，我。
And I'll kind of give one example of what has been relatively stable are the coins that are used for utility, I.
E.
E.
门罗币。
Monero.
是的。
Yeah.
对吧？
Right?
自2018年以来，门罗币一直非常稳定。
Monero has been hugely stable since 2018.
嗯。
Mhmm.
对吧？
Right?
它一直这样，你知道的，当我说到非常稳定时，我自己都觉得这有点疯狂。
It's been like, you know, when I say hugely stable, a few I personally say that's crazy.
比如，价格在150到300美元之间波动，最高时接近400美元。
Like, a hundred and fifty to three hundred peak $400 ish.
是的。
Yeah.
对吧？
Right?
是的。
Yeah.
当然。
Sure.
它曾接近700美元。
It hit almost 700.
这算是比较罕见的。
That's kind of a rarity.
但从2018年以来，150到202.50美元基本上一直是它的波动区间。
But since 2018, 150 to $202.50 has basically been its range.
你知道的，在加密货币领域，相对于整个加密市场来说，这已经稳如磐石了。
You know, in the crypto landscape, that is solid as rock relative to crypto as a whole.
作为投资来说并不算好，除非你只是在做短线交易
It's not great as an investment, unless you're just trading it
是的。
Yep.
在这个范围内，但它作为支付手段相对稳定。
Between this window, but it's relatively stable for for, like, payments.
对。
Yeah.
而且当你
And when you
而且它被使用。
And it is used.
在其他国家，还有通货膨胀之类的问题。
At other countries, inflation and stuff as well.
这会为它增加另一层复杂性。
Like, that this is gonna add another level of complexity to it.
但评判起来很容易，比如最高级别的法定货币标准——有人会说美元，然后说，哦，我们是在和它做比较。
But it's so easy to judge, like, the highest tier of fiat standards, which one could argue is the dollar, and say, oh, well, we're comparing it against this.
好吧，我们把它和其他国家的本币相比，那些国家的货币没那么好，通胀率高得多，波动性也同等甚至更高。
Well, let's compare it to, like, to other people's native fiats, where it's not as good, where it is significantly more inflationary, where it is equally, if not more volatile.
我的意思是，你说比特币去年下跌了10%，或者时不时有两位数的波动。
I mean, you talk about, oh, well, Bitcoin was down 10% last year, or it was double digit moves here and there.
伙计们，对于那些货币以极高速度通胀的国家来说，这其实很正常。
Guys, that can be a normal thing for some of these other fiat countries that are inflating at rapid rates.
对他们来说，这种情况是家常便饭。
For them, they're gonna yeah.
这只是一个月份。
That's a month.
对他们中的一些人来说，每个月都是这样。
Like every month for some of them.
说得对。
Spot on.
因此，从这个角度来看待问题很重要。
And so, using perspective here is important.
还有这么多替代方案。
And there are so many workarounds.
我认为从这一点得出的最重要结论是，保罗，那就是：我们有多种选择，有替代方案，而且这些事情正在发生。
And then that's what I think the big takeaway from this is, Paul, is that, hey, there are options, there are workarounds, and this stuff's happening.
你还会坚持你最初的观点吗？即我们还有时间来开始做这些事情？
Would you still hold the original thesis that you had true of saying, hey, we have this time horizon to start doing these things?
如果不是，可能会出现问题。
If not, there could be issues.
那么，在当前情况下，你对这些问题持什么看法？
Like, where do you stand all that in the current current day?
是的。
Yeah.
我认为我们仍然会面临这些问题，而且我们已经开始看到了。
I think I think we will still have and we are starting to see those issues.
我认为这些问题还会继续。
I I think those issues will continue Mhmm.
直到比特币实现实际用途。
Until Bitcoin achieves utility.
我已经看到和听到很多最初大力支持比特币的人——我不叫他们马克斯主义者，但这些人曾经大力推广和支持比特币，现在却因为比特币忽视实用性而退出了。
And I'm already seeing and hearing a lot of the original, like, Bitcoin I won't call it Maxxis, but the people promoted Bitcoin very heavily and supported Bitcoin very heavily, backing out because of its defocus on utility.
他们仍然支持整个加密货币领域。
Still being pro crypto as a whole.
对吧？
Right?
意思是，他们并没有离开加密生态系统，因为加密生态系统确实具有强大的实用潜力，但他们不再支持比特币了。
Meaning that they haven't, like, left the crypto ecosystem because the crypto ecosystem does have strong utility potential, but they're backing off on supporting Bitcoin.
他们可能正在缓慢地抛售自己的持仓。
They're probably slowly offloading, you know, their stash.
毫无疑问，这导致了部分抛售，或者说我称之为比特币在这轮周期中连轻微的指数级增长都无法实现。
And no question about it, that has contributed to some of the sell off or I'd call it the inability for Bitcoin to even hit like an ex you know, a small a mild exponential gain Mhmm.
在这个周期中。
In this cycle.
你知道，我们从69涨到了126。
You know, like, we went from 69 to a 126.
我们连两倍都没到。
We didn't even two x.
是的。
Yeah.
你知道吗？
You know?
所以这相当罕见，这实际上是第一次，不对。
So that's relatively unheard of, which is this is now the first time actually, no.
这是第二次，如果你相信四年周期存在的话，四年周期中需要发生的事就是比特币价格至少每四年翻一番。
It's the second time where our you know, if you believe the four year cycle exists, the thing that needs to happen in in the four year cycle is for Bitcoin's price to at least double every four years.
对吧？
Right?
是的。
Yeah.
这次比特币价格没有翻倍，这意味着比特币的安全预算正在减少。
And it didn't double this time, which means that our security budget for Bitcoin is going down.
嗯。
Mhmm.
对吧？
Right?
用于保障比特币区块链安全的资金正在减少。
How much money is being put to secure the Bitcoin blockchain is going down.
所以，是因为我提到的这些因素，比如实用性方面的担忧吗？
And so, is it because of all the things I said, you know, and and the concerns of utility?
我肯定这些因素有一定影响。
I'm sure it's contributed to it.
我不确定这是否是主要原因，但我肯定它们起到了推动作用。
I don't know if it's the reason, but I'm sure that it has contributed to it.
很多早期的巨鲸正在抛售部分持仓，并转向其他方向。
And a lot of the the OG whales, you know, are are offloading some and looking elsewhere.
我认为你可以补充的一点是，我们看到的另一个现象是通过山寨币项目导致的稀释。
One of the other things that I think you could throw in here, you know, it's one of the things that we've seen, is the argument of dilution through Altcoin projects.
对吧？
Right?
你可以说，嘿。
You could say, hey.
你知道，2018年的时候我记不清具体数字了，但当时可能只有几百个，也许几千个。
You know, maybe in 2018 I don't have the exact number off the top of my head, but, you know, there's a few 100, maybe a few thousand.
而今天你看，仅在CoinMarketCap上列出的就超过了三千万个。
And you look today, and just the ones that are listed on coin market cap is over 30,000,000.
你可以说，现在你所做的就是把流动性、关注度都碎片化了，分散了，然后通过不断添加更多的山寨币项目，持续地稀释着它们。
And you could say, well, now what you have done is you have fractionalized the liquidity, and you fractionalized the focus, and you divvied it up, and you've continued to dilute that, and dilute that by adding more and more altcoin projects.
当然，我猜其中大多数可能都是模因币之类的东西，但同样的逻辑依然成立。
Granted, I would assume that most of those are probably meme coins and stuff, but still, the same concept goes on.
你知道，一开始是比特币作为主要的一层，然后加上以太坊，再接着是其他项目，就这样不断延续下去。
You know, you start with Bitcoin as the main layer one, then you add Ethereum, then you add, you know, other ones, and it continues.
然后更多的第一层网络被构建，更多的第二层网络也被建立，接着各种项目在这些基础上开发，以实现高度特定的功能，这样一来，稀释效应就进一步加剧了。
And then more layer ones get built, and then more layer twos get built, and then different projects are being built on top of these to do these hyper specific functions, and then you kind of dilute.
所以那些人会说，嘿。
So the people who are saying, hey.
我本来想因为这些原因把钱投资到比特币或以太坊，但现在我有了具体项目可以投入，资金就不再流入比特币了，这种效应在长达十年的时间里不断累积。
I wanted to invest my money into Bitcoin or Ethereum because of all these reasons, now I have specific projects that I can put them into that is now not going into Bitcoin, and then you have that essentially compounding over a decade of time, let's say.
我也见过这种观点，即认为这是导致流动性被碎片化的一个重要因素。
And I've seen that be an argument as well, is to say, hey, you know, that's a contributing factor to this, is that liquidity is getting fractionalized.
你对这个观点怎么看？
Would you where would you stand on that?
这完全正确。
That's absolutely right.
这毫无疑问。
That's like, no question about it.
不可能因为多了一百万个项目，就带来一百万倍的人，或者一百万倍的资金涌入这个领域。
There's no way that just having, like, a million other projects creates a million more people, you know, or or a million times as much money coming into the space.
但这一切最初是从哪里开始的？
But where did that all start from?
我的意思是，它始于比特币不愿意采纳。
I mean, it started from Bitcoin not wanting to adopt.
而且
And
所以维塔利克·布特林希望打造以太坊，作为比特币2.0的功能。
so Vitalik Buterin wanted Ethereum as a Bitcoin two point o feature.
他敦促核心开发者将可编程性加入比特币。
And he pressed the core developers to include programmability into Bitcoin.
在2014到2015年期间，有一种说法，被称为比特币2.0。
There was a narrative in 2014 '15, and they called it Bitcoin two point o.
那是一个术语，是的。
That was a term Yeah.
在2014年和2015年。
In twenty fourteen and fifteen.
你经常听到这种说法。
You heard it all the time.
一切都围绕着比特币的可编程性。
It was all about the programmability of Bitcoin.
对吧？
Right?
他们当时还没使用去中心化金融这个术语。
They didn't use their term DeFi yet.
他们说，天哪，这个能做。
They say, oh my god, can do this.
那个也能做。
We can do that.
有了比特币，它不只是支付工具。
With Bitcoin, it's not just payments.
讽刺的是，现在连支付都不是了。
Ironically, now it's not even payments.
但后来变成了，哦，连支付都不是了，不只是支付。
But then it was, oh, it's not even pay it's not just payments.
我们可以实现所有这些可编程性。
We can do all this programmability.
维塔利克大力推动这一点，但被否决了，于是他推出了以太坊。
And Vitalik had really pushed for it, and he got shot down, and so he launched Ethereum.
哇。
Wow.
Zcash也是同样的情况。
Same thing for Zcash.
对吧？
Right?
隐私是推动比特币发展的重要方向之一。
Privacy was one of the biggest pushes to get into Bitcoin.
你知道的，给它加上一层隐私功能。
You know, give it a privacy layer.
让我们用知识证明来进行交易。
Let us transact with our knowledge proofs.
这个想法被否决了，于是Zcash出现了。
That was shot down and out came Zcash.
一旦打开闸门，这些功能实际上就打开了闸门，因为在那之前，比特币占据了加密货币总市值的90%，其他所有币种都只是它的克隆。
And once you open the floodgates, and those things basically open the floodgates, Because prior to that, Bitcoin had, like, 90% of the the market cap of all of crypto, and everything else was a clone.
是的。
Yep.
当时全是复制粘贴，拿走代码，复制一下，再推出一个币，比如Masa币、这个币，你知道的，Aurora币。
It was just copy pasta, take the code, copy it, launch another coin, Masa coin, this coin, you know, Aurora coin.
然后
And then
你懂的。
the You name it.
所有分叉也是。
All the forks too.
那些都是分叉。
That was all those were all forks.
你是说比特币的分叉，比特币？
Like, oh, you mean a fork in Bitcoin Bitcoin,
你知道的，比特币钻石，比特币
you know, Bitcoin, diamond, Bitcoin
钻石。
diamond.
是的。
Yeah.
比特币黄金。
Bitcoin, gold.
对。
Yeah.
那些不是代码分叉，而是链分叉，从比特币现金开始。
Those were not the code forks, but the chain forks, starting with Bitcoin cash.
正确。
Correct.
但实际上，链分叉是在以太坊之后发生的。
But the the chain fork actually happened the the chain forks happened after Ethereum.
是的。
Yeah.
以太坊已经出现了。
Ethereum already came about.
链分叉是为了让比特币能够与所有新币种（如以太坊）竞争而做出的尝试。
The chain fork was chain forks were an attempt to to make Bitcoin competitive against all of the code for against all of the the newer cryptos such as Ethereum.
但一旦人们发现比特币不会采纳这些新功能，分叉就出现了。
But once it was seen that Bitcoin would not adopt to some of this new utility, the forks came out.
而现在，这些分叉实际上很有吸引力。
And now the forks actually were compelling.
它们并不是一些随意的产物。
They weren't just like some random.
事实上，这些在那之前就已经是迷因币了。
Really, these were meme coins before that.
对吧？
Right?
Aurora币、Masa币，诸如此类的。
The the Aurora coin, Masa coin, blah blah blah.
它们只是迷因币而已。
They were just meme coins.
你知道的。
You know?
我不太想把责任推给它们，但狗狗币就诞生于那个时代。
And I hate to throw it under the bus, like, Dogecoin was in that era.
莱特币也诞生于那个时代。
Litecoin was in that era.
它们一直存活至今。
They've survived.
有一些，你知道的，一些模因币存活了下来。
There's some, you know, some meme coins survive.
对吧？
Right?
是的。
Yeah.
但它们本质上都是模因币。
But they were basically all meme coins.
然后以太坊出现了，人们意识到，哦，我们实际上可以推出一个具有比特币所不具备的真实附加功能的区块链。
Then Ethereum came out, it's like, oh, we can actually launch a chain that has some true additional utility that Bitcoin doesn't have.
接着你开始看到其他一些区块链基于此发展，隐私层也开始出现。
And then you start seeing some other chains that also build upon that, and then the privacy layers start to come out.
然后，由于你已经打开了分叉的闸门，你开始分叉以太坊本身，或者创建更快、更便宜的以太坊竞争者，比如索拉纳。
And then you use you know, then because you've kind of opened up the floodgates of forks, then you start forking Ethereum itself or creating competitors to Ethereum that are faster and cheaper, such as Solana.
但这一切都始于比特币不愿采纳。
So but it all started with Bitcoin not wanting to adopt.
现在比特币想要采纳所有这些功能，是不是太晚了？
Now is it too late for Bitcoin to adopt all of those?
这就是所有试图构建比特币二层生态系统的创业者们努力想要挽回的局面——重新吸引这些关注，把流量拉回比特币，提升比特币的市值占比，把原本流向其他链的动能拉回来。
This is where all the entrepreneurs trying to build the l two ecosystem of Bitcoin are trying to get that back, get all that attention, drive it back into Bitcoin, get that market cap percentage, you know, the Bitcoin dominance back up by pulling all of this inertia away from it.
但不幸的是，比特币生态系统内部正经历一场小小的斗争，有些人说：‘我不希望这些东西被加入进来。’
But, unfortunately, it's it's a bit of a a battle, you know, within the the Bitcoin or ecosystem where it's like, I don't want that stuff in.
我们必须把这些功能加进去。
We have to put that in.
是的。
Yeah.
我不确定最终谁会赢，但我们已经听到关于比特币即将再次分叉的讨论，因为两个阵营意见不合，而这一点我早在最初的比特币现金分叉时就预测过了。
And I'm not sure who's gonna win yet, but we're already hearing talks of yet another hard fork in Bitcoin with two camps that don't agree, which I'd also predicted back in the original, like, Bitcoin Cash fork.
你知道，我早就看到那些反对分叉的阵营内部其实也存在分歧。
You know, I saw that the camps that did not want to fork already disagreed with each other.
嗯。
Mhmm.
对吧？
Right?
但至少他们在与比特币现金不同的立场上。
But they just happened to be at least on a different side than Bitcoin Cash.
是的。
Yeah.
我的意思是，有太多事情在发生，需要思考的东西太多了。
I mean, so much going on, so much to think about.
而且，你知道，我觉得听我说。
And, you know, I think listen.
你知道，加密货币在不断发展。
You know, crypto evolves.
它确实如此。
It has.
我认为最终一切都会好起来的。
I think it'll be okay at the end of the day.
但总是好的，
And but it's always good to,
是的，
like yeah.
我的意思是，我们都同意这一点。
Mean, we both agree on that.
而且无论如何，讨论这些、了解这些、提高大家的认知总是好的。
And and regardless, it's always good to talk about this, and hear about this, and just bring awareness.
比如，嘿，朋友们，知道吗？有很多事情在发生，我们喜欢紧跟动态。
Like, hey, guys, know, there's a lot of stuff going on, and we love to stay in the loop on it.
但说到Edge钱包，它在这个格局中处于什么位置？
But when it comes to Edge Wallet here, where does Edge Wallet fit into the picture?
你们在Edge钱包上正在做些什么？
And and what are you working on at Edge Wallet?
是的。
Yeah.
所以讽刺的是，我不想说‘做我所说的，而不是我所做的’。
So ironically, I don't wanna say, do do I do as I say, not as I do.
对吧？
Right?
所以Edge在2018年转型了。
And so Edge Edge pivoted in 2018.
实际上，这家公司叫AirBits Inc。
Well, the company is is actually AirBits Inc.
对吧？
Right?
这是我们2014年和最初的联合创始人一起创立的公司，现在一半的创始成员还在。
That is the company that we founded in 2014 with, you know, my original cofounders, you know, and half of us are still here.
但那时我们专注于比特币支付的实用性。
But that was focused on utility of Bitcoin payments.
当我们意识到比特币在这方面并没有被广泛采用，而像以太坊这样的区块链却有非常吸引人的应用场景时，我们就转型成了一个交易应用。
And when we, a, realized that that wasn't really getting broadly adopted for Bitcoin and that, you know, chains like Ethereum had a really compelling use case, we pivoted to becoming a trading app.
你仍然可以用Edge付款。
You could still pay with Edge.
对吧？
Right?
那就是Edge推出的时机。
And that's when Edge launched.
抱歉。
Sorry.
2018年，我们推出了Edge。
2018, we launched Edge.
因此，我们的重点一直是做一个面向用户的交易应用，尽管这并不是我真正希望看到的加密货币用途。
And so our focus has been being more of a trading app for people, which admittedly is not the utility that I necessarily want to see.
对吧？
Right?
但我知道，这确实是当前加密货币的主要用途。
But I know that that's the utility of crypto today.
对吧？
Right?
所以我们现在专注于什么？
So what are we focused on?
好吧，我们内心深处其实都知道，尽管交易是加密货币今天的用途，但我们仍会支持那些为未来带来真正价值的项目，也就是隐私项目。
Well, there's like that inherent nugget inside of us that even though trading is the utility of crypto today, we're gonna support the projects that bring the true utility for the future, which are the privacy projects.
因此，我们长期以来一直是为多种隐私链提供支持的多资产钱包之一。
So we've long been one of the only multi asset coin wallets to support a myriad of privacy chains.
嗯。
Mhmm.
早在2018年，我们就成为首个支持门罗币的多资产应用，那时候如果你想获得门罗币支持，唯一的方式就是从GitHub下载、安装并自己搭建门罗币应用。
And so we were the first multi asset app to support Monero back in 2018, you know, when the only way you could get Monero support is, you know, downloading and selling and building your own Monero app from GitHub.
是的。
Yeah.
如果App Store里有应用支持门罗币，那它也只支持门罗币，别的都不行。
If there was one in the App Store, it only supported Monero, nothing else.
那时候没有任何生物识别功能，没有兑换，什么都没有。
There was no bi functionality, no swap, no nothing.
只是最基础的、仅支持Monero的功能。
It was just bare bones Monero only.
但我们上线时就支持了Monero、Ethereum、Bitcoin、Litecoin，你想得到的，XRP等等，还能在它们之间互相兑换。
But we launched it with support for Monero, Ethereum, Bitcoin, Litecoin, you name it, XRP, blah blah blah, and swapping between all of them.
后来我与祖科和他的团队紧密合作，当时他还在原始的ECC Zcash公司，目的是把Zcash集成进来，而不仅仅是为了让你能交易它。
And then we I've worked closely with Zuko and his team back when he was still with the original ECC Zcash company to get Zcash in, and not just to get Zcash in so you could trade it.
因为如果我们只是想要这个功能，我们确实可以，毕竟我们是个交易应用。
Because if we wanted that, well, we did because we're a trading app.
但我的原则——我说过，原则到有点固执——是我想让它以完全隐私模式运行，因为这才是Zcash的承诺。
But, you know, the principle in me, like I said, principle to a fault, is that I wanted it in full privacy mode because that was the promise of Zcash.
所以我们推迟了Zcash的集成，直到2021年，或者2022年初。
So we held off on Zcash integration until, I think, 2021, early twenty twenty two.
那段时间我们一直在和祖科的团队合作开发软件，以便在移动钱包中支持完整的隐私模式。
That whole time working on the software with Zuco's team so that we can support full privacy mode on a mobile wallet.
然后我们发布了这个功能。
And then we launched that.
我认为我们是最早支持Zcash完全隐私模式的两个项目之一。
I think we're one of the first two to support Zcash in full private mode.
从那以后，我们还加入了Pyre Chain，我非常看好他们。
And then we've added since then, Pyre Chain, I'm a big fan of them.
对吧？
Right?
它是Zcash的一个分叉，但移除了透明性。
A fork of Zcash, but removing the transparency.
在这一方面，我们还支持Zano，它由Monero原始代码的开发者团队创建。
And so things that we've done along that side, we support Zano, which is by the original developers of the of the initial code of Monero.
让你能够支持私有代币。
Let's you support private tokens.
因此你可以在Zeno区块链上发送私有版本的比特币，成本极低、速度极快，且完全私密。
And so you can send a private version of Bitcoin on the Zeno blockchain, super cheap and fast and fully private.
是的。
Yeah.
这些就是我们正在做的事情。
Like, those are the things that we're working on.
你知道，我们其实还没有公开宣布过，但我们正在为Edge开发一层IP地址级别的隐私保护功能。
We were, you know, we haven't really announced this publicly, you know, but we're working on a layer to give IP address level privacy inside of Edge.
对。
Yep.
类似于Tor，但比Tor更好。
Similar to Tor, but better than Tor.
不幸的是，它比Tor更慢，但据我们所知，它不像Tor那样被政府操控，因为运行这些节点实际上有经济激励和要求。
Unfortunately, it's also slower than Tor, you know, but this one isn't, to the best of our knowledge, not co opted by the government the way that but the way Tor is, because it actually has a financial incentive and requirement for people to run these nodes.
既然这是加密货币入门知识，那这到底意味着什么？比如，Tor是什么？
Since this is crypto one zero one, what does this even mean, like, you know, Tor?
对于那些听众来说，Tor是一个全球计算机网络，最初由美国政府发起，让你的互联网流量在不同服务器之间中继，从而无法追踪到原始发送者。
For those, you know, listeners, TOR is a network of computers around the world that was actually launched by the US government so that you can send Internet traffic that gets bounced between different servers, and so you can't tell who originally sent it.
对吧？
Right?
比如，接收服务器无法知道是谁发送的，这些节点也无法知道，只要数据在不同的人之间中继即可。
Like, the recipient server can't tell who sent it and neither can these nodes, so long as it hops between actually different people.
但这些节点中的许多可能由同一个实体运行，比如中情局。
But those nodes could a lot of them could be run by the same entity, such as the CIA.
Tor网络允许你假装运行了大量节点，即使实际上只有一台电脑。
And the Tor network allows you to pretend you're running a bunch of nodes even if it's just one computer.
明白吗？
Alright?
而这个混合网络在这方面有所改进。
And so this mix nets improve on that.
这也是我们考虑集成Edge的地方。
That's where we're looking at integrating an edge as well.
所以，是的。
So, yeah.
隐私，它带来了实用性，一直是我们关注的重点。
Privacy, which begets utility, has has been our focus.
这是我对你问题的长篇大论、超过五分钟的回答。
That's my long winded five plus minute answer to your question.
不。
No.
我觉得这很好。
I I think it's good.
而且隐私一直在上升。
And privacy has been on the up and up.
我的意思是，你看看过去至少六个月，甚至更久，隐私都在持续提升。
I mean, you look at the last, I'd say at least six months, if not longer than that, it's been on the up and up.
隐私一直表现得非常好。
Privacy has been doing really well.
我认为部分原因在于从监管的角度来看待它。
I think part of it is just looking at it from a regulatory standpoint.
人们说，这些东西并不是简单地被直接列入黑名单，未来会对加密货币采取更友好的立场，拥有隐私并没有什么不好。
People are saying, hey, this stuff isn't getting just face value blacklisted, and there's going to be more crypto friendly stance towards this, and it's okay having privacy, and it's not all bad.
这就是我看到的最大的普遍误解。
Like, that's the big common misconception that I see.
人们总觉得只有坏处。
It's only ever bad things.
只涉及非法用途。
It's only illegal purposes.
只涉及这样那样的问题。
It's only this and that.
其实，你不妨做点研究，看看加密货币中非法洗钱的金额有多少，然后再对比一下美元或游艇中涉及的金额。
And it's like, all right, well, do a little study, see how much is illegally laundered in crypto, and then go and compare that to how much is being done in the US dollar or another yacht.
根本没法比。
And it's like, not even close.
根本没法比。
Not even close.
根本没法比。
Not even close.
我的意思是，我以前确实站在那边，因为我经常听到这个论点，所以我把它记在备忘录里，随时能脱口而出。
I mean, it's a I I used to have the number on my side, because I used to hear that argument so much, and I would just have it as like a notepad, so I could just spit the number out.
但我现在已经不再保留那些数据了，我转向了别的方向，但事实确实如此。
But I've since gotten rid of it, I've moved on away from the But it's true.
所以当我们回到Edge钱包时，你们说，嘿。
And so when we're going back to edge wallet, you know, you guys are are saying, hey.
我们希望支持隐私。
You know, we wanna support privacy.
我们希望成为一道屏障。
We wanna be a wall.
我们希望成为一个让人们能够以多链方式交易的地方。
We wanna be a place for people to be able to transact there in a multichain way.
对吧？
Right?
嗯嗯。
Mhmm.
没错。
Exactly.
而且，我们知道不能简单地停止支持透明链，比如比特币L1之类的。
And, you know, we realize that we can't, like, just stop supporting the transparent chains, you know, like Bitcoin l one and whatnot.
但支持隐私链是一个差异化优势，因为首先，它们更难支持。
But supporting the privacy chains is a differentiator because number one, they're harder to support.
所以人们并不知道，我们不只是随便加进Monero、Zcash、Pirate Chain和Zano，就像我们本可以加入SUI、Solana、以太坊和下一个以太坊L2，比如Optimism、ZK Sync之类的。
So people don't realize that we don't just throw in Monero and Zcash, Pirate Chain and Zano, like we could, you know, SUI and Solana, Ethereum, and the next Ethereum l two, Optimism, ZK Sync and whatnot.
那些都是我所说的简单标准代码，你可以轻松集成，有时候甚至只需要改一个配置文件，根本不用写任何新代码。
Those are what I call, like, simple standard code that you can integrate or sometimes it's just as simple as a config file, you don't even have to add any code.
隐私链很难。
The privacy chains are hard.
它们采用了非常复杂的密码学。
They employ very hard cryptography.
这些加密算法是用我所说的底层语言编写的，直接操作硬件，因为它们运行缓慢，所以必须用执行速度极快的语言来实现。
That cryptography is written in what I call like very low level languages, to the metal, because they're slow, so you have to write them in a language that runs very fast.
它们通常不会用你开发应用程序时所用的语言来编写。
They don't typically run-in the same language that you write your application in.
所以对于那些刚接触加密技术的开发者来说，很多人用 JavaScript、Swift（用于 iOS）或 Kotlin（用于 Android）来写应用。
So for you crypto one zero one developers out there, a lot of people write apps in JavaScript or Swift for iOS, know, Kotlin for Android.
但加密库并不是用这些语言编写的，因此你必须处理不同语言之间的通信问题。
Well, cryptography libraries aren't written in those languages, So you have to deal with talking from one language to another.
所以它们很难。
So they're hard.
是的。
Yeah.
但这正是我们的独特优势。
But it is a differentiator for for us.
从第一天起，这一直是我们用户群体的核心。
And that has been our user base since day one.
我们已经长期倡导隐私保护。
We've preached privacy for quite some time.
因此，用户正是为此而寻找我们。
And so that's what they look for.
这正是他们所期望的。
That's what they want.
而这同样也是我们所追求的。
And that's what we want as well.
我们希望以此方式进行交易。
Like, we wanna transact with that.
因此，我们投入了大量努力。
And so hence, you know, we put it we put in the effort.
你能谈谈 Edge 钱包的设置、恢复和托管方面吗？
Can you talk about the setup, recovery, and custody side of Edge Wallet?
因为我认为整个流程的每一个环节都非常独特。
Because I think that's all I mean, all all parts of that process are really unique.
这使得它与人们听到‘钱包’这个词时通常所想的有些不同。
Makes it a little bit different from what I think people are used to when they hear the term wallet.
你说得真有趣，因为你说得对。
So it's funny you say that because you're right.
如果你是加密货币用户，它确实和你平时熟悉的不一样。
It's different than what people are used to if you're a crypto person.
是的。
Yeah.
如果你不是加密货币用户，它实际上才是你平时正常使用的样子。
If you're not a crypto person, it's actually what you're It's used actually normal.
对吧？
Right?
它实际上感觉起来，我称之为90%正常。
It actually feels, I call it 90% normal.
是的。
Yeah.
因此，我们的目标是打造一款由密码朋克开发、但适用于所有人的产品。
And so that has been our goal is we wanna, you know, built by Cypherpunks, but for everyone else.
是的。
Yeah.
对吧？
Right?
所以，现在使用 Edge 的注册体验，我们称之为 Web 2.0 风格。
So the the onboarding into Edge feels like now we call it web two.
有点像 Web 2.0 的流程，但不需要邮箱。
Kinda feels like a web two process except that there's no no email.
传统的基于云的应用在创建账户时，都会要求你提供邮箱、登录凭证，也就是邮箱和密码，他们会看到你的邮箱。
The the traditional, like, cloud based app that you will create an account on asks you for an email, login credentials, you know, email and password, and they see your email.
对吧？
Right?
所以他们知道你是谁，并且能访问你账户里的所有内容。
So they know who you are, and they have access to everything inside of that account.
所以当你在谷歌、Facebook或Twitter上创建账户时。
So when you create an account in Google, on Facebook, on Twitter.
对吧？
Right?
他们知道你的邮箱，并且能看到你账户的全部信息。
They know your email, and they see everything about your account.
在Edge中，你只需创建一个用户名，而且连Edge都看不到它。
In Edge, you create just a username and that is not even seen by Edge.
对吧？
Right?
它在某种程度上是加密的，被进行了哈希处理。
That is kind of encrypted in a way it's hashed.
所以我们只看到一串乱七八糟的字母和数字。
So only we just see a jumble of letters and numbers.
我们看不到你实际选择的用户名。
We don't see the actual username you chose.
密码也是同样的道理。
Same thing with the password.
它在客户端进行哈希处理。
It's hash client side.
我们看不到原始密码。
We don't see the original.
大多数服务实际上都能看到你输入的原始密码。
Most services actually do see the original password you typed in.
它们只是在存储之前对其进行加密。
They just then encrypt it before they store it.
我们甚至看不到你输入的原始密码。
We don't even see the original password you type in.
然后，这两者的组合会加密你真正的私钥以及应用中的所有数据。
And then the combination of both of those, you know, encrypt your actual real private keys and all the data in the app.
应用中的所有数据都是加密的。
All the data in the app is encrypted.
所以要知道，Edge 不会看到你通常在应用内看到的任何内容。
So know that Edge doesn't see anything that, you know, you would normally see inside of the app.
甚至连你的设置都不会。
Like, even your settings.
比如，应用中的一个基本设置是，你使用哪种法定货币？
Like, say, one of the settings in the app what's a basic setting you would have in the app is, oh, what what fiat currency do I use?
嗯。
Mhmm.
对吧？
Right?
比如，我想把所有内容都设为美元或加元。
Like, I wanna make everything the dollars or Canadian dollar.
这个设置会被加密，存储在我们的服务器上，并在你的设备之间同步。
That setting is encrypted and backed up under our servers and then synchronized between your devices.
我们不知道这个设置是什么。
We don't know what that setting is.
你还可以为交易添加标签，比如，我转了一笔钱给 Crypto 101 播客。
You can also tag transactions, like, alright, I sent, you know, I sent some money over to Crypto one zero one podcast.
我会给它打上标签。
I'll tag it.
这些信息是加密并备份的。
That's encrypted, backed up.
Edge 永远看不到这些内容。
Edge never sees it.
是的。
Yeah.
你可以用通讯录里的地址来填写。
You can fill it in with your address book.
很多人会问，为什么 Edge 要请求访问我的通讯录？
A lot of people say, why why is Edge asking for access to my address book?
这个我完全理解。
And that is easily I get it.
比如，当一个应用请求访问你的通讯录时，你不应该感到担忧。
Like, you shouldn't be concerned when an app asks you for access to your address book.
但我们是开源的，以证明当我们这样做时，只是为了给你提供一点自动补全功能。
But we're open source to prove that when we do, that's just to give you a little autocomplete.
比如，当你点击收款人时，我之前给谁转过钱？或者谁给我转过钱？
Like, when you tap payee, like, who did I send money to or who did who sent me money?
它会显示你的通讯录，你可以搜索通讯录里认识的人。
It'll show your address book and you search through people you know in your address book.
你选择一个人，它就会打上标签，这些信息会在你的设备上加密，被备份并同步，但Edge永远不会看到它们。
You choose someone, it tags it, that's encrypted on your device, it's backed up, it's synchronized, but Edge never sees it.
我们永远不会看到你的通讯录。
We never see your address book.
这些信息纯粹只存在于你的设备上。
It's literally only on your device.
这就是引导流程。
So that is the onboarding.
对吧？
Right?
感觉就像一个网页2.0的注册流程。
It's just feels like a web two onboarding.
所有内容都经过加密并备份。
Everything is encrypted backed up.
如果你丢了手机。
You lose your phone.
你可以用另一台设备登录。
You can go log in on another device.
你甚至可以设置密码恢复，通过几个个人问题和答案，而我们也看不到这些信息。
You can even set a password recovery with a couple personal questions and answers, which we also don't see.
这些信息都是加密的。
Those are encrypted.
双因素认证，一键开启，为你的账户提供额外保护。
Two factor authentication, enable that at the touch of a button that extra protects your account.
所以它看起来像是一个托管钱包账户，但实际上并不是。
So it does feel like a custodial wallet account, but it's absolutely not.
你完全掌控着这些密钥。
Like, you have control over those keys.
密钥就在你的设备上，即使我们公司倒闭了也没关系。
They the keys are on your device, we can go out of business.
只要你登录了Edge应用，就可以通过生物识别或密码解密手机上的密钥，从而发送资金；或者你直接导出密钥，导入到其他钱包应用中。
And so long as you have Edge logged in, You could still access your keys biometric or password can decrypt the keys on your phone and be able to send out funds or you just take the keys off, put it into another another wallet app.
请注意，我们是你的备份。
Note that we are your backup though.
是的。
Yeah.
所以你是主要的，而Edge是你的备份。
So you are the primary and Edge is your backup.
对。
Yeah.
你不可能两者都丢失。
You can't lose both.
对吧？
Right?
所以如果我们消失了，只要你还有那台登录了Edge的设备。
So if we disappeared, as long as you've got that device with Edge logged in.
但如果你没有正在使用Edge登录，只是至少在某个设备上登录过。
But if you don't actively have Edge logged in, not logged in, but you've at least logged in on a device.
对吧？
Right?
如果你的手机上没有正在运行Edge，也没有登录过你的账户，是的。
If you don't actively have Edge on your phone with your account that you've logged into at least once Yeah.
那么你就依赖我们了。
Then you're relying on us.
是的。
Yeah.
好吧？
Alright?
有些人说我们在这种意义上是托管的。
And some people say that we're custody in that sense.
不。
No.
我们只是备份。
We're backup.
就像你放在某处的那份纸质备份一样。
Just like like that piece of paper backup that you have somewhere.
如果你丢了你的宝藏，那份纸就是你的备份。
If you lose your treasure, that paper's your backup.
是的。
Yeah.
嗯，我们也是备份。
Well, we're the backup as well.
所以，如果你是 Edge 用户，一定要在手机上安装 Edge，并至少登录过一次你的账户，而且你永远不要依赖我们。
So, if you're an Edge user, always have Edge installed on your phone and have your account logged in at least once, And you don't you don't ever rely on us.
我觉得胁迫模式也很酷。
And I thought the duress mode was pretty cool as well.
这一点让我印象深刻。
That was something that stood out to me.
我简单问一下，你能给我们讲讲这个功能吗？
I I guess real quick, you know, walk us through that.
我觉得每个人都应该了解一下。
I think everyone deserves to hear about it.
一个很酷的小功能，没错。
A nice little cool Yeah.
我认为这是每个加密应用都应该具备的最重要功能之一，无论它是托管型、钱包型还是其他类型。
And I think it's one of the most important features that I think every crypto app should have, whether it be custodial, wallet, or whatnot.
实现方式可以不同，但我们的胁迫模式允许你设置第二个 PIN 码来解锁账户。
And how you implement it can be different, but our implementation of Duress allows you to set up a second PIN that you can use to unlock your account.
通常情况下，你可以使用密码、PIN码或生物识别方式解锁你已经登录的账户。
So, like, normally, you can unlock your account that you've already logged into with your password, PIN, or biometric.
这允许你设置第二个PIN码，输入后可以解锁一个子账户。
This allows you to have a second PIN that when you enter it, unlocks a a subaccount.
我们称之为子账户。
Let's call it a subaccount.
这个子账户可以包含真实的钱包、真实的密钥和真实的钱款。
And that subaccount can have real wallets with real keys and real money in it.
但理想情况下，这可以是你用于日常小额消费的资金，而不是你存在Edge里的大额资金。
But ideally, that could be your kind of small spending money, not your larger funds that you would hold an edge.
你在该胁迫子账户中创建的钱包实际上也会显示在你的主账户中。
The wallets that you create in that duress subaccount actually show up in your main account.
因此，如果你愿意，你仍然可以从主账户进行常规操作，比如使用加密货币消费——我鼓励大家实际使用加密货币。
So you can do your regular, you know, activity from your main account if you wanted to, like spend, you know, crypto, which I encourage people to actually use crypto.
去找找你附近接受加密货币的商家，然后去消费吧。
Go find merchants in your neighborhood that take crypto and go and spend with them.
如果你遇到胁迫情况，比如有人强迫你解锁账户，你输入胁迫密码，显示的就只是你的小额消费钱包。
And then if you're ever under duress, which is someone's wanting you, forcing you to unlock your account, you enter your duress pin, and what shows up is just your little spending wallet.
它看起来像是一个真正的钱包，因为它确实有真实的交易从中发生。
And it looks like a real wallet because it actually has real spends coming from it.
对吧？
Right?
但你的大额资金至少被隐藏起来了。
But your larger funds are at least hidden.
是的。
Yeah.
所以，我坦白说吧。
And so, know, I'll be just honest.
这并不能保护你免受身体攻击。
This doesn't protect you from physical attacks.
如果有人想伤害你，他们确实可以伤害你。
If someone want to hurt you, they can hurt you.
但它至少可以保护你的资金。
But it can protect your funds, at least.
它还为你提供了合理的否认理由，比如‘我在Edge里就只有这些钱。’
And it gives you a plausible deniability that, hey, that's all I hold inside Edge.
这些小额资金就是我所有的资产。
Like, these little funds are all I hold.
对很多人来说，现实中他们在手机应用里持有的资金可能真的就这么多。
You know, for a lot of people that might realistically be the most that they would hold in in a mobile app.
但对于那些担心在手机应用里存放大量资金的人来说，是的。
But for those that were concerned about so for some people holding a large amount of funds in a mobile app Yeah.
他们担心的正是这种身体上的威胁。
Their concern was exactly this, the physical threat.
是的。
Yeah.
对吧？
Right?
而现在，这种物理威胁可以通过胁迫模式得到缓解。
And now that physical threat is mitigated with the duress mode.
对吧？
Right?
所以，至少人们可能还有其他感到不安的原因。
So at least there's may be other reasons why people feel uncomfortable.
这种物理威胁可以通过这个功能得到部分缓解。
At the physical threat can be partially mitigated with this this feature.
当然。
Absolutely.
保罗，非常感谢你抽出时间，和我们讨论市场以及一切，尤其是你在 Edge Wallet 做的工作。
Well, Paul, we really appreciate your time, and just getting to talk about the markets and everything, and especially what you're doing at Edge Wallet.
再次强调，非常棒的内容，对钱包的见解也很独特，你说得很有道理。
Again, really cool stuff, really cool take on wallets, which is, again, you make a good point.
在加密货币领域可能不同，但如果你从传统金融的角度来看，这其实是正常的。
It's different in the crypto sense, but it's normal if you're coming from a more traditional sense.
所以，如果你是那些对加密货币还比较新、想找一些更传统方案的人，一定要去了解一下保罗和Edge Wallet。
So if you are one of those, you know, people who's maybe a little bit newer to crypto, and you are looking for something a little bit more traditional, definitely go ahead and give Paul and Edge Wallet a check out.
保罗，大家在哪里能找到你？
Paul, where can everyone find you?
他们想了解，想找到Edge Wallet，也想关注你正在做的事情。
You know, they wanna go, they wanna find Edge Wallet, they wanna follow what you're doing as well.
他们可以在哪里找到你们的网站、社交媒体，或者你偏好的任何渠道？
Where can they find websites, socials, whatever you prefer?
他们可以在我们的网站edge.app上找到所有信息。
They can find everything on our website, edge.app.
明白吗？
Alright?
我们有一个简单、优雅、清晰的域名：edge.app。
So we've got a simple, nice, clean domain, edge.app.
我们的社交媒体链接都可以在那里找到。
You'll find our socials on there.
你甚至可以在那里找到我的联系方式和社交媒体账号。
You'll even find my contact information on there, my socials.
现在你可能还看不到的一点是，更直接的问题是：你在哪里能找到我们？
One thing you might not see on there right now, which is a more immediate, you know, where can you find us?
我不确定这段视频什么时候会发布，我们现在是不是在直播。
I'm not sure when this is gonna air if we're live right now.
但我们从明天开始就会去Monerotopia，今天是10号，明天就是11号了？
But we are gonna be over at Monerotopia starting literally tomorrow, which is the eleventh today's the tenth?
是的。
Yeah.
总之，
Anyway,
这个分享肯定会在之后发布。
they This share will definitely be out after.
之后。
Afterwards.
好的。
Okay.
所以，不管怎样，这是我们之前提到的地方，如果你现在才看到这段视频的话。
So anyway, here's where we were, if this is catching you guys late.
Minerotopia活动在2月13日至14日，然后Anarcopulco活动从15日持续到大约20日，好吧。
Minerotopia from February 1314, and then Anarcopulco the fifteenth through, I think, about the twentieth Okay.
二月份。
Of February.
如果这段视频在活动期间播出，你可以在那里找到我们。
If you if this happens to air in the middle of that, you can catch us there.
这些活动都在墨西哥。
It's all in Mexico.
Minerotopia在墨西哥城，Anarcopulco在巴亚尔塔港。
Mexico City for Minerotopia, Puerto Vallarta for Anarcopulco.
如果你去不了，也许可以明年尝试参加这些活动。
If you can't make it, maybe try try to catch those events next year.
对于许多热爱隐私和自由的加密货币粉丝来说，这是一系列很棒的活动。
It's a great set of events for a lot of the privacy, freedom loving crypto fans.
明白了吗？
Alright?
在安纳科普尔科，他们讨论的话题非常广泛，但加密货币也是讨论的一大重点。
They talk about a whole lot of things in in, Anarkapulco, but crypto is a big topic of discussion as well.
所以，如果你能及时听到消息，就在这些活动中的一些场次来找我们吧。
So catch us at some of those events if, you're able to hear about it soon enough.
当然。
For sure.
好的，保罗，再次感谢你加入我们，我们非常感谢你抽出时间。
Well, Paul, thank you once again for joining us, and we appreciate your time.
哦，非常感谢你们的邀请。
Oh, thanks a whole lot for having me.
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