第709期：深入探讨Canton网络：金融区块链的未来

欢迎收听由Gemini出品的加密货币101播客，这里是通往未来货币的桥梁。

Welcome to the Crypto one zero one Podcast presented by Gemini, your bridge to the future of money.

好了，各位。

Alright, everyone.

欢迎回到另一期加密货币101播客。

Welcome back to another episode of the Crypto one zero one podcast.

希望大家都过得不错。

We hope everyone's doing well.

无论你身处世界哪个角落，你都来对地方了。

No matter where you are in the world, you're certainly in the right place.

今天我们为大家准备了又一集非常精彩的节目。

We've got another really exciting episode in store for all of you.

最近，我们有幸采访了加密行业各个领域的多位领袖，深入了解了当前正在发生的事情，以及为何这些重大变动正在发生，还有大型加密资产的动态。

Now, as of lately, we've gotten to talk to all different leaders in the industries across all of crypto and get a little bit of an insight as to what's happening and why these big moves are going on and what's going on with the large caps.

但今天，我们邀请了一位对相对较新的加密项目有更深入见解的嘉宾，这个项目正在席卷加密世界，并且在当前加密市场经历动荡和起伏之际，依然表现得非常稳健——我相信你们中的许多人也正在目睹和经历这一切。

But today, we're bringing in someone who has a little bit more insight into a relatively newer crypto project, one that is taking the crypto space by storm, and it's actually holding up really well here as the crypto market's going through some bumpy and turbulent time, as I'm sure a lot of you are seeing and experiencing.

我们想更多地聊聊这个新项目，因此我们邀请了马克·温德兰。

We want to talk about this new project a little bit more, and so we've brought in Mark Wendland.

他是Theramune的首席执行官。

He's the CEO of Theramune.

马克，很高兴你来参加，欢迎来到节目。

Mark, good to have you, and welcome to the show.

谢谢你，布伦丹。

Thank you, Brendan.

很高兴能来到这里。

Great to be here.

是的，非常期待和你交谈。

Yeah, excited to talk to you.

那么，我们直接开门见山吧。

So, let's go ahead and spoil it here.

我们不会让你干等着。

We're not gonna hold you captive.

但我们想稍微聊聊Canton，它的股票代码是CC，给那些一直关注它的人。

But we wanna talk a little bit about Canton, ticker symbol CC for those of you who have been following it.

我们已经在一些私人社群里，比如Crypt Nation，讨论过它了，所以你们可能已经听说过，但我们想再深入一点。

We've been talking about it inside some of our personal communities like Crypt Nation and things over there, and so this might be one that you're aware of, but we wanna dial in a little bit more.

Mark，你多年来一直从事回购和国债业务，比如在Citadel和DRW这样的公司里深度参与。

Now, Mark, you spent years doing, I mean, you were deep in repo and treasury operations at firms like Citadel and DRW.

你拥有非常丰富的背景。

You know, you have this extensive background.

而我们注意到Canton的一个特点是，它已经引起了各大公司的关注，并获得了强有力的支持。

And one of the things that we've noticed about Canton specifically here is that it has been catching the attention of major firms, just drawing major support.

我们看到的一些名字包括摩根大通、DTCC、纽约梅隆银行和花旗银行。

Some of the names that we've seen out there are JPMorgan, DTCC, BNY Mellon, Citibank.

我相信还有其他一些我可能漏掉的公司。

I'm sure there's others that I'm missing out there.

是什么让你对Canton如此感兴趣？

What got you so interested in Canton?

是的

Yeah.

所以，我想你可以称我为金融管道工。

So I mean, I guess you could call me a financial plumber.

我花了多年时间研究金融市场运作及其背后结构这种看似吸引人的领域。

I spent years in in kind of the sexy business of how our our markets work and and the structure behind it.

因此，如果你看看 Treasury 运营，核心问题是如何构建可扩展、能应对市场流量的冗余系统。

And so I think if you look at treasury operations, it's how do you build redundant systems that scale and can handle the flow that the markets demand.

因此，我花了很多时间参与创新和不同结构的设计，这些是 Citadel 和 DRW 长期开发的成果。

And so it was lots of time working through innovation and and different structures that that Citadel DRW spent a long time developing.

但核心在于，如何构建可扩展的系统，确保合规性，并在压力下不崩溃。

But it's how do you the core was how do you build systems at scale, your compliance, and don't break under stress.

市场显然具有波动性，正如我们现在看到的，你必须确保你的基础设施能够经受住时间的考验。

Markets are obviously volatile as we see even now, and you want to make sure that your infrastructure kind of can stand that test of time.

这未必是最吸引人的行业，但理解这一点至关重要。

It's not always the most sexy business, but it's important to understand that.

因此，回购市场就是一个例子。

And so repo was an example of that.

这是一个非常庞大的市场，仅美国国债发行量就超过30万亿美元。

It's it's kind of very large market, you know, 30 plus trillion just in US treasury issuance alone.

同时，美国联邦储备系统也将其作为货币政策的一部分。

And it is also used as part of monetary policy by US Fed as well.

因此，理解这个市场的运作方式，并建立能够适应如此规模市场的系统非常重要。

And so I think it's important to, you know, understand how that market works and have systems, etcetera, that that scale with a market that size.

所以，我想这就是我的背景。

And so I think that's, you know, my background.

我一直以来的热情就在于如何构建可扩展的系统，如何以最高效、最具成本效益的方式运作，降低融资成本，从而减少摩擦，最终让使用者受益——无论市场中的最终用户是散户、机构还是其他主体。

That's what my passion has been about is how do you build scale, how do you, you know, do things the most efficient way, cost effective, and reduce fund funding costs or financing costs so that friction ultimately benefits the users and ultimately, depending on the market, the end user, whether it be retail, institution, etcetera, as well.

所以

So

据我了解，Theramune 是第一家公开上市并利用支持建立围绕Canton的财资体系的公司。

from my understanding, Theramune is the first publicly traded company to leverage support and kinda create a treasury around Canton.

对吗？

Is that correct?

是的。

Yes.

对。

Yeah.

Theramune 是一家旨在加速并实现 Canton 生态系统价值化的上市公司。

Theramune is a public company built to accelerate and monetize the Canton ecosystem.

所以它是一个数字资产库，通常意义上的债务，但我们不仅仅做资本募集、买入代币、出售股份这类事情——那只是我们业务模式的一个组成部分，而不是全部。

So it's a digital asset treasury, a debt, as often commonly used, but we're not just doing the the capital raise, buy coin, sell shares that kind of that's not the only business model we have that is a feature that we do, but it's not the only.

我认为，这正是你正在看到的、许多债务项目表现疲软背后的关键差异点。

And I think that's a differentiating factor that you're seeing play out by a lot of the weakness from from debts that are out there.

那些能够明确自身为股东创造价值方式的公司，在未来至关重要。

Those that can differentiate themselves and how they add value to shareholders is critically important in in the future.

所以我们正在做的一些事情，比如我认为上周或前周，我们成为了超级验证节点，这使我们能够为投资者提升收益。

So we're doing things like I think it was last week or the week before, we became a super validator, which allows us to increase, you know, yield for our investors.

我们有广泛的使命来推动生态系统的发展。

And we have a broad mandate to grow the ecosystem.

所以这不仅仅是关于资本市场，还包括开发应用、通过合作伙伴关系促进网络增长。

So it's not just, again, about capital markets, but building apps, helping grow the network through partnerships and relationships.

鉴于我的背景以及我们的一些其他合作伙伴，比如马克·图米等人，我们可以利用过去的经验来建立关系和合作伙伴关系，进而在此基础上发展。

Given, you know, my background and some of our other partners that I have, Mark Toomey, etcetera, where we're able to use our use case in our prior life to help then forge relationships and partnerships to then build on top of.

显然，Canton 是我们在 Theramune 所做工作的核心。

And obviously, Canton's at the forefront of what we're doing here at Theramune.

你刚刚回答了我们私下里一直在讨论的问题。

You just answered a question that we've been talking about behind the scenes over here.

我们一直在争论，是念 Canton 还是 Canton？

We're like, is it pronounced Canton or is it Canton?

我们来回讨论，觉得可能是这个读法。

And we've gone back and forth and we're like, I think it's this.

后来我们对这个名字做了一些研究，发现哦，也许应该是那个读法。

And then we did some research behind the name, we're like, oh, well, maybe it's that.

所以是Canton。

So it's Canton.

是的，就是这样。

Is that Yeah.

这可以追溯到瑞士及其各州，每个Canton都有独特的网络，就像那样，但它们整体上又联合在一起。

It goes back to the Switzerland and the provinces about their each kind of Canton has has a unique, you know, network kind of like that, but they're all together as a whole.

类似于美国有许多不同的州。

Similar to, I guess, The United States has many different states.

我们都是联邦政府的一部分。

We're all part of the federal government.

我认为它们都是互操作的。

And I think it's all interoperable.

因此，这就是Canton被选为这个名字的原因。

And so that was kind of the play in why Canton was was chosen for the name there.

完全说得通。

Makes total sense.

完全说得通。

Makes total sense.

那我们直接进入核心部分吧。

So let's get right into the core.

你知道，Canton 是什么？

You know, what is Canton?

你知道，这是一个较新的项目。

You know, it's this newer project.

它迅速走红了。

It's blown up.

是的。

Yeah.

我记得上一次查看时，它的市值大约在500万到600万美元左右。

I think last time I checked, it was around, like, a 5 to 6,000,000 and or billion in market cap.

我现在觉得它的市值大约是60亿美元。

I think right now, it's around 6,000,000,000 in market cap.

所以它是在去年年底推出的，自那以来表现相当不错。

And so it launched here, you know, towards the end of last year, and it's done pretty well since.

它已经引起了众多人的关注。

It's come onto a lot of people's radar.

你能给那些新听众，不太熟悉的人解释一下，Canton 是什么？为什么人们应该关注它？

Can you just explain to the new listeners out there, people who aren't as familiar, what is Canton, and why should people be paying attention to it?

是的。

Yeah.

它是一个公共区块链，专为真实金融市场设计。

So So it's it's a public blockchain, a one that's designed for real financial markets.

它的重点是试图改造我们的传统市场，并将它们迁移到区块链技术上。

And so its focus is trying to transform our traditional markets and move them on to blockchain technology.

因此，剥离加密货币和科技，将底层的公共区块链——那些金融基础设施——应用到我们的金融市场之上。

And so stripping apart crypto and technology, the underlying public blockchain, those financial rails, moving that on top of our financial markets.

这就是 Canton 的核心目标。

That's the focus of of Canton.

它是由数字资产公司创建的，我认为他们不久前还作为嘉宾出现在节目中，名叫尤瓦尔·鲁斯。

And it was created by Digital Asset, who I think was actually a guest not too long ago in the in the past, Yuval Rous.

因此，他所在的公司数字资产公司创建了Canton。

And so he created in his firm, Digital Assets, created Canton.

我认为它特别之处在于，它的目标是将传统市场转变为区块链技术的力量。

And I think what makes it special is its focus is to kind of do this transformation from traditional markets to the power of of blockchain.

我知道有些人讨论并把Canton和以太坊做比较，说它更像以太坊。

You know, I've seen people talk about and really compare Canton, and they say, oh, it's more like Ethereum.

哦，它更像XRP。

Oh, it's more like XRP.

网上流行的说法是，它是所谓的XRP杀手。

The popular thing that I've seen online is it is the quote unquote XRP killer.

但确实，我觉得它们之间存在一些差异。

And, you know, it does feel like there's some differences.

我的意思是，你最想把它和什么相比较？

I mean, what would you most compare it to?

因为它感觉像是几个项目的混合体。

Because it kinda feels like it's a hybrid of several projects.

没错。

Exactly.

我认为这是因为它的专注点很明确。

And I think that's because it's focused on kind of one thing.

你提到的每一条区块链，还有其他一些，确实各有其用。

Each blockchain that you mentioned, and there's others out there as well Yeah.

每条链都有其特定的目标和用途。

Serves its purpose and what it's focused on.

因此，Canton 的目标是将我们的金融市场——无论是美国国债市场、股票市场，还是金融流程等——迁移到区块链平台上。

And so, again, Canton's focused on kind of transforming our financial markets, whether it be The US treasury market, equity market, even financial process flows, etcetera, to to get those on top of blockchain rails.

其他每条链都有其适用的场景。

And there's use cases for each of the other l ones.

所以我不认为 Canton 是要取代其他任何项目。

So I don't think it's like Canton versus anything else.

每条区块链都有其特定的用途、价值以及各自的优缺点。

It's it's kind of each blockchain has its specific purpose and has its value and and pros and cons about each of them.

因此，如果我剖析一下我认为Canton最独特的地方，以及为什么它特别适合完成其使命——即将这些金融市场迁移到区块链上——那就是它的可配置隐私特性。

And so if I dissect what what I think is very special about Canton and why it makes it very well suited for what its task is, which is transforming those financial markets to blockchain rails, is the configurable privacy element.

所以，我认为有必要思考一下，在机构型市场中，或者即使作为个人，你的银行账户里，隐私都是很重要的。

So I think it's it's important to think about where you know, in the institutional type markets or even, like, your bank account if you're an individual, privacy is is important in there.

因此，并不是每个人都希望所有东西都公开。

And so it's it's not something that everyone wants everything to be public.

我喜欢说，这是为合适的受众提供适当的透明度：你可以指定，如果发生了某种交易，该交易的某个部分对公众完全透明。

And I like to say it's the right transparency for the right audience, where you're able to say, if this type of transaction happened, this element of the transaction is completely transparent for the public.

交易的这一部分则可供监管机构查看，比如，或者这一部分仅对机构可见。

This part of the transaction is, you know, available to the regulators, for example, or this part of the transaction is to the, you know, institution.

以银行业为例，你有一个支票账户，进行各种不同的交易，银行需要看到所有活动，以确保其能够遵守必须履行的监管要求，因此他们可以看到一切。

So, like, if you take just the banking example where you have a checking account and you do a variety of different transactions, and your bank needs to see all of the activity to make sure that they are able to comply with the regulations that they have to hold uphold to so you can see everything.

对他们来说，这一切都是完全透明的。

It's completely transparent to them.

但外界并不知道我具体把钱转给了谁、支付给了谁等等。

But it's not transparent to the world about where I'm necessarily sending money, paying money, etcetera.

这些信息只对某些机构等保持私密。

That's only private to certain institutions, etcetera.

但监管环境可以查看所有内容。

But the regulatory environment gets to see everything.

你可以将这种模式应用到股票市场。

And you just transform that to the equity market.

股票市场中也有交易报告等机制，同样的原则也适用。

There's transactional reporting, etcetera, that goes on there, and the same could apply.

交易中有一些元素应该对所有人公开，而另一些元素则应保持私密。

There are certain elements of a transaction that should be public to everyone and certain elements that should be private.

是的。

Yeah.

这正是现实世界运作的方式。

And that's how the normal world works.

并不是所有事情都该私密，有些事情该公开，而且大多数人不希望所有信息都公之于众。

It's like not every some things are private, some things are public, and you don't want most people don't want everything being out there.

因此，为了实现某种程度的主流普及，你必须能够同时兼顾这两者，对吧？

And so in order for somewhat of a normal form of mainstream adoption, you need to be able to have both, right?

没必要让每个人都知道你买了什么、搜索了什么、去了哪些地方，甚至你吃的东西——这种例子数不胜数。

Not everyone needs to see every single thing that you're buying, every single thing that you're searching, every single thing that you're doing in places that you're going, and the list goes, you know, everything you're eating.

对吧？

Right?

他们不需要看到所有这些信息，尤其是在金融领域，我认为在这些方面，人们有权享有一定程度的隐私。

They don't need to see all this information, and especially in the financial world, and I think there's a right to some level of privacy when it comes to all of that.

所以这很合理。

And so it makes sense.

到目前为止，这更像是走钢丝：一方面认为所有东西都该上链、都该公开，另一方面又有隐私项目主张用超强加密让一切都不公开。

Up until this point, it's kinda been a little bit more of like a balance beam of like, oh, well, everything should be on chain, or everything should be available, And then there's some privacy projects, which are like, nothing should be available with this, you know, super encryption.

而我认为，随着我们越来越接近普及，尤其是过去两三年里我们已经看到了大量采用——我甚至觉得，这个时间跨度应该超过两年。

And I think now as we get closer and closer and as we see more levels of adoption, which we've seen a lot in the last two or so years, especially in the you know, I'd go further than two.

你知道吗，过去两年我们已经取得了很大进展。

You know, we've made a lot of progress in the last two.

但总的来说，自从加密货币出现以来，随着加密货币和区块链技术越来越多地融入传统金融和日常生活，我认为现在到了一个需要折中的时刻，我们可以这么说：嘿。

But just period, you know, since crypto's been out, as we start to see crypto and blockchain tech integrating more with traditional finance and more with everyday purposes, I think there needs to be a little bit of a meet in the middle moment where we can say, hey.

你知道，区块链是这样设计的，但这并不意味着它不能根据需求灵活调整。

You know, blockchain was designed in this way, but it doesn't mean that it can't flex to where it is needed or what it is needed.

而这正是关键所在：它不必是非此即彼的极端情况，要么全公开，要么全私密。

And that's kinda where this comes in, is it's saying it doesn't have to be this all or nothing scenario, where it's everything's available, everything's private.

如果我们能很好地结合两者，从而服务更广阔的市场，那会怎样呢？显然，这个市场就是万亿美元规模的传统金融领域，而这正是这里的重点。

What if we had a good mix of both so that we can cater to a larger market, which is obviously the trillion and trillion dollar TradFi markets, which is kinda where this comes in.

我立刻注意到的一点是，有很多项目声称自己与X、Y、Z有支持或合作关系，但你一看，发现这些公司根本不知道自己被列为合作伙伴、支持方之类的。

And one of the things that I've noticed right away is that there's lots of projects out there that say, oh, well, we have support or partnerships with X, Y, and Z, and you look, and it's like the companies don't even know that they're in a partnership, quote unquote, or supporting or whatever.

但Canton背后有着庞大的知名机构支持。

But Canton has this huge backing of names.

我的意思是，我们之前提到过一些，比如花旗、纽约梅隆银行，我认为高盛也在名单上。

I mean, we mentioned some of them earlier, Citi, BNY Mellon, I think Goldman Sachs was on the list.

如果我错了，你随时可以纠正我。

You can correct me if I'm wrong.

是的。

Yep.

摩根大通。

JPMorgan.

他们是在和谁合作？

What are they partnering?

如果有其他公司，也欢迎补充。

Or if there's other ones, feel free to throw them in here.

你能给我们一些具体的例子，说明他们为什么关注，以及Canton是如何为他们提供服务的吗？

Can you give us some specific examples of why and what they're looking at and how Canton's kind of servicing them in

关于这一点，我先退一步说，Canton是经过多年的工作才建成的，并不是突然就推向市场的。

regards I'll to take a step back and Canton was built over years of work, so it wasn't just something that came to market right now.

我认为这是有意为之，确保它能够达到你刚才提到的那些机构的标准。

And I think that was intentional, making sure that it was going to meet the standards that some of the firms you just mentioned.

所以如果你看一下这些合作关系，我认为这是一个全面的生态系统。

And so if you look at those partnerships, it's it's, I think, a well rounded ecosystem.

你有一些大型银行。

So you have some of the large banks.

你有法国巴黎银行、高盛、摩根大通。

You have BNP, Goldman, JPMorgan.

再往这边看。

You go on on that side.

所以这一项已经满足了。

So check the box.

我们有一些大型银行。

We have some large banks.

我们还有一些像Cumberland这样的大型做市商，它们在Canton上开展业务，并参与了这个生态系统。

We have large market makers that like Cumberland, etcetera, that are doing activity on top of Canton that are involved in the ecosystem.

然后你还有像DTCC和欧洲清算所这样的基础设施提供商，它们是这个基础的核心，我稍后会谈到。

Then you have utility players like DTCC and and Euroclear that are the coheds of the foundation, which I'll get to in a second as well.

所以，坦白说，我认为它们是最大的两家。

So you have the the frankly, I think they're the two largest.

我认为DTC是全球最大的中央证券存管机构提供商，而Euroclear绝对是前三，如果不是第二的话。

I think DTC is the largest CSD provider in the world, and Uroclear is definitely top three, if not number two.

因此，你就能接触到这一部分。

And so you just have access to that component.

你有纳斯达克、交易网。

You have Nasdaq, trade webs.

你有电子执行系统。

You have electronic execution.

你有参与这一生态系统的股权交易所。

You have, an equity exchange, that are involved in the ecosystem.

这一切都属于传统金融领域的范畴。

And that's all kind of in the the trad file landscape.

然后你再转向加密货币一侧，看看有哪些参与者。

And then you go over to the crypto side, and you can look at who's involved on that.

你有Circle。

You have circles.

你有稳定币。

You have stablecoins.

你有基础设施提供商。

You have infrastructure providers.

你有托管方，等等，还有很多。

You have custodians, and and the list goes on and on.

因此，你需要一套完整的对手方体系，才能让他们参与并对生态系统产生兴趣。

So it's gone after kind of a well rounded suite of counterparties to then get them involved and excited about the ecosystem.

但你必须以符合他们标准的方式构建它。

But you have to build it in a way that meets their standards.

我认为在我们推进过程中，理解这一点非常重要。

And I think that's very important to understand as we go through.

所以我们谈到了隐私以及它为何重要，这是一个关键特性。

So we talked about privacy and why that's important, and that's one key feature.

另一个我认为是治理结构。

The other one, I would say, is kind of a governance structure.

如果你想要一个真正符合机构标准的系统，以吸引这些——其中许多公司，如果不是全部的话——都受到严格监管。

If you want something that's really institutional grade, so to speak, to attract these And many of these firms, if not all, are all very heavily regulated.

因此，你需要确保自己符合他们的规定，工作流程也符合他们的要求。

And so you need to make sure that you're compliant with them and the workflows are compliant with them.

因此，这是创建基金会的另一个组成部分，该基金会独立于数字资产公司——即Canton的创建者。

And so that was another component of the foundation that was created that's independent of, you know, Digital Asset who is the creator of of Canton.

它拥有DTCC和Euroclear的联合创始董事会。

And it has co found co board of DTC and Uroclear.

这赋予了它一种非单方面决策的可信度。

And it gives it that credibility that it's not unilaterally.

你不会遭遇跑路事件。

You're not gonna have a rug pull.

它还带来了那种信任感和高级别的认可，有助于促成这些合作关系。

And and it gives you that kind of trust factor, that stamp of approval sophistication on top of it, which will get those partnerships to happen.

第三点，我想说的是代币经济机制，我认为这使其与许多其他加密货币和区块链区别开来——从诞生之初就没有预挖矿，没有为创始人或早期关联方单独预留代币。

And then the third, I'll I'll say, is the tokenomics element of it, which I think makes it unique from many other coins and blockchains out there, where you have even from its infancy stages, where you didn't have a pre mine, where it was just kind of feeding the founders or those that were early on pockets associated with it.

即使考虑到Theramune在数字资产金库方面的结构，我们也非常注重精简开支、控制成本，在启动阶段就力求高效，至今仍以这种方式运营公司。

Even taking into how Theramune was structured from a digital asset treasury, we were very conscious and and, you know, trimmed the fat and very cost effective in our cost of startup, and we are running our firm that way.

所以我是个实干家。

So I'm an operator.

我有意识地让公司保持精简，以提升股东价值。

I'm running our company intentionally thin to increase value to shareholders.

其他人可能采用了略有不同的结构，这确实影响了部分潜在收入。

And others may have had a little bit different structure that definitely weighs on some of the upside revenue from that.

我认为理解这一点很重要，因为它能吸引这些公司的兴趣，并提供稳定性，使它们能够顺利通过内部流程、董事会决策和监管审批。

And I think that's important to understand how that attracts interest from those firms and gives that stability that gives them to go through their process and their board and their regulatory approval that needs to happen.

所以你看到了这一切。

So you're seeing all of this.

我的意思是，这里的信息量很大，但你确实看到了我所提到的这三个不同催化剂和原因正在发生。

I mean, there's a lot to digest there, but you're seeing kind of all of this happen, the three different catalysts and reasons that you're talking about.

Theramune 并不总是专注于作为 Canton 金库或支持 Canton 生态系统。

And Theramune wasn't always solely focused as a Canton treasury or in support of the Canton ecosystem.

你知道，是什么促使你意识到这必须成为未来的主要重点？你为什么做出这个决定？

You know, what was kind of the turning point for you to say, hey, you know, this needs to be a major focus moving forward, and why did you make that decision?

是的。

Yeah.

我之前是 DRW 的首席运营官和合伙人。

So I was previously a COO and partner at DRW.

从数字资产的角度来看，Yuval 在 DRW 的工作经历让他多年来一直参与 Canton 相关事务。

And from digital assets, roots of Yuval working at DRW, was involved in kind of Canton for the last several years.

真正让我个人感到兴奋并推动我的是，我看到了一个千载难逢的机会，能够彻底改变某样东西。

And what really excited me personally and motivated me was I saw this, you know, once in a lifetime type opportunity where you were able to transform something.

如果你看看人们，他们的驱动力各不相同。

And if you look at people are motivated by different things.

对我来说，我在 Citadel 和 DRW 工作时最享受的就是不断思考：我们如何能把事情做得更好？如何实现创新？

For me, what I loved about my time at Citadel and DRW was always kind of thinking about how can we do things better, how can we innovate.

而且，显然，创新也是加密货币的固有特性，它每天都在不停地创新。

And, obviously, that that is in crypto's DNA as well, is the innovation is is just nonstop and and constantly innovates every day.

这是一种不同的东西。

It's something different.

这正是我个人的驱动力。

And that's what motivated me personally.

我看到了一个转折点，现在我们有了监管清晰度的推动力，这些之前是逆风，如今却成了顺风，这是一个真正能产生影响、不再空谈的时刻。

And I saw this as this inflection point where we now have momentum of, you know, regulatory clarity on some of these things, this this kind of tailwind where previously was a headwind, and this kind of moment to be able to actually make a difference and and actually not talk about things.

我认为你提到的另一个负面因素是关于合作伙伴关系。

I think that's one of the other negative components you you mentioned about, like partnerships.

人们一直在谈论这些事情，但实际并不在场。

People talk about all these things, but they're not actually there.

所以这更多的是空谈，而不是实际执行。

So it's a lot of conversation versus actual execution.

而在我看来，作为一位运营者，我管理事务的方式非常注重执行和交付成果。

And that's where myself, I think of the way that I manage and do things as an operator, we're very focused on execution and delivering those results.

所以我认为我也想传达的是，这件事现在真的正在发生。

And so I think that's what I would also like to get across is like, this is actually happening now.

而这正是Canton的美妙之处，让我非常兴奋，因为这些合作真的在开展活动，而不是仅仅被讨论了五年。

And that's the beauty of Canton, which which very much excites me is because these partnerships are actually doing activity, and it's not something that was discussed for five years.

这些事情正在实时发生，而且比任何人预期的都要快得多。

These are things that are happening real time and much faster than anyone anticipates.

是的。

Yeah.

而且，我想回到Theramune，关于数字资产库（DATs）整体而言，2025年，它们正在四处爆发式增长。

And, you know, I think going back to Theramune, in digital asset treasuries, DATs as a whole, you know, 2025, exploding left and right, all over the place.

是的，有太多这样的产品推出了。

Yes, so many of them came out.

而对于一些DATs，人们存在误解，认为它们只是购买资产，仅此而已。

And the misconception, with some DATs, all they do is they buy the asset, and that's it.

然后就放在那里，这就是唯一的目标。

And then they sit there, and that's the sole goal.

人们应该如何看待Theramune，而不仅仅把它看作是购买并持有Canton的人？

How should people think about Theramune beyond that, beyond just being someone who buys Canton and holds it?

是的。

Yeah.

我所描述的这种交易是一种资本市场飞轮效应：你购买代币，持有它，积累它，它的价值增长，然后出售股份，利用资本市场来资助这些购买，这确实是一个特点，但并非唯一目的。

So what I describe that trade is the kind of capital markets flywheel, which is you buy coin, hold that coin, accumulate that coin, it grows in value, sell shares, use capital markets to kind of fund those purchases, which is a feature, but that's not the sole purpose.

我们的唯一目标是壮大生态系统，并为投资者创造收益和现金流。

Our sole purpose is to grow the ecosystem and generate yield and cash flow for investors.

而Canton通过SuperValidator的结构以及奖励分配方式，为我们的股东提供了通过这一机制产生收益的机会。

And the way that Canton's structured with SuperValidator and the way that rewards are distributed, there's an opportunity to generate yield for our shareholders through that mechanism.

就像我上周说的，我们已宣布成为超级验证节点，这使我们能够产生收益。

So like I said last week, it was announced we became a super validator, which allows us to generate that yield.

我们还可以开发应用程序。

We can also build apps.

我们可以与已经拥有应用程序的公司建立合作关系。

We can form partnerships with firms that already have apps.

我们可以收购应用。

We can buy apps.

我们可以投资正在开发应用的公司。

We can invest in firms that are building apps.

这关乎生态系统的扩展。

And it's about growing that ecosystem.

因此，我们在如何为股东创造价值以及帮助网络增长方面有着相当广泛的使命。

So we have a pretty broad mandate about how we can generate value to shareholders, but also help grow the network.

所以我们的目标是网络的增长，我们该如何提出应用场景？

So our alignment is growth in the network, and how do we come up with use cases?

再回到我做水管工的时候，我如何将对事物流动方式的理解，转化为可以在Canton之上构建的实际应用场景？

And, again, going back to my plumbing days, how do I take that kind of understanding of how things flow to actual use cases that can be built up on top of Canton?

我前几天对别人说过，每天我都会想，如果某个行为能运行在智能合约上——我不只是说Canton，而是任何智能合约——都能为进行该活动的用户带来真正的经济收益。

I said this to someone else the other day is, like, every day I go through, be like, if that was on top of a smart contract and I'm not just talking about Canton, but if that was on top of a smart contract, that would generate true economic yield to the users that would be doing that activity.

无论是减少人力成本、降低融资成本、减少摩擦、减少支持成本，还是降低系统整体成本，最终都能为用户的所有者带来更高的收入。

Whether that means headcount reduction or less financing costs, less friction, less support, less cost to the system, ultimately means greater revenue generating to the owners of that users, etcetera.

所以我认为这正是最令人兴奋的地方。

And so that's where I think is is really exciting.

是的。

Yeah.

另一个重要领域是资产代币化，我知道听众们一听立刻就来了兴趣。

And one of the other big areas is this area of tokenization, which I know the listeners immediately, the ears are perking up.

我们把这个流行词说出来了。

We've said the buzzword.

在现实世界资产中的代币化，真是个热门话题。

Tokenization in in RWAs, such a hot topic.

我们常开玩笑说，每个来访谈的人多多少少都会提到它。

I I mean, we make the joke that everyone that comes on brings it up in some fashion.

它一直被频繁讨论。

It's constantly being talked about.

但这是因为似乎所有的关注点都集中在这里。

But it's because it seems to be where so much of the attention is.

当我们说关注时，并不是只有加密圈内的人在喊着‘代币化、代币化’，渴望它成为现实。

And when we say attention, it's not like it's just the people inside of crypto saying tokenization, tokenization, crying for it to become a reality.

它正在发生。

It's it's happening.

它正在幕后悄然进行。

It is happening behind the scenes.

我查阅过花旗、摩根大通、美国银行、贝莱德的报告，等等，名单还能继续列下去。

I mean, I have gone through reports from Citi, from JPMorgan, from Bank of America, from BlackRock, from mean, the list goes on.

我的意思是，所有大型机构都在谈论这件事。

I mean, everyone that's big is talking about this.

它已经开始了。

It's already started happening.

Canton 进一步强化了这一理念并付诸实践。

And Canton kind of doubles down on that idea in implementing it.

你能谈谈代币化这一方面的情况，以及那边正在发生什么吗？

So can you talk about the tokenization side of things and what's going on over there?

当然。

Sure.

对。

Yeah.

所以也许我们应该做个投票。

So maybe we should take a poll.

哪个是更大的热门词汇？

Which one's the bigger buzzword?

人工智能、代币化，还是24/7交易？

AI, tokenization, or twenty four seven trading?

因为无论你去哪里，都会遇到这三个中的一个。

Because it's like everywhere you go, you gotta run into one of the three.

但代币化绝对是关键组成部分。

But tokenization definitely is a key component.

而且，再次强调，我认为接下来你想要关注的是几周前公布的关于他们计划代币化股票等资产的最新公告。

And and, again, I think where you want to go after there was obviously the was one of the latest announcements that came through a couple weeks ago about their plans to tokenize equities and so forth.

我认为它具有巨大的势头。

And I think it has tremendous momentum.

你实际上正在看到真实的活动发生，比如DTC的公告。

It's you're actually seeing real activity go on in getting like, take DTC's announcement.

甚至在他们宣布之前，就已经获得了SEC的无异议函，以便开展这项工作。

And even before they announced that they got the no action letter from the SEC in order to do that.

这些在过去都需要花费很多年才能实现。

Those are all kind of steps that in the past would have taken many, many years to be able to it.

现在正在实时发生。

It's happening real time.

但代币化的要求是什么？

But what what is the requirement of tokenizing?

它能做什么？

What does it do?

它让事物能够更自由地流动，而这又回到了减少系统中的融资摩擦。

It allows to things move more freely, which, again, goes back to reduces funding friction in the system.

所以你要考虑抵押品的流动性，因为这与代币化密切相关。

So you think about collateral mobility, because that kinda goes hand in hand with tokenization.

为了实现实时转移，无论是稳定币还是其他多种方式。

In order to to move things real time, whether that be stables, and there's many different ways.

它不需要一刀切。

It doesn't have to be one size fits all.

这另一个美妙之处在于，我认为应该提供多种不同的接入方式来实现这一点。

That's the other beauty of this is I view it should be multiple different access points to how to to do this.

它让事物能够更自由地流动，最终降低了交易成本。

It allows things to move more freely, which it reduces the cost of transacting, is the end result.

而且我认为，这一点必须以符合该市场或市场结构的方式进行。

And I think, again, it has to be done in a compliant way with that market or that market structure.

无论你谈论的是美国国债，还是股票市场，这些机构和参与者都必须遵守大量的规则和法规。

Whether you're talking about US treasuries or whether you're talking about the equity market, There's lots of rules and regulations that those firms and participants have to abide by.

因此，我们所构建的基础设施，即其代币化部分，必须以合规的方式进行。

And so the rails that we're building, the tokenized aspect of it, needs to be done in a compliant way.

所以这就是Canton发挥作用的地方，它意味着

And so that's where Canton comes in here, is it saying

没错。

Exactly.

我们已经做过这件事了。

We have already done this.

让我们为你简化流程。

Let's make it easy on you.

让我们为你简化流程，对吧？

Let us make it easy on you, right?

没错。

Exactly.

这又回到了同样的基本原理。

And it goes back to the same kind of fundamentals.

它的设计围绕着这个最终目标。

It was built around this is the end goal.

所以我们希望专注于这个市场，因此开发了一款能够实现这些目标的产品。

And so we wanted to to focus on this market, and so we built a product that that achieves those.

当然，我们并没有把所有事情都做到完美，但我们一直专注于努力实现这一目标。

And we haven't obviously done everything perfectly, but we have focused on trying to achieve that.

我们还从合作伙伴关系的角度出发，正如我所说，努力构建一个广泛的生态系统。

We've gone out from even, you know, the partnership side, like I said, trying to get that broad ecosystem.

我们已经花了好几年的时间来做这件事。

We've done this over a number of years.

我们从他人的相关错误中吸取了教训，但核心始终是专注于实现这种转化并满足这些使用场景的需求。

We've learned from other people's mistakes around it, but it's really focused on trying to do this conversion and meeting the needs of those use cases.

在我看来，我们看到一些人感到有些沮丧，说：‘嘿，我们已经听这个‘代币化’这个词一两年甚至三年了，但对它的进展速度有些不满。’

You know, the way that I look at it is we've seen some people get a little bit frustrated and say, hey, know, we've heard this term tokenization for a year, two years, three years now, and there's some sort of frustration with maybe how fast it's moved.

我想说的是，从我的角度来看，到目前为止，所有工作都集中在构建代币化得以实现的基础设施上，让这一切真正成为可能。

What I would say, and the way that I look at this, is that up until this point, it has been all focused about building the infrastructure for which the tokenization can actually happen and how it can actually be a reality.

在我看来，当然，你对这些事情的了解比我更深。

From the way that I view it, and again, I want you to kind of you're you're more knowledgeable in this stuff than I am.

说到这一点，感觉我们正逐渐进入基础设施建设的后期阶段，基础已经打下，现在开始进入下一阶段，即让这些公司加入、使用这项技术，并可能感受到其影响。

When it comes to that, it feels as if we are starting to be in the later stages of laying the infrastructure, setting the foundation, and we're starting to move into the next phase or stage, which is actually getting these companies on board, having them use it, and maybe probably feeling the impacts.

我认为，尽管可能有些偏见，但这是积极的进展。

I would say, maybe I'm biased, but I would say it's in a good way.

因此，我的看法是，到目前为止，确实有很多关于代币化的内容吗？

And so that's what I would view is, again, up until this point, yeah, has there been a lot of tokenization stuff?

是的。

Yes.

但这些工作一直集中在搭建舞台、构建基础设施、打下基础，而现在我们正过渡到上线阶段，让它们投入运营并实现应用场景。

But it's been focused on setting the stage, building the infrastructure, laying the foundation, and now we're transitioning into this onboarding phase and getting them operational and getting the use cases.

这样看待问题准确吗？

Is that an accurate way of looking at things?

是的。

Yes.

我只是想稍微换个说法：迄今为止，许多代币化相关的工作更多是围绕它构建的包装层，而非真正向上游延伸，这一点我们尚未完全实现，即使从DTC的角度来看也是如此。

I would just take it a little bit, say it slightly different in the fact that it's also a lot of the tokenization and things that have been built have been more wrappers around it versus going up the chain, which we're not all the way there yet, even if you look at DTC.

但这是更上游的，并且原生地在链上发行。

But it's further up the chain and natively more issued on on chain.

直接面向发行股权和股票的公司，而不是那种在别处存在的、类似代币化股权的包装品。

You know, taking it directly to, you know, the company that issues an equity and stock versus a wrapper of a lookalike, if you will, tokenized equity that sits sits elsewhere.

所以，我们的目标就是继续朝这个方向推进。

And so, you know, that's the kind of goal is to continue to get to that.

最终，你可能会看到一个世界，在那里美国国债是由美国财政部直接在链上发行的。

Eventually, maybe you could see a world where US treasury is from the United States treasury is actually issued on trade.

谁知道呢？

Who knows?

也许这种情况会发生。

Maybe that will happen.

但之前我们关注的是我们能控制的部分，而现在我们正瞄准更上游，从最开始就介入，让整个流程顺畅起来，而这又会构建一个更健康的生态系统。

But it's again, where we focused on before was what we could control, and now we're actually targeting more up the stream at the very start of it and and getting that flow through, which again is a healthier ecosystem.

这样可以减少很多摩擦。

You take less friction around that.

你在整个生态系统中降低了与此相关的风险。

You take less risk associated with it in the ecosystem around it.

再次回到在所有市场周期中通过冗余和韧性构建结构，这正是你想要实现的。

Again, going back to redundancy and resiliency through all market times, that's the structure you want to to build.

我认为我们现在所构建的重要之处在于，我们是在上游的转折点上介入，而不是在下游的类似品或封装层上操作。

And I think that's also important of what we're building now is we're actually taking it at the point of inflection up the stream versus down the stream of of like a lookalike or a wrapper on top of it.

我认为我最近看到你有一句引述，说我们距离现实世界资产的近乎完全代币化还有两到五年的时间。

And I think I've seen you have a quote here recently where you're saying we're somewhere between two and five years away from near complete tokenization of real world assets.

这是一个很快的时间表。

It's a fast timeline.

想想看，到本十年末，也就是2030年，我们很可能已经实现了。

You know, thinking, hey, by the end of this decade, by 2030, it sounds like we could very well be there.

谈谈你对这一观点的思考，以及这将带来怎样的影响。

Walk us through your thoughts behind that, and then also, like, the impact that that would have.

是的。

Yeah.

再者，如果你看看像DTCC这样的参与者，它们的规模有多大——有3万亿美元的美国国债通过它们存管，还有70万亿美元的股票。

Again, if you look at the players like DTCC, the size that they have, they have 30 there's 30,000,000,000,000 US treasuries that I think are are on deposit through them, and 70,000,000,000,000 is is equities.

我认为它们现在正在试点美国国债，到2026年，计划是它们会逐步将其余资产类别，如股票等，也纳入其中。

And I I think them piloting the US treasuries now, this this 2026, I think the plan is that they're going to go down the line of their other asset classes, equities, etcetera.

我不确定下一个会是哪个，但我推测股票也很可能是下一个目标。

I don't know which one's next, but I would infer that equities is a likely choice as well.

我认为这件事的发生速度会比其他人预期的快得多。

And I think it's going to happen much sooner than what others have anticipated.

因为多年前，如果要引入这些产品并获得监管机构的表态，通常需要十年时间。

Because this first step of introducing them, getting that announced, getting the regulators to opine on that, years ago would have been a ten year process.

但这件事在一年内就完成了。

That that happened within a year.

因此，理解这一点非常重要：这实际上正在迅速兴起，你看看现在参与其中并积极构建相关系统的机构。

And so I think it's very important to understand, like, this is actually taking off, and you look at the institutions that are involved now and actually building on it.

你看到像Canton交易这样的平台，每天的交易量正接近一百万笔，我认为这是接近的交易数字。

You're seeing you know, just looking at Canton transactions, we're nearing, like, a a million transactions a day, I think, is the the close transaction number.

所以它还在持续增长，我知道我很期待看到它将如何发展。

So it's it's continues to grow, and, you know, I'm excited to see how it's going to evolve.

但我觉得一旦这些多米诺骨牌开始倒下，链上就会出现大量的活动。

But I think once you get some of those dominoes to to fall, it's going to be large amounts of of activity going on chain.

我们之前聊了很多关于Canton的机构端。

You know, we talked a lot about the institutional side of Canton.

你觉得Canton可能会如何影响零售端呢？

How do you see Canton maybe impacting the retail side?

我的意思是，这其实是个自我解答的问题：通过帮助和服务机构端，它会直接影响零售端。

I mean, I guess it's kind of a self answering question where it's saying, hey, by helping and catering to the institutional side, it'll directly affect the retail side.

有没有更直接面向零售端的策略，而不是间接的？

Is there any kind of more direct retail focus as opposed to indirect?

我认为，如果你能实现更好的执行和更低的摩擦，最终这对零售端也有好处。

So I think like if you get better execution, ultimately that, and less friction in that, that ultimately benefits the the retail side.

我认为建立一个既包含机构端也包含零售端的完整生态系统很重要。

And I think it's important to have a well rounded ecosystem that's not just only on institutional and retail.

因此，我们的重点是确保我们针对并解决所有这些投资者类型的需求。

So there's a focus to make sure that we are going after and solving for all of those investor types.

我想以Theramune这种上市公司股票为例，我常做的类比是：如果你想持有美国国债，投资者有不同的偏好、目标、动机和限制条件。

And I think about even Theramune in a publicly traded equity as a use case where if you're the parallel I always draw is if you want to own a US treasury bond, investors have different appetite, different objective, different goals, different constraints.

因此，有些投资者可能想购买国债。

And so some investors may want to buy the treasury bond.

有些人则可能交易期货，因为期货具有税务优势等等。

Some may trade a future because it has tax characteristics, etcetera.

或者你可能想交易利率互换。

Or you may want to trade an interest rate swap.

我认为同样的道理也适用于Canton币和Canton敞口，如果你愿意这么理解的话。

And I view the same applies for Canton coin and Canton exposure, if you will.

你可以购买Canton币，或者购买一家上市公司股票。

You could buy Canton coin, or you could buy a publicly traded stock.

它们具有不同的特性。

And they have different profiles.