Ep. 724 DeFi Lending Is Changing Fast — Spark’s CEO Explains the Future of On-Chain Lending

加密货币入门课，老伙计们，我们又回来了，今天聊聊我最爱的网购品牌——Quince。

Crypto one zero one fam, we're back again to talk about my favorite online shopping, and it is Quince.

最近我对自己每天穿什么更讲究了。

Lately, I've just been more intentional what I wear every day.

我以前也提过。

I've talked about it before.

佛罗里达这天气热得要命，我得特别注意衣着，挑些轻松舒适、但又不失得体的单品，来应对越来越热的天气。

The Florida heat, I gotta be very intentional about my wardrobe, and I'm leaning into pieces that feel easy, comfortable, but still put together as the weather heats up in Florida.

这样每天穿衣服简单多了。

It just makes getting dressed simpler.

Quince 就是我的首选。

Quince has my go to.

面料质感高级，剪裁简洁利落，每件都特别好搭。

The fabrics feel elevated, the fits are clean, and everything just works.

而且我做播客特别忙。

And I'm so busy on the podcast.

我不想把穿衣服想得太复杂。

I just don't wanna overthink it.

Quince 的春季衣橱必备款一应俱全。

Quince has all the wardrobe staples for spring.

比如纯欧洲亚麻短裤和衬衫，价格从34美元起，轻盈透气又舒服，穿上去却依然整洁得体。

Think 100% European linen shorts and shirts from $34, lightweight, breathable, and comfortable, but still look put together and clean.

100%皮马棉T恤，柔软度得亲自摸了才懂。

100% Pima cotton tees with a softness that has to be felt.

他们的裤子也是，宽松舒适但又不失精致，去哪儿都能穿。

Their pants also hit the same balanced, relaxed, and comfortable, but still polished enough to wear pretty much anywhere.

所有东西都便宜了五到八成，因为他们绕过了中间商，但质量一点没打折。

Everything is priced 50 to 80% less because they cut out the middleman from your favorite brands, but don't sacrifice on the quality.

Quince 直接跟道德工厂合作，省掉中间环节。

Quince works directly with ethical factories to cut out the middleman.

所以你能拿到顶级面料，却不用付溢价。

So you're getting premium materials without the markup.

朋友们，我跟你们聊过很久Quince了，就是因为他们的衣服真的棒，购物体验也无可挑剔。

Guys, you heard me talk about Quince for a long time now, and it's because their clothes are awesome and the shopping experience is second to none.

他们的官网购物特别有意思。

The online store is so fun.

商品种类多得不得了，而且一直是我们Crypto101的优质赞助商。

They have so many items, and they've been a great sponsor to crypto one zero one.

如果你正打算买点新衣服，就去quince.com看看吧。

So if you're thinking about getting some new clothes, go to quince.com.

用真正穿得上的奢侈品，焕新你的日常穿搭。

Refresh your everyday with luxury you'll actually use.

访问quince.com/crypto101，下单即享免运费，现在加拿大也支持365天无理由退换。

Head to quince.com/crypto101 for free shipping on your order and 365 returns now available in Canada too.

记住，quince.com/crypto101，免运费加365天退换服务。

That's quince.com/crypto101 for free shipping and three hundred and sixty five day returns.

quince.com/crypto101。

Quince.com/crypto10one.

好了，各位。

Alright, everybody.

欢迎回到《Crypto 101》播客的又一期节目。

Welcome back to another episode of the Crypto one zero one podcast.

我是你们的联合主持人Bryce，一如既往，和我远在另一头的好友Brennan Veeman一起。

I'm your cohost, Bryce, as always, joined by my good buddy across the country, Brennan Veeman.

Brennan，你最近怎么样？

Brennan, how are you doing, dude?

见到你真好。

Good to see you.

见到你我也很高兴。

Good to see you, dude.

咱们这对黄金搭档又回来了。

The dynamic duo is back here.

我知道很多《Crypto 101》的听众一直都在关心和问起，所以你回来真是太好了。

I know a lot of the people out in the the crypto one zero one verse have been wondering and asking, and so it's good to have you back.

这期节目真棒。

And, what a podcast.

我们刚重新一起开播，但今天这期绝对会非常精彩。

And I know we're just getting back into it again together, but, really electric podcasts that we're gonna have here today.

现在正是聊这个的好时机。

Perfect time to have them on.

最近圈子里事情特别多，尤其是DeFi领域。

A lot going on out here in the space, especially in DeFi.

我特别兴奋。

So, I'm pretty stoked.

状态很好。

I'm feeling good.

你刚才那话说得真到位。

I like I like what you did there.

确实很燃，因为今天我们请来了Spark的联合创始人萨姆·麦克弗森。

It's electric, because we've got the cofounder of Spark, mister Sam MacPherson, joining us today.

Sam，感谢你来参加节目，最近怎么样？

Sam, thank you for joining the show, and, how are you doing?

是的。

Yeah.

非常感谢邀请我来。

Thanks so much for having me.

我状态很好。

I'm I'm doing great.

没什么好抱怨的。

Can't complain.

太棒了。

Love it.

非常感谢你来参加，我们直接切入正题吧。

Well, we really appreciate you joining the show, and and we wanna just dive straight into it.

这期节目我们会全面聊聊去中心化借贷的各种话题。

This episode's gonna cover, you know, all things DeFi lending.

我们可能会聊一聊Sky生态的整体情况，还有这些‘星星’是怎么发展起来的。

We'll probably talk a little bit about the broader Sky ecosystem and how these, you know, the stars are developing.

不过首先，咱们简单聊聊你的背景，你是怎么进入加密世界的？

But first, let's just touch base, you know, briefly on your background and how you kinda got into crypto.

是什么吸引你关注加密货币的？

What drew you to crypto?

你为什么选择在这个领域做建设？

Why are you building in this space?

其实你完全可以去传统金融领域做项目。

I mean, could be building in TradFi.

或者去搞人工智能，也行。

You could be building in AI.

现在有那么多不同的行业可以选择。

All these different industries.

那你为什么偏偏选了加密货币？

Why crypto?

是的。

Yeah.

所以我进入了加密领域。

So I got into crypto.

我刚开始像很多人一样，只是个业余投资者。

I came in, I think, like a lot of people as, like, a hobbyist investor at first.

我是在2017年的ICO热潮时入局的。

For me, I came in at the 2017 ICO cycle.

我之前就知道比特币，但以太坊的智能合约才真正吸引我——我本身是个程序员。

I got some I was aware about Bitcoin before, but Ethereum smart contracts, this is me, my trade is a programmer.

这正是让我着迷的地方。

So this is kind of what really hooked me.

于是我到处找感兴趣的项目，后来在2018年初发现了Maker。

And so just looking around for projects that would interest me and I stumbled across Maker in early twenty eighteen.

从那以后，我就慢慢在这个领域里学习了几年。

And from there, yeah, just kind of learning about the space over a couple of years.

但最终我加入了当时还叫MakerDAO的核心工程团队。

But eventually culminated into me joining as part of the core engineering team on what was MakerDAO at the time.

后来他们重新 branding，改名叫 Sky，不过那时候还是叫 Maker。

There's been since a rebrand as Sky, but this is the original brand Maker.

我在那儿当了两年工程师。

So I worked there for two years as an engineer.

在这个过程中，2022年有一次治理投票，决定重组治理结构、改名 Sky，还有其他一系列调整。

And then as part of this process, there was a governance vote in 2022 to restructure the governance, rebrand to Sky, all these types of changes that were coming.

所以当时我和一些同事、其他团队决定推出 Spark，后来叫 Untitled。

So as part of this, we decided at one point, me and various colleagues and other teams, to launch Spark, then Untitled.

但最初的目标是做一个借贷市场。

But initially, it was to launch a lending market.

从2023年我们上线以来，Spark 就慢慢发展成了今天的样子。

And then this has kind of grown since 2023 when we launched into Spark of what it is today.

我特别喜欢。

I love it.

如果从宏观角度看Spark，你会怎么定义它呢？

And if you think about Spark at a high level, how would you classify it?

它到底是什么？目标用户是谁？

What is it and who's it for?

是的，Spark是一个原生的去中心化金融借贷协议。

Yeah, so Spark is a DeFi native lending protocol.

用户可以把他们的稳定币存进来，比如USDT、USDC或者USDS。

So users are able to deposit their stablecoins, so it could be USDT, USDC, USDS.

他们可以存入我们叫做Spark Savings的产品里。

They can deposit into our product called Spark Savings.

Spark运行着行业内最复杂、规模最大的收益生成算法之一。

And then Spark operates one of the most sophisticated at scale yield generation algorithms in the space.

它能从DeFi贷款、永续合约资金费率和现实资产收益中产生回报。

And it's able to generate yield from DeFi loans, perpetual futures funding rates, RWAs.

它会自动在这些不同收益渠道之间动态调整，为稳定币用户争取业内最优的风险调整后收益。

It basically rebalances between all these yield programs in such that it delivers what we consider the best risk adjusted rate in the space to stablecoin users.

所以不只是机构能用，任何人都可以使用。

And so it's not just for institutions, but anybody could kind of utilize it.

对吧？

Is that right?

在现实世界资产和借贷方面，主要是机构参与，但借钱的人更多是个人用户。

And, you know, on on maybe the the real world asset side and the the lending side, it's more institutions, but on the borrow side, it's more retail.

我大概就是这么理解的。

That's kind of how I understand it.

我这样理解对吗？

Is that accurate or?

是的。

Yeah.

至于存款这一块，也就是存入稳定币的用户，任何人都可以参与。

So for the deposit side, so for those users who are depositing stablecoins, this is open to everybody.

从个人用户到机构，都有人在存款。

So we have depositors all the way from retail to institutions.

在借贷方面也有一些差异，但主要还是偏向机构用户。

On the lending side, there's also some variety but primarily this skews more towards institutional.

我们通过自己内部的加密借贷市场Sparklend做贷款，用户可以把比特币或以太坊存入智能合约，用这些加密资产作为抵押，借出稳定币。

So we'll do loans within our internal crypto lending market called Sparklend, which is a DeFi lending market where users can put up their Bitcoin or their ETH into the smart contract and basically take out a loan in stablecoins against their crypto collateral.

我们还通过安奇罗奇数字银行提供机构借贷服务。

We also do institutional lending through Anchorage Digital Bank.

这更像是场外贷款，固定利率，我们会向借款人发放贷款，而安奇罗奇作为合格托管方，负责保管抵押品并完成贷款流程。

This is more like OTC loans where fixed rate loans where we will issue a loan to a borrower and then Anchorage as qualified custodian will custody the collateral and facilitate the loan.

这些贷款规模通常很大，动辄几亿美元起。

But these are quite large loans, usually on the order of hundreds of millions of dollars.

所以主要是机构级别的交易。

So it's more at the institutional scale.

此外，我们还通过最近推出的新产品Spark Prime提供借贷服务，这是个CD5级别的主经纪商服务。

And then we also do lending through our more recent product that we launched called Spark Prime, which is a CD5 prime brokerage.

同样，这主要面向机构客户。

So this again is more on the institutional side.

那些中性对冲基金会从我们这里借款，然后去做基差交易来赚取收益，这些收益又会流回Spark生态，最终回到Spark储蓄用户的账户里。

Delta neutral hedge funds will borrow from us there and then go do things like basis trade to generate yield, which then comes back into the Spark ecosystem, which then goes back to Spark savings depositors.

我有个问题想问你。

I've got I've got a question for you.

当一个所谓的‘明星’是什么感觉？

What is it like being a quote unquote star?

对吧？

Right?

我们把Sky生态里的这些子DAO叫做‘星系’。

That's what we call the sub DAOs inside of the new Sky ecosystem.

在Sky生态里当一颗‘星’是什么体验？

What's it like being a star inside of the Sky ecosystem?

你为什么选择加入这个体系，而不是完全独立地自己做这些事？

And why did you decide to do that as opposed to just doing all of this on your own outside of that separate from that?

是的。

Yeah.

我很好奇，因为你们算是最早站出来表态的一批人，说：嘿。

I'm curious because you you guys were, like, really one of the big first players to step forward and say, hey.

我们想引领这个领域。

We wanna kind of lead this space.

我们想成为最早的那批星体或子DAO，哪怕不是第一个。

We wanna be the first one of the first, if not the first, star or sub DAO.

你能跟我们说说这个过程吗？

Can you walk us through that?

是的。

Yeah.

也许先理清Spark和Sky之间的关系会更有帮助。

So maybe it's helpful to understand the relationship between Spark and Sky.

最早Maker发行DAI的时候，也就是后来变成USDS的那个稳定币，当时的治理结构问题很多，因为Maker当时是一个单一的DAO在运作。

So in the beginning when Maker was issuing DAI, the stablecoin that has since become USDS, the governance was really something that there was a lot of issues with in that Maker was operating under a monolithic DAO.

那时候持有MKR代币的人可以投票决定提案是否通过。

So there's token holders who hold the MKR token and then they can vote to pass proposals.

但在2021到2022年期间，我们大规模推进这件事时，开始遇到很多成长中的问题。

But in us doing this at scale for between 2021 to 2022, it really started hitting a lot of growing pains.

整个流程几乎停滞了，完全行不通。

And it was basically grinding to a halt and became the process which just wasn't working at all.

这个问题被大家意识到了。

So this was recognized.

在重组为Sky的过程中，我们对治理结构进行了调整：不再把所有决策都集中在单一组织或单一结构里——也就是所谓的DAO，而是拆分成多个子DAO，也就是你们提到的STARS，让决策能够真正规模化。

And as part of the restructuring to Sky, there was a governance restructuring so that instead of having all the decision making within one organization or one structure, this is called the DAO, it was decided to split it out into sub DAOs or AKA STARS that you're referring to such that decision making could be scaled.

所以Sky的角色更像是一个中立的规则制定者。

So the idea is that Sky kind of it sits as like a very unopinionated rules maker.

它主要为所有人设定基本的运行规则。

So it basically sets the rules of the road for everybody.

而在整个生态里，有多个STARS存在。

And then the STARS within the ecosystem, there's multiple of them.

Spark是第一个，但还有其他的。

Spark is the first, but there are others.

它们都竞争分配Sky的资产负债表，按照Sky的风险框架来投资各种机会。

All of them compete to allocate the balance sheet of Sky and deploy it into various opportunities following the Sky risk framework.

从这个角度看，现在决策可以由一些彼此意见未必一致的小团队来完成。

And in this sense, you now have decision making that can be done by smaller groups that maybe don't necessarily agree with each other.

但市场机制自然会约束整个系统——比如Spark做出明智决策，赚了钱、发展壮大，它就会越来越成功。

But the free market is kind of what keeps the system in check-in that you may have Spark making good decisions and so therefore we will make money and grow, Spark will grow and be successful.

也许另一个STAR做的决策并不怎么样。

Maybe another star is making decisions that aren't particularly good.

它们亏钱、浪费资源，最后就会萎缩。

They lose money, they're wasting money, and then they will shrink.

但整个系统依然保持竞争力，因为决策依然能保持灵活高效。

But the system as a whole remains competitive because the decision making can still be fairly agile.

这就是当初重组的原因。

So this was the reason for the restructuring.

就我个人而言，我对治理机制其实没那么热衷。

From my perspective, I'm not super into governance.

我是个纯粹的产品人。

I'm a very products guy.

所以在之前Maker的架构里，我就只想埋头做东西。

So when I was existing in the previous structure in Maker, I was just kind of wanting to build stuff.

Spark Lend 是我们在Spark推出的第一个产品。

Spark Lend was the first product that we launched at Spark.

其实我一开始就想在Maker里做这个。

I just wanted to do that originally in Maker.

但当时的决策流程根本行不通。

But the political process was just completely untenable.

于是，治理结构的调整正好赶上了这个时机。

So there was this happy coincidence of the restructuring the governance.

我看到了一个机会：我们可以独立行动，按照一个能推动创新和增长的治理模式，去做我们真正想做的产品。

I saw this opportunity where we could really go off on our own and start doing the products that we really want to build out under a governance structure that just facilitates this type of growth and creativity.

所以这一切就这么顺理成章地发生了。

So that's kind of how this all came together.

没错。

Absolutely.

我认为Spark的核心功能之一就是这种借贷模式，有点像银行，但又不是银行。

And I think a core component that Spark is, you know, comprised of is this borrow and lend kinda like a bank, but it's not a bank.

你们确实和一些银行合作，但能不能帮我们理清一下这个概念？

You work with some banks, but can you kind of help in our mind?

我不确定该不该把Spark和传统银行做对比，或者你能不能说明一下，收益类产品、去中心化资本分配器，和真正的银行之间，界限到底在哪里？

I don't know if it's a compare and contrast between Spark and like a traditional bank or if you could kind of let us know where that delineation is between, you know, a yield, product, a DeFi capital allocator, and something that's actually a bank?

是的，确实有很多相似之处，但我不会把这些称为银行。

Yeah, so I mean there's definitely a lot of similarities, but I would not classify these things as banks.

它们是无需许可的链上协议。

These are permissionless on chain protocols.

为了明确这一点，它们的底层机制和银行确实有不少相似之处。

So just to be clear about that upfront, a lot of the underlying mechanics, there's a lot of similarities.

就像银行一样，它们的职责是吸收存款，然后发放贷款，同时保持流动性，确保用户随时能取款。

So like banks, yes, their job is to take in deposits and then issue loans while maintaining liquidity constraints so that users can always withdraw.

借贷协议在这方面非常相似，比如用户把资金存入Spark储蓄，他们希望自己的USDC、USDT或USDS能获得收益。

Lending protocols are very similar in that taking in user deposits and say Spark savings, so again users depositing, they want to earn a yield on their USDC, USDT, USDS.

用户把钱存进来，我们负责找借款人、对接需求、发放贷款，同时管理好流动性，确保存款人随时能取出，还能稳稳地赚到不错的收益。

So they can deposit with us and we'll go out and do the hard work of finding borrowers and connecting with these borrowers and issuing the loans, managing the liquidity such that depositors can always get out while they're still earning a decent yield.

这基本上就是我们的核心工作。

This is kind of more or less the job.

当然，具体怎么促成这些贷款，还有很多细节要考虑。

And then there's a lot of details about how you facilitate these loans.

是通过Spark Land这样的链上方式，利率还浮动？

Are they through something like Spark land, is on chain and variable rates?

还是像通过Anchorage这样的机构贷款？

Or is it more like institutional loans through Anchorage?

也许有些借款人更愿意用托管机构，而不是直接上链。

Maybe they want to use custodians rather than going on chain.

说到底，我们就是针对各种不同的使用场景，去服务好最终的借款人。

Really, it's just catering to all these different use cases and dealing with the end borrower.

但说到底，它的结构其实很相似。

But yeah, fundamentally, the construction is very similar.

不过我要说一下，我们链上借贷和银行不一样，银行一般只保留大约10%的现金储备，而在Sky生态里，我们的目标是至少保持25%的现金储备。

I will say though, with the on chain lending that we unlike banks which kind of keep quite a tight capital reserve on the order of usually 10% cash reserve, within the Sky ecosystem, the goal is to maintain at least 25% cash reserve.

这样做的目的，就是为了确保流动性问题根本不会出现。

And so, is to make sure that these issues of liquidity basically never come up.

根本不用担心，因为流动性非常充裕，用户随时都能自由存取。

It's never going to be a concern because there's just so much excess liquidity that users can always get in and out whenever they want.

这一点特别关键，因为一旦流动性枯竭，那就跟银行挤兑没两样，会直接引发市场恐慌。

This is extremely important because when liquidity dries up, is effectively a bank run and people get, like it just causes panic in the market.

所以我们在Spark里做的很多工作，就是确保这些产品高度流动性，让你随时都能安心进出。

So part of the stuff that we've been doing within Spark is ensuring these highly liquid products so that you always can feel like you can get in and out whenever you want.

好了，来点加密货币入门知识。

Alright, crypto one zero one fam.

我从来没提过的一段经历是，上大学时我打过一级联赛的美式足球。

A story I don't talk about at all is back in college, I played college football at a division one level.

那时候我想吃啥就吃啥，去健身房，按计划练，身材一直保持得很好。

Back then I could eat whatever I want, hit the gym, do the program, and stay in great shape.

根本不用费脑子去管。

I didn't even have to think about it.

现在年纪大了，三十多岁，情况完全不一样了。

Now that I'm older, in my thirties, it's a totally different story.

说真的，我可喜欢这种老爸身材了。

And nobody loves a good dad bod more than me.

但夏天快到了，我在想是不是该稍微减点脂。

But with the summer coming up, I was thinking maybe I should lean out a little bit.

我和朋友们就开始研究怎么才能做到。

And my friends and I started looking into how we could achieve this.

我们不想走肽类或者睾酮那条路，动不动就得打针什么的，太麻烦了。

And instead of going down this peptide route or testosterone route where you gotta do all these needles and stuff, we didn't wanna do that.

我们想找一种更自然点的方式。

We were looking for something more similar.

于是我们就发现了 Mars Men。

And so that's where we found Mars Men.

年纪越大，你越容易掉肌肉、长脂肪，主要原因就是睾酮水平下降。

Listen, you lose muscle faster and store more fat as you get older and a big reason for that is testosterone.

大多数男性到了三十岁出头，睾酮就开始下滑，这让你更容易长胖，尤其是肚子上。

Most guys levels start dropping in their early thirties and it makes it easier to gain fat especially around the midsection.

你胖得越多，身体就把越多的睾酮转化成雌激素。

And the more fat you gain, the more your body converts testosterone into estrogen.

这就成了一个怎么也 break 不掉的恶性循环。

It just makes it a never ending cycle.

但 Mars Men 是一种天然补充剂，能帮助维持健康的睾酮水平，让你更有效地燃脂、长肌肉。

But Mars Men, it's a natural supplement designed to support healthy testosterone levels, helping your body burn fat and build lean muscle more efficiently.

没有那些奇怪的兴奋剂，只用像 Tongkat Ali、锌和硼这样的成分。

No weird stimulants, just ingredients like Tonga Ali, zinc, and boron.

我有几个朋友一直在吃这个。

Listen, I have friends that have taken this.

他们说精力更稳定了。

They're saying they have more consistent energy.

在健身房力量也变强了。

They're stronger in the gym.

专注力更好了，身体也稍微紧致了一些。

They have better focus, and they're leaning out a little bit as well.

食欲没那么旺盛了，恢复得更快，整体状态更佳。

Less cravings, better recovery, just more dialed in overall.

如果你感兴趣想试试，完全不用担心打针、注射或者用肽类物质。

And listen, if you're interested in trying this, it's something that again, you don't have to worry about needles and shots and peptides.

就只是吃一颗药丸而已。

It's just a pill.

直接送货上门，还提供90天无理由退款，一点风险都没有。

It's delivered to you and there's a ninety day money back guarantee, so there's no risk at all.

超过91%的使用者反馈精力提升了，评价都摆在那儿呢。

Over 91% of users report higher energy and the reviews speak for themselves.

限时优惠，我们的听众可享受终身五折、免运费，外加三份赠品，前往 mengotomars.com 即可领取。

For a limited time, our listeners get 50% off for life, free shipping, and three free gifts at men go to mars.com.

前往 mengotomars.com，结账时享受五折优惠，还能免费获得三份礼品。

That's mengo to mars.com for 50% off, three free gifts when you check out.

这款产品在亚马逊上也有售。

And it's also available on Amazon.

购买后，他们会问你是从哪里了解到他们的。

After you purchase, they will ask you where you heard about them.

请支持我们的节目和他们，是 Crypto101 推荐你的。

Please support our show and them crypto one zero one sent you.

再次提醒，限时优惠，我们的听众可享受终身五折、终身免运费，外加三份赠品。

Again, for a limited time, our listeners get 50% off and free shipping for life plus three free gifts.

去 mengotomars.com。

Go to mengotomars.com.

前往 mengotomars.com，结账时享受五折优惠，还能免费获得三份礼品。

That's mengotomars.com for 50% off and three free gifts when you check out.

另外，无论你在哪儿购买，都记得告诉他们这是Crypto 101推荐的。

Also, check them out on Amazon and wherever you purchase it, tell them crypto one zero one sent you.

是的。

Yeah.

当然。

Totally.

所以呢，普通人，比如街角小店的老板，或者任何有网络连接、符合监管要求的人，都可以去Spark Savings申请，第一个问题通常是：现在的有效联邦基金利率是多少？

And so, you know, folks will go, you know, mom and pop, random people, anybody kind of with an Internet connection that meets the jurisdictional requirements could go to Spark savings and generate, effective federal funds rate or, you know, what what's kind of that rate, is kind of like the first question.

这个利率是浮动的吗？

And is it variable?

然后你们把钱拿去寻找合作伙伴或者借款人，我猜中间肯定有一套审核流程。

And then y'all take the the money and then go look for, partners or borrowers, and then I imagine there's some kind of underwriting process.

毕竟这不是谁都能随便拿钱的，不能说谁来都能借。

Because it's not just like free for all, like, hey, anybody could take this money.

你们肯定有一套严格的流程，避免背上坏账。

There's like, you know, a a big process so that you guys don't get stuck with bad debt.

那整个流程到底是怎样的呢？

So what's that whole process look like that that

没错。

yeah.

说得对。

Exact take.

先说说收益吧。

So the like first about the yield.

目前USDC的收益率大概是3.65%，而USDT我们这边能拿到3%。

So on USDC, the yield is I think 3.65% right now and on USDT, we're generating 3%.

不同稳定币的收益率会有些差别。

So it varies a little bit on the stablecoins.

现在市场环境比较低迷。

Right now, current market conditions are quite bearish.

所以利率大概会跟SOFR差不多，可能略低一点。

So it's going be about SOFR, maybe a little bit less.

但在牛市行情下，利率可能会大幅上升。

But during bullish conditions, rates can go up quite a bit.

所以收益率甚至可能达到4%到5%。

So more like generating maybe even 4% or 5%.

这些收益其实来自另一边的借款人。

And this yield is coming from borrowers on the other side.

他们通常会用比特币或以太坊等加密资产做杠杆多头。

Usually they're going leveraged long on crypto assets like Bitcoin or ETH.

不过你提到的另一点也很关键，那就是风险控制框架。

But the other thing you touched on is it's very important, is the risk framework.

你不能随便投什么项目，就像你说的那样。

You can't just go into whatever you want, as you say.

平台对抵押品有一套特定的要求。

There is a particular set of collateral.

事实上，Spark在选择接受的抵押品时采取了相当保守的策略。

And in fact, Spark has taken a quite conservative look on the collateral that we accept.

我们更倾向于只关注四五种资产，通常是围绕比特币和以太坊，或者它们的流动性质押代币版本。

We prefer to just look at maybe a handful of four or five assets that we think are scalable surrounding Bitcoin and ETH usually or like a liquid staking token version of that.

就选一个最精简的组合，因为我们知道，如果抵押品种类太多，尾部风险会急剧增加。

Just like kind of a minimal set Because we know that there's lots of tail risks that can present themselves by having too wide an array of collateral selection.

你可能会忽略掉很多你根本没意识到的关联风险。

You basically have all these dependencies that you may or may not be aware about.

要是你得评估五十种不同的抵押品，想搞清楚每一种的细节，那简直是个不可能完成的任务。

Basically, being aware of all the details of every single collateral that you onboard when you have 50 different collateral, it's quite a challenging process.

所以，选择更小的范围，一直是我们认为最能体现我们优势的地方。

So, going with a smaller scope has been one of the things that we think has really differentiated ourselves.

尤其是经历了最近的市场波动后，更证明了这种精简抵押品策略有多关键。

And especially after the recent market conditions that happened, it goes to show that having this minimal collateral set can be quite important.

我们内部的借贷市场规模增长了不少。

And so we've seen a lot of growth in our internal lending markets.

Spark借贷平台的规模在过去一周里翻了一倍。

Spark lend basically doubled in size since last week.

很多用户正是因为我们的风险控制策略非常保守才选择加入。

A lot of people coming in precisely because of our quite conservative risk management process.

说实话，风险管理这个话题，我们能聊完整期播客。

But I mean, risk management, we could talk about this for the entire podcast, to be honest.

风险管理涉及的方面太多了，这需要你全身心投入，才能确保存款人的资金安全。

There is a lot of things involved with risk management and it is like a job you have to dedicate yourself to, to make sure that depositors are protected.

在Spark，我们所有的存款都由USDS作为 backing，它是目前市值第三大的稳定币，总存款额已超过一千一百亿美元。

But I will say within Spark, back all of our deposits with USDS, which is third largest stablecoin, now just higher than $11,000,000,000 in total deposits.

这背后还附带了保险保障。

So that also contains with it insurance.

不仅有强大的资产负债表为存款人提供保障，还有五层保险机制层层护航，从承担首笔损失的顶级机构，到面向公众开放的次级风险资本金库。

So not only do you have that balance sheet providing a lot of safety for depositors, You also have five layers of insurance that's backing this, going all the way from the star level who takes first loss to a junior risk capital vault that will be opened up to the public.

这是一个收益更高、但风险也更大的资金池，适合愿意承担更多风险的用户。

This is a higher yield vault for those who want a higher yield but are willing to take more risk.

这些用户会首先承担损失，之后才轮到USDS存款人，而Spark储蓄产品则位于USDS之上，享有最高层级的保护。

They'll be first on the hook before it goes back to USDS depositors and then Spark savings sits on top of the USDS.

所以我们希望这个产品能成为整个领域中最安全的收益选择。

So the idea is we really want this to be a quite safe, sort of the best safe yield opportunity in the space.

你获得的收益相当不错，但你的风险层级是最高优先级的，确保完全不会发生亏损。

You get a yield that's pretty good, but you're not taking, like you're basically as senior in the stack of risk as possible to make sure that there are no loss events.

是的。

Yeah.

不是。

No.

想想看，Sky的资产负债表加上USDS，居然能为这些借贷池提供如此强的保护，这真让人惊叹。

That's incredible to think about just like, you know, having the the balance sheet of Sky and the USDS as something that could help insulate these borrow lend pools.

我马上要提一下关于借款人的事，不过先插一句，过会儿我们会聊到，Kelp DAO和Aave出事的时候，大量用户从他们的平台撤资，转投了你们，因为你们是唯一一个在整场崩盘中Tether都稳稳锚定的池子。

And and I I wanna put a cap on this the borrower stuff in in in one second here, but I will allude to a conversation that we'll have here, in just a few moments about how, the Kelp Dow and the Aave debacle led to a lot of deposit flight from their model to you guys because you had the only, pool that Tether, kind of stayed pegged at throughout this whole, collapse.

我想知道你们是怎么做到这一点的。

I'm curious about how you guys manage that.

不过先说清楚一点，你们从不把这笔钱拿去投给任何企业。

But real quick to put a point on the borrowers, so you're never taking this money and going out to like businesses.

对吧？

Right?

比如去借给一些随机的企业，或者私募股权、私募信贷之类的？你们是这样做的吗？

Like random businesses or or, you know, private equity or private credit and, you know, or are you?

对吧？

Right?

然后你们去评估这些企业，判断在未来三到五年内，它们能带来更高的收益，这具体是怎么操作的？

And then underwriting these businesses and saying, okay, over the course of the next, you know, five years or three years, you guys could generate, you know, a greater yield and how is that work?

还是说你们只服务那些想做加密货币多头或空头的借款人？

Or is it just strictly borrowers who wanna go long or short crypto?

是的。

Yeah.

对我们Spark来说，主要专注在加密资产抵押贷款上。

So for us at Spark, like, we're very focused on, like, crypto backed loans primarily.

比如内部借贷市场，或者Anchorage的贷款，还有CD5的做市业务，这些都更多地面向中心化交易所这类机构。

So this could be like the internal lending market or the Anchorage loans or the CD5 prime brokerage, which has more exposure to like centralized exchanges, stuff like that.

但还是属于加密货币领域内的。

But it's still like within the crypto realm.

我觉得你提到的更像是现实世界资产那块。

I think what you're talking about is more like the real world asset side.

对，就像Sky在做的那样。

Yeah, like what Sky is doing.

他们出去给企业放贷，然后把这些贷款打包成资产。

They're, you know, they're going out and lending money to like businesses and putting those Yeah, shares on so

还有其他一些公司更专注于这个方向，比如Grove和Obex。

there are other stars that are more focused on this like Grove and Obex.

你可能已经看到过他们的一些公告。

I'm sure you've maybe seen some announcements from them.

所以这就是STAR系统的巧妙之处，我们可以专心专注于加密货币这一块。

Yeah, so this is kind of the beauty of the STAR system is that we can just dedicate ourselves more to the crypto side.

这正是我们的专长。

This is our expertise.

我以前是智能合约开发者。

I'm an ex smart contract developer.

这方面我们才真正得心应手。

This is where we feel at home.

其他团队如果更擅长私人信贷和传统金融，就可以专注那些相关的机会。

And the other teams that are maybe more private credit traditional finance expertise, they can focus on more of that side of the opportunities that are available.

这其实就是分工协作的策略。

So it's really like a divide and conquer strategy.

不过，Sky整体已经布局了现实世界资产，目前主要是国库券，也有些AAA级CLO的敞口。

But yeah, Sky as a whole is already deployed into real world assets, mainly treasury bills right now, some exposure to AAA CLOs.

而且我觉得，私人信贷也会越来越成为这个领域的重要部分。

But yeah, I think private credit is also something that's going to be increasingly a part of the space.

其实，随着传统金融逐步上链，它和传统金融的操作方式也不会有太大区别。

And really, I mean, it's not going to be that differentiated from the way traditional finance works as TradFi continues to come on chain.

结算速度、透明度这些区块链能带来的优势，相比传统金融的运作方式，效率提升是巨大的。

The benefits of settlement time, transparency, everything that the blockchain can offer, it's just a huge efficiency improvement over the way TradFi normally works.

我不是说明天就会发生，但我坚信，未来一切都会被代币化，所有银行在十年到十五年内都将主要通过区块链进行交易。

So I'm not saying it's going happen tomorrow, but I'm a big believer everything's going to be tokenized and all the banks will be ten, fifteen years will be largely transacting on blockchain rails.

一旦有这么多代币化的现实资产，你觉得Spark会拿它们来做借贷，或者以某种方式参与其中吗？比如代币化的ETF、代币化的企业，还有代币化的国债等等，这些都在陆续出现。

And once there are so many tokenized RWAs, do you imagine Spark lending against those or, you know, touching them in some capacity, once you have, you know, tokenized ETFs, tokenized, you know, businesses, and and all that kind of stuff, and tokenized T bills and all this stuff is is happening.

但这些变化会在哪个环节影响到你们的业务？

But where might that kind of touch your business?

当然了。

Yeah, for sure.

我觉得现在大家对这些概念还分得很细，比如早期总在问：什么是加密货币，什么是现实资产代币。

I think there's all these distinctions because it's kind of like early on, what is crypto, what is an RWA.

就连行业内的人，对‘现实资产代币’到底指什么，也常常说法不一。

I think even you talk to people in the industry, what is an RWA is not always unanimous about what even is that.

所以未来，重点不会是某个技术——比如一个ETF是链上资产还是别的什么——来定义区别。

So I think these things are going be less about what is the technology that is connecting as an ETF, is it like an on chain asset?

所有这些最终都会融合成统一的金融体系，我们的能力也会跟着一起进化。

It's going to all just converge to just finance in general, and our competencies will evolve along with this.

我太喜欢了。

I love it.

刚才我们刚简单聊过这事。

Was just talking briefly before this.

我之前跟Chainlink的首席业务官Johan Aide聊过，他对代币化整体非常看好。

I was talking to Chainlink's chief business officer, Johan Aide, and he was very bullish on tokenization as a whole.

他还跟我们详细讲了这些。

And he was talking to us about it.

他说他们帮助很多机构把这套体系搭起来，让它真正能落地。

He's like, we help, like, a lot of these people connect this and make it possible.

他认为这前景非常光明，不过我觉得这正好能引出我们下一点——他提到，目前最核心的关注点是安全问题。

And he thinks it has a really bright future, but one of the I guess this will fit into our next point, but he was like, one of the big focuses right now is security.

安全才是关键，他说这在一定程度上拖慢了整个进程。

Security is the name of the game, and he says that's somewhat holding these people back from what it could be.

他说，一方面是安全问题，另一方面也是因为还没能充分创造需求，让这些代币化资产真正比传统资产更有优势。

He said it's partially security, but also partially just creating the demand where these tokenized assets are better than their traditional counterparts.

不过，就像我们待会儿要聊的，安全确实是个关键问题。

But, yeah, I mean, as we'll probably talk about here in just a second, it sounds like, you know, security really is a big point.

你觉得你们在这方面看法也一致吗？

But would you say you guys share kind of the same vision on that?

当然了，完全同意。

Yeah, for sure.

尤其是最近这么多黑客事件，安全问题已经成了焦点。

I mean, security, especially now with all of these hacks happening lately, really has taken the center stage.

不过要说的话，只要遵循行业里的最佳实践，其实还是有不少办法能有效防范这类攻击的。

I'll say though, if you're following best practices in the space, there is actually relatively good practices that can keep you safe from these types of hacks.

从一开始，Sky就一直遵循这些最佳实践。

And Sky from the beginning has been following a lot of these best practices.

比如时间锁机制，就能大大降低你被盯上的风险。

So things like time locks actually give you make you not a target by a huge amount.

如果你用的是没有时间锁的多重签名钱包来托管资产，那风险就很高了，很容易成为朝鲜政府黑客的主要目标。

So if you have multi sigs that have no time locks that are basically custodying assets, this is quite a dangerous setup and makes you a target of the DPRK, which is primarily the state actor that's involved here.

其实我们早就知道一些方法可以降低这些风险。

So there are techniques that we've known about for a while to mitigate these risks.

关键在于整个行业都得更认真地落实这些最佳实践。

And really it's just a matter of everybody in the industry needs to more seriously be following these best practices.

就拿上周的Kelp Dow事件来说，那里出了不少问题。

If you take the case of the Kelp Dow incident last week, there was a number of issues there.

他们用的是单签的DVN。

They were using a one of one DVN.

他们的跨链桥没有设置速率限制。

They didn't have rate limits on the bridge.

Aave那边也没设速率限制。

Aave also didn't have rate limits.

其实有很多地方本来是可以改进的。

So there's a number of things that could have been done.

这些都只是最基本的最佳实践。

These are just basic best practices.

所以我们所有人都得提升一下，才能避免这类事件再发生。

And so I think we all just need to level up so that these incidents don't happen.

即使Spark没有直接受影响，但一旦大家看到这种事，整个行业都会受牵连，这对谁都没好处。

Because even though Spark wasn't affected directly, the whole space gets affected when people see these things and it's not really good for anyone.

我天性比较乐观。

And so I'm an optimist by nature.

我希望我们能把这次事件当作一次深刻的教训，推动整个行业成熟起来，真正推动Tridentify的普及。

I'm hopeful that we take this as a very serious learning experience and we need to mature as a space to get Tridentify adoption.

是的，我特别想深入分析一下这次事件到底是怎么发生的，尤其是你们当时是怎么应对的。

Yeah, I definitely want to start to chip away here at breaking down what happened with this and particularly how you guys were navigating it.

不过为了听众能更清楚，我的理解是，有人黑了Kelp DAO，伪造了大量的流动性质押代币，然后跑到Aave那儿说：‘我这里有三亿美元的流动性质押代币。’

But kind of for our listeners, the way I understand it is that, you know, somebody kind of hacked Kelp DAO and counterfeited a lot of their, liquid staking token and then went to Aave and was like, hey, I got, you know, $300,000,000 of those liquid staking token.

让我拿这些当抵押借点钱。

Let me take a borrow against it.

Aave那边没仔细核对，结果发现天啊，我手上全是假币，可我已经把三亿美元的真钱借出去了。

Aave sat with it and then realized, oh my god, I have counterfeit stuff and I just gave away, you know, $300,000,000 of non counterfeit stuff.

然后黑客把钱卷走，Aave 就背上了坏账。

Then the hackers ran away with it and Aave gets stuck with the bad debt.

接着，大家就得为这笔损失负责。

And then, you know, people are kind of on the hook for that.

第一，这样概括事件经过准确吗？

A, is that an accurate sort of representation, simplification of kind of what happened?

第二，你们的系统是怎么防止这种事发生的？

And then, b, how did you guys or how does your model make sure stuff like that doesn't happen?

没错。

Yeah.

你对事件的描述基本准确。

So I think that's a fairly accurate representation of what happened.

对我们来说，有几个关键点确保了我们的借贷市场——也就是 Spark 平台——虽然和 Aave 模式类似，但在这些方面有重要区别。

So for us, there's a couple of points that we make sure our internal lending market, Spark land, which is a similar model to Aave, we have a number of differences that I think are quite important in this regard.

首先是抵押品的准入机制。

So first and foremost, collateral onboarding.

我们只允许少数几种高信誉、大规模的抵押品。

We keep a very restricted set of high trust, high scale collateral.

偶尔会增加一两种，但都会严格限制使用条件。

And occasionally, will add a few more, but we keep them in very restricted modes.

所以我们从一开始就没把Kelp DAO的ETH版本纳入高杠杆交易范围。

So right away, we never onboarded the Kelp DAO version of ETH into a high leverage mode into the market.

我觉得他们最大的失误，就是让这种抵押品在市场里规模膨胀到数十亿美元。

So this is one of the mistakes I would say all they did is allowing this kind of collateral to be at billions in size in their market in the first place.

对我们来说，从来就没有过这样的风险敞口。

So for us, we never had this kind of exposure.

我们早在一月份就移除了这种抵押品。

We also off boarded this collateral back in January.

它带来的交易量其实很有限。

It wasn't generating that much business.

而且如我所说，长期保留这么多抵押品会带来尾部风险。

And as I mentioned, having all these collateral present for a long period of time can present tail risk.