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你一直有个商业点子，但还没行动。
You've been sitting on a business idea.
Shopify 就是让你把想法真正实现的地方。
Shopify is the place where you can actually make it real.
我喜欢 Shopify 的一点，就是它把创业初期的恐惧感给消除了。
The thing I like about Shopify is it takes the scary part out of starting.
你不用光坐在那儿琢磨网站怎么搭、支付怎么设、结账流程怎么弄、库存怎么管——这些琐事拦住了太多人，让他们根本迈不出第一步。
You're not just sitting there trying to figure out a website, payments, checkout, inventory, all these little things that stop people before they even launch.
我一想到开网店，最头疼的就是流程太卡顿。
When I think about building a storefront, the biggest thing is friction.
你希望顾客一进页面，看到你卖的东西就喜欢，然后能顺顺当当地买走，别被卡在半路。
You want someone to land on your page, like what you're selling, and be able to buy without getting stuck.
Shopify 在这一点上特别厉害。
That's where Shopify is huge.
Shopify 的结账系统就是为了帮更多顾客顺利完成购买，而且他们下次再来时，信息都自动保存好了。
Shopify checkout is built to help more customers finish their purchase, and when they come back, their details are already saved.
点一下就搞定。
One tap and they're done.
厉害的是，Shopify 支撑着全球数百万家企业，从你熟知的大品牌比如美泰和 Gymshark，到刚起步的小生意都包括在内。
The cool part is Shopify powers millions of businesses worldwide from huge brands that you know, like Mattel and Gymshark to small businesses just getting started.
不管你是在打造下一个大品牌，还是第一次推出产品，底层的基础设施都已经备好了。
So whether you're building the next big brand or launching your first product, the infrastructure is already there.
一旦这些技术问题解决了，你就能专心做真正重要的事——打造品牌、吸引关注、把人引到你的店铺，让生意慢慢成长。
Once that part is handled, you can focus on the real work, building the brand, getting attention, and bringing people to your storefront so the business can grow.
当有人真正下单的那一刻，你的想法才真正变成了现实。
That moment when someone actually buys, that's when the idea becomes real.
有了 Shopify，你的想法和一家真正的生意之间再没有任何障碍，赶紧去把它变成现实吧。
With Shopify, nothing stands between your idea and a real business, so go make it one.
今天就去 shopify.com/crypto10one 开始你的免费试用。
Start your free trial today at shopify.com/crypto10one.
免费试用就在 shopify.com/crypto10one。
That's a free trial at shopify.com/crypto10one.
你有没有想过，哪些经济力量在影响着你的日常生活？
Are you curious about the economic forces shaping your daily life?
NPR的《Planet Money》播客，用你听得懂、也爱听的方式解读经济。
The Planet Money podcast from NPR makes sense of the economy in ways you'll actually understand and enjoy.
兄弟们，你们不是最爱听这些总结吗？
Guys, you love listening to the rundowns.
我最近就是从NPR的《Planet Money》播客里了解到一些信息，特别是关于霍尔木兹海峡的战事。
I get some of that information from this NPR Planet Money podcast, especially, recently with the war going on, the Strait Of Hormuz.
你就能随时收到他们发来的最新动态。
You're just kinda getting those updates as they come from these guys.
他们出了大量特别棒的内容。
They put out a ton of awesome content.
虽然跟《Crypto 101》的角度不一样，但听上去一样精彩。
It's a different perspective from Crypto one zero one, but still a great listen.
如果你对时事和金融世界感兴趣，不妨去听听《Planet Money》播客。
So go over there and check out the Planet Money podcast if stuff like current events and the finance world interest you.
Planet Money 每一期节目都从一个问题开始。
Each story on Planet Money starts with a question.
最近几期问了为什么精灵宝可梦卡片的价格涨得比你的退休金还快。
Recent episodes ask why Pokemon cards are growing faster than your retirement count.
就像我们刚才聊的，最近节目里也频繁谈到战争相关的问题。
Questions about the war just like we talked about, recently a lot on our program.
从就业市场到股市，再到超市里的物价，Planet Money 都给你讲得明明白白。
From the job market to the stock market to prices at the supermarket, Planet Money explains it all.
在这里，复杂的经济变得容易理解，真实的人的故事比抽象理论更重要，让你边学边笑，轻松有趣。
Planet Money is a different kind of world where the complex economy somehow makes sense, where human stories supersede abstract theories so you can learn, laugh, and be entertained.
这是经济学，但接地气得很。
It's econ, but just down to earth.
主持人为了讲清楚经济，常常想出各种稀奇古怪的办法。
The hosts go to unusual lengths to explain the economy.
他们还出了一本书，专门追踪全球供应链。
They've published their own book to track the global supply chain.
他们甚至把一颗卫星送入太空，只为弄清楚私营航天业的经济逻辑。
They've shot a satellite into space to understand the economics of the private space industry.
他们潜入一场现场图书拍卖，展示创意是如何进入市场的。
They've gone inside a live book auction to show how ideas get to market.
这档节目就是让你边学边笑，听完后看世界的眼光都不一样了。
It's the kind of show where you learn something, probably laugh, and walk away seeing the world a little differently.
如果你喜欢《加密货币入门》，那你一定会喜欢《Planet Money》。
And I think if you like Crypto one zero one, you'll enjoy Planet Money.
不妨去听听看。
So maybe check that out.
关注NPR的《Planet Money》播客，了解金钱如何塑造这个世界。
Follow NPR's Planet Money podcast and understand how money shapes the world.
好了，各位。
Alright, everybody.
欢迎回到《加密货币入门》的又一期节目。
Welcome back to another episode of the Crypto one zero one podcast.
我是你的联合主持人布赖斯，今天还是和我的好朋友布伦丹一起。
I'm your cohost, Bryce, as always, joined by my good buddy, Brendan.
最近怎么样，老兄？
How's it going, my man?
特别棒。
It's fantastic.
说实话，我对这期节目特别期待。
Tell you what, I'm stoked for this podcast.
我知道听众们也会喜欢，因为我们收到了很多问题。
I know the listeners are gonna like this one too because we get lots of questions.
是的。
Yes.
definitely。
Big time.
我知道你在Base链上最大的去中心化交易所Aerodrome上交易非常活跃。
And I know you are a very, very active trader on Aerodrome, which is the largest decentralized exchange on Base.
真是让人惊叹，现在发生的一切。
Incredible about what's going on.
我确实玩过Aerodrome，但我知道你一直在搭建流动性池，做着特别疯狂的策略。
I've certainly tinkered with Aerodrome, but I know you're setting up liquidity pools and doing insane strategies.
所以还有什么人比Dromos Labs的创始人、CEO亚历克斯·卡特勒更适合请来呢？他负责开发了Aerodrome、Velodrome，还有这么多令人惊叹的加密技术。
And so who better to bring on, than essentially the founder of Dromos Labs, the CEO of Dromos Labs labs, Alex Cutler, who's responsible for developing Aerodrome and Velodrome and so many incredible technologies here in crypto.
亚历克斯，欢迎来到节目。
Alex, welcome to the show.
嗨，各位。
Hey, guys.
非常感谢你们邀请我，听说今天节目里有不少活跃用户，真高兴听到这个。
Thanks so much, for for having me, and, glad to hear we've got some, active users on the the pod today.
确实如此。
Oh, indeed.
没错。
Indeed.
你看。
Look.
Base 一出来就势头很猛，几年前就炸了，而 Aerodrome 一直是那里的流动性中心。
Base has been you know, they blew onto the scene, in a big way a couple years back, and, you know, Aerodrome has been the hub for liquidity there.
咱们先稍微退一步，简单说说。
So we wanna kinda just take one quick step back.
不用整个节目都讲这个，就花几分钟，让大家认识一下你。
We don't need to spend the whole episode on it, but just a few minutes just getting introduced to you.
你到底是谁？
You know, who are you?
你是怎么开始创办 Dromos Labs 的？
How'd you kinda come into building, Dromos Labs?
顺便说说，从 Velodrome 到 Aerodrome 是怎么过渡的？为什么选了 Base？先给我们勾勒一下背景，咱们再深入聊。
And let's kinda color this with, the the transition from Velodrome to Aerodrome, why you chose Base, and kinda give us that lay of the land before we dive in.
对。
Yeah.
好的。
Yeah.
很高兴能先说点背景。
Happy to, yeah, start with a little bit of background.
就像很多在加密和去中心化金融领域做建设的人一样，既然我们站在前沿，这条路从来就不是一帆风顺的，对吧？
So, you know, I think like many builders in crypto and DeFi, since we're out here on the frontier, you know, it's been anything other than a straight line, right?
我最初的职业生涯是在政治和竞选领域，做过州级和联邦级的工作，后来才转到科技行业。
So I started my career initially working in politics and campaigns at both the state and federal level, shifted from that into technology.
我在苹果工作了大约六年，那是一段非常珍贵的经历。
So I got to spend about six years working for Apple, which was an extraordinary privilege.
之后我又在一家类似IDEO的精品咨询公司待了六年，服务过多个行业，但主要还是聚焦在科技领域。
Spent another six years working in kind of an IDEO style boutique consultancy, working across a variety of industries, but still primarily, you know, focused on the tech side.
因此我有机会接触过Meta、微软，也更深地参与了苹果等项目。
So I got exposure, of course, to Meta, to Microsoft, deeper into Apple and things like that.
我觉得我真正开始涉足链上世界，其实是从疫情开始的。
And I think the beginning of my journey on chain was really the pandemic, right?
那时候我们都困在家里，没什么事可做。
And we were all, of course, locked inside our homes, not much to do.
于是我偶然开始做这件事，因为我自己组装了一台游戏电脑。
And so I started really accidentally because I built a gaming PC.
我已经好多年没碰过这种事了，自从 teenage 时候就没再搞过。
You know, I hadn't done something like that since I was a teenager.
但既然被困在家里，不建台电脑打打游戏，还能干嘛呢？
But you know, when locked in a house, why not build a PC and play some video games?
等我弄好之后，其实有个朋友早就一直跟我提加密货币和去中心化金融的事。
And so once I did that, you know, I had had a friend in my ear for a long time about crypto and DeFi.
说实话，我当时真没觉得这有什么道理。
I would not say it made a ton of sense to me.
我想大家应该都记得那种时刻——你遇到第一个狂热推广者，他跟你讲比特币或者DeFi有多厉害，这技术能打开什么新世界，但你就是听不进去，直到他突然说：‘你不如用这台游戏机去挖矿试试？’
And I think we all kind of remember that moment when these things would, you know, you'd meet that first evangelist, right, he'd tell you about the amazing things happening, whether it's, you know, Bitcoin or DeFi and and what this technology unlocks, but didn't really hear it until I was like, he was like, well, you should just use that gaming PC to start mining, right?
我就这么干了，趁它没用来玩《赛博朋克2077》或者《火箭联盟》那些游戏的时候，开始挖矿。
And so I did, I started mining, you know, when it was, you know, not being used to play cyberpunk, and Rocket League and other things.
那真是个特别的时刻，对吧？
And that was an extraordinary moment, right?
因为那时候感觉你是在凭空创造价值，当然，还得算上电力那些开销。
Because it felt like you were creating value from nothing, you know, certainly, you know, the energy and things like that.
但那也是个牛市狂飙的时期，你手里的东西动不动就涨百分之十、二十，甚至更多。
But that was also a moment kind of rip roaring bull market where everything you own would go up, you know, 10%, 20%, and up from there.
那确实很惊人，不过你管这叫入门阶段，对吧？
So that was pretty incredible, but you call it kind of the gateway, right?
然后我就开始想，这些代币到底有什么用？
And then it was like, well, what is the purpose of these tokens?
它们能干什么？
What do they do?
到了2021年，DeFi夏天来了，那些代币才真正上线运行，那时候我才算真正搞懂了。
And then that's when I, you know, in 2021, kind of DeFi summer brought those tokens on chain, right?
从那以后，我才开始用这些代币去参与各种项目。
And that's when I started to use those tokens to like get involved in things.
所以字面意思就是，我现在在Aerodrome上提供流动性，会去获取Curve代币或者Convex代币，把它们锁定起来，参与这些协议。
So exactly what it sounds like, right now it has been doing on Aerodrome, I started providing liquidity, right, I go out and I procure curve tokens, right, or convex tokens, I lock those tokens, I participate in those protocols.
然后这些协议会无须授权地奖励我，因为我为整个系统贡献了价值。
And then those protocols reward me permissionlessly, right, for my contribution of value to that overall system.
而且我觉得这种回报是持续不断发生的。
And I think it happens even stream.
对，就是这样。
Yeah, exactly.
你一感受到这种机制，对吧？
As soon as you feel that, right?
根本不需要征得任何人的同意。
You didn't have to ask anyone's permission.
没有哪个中心化机构来决定你值不值，你只要在贡献价值，系统就会按比例给你回报。
You know, there's no centralized party, kind of telling you what you're worth or not worth, you're just adding value and then getting value out proportional to your contribution.
那一刻对我来说就像灯泡突然亮了。
That was like a light bulb off, going off sort of moment for me.
我当时就知道，我想做的就是彻底深入这个DeFi世界。
And I knew all I wanted to do was to go as deep into this world of DeFi as possible.
然后辞掉工作，其实也没啥计划，压根没想到自己最后会创办一家公司，或者开发一个协议。
And quit my job, not really with any plan, I certainly would have had no idea that I was going to end up, you know, founding a company or, or building a protocol.
但深入进去之后，在Discord里认识了几个其他人，我们都是同一个DAO的成员。
But just in going deep in, met, you know, a handful of other guys in the Discord, you know, we are all part of a DAO.
那是Phantom上一个叫Solidly的去中心化交易所的子DAO。
That was a sub DAO of a DEX called solidly on on Phantom.
我们发现了一个机会，可以基于创始人Andre打下的基础，去打造一个新的DEX。
And we saw an opportunity to take those foundations that the founder of that Andre had created to launch a DEX, right?
我们在Optimism上的Velodrome上改进了这个模式，大胆押注——我们认为DeFi下一个增长爆发点将是以太坊L2。
Sort of improving on that model in Velodrome on Optimism, betting pretty hard on, we thought the next big area of growth in DeFi was gonna be Ethereum L2s.
所以我们决定在Optimism上构建，那时候它已经是顶级的以太坊L2之一。
So, you know, we wanted to build on Optimism then which was one of the top Eth L2s.
Velodrome很快就成了Optimism上最大的去中心化交易所，这意义重大，因为我们五个无名之辈，没融过一分钱，却突然开始挑战那些估值数十亿美元的巨头，在Optimism这片小天地里。
And, know, Velodrome quickly became the largest DEX on Optimism, which was a huge deal because, you know, we were five unknowns who didn't raise any money and, know, suddenly we're taking on billion dollar incumbents and, you know, certainly in our own little neighborhood and optimism.
但这样一来，当我们看到Coinbase要上线链上、推出自己的以太坊二层网络时，我们就已经占了先机。
But then that meant we were well positioned when we saw Coinbase was gonna come on chain, they were gonna build an ETHL too.
他们需要我们这种流动性基础设施。
You know, they needed the type of liquidity infrastructure that our product provided.
所以我们投入了大量精力，在Base上推出了Aerodrome，作为它的姊妹协议。
And so, yeah, we put a ton of effort into deploying Aerodrome as sort of a sister protocol on Base.
当然，后面的事大家都知道了，Base很快就成了历史上最成功的链之一，只用了一年就登顶全球最大的以太坊二层网络。
And of course, I think the rest is history, know, Base become one of the single most successful chains in history, took about a year for them to become the top ETH L2 in the world.
我们和他们紧密合作，共同打造了Base上的交易和流动性基础设施。
And we have worked very closely with them in power trading and liquidity infrastructure on base.
因此，Aerodrome每天的交易量都稳居链上去中心化交易所的前二或前三。
And so that has meant that, you know, Aerodrome, depending on the day is the second or third largest decentralized exchange anywhere on chain.
这段经历真的非常不可思议。
So it's been a pretty incredible journey.
对。
Yeah.
我想再深入聊聊这个，尤其是在上一轮牛市最火热的时候，可供选择的项目多得数不清。
I wanna dive into that a little bit more because there especially in the heat of the last bull market, there were so many different options to choose from.
我说的不只是 Layer 2。
And I'm not just talking about l twos.
对吧？
Right?
那轮牛市里，好多 Layer 2 都特别火。
There's there's there's a lot of really hot l twos in the last bull market.
当时有不少项目还陆续发了自己的代币。
There were different ones that were launching their tokens in that time period.
但那时候，主链也有一大堆。
But also just And a million l ones.
哦，我刚才打断你了。
Oh, I I guess I cut you off.
我本来想说，像 Solana、Sui 这样的主链，当时也特别多。
I was gonna say a bunch of l ones, like Solana, Sai, Souei.
没错。
Exactly.
这让开发者们有了太多选择，简直可以随便挑：选这个、那个、或者那个都行。
And it made it so I think for developers, they had ample opportunities and options to say, oh, I could choose this or this or this or that.
你想做什么项目，都能找到合适的平台。
And you could have had your your hands on anything and everything.
当时任何一条公链、任何二层方案你都能选，可你还是决定说：嘿。
You could have chosen any l one, any l two, but you still decided to say, hey.
我们已经在 Velodrome 上取得成功了。
We've we've seen success with Velodrome.
在这么多选项里，我们最终选了它。
We're going to choose between all the options we have.
我们决定押注 Base。
We're gonna choose base.
你能再具体说说吗？为什么没选别的链？为什么偏偏锁定 Base？
Can you narrow us in a little bit more about maybe why you didn't choose other locations or specifically why you decided to double down on base?
你知道什么最拖慢团队进度吗？
You know what slows teams down more than anything?
不一定是人手、预算，甚至也不是工具本身。
It's not always headcount budget or even the tools themselves.
真正拖后腿的是，工作方法只藏在某个人脑子里，从没被写下来。
It's when the way work gets done lives in someone's head and never actually gets documented.
一旦新人加入、新平台上线，或者同事离职，大家就开始用不同的方式做同样的事。
Then someone new joins, a new platform gets rolled out, or a teammate leaves, and suddenly everyone's doing the same process in a different way.
今天赞助我们的Scribe，正是为了解决这个问题而生的。
That's exactly the problem today's sponsor, Scribe, was built to solve.
Scribe是一个工作流AI平台，能实时捕捉任何流程，自动生成一步步的操作指南。
Scribe is a workflow AI platform that captures any workflow in real time and turns it into a step by step documentation automatically.
你只要装上插件，像往常一样操作，Scribe就会自动记录每一个点击、每一步操作和截图。
You just turn on the extension, do the process like you normally would, and Scribe builds the guide as you go, capturing every click, step, and screenshot.
它已经获得超过八万家企业的信赖，包括近一半的《财富》500强公司。
And it's already trusted by over 80,000 enterprises, including nearly half of the Fortune 500.
我们团队是远程的，我确实多次不得不向同事重复解释同样的设置或流程，每次都觉得这事第一次就该写下来才对。
With our team being remote, I have definitely had moments where I've had to explain the same setup or process more than once to a colleague, and it always feels like something that should have been documented the first time.
用了Scribe，原本要花好几个小时写文档、截屏、整理的工作，一分钟内就能准备好分享。
With Scribe, what could take hours of writing, screenshots, and cleanup can be ready to share in under a minute.
Scribe还会自动模糊截图里的敏感信息，比如姓名、邮箱和账号号码。
Scribe also automatically redacts sensitive information like names, emails, and account numbers from screenshots.
管理员可以统一设置这项功能，确保团队里没人漏掉安全细节。
Admins can enforce that across the team so nothing slips through the cracks.
而且，任何人在执行流程时，都能看到实时的屏幕指引，清楚知道该点哪里。
Plus, anyone following the process can get real time on screen guidance showing exactly where to click inside the actual tool.
Scribe不只是记录流程。
And Scribe doesn't just document workflows.
它还能用AI建议优化方式，帮你发现重复步骤、瓶颈和可以简化的地方。
It uses AI to suggest ways to improve them, helping you spot redundant steps, bottlenecks, and places to simplify.
想预约个性化的企业演示，请访问 scribe.howcrypto100one。
To book a personalized enterprise demo, visit scribe.howcrypto100one.
这就是Scribe。
That's scribe.
How/crypto10one。
How/crypto10one.
我特别喜欢夏天的一点，就是一切都变得简单多了。
One thing I love about summer is everything's just getting easier.
你待在户外的时间更多了。
You're outside more.
你去度假，这时候也不用费劲琢磨每一套穿搭。
You're taking vacations, and it's the time where you're really not trying to overthink every outfit.
你只想要舒服、好穿，偶尔还带点酷感的衣服。
You just want stuff that feels good, works, and sometimes is a little cool.
所以我一直回头选Quince。
That's why I keep coming back to Quince.
他们做的那些衣服，一整个夏天你都会不停地穿。
They make those pieces that you end up just wearing all season.
对我来说，就是那件100%欧洲亚麻衬衫配上同款亚麻长裤。
For me, it's the 100% European linen shirt and the matching linen pants.
这已经成了我度假时最常穿的搭配。
That has become one of my go to beach vacation outfits.
好多人见了都夸我穿得好看。
I've gotten so many compliments on it.
透气性特别好。
It's breathable.
穿起来特别舒服。
It's comfortable.
看起来挺有型，但又不紧绷，很放松。
It looks put together, but it still feels relaxed.
从早到晚在海滩上待着，傍晚沿着海边散步看日落，再直接去吃晚饭，整个人都自在，还一点都不邋遢。
You can literally wear this thing going to the beach all day, walking by the water for a sunset, and then head straight to dinner later feeling completely comfortable and looking fashionable.
这正是Quince最拿手的地方。
And that's really what Quince does well.
他们的纯欧洲亚麻裤子和衬衫穿起来特别轻松，夏天穿再合适不过，价格还惊人地实惠。
They're 100% European linen pants and shirts are easy to wear, perfect for summer, and the price is unbelievable.
而且最低只要34美元起。
And they start at literally just $34.
他们还有柔软的T恤，一整天都能穿，再加上轻薄的棉质毛衣，晚上气温稍降时穿刚刚好。
They also have soft tees you can wear all day plus lightweight cotton sweaters that are perfect for when the temperature drops a little at night.
Quince的所有商品定价都比同类品牌低百分之五十到八十。
Everything at Quince is priced 50 to 80% less than similar brands.
他们直接与道德工厂合作，省去中间商，所以你付的钱买的是高品质，而不是品牌溢价。
They work directly with ethical factories and cut out the middleman, so you're paying for exceptional quality, not the brand markup.
这还不只是衣服。
And it's not just clothing.
Quince已经成了人们信赖的品牌，不仅买衣服，连家居、旅行和日常用品也选他们。
Quince has become one of those brands people trust for home, travel, and everyday essentials too.
你以前应该听过我提到过他们的网站。
You've heard me talk about their website before.
刷起来特别有意思。
It's super fun to scroll around.
他们真的什么都有。
They literally have everything.
让你的夏日衣橱更轻松吧。
So make your summer wardrobe easier.
现在访问 quince.com/crypto101，下单享免运费，而且加拿大也支持365天无理由退换。
Go to quince.com/crypto101 for free shipping on your order and three hundred and sixty five day returns now available in Canada too.
访问 quince.com/crypto101，享受免运费和365天退换服务。
That's quince.com/crypto101 for free shipping and three hundred sixty five day returns.
quince.com/crypto10one。
Quince.com/crypto10one.
是啊，这是个好问题。
Yeah, it's a great question.
我的意思是，这其实从我们刚开始构想Velodrome的时候就开始了，对吧？
I mean, that really starts when we were just beginning to imagine Velodrome, right?
我们在Phantom上是个子DAU，而Phantom原本是Solidly的一个老项目。
So we are a subDAU on Phantom, which is of course an old l one of Solidly.
现在它叫Sonic了，没错，后来改名叫Sonic了。
Now it's called Sonic, Yeah, but it became Sonic.
对，没错，就是这样。
Yes, yeah, right.
那时候我们知道自己有不错的技术，但对Solidly或者Phantom的前景并不看好。
And so we knew that we had some interesting technology and we, you know, didn't sort of like the prospects of solidly or Phantom at that point.
但那时整个行业的焦点都还在其他L1链上。
But that was still a point in which all of the energy was around Alt L1s.
当时Optimism和Arbitrum是两大主流的以太坊二层方案，人人都说，如果你有这项技术，总得找个地方部署。
And so Optimism and Arbitrum being the two like leading eth l twos at that time, like, everybody was saying, you know, if you're going to take this technology, you're going to deploy it somewhere.
那你肯定得去Avalanche。
So you got to go to avalanche, right?
或者留在Phantom，找下一个热门的L1链来部署。
You got to go stay on Phantom, you got to look for that next big ult l one to go deploy on.
从一开始，我们就想做的是什么呢？
And what we've tried to do from the very beginning, right?
限制反而帮了我们大忙。
So constraints are really helpful.
因为我们没融过资，资源极度紧张，就几个在Discord里的人，只能孤注一掷。
So because we didn't raise any money, because we were extremely resource constrained, because we were just a handful of folks in the Discord, we had to place a bet, right?
我们不可能哪儿都去，必须选一个方向押注。
We couldn't just go anywhere and everywhere, we had to place a bet.
我们的赌注是，哪怕整个市场崩盘——而事实也确实崩了，Velodrome上线那天，正好撞上Luna崩盘。
And our bet was that even if the cycle collapsed, which famously it did, and the day like Velodrome went live, it was like straight into the Luna collapse.
那段时间，整整六个月，可以说是行业里最痛苦的时期之一。
So this was like, you know, the beginning of like six months of some of the worst pain you know, we've ever felt in the industry.
但我们想押一个赛道，就算整体市场缩水，它也有潜力继续增长。
But we wanted to bet on a sector of the on chain economy that we thought had the potential to grow even as the overall pie was shrinking.
等市场重新回暖时，这个赛道的增长会远超其他领域。
And that when the pie started to grow again, that the growth would happen in a disproportionate way in that area.
所以我们押注在了ETHL2上。
So our bet was on ETHL2s.
我们认为它融合了那些替代性L1的优势——便宜、快速，还有原生代币来激励增长和活跃度，同时也继承了以太坊的网络效应、安全性和其他所有好处。
We thought it combined a lot of what made these Alt L1s successful and cheap and fast and you know, a native token to help incentivize, you know, growth and activity with the benefits and network effects and security and all that sort of stuff of Ethereum.
我们的第一个押注对象是Optimism，就是基于这个判断。
So our first bet was Optimism, right, as a bet on that thesis.
后来我们得到了验证，对吧？
And we were validated, right?
因为以前大家总说你得去那些地方部署，看看那些小角落，干嘛要上一条没人用的链？
Because almost every one of those old L1s that people were saying you had to go, you know, deploy here, look at this tiny corner, why would you deploy to a dead chain?
可现在那些链基本都死了，对吧？
Well, those are mainly dead chains now, right?
所有那些所谓的机会也都消失了。
And all of that sort of stuff went away.
我们本来预期这个泡沫迟早会破灭。
And we were expecting that bubble to pop in many ways.
从那以后，正好回应你刚才的问题，我们其实有很多其他选择。
And so after that point, exactly to your your question here, we had a lot of options of other places we could go.
说实话，到那时候，因为我们已经取得了惊人的成功，尽管起步很普通，所以有很多财务上的诱惑——总有人找上门来，给我们支票，想让我们去他们的链上部署。
And, frankly, by that point, because we had achieved a, you know, stunning degree of success, given our humble origins, we had a lot of financial incentives, you know, people would come to us and offer us, you know, checks to come deploy on their chains.
所以我们一直都在拒绝这些提议。
And so we would continuously just decline those offers.
我见过太多聪明的开发者和项目，总觉得必须抓住每一个机会。
And I think I've seen many, many, you know, smart builders and projects just feel like they have to chase every offer, right?
只要有钱摆在眼前，就得赶紧上。
Every time there's cash in hand, you got to go for it.
但这会分散你的精力，还会让目标偏离，各种问题都来了。
And that divides your attention, and it misaligns incentives and all that sort of stuff.
所以我们一直专注在 Optimism 上，而 Velodrome 也开始在 Optimism 超链上逐步扩展。
So we stayed focused on optimism and Velodrome started to expand across the Optimism super chain, right?
因为那时候像 Ink、Kraken、Sodium 这样的项目一个个都冒出来了。
Because there were all these other ones like ink and Kraken and sodium and things like that emerging.
但对于Base，我们当时押注的是——这可是家财富500强企业。
But for Base, we were betting on well, this is, you know, a Fortune 500.
这是全球最成功的消费级加密公司之一。
You know, this is one of the most successful consumer crypto companies in the world.
他们迟早会把以太坊二层部署上去。
And they're gonna come deploy an eth l too.
所以我们觉得，这背后有很大的机会，几乎可以肯定，它会成为全球最成功的区块链之一。
And so we think there is an opportunity, you know, there is a strong likelihood that this will be one of the most successful chains in the world.
但必须记住，当时这并不是主流看法，我们其实是逆着潮流走的——在所有人都追捧其他一层链的时候，我们却押注以太坊二层。
Now, it's important to remember that that was not a popular opinion at that time, just like we kind of went against the grain and betting on eth l twos in a moment when everyone was betting on alternate layer ones.
当Coinbase刚宣布Base的时候，加密推特上几乎都在说：这链根本发展不起来。
When Coinbase announced Base initially, most of Crypto Twitter was saying, oh, this chain will never grow, right?
这不过是个中心化链罢了。
This is going to be a fed chain.
他们连代币都没有，哪来的激励机制，根本玩不起来。
They're not going to have a token, so there's not going to be incentives and things like that.
但我们当时押注的是Coinbase有能力把这条链垂直整合起来，成为为链上开发者提供流量的渠道。
But our bet was on, you know, the ability of Coinbase to vertically integrate their chain, be a distribution channel for that chain for the builders on that.
当然，后来证明我们是对的，因为在这个行业里，很少见到一个新链在一年内就把所有老L1和以太坊L2都甩在身后。
And of course, I think we were very much validated there because it, you know, we don't see it happen very often in this space where within a year, every single chain, you know, whether it was an old L1 or Eth L2 has been lapped by a new entry.
而Base正是发生了这种情况。
And that is what ended up happening on Base.
Base在某些日子里的交易量甚至超过了Solana和以太坊主网。
And you know, Base on some days is doing more volume than Solana, doing more volume than Ethereum mainnet.
而Base上绝大多数交易量，其实都来自Aerodrome。
And of course, the vast majority of that volume that is happening on Base is happening on Aerodrome.
当时除了一个理论支撑，几乎看不到任何实际依据，但这个押注最终带来了丰厚回报。
So that bet once again, when there was kind of like nothing other than like a thesis to support it, paid substantial dividends.
我觉得，那些老牌交易所花了很长时间才慢慢开始接纳Base。
And I think it took a long time before like some of the incumbent legacy exchanges, I think, leaned in to Base.
但等他们真动手的时候，已经晚了。
But by the time that they did, it was kind of too late, right?
我们在那里，还有整个Optimism超级链上，都已经建立了强大的护城河。
We we had established a powerful moat there and really across the Optimism super chain as well.
你这么一说，我倒是想到，Base确实是Coinbase自家推出的。
You know, all that got me thinking, you know, Base is is obviously, as you said, comes from Coinbase themselves.
对吧？
Right?
这是一个规模很大、非常受欢迎的交易平台，尤其受散户交易者和投资者青睐。
A really big popular exchange, especially for retail traders and investors.
就在我们录制这段内容的时候，又出现了一个类似的平台。
Recently, there's been another one of those that has popped up at the time of recording this.
Robinhood链刚刚上线了。
Robinhood Chain just launched.
我想知道，你觉得这是个威胁，还是说，这反而给了你一个机会，可以接入别的新平台？
And I'm curious, you view that more as like a threat, or is that more an opportunity for you to get plugged in somewhere else additionally?
是的。
Yeah.
我觉得可以从两个角度来看这个问题。
I mean, I would I would frame it in in two ways.
一方面，这对链上经济来说是件好事，越来越多传统企业正在进入链上，这确实是个趋势。
One is, it is fantastic for the on chain economy, that more traditional businesses, right, are coming on chain in a variety of right?
对Coinbase来说，推出自己的链无疑是个巨大的成功。
So certainly, it was a very big win for Coinbase to come deploy a chain.
Robinhood这么做，同样是个巨大的突破。
It's a huge win for Robinhood to do that.
因为我觉得Robinhood很可能会走和Coinbase类似的路子。
And because you know, Robinhood, I think is going to be pursuing a very similar strategy as Coinbase.
这等于为链上的产品和开发者打开了一条直达数百万Robinhood付费用户的渠道，这些用户其实很愿意接触链上的一些新东西，只是之前没机会接触。
That is now a distribution channel for for on chain products and builders to, you know, millions of of paying Robinhood customers who would love to have, you know, access to some of the things that are happening on chain and might not otherwise.
所以我觉得这对链上经济是件好事。
So I think it's great for the on chain economy.
同时，我觉得这对以太坊也是件好事。
I also think it is great for Ethereum, right?
我依然对以太坊这个项目非常看好。
And I am still a very much bullish on the project of Ethereum.
坦白说，当时竞争激烈得不得了。
And there was frankly, an incredible bidding war, right?
像Robinhood和Coinbase，其实都有三个选择。
Like both Robinhood and Coinbase would have had three options.
一个是自己搞一条专属链，
One is they could have built their own proprietary chain, right?
那样就跟整个以太坊或者EVM生态脱钩了。
That would have been divorced from broader Ethereum or broader EVM.
他们这么做当然也有道理。
And there could be good reasons for them to do that.
但那样就成了孤岛，完全自成一体。
But they could be all tell ones, they could be their own thing.
或者他们也可以选择在Solana上构建。
Or they could have built on like Solana.
我知道Solana为了争取Robinhood的业务竞争得非常激烈。
And I know Solana competed fiercely to win Robinhood's business.
但最终，这两家公司都选择了在以太坊上构建，也选择了支持EVM。
But in the end, both of these companies, you know, chose to build on top of Ethereum, chose to build Ethel too.
所以我觉得，像Coinbase一样，Robinhood的加入对以太坊生态是极大的利好，因为它让企业能搭建自己的L2，保留一部分创造的价值，同时仍反哺以太坊核心网络。
So I also think Robinhood, like Coinbase, is a great bullish thing for, the broader project of Ethereum because it does allow businesses to sort of build their own l twos, capture a portion of the value they produce while still giving back to the core Ethereum project.
随着越来越多的企业和机构接入链上，这种无限扩展的能力我认为至关重要。
And that sort of infinite scalability as more and more businesses, more and more institutions come on chain, I think is really critical.
这和任何单一的、再快再高效的独立公链都完全不同，因为你没法为特定需求做深度优化。
And it's very different than what a, you know, monolithic Alt L1, no matter how fast and performant it is can provide, because you can't kind of optimize it around a particular.
接下来我们要推进的重大阶段，相信待会儿也会聊到，就是把Aerodrome和Velodrome合并成一个统一的交易平台，叫Aero。
So, you know, Aero, you know, our next big phase, which I'm sure we'll get into here eventually is that we are launching, you know, the combined Aerodrome and Velodrome into a single exchange in Aero.
我们还会把这个平台扩展到以太坊主网和Circle的Arc网络。
And we are extending that exchange to main net Ethereum and to Circle's Arc.
我们的目标很明确，就是要成为整个EVM生态里最主流的链上交易平台。
And I think our intention very much is to be the dominant on chain exchange of the broader EVM.
所以我觉得我们会非常关注任何链上出现的活动机会，对吧？
And so I think we will be very interested you know, capturing any pockets of activity on chain that we see, right?
而且我们目前的首发计划已经基本敲定了。
And I think we have kind of our initial launch set locked in here.
不过话说回来，EVM生态里的任何增长和交易活跃度，对我们所有人来说都是好事。
But yeah, any growth across EVM and trading is a fantastic thing for for all of us, I think.
这太棒了。
I love it.
而且这也正好帮我们引出下一个问题：这些ETH Layer 2在以太坊社区里其实挺有争议的，至少从外部看是这样——毕竟过去五年，以太坊的价格基本没动，甚至还有点跌。
And that's super informative kind of towards this next question as well about like, I guess these ETH l twos have kind of been contentious, if you will, in the Ethereum community just because again, this is just my outsiders looking in, like, Ethereum value is flat to negative over the course of the past, like, five years.
当然，它也涨过。
Sure, it's gone up.
当然，它也跌过。
Sure, it's gone down.
很多人把责任推到Layer 2头上，说它们把价值都吸走了。
And a lot of people are scapegoating ETH l twos and saying, well, that's where all the like, they're siphoning off value.
他们把手续费都抽走了。
They're siphoning off fees.
现在销毁机制根本没起作用，因为根本没人在以太坊上做交易。
Now the burn isn't happening because people aren't even really transacting on Ethereum.
我看到一些讨论。
And so I saw some discussion.
我觉得这还只是个提议，但据说是以太坊基金会，或者现在是ETH Labs在推动。
I think it's just a proposal at this point, but, where the Ethereum Foundation or maybe now it's ETH Labs.
我对那边到底在搞什么有点糊涂。
I'm kinda confused with what's going on there.
他们说要重新谈判L2要给主链付多少钱。
But they are saying that they're gonna renegotiate how much the l twos are gonna pay the main chain.
你能给我们解释清楚一点吗？
How do you debug this for us here?
是的，这里头有好几件事在同时发生。
Yeah, I think there's a few things going on here.
我觉得应该从一个根本原则出发：如果传统企业能直接在以太坊上构建应用，而不是另起炉灶搞自己的竞争链，或者跑去Solana这类平台，整个以太坊网络会不会变得更强？
And like, I would approach it from the principle first of will a overarching network of Ethereum do much better if there is the ability for traditional businesses to come on chain, still build on top of Ethereum versus building their own competitive chains or in going to something like Solana?
没错，这绝对是以太坊的一大优势。
Yes, that is absolutely a win for for Ethereum.
而这一点，正是L2路线图和L2模式独有的能力。
And it is something that the L2 roadmap, and sort of the L2 model allows them to do uniquely.
你可以想象一下，就像布莱恩·阿姆斯特朗说的，Coinbase的赌注是，未来五年内，全球百分之十的GDP会上链。
And if you imagine a future like, you know, Brian Armstrong has said, Coinbase's bet is that in the next five years, 10% of global GDP comes on chain.
到时候，我们面对的将是海量的新用户和应用场景。
You know, we're talking about many more bases.
会有更多像Robinhood这样的平台，但规模远超今天，带来远为庞大的价值回流。
We're talking about many more Robinhood like chains and them operating at a scale, right, that is so much larger than they are today, such that there is a lot more value flowing back.
这些价值留在以太坊生态里，总比流到其他链上去要好得多。
And that is much better than that value flowing elsewhere to other chains.
所以我觉得L2路线图的问题在于——维塔利克说过，我们根本不需要一百个由风投支持、互相抄袭的通用链，重复做着和以太坊主网一模一样的事情。
So I think the issue with the l two roadmap was that, like, you know, I think Vitalik said this, we did not need 100, like VC backed copy paste, generalized chains that just recreate the exact types of things that are happening on main net Ethereum.
这些链必须有存在的理由。
These chains need to have a reason to exist.
Base 和 Robinhood 就是很好的例子，它们能作为基础平台，让这些公司在此构建和分发服务。
I think Base and Robinhood are great examples of chains that have a reason to exist in the sense of, you know, they can serve as the bed at which these things are built and these companies can distribute.
我觉得 L2 路线图的大部分方向没问题，确实有不少垃圾链，就像 L1 里也有很多垃圾链一样，但那些迟早会被淘汰，我们还是应该继续扩大 L1 的规模。
So I think most of the L2 roadmap, that's fine, like there's a bunch of junk chains, just like there are a bunch of junk L1s, but like, that can go away, we should continue to scale the L1.
至于价值回流到 L1 或 ETH 的比例，到底多少才合适，我也不确定，这取决于能捕获多少价值。
And then like, you know, I do not know the correct balance in value back, you know, to the l one or value back to ETH versus, you know, value to be able to cap be captured.
但核心原则是对的：企业应该能在以太坊之上构建应用，回馈与他们所获相称的价值，让网络实现无限扩展，而不是走向更封闭或竞争性的区块链架构。
But the principle is right, that there should be a way for businesses to build on top of Ethereum, contribute something back that is hopefully proportional to what they gain and allow the network to scale infinitely, you know, versus, you know, a more monolithic or a competitive blockchain sort of infrastructure.
还有一个小问题：人们其实没法直接在主链上开发，因为太慢了，如果所有人都往主链上堆，手续费会高得吓人。
And just one quick follow-up because on that, like, people can't really build on the main chain because it's too slow and, like, it will not support and the fees will get high if, like, everybody's building on it.
这算是基本前提吧？
Is that kinda, like, the the basic principle?
是的。
Yeah.
我的意思是，如果你在 DeFi 夏天那会儿用过 ETH 主网，你应该记得，
Well, I mean, if if anybody, you know, was using, ETH Mainnet, you know, back during DeFi summer, you know, you could
你
be
可能正在做一个兑换交易，结果你没留神，嘿，你一千美元里就有两美元五毛变成了手续费，对吧？
making a swap and suddenly, you know, you're just not paying attention and yeah, dollars $2.50 of your $1,000 went to a fee, right?
这种模式没法支撑全球用户接入，对吧？或者说，连开发一些有趣的新应用和新基础组件都做不到。
And that is not scalable to onboard the world, right, or onboard, or even create new interesting applications and primitives.
所以现在情况很清楚，对吧？
And so like now it's like very much clear, right?
这将是一个双管齐下的策略。以太坊主网在过去一年里已经变得更快、更便宜、性能更强，这是好事。
It's gonna be a dual pronged strategy that the Ethel one already, like in the last year is becoming faster, cheaper, more performant, And that is good.
而且未来还会有更多的
And there will be even more of
这样的
that
加速。
acceleration.
这意味着更多的活动可以留在以太坊一层上完成和结算。
And that means more activity can live, right, and settle on the ETHL one.
更多的经济活动和价值也会被代币捕获。
And more of that economic activity and value will be captured, you know, by the token.
但与此同时，你也要确保能吸引罗宾汉、Coinbase，把贝莱德这些巨头都拉进来，通过二层网络一起加入，总比让这些价值从你的生态里悄悄流走要强。
But you do that in parallel with ensuring that, yeah, you win Robinhood, you win Coinbase, know, you bring BlackRock, you you know, bring everybody on board via the l twos as well because you'd much rather be capturing something from that versus that siphoning value out of your ecosystem somewhere else.
对吧？
Right?
以太坊从索拉纳上发生的一切都得不到任何好处，另一种可能的未来是，每家公司都自建一套系统。
You know, Ethereum gains nothing by anything that happens on Solana, and that could be an alternate universe where every single corporation is building their own thing.
那对以太坊根本毫无贡献。
It's contributing absolutely nothing back.
我想回过头聊聊你之前提到的布莱恩·阿姆斯特朗那句话，我见过很多人在传。
I wanna go back to that Brian Armstrong quote that you mentioned a little bit earlier because I've seen that float around.
我见过你提到过，就是说目标是把全球百分之十的GDP上链。
I've seen you mention it, but it's this idea that the goal is to bring 10% of global GDP on chain.
而且我之前也见过你提过这个说法，但你能跟我详细说说，要实现这个目标，得满足哪些条件吗？
And, again, I've seen you reference that before, but can you walk me through what has to be true for that to actually happen?
是的。
Yeah.
我觉得很多基础条件其实已经具备了。
I mean, I think a lot of the foundations are already there.
对吧？
Right?
我们已经花了好多年时间了。
You know, we've spent years and years.
有时候人们觉得这是件坏事，好像在批评什么似的，对吧？
Sometimes this is seen as like, I don't know, it's like, presented as a bad thing, right?
但实际上，方向还是对的。
But it's actually, it's still directionally correct.
我们花了这么多年，一直在搭建基础设施，为全球金融体系打造一个比传统体系更扎实的基础，对吧？
We have been spending years and years building the infrastructure needed to provide a better foundation for the global financial system than the one that exists in the traditional world, right?
这意味着区块链必须变得更快、性能更强。
So that means, you know, chains had to get faster and more performant.
我们需要开发更安全、更不可篡改的软件，经过严密测试，还吸引了数十亿美元的资金保障。
That meant we needed to build software that was much more secure and immutable and tested with powerful Lindy effects and billions of dollars of capital secured.
我们还得去试验各种经济模型和代币机制，看看哪些有效、哪些行不通。
It means we needed to like even experiment around these economic models and token models and figure out what works and what doesn't work.
现在，大部分基础设施已经相当成熟，完全可以支持更大规模的接入了，对吧？
So now most of the infrastructure is in a really good place to onboard much more, right?
更大的规模，首先指的是资金。
And much more means capital, certainly.
但同时也包括用户、交易量、活跃度这些方面。
But it also means users, transactions, activity and things like that.
很多基础工作已经完成了，未来还会继续推进，但我们现在确实站在了一个很坚实的基础上。
So much of that work has been done, it will continue to happen, but we're in a strong place.
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所以这是其中一件必须完成的事。
So that's one thing that needs to be done.
但另一个关键推动力是，想想看，链上到底真正做了些什么呢？
But the other, some of the other like powerful catalysts here is like, well, look, what has there been to do on chain, right?
目前只有少数几种资产具备实际用途或清晰的价值主张。
There's a handful of assets that are interested assets that have some form of utility or some sort of clear value proposition.
至于其他所有在链上发生的事，自从DeFi出现以来，说白了都是空气币。
The rest of what's been going on on chain, you know, basically, as long as there's been DeFi is frankly, shitcoins.
全是垃圾，只是被用作套现工具的代币。
It's garbage, it's tokens used as extraction vehicles.
你几乎找不到几个代币，能从基本面角度评估，还让传统机构投资者感兴趣。
You know, it's very, very rare, you can point to a token that could be assessed on a fundamentals basis and would appeal to an allocator in a traditional system, right?
或许确实需要一小撮迷因币，但根本不需要太多。
And there is a case probably for a small network of things like meme coins, but you know, you don't need that many.
我们都知道，大多数迷因币很快就会归零，只让少数人暴富，却让很多人血本无归。
And we know most meme coins go to zero very quickly, and they make a handful of people very rich, and they make a lot of people very poor.
随着《Clarity法案》即将落地，我们不仅会看到，而且已经看到美国股票直接上链，不再是之前那种包装版或合成版的实验性操作。
And so with the Clarity Act, right, which we're on the verge of, we are going to see and we are already seeing, like the issuing of US equities on chain, and not kind of the like wrapper versions or synthetic versions, sort of experimentation we've seen so far.
比如Coinbase宣布的这个，是真正可交易的股权代币，用户能拿到分红，还能行使投票权。
But like what Coinbase announced, right, this is a tokenized equity in which things like dividends are available to you as a user of it, things like voting rights.
这将形成一个全新的资产类别，规模上来后，交易速度更快、成本更低，还能释放可组合DeFi和围绕它构建的新金融原语的潜力。
And so that is a whole new asset class that could come on chain in size could be traded faster and cheaper than via traditional venues could unlock the power of composable DeFi and new financial primitives built around it.
再说到全球外汇市场，对吧？
And then we're talking about things like Global FX, right?
现在在Base和Aerodrome上，美元兑欧元的汇率，已经比Wise这类新兴金融科技公司每天给的最优汇率还要好。
Right now, today, like on Base and on Aerodrome, you can get a rate that is better exchanging US dollars to euros, then the best of the upstart financial tech companies like Wise offer you each day, right?
天啊，真没想到。
Oh, wow.
用不了多久，更多支付处理和外汇基础设施也会逐步迁移到链上。
And so it's only a matter of time where more and more of this sort of payments processing or FX infrastructure comes on chain as well.
我觉得，很多这些变化其实已经在发生了。
And so I think about it in terms of a lot of this stuff is already coming true.
监管的明确性只会加速推进。
Regulatory clarity is gonna only accelerate.
即将发行的资产种类会多到爆，简直是一场淘金热。
The mix of asset classes that are gonna be issued, I mean, it's gonna be a gold rush.
现在 Coinbase 和 Robinhood 已经准备好了要发股票，接下来各大金融机构都会争相发行自己的稳定币，更全球化的稳定币，我甚至觉得政府都会在链上发行自己的稳定币。
You already have Coinbase and Robinhood, you know, ready to issue stocks, you're gonna see every major institution wanting to issue their own, like types of stablecoins, more global stablecoins, because I think you'll even see like government issued stablecoins on chain.
这就是通往未来的路径。
And then that is how you get there.
因为一旦这些东西上链，就是实时的、成本极低、全球可访问、无需许可的。
Because when these things are on chain, it's real time, it's super cheap, it's globally accessible, it's permissionless.
归根结底，这比传统金融系统的技术要先进得多。
And that is in the end just better technology than what you can get in traditional financial systems.
所以，这就是我们如何一点点蚕食掉全球 GDP 中那 10% 的传统金融份额。
And so that is how I think we eat away at, you know, that number of 10% of global GDP.
如果你还需要更多证据，那看看所有主要金融机构吧——包括那些最怀疑、甚至曾经最想阻挠这个项目的，现在都在最高层招聘人才，专门负责数字资产和通证化战略。
And, know, if you need any more, like case for this, every single major financial institution, including some of those like most skeptical, or those who have been, you know, maybe most trying to throw a wrench in this collective project, they're hiring people at the most senior levels to lead the digital assets and tokenization strategies, right?
我认为，这场较量在很多方面已经赢了。
The battle, I think, in many ways has been won.
现在剩下的只是时间问题。
And so now it is just a matter of time.
如果你只看加密货币推特，可能根本感受不到这一点，因为那里大多是老玩家，早就看淡了；但你要是去参加这些大会，跟银行、资产发行方和大机构聊聊，就完全听不到什么恐惧、不确定或怀疑。
And I know you don't get this vibe if you're just reading crypto Twitter, because those are the jaded, you know, people who have been here for a very long time, but you get none of that fear, uncertainty or doubt if you're out at these conferences and you're talking to banks and asset issuers and major institutions.
他们都知道这事迟早会来。
They know this stuff is coming.
他们明白必须围绕它做准备，不然自己的业务就会被颠覆。
They know they need to build around it, otherwise their businesses will be disrupted.
这势头简直太看好了。
And it's like so insanely bullish.
我从来没这么看涨过。
I've like never been more bullish.
别把加密推特上的喧嚣当真信号啊。
Don't mistake the crypto Twitter noise for for signal, you know.
就像我们当初有自己的判断，完全没理睬加密推特上的那些人。
Just like we had a thesis, we ignored everybody on crypto Twitter.
结果呢，果然得到了回报。
And, you know, that's yield the dividends.
我给每个人的建议都是：别听加密推特上任何人说的。
Advice I give everybody, don't listen to anybody on crypto Twitter.
那东西完全是滞后信号。
It's a lagging signal.
我的建议是，把它当成最佳参考。
Like, you know, make it a best.
说实话，我本人还是花很多时间刷那里，但我至少把它当成一个记录——它告诉我已经发生的事，或者正在被回溯的事，而不是接下来要发生什么。
I don't know, look, I still spend a lot of time on there, but I at least put it in a box of like, this is telling me what has just happened or is retroactively happening, not what is about to happen next.
是的。
Yeah.
你做得很好，能很好地把这件事区分开来，不被它影响。
You've done done a good dot time or done a good job of, like, dissociating and compartmentalizing, that.
没错。
Exactly.
但不是这样的。
But no.
我的天，那真的太棒了。
I mean, there man, that that was awesome.
这里面有太多东西值得细说。
There's so much to unpack there.
而且顺便说一句，关于这些银行和资产配置机构纷纷入场的事，我两天前看到，先锋集团刚发布了他们第一篇关于布局数字资产的帖子。
And I think, like, also, by the way, on on the concept of, like, all these banks and asset allocators and stuff coming in, I saw I think it was two days ago, Vanguard just posted one of their first posts for, like, we're looking for ahead of digital assets.
是的。
Yeah.
而加密推特上的人当然都炸了，毕竟两年前，你们的CEO还说这些ETF永远不可能上市交易。
And everybody on crypto Twitter, of course, goes crazy because, like, you know, two years ago, your CEO said you're never gonna have these ETFs even tradable.
结果那位CEO几个月后就离职了，被人替换了。
Then that CEO left a couple, you know, months after that, got replaced.
他们推出了加密货币ETF，现在又在招一个加密业务负责人，这明显就是低头认输了。
They rolled out the ETF access, and now they're looking for, like, a head of crypto, which is just like, man, you know, they're they're they're really starting to to bend the knee, if you will.
对。
Yeah.
如果你关注科技很久了，像你这样研究技术的人，应该明白一点：只要技术更高效、更全球普及，它最终就会胜出，但这个过程往往在发生之前没人觉得会这样，对吧？
And if you've if you've been around long enough, if, like, you if you study technology and, like, you should, I think at some point, just think about this as better tech, better tech, if it is more efficient, if it's more globally accessible, it wins, but it does not feel like it until it does, right?
比如iPhone刚推出的时候，大家都知道那件事吧？
Like, there's a very funny common thing of like, you know, with the iPhone first dropped, right?
iPhone完全超越了当时所有的智能手机，是个巨大的飞跃。
And the iPhone was totally, it was a major leap beyond like what smartphones were up until that point.
那时候史蒂夫·鲍尔默笑得前仰后合，说根本没人会用这玩意儿，还有黑莓那帮人——如果你还没看过《黑莓》这部电影，真该去看看，他们当时还纳闷：没键盘，谁会要这东西？
And you have, you know, Steve Ballmer just like laughing his ass off being like, nobody's gonna use this thing yada yada yada, and you know, BlackBerry guys is that great movie, the BlackBerry movie, if you haven't watched that one, you know, just going like, well, why would anybody want this if there's no keyboard on it?
这种事，回头看才觉得显而易见。
This stuff is only obvious in retrospect.
我清楚地看到未来会发生什么，但这并不妨碍很多人坚持说这事根本不可能。
And I like, I think it is very, very obvious what is going to happen that does not mean you won't have a whole bunch of people who say it's not gonna happen.
但你说得对，他们确实走了。
But to your point, they leave.
如果这些企业不想倒闭，就会变得非常重视，确保自己不被颠覆。
And then unless those businesses wanna go under, those businesses get really, really serious about ensuring that they're not disrupted here.
完全没错。
Totally.
不过为了公平起见，或者换个角度说，我觉得这些机构还是面临一些结构性的进入壁垒。
But to our to play devil's advocate or to the counterpoint, just to touch, I still think there are some structural barriers to entry for some of these institutions.
我觉得没人能否认，那些层出不穷的安全事件确实让很多人望而却步。
I don't think any of us could deny all the hacks that have happened, which I think scare people out.
还有就是，不同流动性池里缺乏必要的客户身份验证。
Maybe some of the lack of KYC on the different liquidity pools.
当然，还有托管问题、合规问题，希望这些都能通过技术手段解决。如果《清晰法案》能通过，那就太好了——现在Polymarket上的预测概率还是五五开。
You've got, you know, of course, custody issues, different compliance issues that hopefully those things are more technical, the clarity act, if it passes, finger crossed, fifty fifty coin flip right now according to Polymarket odds.
这些事迟早会慢慢理顺，但问题在于，那些安全漏洞总是接二连三地出现。
You know, that stuff will get smoothed out, but, like, I feel like it's the the constant hacks.
你觉得呢？
What do you think?
到底是什么在阻碍新玩家进入呢？
Like, what what is it that's kind of the barrier to entry?
还有，Dromos Labs 在这方面该承担什么角色？是该去协助解决这些问题，还是该由以太坊开发者、Coinbase 这样的中心化机构来负责？
And, you know, also, like, what role does Dromos Labs have to, like, smooth some of that over or or or responsibility relative to, like, Ethereum developers or Coinbase or, like, these centralized institutions?
对。
Yeah.
这是个很好的问题。
It's a great question.
我觉得，最大的障碍其实来自监管的明确性，这一点很关键。
I mean, I think much of the barriers, or at least the biggest inflection point will come with clarity, right?
不只是美国，这里会扮演重要角色。
And will come, you know, not even just United States will be a major player here, right?
毕竟，我们很大程度上决定了全球的规则和标准。
Because we very much do set many of the global rules and standards.
但现在多个国家正在推进相关法案，比如韩国，那可是全球人均数字资产持有率最高的国家之一。
But there are clarity like bills moving through, like a number of different countries like, you know, South Korea is a major one, one of the highest rates of like digital asset ownership in the world, like per capita.
这使得这些企业，正如你所说，变得极其保守。
And what that does is, you know, these businesses are hyper conservative to your point.
他们可不想冒太大风险，对吧？
They're not gonna take a ton of risk, right?
他们需要明确的规则。
They want to know the rules.
我认为这正是最关键的突破口。
And I think that is one of the biggest unlocks.
并不是说清晰的法规就一定不会通过，或者不会出现。
It doesn't mean a clarity doesn't pass, it doesn't happen.
只是说可能需要一些折中，或者以不同的方式推进，但无论如何，这都会成为巨大的推动力。
It just means that there's a slight discounting or needs to happen in slightly different ways or things like that, but it will be a major catalyst.
至于黑客攻击，确实如此，这严重拖累了我们整个领域的发展。
To the hacks though, absolutely, man, that is that is a major tax on the growth of our space.
我不觉得这是最大的障碍，因为一家机构如果对区块链做尽职调查，完全能分辨出那些已经安全运行四年、锁定过数十亿美元资产的智能合约。
I don't think it will be the biggest limiter, because an institution doing due diligence on chain can figure out the difference between, you know, immutable smart contracts that have held billions of capital for four years, right?
数十亿美元的资产意味着，对朝鲜或其他攻击者来说，破解它就是一笔巨大的赏金，可这么多年都没被攻破，这本身就说明了它的可靠性。
You know, billions of capital means the bounty for North Korea for any threat actor has been billions, if they find something, they break that, that is a pretty good bounty to have existed for years and not been broken.
所以我认为他们有能力做出区分。
So I think they'll be able to differentiate.
但如果问题出在认知层面，而这些机构内部又有很多人不愿意深入做尽职调查，那确实是个大问题。
But if it's more on perception, and like, you know, you need a lot of buy in within these orgs, you know, from people who will not go in and do that due diligence.
这确实是个大问题。
It's a major issue.
但我想说说我的看法。
But here's, here's my take on it.
我觉得过去一年那些惨烈的黑客事件，跟什么‘神话外泄’、‘我们还不知道的未知风险’，或者那些先进模型泛滥之类的根本没关系。
I don't think anything about like the last year brutal hacks, right, has anything in particular to do with like, is mythos out there on the loose, you know, and we just don't know it yet or the proliferation of these sophisticated models or things like that.
我之所以这么认为，是因为这些因素至少不是直接或主要的原因——它们最多只是降低了渗透攻击和社交工程的门槛。
And the reason I don't think it has anything to do with that, at least it's not a direct or substantial contributor, it does drop the cost of like probing and social engineering and things like that.
但几乎每一次黑客攻击，你都能直接找到单一或双重故障点，导致上亿美金的资金面临风险。
But almost every one of these hacks, you can basically point to, it was a single or double point of failure, whereby there was 10s or hundreds of millions of dollars at risk.
你好好想想这一点。
So think about that.
假设你和我，我们用的是一个2-of-5的多重签名机制，对吧？
If let's just say you two, right, we're on on a multi sig, and it was a two of five, right?
你们俩在保护一亿美元的资金。
And you guys were securing, you know, dollars 100,000,000 of capital.
这意味着，针对你们俩的赏金高得惊人——攻击者只要能黑进你们的电脑，或者潜入你们家里找到你们，就能拿到这笔钱。既然能赚一亿，花一千万去搞定你们，这笔买卖太划算了，他们肯定动手。
That means somebody the bounty on you guys, that would just means they need to either crack your computer, or get into your home and find you guys, the bounty on you is so large, that like, if somebody spends $10,000,000 to break each of you, because they'll make 100,000,000, they'll get you, right?
这根本不是什么难事。
Like, it's it's not hard.
所以，在我们这个领域，这类问题早就该被解决了。
And so the issue in our space is these things should have been gone a long time ago.
在我看来，继续在控制巨额资金的系统里保留这种中心化依赖，简直是严重的失职。
It is it is absolutely negligent, in my opinion, to continue to have centralized dependencies like these inherent in systems that control substantial amount of value.
当然，每个人都要自己负责做好风险评估，对吧？
I think it is up of course to everybody individually to do that own that discounting yourself, right?
我绝对不会把钱存进任何使用多重签名、时间锁之类机制的项目，万一把我的资金卷跑了怎么办。
I wouldn't deposit in anything with a multi sig even with a time lock or anything like that on it that could rug my capital.
我已经很久没这么干了，自从DeFi夏天那会儿我到处乱投的时候就没再碰过。
I haven't done that in a very long time, not since I was just bumming around depositing into random stuff in DeFi summer.
但协议方也得负起责任来。
But it's also up to those protocols.
如果你的系统还依赖这种中心化环节，那你的安全预算就得跟一家守护巨额资金的银行一样大才行，对吧？
Like, if you are going to have that level of centralized dependency, I'm sorry, your operational security budget has to be as big as a centralized, like bank that is securing an unbelievable amount of capital, right?
我们从一开始就没搞这些玩意儿，对吧？
And we've designed from the beginning without those things, right?
我们没有多重签名，也没有任何中心化依赖。
We do not have multi sigs or centralized dependencies.
我们可能是最彻底想要把这些风险从系统里清除掉的项目之一。
Are probably one of the most extreme in trying to drive those out of our system.
我们从头构建了全新的技术，连一个中心化的 API 或索引器都没有。
We've built entirely new technologies such that we don't even have like a centralized API or indexer.
我们没有使用过 Google Cloud 或 AWS 的任何服务。
We don't have a Google Cloud instance or AWS instance.
我们完全没用传统 Web2 的基础设施。
We're not using traditional Web two point infrastructure.
但我觉得这正是我们的责任——你就算找上我和其他五个联合创始人，也拿不走 Aerodrome 里那五亿美元的锁仓资金。
But I think that is incumbent on us because you could you could grab me and five other co founders, you're not getting the $500,000,000 locked in Aerodrome.
你什么都得不到。
Don't have you All you're gonna
最多就一个很酷的帽子和一个钱包。
get is a cool hat and a wallet.
对。
Yeah.
我们确实有几件不错的连帽衫，你要是愿意，也可以跟我一起去取款机，不过你可能会有点失望，因为我们没融过资，也没给自己分配代币。
We've got some great hoodies and yeah, you can go to my ATM with me if you want, but you're gonna be a bit disappointed because we didn't raise money and we didn't allocate ourselves token.
所以你知道，做公共产品的时候，收益跟普通项目可不一样。
So, you know, when building a public good, you don't quite have the same same upside.
不过确实，我们得把系统做得更好。
But yeah, we need to build better systems.
某种程度上，现在清理掉这些不靠谱的东西反而是好事。
And some ways, it might be good that we're washing out the stuff here.
大家现在吃点苦头长记性，总比等正规机构上链之后才明白来得好。
And people are learning painful lessons now, versus like clarity institutions come on chain.
如果这个周期继续下去，那我们可能快熬到熊市尾声了。
And let's say the cycle structure continues, that means we might be at the tail end of the bear here.
我们都清楚，市场转折时是什么感觉。
And we all know what it feels like when things turn.
现在就把垃圾清理掉。
Let's take out the trash now.
把教训传下去，希望还在坚持的人以后再也不走捷径了。
Let's send lessons, you know, and then hopefully everyone who's still building here goes no more shortcuts.
每个投资它们的基金都强调：绝不走捷径。
Every fund investing in them says no shortcuts.
如果某个项目用多重签名控制资金之类的，你是拿不到投资的。
You're not getting a check if if like, there's a multisig that's controlling value and stuff like that.
对。
Yeah.
没错。
Yeah.
说实话，我觉得你说的这些都非常到位，确实值得重视。
Well, you know, I wanna I I well, first and foremost, I think all of that's a really good point, and I think it's important to pay attention to that.
我希望更多项目和创始人能有这样的意识，因为很容易就觉得：咱们随便搞搞就行。
And I wish more projects and founders had that kind of approach to this because it's very easy to think, oh, we'll just cut corners.
我们这么做就行。
We'll do this.
我们那样做也没问题。
We'll do that.
我们和我们的客户实际上不会有任何事。
Nothing will actually happen to us or our customers.
不知不觉中，疏忽就会找上门，而且已经发生得太多了。
Before you know it, the carelessness catches up to you, and it's happened too much.
所以我觉得，我们在这方面确实想法一致。
And so I think, you know, we're we're definitely on the same page there.
但在我们转话题之前，我想插一句。
But I wanna Can interject on one thing before we switch gears?
我真希望更多人能了解你刚才说的这些。
I I wish just more people knew about exactly what you're talking about.
对吧？
Right?
比如，中心化风险到底在哪里？
Like, oh, where are the centralization risks and so on?
有没有什么资源或者网站，能让我们去看看？如果有人在听，是个开发者，觉得‘哇，这真是个该做的工具’。
Is there a resource or a website where we can kinda go and see, like, this would be a great, you know, tool that somebody should build if you're listening, you're a developer, you're like, oh, wow.
想在加密领域做个真正有用的东西。
Wanna build something in Crypto that's useful.
这个真的很有用。
This would be useful.
每个带金库的协议，其中心化环节到底有哪些？
Like, what are the centralization components of every different protocol that has a vault?
或者，我们去哪儿找这些信息？
Or, like, where can we find that?
是的，这股趋势越来越明显，也成了大家热议的话题。
Yeah, you know, this is an increasing movement, and it became a topic of hot conversation, right?
因为缺乏统一标准和透明报告，这在我们行业里一直是个老问题。
Because there, you know, the lack of standards or transparent reporting is been an issue right in our industry, just period forever.
你可以从几个不同角度来看待这个问题。
And there are a few lenses you can take on it.
我们还有很多工作要做，特别是在代币透明度上——这些代币到底有什么用？
There's a lot of work we need to do around token transparency, right of what are these tokens good for?
那它们不是什么呢？
What are they not?
谁拥有它们？
Who owns them?
比如，它们什么时候解锁、什么时候会抛售，诸如此类的问题。
You know, when are they unlocking and gonna be sold and things like that.
Blockworks 在代币透明度方面做了大量工作，还建立了一套框架。
And like Blockworks has been doing a ton of work around token transparency, and they have this framework.
Argon 在代币所有权主张方面也做了很棒的工作，比如搞清楚这些代币到底有什么用。
So it's like, Argon has done some incredible work here around, you know, token ownership claims, like what is the token actually good for?
它赋予你哪些权利，类似这些方面。
What rights does it give you and things like that.
我一时想不起名字了，但回头我可以查一下发给你。
And then I'm having difficulty remembering the name, but I could definitely follow-up with it.
但 Bryce 的团队做过一些工作，针对每个协议分析其中心化风险，进行审计和评分。
But token Bryce had something that was looking at the centralization risks per protocol, auditing and scoring them.
我就是一时想不起来了。
And I just am having difficulty remembering.
然后大家也在讨论，会不会有人联手来解决这些问题呢？
And then there's some conversation of like, are people gonna come together and solve some of these things?
不过我最近没怎么跟进，好像是 DeFi Scan。
But I guess I haven't kept up but DeFi scan.
DeFi Scan？
DeFi scan?
对，就是 DeFi Scan。
Yep, DeFi scan.
他们在 Twitter 上能找到。
You can find them on Twitter.
这个项目试图分析安全假设和中心化风险点，有点像 L2 Beats 对二层网络做的那种分析，对吧？
And this is attempting to look at the security assumptions and centralised risk vectors, almost like L two beats does for L twos, right?
它会告诉你，比如锁仓时间、安全委员会的架构，还有去中心化的阶段。
It says like, you know, here's the time lock, security council infrastructure, what stage of decentralization.
他们正试图在整个去中心化金融领域推广这个项目，我觉得特别棒。
They're trying to do this across DeFi, and I think it's a great project.
对。
Mhmm.
叫‘Token Bryce’可能更贴切，不过‘DeFi scan’也不错。
Token Bryce was a better name, but DeFi scan's pretty good too.
是的。
Yeah.
没错。
Right.
另外，还有一个跟这个完全不同的领域，但我认为大家对它的安全问题看法差异很大，那就是债务问题。
Well, you know, one of the other areas that's completely different from this, but one that I think people have had very different kinds of security related thoughts about is debts.
对吧？
Right?
国库。
Treasuries.
牛市的时候，大家都特别喜欢它们。
In the bull market, everyone loved them.
简直太棒了，没得说。
Like, this is the best thing ever.
我们一直在增持，感觉特别好。
We're accumulating more, and it's great.
可现在进入了一个比较漫长的熊市，大家突然开始有点怀疑了。
And then now that we've entered into a little bit more of, like, a bearish extended period, all of a sudden, there's a little bit more skepticism.
心里也开始打鼓了。
There's a little bit more thoughts.
你想想，上个月迈克尔·塞拉两次抛售，再看看其他那些持有国库资产的公司是怎么做的，不少人可能就开始犹豫了。
You know, if people have seen Michael Saylor sell two different times here in the last month and seen how some of these other treasury companies have acted, and they're like, well, you know, maybe maybe I do have second thoughts on this.
但我挺好奇的。
But I'm curious.
关于以太坊、DATs 和国库资产，你具体怎么看？
For the ETH, DATs, and treasuries specifically, like, what are your thoughts on those?
像Sharpen、比特币，还有其他的那些。
Things like Sharpen, Bitcoin, the other ones.
是的。
Yeah.
我的看法是，我们之前看到的DAT相关项目，90%都是垃圾。根本问题在于代币和它所驱动的激励机制——如果这些代币根本没什么实际用途，那……
I mean, would guess I would say, look, 90% of what we saw around DATs was was garbage, like, and look, the root of the problem is, again, tokens and the incentives created there because if the tokens are not useful for anything, right?
如果它们没有链上实用功能，也不能带来任何价值增值，那这些dApp本质上就成了项目方和团队的退出工具，用来吸引投资者，说白了就是个套现通道。
If they do not have any on chain utility rights, if they do not accrue any value, all these dApps were exit vehicles like for foundations and teams, and to attract, you know, more investors, but it was like, it was another exit vehicle.
说到底，代币基本上就被当成了退出工具，对吧？
And tokens fundamentally have just been used for exit vehicles, right?
我们做了一个仪表盘，叫净代币资金流动，它显示的是流入代币的资金总量除以流出代币的资金总量。
We've created this dashboard, this net token value flows, but it shows basically amount of value into the token divided by amount of value out of the token.
这里面包括团队、投资者、激励机制等等所有因素。
That includes teams and investors and incentives and things like that.
但说实话，这其实一点都不意外：在前100名的代币里，90%都是纯粹的套现工具。
And hopefully, it comes as a surprise to no one, but like 90% of tokens in the top 100 are infinitely cost vehicles.
这意味着，只要你持有它，就有越来越多的价值从你身上被抽走。
That means if you are holding it, there's just more and more value being extracted from you.
你一直在为这些东西买单，但根本得不到任何回报。
You're subsidizing the cost of these things and you're not getting anything in return.
那为什么债务或股权类的投资方会愿意持有这些东西呢？
So why would debt or equity vehicle wanna hold any of these things, right?
它们简直是所有可投资资产里最差的选择。
Like they are the worst assets you could potentially buy in the universe of investable assets.
我们甚至可以先不谈加密货币。
We can even leave crypto aside.
就说那些更有趣的东西吧，比如炒作。
On more interesting assets, right, like hype.
炒作能带来惊人的价值。
Hype accrues an extraordinary amount of value.
炒作才是真正的实用代币。
Hype is a useful token.
这在DAAT的语境下是说得通的，对吧？
That makes sense in the context of a DAAT, right?
它为一个拥有股权结构、能够吸引更多投资、获取网络更大份额的实体提供了一个绝佳的工具，同时也为这个群体引入了新的利益相关者，他们自然有经济动力去推动这个网络的成功。
That gives an entity with an equity structure and the ability to like procure more investment, procure bigger piece of that network, a great vehicle, and it also creates a new stakeholder, right, in this group, who can then, you know, have a financial incentive to ensure the success of that network, right?
我认为HyperDad就是个很好的例子，Tom Lee和以太坊的情况也是一样。
And I think the the HyperDad is a great example of this, but likewise with Tom Lee and Ethereum, right?
Lee正在大量买入以太坊。
Like, Lee is buying an extraordinary amount of Ethereum.
以太坊又是另一个绝佳的资产，因为它确实能产生收益和价值，而且链上权利是不可篡改的。
Ethereum is again another great asset here because it does actually produce yield and value, and it does actually have on chain immutable rights.
现在Tom Lee有了明确的激励，就像你之前开玩笑说的，EF到底在搞什么名堂。
And now Tom Lee is incentivized, like we have this, you know, you made the joke earlier about what what exactly is going on with the EF.
但就连Vitalik也在说，我们需要调整EF的方向和重点。
But like, even in Vitalik talking about, you know, we need to change kind of the direction and the focus of the EF.
没错，说得太准了。
That's Yeah, a good exactly.
你知道为什么吗？
You know why?
因为不应该有一个单一的中心化实体来负责或受激励去推动整个网络的成功。
Because there shouldn't be one single centralized anything that is responsible for or incentivized for the success of the broader network.
所以，不管是基金会削减了机构关系方面的投入，
So, you know, whether it's, you know, hey, if the EF is cutting back, it's like institutional relations side.
还是削减了对DeFi开发者之类的支持，
Or if it's cutting back, it's like support for like DeFi builders and things like that.
它都能更专注于底层技术栈的核心使命。
So it can focus very much on the core mission of the underlying like technology stack.
这太好了。
That is great.
谁有财力和动力去做更出色的企业或机构 outreach 呢？汤姆·李就有，对吧？
And you know who has a financial incentive and means to support much better business oriented outreach, right, or much better institutional outreach, Tom Lee does, right?
这才是去中心化网络应该运作的方式。
And that's how like a decentralized network should actually operate.
这其实跟我们的运作方式很像，对吧？
And it's actually pretty similar to how we operate, right?
我们团队只有作为自己代币的使用者，才能获得回报。
Like we only get rewarded as a team, right, By virtue of being users of our own token.
所有收入都进入代币池，我们每周也得跟其他人一样使用代币。
100% of the revenue goes to the token, we have to use the token each week just like anybody else.
所以在开发即将上线的新版Aero时，我们并不是唯一贡献技术的团队。
So in building the new Aero, right, which will be launching soon, We are not the only contributing development company to this technology stack.
还有另一个团队在Wonderland。
There's another one in Wonderland.
Wonderland是一群顶尖的以太坊开发者，他们参与过像Optimism这样的核心项目。
And Wonderland is an amazing set of builders, some of the top Ethereum builders in the space that have contributed to things like the the core Ethereum set to up his optimism and things like that.
他们通过自己的VE Aero持仓获得激励来贡献力量。
And they are incentivized to contribute through their own VE Aero position.
所以在整个系统里，他们是跟我们地位平等的参与者。
So they are an equal stakeholder as us within the system.
Quince Ventures 持有大量 BE Arrow 锁仓份额。
Quince Ventures holds a large BE Arrow Lock position.
他们的激励机制和我们完全一样。
They are incentivized the same way we are.
对吧？
Right?
我觉得这类代币用在股权结构里挺合理的，但大多数情况并不合适。
And those types of tokens, I think, make a lot of sense in equity vehicles, most of them do not.
是的。
Yeah.
没错，这个观点非常好。
No, that's a great point.
我觉得我们要是不再多聊聊流动性飞轮，就有点说不过去了，咱们也该为这场关于 Aero 代币的讨论做个收尾了。
And I think it's kinda like worth, you know, we'd be remiss if we didn't ask a little bit more about sort of the liquidity flywheel and kinda wrap up the conversation on just, you know, the Aero token.
对吧？
Right?
当然了，我们所说的任何内容都不是财务建议，也不应被当作财务建议来理解。
And, of course, nothing that we ever say is financial advice or should be construed as such.
这些都只是教育性质的分享。
It's just all educational in nature.
我们不希望让任何观看的人觉得这是在推销。
So we don't want this to come off like a sales pitch to anybody who's watching.
我很好奇，你是怎么看待Aero代币的？
I'm just really curious, you know, how you think about the Aero token.
因为就像你提到的，所有的收入都会直接回馈给代币。
Because like you said, a 100% of the revenue gets driven back to the token.
这可不是简单的回购销毁模式。
It's not like a simple buyback and burn.
还有那些锁定的投票权机制。
There's there's these locked, you know, voting escrow rights.
就像你说的，没有预挖，也没有早期创始人的配额。
Like you said, there's no pre mine, no early founder allocation.
咱们来聊聊Aerodrome代币到底是怎么运作的，它为什么独特，这样咱们也能给这个讨论做个总结。
Like, so just talk about how the Aerodrome token, like, you know, works and how it exists and why it's unique, and we can kinda put a point on the conversation there.
是的。
Yeah.
谢谢你的提问。
No, thank you for the question.
我觉得从一开始，
I mean, I think from the very beginning,
我们就一直牢记这个领域最根本的原则，努力设计一个真正体现这些原则的协议。
we've always tried to keep in mind the first principles of the space, right, and we've tried to design a protocol that we think is reflective of those first principles.
这不只是因为这么做道德上正确，更是因为只有这样，我们才能构建出更好的系统；而只有共享价值的系统，才能真正打破传统金融和老牌机构那种资金雄厚、势力庞大的垄断。
And not just because it is a virtuous thing, right, but because that is how we build better systems, and in building better systems that share value, that is how we actually go out and disrupt these heavy, well funded incumbents in TradFi and traditional institutions and things like that.
如果我们只是在复制更差的传统公司模式，这个项目注定会失败。
If we are just recreating worse versions of traditional firms and institutions, this project will fail, right?
因为我们没有他们的资源，也没有他们的影响力。
Because we do not have their resources, we do not have their sway.
如果我们只是在复制这些更差的版本，
And if we are just creating worse versions of all of that,
那我们肯定会失败。
then then we will fail.
所以从一开始，我们就把整个协议的设计围绕着这个代币展开。
So that means from the very beginning, we have tried to orient the entire protocol around the token.
这意味着这个代币具有最大的实用性。
That means that token is maximally useful.
它代表着对协议所创造全部价值的完全索取权。
It means it is a claim on 100% of the value that the protocol creates.
这一点之所以重要，有几个原因，对吧？
And that's important for a few reasons, right?
但我认为最重要的一点是，它让我们和系统里的每个参与者利益一致。
But I think one of the one of the most important ones is that it aligns our incentives with those of every other participant within the system.
那五个在Discord里的人，是怎么做到不靠任何风投资金，就成长为第二大或第三大去中心化交易所的呢？
So how do five guys in a Discord, you know, scale all the way up to being the second or third largest decentralized exchange without raising a dollar VC capital?
顺便说一句，我们要对抗的不只是估值数十亿美元的现有巨头，还有那些拥有亿万富翁投资者、真正押注它们成功的公司。
And by the way, going up against not just incumbents valued at multibillions of dollars, but incumbents who have billionaire investors, you know, like invested in their success.
而我们能做到这一点，唯一的办法就是打造一个每个人都是平等参与者的系统，对吧？
Well, the only way we could do that was in building a system in which we were equal participants to everybody else, right?
我们不会出去拉投资、牺牲我们的激励机制。无论你是随便玩玩的投机者、在挖矿，还是从市场上买进，你和团队、和Coinbase Ventures——他们为这个代币做了有史以来最大的一笔流动性投资——都处在完全平等的位置。他们是在链下买入代币，然后锁仓四年，积极参与进来。
We weren't gonna go out and attract capital and compromise our incentives if we said everybody, whether you're a random degen, farming tokens, whether you bought it off the market, you are in the same equal footing as the team, as Coinbase Ventures who made the largest liquid investment they had ever made, you know, buying the the token off chain, and then locking it and participating it for year for four years.
但我真的很喜欢这一点。
But I I like this a lot.
这不仅带来竞争优势，也不仅因为能对齐激励，更关键的是，它从不让我们陷入大多数代币项目都会犯的错误——就是给自己囤一堆根本没什么用的代币。
Not just because it gives competitive edge, not just because it aligns incentives, but because, you know, it never puts us in the position of what I think most token projects do, which is like, they give themselves a bunch of tokens that aren't really good for anything.
他们嘴上不说，但那些代币确实没什么用。
They won't say that, but they aren't really good for anything.
他们总是在代币即将解锁的时候，把大家的情绪炒到最高点。
They get a bunch of people really excited about it, right about the time the tokens are unlocking.
然后他们把代币抛售，彻底失去继续把项目做好的动力，最后跑去海边养老了。
They sell those tokens, so then they lose their incentive to continue to make the thing successful, and then they retire to like a beach somewhere, right?
有很多已经倒闭的协议和链，就是靠这种方式让人大富大贵的。
And there's graveyards of dead protocols and chains that have made people fabulously rich this way.
所以我们从一开始就这么做了，对吧？
So from the very beginning, we did that, right?
所有的价值都直接归到代币上。
100% of the value goes to the token.
每周都会把代币发给流动性提供者。
That token is given out each week to liquidity providers.
这些人提供了大家交易所需的代币。
Those are the people putting up the the tokens that people need to trade against.
这些流动性提供者创造了更多价值，产生的手续费又回流到代币里。
Those liquidity providers, they create more value and fees that goes back to the token.
这样一来，就形成了一个良性循环，这三类人的利益完全一致，共同推动整体增长。
And so you create this flywheel where the incentives of those three groups are aligned and scaling for the overall growth.
不过我要说的是，如果听起来太抽象了，那我换种方式讲：在衍生品和永续合约这个领域里，
But what I like to say is like, if this, you know, seems too heady, right, the way I like to put it is, in the space of like derivatives and perpetuals, right?
没多久以前，还有一段时间，GMX、DYDX这些项目轮番上阵， hype 一阵接一阵。
There was a period of time not that long ago that, you know, we had this rolling cast of characters of GMX, of DYDX, of hype and things like that.
但这个品类里一直没出现一个真正脱颖而出的赢家，直到 Hyperliquid 出现。
But there was no single like breakout winner of the category until of course Hyperliquid.
Hyperliquid 奉行了不少同样的理念。
And Hyperliquid shares a number of these values.
虽然不是完全一样，但已经非常接近了。
It's not the exact same, but it's pretty close.
他们压根没融过资，对吧？
They did not raise any money, right?
也没卖过代币。
They did not sell tokens.
他们把协议创造的所有价值，100% 都返还给了代币。
And they distributed 100% of the value that the protocol creates back to the token.
这次呢，是通过回购的方式来实现的。
In this case, of course, in the form of buybacks.
就这样，他们成了无可争议的领军者，不仅是DeFi中收入最高的协议之一，更是整个品类的绝对龙头。
And in doing so, right, they have become the undisputed leader, right, not just of one of the top revenue producing protocols in DeFi, but the leader of their category.
他们能做到这么赚钱，
And so of the they've done that profitable
可以说是全球最赚钱的公司之一了。
companies in the world.
按人均算，他们的产出简直离谱。
Like, I saw per per employee, they were, like, insanely.
我记得他们公司总共就十一个人左右。
I think there's, like, 11 people that work there.
却能赚上百亿美元。
They're making billions of dollars.
这太不可思议了。
It's crazy.
没错。
Right.
没错。
Right.
这简直难以置信。
It's it's unbelievable.
但这就是链上系统的强大之处。
But that is the power of the these on chain systems.
我认为他们做对的一点是，把100%的价值都分配给了代币，这让他们在链上衍生品交易所这个类别中成为了绝对领导者。
And I think one of the things that they did exactly right was distribute 100% of the value to the token that has made them the leader in that sort of category of derivative on chain like derivatives exchanges.
而我们，从原则上讲，也在现货交易所做着同样的事情。
And with us, we're doing the same basic thing in principle for spot exchanges.
随着我们在EVM生态的扩展，我们非常希望在现货交易所领域胜出——顺便说一句，现货交易所产生的手续费甚至比衍生品交易所还高。
And with our expansion, right across EVM, we very much want to win spot exchanges, which by the way, they produce more fees even than derivatives exchanges.
只是到目前为止，这些代币还没能捕获其中的任何价值。
It's just the tokens have not captured any of that value to date.
所以我们想把同样的原则用到现货交易所上，借助类似HyperLiquid那样的价值飞轮，同样彻底地主导这个领域。
And so we want to take those same principles, apply it to spot exchanges and use the flywheel of value similar to how they did to dominate that category just as decisively as like hyper liquid has dominated theirs.
这太棒了。
I love it.
你要是给我看激励机制，我就给你看结果。
And if you show me the incentives, I will show you the outcome.
我觉得Aerodrome的前景非常光明，潜力巨大。
And I think that the the outcome here for Aerodrome is is, you know, extremely bright, extremely promising.
坦白说，我本人是持币者。
You know, full disclosure, you know, I'm I'm a holder.
布兰登也是持币者。
You know, Brendan's a holder.
所以我们站在你们这边。
So we're in your corner.
我们真心希望你们能成功、能兴旺。
We want you guys to succeed and thrive.
我们在播客里、通讯里，早就聊过很多次了。
We've talked about it a lot in our podcast, on our newsletter, and stuff like that.
非常感谢你今天抽出一小时陪我们聊这么多。
So, look, we really, really greatly appreciate the hour that you spent with us today.
最后一个问题，你希望听众们去哪里呢？
The last thing I'll ask is just where would you like to drive listeners?
是想让他们去 Discord 还是 Telegram？
Do you want them to go to a Discord or a Telegram?
还是去你的邮箱、读博客，或者直接访问网站？
Do you want them to go to your ex, read a blog or just use the website?
当然，你可以在 Twitter 上找到我，用户名是 wakeme Alexander。
Yeah, I mean, you can find me I'm wakeme Alexander on Twitter.
Aerodrome 的 Twitter 账号是 aerodromephi，也可以关注。
You can find Aerodrome on Twitter as well at aerodromephi.
如果你想了解网站，特别是即将推出的重大更新，还有 v3 协议里的新功能，就去 aero.xyz，上面有很多精彩内容。
And if you want to check out the website, especially if you want to read all about the big new launch that is coming, all the exciting things in the v three protocol that are new, would go to aero.xyz, and we've got a lot of good content there.
太好了。
Awesome.
最后一个问题，Aero的大更新什么时候上线？
Last last question, when is the the big Aero update?
七月份左右吗？
July something?
是啊，我们得等那个‘什么时候’的标签最后才好说。
Yeah, just the hashtag when we gotta we gotta get at the end here.
对。
Yeah.
我们现在正在接受审计，你也知道，之前我们聊过安全方面的事。
So we are we are currently in audit, you know, and I think, you know, we talked about the the security side of things.
审计这个过程，我们绝对不会赶时间。
The audit process is something we will not rush in in any form.
这周我们会收到下一轮审计反馈。
So we've got another round of audits coming back this week.
所以我觉得，接下来一两周就能给大家更新进展了。
So I think we'll have an update to share there in the next week or two.
好的。
Okay.
抱歉，Crypto 101 的听众们。
Sorry, Crypto one zero one listeners.
我本想在最后悄悄提一下，但他就像个铁箱，锁得死死的。
I tried to sneak it in there at the end, but, he's an iron lockbox.
目前还没有官方时间表。
We have no official date yet.
不过，Alex，真的感谢你抽出时间。
But, Alex, again, thank you for your time.
大家去 Twitter 或 X 上关注他，顺便去 Aerodrome 做些交易吧。
Everybody go follow him on Twitter, or x, and start making some exchanges on Aerodrome.
希望下个季度或者再过两三个季度还能请你们回来，聊聊新进展和你们取得的成果。
Hopefully, we get you back again soon, next quarter or in a couple quarters, and we'll talk about some of the, the new updates and some of the success you guys have been having.
听起来不错。
Sounds great.
谢谢邀请我来。
Thanks for having me.
太棒了。
Awesome.
感谢大家收听，下周同一时间、同一地点，我们继续带来更多精彩嘉宾。
Thank you everybody for listening, and come back same time, same place next week for some more great guests.
嘉宾。
Guests.
谢谢。
Thanks.
在Cox，您的网络和手机资费五年内不会上涨。
At Cox, your Internet and mobile price won't change for five years.
这五年里，您会迎来五个新年、五个情人节、五个独立日、五个万圣节、五个感恩节，还有五个转瞬即逝的夏天。
That's five New Year celebrations, five Valentine's Days, five Fourth of Julys, five Halloweens, five Thanksgivings, and five summers that go by too fast.
无论发生什么，我们的五年价格锁定承诺都能确保您的费用始终不变。
Through it all, your price stays the same with our five year price lock guarantee.
Cox，领先一步。
Cox, a step ahead.
需搭配两吉比特网络和无限流量手机套餐。
Requires two gig speeds and gig unlimited mobile.
价格锁定不包含税费。
Taxes and fees excluded from price lock.
使用超过20吉比特后，移动数据速度将降低。
Mobile data speeds reduced after 20 gigs.
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