第749集：Coinbase人工智能负责人详解代理金融的未来

然后它就说，对，你确实持有这个ETF或者这个加密货币ETF，你可以换成另一个，这样就能因为托管费省下不少钱，对吧？

And it was like, yeah, you actually own this ETF or this crypto ETF, and you can switch to this other one and it'll save you like X amount because of the custodial fees, right?

然后我就想，天哪。

And it was like, oh my gosh.

我记得那是在He

I think it was on He

他说，哦，持仓的重叠度几乎一样。

was like, oh, the overlap in the holdings is, like, almost the same.

就是相关性高达99%，但你却付着更高的费用。

It's like you have, like, a 99% correlation, but you're paying a higher fee.

所以，对。

And so Yeah.

现在，既然大家都能拿到这些数据，而且能立刻抓取所有这些信息，那么ETF和共同基金的费用也会跟着降到最低。

AI, now that everybody has this data, and they could scrape all this data immediately, like, it's gonna be a race to the bottom for for fees for ETFs too and mutual funds.

因为你可以想象，大多数AI和智能代理之类的都会做出这样的选择。

Because you would imagine that most forms of AI and agents and whatever would make this choice.

所以那些收取极高托管费的公司，如果AI开始接管人们的投资组合，应该会迫使大量客户流失。

So those those groups out there that have these really high custodian fees, what you should have if you have AI taking over people's portfolios is it should be kind of forcing a mass exodus.

我不是想制造恐慌，而是说，嘿。

Not to cause fear, but it would be like, hey.

大家突然意识到，你付的费用高得多，而市场上还有其它费用更低、相关性几乎一样的选择。

Everyone all of a sudden knows that you're paying a significantly higher fee and that there's other options out there with a near identical correlation.

所以，Bryce，我觉得你说得对。

And so, Bryce, I think you're right.

我觉得这会促使大家变得更清醒，而正因为大家更清醒了，那些掌权的人或者机构为了竞争，就不得不把费用降下来。

I think that that kind of incentivizes a world where people are more aware, but because they're more aware, it incentivizes these people in charge or those institutions in charge to really lower those fees and make them more competitive because Yeah.

对。

Yeah.

其实道理差不多。

It's kind of the the same concept.

我是说，马斯克也提过这事儿，但他也就是嗓门最大那个。

I mean, I like, Elon's talked about it, but, like, he's just the the loudest mouth.

我相信AI领域里还有好几个人在讨论AI的通缩特性。

I'm sure there's several other people in the AI space that talk about, like, the deflationary nature of AI.

比如说，如果每天都能创造出这么多产品和服务，全天候不停的话，那就会把产品和服务的成本真正压下来。

Like, if you could have all these products and services, you know, being created every day, you know, all day, then it drives the cost of product and services actually down.

所以这就是为什么AI长期来看可能是一种通缩性的东西。

So that's why AI could be a deflationary, sort of sort of thing over the long term.

对，托管费和管理费，那肯定是最明显的例子。

And, yeah, the the custodial fees and the management fees, that that's an obvious one for sure.

不过，我想我们就在这里停一下，听听你的反馈，但我还有好多其他问题想继续聊下去。

But I, you know, I I guess we'll pause there and get your feedback, but there there's so many other questions that I just wanna, just keep going.

你对这个概念怎么看？

But what what do you think about that that concept?

我完全同意。

I I totally agree.

感觉AI在某种程度上就是软件的民主化，以及把各种不同的产品和服务组合起来的能力。

It feels like AI in some sense is sort of the democratization of of software and the ability to compose these different products and services together.

而且我觉得这不仅是从ETF提供商那里，提供最低的费用，也涉及到交易所和各类平台。

And I think it trickles not only from ETF providers and then providing the best fees, but also just exchanges and venues broadly.

如果我的智能代理能够把我的账户迁移到另一个更便宜的地方，同时保持同样的安全级别，那它为什么不这么做呢？

If my agent has the ability to go migrate my account somewhere else that's cheaper while still in the same level of security, why wouldn't it do that?

当AI能够自由访问任何它想要的东西，而人类传统上会遇到各种阻碍时，这些平台真正的护城河在哪里？

What's the real moat for these platforms when an AI can go access whatever it

想要的东西，而人类传统上会遇到各种阻碍时，这些平台真正的护城河在哪里？

wants without having the friction that a human traditionally has?

对。

Yeah.

你知道，还有一个问题。

You know, here's another one.

对吧？

Right?

想象一下那些可能对加密货币领域不太了解的人，他们需要在不同区块链之间转移资产，做各种操作。

Imagine people who just don't have maybe the general knowledge of the crypto space to send things between different blockchains and do this and that.

再想象一下，你有一堆资金分散在不同地方，然后你说，嘿。

And imagine you have a bunch of funds somewhere, and you're like, hey.

我想把这些都整合成USDC，放到我的Coinbase账户里，或者我的其他账户里，我的Coinbase钱包里，但这些资金分布在不同的区块链上。

I want all of this consolidated into USDC in my Coinbase account or in my, you know, wherever account, in my Coinbase wallet, but it's a bunch of different blockchains.

所以它可能知道，嘿。

So maybe it knows, hey.

最划算的方式是，我先把所有资金转到这条链上，这是最便宜的选择。

The most optimal way to do this is I'm gonna transfer it all to this chain, which is the cheapest option.

你知道，把所有资金都转到这里，在那里兑换，然后它们就会这样出现在钱包里。

You know, send it all here, convert it there, and then it'll all appear in the wallet that way.

而且它能迅速找出最便宜、最快的方案来完成这一切。

And it can kind of instantly identify the cheapest, fastest option to kind of do all of this.

我觉得普通人可能知道有这种操作，但可能不知道怎么操作，而且担心自己会犯错，把加密货币弄丢，还有各种风险，比如跨链风险。

And I would say the average person might know that that's an option, but might not know how to do it and might be afraid that they're gonna make a mistake and lose their crypto and yada yada, take a bridge risk.

如果这能成为一个一站式解决方案，解决这些问题，那我觉得这就是另一个可以看到它被利用的方式。

And if this can kind of just be an all in one solution to solve those issues, that's just, I guess, another way that you could see this be taken advantage of.

对。

Yeah.

完全同意。

Totally.

我们还有很多需要改进的地方，因为目前监管要求每个单独的操作都需要有人工介入确认。

There's a lot that we need to do to improve it because right now, it's it's regulatory requirements to have human in the loop sort of tap to execute on every individual action.

所以我们正在朝着一个更灵活的方向发展，让顾问可以代表你进行交易。

So we're moving toward a world where we can make this more discretionary, and the advisor can trade $24.07 on your behalf.

但对于今天就想这么做的用户，我们有一个类似“Coinbase 代理”的东西。

But for users who wanna do that today, we have, like, a Coinbase for agents.

这是我们的 MCP，让你可以接入现有的任何代理，进行全自动交易。

It's it's our MCP that lets you just plug into whatever existing agent you have and do all this autonomous trading.

这样你就可以运行各种有趣的策略。

So you can run all these fun strategies.

比如我现在就把我的代理连接到了一个 Hyperliquid 钱包和 Coinbase 交易所。

Like, what I have right now is I have my agent connected to a Hyperliquid wallet and connected to the Coinbase exchange.

在Hyperliquid上，每当那些衍生品的资金费率朝着某个方向走的时候，基本上就是说我可以做空那个资产，然后从中赚钱，我的代理就会自动去做，同时在Coinbase上买入等量的股票。

And on Hyperliquid, whenever the funding rates on those derivatives are are, you know, pointed in a certain direction, basically meaning I can short the asset and earn money from shorting that asset, I have my agent do that and automatically buy an equivalent amount of equities on Coinbase.

然后我就能赚到一些收益，而这一切都是我的代理在帮我操作。

And I can earn some sort of yield while just, like, my agent is all doing it for me.

像这样的有趣玩法还有很多。

There's all sorts of fun things like that.

比如在Polymarket和CallSheet之间做套利。

Arbitrage on, like, Polymarket versus CallSheet.

你知道，有无数种方式可以让你的代理开始帮你赚钱。

You know, there's a million different ways that you can have your agent start to make money.

天哪。

Holy smokes.

我的意思是，这太不可思议了，因为如果你想做这个，哪怕只是两年前或者去年，那就会是，好吧。

I mean, this is incredible because, you know, if you wanted to do that, even just know, let's call it two years ago or last year, it would be like, okay.

你得会Python，一种编程语言。

Well, you gotta know Python, a coding language.

你得对这些东西有非常深入的了解和熟练度。

You have to, have, like, you know, deep deep level of proficiency and understanding of all this stuff.

现在就像，兄弟，你会说英语吗？

Now it's like, bro, do you speak English?

或者你可以用任何语言跟它说。

Or or or you could speak to it in any language.

我敢肯定，如果你能做到那一点，而且你能想出这个主意，你就能成为一个套利交易者。

I'm sure it's like, if you could do that and you could come up with the idea, you could, become an arbitrage trader.

你可以成为一个自动化的趋势跟踪者之类的。

You can become, you know, an automated trend follower or whatever.

这真的很酷。

It's, it's super, cool.

但我想听听你的看法的一件事是，这个理论几周前突然出现在我脑海里，然后我听到别人也在谈论它，就是说，每个分析师，比如说每个股票分析师或加密货币分析师，在基金的交易台上工作，肯定都在用某种基础模型，比如ChatGPT的Soul 5.6或者Claude Fable之类的，就是用来做压力测试我的想法，或者帮我找一些想法，但现在每个控制资金的人，甚至只是在家里的普通人，都在用这个。

But one of the things I I wanted to get your opinion on, it's this theory that kinda popped into my mind few weeks back, and then I heard somebody also talking about it, where, like, every analyst, say every equity analyst or every crypto analyst working on the desk, at a fund, I'm sure is using some, you know, foundational model like, you know, ChattyPT's soul five six or Claude Fable, like, one of these things to just like, hey, stress test my idea or, you know, surface some ideas and like but now everybody who's controlling money and and even just normal people at home like are are using this.

我担心的是，这会让市场变得有点脆弱，因为每个人都会听Claude的。

And my worry is that it's gonna make the market a little bit more fragile because everybody's gonna be, like, listening to Claude.

Claude 呢，你知道的，你用的 Claude 和我用的是同一个，别人用的也是同一个。

Claude is kind of, you know, the Claude that you run is the same Claude that I run, is the same Claude that, you know, somebody else runs.

不过你可以导入不同的 Markdown 文件。

Now you could put in different, you know, markdown files.

你也可以接入不同的数据集，这样能得出一些独特的见解。

You could have different datasets, like, piped in to, like, get some unique spin.

但你觉得，大家都用这些工具做研究，会不会让市场变得更脆弱？

But do you think, like, everybody using these for, their research is, like, causing a more fragile market?

对。

Yeah.

这点说得太好了。

That that's a great point.

我觉得，用一个很直观的说法就是，如果大家都把指令丢给AI，让它去操作，

I think, you know, one very, coherent way to put this is if everybody puts in their clod, hey.

然后让AI去赚钱的话，这些策略之间的差异就会变得非常小，结果就是大量的AI都在执行完全相同的操作。

Go make me money, the divergence between those strategies is gonna be very minimal, and it's gonna result in a lot of clods running the same exact thing.

所以我觉得，某种程度上，这确实取决于用户，责任还是在用户身上，他们得给这些智能体提供想法和所谓的“阿尔法”，它们才能真正做出有利可图的交易。

So I I do think in some sense that it really does come down to the user, and the onus is still in the user to provide the ideas and the, like, quote, unquote alpha that they have to these agents for them to actually do any sort of profitable trading.

我不太确定，以我们现在看到的AI或智能体交易的规模，它是否真的会让市场变得脆弱。

I don't know necessarily if it makes the market fragile at the scale at which we're seeing AI or agentic trading today.

而且说实话，如果真到了那一步，我觉得那反而是个好迹象，说明智能体交易有很强大的未来。

And, frankly, if it got to that point and I think it'd be a great sign that agentic trading has a really strong future.

同时，这也带来了一个我们一直在思考的机会：怎么让智能体获取专有数据，帮助它们做决策？

And what it also does is it opens up this opportunity that we've been thinking a lot about for how do you give agents access to proprietary data that help them make decisions?

所以，我怎么能不仅通过Coinbase MCP把我的智能体接入我的Coinbase账户，还能让它访问Artemis、Masari、Nansen、CoinGlass这些不同的数据源，帮助我的智能体做出更明智的决策？

So how can I plug in my agent to not only my Coinbase account through the Coinbase MCP, but also can I give it access to Artemis and Masari and Nansen and CoinGlass and all of these different data sources that can help my agent make more well informed decisions?

我们正在发布的一个让我挺兴奋的功能，就是你的智能体可以直接用你的Coinbase余额来支付x四零二服务。

And one of the things we're releasing that I'm pretty excited about is the ability for your agent to pay for x four zero two services directly from your Coinbase balance.

所以现在我可以告诉我的智能体，嘿，

So now I can tell my agent, hey.

每天早上，看看链上聪明钱在往哪儿流动，然后跟着他们走。

Every single morning, let's see where the smart money is moving on chain, and let's just follow them.

我可以做到这一点，设置好之后，完全不需要我在场就能运行。

And I can do that, have it set up, run entirely without me there.

我可以向它询问关于 Artemis 的信息，比如鲸鱼资金的动向，或者我们在 Arkham 等不同平台上看到的资金流动情况。以前这些都需要有人具备一定的技术知识和熟练度才能设置好，更不用说还要付费订阅了，现在我的代理都能以非常低的成本获得这些。

I can ask it for information about Artemis and, you know, what the whale movements are or or where we're seeing different different money moving around on on Arkham or all these different platforms that previously would require somebody to have a decent bit of technical knowledge and proficiency to get it set up, not to mention paying for a subscription, all now available to my agent very cheaply.

嗯。

And Mhmm.

我认为，这将成为不同模型之间以及它们决策方式差异的一部分。

That, I think, is gonna be part of the differentiation between various different models and how they make decisions.

关键在于它们背后的数据。

It's the data behind them.

所以，你刚才提到了 Artemis，还有 DeFi Llama、CoinGecko、CoinMarketCap，以及所有这些不同的数据提供商，比如 CoinGlass。

So is every, like, you just mentioned Artemis, and there's, you know, DeFi, Llama, and there's, you know, CoinGecko, CoinMarketCap, all these different data providers, CoinGlass.

你的意思是，x four zero two 可能会终结年度或月度订阅模式吗？

Are you saying that potentially, you know, x four zero two could be the death of the annual or monthly subscription?

因为很多时候，如果我想用 DeFi Llama 之类的服务，我会想，我真的要每月付几百美元吗？还是说我只需要其中一小部分数据，就只要那一个东西。

Because a lot of the times, you know, if I wanna, you know, use DeFi Lom or something like, oh, do I really wanna pay for, like, you know, monthly, like, you know, whatever it is, hundreds of dollars, or do I just I really just want this one little piece of data in it, and I just want that one thing.

X402 能自己实现这个吗，还是说 DeFi Llama 也得参与进来？

Does X402 enable that, on its own, or does DeFi Llama also have to, like, opt in to that?

基本上就是个双边市场。

Like, it's a two sided marketplace, basically.

对吧？

Right?

对。

Yeah.

双边市场。

Two sided marketplace.

但我刚才提到的那些名字，现在都已经上线了。

But, I mean, all those names I just mint mentioned are all on today.

所以你可以直接给你的代理一个钱包，然后说，嘿。

So you can literally just give your agent a wallet and say, hey.

去查查 Nancy。

Go check on Nancy.

去看看Arsk和Arkham。

Go check on Arsk, Arkham.

对。

Yeah.

这样的名单还有很多很多。

The list goes on and on and on.

Masari，所有大数据提供商，你知道的，像Coinmarketcap、CoinGecko等等，都已经和X402集成了。

Masari, all of the big data providers, you know, Coinmarketcap, CoinGecko, etcetera, are all integrated with X402.

X402。

X402.

而且你可以直接让你的代理像你今天描述的那样去支付。

And you can just literally have your agent go pay exactly as you described today.

所以，我们在供应端看到了非常好的进展，特别是这个交易用例。

So, like, we're seeing some really good traction on the supply side for these, specifically this trading use case.

现在大家基本上都承认，构建这种数据市场是一个很有吸引力的机会。

Everyone kind of is now acknowledging that there's a there's a compelling opportunity to build out this sort of data marketplace.

如果你熟悉OpenRouter，它能把所有不同的大语言模型和AI模型聚合到一个平台上，我觉得X402某种程度上是一个机会，可以把这种聚合模式扩展到不仅仅是AI行业。

Like, if you're familiar with OpenRouter as this ability to aggregate all the different LLMs and and AI models behind a single platform, I think X402 is an opportunity to, in some sense, disintermediate that for more than just the AI industry.

现在你可以访问所有这些不同的东西，它们组合在一起效果更好，对用户来说也更容易使用。

And now you can access all of these different things, which are actually better together and and easier for a user than it otherwise would be.

有没有一个资源，能展示一个活的、不断更新的列表，列出所有启用了X402的人？

Is there a resource that shows us, like, a living, ever evolving resource of everybody that you that that has x four zero two enabled.

就像你说的，刚才提到的那些名字，他们都启用了X402。

So it's like, you know, you said, oh, all those names that you just mentioned, they all have x four zero two enabled.

我就想，好吧。

I'm like, okay.

我，我，加密货币播客。

I I crypto podcast.

我，我每天都交易。

I I trade every day.

说实话，我之前还真不知道这个。

Like, I didn't actually even know that.

所以我就想，是不是应该有个网站能追踪所有这些信息？

And so I'm like, I should just is there a a website that tracks all this?

然后还有，你有没有什么好的资源可以推荐给我们的听众，他们可能会特别激动。

And then also, where's a good resource that you would recommend our listeners who are like, oh my gosh.

他们简直要流口水了。

They're foaming at the mouth.

他们特别想学怎么做这个。

I would love to learn how to do this.

就像你们有没有类似Anthropic学院那样的东西？

Like, what's your guys', you know, version of Anthropic Academy or something like

对。

Yep.

是的。

Yeah.

所以最有用的两个资源，一个是agentic.market。

So the the the two resources that are most helpful, one is just agentic.market.

那是我们的网站，汇总了所有可用的服务商，至少是一个精选列表。

It's our website that services all of the different providers that are available or at least like a curated list of them.

然后要查看实际使用情况、交易量之类的数据，我推荐去 x402scan.com 看看。

And then to actually see stats about, like, what's being used and volume and whatnot, I would recommend checking out x402scan.com.

至于从哪里开始学习的资源，其实主要就两个地方。

In terms of resources on where to get started, there's really two places.

第一，你可以直接让你的代理访问 coinbase.com/skill.md，告诉它去设置一个代理钱包，或者把你的 Coinbase 账户准备好，这样你就能开始为这些服务付费了。

One, you can just point your agent at coinbase.com/skill.md and tell it to get set up with an agentic wallet or or get your Coinbase account ready to go so that you can start paying for these things.

或者你也可以去看我们的文档，地址是 docs.cdp.coinbase.com。

Or you can go to our documentation, which is at docs.cdp.coinbase.com.

这两个资源应该都包含了你入门所需的一切。

Both of those resources should have everything you need to get started.

这比你想象的要简单得多。

It's so much simpler than you can imagine.

一旦你设置好钱包，基本上就不用再操心了。

Like, once you have a wallet set up, it's, like, the last thing you ever really think about it.

现在你的代理已经准备好了。

Now you're just, now your agent's ready to go.

你可以在ChatGPT、Claude、Perplexity等所有地方使用它。

You do it on CheshpT, Claude, Perplexity, everywhere.

太酷了。

How freaking cool.

天哪。

Man.

那么，代理需要交税吗，还是拥有代理的人来交税？

Do do do the agents, pay taxes, or does the human, who owns the agent pay the taxes?

拥有代理的人来交税，很不幸。

Human who owns the agent pays the taxes, unfortunately.

这仍然是一个很大的未解决问题。

There's still a I big, outstanding know.

我知道。

I know.

对。

Yeah.

我觉得在智能体领域，身份认证和税务是少数几个还有很大空白、可以大展拳脚的地方。

We're we're I think identity and taxes are one of the few areas with agents that that there's a lot of greenfield space.

我猜未来会出现类似 X402 的标准，甚至可能由 X402 基金会主导，来规范身份认证，或者探讨如何赋予这些智能体在互联网上更多的自主权。

And I imagine we'll see a very similar standard to what came out with X402 or potentially even from the X402 foundation around identity or how you start to give these agents a little bit more sovereignty on the Internet.

所以说，我们聊了这么多关于应用和使用智能体的不同方式。

So, I mean, man, we have talked about so many different ways to apply and use agents.

我脑子里有两个问题。第一，目前大家是怎么最多地使用智能体的？

Two questions come to my mind is number one, how are you seeing agents being used the most right now?

然后你觉得这种情况以后会改变吗？

And then do you think that that will change?

如果会的话，你觉得五年后智能体最会被用在哪些方面？

And if so, how do you think agents will be used the most in five years?

我觉得今天比较中规中矩的答案是编程，特别是在企业环境里。

I think the boring answer for today is is coding, especially in in enterprise settings.

至少我看到的，token 消耗量最大的地方，确实是编程。

At least the one that I see the most in terms of where the most token volume is is is really happening.

这很合理。

It makes sense.

企业客户对价格不太敏感。

The the enterprises are very price insensitive.

我个人也不在乎我的代理在花 Brian 的钱跑任务，所以不如让它继续跑着。

I personally don't care when my agent is chugging through credits on on Brian's dime, so might as well keep on running those.

在面向消费者的领域，我最近看到一个图表，最热门的用例是像替代 Google 的搜索、陪伴，还有像心理治疗或 AI 朋友之类的，这有点反乌托邦，但确实很有意思。

In the in sort of the consumer facing world, I saw some chart recently, and it's like the the top use cases are around, like, just searching as a replacement for Google and companionship and, like, therapy or, like, an AI friend, which is somewhat dystopian, but but still, like, very interesting.

我觉得现在的情况是，责任几乎都在这些聊天界面上，比如 ChatGPT、Claude，或者其他人们常用的平台，它们需要展示一些更高级的功能，让用户能轻松直观地使用。

And I think where we are right now, the onus is almost on these chat interfaces, ChatGPT, Claude, wherever people are going, to expose some of the more advanced functionality and make it easy and intuitive for users to interact with.

人们熟悉聊天机器人或聊天框，因为这是他们用 Google 时习惯的方式。

People know the chatbot or chat box because it's it's what they're used to with Google.

他们不一定知道你可以让它帮你查邮件，或者开始处理你生活中的其他事情，比如帮你订晚餐。

They don't necessarily know that you can have it check your email or start to interact with all these other things in your personal life, make dinner reservations for you.

这类功能，我觉得还需要一个让用户逐步发现的过程，才能把现在数十亿使用 AI 的用户引导到这种新的交互模式里。

That type of stuff, I think there is going to be a bit of a discovery process to bring the now billions of users interacting with AI into this new paradigm.

我们确实能看到像 OpenClaw 和 Claude Code 这样的前沿工具在探索这个方向，但对普通大众来说，这些工具还是太难上手了。

And and, you know, we see the frontier of it with things like OpenClaw and and ClawdCode and those tools, but they're still very difficult to be accessed by the, traditional mainstream consumer audience.

所以我认为，无论是应用、插件，还是这些聊天平台本身，都需要共同努力，让这一切变得更简单、更普及。

So I think there's an effort to be done both by apps and and plug ins and all these different things, but also by these chat harnesses themselves to make that easier for everyone.

没错。

Yeah.

教育领域也在大力推动，像我们这样的人正努力让这一切变得尽可能简单，方便大家接触、学习和使用，比如只推荐那些值得信赖的产品之类的。

And there's there's big efforts on, on the education side as well, guys like us just trying to trying to make this as easy as possible for people to access and learn about and do, you know, just just work with trusted products and stuff like that.

真的特别高兴能邀请到你来做客。

So, man, we're super happy that we were able to have you on.

再问你几个问题。

Couple more questions for you.

你知道的，稳定币显然是这其中非常重要的一部分。

You know, stablecoins are obviously, a big part of this.

USDC，来自Circle，和Coinbase合作了。

USDC, from Circle partnered up with Coinbase.

在x四零二上，能用其他加密货币支付吗？

Is there an ability to pay with other cryptocurrencies on x four zero two?

比如说我有比特币。

Say I have Bitcoin.

比如说我有Solana或者某个随机的模因币。

Say I have, Solana or some random meme coin.

现在或者将来，有没有可能把所有这些都整合到x四零二里？

Is there the ability now or potentially in the future to kind of all integrate that in x four zero two?

对。

Yeah.

完全没问题。

Totally.

这个现在就可以用。

That's that's available today.

哦，哇。

So Oh, wow.

说到网络支持，每个不同的币链基金会都负责自己的实现。

In terms of in terms of network support, each of the different coin chain foundations is responsible for their own implementation.

X402本身其实是由一个独立的基金会管理的，我们把它从Coinbase分出来了。

X402 itself is actually governed in its own separate foundation, so we spun it out of Coinbase.

现在它是由Coinbase、Cloudflare、Stripe、AWS、Shopify、Amex、Visa、Mastercard，以及你能想到的所有支付处理和相关领域的大公司组成的。

And now it's it's a body of Coinbase, Cloudflare, Stripe, AWS, Shopify, Amex, Visa, Mastercard, all of the big names that you can imagine in payments processing and and related fields.

特别有意思的是，大家总觉得X402只支持加密货币。

And what's particularly interesting about that is there's this perception that X402 is crypto only.

虽然它确实优先支持加密货币，但那些卡组织完全没理由不能最终加入自己的网络方案，或者比如在他们的卡网络上支持基于X402的交易。

And while it's crypto first, there's absolutely no reason that any of those card providers couldn't eventually add their own network scheme or support X402 based transactions on their card network, for example.

虽然Coinbase特别相信稳定币会是最便宜、最快、最高效的选择，而且今天，我觉得超过99%的代理交易，或者说至少X402的交易，都是用USDC进行的，因为商家更喜欢稳定货币。

And though Coinbase specifically believes that stablecoin is gonna be the cheapest, fastest, most efficient option, and today, I think over 99% of agentic transactions or at least x four zero two transactions are happening using USDC because it's what merchants prefer as a stable currency.

你完全可以根据自己的需要扩展到任何东西。

There's absolutely no reason you can expand that into anything you want.

哇。

Wow.

太酷了。

So cool.

现在最前沿的是什么？

What's, like, on the cutting edge right now?

就是说，你关注的那些，你知道，我总喜欢问专家，你最兴奋的是什么？

Like, you know, where you're looking at you know, I always like to ask experts kind of like, you know, what what is it that you're really excited about?

因为你们已经建成了所有这些。

Because there's all this stuff that you've already built.

那些都是过去的事了。

It's in the past.

已经运行起来了。

It's working.

你就像，我的意思是，因为即使我问关于那些不同网络的问题，我以为你会说，哦，对。

You're like I mean, because even when I asked the question about, like, oh, all these different networks, I thought you were gonna say, oh, yeah.

那已经在计划里了。

That's on the road map.

就是说，最终我们会做到的。

Like, eventually, we'll get there.

但你现在感觉，我们早就超越那个了。

But, like, you're like, we're breezing past that.

那你们现在最前沿的是什么？

So what's on the cutting edge for you guys?

对。

Yeah.

我觉得最主要的是，我们看到了非常惊人的，你知道，这是个双边市场。

I I think the main thing is we've seen incredible sort of you know, it's this two sided marketplace.

我们有供给和需求。

We have supply and demand.

供给方面一直非常出色。

The the supply side has been amazing.

亚马逊网络服务现在正在上线，实际上就是为所有企业构建者提供x四零二支付和发现服务。

We have Amazon Web Services going live now with, like, literally x four zero two payments and discovery for all of their enterprise builders of of agents.

比如，采用率简直惊人。

Like, the the adoption has been incredible.

Cloudflare也宣布，你可以开始用x四零二基础交易来给你的网站设置门槛。

And and Cloudflare's announcing that you can start, you know, gating your websites behind x four zero two basis transactions.

所以，如果有代理访问你的网站，你今天不会从中获得任何收入，但你可以让代理支付一笔微交易来完成访问。

So you if you have an agent that comes to your site, you're not gonna make any revenue off of that today, but you can have an agent, you know, pay a microtransaction to do that instead.

不过，这些都是在供应端的。

All of that's on the supply side, though.

我们还没有看到任何真正的消费者需求端的采用。

And we haven't seen any real, you know, consumer demand side adoption.

我们正在思考的一部分是，作为Coinbase，我们能做些什么来推动这一点？

And part of what we're thinking about is, as Coinbase, what can we do to help drive that?

我们的核心竞争力在哪里？

Where's our sort of core competency?

其实说到底，这就是一种交易行为。

And really, the truth is that's that's trading.

所以我觉得，通过我们正在做的把代理式交易落地的努力，还有我之前提到的那个飞轮效应——代理去付费获取高质量数据，让交易更赚钱，从而增加对数据的需求——我认为我们会看到代理式交易和支付在通用资金管理领域同时取得早期的初步进展。

So I think through the work that we're doing to sort of bring agentic trading to life and that flywheel I talked about earlier around agent goes off and pays for access to premium data that makes their trades more profitable, therefore increases the demand for data, that's where I think we're gonna see a lot of this early initial traction for for agentic trading and payments both happening together in, like, general money management.

这是第一点。

So that's one.

第二点则更加前沿，让我特别兴奋的是，作为一个加密货币爱好者，我很期待能看到我们能把完全去中心化的自主代理推向什么程度。

The other one that's, like, really far out that I'm super excited about is, like, the the crypto nerd in me is is really excited to see how far we can push the realms of, like, a fully decentralized autonomous agent.

所以，能不能让它以一种真正像去中心化生命体的方式运行？

So, like, can you run this in such a way that it really feels like a true decentralized life form?

你只需要给它一个钱包。

You just give it a wallet.

它自己支付托管费用。

It pays for its own hosting.

它自己承担基础设施和服务等各项开销，这样根本没法把它关掉。

It pays for its own infrastructure and services and all this different stuff such that there's really no way to shut it down.

这想法确实有点吓人，但它是不可避免的，而且我很期待看到它开始变成现实，毕竟所有的基础设施和技术都已经就位了。

And it's it's a bit of a scary thought, but it's something that's inevitable, and it's something that I'm I'm quite excited to see start to come to life now that all the infrastructure and technology is in place.

你想对正在听节目的听众说些什么呢？

What do you say to the to the person that's listening out there?

也许他们不太懂技术，觉得这一切有点让人不知所措或者吓人。

Maybe they're not too tech savvy and it just seems a bit overwhelming or intimidating.

你会怎么跟他们说，让他们觉得更熟悉、更安心，或者让他们觉得这不是一座难以逾越的大山，不会觉得‘我不知道该怎么做’？

What do you maybe say to them to get them a little bit more familiar or comfortable or make it seem like it's not this big mountain of, like, I don't know how I'm gonna do this.

比如，我可能会打开电脑，能上交易所，但对我来说已经很多了。

Like, I maybe turn on my computer, and I can get on to an exchange, but, like, that's a lot for me.

这些人有前进的路吗？

Is there a path forward for those people?

当然有。

Absolutely.

对。

Yeah.

这就是我们在应用里打造Coinbase Advisor的原因。

This is why we're building Coinbase Advisor inside the app.

你知道，一键就能搞定。

You know, it's one tap away.

如果你更习惯用ChatGPT，设置起来也就一分钟的事。

If you're more comfortable interacting with ChatGPT, it takes you literally a minute to get set up.

如果你担心你的智能体会失控，把你的余额搞砸，你可以开启一个设置，这样每一次操作，都会弹出一个漂亮的小窗口，你必须手动确认，智能体才能执行。

If you're concerned that your agent is gonna go rogue and blow up your balance, you can have a setting on where literally every single interaction, there's a nice widget that pops up, and you have to manually approve all of those before your agent can do it.

所以我觉得这跟自动驾驶汽车很像。

So think it's very analogous to self driving cars.

你知道，十年前，要是有人告诉我们，我们会坐在一辆能自己开的车里，你肯定会觉得自己疯了。

You know, a decade ago, if any of us thought we would be sitting in a car that can drive itself, you'd call you'd call yourself crazy.

但一开始只是车道辅助。

But it started with just lane assist.

一开始是宣传平行停车有多容易的广告。

It started with with ads for parallel parking and how easy that is.

现在我们看到这项技术不断进步，用户信任度也在大幅提升。

And and now we're seeing this massive progression in both the improvements in this technology and the user trust.

而这一切，正是从这里开始的。

And, really, that's where it starts.

所以我建议大家多去试试，多去摸索一下。

So I'll just encourage people to to play around with it and poke around with it.

我保证，这比你想的要简单得多。

I promise you it's easier than you think.

对。

Yeah.

太厉害了。

That's incredible.

自动驾驶汽车。

Self driving cars.

我是说，我们现在讨论的是家里的机器人。

I mean, we're we're talking about the robots in the house.

这将会是未来非常重要的一部分。

This is gonna be, this is gonna be a huge piece of the future.

我是说，Grok 机器人真的超级酷。

I mean, Grok bot thing is super cool.

就像，基本上你有很多不同的小型 AI 代理。

Like, it's it's basically like you have all these different, little AI agent.

就像，这是同样的概念，但我可以想象，比如，想给我家的 Roomba 发个短信。

Like, it's it's the same kind of concept, but I could just imagine, like, wanting to, like, you know, text my my Roomba.

然后说，嘿，把厨房打扫干净，你就在 Grok 的界面里。

Be like, hey, clean clean the, the the kitchen, and you're just in the Grock bot interface.

然后，你知道，其中一个角色就是你的 Roomba，你就在给它发指令，或者你的 Optimus 机器人，嘿，去洗碗。

And, you know, one of the characters is is your Roomba, and you're just texting it demands or your Optimus robot, hey, go clean the dishes.

我跟别人说过这个。

And I was telling somebody else about this.

我当时说，用 Claude 来教一个技能。

I was like, using, Claude to teach a skill.

所以，你知道，我每天都会做一些固定的事情，比如市场报告、仓位报告之类的，你就可以说，看着我，跟着我做。

And so, you know, I have, you know, certain things that I do every single day whether it's market reports and, you know, position reports and that kind of stuff where you could just be like, you know, watch me, ride along with me.

现在有个按钮了。

And there's a button now.

我是说，Grock有，ChattypuT也有，就是教它一项技能。

I mean, Grock has it, ChattypuT has it, teach a skill.

它会录屏记录你的操作。

And so it screen records your actions.

然后你可以登录、点击、导出文件、上传到Google Drive或者其他地方，还能做分析。

And it allows you to, you know, log in, click around, export things, upload it to a Google Drive or wherever, create do analysis on it.

然后你可以说，每天永远都这么做。

And then you could say, run that every day forever.

然后它就会自动执行。

And it's like, it just does it.

这真的太酷了。

And, it it's so cool.

然后我就想，天哪。

And then I was like, oh my gosh.

这就是我们将来要用机器人做的事情。

That's gonna be what we do with robots.

它会看着我们洗碗、叠衣服或者把衣服收好。

We're gonna it's gonna watch us, do our dishes or fold our laundry or put our clothes away.

它会看我们做一两次，然后它就会说，好的。

It's gonna watch us do it one or two times, and then it's gonna say, okay.

谢谢你，布莱斯。

Thank you, Bryce.

我明白这个任务了。

I understand, you know, the task.

以后你什么时候想让我做这件事，就跟我说，洗衣服或者别的什么。

Now whenever you want me to do this task, tell me, do my laundry or whatever.

然后它就直接去做了。

And it's just going to do it.

而且就是，你知道，有些机器人会预装一些技能，只需要你提供空间映射。

And it's just, you know, some will come preloaded with certain skills and it'll just need your spatial mapping.

但我觉得，对我来说，这真是一个令人兴奋、令人兴奋的时代。

But I mean, this is to me, just such an exciting, exciting time.

而且挺有意思的，像我和布伦丹这样的人，我们一开始是加密货币交易员和投资者什么的，现在我们却在聊机器人和AI的未来。

And it's funny, like, how, you know, guys like me and Brendan, we started out as crypto traders and investors and stuff, and here we are having a conversation about the future of robots and AI.

这就像，你知道，让我感觉就像第一次听说加密货币时一样兴奋。

It's like and that's you know, it makes me feel just as excited as when I heard about crypto the first time.

这让我感觉就像对无国籍货币、非主权控制执行层和结算这些概念一样兴奋。

It makes me feel just as excited as, like, under you know, this concept of, you know, stateless money and, you know, non sovereign control over, you know, execution layers and settlement, like, all that kind of stuff.

我就想，天哪，这可是个大想法。

I'm like, man, this is a big idea.

AI也一样大，甚至可能更大。

AI is is just as big, if not if not bigger.

所以，现在这里面有很多，就像你说的，蓝海领域。

And so, there's a lot of lot of really, you know, like you said, Greenfields, in this right now.

所以超级兴奋。

So super excited.

布伦南，趁我们还有时间，你还有什么最后的问题要问林肯吗？

Brennan, any any any last questions, for Lincoln while while we still have some time here?

天哪，我觉得我们大部分都问到了。

Man, I think we hit on most of them.

我觉得，如果要说有什么收获的话，那就是我对这一切将如何影响我们未来的发展有了更清晰的理解。

I I think if anything, I'm walking out of this with a much better understanding about how all of this is going to affect us moving forward.

显然，加密货币是其中的重要部分。

Obviously, crypto is a big part of it.

看起来加密货币才是真正的基础设施。

It seems like crypto is the real big infrastructure on it.

而且，从我今天听到的内容来看，Coinbase的策略似乎是，AI公司以及整个行业都会在这些竞争模型上投入数十亿美元，而Coinbase在说，嘿。

And, you know, from what I'm taking away here, it seems like Coinbase's play is that AI companies are going to be spending, and companies in general, are gonna be spending billions on all these competing models and everything, and Coinbase is saying, hey.

让我们来构建金融系统。

Let's build the financial system.

咱们把重点放在基础设施上。

Let's focus on infrastructure.

这就是所有那些获胜模型都能运行的基础。

And that's what all of these kind of winning models can run on.

林肯，是这样吗？

So is that right, Lincoln?

对。

Yeah.

对，完全正确。

Yeah, exactly.

我们觉得AIFI，也就是AI金融，涵盖了代理交易和代理支付。

Like, we think AIFi or AI finance covers agentic trading and agentic payments.

这是我们在整体AI和代理构建中必然会看到的一部分。

And this is an inevitable part of the overall AI and and agent build out that we're seeing.

Coinbase的目标就是成为代理经济的支柱，无论是通过Coinbase Advisor提供建议，让人们通过Coinbase for agents把他们的Coinbase账户接入他们的代理，还是直接用X402和Coinbase for business进行支付。

And Coinbase's goal here is to be the backbone of the agentic economy, whether that's through providing advice through Coinbase Advisor, letting people plug in their Coinbase account into their agent through Coinbase for agents, or even just paying with X402 and Coinbase for business.

我其实确实有一个相关的问题想问你。

So I I do actually maybe have a related question to that.

所以如果大家想接触我们刚才聊到的这个想法、这个玩法，还有这些东西，比如说我们聊的很多东西都成功了，包括X402，还有那些不同的产品。

So if people wanna maybe get exposure to this idea and this play and this stuff that we talked about, You know, let's say that a lot of the stuff that we talked about takes off, including X402 and, you know, the different products.

那这些东西会不会最终回流到Coinbase？

Is that something that would go back maybe towards Coinbase?

我记得你说过X402现在已经从Coinbase独立出来了。

I think you said that X402 is now separate from Coinbase.

是这样吗？

Is that right?

所以，假如这一切都成功了，而且规模很大，你们成了大家都在用的这种基础设施，那你会不会在Coinbase的财报或者季度报告上看到这些，还是说现在已经

So, like, say this all succeeds and it's massive and, you know, you guys are this form of of infrastructure that everyone's using, is that something that you would see on, like, an earnings call or, like, a quarterly report from Coinbase, or is that now

分开了？

separate?

嗯，X402本身作为一个标准，严格来说是独立的。

Well, so X402 itself as a standard is technically separate.

不过，Coinbase 确实拥有很多让这些支付真正大规模落地所需的基础设施。

However, Coinbase has a lot of the pieces of infrastructure required to make these payments actually happen at scale.

它们运行在 USDC 和 Base 上。

So they're running on USDC, on Base.

它们用的是 Coinbase 的钱包，或者说平台上那些零售 USDC 资金，都在这里面流动。

They're using Coinbase's wallets or the the the, you know, on platform retail USDC dollars that are flowing through all of this.

所以 Coinbase 对 X402 的思路是，先创建一个开放标准，通过这个标准创造尽可能多的价值，然后专注于从中分得一小部分。

So Coinbase is the the the path here with X402 is to create an open standard, and through that, create as much value as possible and then focus on capturing a little bit of that.

比如看看谷歌对安卓的做法，谷歌收购了安卓操作系统，然后采取了和苹果对 iOS 完全相反的策略，把它开放给所有设备，从汽车到 Kindle 到谷歌手机。

Like, if you look at what Google did with Android, Google acquired the Android operating system and took the opposite approach to what Apple did with with iOS and made it available for everything, from cars to Kindles to to Google phones.

这种策略最终让安卓占据了全球 80% 的操作系统份额，这就是我们

And and that approach now resulted in Android being in 80% of operating systems worldwide, and that's what we

希望 X402 能达到的。

want X402 to be.

哇。

Wow.

太棒了。

Incredible.

太喜欢了，兄弟。

Love it, man.

林肯，你能在一两个季度后再来我们节目吗？

Lincoln, can we have you back on again in a quarter or two?

我知道Coinbase那边进展肯定很快，平台也会不断进化。

I'm sure things are things are going at a rapid clip, over there at Coinbase, and I know that, the platform's gonna keep evolving.

所以，非常感谢你抽出时间。

So, we really appreciate your time.

我们再次欢迎你回来，也希望在家观看的观众，或者正在上班、上学路上听节目的朋友们。

We again, we welcome you back, and I hope everybody at home who was watching or, you know, you're on your way to work, you're on your way to school, whatever, you're listening.

继续关注我们。

Keep following along.

下周再来。

Come back next week.

我们还会请来更多了不起的嘉宾，同样的时间，同样的地点。

We're gonna have some more incredible guests for you same time, same place.

林肯，希望你能享受这个可能刚开始的新牛市。

Lincoln, enjoy the the beginnings of hopefully a new bull market.

我们很快会再联系你，再次感谢你抽出时间。

We'll check-in with you soon, and, thanks again for your time.

是的。

Yeah.

当然。

Absolutely.

谢谢大家。

Thanks, guys.

这太棒了。

This is great.