弄清楚如何看待《爱你的，梅根》

我认为世界上没有人知道梅根·马克尔吃过Jack in the Box。

I don't think anyone in the world knows that Meghan Markle has eaten Jack in the Box

而且还很喜欢。

and loves it.

有趣的是你一直说梅根·马克尔。你知道我现在是苏塞克斯了。你有孩子，你会说，不。我和我的孩子们共享这个名字。是的。

Funny too that you keep saying Meghan Markle. You know I'm Sussex now. You have kids, and you go, no. I share my name with my children. Yes.

这让我感觉如此——我不知道它对我会有多重要，但它意义重大，可以说，这是我们的家族姓氏，我们小家庭的姓氏。

And that feels so I I didn't know how meaningful it would be to me, but it it just means so much to go, this is our family name, our little family name.

好吧，现在我知道了，而且我很喜欢。

Well, now I know, and I love it.

这里是文化研究播客，我是安妮·海伦·彼得森。

This is the Culture Study Podcast, and I'm Anne Helen Petersen.

我是莉拉·拉普托波利斯。我是《金融时报》的文化记者，也是《Feet Globetrotter》的美国编辑。我们出版世界各地的城市文化指南，我特别关注文化记忆如何通过品味和食物传承下来。

And I'm Lila Raptopolis. I'm a culture journalist at The Financial Times. I'm The US editor of Feet Globetrotter. We publish cultural guides to cities around the world, and I have a special interest in how cultural memory gets passed down through taste and through food.

我们还要提到，您曾是我们最受欢迎的一期节目的联合主持人，如果大家还没听过的话。那期节目全是关于食谱的，讨论了食谱过多的问题，以及食谱传承的重要性。这是一个非常广泛的话题，但我们却收到了很多精彩的问题，观众们也非常喜欢这一期。这也是我们想请您回来的部分原因。此外，您最近在Instagram上发了很多关于观看的内容。

We should also note that you were our cohost on one of our most popular episodes if people haven't listened to it yet. It's all about recipes, the problem of too many recipes, but also passing down recipes. It's such like a broad, expansive topic that we somehow managed to, like, get really fantastic questions about, and people just love this episode. So that's part of the reason we wanted you to come back. Also, you had been posting a lot on your Instagram about watching

爱你的，梅根。是的。

With love, Megan. Yes.

所以我们今天要聊的是这部剧。它是一部烹饪节目兼手工艺节目兼理想生活方式节目，同时我们也想了解那位嫁入王室的女性。我们决定做这期节目是因为您在Instagram故事里发了相关内容，而且您还收到了大量其他也在观看这部剧的人的回复。

So we're talking about the show today. It's a cooking show slash crafting show slash aspirational lifestyle slash we want to know something about the woman who is married into the royal family. And we decided to do the show because you were posting about it in your Instagram stories, but also you were getting a ton of responses from other people who were also watching it.

是的。

Yes.

您从其他人那里听到了哪些看法？

And what were the takes that you were hearing from other people?

好问题。首先，我非常高兴能回来讨论这个话题。我对此有很多想法。你知道当你对某件事有太多想法时，你会想一下子全部说出来，同时又有点想躺下？就像，你就是无法

Great question. First of all, I'm so thrilled to be back to be talking about this. I have so many thoughts about it. And you know when you're so when you have so many thoughts about it that you wanna, like, say them all at the same time and you also kind of wanna lie down? Like, you just can't

表达清楚

get it

完全是这样。是的，我甚至觉得自己还没完全搞明白。但我开始在Instagram快拍上发帖问‘你们在看这个吗？’，然后收到了很多回复。

all out. Yes. I don't even feel fully like I have it figured out yet. But yes, I started posting like, are you watching this? On my Instagram stories, and I started getting a lot of responses.

说实话，很多回复都是针对她个人的。她身上有些东西真的让人很不舒服。她显得不够真诚，很假，感觉不够深刻。

And a lot of them were they were, like, personal, to be honest, about her. Something about her was really bothering people. Something about she seemed disingenuous. She seemed fake. It didn't seem deep enough.

就像，确实有点问题。我也一直有这种感觉，但完全说女人的坏话总让我有点不舒服。不过，背后确实有些原因。

Like, there's something there. And that, like, always I felt it too, but it always rubs me a little the wrong way to Totally. Be talking Right. Ish about women. Although, there's something behind it.

尤其是像梅根这样的人，我认为我们必须承认这一点：对她的批评很大程度上因地区而异。没错，关于她的讨论在美国、加拿大和英国都非常不同。

And especially someone like Megan who I think, like and it's very important for us to acknowledge this, like, so much of the criticism of her, which discourse around her really varies according to location. Right. Like, the I think a lot of people might not know that the conversation about her, like, is very different in The US than it is in Canada than it is Yeah.

在英国尤其如此，那里的氛围非常恶劣。

In The UK. Definitely in The UK, it's very toxic.

是的，而且绝对充斥着种族主义。完全正确。还包括关于英国性之类的各种观念，对吧？

Yeah. And it is absolutely shot through with racism. Totally. And also, like, ideas about Britishness and all sorts of other things. Right?

是的。

Yes.

所以我们并非假装那不存在，我们会反复回到这个想法。但我觉得，有时如果有人开始谈论她，却没有从一开始就承认这是她形象中非常重要的一部分，而这一点常常被忽视，当人们只是说，嗯，我不喜欢她。我知道。这到底是怎么回事？

And so we are not pretending like that does not exist, and we're gonna return to that thought over and over again. But I think sometimes if someone starts to have a conversation about her and doesn't acknowledge from the top that this is like a really important part of her image that often gets ignored when people just are like, well, I don't like her. I know. Like, what is that about?

对吧？对。对。正如你所说，她经历了很多，而且往往非常不公平。在英国，英国小报就散布关于她和她丈夫的种族主义、误导性报道。

Right? Right. Right. As you're saying, like, she's been through it often very unfairly. In The UK, she had, like, the British tabloids just spreading racist, misleading stories about her and her husband.

而且，你说得对，在英国，即使现在关于此事的讨论仍然充满了太多其他东西，而在美国，这更像是一种新奇事物，感觉在这里更轻松。关于她的讨论在这里感觉更轻松。

And also, like, you're right that in The UK, even the the discourse about it still, it's so, like, pregnant with so many other things that in The US, it's just sort of like a novelty that it just feels lighter here. The conversation about feels lighter here.

不。而且，你不能将关于她的讨论与关于凯特王妃的讨论分离开来，对吧？就像，人们使用这种非常鲜明的对比，比如，好吧，什么样的皇室成员，他们是如何顺从皇室规则和表现标准的？似乎其中一位能够更轻松地适应。

No. And like, you cannot disarticulate a conversation about her from conversations about princess Kate. Right? Like, there is this like very severe contrast that people use about, like, okay, what kind of royal, like, how have they cowed to the the rules and the the performance standards of the royalty? Like, one seems to have been able to conform with much more ease.

我想知道这是为什么。对。而且，当我们谈论梅根为什么要做这个节目时，对吧？很多时候，这总是会被包含在其中。

I wonder why that is. Right. And, like, as we talk about why Meghan is even doing this show. Right? A lot like, that's always going to be couched in.

他们与王室断绝关系，搬到美国，不再像皇室成员那样行事。

They sever ties with the royal family and move to The United States and are no longer, like, performing as royals.

是的。

Yeah.

那是为什么呢？因为王室对他们简直糟糕透顶，没完没了地差劲。对吧？没错吧？是的。

And why is that? Because the royal family was, like, endlessly shitty to them. Right. Right? Right.

所以这一点是存在的。这一点确实存在。

So that is there. That is there.

另外，还有一点我认为存在的是——其实我很好奇你的看法，因为你上过我以前主持的那个类似深夜播客的节目，当时我们聊过凯蒂·佩里——就是这种想法，你看，我们都是公开工作的女性。我现在就在你的播客上。说实话，我并不喜欢从讨厌那些试图在公众面前做自己的女性中获得巨大乐趣。在公众面前做自己很难。是的。

Also, another thing that I think is there, which actually I'm curious for your thoughts on because you were on my sort of late podcast, a podcast I used to host when we talked about Katy Perry, is just this idea that, like, you know, we're both women that do our work publicly. I'm currently on your podcast. Like, I don't love to take great pleasure in, like, disliking women who are trying to be themselves in public. It's hard to be yourself in public. Yeah.

而且她们本不必这样做。她们这样做也是为了所有喜欢她们的人。但话说回来，就像我们讨论凯蒂·佩里和她那种特定的烦人风格时，你有点像是说，嗯，她是名人。在某种程度上，我们是有权批评她的。是的。

And they don't need to be doing it. And they're also doing it for all the people who are enjoying them. But that said, like, when we were talking about Katy Perry and, like, her sort of specific brand of annoying, you were sort of like, well, she's a celebrity. Like, we are allowed to critique her in some ways. Yeah.

没错。而且她是把自己展示出来供公众消费的，名人不能设定规则，比如你只能对我说好话。对吧？对不对？我想随着对话的展开我们会看到，我们要讨论的这个剧集的很多内容都是关于其风格上的选择。

No. And she is she's putting herself out there for public consumption, and celebrities don't get to set their rules about, like, you are only allowed to say nice things about me. Right. Right? And I think as we'll see as this conversation unrolls, a lot of what we're gonna talk about about this show is about the style decisions of the show.

嗯。其实我觉得梅根挺讨人喜欢的。

Mhmm. I actually find Megan quite likable.

是啊。

Yeah.

比如，你能感受到她内心有一种温暖。嗯。但这个节目怎么会把这一点扭曲得如此严重？这就是为什么我只想和那些不只是——我们不只是要谈论梅根·马克尔的明星形象的人一起做这个节目。我们要讨论的是，作为一个烹饪节目，这到底是怎么回事。

Like, you can tell that there is a warmth at the heart of her. Mhmm. And how has this show managed to buckle that so severely? Like and that's part of why I I only wanted to do the show with someone who is not just we weren't just gonna talk about, like, what is the celebrity image of Meghan Markle? And we were going to talk about what is going on with this as a cooking show.

是的，是的。我收到的大部分回应，简单总结一下，是一种混合的情绪：我不想讨厌她，但我真的很挣扎。

Yes. Yes. The majority of the responses that I was getting, just to kinda finish that point, is was a mix of, I don't wanna dislike her, but I'm really struggling.

是的。

Yes.

我不知道自己对此是什么感觉，但这让我快疯了。我不知道为什么他们要这么为难她。那个意大利面的食谱其实没那么糟。就像是各种情绪的混合。我讨厌这样，但我还是看完了整个节目。

And I don't know how I feel about this, but it's driving me nuts. And I don't know why they're giving her such a hard time. That pasta recipe is really not that bad. Like, it was sort of a mix of those things. And I hate it, but I watch the whole thing.

你懂吗？很多这样的反馈。

You know? A lot of that.

好的。让我们进入问题环节。第一个问题将涉及种族、财富、性别等各方面的表现。它来自Yael，Melody将会

Okay. Let's get into the questions. This first one is going to get into the performance of race, wealth, gender, everything. It comes from Yael, and Melody is going

来读它。我太兴奋了，期待你们讨论《与爱同行，梅根》。我对这个节目有很多想法和问题。第一，她显然喜欢手工、家居、烹饪等等。但对我来说，氛围不太对劲。

to read it. I'm so excited for you to talk about with love, Megan. I have so many thoughts and questions about the show. Number one, she obviously enjoys crafting, homemaking, cooking, etcetera. But to me, the vibe is off.

她的肢体语言看起来相当紧张，向内收缩，并且略显不适。她似乎也无法进行友好的玩笑或真正的对话，无法在当下自如地用语言表达自己。我知道她是执行制片人，但为什么没有人介入并告诉她她需要在这些方面得到帮助？这种事甚至能做吗？第二，这是一个生活类节目，而普通观众在时间和金钱等资源上远远无法实现梅根所宣扬的那些东西。

Her body language seems quite tense, turned inward, and slightly uncomfortable. She also seems unable to have friendly banter or a real conversation where she has to express herself verbally in the moment comfortably. I know she's the executive producer, but why didn't anyone step in and tell her that she needed help in these areas? Is that even something that could be done? Number two, this is a lifestyle show where the average viewer is miles away from having the resources like time and money to achieve what Megan is espousing.

而且这个节目因为不接地气而受到了很多批评，无论是在内容上（比如有时间去做气球拱门），还是在场景上（她那些设计师米色服装，蒙特西托的庄园）。另一方面，一个人认为不接地气的东西，另一个人可能称之为有抱负的，甚至是积极的逃避现实，就像为了乐趣而观看一种幻想式的生活方式。对于这种类型，究竟是什么特别的因素拯救了一个不接地气的生活节目，让它反而显得有抱负或具有逃避现实感？梅根的节目本来可以做些什么来更好地传递这些感觉？

And there's been a lot of criticism of the show for being unrelatable, both in terms of content, like having the time to make a balloon arch, and the setting, her designer beige clothes, the Montecito estate. On the other hand, what one person calls unrelatable, another calls aspirational, or even positive escapism, like watching a fantasy lifestyle for fun. For this genre, what specifically saves an unrelatable lifestyle show and makes it feel aspirational or escapist instead? What could have made Megan's show better to get across those feelings?

我们就从问题的第一部分开始吧。首先，Yael，问题提得太棒了。非常出色。这简直涵盖了所有方面。那么问题的第一部分，你对这种氛围解读怎么看？

Let's just start with the first part of the question. First of all, Yael, incredible questions. Exception. This, like, gets to everything. So the first part of the question, what did you make of this reading of the vibes?

是的。你知道，氛围肯定不对劲，而且对此的反应是如此强烈，以至于感觉这并非主观看法。不像，哦，有些人觉得她有点不对劲。而是真的感觉在这个节目中，她在镜头前表现得有点糟糕。感觉没人帮助她。

Yeah. You know, the vibes are definitely off, and the response to that feels so overwhelming that it doesn't feel subjective. Like, it doesn't feel like, oh, some people feel that, like, she's a little off. Like, it really does feel like somehow in this show, she's being kind of bad on tape. It feels like no one helped her.

感觉剪辑让她听起来几乎像个AI角色。是的。感觉当有机会深入时——我们可以多谈谈这个——但它就是不让她达到那里。

It feels like the editing has made her sound almost like an AI character. Yes. It feels like when there's, like, a chance for depth, and we can talk more about this, but it just, like, it doesn't let her get there.

嗯。

Mhmm.

所以这感觉不对劲。而且

And so and that feels off. And

是的。我觉得第一集实际上是最差的。确实如此。绝对是这样。我不知道Netflix是按传统方式先拍试播集再续订整季——嗯。

yeah. Think it's actually the worst in the first episode. That's true. Absolutely. I don't know if Netflix did a traditional film the pilot and then take it to series Mhmm.

就像他们在电视网会做的那样，还是他们直接预订整季然后全部制作。但这集充满了强烈的试播集氛围

Or which is like what they would have done in network television, or if they made the order and then made all of them. But it has like extreme pilot vibes

是的。

Yeah.

在尝试各种手法方面，很明显所有人都是第一次做这个。绝对是的。他们就像在说，我猜我们会让你的化妆师来当第一个嘉宾。有几个地方她直接对着镜头说话，但只是短暂瞬间，效果却让她看起来几乎像斗鸡眼。而她并不是斗鸡眼。

In terms of trying things out, trying to figure out like clearly, everyone was doing this for the first time. Absolutely. They were like, I guess we'll have your like, your your makeup artist come and be your first guest. And there are a couple places where she talks sort of directly at the camera, but it's a scance, and it has the effect of making her look almost cross eyed. And she's not cross eyed.

没错。这只是他们的拍摄方式问题。我认为这让作为观众的你会出戏。你会想，所以她是在和摄像师互动吗？比如画外偶尔出现的那个声音是什么？

Right. It's just like the way that they were filming it. And I think that that then takes you out as a viewer. You're like, what so did does she acknowledge the camera people? Like, what's that voice that sometimes off screen?

嗯。

Mhmm.

另一位执行制片人是这部剧里的角色吗？节目的规则和运作方式都没有明确建立，非常随意松散。我觉得随着剧集推进会稍微精炼一些。老实说我只看了前四集。

Is the other executive producer a character in this show? Like, the the rules of the show and how it will work are not established. They're very loosey goosey. And I think they get a little bit more refined as the series goes on. I've admittedly only watched the first four.

嗯。但我认为他们仍然，比如，他们并不完全清楚这个节目到底是什么，只知道是梅根·马克尔的节目。是的，对吧？这就像是Netflix的一个典型问题，他们把明星当作IP。

Mhmm. But they still I think, like, they don't know exactly what this show is other than it is a show with Meghan Markle. Yes. Right? And this is like a very Netflix problem where they're like, the star is the IP.

对吧？不管这个IP是，比如，我不知道，一个卡通角色还是我们有个名人。这就是我们需要的全部。

Right? Whether the IP is, like, I don't know, a cartoon character or we have a celebrity. That's all we need.

对。对。对。我想说的是，当我观看时，我就像个制作人一样思考，我看完了整个节目。大概到第三集左右，她请来了厨师罗伊·崔，我当时就想，嗯。

Right. Right. Right. I think that I mean, as I was watching, I was, like, thinking as a producer and thinking I watched the whole show. And around episode, I think, three, she has the chef Roy Choi on, and I was like Yeah.

哦，她自在多了。第一，她似乎和男性在一起时不管什么原因都更放松。是的。第二，她似乎在学习东西时更自在，而且我实际上更喜欢她学习的样子，而不是教我一些她并不一定是专家的事情。比如，那样可能是构建这个节目的更好方式，像是'和梅根一起学习'之类的。

Oh, she's way more comfortable. One, she seems more comfortable with men for whatever reason. Yeah. Two, she seems more comfortable learning something, and I actually like her more when she's learning something instead of teaching me something that it doesn't feel like she's an expert in necessarily. Like, that would be a better way to sort of frame the show is, like, learn with Megan or whatever.

她做手工时似乎更自在。我其实很喜欢很多手工的部分，那是后面才出现的。比如，她的一些朋友，我不知道。确实有点感觉，为什么你要以那位嘉宾开始？为什么，为什么要以一集每个人都很紧张、似乎都不太确定的节目开始？

She seems more comfortable crafting. I actually liked a lot of the crafting stuff, and that happens later. Like, some of her friends I don't know. It did feel a little like, why would you start with that first guest? Why like, why would you start with an episode where everybody seems nervous and no one seems quite sure?

我们还要多谈谈，比如，不在她家拍摄的情境怪异之处。但让我们谈谈第二个关于亲和力的问题。是的。因为我认为这要求很奇怪，也很诡异。

We're gonna talk a lot more too about, like, the situational weirdness in terms of not shooting at her house. But let's talk about that second question about relatability. Yes. Because I think it is such a demand and so weird.

这真的很奇怪。我很好奇你怎么想。因为当我读到那个问题，看到网上有很多短视频在讨论这些矛盾，比如她戴着一枚价值10万美元的粉红戒指，却在做气球拱门之类的东西。她是个公主。对吧。

It is really weird. I'm really curious what you think. Because as I was reading that question and as I was seeing, there's a lot of sort of reels on the Internet that are talking about these contradictions, like she's wearing a x $100,000 pinky ring while she's, you know, making a balloon arch or whatever. She's a princess. Right.

没错。而且，这种矛盾不应该困扰我们。我们整天听富人说话。格温妮丝·帕特洛不是说过吗，我就是我，我不能假装自己只赚2万5千美元。

Exactly. And, like, that contradiction shouldn't bother us. Like, we listen to rich people all day. Didn't Gwyneth Paltrow say once, like, I am who I am. I can't pretend to be making $25,000.

然后大家都说，是啊，我们不想让你只赚2万5。我的意思是，也许如今这种情况应该让我们感到困扰，毕竟我们的政府正在被电视里的反派角色之类的 dismantle。但说到底，她只是在做手工。嗯，是的。

And everyone's like, yeah. We don't want you to be making $25,000. Like, I mean, like, maybe these days, this should bother us as, like, our government's being dismantled by, like, TV villains or whatever. But, like, she's just crafting at the end of the day. And, like Yeah.

如果你真的想做一个气球拱门，在任何社会经济水平下，你都会找到时间去做一个气球拱门。

If you really wanna make a balloon arch, like, you'll find the time to make a balloon arch at any socioeconomic level.

这并不是说你每天都要做一个气球拱门。而是说，如果你想办一个孩子的派对，而且你享受制作的过程胜过孩子们在派对上的乐趣，那么这里就是制作气球拱门的方法。

This is not saying you should make a balloon arch every single day of your life. It's saying if you want to have a kid's party that, like, actually is more fun for you to create than the kids will have at the party, then here is how to make the balloon arch.

是的。

Yes.

我也应该纠正一下自己。她不是公主，她是公爵夫人。

I should also correct myself. She is not a princess. She is a duchess.

而且也许曾经是公爵夫人？

And maybe was a duchess?

确实有人这样。不，我我不知道。有些人对此类事情反应非常激烈。我就想，好吧，我又没要求你叫我彼得森博士。

There are people yeah. No. I I don't know. There are people who get so up in arms about this stuff. I'm like, well, I don't ask you to call me doctor Peterson.

我拥有博士学位。这让我想起的另一件事是，其实有非常非常迷人的关于早期电视的学术研究。我们说的是二十世纪四十年代、五十年代。很多节目是现场直播的。那是在电视节目被录制之前。

I have a PhD. The other thing that it reminds me of is there's actually really, really fascinating scholarship about early television. So we're talking nineteen forties, nineteen fifties. A lot of it was shot live. This was before television was filmed.

所以它更像是广播节目那样拍摄的。在四十年代和五十年代有一个时期，他们试图弄清楚，好吧，我们做的一些东西就只是录制的广播节目。对吧。而我们要做的一些东西，我们会尝试用一些过气的电影明星。

So it was shot more like a radio show. And there was a moment in the nineteen forties and fifties where they're trying to figure out, like, okay. So some of the stuff that we do is going to just be filmed radio shows. Right. And some of the stuff that we're gonna do, we're gonna try to use kinda washed up movie stars.

对。我做了很多研究，关注葛洛丽亚·斯旺森的早期电视节目。她在四十年代和五十年代各有一个节目。当时有一个难题，就是试图转化这种对超凡电影明星的理解。葛洛丽亚·斯旺森就像是默片好莱坞的女王。

Right. And I've done a lot of work on looking at Gloria Swanson's early television show. She had one in the nineteen forties and one in the nineteen fifties. And there was this difficulty of trying to translate this understanding of larger than life movie stars. So Gloria Swanson was like the queen of silent Hollywood.

她有一个，像是镀金的浴缸。所有那些关于她的讨论，在她二十年代粉丝巅峰时期，就像是，她是纯粹的魅力，她和你毫无相似之处。对吧？那就是观众如何将她视为电影明星的。他们除了在电影银幕上，从未见过她其他样子，而银幕上是超凡的。

She had a, like, a gold plated bath tub. Like all of that was the conversation about her during the height of her fandom in the nineteen twenties was like, she is pure glamour and she has nothing like you. Right? And that was how audiences related to her as a movie star. They had never seen her in anything other than like on a movie screen, which was larger than life.

对。看起来精致无比。对吧？然后她出现在一个破旧的电视屏幕上。你如何尝试让自己，如何为电视去魅力化？

Right. Looking just exquisite. Right? And then here she is on like a crappy TV screen. How do you try to like make yourself like how to deglamorize yourself for television?

是的。这很有趣。同时还要保持那种明星吸引力。这在随后的年份里变得非常混乱，尤其是现在，自从流媒体时代以来。但直到九十年代，确实有这种区分，比如，这是电视明星，对吧。

Yeah. That's interesting. While also holding on to that star appeal. This is really muddled in the years since, especially now that this like since the the streaming era. But they're up until like the nineteen nineties, there really was this delineation between like, this is a star for television Right.

而这颗星是为电影而生的。偶尔有人能超越这个界限，比如乔治·克鲁尼。但即便是詹妮弗·安妮斯顿，在我看来，她依然代表着电视明星的形象。

And this is a star for movies. And sometimes someone would transcend that like George Clooney. But even like Jennifer Aniston, to me, she still signifies television star.

有意思。确实。对了，之前我们看玛丽亚·卡拉斯那部电影时，安吉丽娜·朱莉一出场，我就觉得——这才是电影巨星。或许她是我们的最后一位电影明星了。她就是那种能瞬间占据你脑海的存在。

Interesting. Yes. Well, meanwhile, when we saw I saw the Maria Callas movie, and Angelina Jolie came on stage, and I was like, that's a movie star. Maybe she's our last movie star. She just is in your head like that.

没错，没错。而且我认为梅根百分之百是个电视明星。

Right. Right. And I think that Megan is 100% a TV star.

是啊。

Yeah.

对吧？你看，她演了《金装律师》，那可是最典型的电视剧——非常经典的电视节目。拍了无数季，极其公式化。很多人重新回看这部剧部分是因为她，但她甚至都不是主角。

Right? Like, she's on Suits, which is the most TV of t like, a very classic TV TV show. A billion episodes. Incredibly formulaic. Something that a lot of people have returned to in part because of her, but, like, she's not even the main character.

她是个电视剧女配角

She is a supporting TV actress

嗯。

Yeah.

并且拥有与之相称的魅力，符合那个角色。但现在她是王室成员。尽管她不再履行王室职责，但她依然保持着那种魅力，并且被贴上了名人的标签。

And has the glamour that is appropriate to that and to that role. But now she's a royal. Even though she's not like, no longer has royal duties, like, still has that glamour and that celebrities' affixed to her.

嗯。

Mhmm.

所以她很难调和这两者。

And so it's very difficult for her to reconcile those two.

是的。而且看着这个过程让人很不舒服。同时，你会看到她回顾自己人生的不同阶段，她的阶级地位在她一生中已经变化了几次。她从工人阶级长大，进入了那种上层阶级但属于电视明星的层次，然后成为了王室成员。

Yes. And it's very uncomfortable to kind of watch it. And also, you kind of watch, like, she's referring back to different stages of her life, and she's her class status has sort of changed a few times in her life. She's gone from, like, she grew up working class. She went to this sort of upper class, but TV star sort of level, and then she became royalty.

但是当她回顾童年或者提到某些事情时，总感觉有些脱节。是的，关于这一点。

And but when she refers back to her childhood or when she refers back to suit, something feels disjointed Yes. About it as

是在第三集里她谈到自己有多么洛杉矶吗？比如，我是个洛杉矶孩子。是的。那是她的一部分，也是她自我认知的一部分。但然后你对比前一集，当敏迪·K...

it Is it the third episode where she's talking about, like, how LA she is? Like, I'm an LA kid. Yeah. And that is that's part of her and part of how she, I think, conceives of herself. But then you, like, contrast that with the episode before when Mindy K.

看起来像是问，你的衣服是哪里买的？对吧。这对我来说太有趣了。我在想，她的衣服，即使是一些中等价位的单品，也都是富人的衣服。对吧。

Looks like, where are your clothes from? Right. Which is so interesting to me. I'm like, her clothes are like, you know, even if there are moderate pieces, like, they're all rich people clothes. Right.

而她有那种，作为编辑你会想，哦，我们希望她这么说，因为她会说‘我风格高低混搭’。比如她的裤子来自Zara，但毛衣却是Jenny Kane的。我觉得很多人会惊呼‘天啊，谁买得起啊？’我就想，王室成员当然买得起

And she had, like, why as an editor, you're like, oh, we want her to say because she says, I'm very high low. And she's like, my pants are from Zara, but then her sweater is from Jenny Kane. And I think a lot of people are like, oh my gosh, who can afford that? I'm like, a royal can

买得起。

afford that.

但我确实认为，要求她显得亲民的这种期待，其实源于她最初作为电视明星的形象平衡。

But I do think that this demand that she'd be relatable really stems from that that original balance of her image, which is as a television star.

这真的很有趣。是的。所以没错。

That's really interesting. Yes. So Yeah.

这样说得通吗？

Does that make sense?

是的。完全说得通。当你看的时候，就觉得...确实。感觉她没有一个落脚点让人觉得特别自在。是的。

Yeah. That makes total sense. And when you're watching, you just yeah. It feels like there's nowhere where she lands that feels quite comfortable. Yeah.

而且这是个尚未解决的难题。

And that it's a hard problem that was not solved.

我还想谈谈你提到的，就是她有时候听起来像AI。你在上一集的最后挑了一段片段。

I also wanna talk about what you mentioned, which is that sometimes she sounds like an AI. You picked out a clip at the very end of the last episode.

哦，是的。

Oh, yeah.

来演示一下这部分。我们播放那段录音，然后讨论一下。好的。很棒。就是待在家里，与朋友联系，结交新朋友。

Demonstrate some of this. Let's roll that tape and then talk about it. Alright. Great. Just being home and connecting with friends, making new friends.

我们做到了。

We did it.

哦。谢谢你。我对此非常感激。但也是重新连接自我，不断学习。对吧？

Oh. Thank you. I'm just so grateful for that. But also reconnecting with myself and just learning. Right?

就像，我一直很好奇。与我所爱的人分享所有这些发现和我热爱的一切，这给我带来了如此多的快乐。去爱。

Like, I've always been curious. Sharing all of those discoveries and everything I love with the people that I love, it just brings me so much joy. To love.

去爱。

To love.

没有比这更好的收尾了。我只是在你观看时看着你的脸。

Can't end on a better note than that. I'm just watching your face while you're watching it.

我感觉我有好多话想说，却不知从何说起。但我想…好吧。

I feel like I I have so much to say, and I don't know where to start. But I want Okay.

你先开始，然后我会告诉你我看的时候的一些感受。

You start, and then I'll I'll tell you some of my feelings while I was watching it.

哦，天哪。好吧。我觉得，你知道，这节目本不该这么复杂。它就是个简单的生活类节目，像艾娜·加滕、玛莎·斯图尔特那种。有假嘉宾，还有为小型舞台晚宴做准备的假戏。

Oh, man. Okay. I guess, you know, the show shouldn't be that complicated. Like, it is a simple lifestyle show, an Ina Garten, a Martha Stewart. Like, it has the fake guests and the fake prepping for little stage dinners.

而且，这些本来都应该没问题。我感觉我们某种程度上已经习惯在这种模板中暂时放下怀疑，比如并非所有事都真的那样发生，他们也不是一直这么开心。而且，他们总是显得很完美，但这没关系。这对我们来说不是问题。我们很乐意接受这些。

And, like, that should all be fine. I feel sort of like like we're used to suspending disbelief to a degree for a template where, like, not everything really happens that way, and they're not this happy all the time. And, like, they always seem perfect, but it's fine. And, like, that's not a problem for us. We're, like, comfortable swallowing that.

但这次，有些东西感觉痛苦且严重缺失，很容易说是灵魂或谦逊之类的。但不止如此。它确实有点…有种像是AI生成的感觉，部分是因为有这么多，我不知道，你知道，她会说些像‘天哪，我喜欢听事物背后有意义的故事’这样的话。然后你就会想，但这到底是什么意思？或者像是‘这只是关于快乐’。

But with this, something feels, like, painful and profoundly missing, and it's easy to say it's like soul or humility or something. But that's not all it is. And it does just kind of there's something that feels sort of AI generated about it, partially because there's just like all these sort of, I don't know, you know, I I she'll say things like, my god, I love hearing the meaningful stories behind things. And you're like, but what does that mean? Or like, you know, it's just about joy.

然后你就会想，但这到底是什么意思？这些都是真实的陈述，但就是没有…也许就是没有张力。我不知道。没有什么东西与之对抗。感觉诡异得空洞。

And you're like, but what does that mean? And these are all true statements, but there's just no I maybe there's just no tension. I don't know. There's nothing that it's rubbing up against. It feels bizarrely empty.

我也可以告诉你，作为一个音频编辑，那个小片段来自大约10个不同的“是的”。

I can also tell you, like, as an audio editor that that little clip is from, like, 10 different Yes.

是的。不。我只是评论一些声音片段。我在节目本身中评论过，不是在那部分，而是在第一集的其他部分，特别是Foley音效，那时候你基本上需要进去做补录。就像，你必须加入评论。

Yes. No. And I I remark just sound bites. I remarked during the show itself, not during that part, but other parts during that first episode specifically that the Foley and that's when you, like, have to go in and do, like, pickups essentially. Like, you have to add in commentary.

一旦你注意到Foley音效在音频中的位置，还有大多数时候如果有人添加Foley音效，通常没有说话人的图像。

And once you notice where Foley's are both in the audio, but then also the fact that, like, most of the time if someone's adding in a Foley, there's no image of the person talking.

对。他们没有面对镜头或者有B卷素材。

Right. They're not facing camera or there's a b roll.

到处都是。

It's all over the place.

无处不在。

It's everywhere.

我认为尤其是第一集，那就像是高层的指示。对吧？嗯。就像是，我们需要知道这是关于什么的。我觉得最后那个场景，我们刚刚听到的发生在一集的结尾，他们一起做了这个食物，然后他们走出去到一个看起来也像AI生成的远景。

And I think especially for the first episode, that was like notes from on top. Right? Mhmm. Being like, we need to know what this is about. And I think like that last scene, what we just heard happens at the end of an episode where they've, like, made this food together, and then they go out into this vista that also looks like AI.

是的。她就像是在说，这不是

Yeah. That's She's like, it's not

绿幕，但它看起来像是，而且某种程度上，他们是在暗示这不是绿幕。我觉得他们这么说的一个原因，无论是潜意识还是有意识地，嗯，是因为Netflix已经因为使用绿幕拍摄而声名狼藉了

a green screen, but it looks and and part of, like, they're evoking it's not a green screen. And one of the reasons they're saying that, I feel like subconsciously or consciously Mhmm. Is because Netflix has become notorious for shooting with green screens

是的。

Yeah.

是的。而不是实地取景。

Yeah. Instead of location.

是的。实际上那句话出现在整部剧的结尾。它不算剧透，因为它没透露什么内容，但它出现在整部剧的结尾，然后回溯到第一集末尾的一些部分，她在那里说这不是绿幕。所以确实感觉像是已经发生过了，听起来就像你真的看过一样，但实际上，那是在第八集。但这又是一个例子，就像是你可能看了一集就觉得你看过它，因为一切都感觉差不多。

Yeah. That actually that quote comes at the end of the entire show. It's like not a spoiler because it doesn't say anything, but it comes at the end of the entire show and then refers back to some of the parts right at the end of that first episode where she says it's not a green screen. So it does feel like it's already happened, and it sounds like it feels like you'd actually seen it when, really, it was at the on episode eight. But it's like that's another example of just sort of like, you could watch an episode and feel that you had watched it because it all feels sort of the same.

等等。所以它不是在第一集结尾？你是这个意思吗？

Wait. So it's not at the end of episode one? Is that what you're

不是。那句话是最后一集的结尾部分。

No. That quote is from the end of the last episode.

哦，不。我觉得她

Oh, no. I think she

在第一集结尾也说了。这是在绿幕前拍的。

says it at the end of episode one too. This is in a green screen.

是啊。那她就已经说了两次了。

Yeah. Then she's then she's done it twice.

然后我觉得他们好像为爱干杯。我当时就想，你们为什么要为这个干杯？他们根本没讨论过爱情啊。然后我才反应过来，哦，这是节目名字。

And I think that it and then they like cheers to love. And I was like, why are you cheering to like, are you cheersing to that? Like, they they didn't talk about love at all. And then I was like, oh, it's the name of the show.

对。

Yeah.

如果我是论文编辑，这是一篇论文的话，我会说这篇论文线索太多了。比如，让我们

If I were an essay editor and this was an essay, I'd be like, there are too many strands in this essay. Like, let's

是的。

Yes.

让我们回到开头，弄清楚这个节目到底讲什么。这也让我想到亨特·哈里斯和艾莉·琼斯在关于这个节目的讨论中提出的观点（我们会在节目说明中附上链接），那就是我们必须把这个节目定位为梅根和哈里与Netflix及Spotify签署的大制作协议中为数不多的成果之一。这是几年前的事了，但一直没什么动静。而且这个节目也像是在他们推出果酱公司后的一次品牌重塑——那家公司后来不得不改名，因为他们没检查版权是否已被占用。整个过程处理得一团糟，非常令人费解。

Let's go back to the beginning and and figure out what this show is about. And I think that that also makes me think about something that Hunter Harris and Allie Jones brought up in their back and forth about the show, which we'll link to in the show notes, which is that we have to, like, position this as one of the very few things that have come out of blockbuster production deals that Meghan and Harry signed with Netflix and with Spotify. This happened several years ago, and nothing has really emerged. And that this is also a show that is functioning as a sort of rebranding after they launched this jam company that then they had to rename because they hadn't checked to see if anyone else had the copyright already. Like, it was just fumbled in a way that is very curious.

所以对我来说，如果你知道他们长期以来一直试图构思节目概念的这个背景，那么节目中那种拼凑感就稍微说得通了。

And so to me, like, if you know that backstory that they had tried to come up with a concept for a show for a long time, then it makes sort of the Frankenstein element of it make a little bit more sense.

是的。作为编辑，你看的时候会觉得这真是一团乱麻。但这也合理，因为实际上我认为他们确实不清楚——直到拍摄完成后才真正确定节目方向。是的。

Yes. As an editor, you watch it and you're like, this is a mess. And it makes sense because actually, I don't think they really it is true clear in that they didn't really know what it was going to be until after they filmed. Yes.

没错。问题在于，当试播集本身方向不明，或是被后期剪辑硬凑成符合节目主题时，这种混乱是可以理解的。但即便如此，随着节目推进，它依然没有完全理顺。所以

No. And that's the thing is that you should never it makes sense when the pilot doesn't necessarily know what it's doing or is kind of back edited to make it make sense with what they've decided the theme of the show is. But then it also doesn't totally make sense as the show goes on either. So

是的。

Yes.

本期节目由Ollie赞助。好了，我的狗史蒂夫只在清晨喂食时间会发出一种特殊的声音。大概是这样的（虽然有点尴尬但你们准备好了吗）——

Today's episode is sponsored by Ollie. Alright. So my dog Steve does this like sound only early in the morning when it's time for food. And it goes something like this. It's gonna be embarrassing, but you're ready.

是一种起伏的哼唧声。可能听起来老套，但我们开始在他的干粮里混入Ollie湿粮后，这声音变得更响亮更持久了，因为他特别兴奋。波莉对Ollie什么反应？波莉非常——她不算挑食，

It goes it's like undulating. This is gonna sound corny, but we started giving him Ollie with his food, like mixing in the Ollie wet food with his dry food. And now the the it's like even louder and more extended because he's so excited for it. How does Polly feel about Ollie? Polly is a very she's not a picky eater,

但她很容易感到无聊。所以她会绝食抗议，但当她碗里还有狗粮时，她会因为太饿而哭泣。于是我们开始混入一点Ollie，现在她简直把碗舔得干干净净。正如你所说，我们所有的

but she gets bored really easily. So she will go on hunger strikes, but she'll cry because she's so hungry while there's kibble in her bowl. So we started mixing in a little bit of the Ollie, and now she's literally licking the bowl clean. As you've said, all of

狗狗，全都是救助来的，都忘记了它们每一个都是在

our dogs, all of whom are rescues, have forgotten that every single one of them was born in

沟里出生的。

a ditch.

它们已经忘记了自己来自哪里。

They have forgotten where they came from.

Ollie是新鲜的。它是全食饮食。就像，每个包装前面都写着不同的成分。我昨晚喂的那份，我想是火鸡和蓝莓口味的。Ollie提供五种令人垂涎的口味，带来洁净、新鲜的营养。

Ollie is fresh. It's a whole food diet. Like, on the front of each one of them, it says the different ingredients. The one I fed last night was, I think, like, turkey and blueberries. Ollie delivers clean, fresh nutrition in five drool worthy flavors.

你不需要成为兽医营养师也能知道，真正经过最少加工的食物是狗狗健康的最佳选择。它在美国厨房制作，采用高质量人用级原料，不含填充物，不含防腐剂，只是真正的食物。你可以通过狗狗的粪便大小来判断。你知道吗？里面有多少填充物？

And you don't need to be a veterinary nutritionist to know that real minimally processed food is the best choice for your dog's health. It's made in US kitchens with high quality human grade ingredients, and it contains no fillers, no preservatives, just real food. You can tell by the size of your dog's poop. You know that? How much filler there is?

是的。如果有很多填充物，就会有很多粪便。而现在粪便并没有增多。是的。可以确认吗？

Yes. If there's if there's a lot of filler, there's a lot of poop. And there has not been more poop. Yeah. Can confirm?

它是温和烹煮并新鲜配送的。用这些大大的冷冻盒运送，然后你可以从冰箱里取出来，一天内就能解冻。打开时没有奇怪的气味，也没有任何人工延长保质期的添加剂。真的很不错。

It is gently cooked and delivered fresh. It's delivered in these, like, big frozen boxes, and then you can take it out of your freezer, and it defrosts in a day. And then when you open it, it doesn't smell weird. There's not like any weird artificial shelf life extender. Like, it's it's really nice.

所以食谱有新鲜牛肉配红薯、新鲜火鸡配蓝莓（我提过的）、新鲜羊肉配蔓越莓。你可能会想，我的狗吃得比我还好。这确实是真的。我觉得昨天我的狗确实吃得比我好。我当时有点

So there's recipes like fresh beef and sweet potatoes, fresh turkey with blueberries that I mentioned, fresh lamb with cranberries. You might think, my dog eats better than I do. This is actually true. I think yesterday, my dog did eat better than I do. I was, like, kind of

想尝一口。说实话。我没那么做，但我能想象有人会

tempted to take a taste. I'm not gonna lie. I didn't do it, but I I could see somebody

打开它。我们打开后，查理说，如果需要的话，我打赌我能吃那个。而我从来没想过狗粮的事。如果你想试试，可以去Ollie的网站做一个快速测验，它会根据你狗的体重、是否需要增重或减重、活动水平以及其他健康信息，制定一个定制化的饮食计划。然后他们计算出数据，推荐给多少份量，以及如果你想混合喂食之类的建议。

opened it up. We opened it up, and Charlie was like, if I needed to, I bet I could eat that. Which I've never thought about the kibble. If you wanna try it out, you go to Ollie's website and you do this really quick quiz, and it will create a customized meal plan that's related to, like, your dog's weight, whether they need to gain or lose weight, their activity level, all of their other health info. And then they put together the numbers, and they recommend, like, what they would give and, like, the daily portions, and if you want to mix it, all that sort of thing.

首次订购还会收到一个欢迎礼盒，里面有两周的餐食，以及如何逐步过渡到新饮食的指南。Ollie也是唯一提供无限常规健康筛查的新鲜狗粮，这样你可以让你的狗狗走上最健康、最快乐的生活道路。狗狗值得最好的，这意味着新鲜、健康的食物。前往ollie.com/culture，告诉他们你狗狗的所有信息，并使用代码culture，今天订阅即可享受欢迎礼盒六折优惠。

And then you get this welcome kit for first timers, and it's two weeks worth of meals and then a guide on how to gradually switch them over to the new diet. Ollie is also the only fresh dog food that comes with unlimited routine health screenings, so you can get your pup on track to living their healthiest, happiest life. Dogs deserve the best, and that means fresh, healthy food. Head to ollie.com/culture. Tell them all about your dog and use the code culture to get 60% off your welcome kit when you subscribe today.

此外，他们对第一个盒子提供清洁碗保证。如果你不完全满意，会退款。网址是0llie.com/culture，输入代码culture，首盒享受六折优惠。如果你想尝试，一定要这么做，因为这是支持节目的好方式，向Ollie表明你是文化研究的听众，并在这里听说了他们。好了。

Plus, they offer a clean bowl guarantee on the first box. So if you're not completely satisfied, you'll get your money back. That's 0llie.com/culture and enter code culture to get 60% off your first box. And make sure you do that if you wanna try it out because this is a great way to show that you support the show by showing Ollie that you are a culture study listener and you heard about them here. Okay.

下一个问题来自Laurie。

Next question comes from Laurie.

你认为评论家们一次性观看全部八集是否导致了对她节目的负面评价？我承认第一集并不出色，但我发现当慢慢观看、同时叠衣服或整理时，这是一部令人舒缓的节目。当前对这档节目的批评与《赛琳娜与厨师》、《麻理惠的整理秘诀》或《扎克·埃夫隆的接地气之旅》等节目相比如何？

Do you think that having critics watch all eight episodes at once contributed to all of the negative responses to her show? I admit the first episode wasn't amazing, but I find that it's a soothing show when watched slowly while folding laundry or organizing. How does the current critique of this show compared to shows like Selena and Chef, Marie Kondo, or Down to Earth with Zac Efron?

鉴于这个问题，我在做所有早晨事务时把它当作背景音播放，我就是这样看完了第四集和第五集的前半部分。它确实很舒缓。而且，你知道，这很像——我们必须记住的一点是，很多这类节目，我会把玛莎·斯图尔特的节目或瑞秋·雷的节目也算在内，很多这种生活方式类节目本意是作为日间电视，供白天在家的人半沉浸式观看的。

In light of this question, I put this on in the background while I was doing all of my morning tasks, and that's how I watched episode four in the first half of five. And it was soothing. And, you know, a lot like, that's one thing we have to remember. A lot of these shows and I would include, like, the Martha Stewart show or, like, Rachel Ray. Like, a lot of these kind of lifestyle y shows weren't intended as daytime television that people who were home during the day would watch somewhat ambiently.

对吧？就像肥皂剧也一样。有很多...对的。叙事上的重复性，这样如果你不得不离开去换洗衣服，回来时你还能跟上剧情。

Right? Like soap operas, same thing. There's a lot of Right. Narrative redundancy so that if you have to leave to go change the laundry, then you can come back and you're like, I still get it.

对吧？对。对。

Right? Right. Right.

所以我确实认为这可能是导致一些节目批评的原因。它本意不是让人在晚上9点当作一个非常引人入胜的故事来观看。嗯。是的。你怎么看？

And so I do think that that is maybe contributing to some of the critique of the show. Like, it's not meant to be watched as like, oh, here is a really enthralling narrative at 9PM. Mhmm. Yeah. What do you think?

我同意它很舒缓。我的同事丽贝卡·罗斯实际上和她12岁的儿子一起看了这个节目。他非常天真，你知道，对这个人没有任何历史评判。她说他的反应基本上是：我没看出有什么问题。她看起来很棒。

I agree that it is soothing. My colleague, Rebecca Rose, actually watched this with her 12 year old son. And he is like blissfully, you know, free of any historical judgment about this person. And she said that his reaction was basically like, I don't see what the problem is. She looks great.

她的房子看起来很棒。看着很有趣。比如，我学会了如何制作浴盐。他说这很放松。是的。

Her house looks great. It's fun to watch. Like, I learned how to make bath salts. He said it was, like, relaxing. Yeah.

我觉得确实如此。如果我没有那么纠结，没有经常感到尴尬的话，我确实常常会发现，哦，那真是个插花的好技巧。或者，我想做咸鱼。或者我会想，天哪，她为什么要说那种话？

And I think that's true. If I wasn't so worked up about if I wasn't sort of, like, cringing so often, I would I did I did find actually often I would be like, oh, that's, a really good tip for flower arranging. Or, I wanna make salt fish. Or like, I'd be like, oh god. Why did she say that?

然后我又会觉得，辣椒油，听起来挺有趣的。

And then I'd be like, chili oil. That's that sounds fun.

腌制其实很简单。你可以腌草莓。但我确实觉得奇怪，她总是说'我不知道'。好像有太多事情她都不知道。

Pickling really is easy. You can pickle a strawberry. I do think it's weird that she's like, I didn't know. Like, so there's so many things that she didn't know.

真应该知道的。或者干脆别说你不知道。

Really should've known. And Or just don't say you didn't know.

是的。这让我想起，这种模式更像早间节目，嗯。一位专业厨师上来教主持人怎么做某道菜。

Yeah. And that actually it reminds me of this is a like, the mode is more like a morning show where Mhmm. An expert chef comes on and teaches the host how to do something.

没错。但然后它又波动不定。因为有时候她会说，我知道这个，我要教你，因为我是可丽饼专家，或者，你知道，我是插花专家，或者，你知道，这就是为什么让我加一点柠檬。你会惊讶地发现它能让整道菜焕然一新。然后其他时候，也许为了显得 relatable（我觉得这是好的），承认自己不知道的事情。

Yeah. But then and but it but it fluctuates. Because sometimes she's like, I know this, and I'm going to teach it to you because I am a crepe expert or, like, you know, I am a flour arranging expert or, like, you know, this is why let me just add a little bit of lemon. You'd be shocked to know that it just brightens the whole dish. You know, and then other times, in an effort maybe to be relatable, which I think is good, admit when you don't know things.

比如，说'是的，其实我从来没腌过...' 是很好的。但因为这与'我经常知道'并列出现，'我不知道'就显得很混乱。与此同时，赛琳娜·戈麦斯的整个节目都是关于不知道的。是的。

Like, it's great to say, like, yeah. I actually I've never pickled a But because it's juxtaposed with I do know so often I don't know. It's just confused. Meanwhile, Selena Gomez's whole show is about not knowing. Yes.

至少，这是一个清晰的前提。

Like, at least it's a clear premise.

是的。我也觉得每次她试图通过分享自己生活中的事情来拉近距离时，反而会立刻让人联想到她的名人身份。对吧？比如，她会说，哦，在我家里，我每天为家人做每一顿早餐。

Yeah. I also think that every time she brings up something from her own life in an an attempt to be relatable, that it immediately sends your mind thinking about her celebrity text. Right? So, like, she she talks about how, like, oh, in my house, like, I make everything for my family every breakfast. Right?

然后我就想，有意思。我就在脑海里想象那个画面。或者她说，我丈夫——她从不提哈里——我丈夫不管吃什么，连尝都不尝就先撒盐。我就想，哦，原来也是个盐罐子，跟我一样。

And I'm like, interesting. And I'm just like picturing it. Or she's like, my husband she never says Harry. She's like, my husband immediately puts salt on anything without even tasting it. And I'm like, a fellow salt pig just like me.

这就像唤起了那种巨大的……真的很真实。她王室家庭的那个巨大阴影。而相比之下，我不知道，当奥普拉提到斯特德曼时，你会觉得，哦，斯特德曼啊。他几乎就像……像个道具。

And it just like evokes that that big, like It's really true. The very large shadow of her her royal family. Whereas, like, I don't know. When Oprah talks about Stedman, you're like, oh, Stedman. Like, he's just almost like it's like a it's like a prop.

对吧？或者，比如玛莎提到她丈夫时，也像个道具。

Right? Or, like, when Martha talked about her husband, like, it's a prop.

对，没错。这个问题也让我回去看了一些赛琳娜·戈麦斯的节目。我还回顾了对这两档节目的部分批评性评论，它们大多被形容为——我记得《纽约杂志》说它们‘完全随机’。

Right. Yes. I also this question made me go back and watch some of, Selena Gomez's show. And, I looked back at some of the critical reviews of both of those shows. And, they were both mostly just called, like I think, New York Magazine called them utterly random.

批评回应中有一种能量，就像是：他们有名，随他们去吧。有什么大不了的？

There was just, like, an energy to the critical response that was just like, they're famous. Let them. What's the big deal?

是的。

Yeah.

然而，就像这部剧的评论反响一样，风险很高。每个人都痴迷并想了解这个女人。所以在这方面是不同的。但这确实让我想知道，实际上我很好奇你的看法。为什么我们还想继续看她和这部剧？

Whereas like the critical reception to this is like, the stakes are high. Everybody's obsessed and wants to know about this woman. And so it's that different in that way. But it did make me wonder, like, actually and I'm curious what you think. Like, why do we wanna keep watching her and this show?

比如，为什么这部剧即使人们不喜欢她或其他原因仍然如此受欢迎？是因为她是皇室成员，故事情节 irresistible，我们像你说的那样，想象她在家的样子，这有点像糖果或某种美味的东西？还是因为她实际上非常具有观赏性，即使人们觉得她尴尬，或者仅仅是因为她真的很漂亮？到底是什么原因？

Like, why is this show still so popular even if people are don't like her or whatever? Like, is it because she's a royal and the storyline is irresistible and we're doing what you say we're, like, thinking of her in her home and there's something about that that's sort of, like, candy or tasty in some way? Is it because she's, like, actually profoundly watchable even if people find her cringey like or is it just because she's really pretty? What is it?

我认为是揭示的承诺。人们想知道更多。他们被引导相信会得到更多信息的原因是奥普拉的采访和哈里的书。是的。因为我觉得有时候人们会说，她有隐私权。

I think it's the promise of revelation. People want to know more. And the reason that they've been led to believe that they would get more is the Oprah interview and Harry's books. Yes. Because I think sometimes people are like, well, she has a right to privacy.

我会说，是的，她当然有。但她也战略性地利用揭示来建立这个品牌。对吧？是的。所以我认为对这部剧的不满部分在于，人们想要一定程度的真实披露。

And I'm like, well, yes, of course she does. But then also she has strategically used revelations as a way to establish this brand. Right? Yes. And so I think that part of the dissatisfaction with this show is that people want a certain level of authentic disclosure.

嗯。

Mhmm.

我理解她不愿提供这些信息，但先例已经设定了。这说得通吗？

And I understand her reticence to provide it, but the precedent was set. Does that make sense?

完全正确。确实如此。就像，你选择做一档电视节目。

Totally. Exactly. Like, you chose to do a television show.

嗯，如果她之前没有提供那些披露，我想人们会说，哦，她是个极其注重隐私的人对吧？不会谈论这些，在节目上只会提到我丈夫而不提哈里？嗯。但之前有过这些尝试，比如说明真相：这才是真正发生的，这才是实际情况。

Well, and if she hadn't provided those disclosures before, then I think people would be like, oh, she's an incredibly private person Right. Who's not gonna talk about this and who is going to say only my husband and not Harry on the show? Mhmm. But there have been these previous attempts to say, like, this is what really happened. This is what is really happening.

这是我们作为名人想要与王室制度互动的方式。我们想以这种方式向权力说真话。对吧？然后这档节目并没有这样做。

This is the way that we want to engage as celebrities with the institution of the royal family. We want to speak truth to power in that way. Right. And then that's not happening with this show.

完全同意。

Totally.

而且，一档烹饪节目不应该这样做。我们不应该——但话说回来，这种不公平的期望我认为是强加给她的。

And it like, a cooking show shouldn't do that. Like, we shouldn't but again, like, that's the unfair expectation that I think is is levied on her.

是的。你知道，这让我想起《Vulture》对节目有一篇相当尖锐的评论，结尾非常有趣。是凯瑟琳·冯·阿伦东克写的，她说梅根给人的简短印象就像英国王室成员一样——是的，害怕展现脆弱，痴迷于表象，并从一个她无法融入的公众那里寻求认可。真是令人沮丧。

Yes. You know, that reminds me of Vulture had a sort of scathing review of the show, and the end was really interesting. It's it's Catherine von Arendonck, and she said that Meghan comes off in short like a member of the British royal family Yes. Afraid of showing vulnerability, obsessed with appearances, and seeking affirmation from a public she cannot be part of. Nothing depressing.

是的。这是事实。因为她曾向我们承诺过相反的东西，这反而让人觉得更糟。

Yes. And that's true. Because she's promised us the opposite, that feels even worse somehow.

对。这样我感觉好多了。我全程都有这种感觉。我就想，哦，这有点，这非常英式。你知道，比如给你的孩子们安排下午茶时间，你知道，就像是有

Right. That's I feel better. I felt that throughout. I'm like, oh, this is some like, this is very, like, British. You know, like, having a tea time for your kids, you know, like, there are

这些对。完全同意。

these Right. Totally.

有点意思的联系，这些联系，像是追溯到皇室。我在想这是不是，比如，执行制片人们在想，如果我们让梅根·马克尔的孩子和你的孩子一起喝下午茶会怎样？就像

Kind of interesting connections that are that, like, go back to royalty. I wonder if that was, like, executive producers who were like, what if we did a tea time with your kids and Mindy Kaelig's kids? Like

以一种加州的方式。对。

In a California way. Right.

好的。我认为这触及了我们讨论的一些内容，比如那八集。我确实觉得，其中一些内容因为她的名人身份而被苛刻评判，而不是基于其本身的价值。但另一些确实与节目本身有关。我们的下一个问题，我们有两个。

Okay. I think that that gets to some of what we're talking about with, like, the the eight episodes. And I I do think that, like, some of this is being judged harshly in comparison simply because of her celebrity, like, and not on its merits. But then some of it is actually about the show itself. Our next question, we have two of them.

我们把它们合并了。我们会两个都读，然后讨论。第一个来自Daisy。

We're combining them. We'll read them both, and then we will discuss. This first one is from Daisy.

我觉得梅根·苏塞克斯的品牌存在一些不协调，它试图在节目中隐秘地重新包装英式花园小屋田园生活方式，但搬到蒙特西托。然而，它并没有形成足够的对比，让人觉得有趣、新颖或令人向往。就像，脱离英国生活的感觉还不够远，不足以让人觉得新鲜或有新闻价值。讨论一下。

I feel like there's some dissonance in Megan Sussex's brand that it's trying to covertly repackage the English garden cottage homestead lifestyle, but in Montecito on the show. But it hasn't quite landed with as much contrast as it needs to feel, like, interesting or new or aspirational. Like, it's like the departure away from English life doesn't feel far enough away to be, like, new or news. Discuss.

然后下一个问题来自安妮。

And then the next one comes from Anne.

我注意到所有厨具都是新的。梅根甚至谈到磨合搅拌机，并特别说，这不是我的房子。我之所以喜欢这类家庭娱乐节目，部分原因是可以像偷窥者一样感受主持人的家，被灌输她日常例行公事包括烘焙狗饼干和准备水疗毛巾的错觉。当我被含蓄和明确地告知这只是一场表演时，我该如何与节目产生共鸣呢？

I noticed all the cookware is new. Megan even talks about breaking in the blender and specifically says, this isn't my house. Part of why I enjoy home entertainment shows like these is to feel like a voyeur in the host's home being fed the illusion that her everyday routine involves baking dog biscuits and preparing spa towels. How am I supposed to relate to the show when I'm being implicitly and explicitly told it's just for show?

所以我认为这两个问题确实都触及了节目那种混乱的基调。

So I think this really both of these questions arrive at the the sort of tone jumble of the show.

是的。

Yes.

首先，我能承认吗，我当时转向和我一起看第一集的查理，我说，蒙特西托不是在加州南部吗？他说，不是。是在湾区附近漂亮的地方。我说，他们从来没告诉我们位置。就像我们

So first of all, can I just admit that it like, I was like, I turned to Charlie who I had watched the first episode with me, and I was like, isn't Montecito in like Southern California? He's like, no. It's like in the beautiful part of like near the bay. I was like, they never locate us. Like, we

是 那太对了。

are That's so true.

那确实非常对。是的。我们所知道的只有这个绿幕，以及她能种很多浆果。是的。我只是我对加州了解不够，所以之前不知道这个。

That's really very true. Yes. And all we know is that there's this green screen, and that she's able to grow lots of berries. Yeah. I just I I don't know enough about California to, like, have known that.

他们做了很多假设，我认为这也导致了一些困难。但事实是，比如，这不是他们的家，也许我们本会这么认为，但他们却特意指出这不是他们的家，或者指出搅拌机是新的——如果他们说的是‘嘿，我们在测试厨房里，这不是很奇怪吗？’那倒还好。所以这并不好笑，只是很奇怪。

And they're assuming a lot, and I think that also leads to some of the difficulty. But the fact that, like, it's not their home and maybe we would have assumed that, but then they call out that it's not their home, or they call out that the blender is new, that it would be one thing if they're like, hey, we're in this test kitchen. Like, isn't this weird? So it's not funny. It's just odd.

是的，没错。我觉得他们只走了一半的路。是的，结果两边都没讨好。

Yes. That's right. I think they went, like, half the way. Yes. And it didn't satisfy either side.

我的感觉是，他们实际上在做一些稍微不同的事情，比如承认——你知道——我们会说这不是我的房子，我们这里有工作人员，我们在打破第四堵墙，好像我们很酷，我们很真实。

It's like my sense is that it felt like they were actually doing something a little bit different by, like, acknowledging, like, you know, we're gonna say, like, it's not my house. We have a crew here. We're breaking the fourth wall. Like, we're cool. We're real.

你明白我的意思吗？比如，我需要隐私。很多奇怪的事情刚刚发生在我身上。而且，我不想让别人待在我家里。如果她继续这样说下去，我会感到非常解脱。

You know what I mean? Like, I need privacy. A lot of weird shit just happened to me. And, like, I don't want people in my house. If she just kept talking and said that, I would feel so relieved.

比如，如果她完全放开，我会觉得她是个真实的人。我认为你说得对，在媒体采访中，她有时候听起来确实像个真实的人。是的，所以我觉得她在节目里从来没有真正达到那种状态。也许有两次，可能一次是在打麻将的时候，一次是和罗伊·崔在一起的时候。

Like, if she just went all the way, then I would feel like she was a real person. And I think you're right that, like, there are times in the press where she has sounded like a real person. Yeah. And so she just I don't think she ever really gets there on the show. Maybe like two times, maybe once she's playing Mahjong, maybe once with Roy Choi.

但实际上，她真的在克制自己达到那种状态，结果卡在中间，处境并不好。

But really, she really holds herself back from getting there, you get kinda stuck in the middle and it's and it's not in a good place to be.

所以在第二集开头，她走进来，然后说，我昨晚熬夜到很晚，或者，比如，我起得很早。因为我在想，我要为敏迪·凯莉做什么吃的呢？

So at the beginning of the second episode, she walks in and she's like, I was up so late last night or, like, I was up early. Because I was like, what am I gonna make for Mindy Kaley?

对。没错。你知道你当时在想

Right. Exactly. You know you thought

这件事。然后她就说，哦，但你在这儿呢，DP。我得给你泡咖啡。于是这就变成了，怎么说呢，我就是那个完美的女主人。

about that. And then she's like, oh, but you're here, DP. I need to make you coffee. And so it becomes this thing about, like, I'm the consummate hostess.

嗯。

Mhmm.

这还挺有意思的。对吧？就好像，她无法关闭女主人的模式。我很想听她谈谈这个，比如有时候我真的很累。

Which is kind of interesting. Right? Like, She cannot turn off hostess mode. And I would love to hear her, like, talk a little bit about that. Like, sometimes I'm exhausted.

比如，有时候很难觉得自己总得不停地制作浴盐。

Like, sometimes it's difficult to to feel like you always have to be making bath salts.

是的。对。

Yes. Yeah.

所有这些。是的。再说一遍，如果她更倾向于展现平易近人的一面，就会这样。对吧。但如果她更偏向于玛莎那种难以企及的形象，就别提你半夜醒来之类的事。

All of that. Yeah. And again, that would be if she was leaning more into the relatable. Right. But if she was leaning more into the Martha unrelatable, don't talk about how you woke up in the middle of the night.

就像，你很清楚自己在做什么。就像，你是一个自信的女主人，总是能把一切掌控得井井有条。

Like, you know exactly what you were making. Like, you are an assured hostess who always has their shit under control.

是的，完全正确。我也有这种感觉。节目中有一个巨大的矛盾点，贯穿全剧的主题是我们并不追求完美。是的。

Yes. Absolutely. I felt that way also. There's this huge conflict with there's this, like, kind of theme throughout the show that we're not in pursuit of perfection. Yes.

所以她有张完美的纸，她制作时说道，我们并不追求完美，我们只是想做出可爱的东西。但接着她用铅笔线画出完美的轮廓，确保从不越线。我们看着整个过程，心里想，你就是在追求完美。你看起来确实非常在意完美。

And so she sort of, like, has a perfect piece of paper, and she makes and she's gonna she's saying, you know, we're not in pursuit of perfection. We're just trying to make something look cute. And but then she uses pencil lines to create pet perfect lines so that she never goes outside the line. And you we're watching the whole thing, and you're thinking, like, you are in pursuit of perfection. You do seem very preoccupied with perfection.

而且在某些方面，你似乎绷得有点紧。我这么说不是批评。世界上有很多观众也是像你这样的。

And you seem pretty, like, wound tight in some ways. And I don't mean that as a as a as a criticism. Like, there are a lot of people in this world who are watching who also are the way you are.

我是说

I mean that

非常愉快。

as great pleasure.

就像，那太棒了。

Like, that's great.

观看那段内容非常愉快。是的。如果你能承认这种非常人性化的冲突，那将会变得，嗯，无限有趣。嗯。是的。

Great pleasure of watching that. Yes. And it would be, like, infinitely more interesting if you just acknowledged this, like, very human conflict. Mhmm. Yeah.

而且它并没有达到那种效果。我确实有这种感觉。我其实想问你，你知道，随着节目在某些方面陷入停滞，它开始显得过时了。对吧？它不完全是烹饪生活类节目。

And and it doesn't get there. And I do feel that. And I I actually wanted to ask you, like, you know, as the show is sort of stuck in a in a number of things, it starts to feel dated. Right? Like, it's not exactly a cooking lifestyle show.

也不完全是晨间节目。它确实有点像，就像Daisy说的，像BBC的英国乡村节目，但又不是那样。它确实有点像是励志内容创作者、Instagram短视频、Tig网红那种感觉。是的。但它也不完全是那样。

It's not exactly a morning show. It does feel a bit like, Daisy said, like a BBC English country show, but it's not that. It does feel a little like aspirational content creator, Instagram reel, Tig influencer thing. Yeah. But it's not quite that either.

然后里面还有一点传统主妇的味道。就像，是的。她确实非常具体地将主持（hosting）性别化为女主人式的（hostessing）

And then there is a little bit of trad wife in it. Like Yeah. She really does very specifically gender hosting as hostessing

是的。

Yes.

作为一个动词。是的。我觉得这非常有趣，我想

As a verb. Yeah. And I found that really interesting, and I wanted to

问一下，你知道，有一段视频片段，她纠正了敏迪·卡灵关于，嗯，现在是苏塞克斯了，这非常，嗯，已经传得到处都是了。我认为很多人把这当作第一证据，证明她和敏迪·卡灵没那么亲近。但第二证据是，嗯，存在一些困惑，也许这个词不太准确，但也许能表达我这里想说的意思，关于她希望如何与，嗯，她的王室身份建立联系。但对我来说，接下来的部分是，她接着说，对我来说，和我的孩子们拥有相同的姓氏非常重要。

ask You know, there there's this clip where she corrects Mindy Kaling about, like, it's Sussex now that's very like, it's gone all over the place. And I think a lot of people are using that as, first evidence that she's not that close with Mindy Kaling. But second evidence that like there is some confusion, maybe is not the right word, but maybe evokes what I'm trying to say here in terms of how she wants to relate to Mhmm. Her royalness. But to me, it also she then the next part of it is she's like, it's so important to me to have the same last name as my kids.

是的。让我们全家都使用这个名字。

Right. For us all to have this name as a family.

这感觉非常过时。我的意思是，这是个不错的决定，完全没问题。但这并不是一个复杂的想法，也不是什么原创的想法。

Which is feels very outdated. I mean, It's a fine decision. It's totally fine. But it's not like a complex thought. It's like not a original thought.

实际上，这其实是最传统的想法。

It's like actually the most traditional thought.

嗯哼。是的。

Uh-huh. Yeah.

是的。这很有趣。

Yeah. That's interesting.

而且我认为，这也是身为名人同时又谈论自己家庭生活的一个迷人之处。这让我想起很多讨论，比如老好莱坞时期，甚至是玛丽莲·梦露，她们如何成为出色的女主人。嗯。我认为这其中很多都试图触及一种复杂的焦虑，即她们实际上是职业女性。

And this is also, I think, one of the fascinating things about being a celebrity who is also talking about their domesticity. And this reminds me of a lot of discourse from, like, old Hollywood too or even like Marilyn Monroe about how they were such good hostesses. Mhmm. And I think a lot of it is trying to get at this complex anxiety about the fact that they're actually working women.

是的。

Yeah.

好莱坞电影明星是一位在外工作的职业女性。那么如何平息人们对一个能自己赚钱的强大女性的恐慌呢？你会强调她们多么擅长煎牛排，以及她们花了多少时间在做这整个第二份工作上

A Hollywood movie star is a working woman outside of the home. So how do you quell, like, the panic over a powerful woman who makes her own money is you emphasize, like, how good they are at making steak and how much time that they spend at doing this whole second job of

没错。

Right.

就是当好一个称职的女主人。所以你看，梅根在这里既要上电视节目工作，又是一个一直都有工作的人

Of being a good hostess. And so, like, here we have Megan doing the job of being on a television show and someone who has always had a job

嗯哼。

Mhmm.

她还在谈论自己有多少时间去做所有这些其他事情。对吧。我认为这也是节目老派的一部分。对吧？或者说这个节目的过时之处在于这种观念：女性应该有一份全职工作，同时还应该有时间为150罐果酱。

Who's also talking about how she has, like, all of this time to do all of these other things. Right. And I think that's part of the old fashionedness too. Right? Or like the the outdatedness of the show is this idea that, like, a woman should have a full time job out of the home and then also have the time to make a 150 jars of jam.

完全正确。而且，她可能——我不了解她的家务爱好，也不知道她每天花多少时间做其他工作。但这个节目传递的理念就是你应该面面俱到。

Totally. And, she has she prob I I don't know about her domestic hobby, and I don't know how much she spends of her days doing other jobs. But just the idea that is forwarded by this show is of you should do it all.

是的，完全同意。我觉得实际上，这对很多一直关注她故事的人来说可能像是一种背叛——他们最初认为她是打破许多传统的人，是作为黑人女性融入英国王室并可能使其现代化的人。一个本可能进来革新许多非常过时的传统事物的人，却推出了一档极其过时传统的节目。而且很多

Yes. Totally. And I think maybe, actually, it feels sort of like a disloyalty to a lot of people who've been following her story who, like, originally thought of her as someone who was, like, breaking a lot of traditions, who was, like, bringing, like, a black woman coming American coming into the royal family and, like, maybe modernizing it. Like, somebody who might come in and modernize a lot of very outdated traditional things then comes out with a show that's like extremely outdated and traditional in And many

就像，你知道，这种吸引力与人们关注那些田园生活账号的原因是一样的。我理解为什么这个想法很诱人。嗯哼。但我们也可以讨论为什么它会如此吸引人。关于完美主义，我最后想说的是，在第一集里有一个很棒的时刻，当时她和她的化妆师一起做蛋糕。

like, know, the attraction to it is the same as why people follow these, you know, homesteading accounts. Like, I understand why that idea is alluring. Mhmm. But we can also talk about why that is alluring. The the last thing I'll say about perfection is there's this great moment in the first episode when she's making the cake with her makeup artist.

然后他们就像，他说道，我不知道怎么涂糖霜。她就说，没关系。就这样随意一点。我们只是随便做做，对吧？

And they're like, it and he's like, I don't know how to put the frosting on. And she's like, it's fine. Like, this is sloppy. We're just doing it. Right?

就像是在表明我们并不追求完美。然后镜头切走，又切回来。就在他们切蛋糕之前，很明显他们清理了糖霜的线条。所以就像是，是的，凌乱一点完全没问题，但下一个镜头可不能这样。

Like, invoking that we're not dedicated to perfection. And then the camera cuts away, and then it comes back. And right before they cut the cake, like, it's very clear that they cleaned up the lines of the frosting. So it's like Yeah. It's totally cool to be messy, but not for this next shot.

对。完全正确。是的。绝对。在第七集后面还有一个时刻。

Right. Exactly. Yeah. Totally. There's also a moment later in episode seven.

她和她的台湾朋友Vicky在一起，她们在讨论金缮（kintsugi）这个词。就像是黄金修复，当你用黄金修复破碎的陶器时，她们谈到完美并不美，不要试图追求完美，裂缝和瑕疵让你更有趣、更美丽。梅根在那个时刻显然非常真诚。这正是她的节目和她自己想要传达的主题。

She's with her friend Vicky who's Taiwanese, and they're talking about this term kintsugi. It's like golden repair. Like when you repair a broken pottery with gold, they talk about how perfect isn't beautiful and stop trying to be perfect and the cracks and the imperfections make you more interesting and more beautiful. And Megan is very earnest, obviously, in that moment. It's exactly the theme of her show and of her that she wants to portray.

她几乎要哭了。我们当然都在想她逃离王室家族的那些事。然后她周围的一切都是完美的。我觉得这似乎就像，然后你环顾厨房，你会想，但这一切都太完美了。

And she's almost about to cry. And we are all, of course, thinking about her royal family escape and all that stuff. And then and then everything around her is perfect. I think that seems just like and then you look around the kitchen, and you're like, but it's all perfect.

而且她大约80%的时间都穿着白色衣服。

And also she wears white, like, 80% of the time.

钟形袖做饭，非常不实用。总之。

Bell sleeves to cook. Very impractical. Anyway.

我记得亨特·哈里斯提到过，真正有趣的是，如果穿插一些她在家实际做这些事的片段会怎样，比如哈利用iPhone拍摄的那些？是的。如果你想捕捉那种凌乱不完美的感觉，就需要一些不是在布景完美灯光下拍摄的内容。对吧？完全正确。

I think Hunter Harris brought this up and that what would have been really interesting is, like, what if you intercut this with some footage of her actually doing this stuff in her home that, like, Harry shot on his iPhone? Yeah. Like, if you wanted to get at that that sort of, like, messily imperfect stuff, you need to have stuff that is not shot with perfect lighting on on what amounts to be a set. Right? Totally.

我再次认为，他们要么没有仔细考虑，要么不愿意提供那种亲密感，但仍在言辞上声称拥有它。

And I again, I think that they didn't think through or didn't want to offer that sort of intimacy, but still want to claim it rhetorically.

是的。我感觉好多了。当你不明白问题出在哪里时，一切似乎都在逐渐明朗起来。是的，然后你得去理解它。

Yes. And I feel so much better. I feel like it's all coming into shape, you know, when you don't know why something is wrong. Yes. And then you have to, like, get it.

是的，感觉很好。

Yeah. It feels good.

好的。那么最后一个问题是，我想，关于这是否有可能其实是正确的？或者，嗯，基本上就是她与 aspirational lifestyle content（理想生活方式内容）的终极 boss 的比较。这个问题来自米歇尔。

Okay. So last question is, I think, about is there any way that this could actually be right? Or, like Yeah. Basically, like, comparison of her and also the final boss of aspirational lifestyle content. So this one comes from Michelle.

我最近看了玛莎·斯图尔特的纪录片，到最后我发现我仍然不喜欢她。很可能，我甚至更不喜欢她了。但我发现我现在以一种前所未有的方式钦佩她。因为我意识到，首先，她的商业机会受到了性别的限制。其次，我意识到她成为了怨恨的目标，而拥有她那种权力和特权的男性永远不会面临这种情况，这让她的故事有点像《化学课》情节线，但针对的是非常富有的人。

I recently watched the Martha Stewart documentary, and I found by the end that I still don't like her. Quite possibly, I actually like her even less. But I found that I do now admire her in a way that I hadn't before. Because I realized that, first of all, her business opportunities were limited by her gender. And secondly, I realized that she became a target for resentment in ways that men with her kind of power and privilege never would have faced, which turned her story into kind of like a lessons in chemistry plot line, but for the very rich.

这些能帮助我们以不同方式理解和看待梅根及其节目吗？我极度厌倦名人获得关注和金钱，而更有资格、更有趣的普通人却应该在播客、书籍、电视节目、服装系列等方面得到这些。但我也在寻找一种方式，或许能看到性别在此情境中如何与阶级相交织，使其复杂化，并可能改变我们的看法。

Can any of this help us understand and approach Meghan and her show differently? I'm desperately tired of celebrities getting attention and money when far more qualified and interesting regular people deserve it for podcasts, books, TV shows, clothing lines, etcetera. But I'm also looking for a way, maybe, to see how and if gender intersects with class in this situation to complicate it and maybe change our perspective on it.

还有种族因素，肯定是的，对吧？肯定。你看过玛莎的纪录片。

And race for sure. Right? For sure. You've watched the Martha documentary.

当然，是的。我也很喜欢这个问题。

Sure. Yeah. I love this question too.

另外，我必须说，玛莎的纪录片也是另一种语调混乱的作品。

Also, I have to say, Martha documentary, another jumble of tone.

确实如此。

That's true.

前半部分完美，后半部分一团糟。

A perfect first half and a mess of a second half.

嗯。

Mhmm.

是的。因为玛莎愿意对她前半生非常亲密且细致地观察和描述，但基本上之后就不愿意了，她就像是

Yeah. Because Martha was willing to be very intimate and observational about the first half of her life and not willing basically, after the rest, she's like

对。她她不想

Yes. She she doesn't wanna

不想去那里。或者也许还没处理好。对吧？但我确实欣赏这个问题强调了，就像，这一切简直是一团糟。

Doesn't wanna go there. Or maybe hasn't processed it yet. Right? But I do appreciate how this question underlines the ways that, like, that's just like, all of this is a shit show.

是啊。

Yeah.

没人要求哈里做这该死的节目。你知道吗？就像，他们需要赚钱。我猜哈里写了他的书。他就像是，完成了我的工作。

No one's asking Harry to do this fucking show. You know? Like, this is they need to make money. And I guess Harry did his book. He's like, did my work.

对吧？而且我其实认为做这个节目比哈里写那本书要费劲得多。

Right? And I would actually argue that this show is a lot more work than Harry writing that book.

是的。绝对是。我同意。我的意思是，他用了代笔作家。他只是跟一个人讲述了他的生活。

Yes. Definitely. I would agree. I mean, he had a ghost writer. He just told a guy about his life.

是的。

Yeah.

就像有人每个星期天都出现在他家门口，他和他聊了两个小时。也许有时候很难投入进去，但差不多就是这样。

He just like someone showed up to his house every Sunday, and he talked to him for two hours. And maybe it

有时候确实很难投入，但差不多就是这样。是的。

was hard sometimes to like get into it, but that's kind of it. Yeah.

是的。而且他不得不处理由此带来的后果。绝对是这样。但这是他们一起面对的事情。嗯。

Yeah. And he had to like deal with the the fallout from it. Absolutely. But that was something that they they were dealing with together. Mhmm.

哈里并没有因为这个节目受到批评。这是事实。而且，我认为仅仅因为梅根的身份——因为她不是英国人，因为她是黑人，因为她并非来自皇室传统，因为她总是被拿来和凯特比较。嗯。她总是在艰难地向上攀爬。

Harry is not getting criticized for this show. That's true. And also, like, I think simply because of Megan's identity, like, because she is not British, because she is black, because she doesn't come from, like, a royal tradition, because she's always compared to Kate. Mhmm. She's always climbing uphill.

是的。那么，在艰难攀爬的同时，如何用一个糟糕的流媒体平台拍摄真人秀呢？她背负着太多东西了。

Yes. So how do you film a reality show with a kind of shitty streamer while marching uphill? Like, she's carrying so much on her back

我知道。

I know.

试图让这个模式行得通。我认为Netflix是目前最接近传统电视网络的平台了。所以很多人都在观看并评论它。

To try to make this work. And I I think Netflix is is the closest approximation that we have now to, like, network television. So a lot of people are watching this and critiquing it.

是的。

Yeah.

是啊。你怎么看？

Yeah. What do you think?

我完全同意。我从玛莎纪录片里记住的一句话至今还经常想起，有个律师——应该是某个评论嘉宾说的——基本上就是说，做个泼妇其实不算犯罪。对啊。她基本上就因为是个泼妇而被定罪了。

I I totally agree. One line that I took from the Martha documentary that I still think about all the time is there was a I think there was a lawyer. Some one of the talking heads was basically like, being a bitch actually isn't a crime. Like Yeah. She got, like, basically convicted for being a bitch.

而且，对啊，那确实不是犯罪。完全同意。我经常这么想：伙计们，当个泼妇不犯法。

And, like Yeah. Actually, that's not a crime. Totally. And I think that all the time. Like, being a bitch isn't a crime, guys.

我就是总记得这句话。看剧的时候我也这么想，她确实有点烦人，但烦人又不犯法。而且她的烦人方式就像——没人会故意讨人厌，但我知道很多人就是这样，也没关系。我还是喜欢其中很多人。

I I just remember it all the time. And I thought that when I was watching the show, like, she comes off as a little annoying, but, like, being annoying isn't a crime. And, like, being annoying like, she's annoying in the way that'll like, no one's trying to be annoying. And she's annoying in a way that like, I know a lot of people that are, and it's fine. Like, I still like a lot of them.

我不知道。我只是觉得这非常——

I don't know. I I just it felt like that is If very

我们试图做这个节目，天哪，我们会有多烦人。就像，我们会在镜头前说些奇怪的话，试图显得随意。比如，有人在模仿她，我...我现在到处都看到这个，说她所有的短语都非常像千禧一代长辈的风格。就像，她会说，我的培根把所有的男孩都吸引到院子里来。

we tried to do this show Oh my how annoying we would be. Like, weird things that we would say on camera trying to be casual. Like, someone was ripping her and I I and now I see this all over the place about how, like, all of her phrases are, like, very elder millennial. Like, she's like, my bacon brings all the boys to the yard.

完全同意。很多臭虫问题。

Totally. A lot of bedbugs.

还有第一杯咖啡。诸如此类的东西。我就想，哦，我会说些这么奇怪的话

And first coffee. Like, stuff like that. And I'm like, oh, I would say such weird stuff

在镜头前。完全正确。而且，在公众面前做真实的自己其实挺难的。就像，即使我在麦克风前，我也得提醒自己，不要试图成为广播版的自己。你知道有观众在，但是，要做真实的自己，不要陷入机器人思维之类的。

on camera. Totally. And also, like, it is pretty hard to be yourself in public. Like, even when I'm on mic, I have to remind myself, like, don't try to be an on air version of yourself. Like, you know you're there's an audience, but, like, be the yourself version of yourself and, like, don't fall into robot brain and all that stuff.

我和我的伴侣把它比作机器人思维与人类思维。就像，保持人类思维。是的。所以，我认为这确实是很大的双重标准。

My partner and I think of it as, like, robot brain versus human brain. Like, stay in human brain. Yes. So yeah. So I do think that's, like, major double standard.

而且，你知道，我相信你也收到过邮件。我肯定收到过关于我说'like'的次数或者我声音中的语气习惯让人烦恼的邮件。

And, you know, I'm sure you've gotten emails. I've certainly gotten emails about the amount I say like or or just like tone ticks in my voice that bother people.

是的。我们太烦人了。就像作为女性在公共论坛上说话一样。而她在这里说话、露面，试图既当专家又当新手。对吧。

Yes. We are so bothersome. It's just like just talking in a public forum as women. And here she is talking, appearing, trying to both, like, be an expert, but also be a novice. Right.

事实上我们很多人都擅长某些事，但对其他事一无所知。这应该能引起共鸣。但我觉得部分原因是我们希望女性非此即彼，对吧？要么像玛莎那样成为终极boss。

Which a lot of us actually are good at some things and need don't know anything about other things. Like, it should be relatable. But I think in part because we want women to fall into one of two boxes. Right? Like, either you are the final boss like Martha.

我早先在节目里也说过，我希望她要么是终极boss，要么就像赛琳娜·戈麦斯那样什么都不懂。

I even said this earlier in the show. I want her to either be final boss or I want her to not know anything like Selena Gomez.

是的，我也有同感。我希望她要么是专家，要么不是。她在这两者之间摇摆不定确实让我很困扰。

Yes. I felt that way too. I want her to be an expert or not. It did really bother me that she was she was fluctuating between those things. Yeah.

但也许这样也没关系，我不确定。

But maybe that's fine. I don't know.

这就得回到一个事实：这不是一部好电视剧。对吧？因为你需要明确角色定位。所以即使梅根本人处于中间状态，这也不是个好角色。

This is where we have to go back to the fact that like this isn't a good TV show. Right. Because you need to know who your character is. Yeah. And so even if Megan herself is somewhere in between those things, that's not a good character.

是的，你无法围绕这样的角色构建叙事。

Yeah. You can't write a narrative around it.

完全正确。这让我想到，就像对待任何作品一样，你把它打印出来阅读，试着不加标注地通读一遍，然后回到开头思考：这到底在讲什么？但感觉这部剧根本没做到这点。

That's totally true. It reminds me of like like with any piece like you kinda like you print it out and you read it and then you try to read it like without putting I mean, do at least try to read it without putting any marks on it and then go back to the top and think like, okay, what is this about? Yeah. Yes. And it just felt like that didn't happen.

通常你在文章结尾处会逐渐写出这种感觉。我觉得，我大概能看出他们想拍的那种剧集，或者可能是梅根想拍的那种。嗯。即使到了第四集，我对它的感觉更清晰了一些。但这并不是这部剧自认为的样子。

And usually you write your way into it by the end of the piece. I feel like if you you like, I kind of know what the show that they wanted to make is or that maybe that Megan wanted to make. Mhmm. Even on episode four, I get more of a sense of it. But it's not the show that the show thinks that it is.

是的。是的。不过我想说，我很好奇第二季会发生什么，因为如果他们能设法扭转局面并做对的话，她和她的故事里其实有很多非常有趣的元素。而且，有很多事情同时交织在一起。包括她的性别、她的生活经历，以及我们刚才讨论的那些方面。

Yeah. Yeah. I will say though, like, there's something I'm curious what will happen in season two because if they if they can somehow turn it around and do it right, like, there are a lot of really interesting elements to her and to her story. And, like, there are a lot of things intersecting all at the same time. There's her gender and her life experience and her sort of what we were talking about.

她曾属于不同的社会阶层，她是混血儿且是非裔，她母亲是非裔美国人，这既涉及种族也涉及文化。她是加州人，那是一种有趣的文化。她还去过英国，她的丈夫是非常古板的英国白人。总之，那里有很多线索。一部好剧能让一个人同时具备多种特质。

She's been a member of different social classes, and she's biracial and black, her mother's African American, which is also it's a race and a culture. And she's Californian and that's an interesting culture. And she went to The UK and she's her husband is very stodgy white British. That's an interesting anyway, there are a lot of strands there. And a good show can let a person be many things at once.

就像，我们都知道我们每个人都是多面的，并且渴望在电视上看到这种呈现。而最好的电视剧或电影，会提醒我们这一点。只是这部剧没有做好。

Like, I think we all know that we are all many things at once and, like, crave seeing that on TV. And, like, the best TV or the best films, like, remind us of that. It just just didn't do it right.

她的人生经历非常有趣，充满了许多好事和许多坏事。

She has led a really interesting life full of a lot of good stuff and a lot of bad stuff.

嗯。

Mhmm.

而这部剧就像把她塞进了一件紧身连体衣里。是的。完全平庸无趣。我认为这并不符合她的真实经历。也许她这样做部分是出于安全考虑，我能理解。但这也并不意味着它因此就成为一部好剧。

And the show as is zippers her into, like, this bodysuit Yeah. Of blandness Totally. That I don't think is true to her experience. And maybe she is doing that in part to herself out of safety, and I understand that. But also, that doesn't mean that it makes it a good show.

是的。嗯。我们能

Yes. Yeah. Can we

结束这期节目，用形式和风格上最让我们抓狂的部分来收尾？因为我们还没讨论一件事，我真的很想聊聊。戴夫，如果你愿意，我可以先说。

end the show, this show, with the part of the show that formally, in terms of form and style, bugged us the most? Because we have it there's one thing that we have not talked about that I really wanna talk about. Dave, I can go first if you want me to.

好的。我的点很小众。就是特别针对我个人。

Okay. Mine's very niche. That it's like very specific to me.

我讨厌的是那种烦人的音乐，用他们刚说过的话找歌词匹配的歌。比如，他们正在做蘸酱，就放‘当我蘸，你蘸，我们蘸’之类的。对吧？这太业余了。或者有人说‘开心’。

Mine is the annoying ass music that uses like words that they've said, and then finds a song that uses the music. Like, and they just were making dip, and they played like, when I dip, you dip, you dip. Right? That's like it's so amateur. Or like someone says, like, happy.

就像，节目里有很多嘟喔普音乐，但也不全是。如果你就喜欢那种风格，比如只用五六十年代的摩城音乐，也行。嗯哼。但别用别人刚说的话，然后去谷歌搜含那个词的歌。

Like, it'd be there's there's a lot of doo wop in the show or like but, like, that's not all that they use. Like, you can if maybe if that's your vibe, like, oh, we're only gonna have, like, Motown fifties and sixties music. Cool. Mhmm. But don't use words that someone has just said, and then, like, use that at, like then, like, Google search, like, what's a song that uses that word?

而且还放‘当我蘸，你蘸，我们蘸’。就像，这太…… 是的。这显得很不专业。在我看来，这要么是音乐总监太差，要么根本就没音乐总监。

And then also have when I dip, you dip, we dip. Like, it's so Yeah. It's like it's it's just not savvy. It's like the sign to me of either a really bad music director or a nonexistent one.

是的。所以真的很差。我笔记里也写了。音乐糟糕。我完全同意。

Yes. That's why is really bad. It was in my notes too. Music bad. I totally agree.

感觉就是有点奇怪的廉价感。天哪，我有很多想说的。我的意思是，有很多小细节，比如音乐，不知道哪些花园是她的花园，有点像是，我不知道。就像最后我很喜欢的那段，爱丽丝·沃特斯出场了。她是个偶像人物。

It just felt like kind of budget in a weird way. Man, I got a lot. I I mean, there's a lot of little things like the music, the not knowing which gardens were her gardens, kind of like I don't know. They're like I loved at the very end, Alice Waters was on. She's an icon.

能请到她真的很棒，但他们让她上节目，她算是农场到餐桌运动的创始人。他们让她上节目表面上是帮梅根办派对，但她却没被邀请参加派对。这太糟糕了。为什么你不邀请，比如，食物的偶像之类的人物来参加这个派对？但最让我生气的是第七集里，她和她的朋友维姬在一起。

Like, very wonderful to have her, but they put her on the show to she's sort of like the founder of the, you know, farm to table movement. And they put her on the show ostensibly to help Megan throw a party, but then she wasn't invited to the party. And, like, that was terrible. Like, why would you not invite, like, the found whatever, like, an icon of food to this party? But the thing that upset me the most was in episode seven, she's with her friend Vicky.

我觉得这一集最有趣。她的这位朋友是台湾人，她在教梅根她母亲的台湾锅贴食谱。再一次，完全是我的菜。你是怎么传承故事的？怎么通过食谱和食物传递传统？

This I I found it the most interesting episode. She's this her friend who's Taiwanese, and she's teaching Megan her recipe for her mother's Taiwanese pot stickers. And again, like, all up my alley. How do you sort of, like, pass stories down? How do you pass tradition down through recipes and food?

多好的机会啊。她说，好的，把食谱念给我听。维姬在给她念食谱。其中一个配料是法希塔调味料，在一个台湾锅贴食谱里。

What an opportunity. She says, okay. Read me the recipe. Vicky is reading her the recipe. One of the ingredients is fajita seasoning in a Taiwanese potsticker recipe.

梅根在翻找，看起来像是，我觉得我没有那个。然后她说，哦，法希塔调味料。维姬就说，嗯，我母亲来自德克萨斯。然后她们俩都笑了，然后就这样结束了。我当时就想，拜托，亲爱的上帝，这可是个有趣对话的机会啊。

And Megan is looking through, like like, looking as if, I don't think I have that. And she says, like, oh, fajita seasoning. And Vicky goes, well, my mother is from Texas. And then they both laugh, and then that was it. And I was like, please, dear god, a chance for an interesting conversation.