2000年代文化如何影响了我们

嘿，我是安妮。每个月我们会挑选一集免费开放给所有人。你将收听到完整节目，包括通常仅供付费订阅者的“向安妮提问”环节。本周这集非常精彩，敬请期待。付费订阅者的其他福利包括每集的讨论帖，这些讨论非常有趣，有时还挺火辣的，还有无广告体验。

Hey, it's Anne. Once a month, we pick an episode to make free for everyone. You'll get the whole show, including the Ask Anne Anything segment, which is usually just for paid subscribers. It's a really good one this week, so be excited. Other perks for paid subscribers include discussion threads for each episode, which are really fun and sometimes kind of spicy, and an ad free experience.

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好的。谢谢大家。享受节目吧。这里是《文化研究播客》，我是安妮·海伦·彼得森。

Okay. Thanks, everyone. Enjoy the show. This is the Culture Study Podcast, and I'm Anne Helen Peterson.

我是索菲·吉尔伯特。《大西洋月刊》的特约撰稿人，也是《女孩对女孩：流行文化如何让一代女性与自己为敌》的作者。

I'm Sophie Gilbert. I'm a staff writer at the Atlantic, and I'm the author of Girl on Girl, How Pop Culture Turned a Generation of Women Against Themselves.

在《女孩对女孩》的引言中，你谈到了1999年发生的三个文化事件，当时你16岁，我想我17岁。所以差不多是同一时期。这些事件似乎定义了作为女性意味着什么，尤其是在我们成长的地方。你能谈谈这些事件以及你对它们的记忆吗？

In the introduction to Girl on Girl, you talk about three cultural events that happened in 1999 when you were 16 and I was, I think 17. So right around the same time. That seemed to define what it meant to be a woman, especially where we were growing up. Can you talk about those events and what you remember from them?

是的。第一个显然是布兰妮·斯皮尔斯登上《滚石》杂志封面。我想她当时17岁，照片由大卫·拉夏佩尔进行了Photoshop处理。大家一看到就会认出来，就是那张她穿着粉黑波点胸罩的照片。一只手拿着电话在通话，另一只手紧抱着一个天线宝宝玩偶。

Yeah. There's, the first one is obviously Britney Spears on the cover of Rolling Stone. I think she was 17 at the time in a photoshopped by David Le Chapelle. Everyone will know it when they see it, but it's the photo where she's in a pink and black polka dot bra. One hand, she's holding a phone, she's talking to the phone, the other hand, she's clutching a Teletubby doll.

在很多方面都是非常丰富、内涵深厚的画面。是的。后来很多人告诉我，《Baby One More Time》问世的那一刻，他们觉得自己的童年结束了。所以我逐渐认为这张照片在很多方面都充满了深意。但这是其中之一。

Just very rich, rich image in so many ways. Yes. A lot of people have since told me that the moment Baby One More Time came out was the moment they saw their childhood as ending. So I've sort of come to see this this picture as fraught in in lots of ways. But that's one.

另一件事是电影《美国丽人》的上映，我当时在影院看的。觉得这部电影极具艺术性，而且很符合我的品味。堪称一大成就。

Another was the release of the movie American Beauty, which I saw in theaters at the time. Thought was this incredibly artistic and like me too. Achievement there.

天啊。艺术电影。

Oh my gosh. Art cinema.

是啊。那些玫瑰。那个袋子。袋子在风中飘浮。但现在我四十多岁了才意识到，这其实是一部关于中年男人对自己女儿闺蜜的病态性迷恋的电影，虽然影片用非常华丽的画面包装——就像我说的，那些玫瑰花瓣，非常唯美。

Yeah. The roses. The the bag. The bag floating in the wind. So but it I realized now now I'm in my forties that it's a movie about a middle aged man's obsessive sexual fixation on his teenage daughter's best friend, which the movie, it does dress up as this very opulent kind of, like I said, a very aesthetic, the rose petals.

它确实把米娜·苏瓦丽呈现得很美。我在书里将其描述为一种情色化的花卉中心装饰。但确实，很奇怪的电影。而且我最近也在想安妮特·贝宁饰演的角色，莱斯特多么憎恨他的妻子——那个野心勃勃的职业女性，其实在很多方面都尽了最大努力。

It really presents Minis Savari. I think in the book, I describe it as an eroticized floral centerpiece. But yeah. Like, weird weird film. And also, I've come to think recently about Annette Benning's character and how much Lester hates his wife who's this, like, ambitious careerist woman who's really doing her best in so many ways.

对。我觉得影片也在引导观众如何看待安妮特·贝宁的角色。对吧？是的。

Right. And how I think the viewer is taught to think about Annette Benning's character as well. Right? Right. Yeah.

那个令人难以置信的场景——她打扫公寓时向秃鹰什么的展示房子。表现得就像个怪物，对吧？但实际上她只是在尽最大努力卖房子。

The the incredible scene of her cleaning the apartment that she's showing the condor whatever. And how, like, it's monstrous. Right? When really it's I'm doing the best that I can to sell this house.

没错。她被塑造成一种歇斯底里的形象——用这个有争议的词来说，就是非常紧张、非常职业怪物式的， endlessly ambitious and grasping，对她的丈夫来说真的很 toxic，而丈夫只想卖汉堡、抽大麻、过好日子，并觊觎那个16岁女孩。

No. Absolutely. She's presented this as kind of, like, very hysterical to use a loaded word, like, very high strung, very sort of careerist monster who's endlessly ambitious and grasping and, like, really toxic to her husband who just wants to sell burgers and smoke weed and have a nice life and lust on this 16 year old.

我知道。你就像在说，冷静点。哇。

I know. You're like, chill out. Wow.

真是个烂片。但它赢得了包括最佳影片在内的五项奥斯卡奖。所以，是的，当时它被广泛接受为伟大的电影艺术作品。然后有两个不同的版本。一个在杂志上发表，一个在书中出版。

What a bitch. But it won five Oscars including Best Picture. So, yeah, was very much accepted at the time as a great work of cinematic art. And then the there are two different versions. One one ran in the magazine and one ran in the book.

那么你是在想，比如，议会大厦上的那个女人，还是在想Abercrombie and Fitch的目录？

So are you thinking maybe of, like, the woman on the houses of parliament or are you thinking of the the Abercrombie and Fitch catalog?

我读的那个版本是在书里的。所以好吧。那真是太有趣了。

I so the one version I read was in the book. So Okay. I that's so interesting.

那是英国版的。

That was the British.

他们有吗？是的。他们让你改了。嗯，那也很有趣，因为我认为这对你来说是一个重要的文化试金石。我从来没听说过，是的。我没听说过那个真是太蠢了。

Did they have yeah. They had you change it. Well, and that is interesting too because I think it's an important touchstone cultural touchstone for you. I had never heard of it, which Yeah. That's stupid that I hadn't never heard of that.

但它是当下发生的更大范围事件的一部分。

But it's part of this larger, like, phalanx of things that are going on at the moment.

是的。我在英国长大，像所有孩子一样，我小时候也看儿童电视节目。有一位主持人叫盖尔·波特，她比我大几岁，非常活泼可爱，是苏格兰人，我算是看着她的节目长大的。她当时正试图转型进入成人职业生涯，就像很多美国迪士尼明星那样。为了促成这一转型，她做的一件事是为一本男性杂志拍摄裸照。

Yeah. So so I grew up in in The UK and I grew up watching children's television as children are want to do. And there was a presenter called Gale Porter who I think was a few years older than me, who was very bubbly, very sweet Scottish, I'd kind of grown up watching her. She, I think, was trying to make the transition into a grown up career as lots of Disney stars do in The US. One of the things that she did to facilitate this transition was to pose naked for a men's magazine.

那本杂志在英国叫《For Him》。照片并不十分露骨，她是背对镜头的，你可以看到她的臀部，其他部位看不到多少，但很明显她是全裸的。杂志在她不知情或未经同意的情况下，将这张照片放大到50英尺，投影到了国会大厦上——那显然是我们在伦敦的政府所在地。

It was called For Him magazine in The UK. And it wasn't a very graphic picture. Think she was turned away from the camera, you could see her butt. You couldn't see much else but it was clear that she was naked. And the magazine without her knowledge or consent projected a 50 foot version of the picture onto the Houses of Parliament which is obviously where our government sits in London.

媒体当时把这看作是一个非常搞笑的噱头。但我想她对此感到非常崩溃。直到最近，我才真正意识到将其投影到国会大厦的象征意义——当时国会中女性议员不到三分之一。这实际上是在向我们当时的女性及女孩们宣告：你们属于柔焦摄影，而不是在这栋建筑里制定法律。

And it was seen as this very hilarious stunt, think, in the media. She, I think, was devastated by it. And it's only really, again, recently that I've come to see the symbolism of projecting it onto the houses of parliament where fewer than one in three members of parliament were women at the time. And really, like, asserting to us as women and girls at the time, like, you belong in soft focus photoshoots, not inside this building making laws.

是的。然后那个版本——那段摘录后来登在了《大西洋月刊》上，对吧？

Yeah. And then the version then the excerpt that ran for in it ran in the Atlantic. Right?

对，没错。

Yeah. Yeah.

裙带关系。你不是——这就是写书和在杂志工作的好处之一，你的摘录可以登在那里。确实如此。但那里面是包括了Abercrombie & Fitch的广告，还是只是一般的内容？具体里面有什么？

Nepotism. You're no. That's what I that's one of the perks of writing a book and working at a magazine is that your excerpt gets to run there. That's true. But that included the an Abercrombie and Fitch ad or just like the general what what was in in there?

所以我后来弄到了那本目录。我花了50美元买了一本，算是非常档案级的副本。那是Abercrombie & Fitch 1999年推出的假日目录，名叫《淘气还是乖巧》。没错。

So I have since gotten my hands on the catalog. I ordered a a $50, like, very archival copy of it. It it was the Abercrombie and Fitch holiday catalog that came out at the 1999, and it was called Naughty or Nice. Yes.

而且

And

它针对的是，我想，Abercrombie的客户群，也就是13到18岁的青少年。而且它采用了——但这是我见过最令人作呕的内容之一。比如，它有一段对珍娜·詹姆森的采访，采访她的男人在整个过程中不断纠缠她，要求对她进行性接触。真的很恶心。可怜的珍娜。

it was targeting, think, Abercrombie's customer base, which is 13 to 18 year olds. And it featured but it was it is among the pawniest things I've ever seen. Like, it features an interview with Jenna Jameson where the man interviewing her just harangues her to let him touch her sexually throughout the interview. It's really gross. Poor Jenna.

还有一段对17岁的莉莉·萨维斯基的采访，我记得她当时刚拍完《大开眼戒》。但描述她时用了“洛丽塔”这样的词。有很多引导性问题，问她是不是坏女孩之类的。这真的——我甚至想专门为这本Abercrombie目录写一篇文章。是的，因为它简直就是一部丰富的文本。

There's also an interview with 17 year old Lily Savisky who I think was just coming out of Eyes Wide Shut at the time. But it describes her as a Lolita. Like there's all this very sort of quest leading questions about whether or not she's a bad girl. It's just this really I kind of wanna write an essay just about this one Yes. Like, catalog, Abercrombie catalog because it's just such a rich text.

而且，你知道，我觉得这些之所以如此有效，是因为它们非常生动，容易让人记住，尤其对我们这个年龄段的人。但我觉得，如果你年纪更大，目睹这些时会想，这到底是怎么回事？或者如果你更年轻，从那种距离感来看，比如11岁的孩子会觉得这就是青少年感兴趣的，那我应该也感兴趣。但你在书中非常出色地定位了这个时刻，以及，你知道，向两千年的过渡，就像是九十年代女性主义复杂谈判所带来的结果。我们会深入讨论这些，也有相关问题要探讨。

And, you know, I think these work so effectively because they're such vivid, like things that stick in your head, especially for people our age. But I think also if you're older and you're witnessing this and you're like, what is going on here? Or if you're younger and you see it from that remove of like, oh, I'm 11 and this is like what teens are interested in, then I should be interested in it. But you do such a great job in the book of positioning this moment and like the, you know, the the transition into the 2 thousands as reaping the wages of a lot of complicated negotiations of feminism that were happening in the nineties. We're gonna get into all of that, and we have questions that specifically deal with that.

但我很想知道，你是怎么决定要写一本关于这些议题的书的？

But I would love how did did you become convinced that you wanted to write a book about these issues?

很多事情接连发生，而且我为《大西洋月刊》写的文章总是围绕非常相似的主题。显然，2016年唐纳德·特朗普击败了希拉里·克林顿，当时让我非常震惊。大约一年后，#MeToo运动爆发了，其实不到一年。它清楚地表明，尽管我们女性不断被告知在工作场所取得了巨大进步，做得很好，大步前进，但实际上对很多女性来说，职场环境仍然相当糟糕。然后新冠疫情来了。

A lot of things happened kind of all in a row, and my stories that I was writing for The Atlantic just ended up circling very similar themes. I think obviously Donald Trump beat Hillary Clinton in 2016 and that felt really shocking to me at the time. And Me Too happened a year later, not quite a year later. And it it made clear that despite the fact that we were, I think, constantly being told as women that we've made so much progress in the workplace and that we were doing so well and making great strides, it actually work was fairly awful still for lots of lots of women. COVID happened.

我在纽约疫情期间生了双胞胎，经历了严重的身份危机，因为我每晚只睡两小时，我觉得人在那种情况下会失去理智。我不能看电视，不能阅读，无法看完一部电影，什么也做不了。只能偶尔盯着手机几秒钟，仅此而已。当我重返工作、试图重新拼凑自己时，我意识到我的身份认同很大程度上是建立在文化作品上的——这听起来简单，但对我触动很深。后来罗诉韦德案被推翻后，我才明白，我原以为一生中必然的进步其实并非必然。

I had twins in New York during COVID and, like, went through a profound identity crisis because I was really sleeping two hours a night and you lose your sanity, I think, when that happens. I couldn't watch TV, I couldn't read, I couldn't sit through a movie, couldn't do anything. I could stare at my phone for seconds at a time, but that was it. And I realized in the process when I went back to work and I started like trying to put myself back together again, like how much I'd constructed my identity out of cultural works, like which seems simple, but it it really kind of hit it home for me, I think. And then after Roe was overturned, I I just realized that the progress that I had assumed would be inevitable throughout my life was not inevitable, in fact.

不知为何，一切对我来说都不断回溯到两千年代。我在想，如果我能回到那个时代看看，是否能让我们的近代历史变得更有意义。

And for some reason, everything kept coming back to the two thousands to me. And I I wondered if I could go back and look at that era, whether I could make any of our recent history make sense.

是的。我认为罗伊案的推翻对很多人来说是一个非常震惊的时刻，他们原本觉得，好吧，特朗普上台了，然后我们经历了MeToo运动。接着，罗伊案的推翻又恰逢很多被MeToo运动波及的人重新进入市场。对吧？就像这种反击的方式激怒了一群男性，于是出现了这种试图以非常恶劣的方式重新巩固父权制的企图。

Yeah. I think that the overturning of Roe was a very startling point for a lot of people who thought, okay, well, Trump happened and then we had me too. And then, you know, the the overturning of Roe also coincided with a lot of people who were Me Too'd reentering the marketplace. Right? Like like this idea that pushing back in that way, like, pissed off a bunch of men and there's this attempt to reinscribe patriarchy in really, like, gross ways.

是的，百分之百同意。MeToo运动的反冲在这方面真的很有启发性。就像，女性因为说出发生在自己身上的真相而做得太过分了这种想法，真的就像是，没人考虑男性。是的，这非常引人注目。

Yeah. A 100%. The backlash to me too was really instructive, I think, on that front. Like, the idea that women had gone too far by telling the truth of what had happened to them was was really like, well, no one think of the men. It was, yeah, it was very striking.

没错。好吧，我要先记下这个，因为我想进入问题环节，我们会详细讨论这个。嗯。我之前在开始录音前告诉过你。

Yeah. And okay. I'm gonna save this because I wanna get into the questions because there's gonna we're gonna talk a lot about it. So Mhmm. We got I told you this before we started recording.

我们收到了非常精彩的问题。我们总是这样，但这次特别出色，因为有很多和我们年龄相仿的女性听众。我想我们很多人都在以你在书中处理的方式，以及我认为听众们会觉得这本书非常吸引人的方式，努力应对同样的问题。我知道这是一种难以调和的方式，比如我们是如何参与其中的。对吧？

We got spectacular questions. We always do, but we got particularly spectacular ones because there are a lot of women who are approximately our age who listen to this show. And I think a lot of us are grappling in the same way that you do in the book and in a way that I think listeners, you're going to find this book really compelling. I know a way that's difficult to reconcile, like how we participated in it. Right?

就像，回头看并说那很恶心并不那么容易。而且当时，我也觉得那很恶心。但更像是，不，那确实很恶心。而当时，我有点像是，好吧，事情就是这样。

Like, it's not so easy as like looking back and be like, that was gross. And at the time, I also thought it was gross. It was like, no, that was gross. And at the time, I was kind of like, fine. This is how it is.

不。那对我来说是这本书的核心问题。我记得布兰妮剃光头的时候我在餐厅工作，我的经理不断来找我给我更新消息，带我回办公室看电脑，就像是娱乐一样。它就像一部滚动播出的肥皂剧，有着TikTok式的更新，而我完全没有意识到享受一个女人的危机是残酷的。

No. That was the central question of the book for me. Like, I remembered I was working in restaurants when Britney shaved her head, my manager kept coming to get me to give me updates and, like, to bring me back to the office so I could look at the computer and be like, and it was like it was like entertainment. It was it was like this rolling soap opera with like the TikTok of updates and no part of me I think seem to see it as cruel that I was enjoying this woman's crisis.

是的。不。我只是疯狂地刷新佩雷斯·希尔顿的网站看发生了什么。就像我在“研究”它，对吧？因为那时候我并没有在读硕士，也没有在写关于名人八卦的论文。

Yeah. No. I just like manically refreshing Perez Hilton to see what was happening. Like I was studying it in quotes, right? Like because at that time I wasn't doing my masters and writing my thesis on celebrity gossip.

但同时我在想，这是一个真实的人，我认为应对这种参与感很重要，但也很难。是的。那么让我们从第一个问题开始。这个问题来自Leah，它将帮助我们做一些历史背景铺垫。

But at the same time I was like, this is a person and I think grappling with that participation is is important, but also difficult. Yeah. So let's start with our first question. This comes from Leah and it will help us do a little bit of historical scene setting.

也许是因为我对这个时代来说有点老了。我是这里最年长的千禧一代。但对我来说，很难将两千年代流行文化中的女性形象与九十年代的性别政治分离开。作为一个在1999年满18岁的女性，我的青少年时代目睹了女性和女性主义一次又一次成为笑柄。安妮塔·希尔、莫妮卡·莱温斯基，这个名单很长。

So maybe it's because I'm a little old for this time period. I am the very eldest of millennials here. But for me, it's hard to separate the representation of women in the pop culture of the two thousands from the gender politics of the nineteen nineties. As a woman who turned 18 in 1999, I spent my teenage years watching women and feminism become a punchline again and again. Anita Hill, Monica Lewinsky, it's a very long list.

所以在千禧年之交，我还没有被激进化。那是后来的事，我当时相当认同那种信息：女性已经过得相当不错了，我们应该满足于已有的成就，保持冷静。很难不认为这种态度为随后流行文化中女性形象的许多表现奠定了基础。所以我的问题是，九十年代性别政治及其所有失败，与两千年代流行文化中对女性的态度描绘之间，有什么贯穿始终的联系？

So at the turn of the millennium, I wasn't yet radicalized. That came later, and I was pretty bought in on the message that women had a pretty good, and then we should be glad of what we had and just be chill. And it's hard not to think that that kind of attitude set the stage for a lot of what followed in terms of the representation of women in pop culture. So I guess my question is, what is the through line between the gender politics of the nineteen nineties and all its failings, and the portrayals of attitudes towards women in the pop culture of the February?

我觉得Leah刚刚为你的书设定了主题。

I think that Leah just like set the prompt for your book.

这简直就是，嗯，这就是全部。这就是所有内容。我的意思是，我本来是要写一本关于两千年代的书，然后在我做的所有研究中，对这个时期至关重要的每件事都发生在九十年代。就像，没错。正是那个十年让一切对我来说都变得合理了。

It it's literally, like, this is everything. This is all of it. I mean, I I was in it was supposed to be a book about the February, and then in all the research I did, everything that was crucial to the period happened in the nineties. Like, it Exactly. It was just the decade that made it all made sense to me.

首先，因为我们当时在处理，嗯，我认为来自艾滋病的性文化焦虑，来自这场真正的健康危机。这场非常，嗯，深刻的危机我认为让人们对性和性行为在很多方面感到非常奇怪。但也因为90年代是这样一个十年：你见证了第三波女性主义的转变，初期表现在Riot Grrrl运动和Leah提到的安妮塔·希尔的行动主义，以及“女性之年”和女性以创纪录的数量竞选公职，还有我记得成长过程中看的许多女性主义情景喜剧，因为我是由单身母亲抚养长大的。我记得看像《烈火危情》和所有这些关于坚强单身女性抚养孩子的精彩情景喜剧。《凯特与艾莉》是另一个。

First of all, because we were dealing with, like, the cultural anxiety about sex, I think, that came from AIDS, from this real health crisis. This very, like, profound crisis that I think made people feel very strange about sex and sexuality in lots of different ways. But also because the 90s were the decade where you had the shift from third wave feminism that was manifesting in the beginning and the Riot Grrr movement and the activism of Anita Hill as Leah said and the Year of the Woman and women running for office and record numbers and lots of feminist sitcoms I remember from growing up because I was raised by a single mother. And I remember watching, like, grace under fire and all these great sitcoms about, like, tough single single women raising their kids. Kate and Allie was another one.

甚至像《罗珊娜》这样的剧，对吧？它是一部关于不忍受别人欺负的剧，很有趣。

Or even, like, Roseanne. Right? Like, Roseanne is a show that is fun like, it is a show about not taking shit from other people.

完全正确。但到了90年代末，风向转向了布兰妮和克里斯蒂娜那种超级性化的少女形象。我想了解从罗伊女孩（Royagirl）到那个运动的脉络。有趣的是，对我个人来说有点毁灭性，因为我是超级粉丝——我认为辣妹组合是转折点。是的。

Totally. But then by the end of the decade, you had this shift towards Britney and Christina and, like, super hypersexualized, teenage girls. And I wanted to know the through line really from Royagirl to that movement. And so what was interesting and it was kind of devastating to me personally because I was a huge fan was the gateway I think was the Spice Girls. Yeah.

因为她们在很多方面真正体现了后女性主义。后女性主义有点难以理解，因为并没有人真正高举它的旗帜。我不认为它有——

Because they really embodied post feminism in so many ways. Post feminism is a little bit tricky to understand because there wasn't really anyone waving the flag for it. I don't think it has,

就像女性主义者那样。我总是告诉我的学生，没有人会说‘我是后女性主义者’。是的。但我们应该定义它，因为我觉得这个词经常被随意使用，却并不总是被很好理解。

like, a feminist. Always tell my students. It's not like people were like, I'm a post feminist. Yeah. But we should define it because I think that it is one of those words that gets thrown around and is not always well understood.

但就像你说的，部分原因是它确实难以定义。

But like you said, that's in part because it is difficult to define.

是的。我的意思是，我逐渐认为它与其说是一种意识形态，不如说是媒体向人们推销东西的一种趋势。它反复告诉女性：女性主义不再必要了，它已经实现了所有目标，女性现在自由了。

Yeah. I mean, I've come to see it sort of less as an ideology than as a trend in media to sell things to people. And what it did was to tell women over and over, feminism is no longer necessary. It's achieved everything it ever will. Women are free now.

她们过得很好。你在赚钱。出去买任何你想要的东西。和任何你想睡的人睡觉。穿任何你想穿的衣服。

They're doing great. You're making money. Go out and buy anything you want. Sleep with anyone you want. Wear anything you want.

就像，我们不会像那些无聊的第二波女权主义者那样说教。哥们，基本上，姑娘们，去尽情生活吧。我觉得一个好的后女权主义电视剧是《欲望都市》、《BJ单身日记》、《甜心俏佳人》或者那些女权主义偶像。

Like, we won't be scolding, like, those boring second wavers. Like, dude, basically, girls, go live it up. Like, I I think a good post feminist TV show is Sex and the City, Bridget Jones, Halle McBeal or some of those feminist icons.

我，是的。我觉得它们对我来说，是典型的后女权主义。我第一次接触这个词是在研究生第一学期，当时我在研究朱莉娅·罗伯茨的明星形象。我遇到了所有这些女权主义，像真正的女权主义，第二波和第三波女权主义学者对《风月俏佳人》的研究，它当时在学术界成了这样，就像，我们如何定义后女权主义？就是通过讨论《风月俏佳人》。

I yeah. I think that they are like to me, they are quintessentially post feminist. The the first time I became acquainted with the term was my first semester of graduate school when I was trying to figure out the star image of Julia Roberts. And I encountered all of this feminist, like actual feminist, second wave and third wave feminist scholarship on pretty woman specifically, which became this, like within academic scholarship at the time became this, like, how do we define post feminism? It's by talking about pretty woman.

而且，就像，资本主义规范还没有像你在《欲望都市》中看到的那样完全固化。但你确实有，比如，那个购物场景，每个人都记得。对吧？而且就像，只要你对性诚实，它就是好的。对吧？

And, like, none of the capitalist norms have quite yet crystallized in the way that you see in, say, sex in the city. But you do have, like, the shopping scene, which everyone remembers. Right? And it's just like sex is good as long as you're honest about it. Right?

而且购物与这种理解交织在一起。购物和财富，以及，就像，广泛的消费，就像，帮助你成为一个在最后获得童话故事的公主。

And and shopping is intertwined with this understanding. Shopping and wealth and, like, and in consumption just broadly, like, helps you become a princess who gets a fairy tale at the end.

是的。而且我觉得它非常个人主义。相比于比如第三波女权主义更集体的能量来说。但我觉得如果你看‘女孩力量’这个口号以及Bikini Kill使用它的方式，他们是有意地将两个通常不会联系在一起词组合起来——女孩和力量。两个没有人会自然放在一起的词。

Yeah. And it's very individualist, I think. Individualistic compared with say the more collective energy of like third wave feminism. But I think if you look at the slogan girl power and the way it was used by Bikini Kill, who were using it very intentionally to put two words together that people wouldn't normally associate girl and power. Two words that no one would put together naturally.

并且以一种有意 activism 的方式这样做，真正为朋克场景中以及她们自己生活中的女性和女孩要求改变，反对性侵犯。这是一个非常有创意、非常有活力、非常 activism 的运动。然后辣妹组合出现了，他们有点挪用了‘女孩力量’的口号。但他们使用它的方式，它不再真正意味着任何东西。变得非常庆祝性。

And doing so in a way that was intentionally activist and really demanding change for women and girls in the punk scene but also in their own lives, demanding against sexual assault. This is very creative, very energetic, very activist movement. And then the Spice Girls came along and they sort of appropriated the slogan girl power. But the ways in which they used it, it didn't really mean anything anymore. Was like very celebratory.

就像，呜呼，女孩力量。我觉得它的能量和意图都丢失了。这对我来说真的似乎象征着从第三波女权主义到后女权主义的转变，以及从这个有意的运动到一个更庆祝性和被动性的转变。

Was like woo hoo, girl power. And the energy of it, I think, and the intention was lost. And that to me really seemed to symbolize like the shift from third wave feminism to post feminism and the shift from this like intentional movement to a much more sort of celebratory and passive one.

而且，我认为后女性主义的许多现象与后现代主义有相似之处，在于它们都痴迷于表面——就像在表层之下，任何更深层的意义都被掏空了。就像你说的，辣妹组合宣扬的是‘女孩力量’，但实际上它关注的是一套服装和人们给自己贴上的标签，比如通过选择其中一个角色来认同自己——运动辣妹，因为她穿运动裤。

And also, I think a lot of things that are happening with post feminism share resemblance with post modernism in that it's this obsession with surfaces like there's a hollowing out of of any sort of like larger meaning underneath. So like you said, like, Spice Girls is about girl power, but it's actually about a set of outfits and people, like, having names for which one that they are. Right? Yeah. Like, identifying with one of the characters, sporty spice because she wears warm up pants.

对我来说就是这样。而这 somehow 被视作赋权。或者说是将可见度等同于权力。

Like, that to me. And that that is somehow empowering. Or just, like, equating visibility with power as well.

是的。这正是两千年代其余时间真正关注的重点——可见度对女性可能意味着的力量。当然，金钱也非常重要，因为我在研究中发现，辣妹组合在成立前一年半的时间里，通过品牌和营销交易赚了5亿美元。哇。人们意识到青少年女孩作为一个消费群体拥有多少可支配收入，因为她们有保姆工作，没有房贷压力。

Yeah. That was that was the thing that the rest of the two thousands would really be about, like the the power of what visibility could mean for women. And money, of course, was really important because what I found out in my research was that the Spice Girls in their first year and a half as a band made $500,000,000 worth of branding and marketing deals. Wow. And people realized how much money teenage girls had as a demographic because they had babysitting jobs and they didn't have mortgages.

就好像她们有那么多钱可以在商场消费。一旦品牌负责人意识到这一点，我认为这实际上敲响了愤怒摇滚女声的丧钟，并开启了向流行明星转型的趋势——这些明星会拍百事广告，能向16岁女孩推销口红。这是一个非常重大的转变。

It's like they had all this money to spend at the mall. And once people in charge of brands figured that out, it was really the death knell, I think, for the angry women of rock. And it was the beginning of this shift towards pop stars who would do the Pepsi commercials and who could sell lipstick to 16 year olds. Like, that was that was such a significant shift.

我对布兰妮、克里斯蒂娜、曼迪·摩尔、杰西卡·辛普森——那个时期的所有女性——都有一种复杂的情感，因为当时我承认她们代表了流行，但我不太喜欢她们，对她们没有共鸣。我觉得这形成了一种有趣的关系：你向往某种规范，但同时又对它怀有某种怨恨。

I also, I have such a curious relationship with Brittany or Christina or Mandy Moore, Jessica Simpson, all of those women from that period, because I, at the time I appreciated that they were what popular was. Right. But I didn't particularly like them. I didn't feel affinity with them. And I think that that created this interesting relationship where there is a norm that you aspire to, but you also kind of have resentment for.

完全同意。是的。她们感觉就像那些我永远无法成为的受欢迎女孩。

Totally. Yeah. They felt so much like the popular girls who I would never be

没错。

Right.

或者被接纳为他们小团体的一员。就像，如此光鲜亮丽。在很多方面都那么有魅力，那么令人兴奋，但又完全不是那种你会真正共情或能想象自己穿上他们衣服的人。但这也是一个非常有趣的观点，就像，这种动态立刻建立起了一种怨恨和嫉妒的元素。

Or be accepted as part of their clique. Like, so shiny. So, like, so charismatic in lots of ways and so thrilling, but so not the kind of person you really empathize with or can imagine yourself being in their in their outfits even. But that's such an interesting point too, like, way that immediately the dynamic sets up, like, an element of resentment and envy.

是的。这也让我想起了我最喜欢的后女性主义学者之一，安吉拉·麦克罗比，她向我介绍了浪漫个人主义的概念，你在很多九十年代和二月的后女性主义电影中都能看到，即，这些电影中的女性，她们必须相互竞争来争夺一个男人。对吧？就像，你总是在和其他女性竞争。这也让我想起了更广泛的女权主义写作，关于这种痴迷于说其他女人坏话，不仅仅是八卦，而是总是比较自己，总是竞争，这分散了我们对更大女性主义目标的注意力。

Yeah. That also reminds me of one of my favorite scholars of post feminism, Angela McRobbie, introduced me to the concept of romantic individualism, which you see in a lot of the post feminist films of like the nineties and the February, which is that, like, women in these films, they have to compete against one another for a guy. Right? Like, that you are always competing with other women. And this also reminds me of general feminist writing about, like, how this obsession with talking shit about other women, not just gossip, but, like, always comparing yourself, always competing, that that distracts us from larger feminist goals.

对吧？就像，父权制在这方面非常聪明。不。让我们痴迷于此。

Right? That it's, like, very clever on the part of the patriarchy to No. To obsess us with this.

百分之百同意。我的意思是，如果我们不断地思考我们自己所有不符合这个不可能目标的方式，然后在这个过程中将其他女性与我们自己进行比较，就像，我们如此向内沉溺，以至于我们没有向外看，去思考我们真正需要什么，我们真正想改变什么。不。我想到了电影《结婚大作战》，就像是的。她们甚至不是在争夺一个男人。

A 100%. I mean, if we're constantly thinking about all the ways in which we ourselves do not measure up to this impossible goal and then, like, comparing other women to ourselves in in the process, like, we're thinking we get so drawn in inward that we're not looking outward to think about what we actually need, what we actually wanna change. No. I think about, like, the movie Bride Wars where it's like Yes. They're not even competing for a man.

她们在争夺，我不知道，像一个婚礼场地。我不记得了。已经过了

They're competing for, I don't know, like a wedding venue. I don't remember. It's been a

很长时间了。而且她们互相憎恨。对吧？

whole time. And they hate each other. Right?

但她们是最好的朋友。我知道。这这这这这是个糟糕的概念。

But they're best friends. I know. It's it's it's it's it's a terrible concept.

今天的节目由Beam赞助。即使在我三十出头的时候，我也会在半夜醒来，比如凌晨2点、3点。也许我需要去洗手间，也许不需要，但我就是很难不让我的大脑开始在那时思考我的待办事项清单。就像，哦，是的。现在正是我们应该开始思考所有那些该做的事情的时候。

Today's episode is sponsored by Beam. Even like starting in my early thirties, I would wake up in the middle of the night, like 2AM, 3AM. Maybe I'd have to go to the bathroom, maybe not, and I would just struggle so hard not to have my mind start going through my to do list just like right there. Like, oh, yeah. Now is the time when we should start thinking about all those things that we should do.

这让我压力很大。它让我想到，你没在睡觉，这让我对失眠更加焦虑。这是一个恶性循环。但事情不必如此。介绍一下Beam的Dream Powder。

And it stressed me out. Like it made me think about, you're not sleeping, which made me like more anxious about not sleeping. It's a bad cycle. But it doesn't have to be that way. Introducing Beam's Dream Powder.

所以这个东西，把它放进热水里。有点像热可可。我真的很喜欢肉桂可可口味，你可以在睡前把它当作一种放松的方式。它含有一系列天然成分，帮助你保持睡眠，这太棒了。还有一些你熟悉的成分，比如镁和褪黑素，它真的改变了我的睡眠。

So this stuff, put it into, like, hot water. It's kind of like hot cocoa. The flavor that I really like is cinnamon cocoa flavored, and you have it, like, kind of as a wind down before you go to sleep. And it has a bunch of natural ingredients that help you stay asleep, which is fantastic. And there's ingredients that you'll recognize like magnesium and melatonin, and it has really changed my sleep.

Dream是一种全天然睡眠混合饮品，含有科学支持的成分，旨在帮助你入睡、保持睡眠并精神焕发地醒来。与其他助眠产品不同，它不会导致次日昏沉，只是真正的深度睡眠，让你在早上真正感觉良好。现在，我仍然会醒来

Dream is an all natural sleep blend with science backed ingredients designed to help you fall asleep, stay asleep, and wake up refreshed. Unlike other sleep aids, there is no next day grogginess, just real deep sleep that helps you actually feel good in the morning. Now, I still wake

在

up in

半夜

the middle

因为我的狗有时会踩过我，但这与因为辗转反侧而在半夜醒来非常不同。所以使用Dream，你醒来时实际上精神焕发，不昏沉，不疲惫，只是准备好处理你待办事项清单上的所有事情，而这些事情你不应该在半夜思考。我不是唯一一个受益者。Beam已经改善了超过1750万个夜晚的睡眠，92%的受访用户报告睡眠更好且醒来精神焕发。现在限时期间，Beam为我的听众提供他们最好的优惠，高达40%的折扣。

of the night because my dog is sometimes walking over me, but that's very different than waking up in the middle of the night because you're tossing and turning. So with Dream, you wake up actually refreshed, not groggy, not still exhausted, just ready to take on all of those things on your to do list that you shouldn't be thinking about in the middle of the night. And I'm not the only one. Beam has improved over 17,500,000 nights of sleep, and ninety two percent of users surveyed reported better sleep and waking up refreshed. And right now for a limited time, Beam is giving my listeners their best offer yet, up to 40% off.

你可以尝试他们最畅销的梦境粉末，限时享受高达40%的折扣。请访问shopbeam.com/culture并在结账时使用优惠码culture。即shopbeam.com/culture，使用优惠码culture可享受高达40%的折扣。《文化研究播客》由Zbiotics糖转纤维赞助。你可能已经听过我们盛赞Zbiotics的饮酒前益生菌饮料。

You can try their best selling dream powder and get up to 40% off for a limited time. Go to shopbeam.com/culture and use the code culture at checkout. That's shopbeam.com/culture and use code culture for up to 40% off. The Culture Study Podcast is sponsored by Zbiotics Sugar to Fiber. So you've heard us rave about the Zbiotics pre alcohol probiotic drink.

我喜欢它，因为即使我只摄入少量酒精，如今第二天早上也能感觉到不适。但团队还推出了这款新产品，帮助你在不改变饮食习惯的情况下增加膳食纤维摄入。纤维多样性有助于维持平衡的肠道菌群，然而只有5%的美国人摄入足够的纤维。如果你像我一样，那是因为持续烹饪含纤维的食物实在很麻烦。这就是为什么我开始每天使用Zbiotics的糖转纤维益生菌饮料粉。

I love it because even when I consume a small amount of alcohol, I feel it in the morning these days. But the team has also released this new product that helps you get more fiber into your diet without necessarily changing what you eat. Fiber diversity supports a balanced gut biome, yet only five percent of Americans get enough fiber in their diet. So if you're like me, that's because it is a lot of work to cook stuff with fiber in it all the time. That's why I started using Zbiotics, sugar to fiber, probiotic drink mix every day.

我喜欢西兰花，它是我最爱的食物之一。我经常把它和面条、豆腐、鸡肉等搭配食用，但我就是超爱西兰花。不过这个产品让我不必只靠吃西兰花来补充纤维。Zbiotics的微生物学博士团队深知95%的美国人纤维摄入不足。

I love broccoli. It's like one of my favorite foods. I eat it with a lot of, like, noodles and tofu and chicken and other things, but I just I love broccoli. But this helps me, like, not only have to eat broccoli. The PhD microbiologist over at Z Biotics understand that ninety five percent of Americans don't get enough fiber.

因此他们通过基因工程研制出这款名为“糖转纤维”的益生菌饮料粉。你只需早晨将其加入热水中即可。有些人会把它加入奶昔中——我猜那其实就是冰沙的另一种说法。

So they genetically engineered a probiotic drink mix. It's called sugar to fiber. You just add it to your hot water in the morning. Some people add it to like a milkshake. I guess that's another word for a smoothie.

糖转纤维能将我日常饮食中的糖分转化为一种名为左旋纤维的益生元纤维。这种纤维在常规饮食中很难获取，它有助于提升身体获得的纤维量和多样性。每天早晨我在热水中加入一包糖转纤维，味道真的很不错。而且我感觉很棒。我们的身体如同错综复杂的奇妙领域，任何能让它显得更可靠、更稳定、更值得信赖的东西都非常棒。

Sugar to fiber turns sugar in the foods that I'm already eating into a prebiotic fiber called leaven fiber. It's really hard to get from a typical diet, and it helps improve the amount and diversity of fiber my body receives. Every day, I put a pack of sugar to fiber in my morning hot water, and it tastes really good, actually. And I feel great. Our bodies are confusing wonderlands so anything that can make it seem a little bit more, reliable, on track, dependable, it's great.

这就是为什么今年夏天我喜欢将Zbiotics糖转纤维纳入日常routine。这是个简单的改变，却能帮助确保我获得身体所需的多样化纤维。你可以访问zbiotics.com/culturestudy，在结账时使用优惠码CultureStudy享受首次订购Zbiotics益生菌产品15%的折扣。Zbiotics提供100%退款保证，若因任何原因不满意，他们将无条件退款。感谢Zbiotics赞助本期节目。

That's why I like Zbiotic sugar to fiber as a part of my daily routine this summer. It's an easy change to make and it helps ensure that I'm getting the diversity of fiber that my body needs. So you can go to zbiotics.com/culturestudy and use Culture Study at checkout for 15% off any first time orders of Zbiotics probiotics. Zbiotics has a 100% money back guarantee, so if you're unsatisfied for any reason, they will refund your money no questions asked. Thank you Zbiotics for sponsoring this episode.

好了。现在我们来谈谈性吧，因为我认为这是所有这一切的关键组成部分。下一个问题来自莫莉。

Okay. Let's talk about sex now because I think this is such a key component of all of this. So this next question comes from Molly.

我对21世纪初女性性解放的方式很感兴趣，当时看起来如此革命性——想想《欲望都市》中的萨曼莎、整期《Cosmo》杂志都在传授口交技巧、还有‘狂野女孩’现象——但最终很大程度上变成了一种包装好的厌女形式，并没有让女性更接近充实的性生活或接纳自己的身体。这在今天仍在以哪些方式影响我们？当前版本又是怎样的？我在想《摩门妻子的秘密生活》中有一位女性为了自信去做阴唇整形术，而这种手术的风险之一可能会影响未来获得高潮或享受性快感的能力。我们如何超越这一点并开始揭露它？

I'm interested in the ways in which women's sexual liberation in the early two thousands seemed so revolutionary at the time, think Sex and the City Samantha, entire Cosmo magazine editions dedicated to blowjob tips, Girls Gone Wild, but ended up being largely a prepackaged form of misogyny that did not move women anywhere closer to having a fulfilling sex life or embracing their bodies. What ways is this still impacting us today? What is the current version of this? I'm thinking about one of the women on Secret Lives of Mormon Wives getting a labia plasty for her own confidence, when one of the risks of that surgery could impact future ability to orgasm or enjoy sexual pleasure. How do we move beyond this and begin to call it out?

我还想提一下另一个我们没选的问题，因为它太宽泛但又非常重要。提问者提到，感觉我们讨论的几乎全是九十年代末流行歌星的处女问题，然后就不再谈论了。我认为这几乎就是在助长那种非常经典的处女/荡妇二元对立，对吧？

I also just want to mention another question which we didn't choose because it was so broad but so important. And that they this person asked, like, I feel like all we talked about was virginity in these pop stars in the late nineties in particular. And then we stopped talking about that. And I think that it's almost like it just feeds into this very classic virgin horror dichotomy. Right?

要么你应该是个处女，要么你就该痴迷于给人吹箫。

Where it's either like you are you either should be a virgin or like you should be obsessed with giving blowjobs.

是的。或者两者兼有。我认为流行明星陷入的陷阱是，她们被期望看起来像色情明星，但手指上戴着纯洁戒指，表演性爱但实际上不做爱。表现得性感但不能真正有性行为。我认为这正是这种动态给我们所有人设下的陷阱。

Yeah. Or or both. I think the trap that pop stars fell into was, like, they were expected to look like porn stars but wear purity rings on their fingers and, like, perform sex but not actually have sex. Like, be sexy but not not be sexual. And that, I think, is exactly the trap of this dynamic for all of us.

文化变得如此性化，但对女性来说，我认为更多是一种性表演。我认为色情的影响也非常重要，因为互联网突然让这个媒介变得巨大。是的。而且我们也意识到人们可能如何看待我们——就像性对象一样，以及我们可能被观看做爱的方式，即使我们并没有真的被拍摄。

Culture was so sexualized but it was, for women, I think so much more of a performance of sex. I think the influence of porn was really important too because it was suddenly this medium that was huge thanks to the Internet. Yeah. And and we were also aware of the ways in which people might see us, like, as sexual objects and the ways in which, like, we might be watched having sex. Even even if, like, we're not really being filmed.

对，对。还有当时无处不在的性爱录像带。

Right. Right. And sex tapes too, which were everywhere at that time.

是的。你在书中谈到

Yeah. And you talk in the

书中稍微谈到，比如，偷窥癖是如何无处不在的，就像所有这些音乐视频中都有体现。当你开始列举它们时，我简直惊呆了，太真实了。我记得1999年或98年有一个特别生动的例子，就是詹妮弗·洛佩兹的《If You Had My Love》。嗯。整个前提就像是有人在偷拍她，用一种奇怪的方式，我不知道怎么形容。

book a little bit about, like, how voyeurism and how showed up all over the place, like, in all of these music videos. When you started listing them, I was like, oh my god. It's so real. And one from 1999 or maybe '98 that I remember so vividly is, Jennifer Lopez's if you had my love Mhmm. Where the whole premise is like someone's videotaping her, like, in a in a weird how I don't know.

是的。

Yeah.

不。那个音乐视频真的，当我看到它时，我惊呆了。因为它似乎预测了太多东西。在某种程度上，它甚至预测了OnlyFans的出现。是的。

No. That music video is really when when I watched it, I was like, oh my god. Because it seemed to predict so much. It seemed to predict, like, OnlyFans in a way. Yes.

它还预测了真人秀电视，因为我觉得那个视频大概在《幸存者》决赛被5000万人观看的前一年推出。但它似乎非常预见到了这种新媒体景观，我们可以随时观看我们的名人，甚至可以与他们互动，在某种程度上甚至可以付钱让他们做事。在很多方面，这都是一个非常有先见之明的视频。

It also predicted reality television because I think that that video came out like a year before the Survivor finale was watched by 50,000,000 people. But it very much seemed to anticipate like this new media landscape where we could watch our celebrities all the time. We could even interact with them. We could sort of, in some ways, pay them to do things. It was this very very prescient video in lots of ways.

但我觉得这个时期关于性表演最让我震惊的是，这一切都是为了男性。全都是为了满足男性的快感、男性的欲望、男性的愉悦。其中有太多元素，我认为真的让我们疏远了一个问题：我们作为女性想要什么，我们渴望什么。因为那些都不重要。一切都只是表演。

But I think the thing that struck me so much about the performance of sex during this era was it was all for men. It was all serving male gratification, male desire, male pleasure. And there was so much of this element of it that I think really alienated us from the question of what we as women wanted, what we desired. Because none of that mattered. It was all about performance.

一切都停留在表面层面，比如看起来要正确，动作要正确，跳舞要正确。我认为这完全脱离了性真正应该为何而存在的问题。

It was all about surface level, like looking the right way and doing the right moves and dancing the right way. And it was just very, I think, divorced from the question of what what sex should actually be for.

当你观看这个时期的媒体时，很容易就能看出男性凝视，就像那句经典的话：男人观看，而女人观看自己被观看。是的。简直无处不在。但我不认为，理论上你能理解‘哦，它是这样运作的’，但不一定能应对，比如当这种情况发生时，你始终将自己理解为那种凝视的对象，你总是在为它表演，而不是去理解‘我喜欢什么？’对吧？

It's so easy to teach the male gaze when you're looking at media from this period and like that the classic phrase that, like, men watch and women watch themselves being watched. Yeah. Like, it's just all over the place. But I don't think that, like, you can theoretically understand, oh, this is how it works, but not necessarily grapple with, like, if you when that happens, you understand yourself as a subject of that gaze at all times, and you're always performing for it instead of understanding, like, what do I like? Right?

我喜欢看起来怎么样？我喜欢穿成什么样？我觉得我们这个年龄段的很多女性现在都在努力想明白这个问题。对吧？就像是，要放下一些那些常规标准。

What do I like looking like? What do I like dressing like? And I think a lot of women around our age are currently grappling with figuring that out. Right? Like, letting go of some of those norms.

尽管我们已经内化了这些标准二十年，但它们并没有消失。

Even though it's been twenty years since we've internalized them, they don't go away.

百分百同意。甚至还有，比如，我在性爱中真正享受什么的问题。以前总有这种焦虑，比如，如果我不这样做会怎样？或者如果我不这样做来取悦他呢？或者比如，他会不会对这个有看法？

A 100%. Or even, like, the question of what do I actually enjoy during sex. There was all this anxiety about, like, what if I don't do this? Or what if I don't, like, please him by doing this? Or like, what if like he thinks this about this?

而且，其中很少真正关注的是，我想要什么？我需要什么？什么能让我兴奋？我觉得那几乎是一种非常疏离的状态。

Or and and it so little of it was actually like, what do I want? What do I need? What what turns me on? It was just this very kind of dis almost disassociation, I think.

是的。是的。没错。不。而且我甚至想到，那些Cosmo杂志封面上总是写着，如何取悦你的男人。

Yes. Yes. Yeah. No. And even like I think about those what was always on the cover of Cosmo was always about like, how to please your man.

八个技巧做这个。它不像是在说，如何在你自己的身体里探索这个，比如如何尝试，比如你到底喜欢什么样的男人？类似这样的问题。

Eight tips for this. Like, it wasn't like, how to figure out this in your own body, like, how to experiment, like, where who do do you even like dudes? Like, those sorts of questions.

是的。不。百分百同意。那是一个如此性化的环境，但其中没有一样真正关乎愉悦。我认为那肯定不是为了女性。

Yeah. No. A 100%. It was it was like such a sexualized environment, but none of it was really about pleasure. I think it was certainly not for women.

对我来说很有趣的是，在后面的章节中，当我看到像《女孩》这样的电视剧时，它如何以我那时无法理解的有趣方式处理各种张力。

And it was interesting to me when in the later chapters where I was able to see like something like the TV show Girls, how much it was grappling with tension in interesting ways that I hadn't been able to process at the time.

没错。我认为人们有时对那部剧感到困扰的部分原因是它展现了一种更加黑暗的现实。对吧？

Right. And like putting, I think part of the reason people were sometimes troubled by that show is that it showed a much darker reality of what happens. Right?

是的。我

Yeah. I

天哪，我现在才想起来。那时我还没有开始为互联网公开写作，只是在博客上写写。我写过关于《女孩》和其他几部剧的文章，把它们归类为后女性主义反乌托邦题材，这些剧集都在描绘真正实践后女性主义意味着什么。

I gosh, I'm just remembering this now. At that time, I was not yet writing publicly like for the internet yet. I was just kind of blogging. I wrote about girls and a couple other shows under this rubric of like post feminist dystopia, where all of these shows are depicting what it means to actually like live out post feminism.

完全正确。它确实就是这样。

That's exactly right. That's like exactly what it does.

它不像《欲望都市》那样光鲜亮丽，这些剧更像是，哦，是啊，这太糟糕了。

That it is it unlike sex in the city where it's like, it's glamorous, these shows were like, oh. Yeah. This sucks.

纽约太可怕了。比如，你可能会吃掉掉在地上的披萨，而这个男人可能在性爱时试图开玩笑。但我也认为，另一个做得非常好的例子是《伦敦生活》，因为她知道自己本该是那种穿着内衣经营公司的女强人，但她就是不喜欢，这完全不适合她。我觉得她在后女性主义的种种要求中挣扎得很厉害。

New York is horrifying. Like, you might eat the pizza pizza that's been on the ground, and this guy will probably try to joke you during sex. Yeah. But I also think, like, another example of the shows that do that really well is Fleabag because she knows she's supposed to be this, like, lingerie wearing girl boss running a corporation, but she just she does not like, it does not fit her at all. And I think she struggles so much with, like, the mandates of post feminism.

好的。我们要聊一个我很喜欢的话题，那就是酷女孩。下一个问题来自马林。

Okay. We're gonna talk about something I love to talk about, which is the cool girl. This next question comes from Marin.

让我印象深刻的画面是《霹雳娇娃》开头卡梅隆·迪亚兹戴着牙套穿着内衣跳舞的场景。她既性感又接地气，她性感的同时还会在采访中谈论放屁。作为一个22岁时在TRL大楼工作过的人，我当时觉得成功的女性主义就是能承受这些，还能穿着胸罩和衬衫。我们该如何告诉年轻时的自己，当初忍受了那么多恶心男人的糟蹋还假装能应付？

The image that sticks with me is Cameron Diaz dancing in her underwear and headgear at the beginning of Charlie's Angels. She was hot, but relatable. She was hot and talked about farting in interviews. As someone who worked in the TRL Building at 22 years old, I felt successful feminism was being able to take it and wear bras and shirts. How do we speak to our younger selves who took so much shit from gross men and pretended we could handle it?

是啊。是啊。其实我今天早上刚重读了您关于詹妮弗·劳伦斯和酷女孩的那篇文章。真是趟不错的回忆之旅。

Yeah. Yeah. I just reread your piece on Jennifer Lawrence and the cool girl this morning, actually. Was really a good trip down memory lane.

我知道。嗯，感觉那已经是十年前的事了。

And I know. Well, and it's like that was a decade ago.

嗯。

Mhmm.

而且，想想詹妮弗·劳伦斯，她成了酷女孩的典型代表，但现在事业确实不太行了。卡梅隆·迪亚兹也不再活跃于聚光灯下。就像，那种套路当然会有新的酷女孩出现。但我确实认为，那种对性感女性气质的理解非常具有2010年代初期到中期的特色。

And, you know, thinking about Jennifer Lawrence who became the the the kind of the, the apotheosis of the cool girl, who now really doesn't have much of a career. Cameron Diaz also not in the spotlight. Like, that that trope there are new cool girls, of course. But, like, I do think that that understanding of hot femininity was very much of the odds and and early to mid two thousand tens.

是的。

Yeah.

你觉得那里发生了什么？

What do you think is going on there?

我的意思是，再次说明，我认为这反映了媒体在二月最重要的事情是满足男性的欲望，而每个人都内化了这一点。是的。是的。是的。而且我觉得有趣的是，《消失的爱人》中关于酷女孩的演讲——或者不是演讲而是叙述，那段独白——我记得《消失的爱人》大概是2012年出版的。

I mean, again, I think it speaks to the same impulse of the most important thing in media in the February being gratifying what men want and everyone internalizing that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And it was interesting to me that the Gone Girl speech about cool girls or the not speech but the narrative, the monologue that I think Gone Girl was published in 2012, maybe.

是的。所以这感觉很像是在这十年的尾声出现的，这十年充满了深刻的厌女症，但同时也有媒体中女性内化的厌女情绪。比如，我记得我2007年2月搬到纽约去上新闻学院。我有一个在金融行业工作的表亲，他会带所有客户去脱衣舞俱乐部，我也会跟着去，当时觉得这只是个很酷很有趣的时光。在某种程度上确实如此，但那时候人们就是这么做的。

Yeah. So it seemed very much like it was coming at the end of this decade of, like, real profound misogyny, but also, like, internalized misogyny among women in media. Like, I remember I moved to New York to go to journalism school in 02/2007. I had this cousin who was working in finance who would, like, go out with all his clients to strip clubs and I would go along and I would, you know, think it was just a cool fun time. And in some ways, was, but but it was just also very much the thing that people did then.

我从未想过要说，不，我不想那样做。对吧。我们就不能去个酒吧吗？

And it never occurred to me to be like, no, I don't wanna do that. Right. Can we just go to a bar?

是的。而且我觉得，你引用了那篇关于《BJ单身日记》的评论。评论者描述的整体氛围是，试图表现得非常独立，同时又试图满足所有男性的期望。

Yeah. And I think, you know, you quote this review of Bridget Jones. The reviewer describes the general vibe as, like, trying to be incredibly independent while also trying to be all things to all men.

是的，百分之百同意。

Yeah. A 100%.

对我来说，那也正是酷女孩本质的核心。

And that to me, like, that's, like, at the heart of cool girlness too.

是的。真的在努力尝试，同时又如此疏离于自己真正想要或享受的事物，以至于你会说，不，我很乐意吃10根Slim Jims肉条，和你一起看五个小时的棒球赛。听起来很棒。就像这样。

Yeah. Just really trying and again, being so alienated from the idea of what you might actually want or enjoy that you can be like, no. I would love to eat 10 Slim Jims and watch, like, five hours of baseball with you. That sounds great. Like yeah.

这几乎就是在刻意迎合男性想要的理想形象，我甚至不确定这是否真实。这只是媒体传播的一种观念。

It's it's just like this real pandering almost to the idea of what men want, which I don't even know if it is authentic even. It was just this, like, idea disseminated across media.

而且，这实际上抹杀了为实现女性理想所付出的真实努力。这种不可思议的矛盾：总是在消费，

And also, like, this this real erasure of the actual work to achieve feminine ideals. This incredible impossible contradiction of always consuming

嗯。

Mhmm.

但看起来却像从不消费。

But looking like you never consume.

是的。希拉里·曼特尔有一段话，我在书中引用过，关于二月份女性理想身材的描述：拥有巨大的胸部、极细的腰、完美的臀部且没有阴毛。这在很多方面都是一种孩子气的形象，有着不自然的、夸张的胸部。这并非天生，而是必须通过购买获得。是的。

Yeah. Hilary Mantel had a quote that I used in the book about the ideal physique of womanhood in the February being someone with like very large breasts, a very tiny waist, like a perfect buttocks and no pubic hair. And it's it's very much this sort of childlike figure in lots of ways with, like, inflated breasts that that is not authentic in nature. Like, it has to be purchased. Yeah.

而购买行为，也是媒体中反复出现的主题。但我最近在想一件事，因为我这个项目的一部分是思考为什么我当时无法反抗，或者为什么我没有在那个十年里更多地抗议，甚至为什么我根本没想过要这样做。我想到了凯瑟琳·海格尔的遭遇，她在接受《名利场》采访时非常温和地批评了电影《一夜大肚》有点性别歧视，我认为这已经很客气了，比我现在对它的批评要温和得多。但她却因此受到了猛烈抨击。

And the purchasing of, like, was so much of a theme throughout media too. But the there was something I was thinking about recently because part of the project for me was was thinking about why I couldn't fight back or, like, why I didn't protest more during this decade or why I didn't it didn't even occur to me to. And I think I was thinking about the response to Katherine Heigl when she gave a Vanity Fair interview in which she very lightly critiqued Knocked Up, the movie for being a little bit sexist, which I think is very gentle. It's certainly more gentle than the critic I would give Knocked Up at this point. But she was pilloried for it.

她被导演贾德·阿帕图、主演塞斯·罗根猛烈抨击。他们似乎将她非常温和的批评视为某种巨大的背叛，像是违背了他们在电影拍摄中建立的某种兄弟情谊准则之类的。看起来她的职业生涯就因为这点轻微的批评而受到了影响。我认为类似的事情在那个十年里屡见不鲜。他们一再向我们表明，在很多情况下，抗议根本不值得。

She was torn apart by the director, Judd Apatow, by the star, Seth Rogen. They seem to see her, again, very light critic as being some huge betrayal of the code of, I don't know, like brotherhood that they had all established on the movie or something. It it just it seemed like her career suffered as a result of this very mild criticism. And I I think things like that happened all the time throughout the decade. They made it clear to us, I think, over and over again that in many cases, it was just not worth protesting.

就像，代价会太大。

Like, the ghost would be too great.

没错。她变成了一个难搞的女人。不。而且我也记得，她几乎变得以泼妇的形象而闻名，对吧？

Right. She became a difficult woman. No. And I remember too, like, there was something she really became known as almost like a shrew. Right?

是的。而且这也是她在她大部分电影里扮演的角色类型。所以，我的意思是，她被这样定型确实对她没什么帮助。

Yeah. Which was also the character that she was playing, I think, in most of her movies. So I mean, it doesn't really help that that was how she was typecast.

没错。这在某种程度上成了她的明星形象。安妮·海瑟薇也有类似的困境，对吧？因为她并不是在抱怨，但她太认真了。

Right. It became her star image in a way. And like, there there's difficulty with Anne Hathaway too. Right? Because she she wasn't complaining, but she was, like, too earnest.

她不是那种...而且她总是被拿来比较，尤其是在那个时候，经常被拿来和詹妮弗·劳伦斯对比，说她太努力了，她想要的太多了。

She wasn't, like and she was always held up against especially at this time against Jennifer Lawrence as, she's trying too hard. She wants things too much.

是的。

Yeah.

而酷女孩得到了东西却不想要它们。

Whereas the cool girl gets things but doesn't want them.

或者看起来不想要，或者看起来没在努力。是的。没错。太累了。

Or doesn't look like she wants them or doesn't look like she's trying. Yeah. Yes. Exhausting.

我知道。好吧。我们来聊聊男人。下一个问题来自苏珊，梅洛迪会读出来。

I know. Okay. Let's talk about dudes. This next question comes from Susan, and Melody's gonna read it.

是我的错觉吗？还是说00年代中后期的喜剧和浪漫喜剧男性文化尤其有毒？我能想到的每部电影——《婚礼傲客》、《他其实没那么喜欢你》、《分手男女》、《非亲兄弟》、《宿醉》系列、所有马修·麦康纳的电影、阿帕图入侵——全都是关于不成熟的男人和‘男孩就是男孩’的叙事，而女性角色不仅被期望容忍和迁就，还要欣赏这种行为。虽然我们事后评判了八九十年代电影中的糟糕行为，但考虑到00年代更近，我认为它们实际上更糟。

Is it just me or was comedy and rom com male culture especially toxic in the mid to late odds? Every movie I can think of, wedding crashers, he's just not that into you, the breakup, stepbrothers, the hangover movies, all of those Matthew McConaughey movies, The Apatow Invasion. They are all about immature men and the boys will be boys narrative that the female counterparts were expected to not only tolerate and work around, but appreciate. While we have retroactively judged the movies of the eighties and nineties for terrible behavior, I think the odds are technically worse given how recent they were.

好的。那么你怎么看待这种与90年代和2月（注：可能指特定事件或时期）女性气质和女权主义相反的现象？

Alright. So how do you think of this sort of like the inverse of what's happening with femininity and feminism in the the nineties and and February?

天啊。00年代糟糕多了。真的太……

Oh god. The odds were so much worse. Like so so

太糟糕了。是的。

much were. Worse. Yeah.

因为你经历了那种真正意义上的死亡，一种曾认真对待女性、将她们视为值得愉悦和满足的电影形式的漫长而持久的消亡，那就是浪漫喜剧。浪漫喜剧经历了这种漫长而缓慢的死亡。但我在书中有一章专门讨论这个问题，我认为可以追溯到1999年的《美国派》。这部电影取得了巨大成功，讲述的是所谓的青少年性喜剧——现在听起来这个类型名称很可疑——但它以青少年性喜剧（暂且这么称呼）的形式复兴，并引发了一波更糟糕的模仿浪潮，一部比一部差。如果你一部部电影看下来，真的能发现电影中呈现了男性延长的青春期。

Because you had like really the death, the long protracted death of the one form of movies that had taken women seriously and treated them as worthy of pleasure and gratification, which was the rom com. You had this long, slow death of the rom com. But I have a chapter about this in the book and I I sort of trace it back, I think, to American Pie in 1999. And there's, like, huge success of this movie about, like, the I think they call it the teen sex comedy, which sounds so dubious to me now as a genre, but how it revived the teen sex comedy for want of a better term and created this wave of imitators that was so much worse, each one worse and worse. And I think if you think sort of movie by movie, you can really see this extended period of adolescence for men being presented throughout film.

这种观念认为，青少年时期不必在18岁结束，它可以延续到20岁、25岁甚至30岁——如果你真的很难熬的话。这完全是对幼稚男性情谊、兄弟冒险的颂扬，同时也强化了性行为和失去童贞是男性成年的标志，是一种英雄式的成人仪式，将男性尊奉为真正的男人。是的，《美国派》确实有一些非常丑陋的模仿作品。

The idea that teenagehood is not something now that needs to end at 18. It can go on until 20 or 25 or even 30, like if you're having a really hard time. It's just this celebration of really juvenile male bonding, fraternal adventures and also the real cementing of sex and the loss of virginity is the thing that secures adulthood for men, this kind of heroic rite of passage that that enshrines men as men. And yeah. There were some really ugly imitators of American Pie.

我最讨厌的一部叫《约会电影》。不知道你看过没有。是的，艾莉森·汉尼根——显然来自《美国派》系列和《吸血鬼猎人巴菲》——出演了这部我一生中见过的最肥胖恐惧症的电影。她扮演一个类似布里奇特·琼斯的角色，在电影开头被描绘成重达389磅。

I think the one the one that I hate the most is called Date Movie. I don't know if you've seen it. Yes. Allison Hannigan from obviously the American Pie franchise from Buffy plays it's the most fatphobic movie I've ever seen in my life. She plays a sort of Bridget Jones knock off who in the movie is depicted I think as being three hundred and eighty nine pounds in the beginning.

她穿着增肥服。整个第一幕的笑点就在于她因为肥胖而令人作呕。她在街上跳舞，非常快乐，我想她跳的是凯莉莎的《Milkshake》。

She wears a fat suit. And the whole joke of the entire first scene is that she is disgusting because she is fat. She dances down the street. She's very joyful. I think she's dancing to like Khaleesa's milkshake.

从很多方面看，这本来是个很有趣的场景。但人们对她的舞蹈场面感到极度恶心，比如一个建筑工人在她对他露出身体后，用射钉枪自杀。这真是丑陋至极，体现了当时许多这类电影中存在的对女性的厌恶和憎恨。想想《惊声尖笑》中的场景，安娜·法瑞丝的角色在和一个男人发生关系前，对方不得不用树篱修剪器处理她的阴毛。天啊。

It's this really fun scene in lots of ways. But people are so disgusted by the spectacle of her dancing, like one construction worker after she flashes him, shoots himself in the head with a nail gun. Like, it's this real ugly, ugly expression of misogyny and and disgust towards women that was present in so many of those movies. Like, thinking about the scary movie scene where Anna Faris' character before this guy can have sex with her, he has to, like, get a hedge trimmer to get rid of her pubic hair. Oh my god.

真是太糟糕了。对女性有太多的厌恶。首先，女性角色出现得很少。当她们出现时，要么被极度性物化，要么是爱训斥的人或泼妇。你知道，就像在问‘你为什么去拉斯维加斯不带我？’

It's just it's so bad. There was just so much disgust for women. Women, first of all, weren't around very much. When they were, they were very hypersexualized as as objects or they were scolds or they were shrews. You know, they were like, why are you going to Las Vegas without me?

就像这样。

Like.

对，对，不。而且这很有趣，就视角而言，它不是男性对身体的凝视，而更像是针对女性行为的审视。所以女性看着自己表现得像个泼妇，然后内化了一种令人反感的行为方式。

Right. Right. No. And this is like, it's interesting too in terms of like, instead of the male gaze on the body, it's more like on female behavior. So women watch themselves being shrews and then, like, internalize a way of behavior that is repulsive.

是的。还有，就是这种令人难以置信的厌女症，那种针对其他女性的内化厌女情绪。没错。还有容忍度也是，哦，如果男人就是这样，那么理想的女人就必须是能容忍那种男人的女人。

Yeah. And also, like, just this incredible misogyny, like, internalized misogyny towards other women. Yeah. And the tolerance too, like, that, oh, if this is how men are, then, like, the ideal woman has to be a woman who tolerates that sort of man.

是的。在这些电影里，她总是如此。总是有这种邋遢、或不成功、或毫无魅力的男主角，被一个远比他优秀的女人的爱所拯救。这基本上是两千年代每部电影的核心套路。而且我认为这是一个非常顽固的观念。

Yeah. And in these movies, she always is. Like, there's always this kind of schlubby or, like, unsuccessful or, like, really unprepossessing hero who is redeemed by the love of a woman who is way out of his league. That is the thing throughout every basically every movie in the two thousands. And and it really I think it was a really sticky idea.

这个观念真的很有传染性。那种认为所有男人都需要成长为他们最好的自己，而方法就是得到一个非常火辣的女人的爱。

It was really contagious. The idea that like all men needed to grow up to become the best versions of themselves was the love of a really hot woman.

那部电影叫什么，哦，《全民追女王》，查理兹·塞隆和塞斯·罗根演的，我其实觉得它几乎是对那个套路的救赎，因为塞斯·罗根演的是个好人。

What's that movie oh, Long Shot with Charlize Theron and Seth Rogen, which I actually think is like this almost like a redemption of that trope because Seth Rogen is a good guy.

是的。还有塞斯·罗根，最近在演播室看到他真是太有趣了，因为我觉得他正在演绎他生涯中最好的作品，就扮演一个普通的好人，有点年纪，穿着得体，而不是那种不成熟的傻瓜。但有一部塞斯·罗根和安娜·法瑞丝的电影，我记不起名字了。但有一个场景，我想是2012年左右的。

Yeah. It's also like Seth Rogen, it's been so funny to see him in the studio lately because I think he's actually doing the best work of his life playing just like a normal nice guy who's kind of old and dressed as well and isn't this, like, immature idiot. But there was a Seth Rogen movie with Anna Faris. I can't remember the name. But there was a scene I think it was from 02/2012, maybe.

有一个场景是他的角色在和安娜·法瑞丝的角色发生关系，而她已经醉得不省人事。在某个时刻，这个场景，我认为本意是想通过他因为她不省人事而停下来，以及她短暂醒来责备他停下来这一点来挽回局面。但在我看来，这很明显是一个被当作喜剧来演的强奸场景。没错。这就是当时，我认为，很多二月档电影的氛围。还有一件我觉得有趣的事是托德·菲利普斯在那十年的职业生涯，因为他最初是写了《重返校园》，然后继续拍了《宿醉》系列，后来又写了《小丑》，这部电影受到了极其热烈的评论回应，是一部非常有趣的电影，但其中也贯穿着一种深刻的‘非自愿独身者’意识形态，如果你回头看，你能在他早期的喜剧中找到这种元素的蛛丝马迹。

There was a scene in which his character is having sex with Anna Faris' character while she is blacked out. And at some point, the scene is, I think, supposed to be redeemed by the fact that he stops because she's blacked out and she briefly wakes up to chide him for stopping. But it's it's like to me, it's quite clearly now a rape scene that was played for comedy and it's Right. It's it's this was just kind of the the vibe, I think, of a lot of movies in the February. And it one thing that was interesting to me too is like the career of Todd Phillips throughout the decade because he started, I think, by writing Old School and then went on to obviously do the Hangover franchise and then wrote Joker which was extremely critically, favorably responded to and a very interesting movie but also has this real profound kind of incel ideology throughout it that if you look back, you can sort of find elements of in in his earlier comedies.

对，对。我的意思是，那就像我们对两千年代男性气质的某种描述，就像是那种反乌托邦。对吧？不是后女权主义的反乌托邦，而是两千年代哥们式的反乌托邦。

Right. Right. It's I mean, that's like our whatever word we have for the masculinity of the two thousands, like that's the that dystopia. Right? Instead of the post feminist dystopia, it's like the two thousands dude dystopia.

本集节目由Zocdoc赞助。你有没有去过牙医那里，他们对你口腔里的任何问题都显得很刻薄？你会觉得，去看牙医就像是一种惩罚。我能告诉你其实不必这样吗？原因有很多，但其中之一是你可以不再去你那家牙医了，你可以克服那种‘但我还得找另一个牙医’的障碍。

Today's episode is sponsored by Zocdoc. Have you ever gone to the dentist and they're just like mean about whatever thing is going on in your mouth? You're like, it feels like punishment to go to the dentist. Can I just tell you it doesn't have to be that way? For many reasons, But one is that you cannot go to your dentist anymore and you can get over that roadblock of being like, but then I have to find another dentist.

最简单的方法之一就是使用ZocDoc。你不再需要将就，就能找到合适的医疗从业者，无论是牙医、医生还是专科医生，什么都行。Zocdoc是一个免费的应用程序和网站，你可以搜索和比较网络内的高质量医生，并点击即时预约。我们谈论的是预约网络内超过10万名医生的服务，涵盖从心理健康到口腔健康的各个专业。

One of the easiest ways you can do that is by using ZocDoc. You don't have to settle anymore to find the right medical practitioner, whether that's a dentist or a doctor or a specialist, whatever. ZocDoc is a free app and website where you can search and compare high quality in network doctors and click to instantly book an appointment. We're talking about booking in network appointments with more than 100,000 doctors across every specialty from mental health to dental health. So that's how you can find another dentist, one that you actually like and respects you, primary care to urgent care, and more.

你可以筛选接受你保险的医生、牙医，他们地理位置便利，适合你的任何医疗需求，并且受到已验证患者的高度评价。一旦找到合适的医生或牙医，你可以看到他们实际的预约空档，选择适合你的时间段，点击即时预约就诊。通过Zocdoc进行的预约通常很快，通常在预订后24到72小时内就能完成。你甚至可以获得当天预约。所以，别再推迟那些医生预约，或者别再拖延找新牙医或只是找时间去看你现在的牙医，请访问zocdoc.com/culture，今天就能找到并即时预约一位顶级评价的医生或牙医。

You can filter for doctors who take your insurance, dentists who take your insurance as well, are located nearby, are a good fit for any medical needs you may have, and are highly rated by verified patients. Once you find the right doctor or dentist, you can see their actual appointment openings, choose a time slot that works for you, and click to instantly book a visit. Appointments made through ZocDoc also happen fast, typically within just twenty four to seventy two hours of booking. You can even score same day appointments. So stop putting off those doctor's appointments or stop putting off finding a new dentist or just finding a time to go see your current dentist and go to zocdoc.com/culture to find and instantly book a top rated doctor or dentist today.

那是zocdoc.com/culture。Zocdoc.com/culture。好的。下一个问题来自Erin。大转弯。

That's z0cd0c.com/culture. Zocdoc.com/culture. Okay. Next question comes from Erin. Big pivot.

作为一名两千年代初未出柜的酷儿女孩，我至今仍被——作为一个在自由但社会保守的城市长大的人——流行文化、政治或意识形态中酷儿女性的完全匮乏所震撼。这种缺失，加上那个时代对酷儿男性非常可怕且高声的同性恋恐惧，当我回顾时，觉得这是一种奇怪的组合。这只是我的经历，还是有一个酷儿女性文化的秘密场所我错过了，因为我甚至不知道从哪里开始寻找？

As a closeted queer girl in the early two thousands, I'm still struck by the what seemed to me as someone growing up in a liberal yet also socially conservative city, the total dearth of queer women in pop culture, politics, or ideology. This absence along with the era's really horrible and very vocal homophobia against queer men is such a strange combination when I look back on it. Was this just my experience, or was there a secret place for queer women's culture I was missing out on because I didn't even know where to start looking?

是的。这对我来说是个挣扎，因为我不想让我的书像最终那样显得如此异性恋规范，但在这个时期，女性的酷儿文化确实没有任何可见度。我……我有点……当我……我一直在思考这个问题。我的意思是，显然，《拉字至上》是对的。那是唯一一部处理女同性恋题材的剧集。

Yeah. This was a struggle for me because I did not want my book to be as heteronormative as it ended up being, but there just was not there was not really any visibility for for queer culture during this period for women. It was I I've sort of I went when I I've been thinking about about this a lot. I mean, obviously, The L Word was Right. The one show that was dealing with lesbianism.

我认为你在《吸血鬼猎人巴菲》中塑造的薇洛和泰拉的故事线处理得相当不错，相比某些作品来说。

You had, I think, the Willow and Tara arc on Buffy, which was quite well done, I think, compared with some some of the products

在九十年代，我在某些方面的曝光度更高。

I was more visibility in some ways in the nineties.

是的。

Yeah.

其中部分原因还在于莉莉丝音乐节相关女性艺人的突出地位和公众影响力，比如凯蒂·兰登登上了《娱乐周刊》创刊号封面，梅丽莎·埃瑟里奇无处不在。但同时也存在一种后女权主义的观念：如果你喜欢这些艺术家，那你就是女同性恋。对吧？

And part of that too was the prominence and, like, public presence of Lilith Fair oriented women just broadly or like, I don't know, like Katie Lang was on the cover of Entertainment Weekly, the very first issue of of Entertainment Weekly, like Melissa Etheridge was everywhere. Yeah. And but then also there was this real, like, this was part post feminism was this idea that like, oh, you like those artists? Then you're a lesbian. Right?

就像是用这种方式来规训任何不符合传统异性恋规范的女性行为。

Like, using it as a a way of disciplining women for any sort of, like, different way of being that wasn't smoothly hetero in some way.

没错。但同时也存在将女同性恋情色化供男性凝视的现象。比如蒂拉·特基拉的《爱的冲击》节目中，她本是个直女却要表演双性恋——我记得是MTV或VH1的真人秀，需要同时与男女接吻。不过书中音乐章节最让我震撼的转变，是从莉莉丝音乐节那种展现女性集体力量与创作潜能的能量。

Yeah. But then also reclaiming lesbianism for men, like for the male gaze to turn men. Like I'm thinking about Shot of Love with Tila Tequila where she had to perform like, she was a straight woman, but she had to perform being bisexual for this v eight like, I think it was MTV or v h one. Anyway, one one of the shows reality show in which she was supposed to be making out with men and women. And also, but yes, the shift that really struck me in in the music chapter of the book was the shift from the energy of Lilith Fair and the collective force and the creative potential of showcasing other women and working together.

转向t.A.T.u.组合——两个俄罗斯少女（顺便说下都是直女）在铁丝网后接吻，被老男人窥视。这个组合是由一个有色情瘾的俄罗斯心理学家打造的，所以某种程度上很合理。但女性间情感与性表达从莉莉丝音乐节到t.A.T.u.的转变，真的极具启示性。

The shift from that to tattoo where suddenly you have two Russian teenagers who also by both by the way straight making out behind a wire fence while, like, these old creepy men watch watch them. I mean, Tattoo the Band, I think, was was manufactured by a Russian psychologist who had a porn addiction. So it in some ways makes a lot of sense. But, like, the sort of shift in terms of women loving women and and sexuality, the shift from, like, Lilith Fair to Tattoo was was just so instructive to me.

或者像凯蒂·佩里也是，对吧？比如那首《我吻了一个女孩》，就是那种非常直白的表达方式，像是‘我就是要这样，我喜欢这样。希望我男朋友别介意’的感觉。

Or, like, Katy Perry too. Right? And, like, I kissed a girl, which is like Yeah. Just so overt in the way that it wields that, like like, I'm gonna I I liked it. I hope my boyfriend don't mind in it.

因为我们正在做凯蒂·佩里的专题节目，希望能深入探讨一些这类内容。不过确实如此。

Like, we're doing a Katy Perry episode, so hopefully we'll unpack some of that stuff. But yeah.

但就可见性和代表性而言，我记得当时在想《橘子郡男孩》。你还记得玛莉莎·库珀与奥利维亚·王尔德饰演的亚历克斯有段恋情的剧情线吗？

But in terms of visibility and representation, I remembered I was thinking about The OC. Do you remember the arc where Marissa Cooper had an affair with Alex who was played by Olivia Wilde?

奥利维亚·王尔德。

Olivia Wilde.

对，对。这应该是奥利维亚·王尔德最早的电视演出之一。我后来找到乔什·施瓦茨的访谈，他说当时拼命想加更多她们接吻的镜头，但福克斯电视台完全不允许，因为在珍妮·杰克逊超级碗‘衣橱故障’事件后，媒体环境变得非常保守。突然所有人都对保守派可能对媒体中某些内容的反应变得非常谨慎。

Yeah. Yeah. Like, I think Olivia Wilde's first one of her first TV appearances. And I went back and I found this interview with Josh Schwartz where he was desperate to have more scenes of them kissing, but Fox would not let him have any because it was such a conservative media environment after Janet Jackson, the Super Bowl, Nickel Gate. I think suddenly everyone was very skittish about what the conservative response would be to certain kinds of things in media.

所以他写了一集剧本，我记得里面安排了大概十几场接吻戏，明知道会被删掉十一场，但至少能保留一场。不过话说回来，这也不是最真实的刻画——而且女性相爱的设定也...

And so he he wrote an episode, I think, where he had, like, a dozen scenes of them kissing knowing that 11 of them would get taken out and could just at least keep one. But again, I mean, not not the most authentic portrayal Well, also women being attracted

彼此吸引。以及对酷儿女性的理解总是带着某种同质化印象，比如必须非常女性化，要足够性感让男性觉得迷人，然后当她们喜欢女性时才会让人惊讶，你知道的，就像...

to each And an understanding of, like, queer women as always being like homonormative in some way, like always being very femme, like you still have to be hot enough for guys to think that you're hot and then for it to be a surprise when you like ladies, you know, like

对。对。对。今天早些时候我还读到一个非常有趣的帖子，讲的是林赛·罗韩与萨曼莎·罗森在这段时期的关系，我觉得媒体将其大肆渲染为她堕落的一部分，对吧？

Right. Right. Right. There was this really interesting thread too that I was reading about earlier today about how Lindsay Lohan's relationship with Samantha Ronson during this period was portrayed, I think, in media so much as, like, part of her downfall. Right?

那感觉不像她爱上了一个女人或与女人约会或拥有真挚感情。这更像是她坏女孩人设的一部分，我认为当时电视剧和电影对待酷儿浪漫和酷儿爱情的方式也是如此，将其视为她堕落的一部分。

It wasn't like she was in love with a woman or dating a woman or having genuine feelings. It was very much like part of her bad girl arc, which I think was how, like, TV shows and and movies treated treated, like, queer romance and queer love during during this time as well, like part of her downfall.

所以我想我们要告诉艾琳的是，不，你并没有错过任何东西。

So I guess what we tell Erin is that, like, no, you weren't missing out on missing anything.

当时外面什么都没有。情况非常糟糕。

It was there was nothing out there. It was super slammed.

我们的下一个问题来自德纳里，它关于这种文化一个看似较轻的影响，但我认为实际上很大。等不及要讨论这个了。

Our next question comes from Denali, and it's about a seemingly lighter size effect of this culture, but I think it's actually huge. Can't wait to talk about this one.

所以我说了‘看似’。

That's why I said seemingly.

两千年代的时尚是如何让整整一代女性在服装方面对自己的身体基本部位都搞不清楚的？我有一个理论：在这个大致时间段成年的女性，包括我自己，根本不知道裤子该穿在身体的哪个位置。在我们的一生中，裤子的款式变化太大了，我花了很长时间才学会如何舒适地穿衣服，尽管这是我每天都必须做的事情。也许这只是我的个人感受，但我确实认为这可能是一个代际现象。我还觉得这与维多利亚的秘密文化的兴起有关，这家内衣店 glorify（推崇）了一个并不销售很广尺码范围的内衣品牌。

How did fashion in the two thousands prime an entire cohort of women to not really understand the basic parts of their bodies with regard to clothing? So I have this theory that women who came of age in this general time frame, including me, have no idea where on their bodies to wear their pants. There has just been so much pants fluctuation in our lifetime, and it took me a really long time to figure out how to comfortably wear clothes, even though it's something I have to do every day. Anyway, maybe it's just me, but I do think it could be generational. I also feel like there's a tie in about the rise of Victoria's Secret Culture and the glorification of a bra store that doesn't sell a very wide range of bra sizes.

是的。

Yeah.

我百分之百认同这个理论。我认为所有千禧一代女性都有低腰牛仔裤创伤。这就是为什么人们对低腰牛仔裤重返时尚界的反应如此强烈的原因之一。这不是年轻人回归某种时尚风格的问题，而是那种创伤的问题。

I ascribe to this theory 100%. I think all millennial women have, low rise jeans trauma. And that's part of the reason why the reaction to low rise jeans coming back into fashion is so incredibly strong. It's not about young people wearing like, returning to a type of fashion. It's about that trauma.

是的。我觉得零零年代的服装并不是我们现在所理解的那种服装。它不是关于遮盖了什么，也不是关于如何贴合女性身体曲线，而是关于如何在最大程度否认的情况下暴露身体，我认为是这样。

Yeah. I think clothing during the oughts was not clothing in the sense that we understand it to be now. It was not about what it covered. It was not about, like, how it fit the female body. It was about what it could expose with, like, maximum deniability, I think.

没错。就像鲸鱼尾那样，是的。就像你的丁字裤从低腰牛仔裤顶端露出来，哦，哎呀，那只是不小心露出来了。

Yes. Like Yes. Like, the whale tail, the Yeah. Like, your thong peeking out from the top of your low rise jeans, like, oh, oops. That's just showing.

对吧？

Right?

是的。或者像我记得穿过手帕上衣，就是那种用环扣系在背后的小三角形布料。是的，而且它们显然会经常掉下来。

Yeah. Or like, I remember wearing handkerchief tops, which were like these tiny triangles of fabric that you would tie at the back with a with a loop. And yeah. And they would obviously, like, fall down all the time.

它就是，它就是

It was it was just

那是一种服装时刻，不是指你现实生活中实际会穿的衣服，而是指那些你可以穿出门而不会被逮捕，但仍然尽可能多地暴露身体的衣物。

it was sort of a a moment of clothing not as garments that you actually might wear in real life, but as things that you could go out without getting arrested, but they would still expose as much of your body as possible.

是的。而且我认为，这教会了我们什么？什么样的衣服让你看起来性感？什么样的衣服让你看起来有吸引力？当你试图展现魅力时，你应该如何感受自己的身体？

Yeah. And I think that that like, what did that teach us about? What sort of clothing makes you look hot? What sort of clothing makes you look desirable? How you should feel in your body when you are attempting to look hot?

嗯哼。

Like Mhmm.

我们就这样正常化了那种一条布料勒进臀缝的感觉，好像那就是你应该一直保持的状态。我记得有人说过，你会习惯丁字裤的。不，然后，

The way that we, like, normalized a string of fabric going up your butt, like, that that is just how you should feel all the time. Like, it really like, I remember someone being like, you get used to the thong. No. And then,

永远不会。永远不会。也有人这么跟我说。

like Never. Never. And people tell me that too.

然后就一直穿着它。对吧？你就会想，哦，还是有内裤卡在臀缝里。它总是在那里。为什么？

And then just keep wearing it. Right? You're just like, oh, there's still just, like, underwear bunched in my butt crack. It's just there always. And why?

这样你就不会有内裤痕迹。对吧？这样你就有了一种光滑的错觉，我们认定内衣的痕迹应该以各种方式被抹除。

So that you don't have panty lines. Right? So that you have this illusion of smoothness that we decided that, like, I the appearance of underwear should somehow be effaced in all ways.

哦，更糟糕的是，人们可以看到你超低腰牛仔裤下面丁字裤的边缘，然后就会想，哦，她穿了丁字裤。

Oh, even worse so that people could see the top of your thong underneath your very low rise jeans and be like, oh, she's wearing a thong.

没错。没错。嗯，还有胸罩，我觉得你提到这一点非常好。那种认为胸罩就应该不舒服的观念。对吧？

Exactly. Exactly. Well, the bra too, I think that that's such a great point bringing that in. The idea that your bra should be uncomfortable. Right?

而且因为这些胸罩往往很不合身，好像你的胸部应该以某种方式从胸罩里溢出来似的。

And that also that because these bras often were so poorly fit, like, that your breasts should be overflowing the bra in some way.

嗯。是的。比如，我觉得神奇胸罩（Wonderbra）是一件非常有趣的服装，它永远改变了胸罩，因为它再次体现了这种后女权主义时刻——当人们轻轻批评像伊娃·赫尔佐格（Eva Herzog）那样的广告，那些巨大的广告牌据说因为她的胸部太大而导致交通事故。神奇胸罩的制造商却说，这是一件赋予力量的服装。女性穿神奇胸罩时会感到强大。

Mhmm. Yeah. Like, the the Wonder bra, I think, was a really interesting garment in terms of changing changing bras forever because it had it again was this post feminist moment where when people lightly critique the ads of like Eva Herzog over on these huge billboards that apparently caused like traffic accidents because her boobs were so big. The makers of Wonderbra were like, these are this is an empowering garment. Women feel powerful when they wear Wonderbras.

而我觉得，她们可能感到强大，但这并没有给任何地方的任何女性带来任何权力。就像，嗯，

And I'm like, they might feel powerful, but this is not giving any woman anywhere any power. Like, it's Well,

这触及了我们尚未明确讨论的一点。对吧？那就是，比如，拥有自己的性特质或拥有自己的性客体化，这是如何运作的？那和权力是一回事吗？种族又如何与之交织？

and this gets to something that we haven't talked about explicitly yet. Right? Is that, like, owning one's own sexuality or owning one's own sexual objectification, like, how does that work? Is that the same as power? How does race intersect with that?

因为这始终是复杂对话的一部分。对吧？就像，作为一名黑人女性，你从未掌控过自己的性特质或其表现形式，如果你能掌控自己如何表现它，那算是赋权吗？而我们这样的白人女性有权决定这一点吗？这对我来说是一个难以厘清的问题。

Because that's always been part of the complicated conversation. Right? It's like, as a black woman and you've never had control of your sexuality or how it has been represented, like if you get to own how you represent it, is that empowering? And do white women like us get to decide that? Like, that that's a difficult place for me to to figure out.

这确实是一种真实的张力。同时，也希望每位女性都能完全拥有穿着自由的掌控权，认识到这实际上是赋予女性选择权的关键部分——不像戛纳电影节那些人现在做的那样，规定女性应该穿什么才能在公共场合被接纳。我认为，随心所欲穿衣的自由非常重要。但对我来说，书中大部分内容并非指责个人或个别选择，而更多是识别模式，并试图理解这些模式在当下告诉我和我们什么。

It's a real tension for sure. And also, like, wanting every woman to have absolutely, like, the control to dress in any way that she wants and knowing that that is actually a crucial part of, like, allowing women the choice, like, not dictating as the people at the Cannes Film Festival are doing at the moment, what women should wear to be accepted in public. The freedom to dress any way you please, I think is really important. But also, so much of the book for me was not about indicting individual people or individual choices. It was more about identifying patterns and trying to figure out what those patterns were telling me and telling us at this time.

而在这个时期，我认为很多赋予力量的服装模式，其实是为了取悦男性。

And so much of the pattern of empowering garments, I think during this time was about pleasing men.

是的。我读了玛丽斯·克雷斯曼在她通讯中对你这本书的评论或介绍。她说，她一直在等待那个时刻，感觉这本书会像这类其他许多书一样，带有说教意味。嗯。但那种感觉从未出现。

Yeah. I was reading Maris Kreisman's review of your book or write up of your book in her newsletter. And she was like, I kept waiting for the moment that this would feel like so many other books in this vein, which is that, like, scolding. Mhmm. And it never arrives there.

我真的很同意这一点。书中没有那种‘天啊，你参与了这事真糟糕’或者‘我们或我们都糟透了’的语气。你懂我的意思吗？它不会让我有那种感觉。我认为这是非常高的赞誉。

And I really agree with that. Like, there isn't this tone of like, oh my god, you suck that you've participated in this or like we or we all suck. You know what I mean? Like, it's not that like it doesn't make it it doesn't make me feel like that. And it's a it's it's a real high praise, I think.

谢谢。我真的——是的。我的意思是，我亲身经历过。我经历了所有这一切。我穿过那些上衣。

Thank you. I really yeah. I mean, I I was there. I was there through all of this. I was wearing the tops.

我有过低腰牛仔裤。我肯定也吐过舌头，摆过那别扭的、不舒服的拇指姿势。我认为我们所有人都被潜移默化地培养，以多种方式参与这种环境，这些方式非常隐蔽，每种媒体形式都在告诉女孩们同样的事情：性就是她们的力量形式。这是她们唯一需要的权力形式，也是最重要的。

I had the low rise jeans. I'm sure my tongue was sticking out, my uncomfortable, uncomfortable thumb. It we were all of us being groomed, think, to participate in this environment in so many different ways and the ways were so insidious and every form of media was telling girls the same thing, that sex was their form of power. It was the only form of power they would ever need. It was the most important one.

这是她们唯一应该渴望的东西。当然，我们吸收了这些。在当时，我觉得很难找到反叙事。最终我找到了一些，它们非常非常有力量。但当你被一遍又一遍地告知，女性在公共场合只有一种可接受的行为方式时，当然很难去批判它。

It was the only thing they should ever aspire to. And it just of course, we absorbed it. Like, there was it was very very hard I think for me in this moment to find counternarratives. And some eventually, I did and and they were really really powerful. But when you're being told over and over and over again that there is really only one acceptable way for a woman in public to behave, like, of course, it's very, very hard to to critique that.

是的。好的。这最后一个问题将作为我们的福利环节，通常只对付费订阅者开放。今天所有人都能听到。所以如果你想确保总能收听到完整剧集并无广告体验，请前往 culturestudypod.substack.com 成为付费订阅者。

Yeah. Okay. This last question is gonna count as our bonus segment that would normally only be for paid subscribers. Everyone's getting it today. So if you wanna be sure to always get the full episode and an ad free experience, head to culturestudypod.substack.com and become a paid subscriber.

这个问题将把我们今天讨论的所有内容串联起来，并让我们展望未来——接下来会怎样。

This question is gonna take everything that we've talked about today and have us look forward like what now.

太喜欢了。

Love it.

这个问题来自查理。

This comes from Charlie.

我想先说明一点，以免引起误解：我绝不是厌女或反对‘笨美人’文化。其实我是‘笨美人’的超级粉丝。作为千禧一代，正好处于这个群体的核心年龄段，我成长过程中对女性气质的定义深受布兰妮、帕里斯·希尔顿、林赛·罗韩的写真，MTV《Next》和《Room Raiders》的美学风格，早期A&TM节目，甚至有点《Girls Gone Wild》的影响。这些都符合我称之为‘性感处女宝贝荡妇’的原型。

I wanna preface everything by just making it really clear. I do not want this to sound misogynistic or anti bimbo. I am a huge fan of the bimbos. As a millennial, kind of in the square in the middle of the demographic, I found my formative definitions of femininity to be very influenced by the Britney Paris Lindsay photo, the aesthetics of MTV's Next and Room Raiders and early A and TM and even Girls Gone Wild a little bit. It all fits into an archetype that I think of as the hot virgin baby slut.

如果不加注意，这种观念就会让我陷入——再次强调是早期那种——‘不像其他女孩’的思维模式，我并不喜欢这样。但‘性感处女宝贝荡妇’形象很早就影响了我，渗透到我公开表现女性气质的许多方式中，即使经过几十年阅读大量性别理论后慢慢意识到：不仅千禧初期不会认为我是辣妹，而且这其实挺酷的。我对此完全接受。但这种形象依然存在，显然会在性别化情境中显现出来。

And if I'm not careful, it kind of pushes me into this, again, early odds, very not like other girls type of thinking that I don't love. But the hot virgin baby slut got me really early, and it infected a lot of the ways that I perform femininity in public, even after decades of reading too much gender theory and realizing slowly that not only am I a person that the early aughts would not think is a hot girl, but that also that's pretty cool. I'm I'm fine with that. But the hot virgin baby slut persists. It comes out in gendered context, obviously.

比如，我们如何为了男性凝视扮演‘性感处女宝贝荡妇’，但同时又如何表现玩乐、挣扎、困境、醉酒状态，或者说任何公开场合的行为。任何高度情绪化的表现，如果我不特别注意，都会经过这个性感放荡的处女宝贝棱镜的过滤。作为一个三十多岁女性，我真的很想摆脱这种思维定式。所以该怎么做

So, like, how do we perform being a hot virgin baby slut for the male gaze, but also how I perform having fun, struggling, having a hard time, being drunk, for example, being in public, period. Any type of really heightened emotion gets filtered through the hot, slutty virgin baby prism if I'm not really careful about it. And as a mid thirties chick, I I kind of would love to unlearn that. So what do

你们都得给我建议吗？查理，我喜欢你的问题。我每天都在做这件事。索菲，你觉得怎么样？

y'all have to advise me about that? Charlie, I love your question. I'm doing it every day. How do you feel about this, Sophie?

嗯，我觉得变老真的很有帮助，因为我现在觉得什么让我性感？一双低跟鞋。就像，低跟鞋和阔腿裤。我就觉得，哦，没错。你可以找到所有这些穿衣方式，就像我正在步入四十岁，就像我四十岁的权力着装。

Well, I think it really helps getting older because I'm like, do you know what makes me feel sexy now? A low heel. Like, a low heel and a wide leg trouser. I'm like, oh, yes. Like, you can just find all these modes of dressing that are like, I'm aging into my forties, like, my my forties power dressing.

不，我是在开玩笑。我最近发现很有趣的是，看到我们这一代的流行歌手如何颠覆，我认为，那种性感处女宝贝的表演，像查佩尔·罗恩，我觉得她做得非常好，因为她的音乐非常性感。非常直白。非常刺激，但完全与男人无关。

No. I'm I'm being glib. I I found it really interesting lately to see the ways in which pop stars of our current generation are, like, subverting, I think, the performance of the hot virgin baby select like Chapel Roan, I think, is doing it really, really well because her music is so sexual. It's so explicit. It's so thrilling, but it's not about men at all.

这完全让我想起了麦当娜，以及它如何全是关于她的欲望，她想要自我呈现的方式。其中的近乎荒谬之处，我觉得非常有趣。萨布丽娜·卡彭特在我上后门节目时经常被提到。有很多关于萨布丽娜·卡彭特的问题，作家阿曼达·赫斯在我们做的一个小组讨论中对她提出了一个很好的观点，即她正在表演一种刻板的女性性感，但这几乎像是一个中年离婚女人会做的那种。完全正确。

It's entire reminds me of kinda Madonna and the ways in which it's all about her desires, the ways in which she wants to self present. The the the almost absurdity of it, I think, really interesting. Sabrina Carpenter has come up a lot while I was on backdoor. There are a lot of questions about Sabrina Carpenter, and the writer Amanda Hess made this really good point about her during a panel we did, which is that she is performing a kind of stereotypical feminine sexuality, but it's it's almost like the kind that a middle aged divorcee would do. Totally.

这有点像，非常像，多莉·帕顿式的性感小猫，一种老派的性感。

It's like very, like, Dolly Parton sex kitten old fashioned sexuality in a way.

非常眨眼的。对吧？

Very winking. Right?

是的。就像，老式的性感炸弹。它有点疏离于我们当代关于什么是性感女人的观念。所以，是的，我认为女性越多地玩弄这些真正荒谬的版本或这些性感的延伸，并找到对她们感觉好的东西，找到最符合她们自己身份以及她们自己对性、权力和快乐的看法的东西，就像，我们会越开心，我认为。把它当作不是我们出门被接受、不引起厌恶的要求，就像约会电影那样，而是为我们自己找点乐子。

Yeah. Like, old fashioned bombshell. It's sort of kind of alien alienated from, like, our contemporary ideas of of what a, like, sexy woman is. So, yeah, I I think the more that women can play with these real absurd versions or these like extensions of sexiness and and find what feels good for them and and find what feels most akin with their own identities and with their own ideas about sex and power and pleasure, like, the more the more fun we'll have, I think. To treat it as something that is not a requirement for us to be out in public to be accepted, to not, like, induce disgust, like like, date movie, but to to just have fun for ourselves.

你怎么看？

What do you think?

我也觉得，就像查理那样，这个问题对我来说是‘去学习’的一部分。对吧？就像是要注意到那些时刻，当你感觉‘哦天哪，有个热乎乎、邋遢的处女宝宝要出来了’。即使有了知识，你知道，就像你说的，你的书很大程度上是关于承认模式的。

I think also that, like, Charlie like, this question to me is part of the unlearning. Right? Like, calling attention to the the moments when you feel like, oh, man. There's hot, sloppy virgin baby coming out. Like like, even having knowledge, you know, and like you said, your book is a lot about acknowledging patterns.

而且似乎在这个问题中，查理也在承认自己生活中的模式。是的。我认为，这非常像是在做功课。对吧？就像‘去学习’这些破事，比学习它们花的时间长得多。

And it seems like even in this question, Charlie is acknowledging patterns in their own life. Yeah. And I think, like, that is very that's doing the work. And Right. It's like unlearning this shit, it takes so much longer than learning it.

但当你意识到它，a，是存在的，并且b，是可以被‘去学习’的，我认为你已经完成了大部分工作。就像，这个时代真正的危险在于我们吸收了多少却没有去质疑。所以去质疑它，就像是如此重大的一步。

But the moment that you see it as something that, a, that exists and, b, that can be unlearned, you're in most of the way there, I think. Like, the the real danger of this era was just how much we absorbed and didn't think to question. So thinking to question it is like such a it's such a momentous step.

是的。关于变老，我怎么强调都不为过。而且我也觉得，就像你也稍微偏离了那种‘可取性’，甚至能够达到那种理想状态，它以另一种方式变得解放。我记得在我大概查理那个年纪，三十多岁的时候，有一个比我大几岁的人谈论他们如何进入他们的‘复古Eileen Fisher时代’。所以他们只是痴迷于在eBay上买Eileen Fisher的分体装，就像找那些方方正正的东西。

Yeah. And I can't say enough about aging. And also I think like as you also kind of veer off of like the desirability, the like even being able to achieve that ideal, it becomes liberating in a different way. And I have a memory of being what I assume is around Charlie's age, mid thirties and someone who is several years older than me talking about like how they were moving into their like vintage Eileen Fisher era. So that they were just obsessed with the shopping Eileen Fisher separates on eBay, like finding just boxy shit.

我当时想，这对我来说太陌生了。而现在，仅仅五、六、七年之后，就像你说的，‘哦，一条飘逸的裤子配低跟鞋’。我就想，‘哦，我的运动鞋配这条卷边牛仔裤’。或者甚至像我前几天和Jason Diamond录一期关于男装的节目，他谈到进入他的‘爸爸时代’，他变得如此自在地接受从邋遢到穿着牛仔短裤的‘骚气爸爸’等各种风格，就像在他年龄增长并承担不同身份的过程中，以如此多的不同方式。所以我认为那只是功课的一部分。

And I was like, Like, am that that's so foreign to me at that moment. And now, and only, like, five, six, seven years later, like, I'm so much more like you said, like, oh, a flowy trouser with a low heel. I am like, oh, my sneakers with this cuffed jean. Like, just, or even like I the other day I was taping an episode with, Jason Diamond about men's fashion and he was talking about how moving into his dad era, he has become so much more like comfortable with adopting like everything from sloppiness to like slutty dad with jorts, like, just in so many different ways as he's aged and taken on different identities. And so I think that that that is just part of the the work.

是的。但我想起Walton Goggins在SNL小品里的那句台词，他说‘成熟的皇后们浑身滴着高比特’。就像，是的。那可能就是我。因为它就像，是个笑话。

Yeah. But I think of that line from the Walton Goggins SNL skit where he's like, mature queens dripping in tall bits. Like, yes. That could be me. Because it's it's like, it's a joke.

是的。但这是一种敬意。非常虔诚。成熟的女王范儿。就像，没错。

Yes. But it is reverent. It's very reverent. Mature queens. Like Yeah.

而且，是的，我正在步入我成熟女王的时代，浑身散发着高雅的气质。

And, yeah, aging into my mature queen dripping in tall bits era.

我唯一想补充的是，在九十年代末、两千年代初，尤其是在小地方长大时，公共领域中存在的生存方式非常少。我那时根本看不到世界上不同的生活方式。是的。而现在，尽管我认为有很多霸权规范在不断被重申，但同时也有所有这些不同的方式来理解世界上不同的生存方式。比如，甚至是对“母亲”这种形象的欣赏。

And the only other thing that I'd add is that like there were so few public ways of being back in like as you know, the late nineties, the early two thousands, especially growing up in smaller places. Like I just did not see different ways of being in the world. Yeah. And now, even though I think that there are a lot of like hegemonic norms that keep getting reinscribed, like there also are all of these different ways of like understanding different ways of being in the world. Like, even, like, the appreciation of, like, mother.

对吧？就像，作为一个年长的女性，能以这种方式受到尊崇是不可思议的，如果那个人是“母亲”的话。或者，是的，就像在TikTok这样的平台上，也有无数种多样性和无尽的选择。

Right? Like, it is incredible to be venerated in this way as an older woman, right, if that person is mother. Or, yeah, just like the multiplicity, the and unending options that also are available on something like TikTok.

是的。我的书里引用了苏珊·桑塔格的一句话，来自她写的一篇关于衰老的文章，她说，女性美只有一个标准被认可，那就是少女。我认为在很长一段时间里，我们都接受了这一点，即你必须显得少女才能美丽。但我认为现在人们越来越多地尝试，比如让头发变白，不打肉毒杆菌。只是在探索美丽和明显衰老的意义。

Yeah. There's a there's a quote in my book that from Susan Sontag where she from an essay she writes on aging where she says, something like, like, there's only only one standard of female beauty is sanctioned, the girl. And I think for a long time, we went along with that, the idea that you had to be girlish to be beautiful. But we I think people are experimenting more and more now, like letting their hair go gray, not getting Botox. Just exploring what it means to be beautiful and to be visibly aging.

就像，我并不总是很自在，但我很享受尝试在我的生活中、在我的镜子里想象那种方式。但一旦我们愿意摆脱少女气作为女性美丽或有力量的唯一方式——这很荒谬，因为“少女”这个词，再次强调，并不与权力相伴——它就打开了所有这些新的探索途径，这真的很有趣。低跟鞋，我告诉你。

Like, I'm very, I think, not always very comfortable, but I am enjoying, I think, finding ways to sort of try and imagine that in my in my own life, in my own mirror. But once we are willing to move away from girlishness as like the only way that you're allowed to be beautiful or powerful as a woman, which is absurd because girl says, again, like, not a word that goes with power. It opens up all these new avenues for exploration, which can be really fun. Low heel. I'm telling you.

我认为这是一个完美的结束点。如果人们想在网上阅读更多你的内容，可以在哪里找到你？

I think that's a perfect place to end it. Where can people find more of you if they wanna read more of you on the Internet?

我在《大西洋月刊》工作，那是我的家。我还在Instagram上，账号是sophie gilbert writes，也在蓝天上。

I am at The Atlantic. That's my home. And I'm on Instagram. I'm sophie gilbert writes, and I'm on blue sky.

那你有没有偏好的地方让人们购买你的书？

And do you have a preferred place for people to buy your book?

他们想在哪儿买书都行，甚至去图书馆借阅也很好。theatlantic.com上有一篇节选，如果你想先了解一下的话。

Wherever they would like to buy books or even if they would like to go to the library and check it out from there, that would be lovely. There's an excerpt at theatlantic.com if you wanna get a a sense of it.

我们会在那里放一个GIF链接。非常感谢你的加入，这真是既可怕又愉悦的享受。

We'll put a a GIF link in there. Thank you so much for joining me. This has been a horrendous delight and pleasure.

对我来说也是既糟糕又美妙。

It has been awful and wonderful for me too.

感谢收听《文化研究播客》。请务必在你获取播客的地方订阅，因为我保证我们有很多精彩的节目正在制作中，你绝不会想错过任何一集。先预告两期：我们将与卡拉·梅雷迪思录制一期关于福音派教会营地文化的节目，这是梅洛迪和我都很有经验的话题，所以会既精彩又戏剧性。

Thanks for listening to the Culture Study Podcast. Be sure to subscribe wherever you get your podcasts because I promise we have so many great episodes in the works, you do not want to miss any of them. A heads up on two of them. We're gonna record an episode on evangelical church camp culture with Cara Meredith. This is something that Melody and I both have a lot of experience in, so it's gonna be great and dramatic.

卡拉·梅雷迪思刚出了一本关于这个主题的新书。我们还会与语言学教授妮可·霍利戴做一期节目，全部关于美国英语的口音和变体，以及语言变体如何与我们的多元文化密切相关。这会非常精彩。所以，如果你想就这些话题提交问题、建议其他主题、询问你周围的文化现象，或为我们的订阅者专属建议时段提交问题，请访问我们的谷歌论坛tinyurl.com/culturestudypod，或查看节目说明中的链接。今天的节目对所有人免费开放。

And Kara Meredith has a new book out about this very subject. We're gonna do an episode with linguistics professor Nicole Holliday, is gonna be all about accents and variations in American English and about how linguistic variations have so much to do with, like, our various cultures. It's gonna be fantastic. So if you wanna submit any questions on those topics or suggest a different topic or ask a question about the culture that surrounds you or submit a question for our subscriber only advice time segment, go to our Google forum at tinyurl.com/culturestudypod or check the show notes for a link. Today's episode is free for everyone.

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如果你是节目的付费订阅者，请前往讨论帖继续交流。我想听听这还让你想到了哪些文化杂谈。我们可以深入探讨节目中涉及的众多话题中的任何一个，但我相信它还会让你想到其他内容。《文化研究播客》由我和梅洛迪·罗威尔制作，音乐由Pondington Fair提供。

And if you're a paid subscriber to the pod, head over to the discussion thread and keep the conversation going. I wanna hear what other cultural sludge this brought up for you. We could talk more about any of the many, many subjects that we covered in the pod, but I'm sure it will make you think of others. The Culture Study Podcast is produced by me, Anne Helen Peterson, and Melody Rowell. Music is by Pondington Fair.

你可以在Instagram上找到我：Anne Helen Petersen，找到梅洛迪：Melodius forty seven，以及节目官方账号：Culture Study Pod。

You can find me on Instagram at Anne Helen Petersen, Melody at Melodius forty seven, and the show at Culture Study Pod.