粉丝小说带来的沉浸式快乐

那是在我最好朋友家的地下室，用她父母的电脑，当时我们大概12、13岁。我们都非常喜欢《星球大战》，发现了一个满是《星球大战》故事的网站。我们就并肩坐在黑暗中浏览这些故事。

It was in the basement of my best friend's house on her parents' computer when we were must have been 12 or 13. We were both really into Star Wars, and we discovered a website that was full of stories about Star Wars. And we just sat next to each other in the dark looking at them.

你还记得其中具体有哪些故事吗？

Do you remember what any of the stories were specifically about?

那正好是《幽灵的威胁》上映的时候，就是第一部前传。故事是关于那个时代的欧比旺·克诺比的。艾米丽，你的经历呢？

It was right around the time that The Phantom Menace came out, is the first prequel. And they were about Obi Wan Kenobi from that era. Emily, what was yours?

我当时在LiveJournal上，发现了一篇《哈利·波特》的故事，当时我还不知道同人小说是什么。我就想，这是什么东西？是某人做的项目吗？那是一篇长达数千字的《哈利·波特》平行宇宙故事。我简直不敢相信自己读到的内容。

I was on LiveJournal, and I and I found some kind of, like, Harry Potter story, and I didn't really know what fan fiction was. So I thought I was like, did somebody like, what is this? Is this, like, a project that somebody did? And it was this huge, like, multi thousand word AU for Harry Potter. And I just could not believe what I was reading.

我觉得这是我人生中遇到过最棒的事情。我也是用家里的电脑拨号上网，我爸妈肯定在吼我让我别用电脑了，因为他们要打电话。你懂的吧？真是太棒了。美好的时光。

I was like, this is the best thing that's ever happened to me in my life. And I was I also was on my family computer on dial up, and I'm sure my parents were yelling at me to get off the computer so they could use the phone. You know what I mean? So excellent. Excellent times.

百分百同意。这里是《文化研究播客》，我是安娜·海伦·彼得森。

100%. This is the Culture Study Podcast, and I'm Anna Helen Peterson.

我是艾米丽。在各种同人小说平台上我叫Fervent Rabbit，是一名同人小说作者，也是Mind the Tags播客的联合主持人。

I'm Emily. I go by Fervent Rabbit under the various fan fiction places, and I'm a fan fiction writer and cohost of Mind the Tags podcast.

我是V。根据用户名允许的字符数，我有时叫V against，有时叫V against the day。我是《Mind the Tags》播客的另一位联合主持人。

And I'm V. I go by V against or V against the day, depending on how many characters I'm allowed in my screen name. And I am the other cohost of the Mind the Tags podcast.

你知道吗，我想退一步说，当你作为某事物的狂热粉丝发现同人小说时的部分兴奋点在于：你如此热爱这个东西，就想要更多内容，对吧？原作文本存在各种限制，而当你发现还有更多内容时——

You know, one of the things that I wanna even, like, to take steps back from part of the thrill when you are a big fan of something and discover fan fiction is like, you love this thing so much. You just want more of it. Right? And there are these constraints of the text as it exists. And then when you find out that there's more Yeah.

不只是多一点，而是海量内容。这在很多方面都让人非常满足。就我个人经历而言，虽然严格来说不算是同人小说，但我觉得某种程度上可以这么类比。比如我弟弟非常沉迷《星球大战》小说，特别关注正史与非正史的区分。而我则迷上了《星际迷航：下一代》的小说，它们拓展出无数不同的故事线。

Not just a little bit more, but a lot more. It's like so gratifying in so many different ways. For me, in my experience, this is not technically fan fiction per se, but I think actually we could make an argument in some ways. Like, my brother was very into Star Wars novels and very into the classifications between canon and non canon. And I got really into Star Trek, the next generation novels, which go in so many different directions.

我在这个播客里提到过《星际迷航》小说《Imzadi》的巨大影响力，它完整构想了瑞克和迪安娜·特洛伊之间的背景故事，深化了他们的情感联结，这种叙事方式完全击中了我的兴奋点。让我意识到每个角色背后都藏着冰山般丰富的故事，我太喜欢这种——在约束下的创作。

And I've talked on this podcast before about like how influential the Star Trek novel Imzadi is, which like imagines this whole backstory between Riker and Deanna Troi and like their connection just flushes it out in ways that, like, pushed all of these buttons in my head. Was like, there there's always an iceberg underneath every character that you encounter. And then I love that. Constraints.

那是官方小说吗？是的。好的，不错。

Was it a Was it an official novel? Yes. Okay. Nice.

对。所以你知道，它们算是近亲关系

Yeah. So not you know, it's it's related. They're cousins

嗯。

Yeah.

就我们正在谈论的话题而言。我认为，它们之间有着非常非常紧密的联系。

To what we're talking about. Very, very closely related, I think.

是的，完全正确。

Yeah. Exactly.

我在那个年纪也特别迷《星球大战》的小说。所以，就像你拥有这么多本一样，对吧？就像，只是

I was also really into the Star Wars novels around that age. So And just like the fact that you have so many. Right? Like, just

就像，你看着某人书架上的全套藏书，然后你会想，我能拥有所有这些吗？就像，我能读这么久吗？这真的很神奇。

like, you look at someone's shelves who has all of them, and you're like, I can I can have all of these? Like, all like, I can read for this long? It's really amazing.

是啊。还有更多我喜欢的东西。

Yeah. There's more of this thing I love.

而且在我自己的大脑里还有更多，然后我可以把它们输出到纸上或者屏幕上。没错。

And there's more of it in my own brain, which then I can put out onto physical paper and or a screen. Exactly.

而且现在不需要成为乔治·卢卡斯也能做到。是的。

And now don't have to be George Lucas to do it. Yes.

是的。所以今天的这一集已经酝酿很久了。我想我们最早在三月份就收到了做一期同人小说专题的请求。后来艾米丽在我们做完酷儿浪漫主题后联系了我们。你当时就说，我真的很喜欢那一期节目。

Yeah. So today's episode has been a long time coming. I think we got our first request for a fan fiction episode back in March. And then Emily reached out after our episode on queer romance. And you were just like, I really like the episode.

我和朋友做了这个播客，觉得你可能会有兴趣了解。我当时就说，当然有兴趣。而且，你愿意来上节目吗？

My friend and I do this podcast and, like, maybe you'd wanna know about it. And I was like, yes. And also, will you come on the show?

太棒了。不过得说明一下，我们可不是真正的同人小说专家。我的意思是，如果说专家指的是狂热读者、写手和爱好者，那没错。我就是这样的人。是的。

Hooray. Although, wanna say that we we really fan fiction expert. I'm like, I mean, by expert, you mean avid reader, writer, and enthusiast, then yes. That's me. Yes.

那就是专家了。绝对是专家。能跟我们聊聊你们的播客《注意标签》吗？

That's expert. That's expert. So can you tell us about your podcast, Mind the Text?

当然。我最初是和另一位同人圈朋友一起创办的，后来她生活有些变动，现在由V和我共同主持。我和V是在《我们的旗帜意味着死亡》同人圈认识的，至今我们还活跃在那里。嗯哼。所以我们主持的播客叫《注意标签》。

Sure. So I started it with another pal, another fanfic pal who life got life y, and so now V is with me. And V and I met in the Our Flag Means Death fandom, of which we are still a part. Mhmm. And so we host a podcast called Mind the Tags.

我们每期节目都会讨论与同人小说相关的主题。比如我们做过柯克与斯波克的专题，因为这是最早的重要slash配对之一。我们还做过平行宇宙专题，以及互联网与同人小说演变相关的节目。另外我们还会采访各界人士，这是我最喜欢的环节。

And we really every time we have an episode, we talk about a topic that is related to fan fiction in some way. So we've done episodes about Kirk and Spock because that was one of the really big original slash pairings. We've done an episode about alternate universes. We've done episodes about sort of, like, the Internet and the evolution of fan fiction on the Internet. And then we also interview people, which is my favorite thing to do.

我们会采访各种人物，包括同人圈记者、创作者、写手、播客主。我特别喜欢听他们分享见解，了解他们与同人小说的故事。

So we interview all kinds of folks, fandom journalists, creators, writers, pod pickers. And I just love, like, listening to what they have to say and learning about their experiences with fan fiction too.

菲比，你对此有什么要补充的吗？

Phoe, do you have anything to add to that?

没有。我只是在艾米丽邀请共同主持时非常兴奋，因为我喜欢谈论这些东西。我也很喜欢艾米丽，所以想多聊聊。菲比。等等。

No. I I was just really excited when Emily was asking for a cohost because I love talking about this stuff. I also love Emily, so wanted to talk more. Phoebe. Wait.

播客上的最新消息。

Late breaking on the pod.

这是一个从敌人到恋人的故事线，但是，你知道，就在这里

It's been an enemies to lover arc, but, you know, here

我们来了。

we are.

所以我们将尝试通过这个播客来实现。这是一个很难把握的平衡，但我们希望它能让不太熟悉的人容易理解，同时也能让非常熟悉的人觉得有趣。嗯。这就是理想状态。所以我们会为此努力。

So we're gonna try with this podcast. This is a a difficult needle to thread, but we want this to be accessible to people who aren't as familiar, but then also interesting to people who are very familiar. Mhmm. That's the dream. So we're gonna we're gonna hope for it.

我们在我们的节目中也尝试这样做。就像是的。我们每次也会做一个每日一词，来解释这个词是什么意思？因为有时候有很多行话和术语，而你

We try to do that on ours too. It's like Yeah. We do we do a word of the day every time too to, like, kinda go, like, what's this word mean? Because it's like, there's a lot of jargon and lingo sometimes, and you

是的。

Yeah.

有点想详细分析一下。所以我们肯定会尝试这么做。

Kinda wanna break it down. So we'll we'll definitely try to do that.

是的。我认为我们今天可以开始的一个方式是描述一下，比如，当前互联网上同人小说的格局是怎样的？你会怎么描述它？它主要在哪里存在？又是如何变化的？

Yeah. And I think one way that we can start today is to describe, like, what is the landscape of fanfic on the Internet right now? Like, how would you describe it? Where does it live? How is it changing?

你可以随心所欲地展开这个话题。

You can go anywhere you want with this.

好的。Vee，你想先开始吗？

Yeah. Vee, do you wanna start?

是的。我的意思是，就像我们所有的互联网使用一样，它是在不断演变的。它从一个网站迁移到另一个网站。回想我们刚开始的时候，我觉得在我们这个年纪，那是人们的个人网站，比如网络论坛，像Geocities页面。没错。

Yeah. I mean, like all of our Internet usage, it is constantly evolving. It moves from site to site. When we first got started, I think of our age, it was people's individual sites, things like web forums, like Geocities pages. Yep.

后来转向了LiveJournal和类似博客类型的网站，还有一个叫fanfiction.net的网站，它是最早将许多不同粉丝圈集合在一个地方的平台之一。而现在，可能最大的平台是Archive of Our Own，尽管fanfiction.net仍然有很多内容，Wattpad也是。但如今最大的可能是Archive of Our Own，它拥有大量不同粉丝圈的作品收藏。它们吸收并合并了许多较小的独立粉丝论坛，而且是一个非营利组织。实际上，它们还有一本学术期刊，如果我们深入讨论同人小说的学术方面，可以谈谈这个，但在我看来，它们是寻找同人小说的黄金标准之地。

Moved on to to LiveJournal and similar kind of, like, blogging type websites, and there was also a website called fanfiction.net, which was one of the first that collected a lot of different fandoms together in one place. And now, probably the biggest, although fanfiction.net still has a lot, as does a website called Wattpad. But probably the biggest now is Archive of Our Own, which has a huge collection of all these different fandoms. They've absorbed and joined with a lot of those smaller individual fandom forums, and they're a nonprofit. They, actually have an academic journal, which we can talk about, if we get into more about, like, the academic side of fanfic, but they are, I would say, from my perspective, the gold standard place to go to look for fanfic.

我对Wattpad不太熟悉，所以如果我误解了它请见谅，但对我来说，Our Own Archive（AO3）是最不混乱、最容易找到你想要的内容的平台。它有一个出色的标签系统，能很好地帮你缩小范围，比如你想找《星际迷航：下一代》某一集中Riker做了某件你特别喜欢的事情的同人小说。比如他坐在椅子上那种标签。没错。你知道，像‘Riker坐椅子’这种标签几乎肯定能在Our Own Archive上找到。

I'm not as familiar with Wattpad, so I'm sorry if I'm Wattpad slandering, but to me, Archive of Our Own is the least chaotic and the easiest to find what you're looking for. They have an excellent tagging system that really helps you narrow it down if you're like, I wanna read a fanfic about this specific episode of TNG where Riker was, like, doing something that I really loved. Sitting on a chair for where that kind of tag. Exactly. If he you know, like, Riker sitting on chairs is almost certainly a tag that's on Archive of Our Own.

是的。我保证。所以我认为我们现在的情况是Our Own Archive

Yeah. Guarantee. So I think that where we're at right now is Archive of Our

Archive，

Own,

不过，有些粉丝圈仍然停留在那种单一论坛式的、非常特定于我们粉丝圈的网站。

Though, some fandoms are still in that, like, single forum, very particular for our fandom type of website.

嗯。所以当Melody发给我一个链接，比如Draco和Hermione的slash同人，那是从哪里来的？它怎么变成我能放到Kindle上的PDF？它是怎么

Mhmm. So when, like, Melody sends me a link to this, like, Draco, Hermione slash, where is that coming from? Like, how does it become a PDF that I can then put on my Kindle? Like, how does that

哦，有意思。是的。是的。嗯，Our Own Archive，我认为大多数同人作者可能都会把作品发布在Archive of Everyone上，我们简称AO3。所以即使他们也在自己的粉丝圈网站发布，很多人可能会交叉发布。

Oh, interesting. Yeah. Yeah. Well, Archive of Own, which is I would say, like, most fanfic writers probably post their works on Archive of Everyone, which we call AO3 is the little abbreviation of it. So even if they do post it on their own fandom website, a lot of folks maybe do cross posting.

这确实是几年前的情况，在AO3变得如此庞大之前。是的。我刚查了，AO3上有1400万部作品，所以它是一个非常巨大的庞然大物。所以你可以在AO3上发布作品时，很容易地将网页转换成可打印的PDF或类似格式。或者

That certainly was the case, like, years ago before Yeah. Ao three kinda became so big. There's 14,000,000 works on Ao three I just looked up, which so it's it's such a huge, like, monolith thing. So what you can do is when you post on Ao three, you can really easily convert that, like, web page into a, like, printable PDF or something like that. Or

也有EPUB格式。

have EPUB too.

是的。他们也有EPUB格式。

Yes. They have EPUB as well.

在飞机上特别方便，因为，就像，没什么比不小心刷新了你在飞机上试图阅读的同人小说更糟的了，然后你就会想，我还有四个小时，却不知道接下来会发生什么。

It's particularly handy on an airplane because, like, nothing worse than accidentally reloading the fanfic that you're trying to read on an airplane, and then you're like, I've got four more hours, and I don't know what's gonna happen.

哦天哪。而且，我

Oh my. And also, I the

对我来说，我在传统屏幕上花费了太多时间。所以，能够从电脑屏幕甚至手机屏幕上阅读一些东西非常有用。

for me, I spend too much time on traditional screens. So, like, being able to read something off of my computer screen or even off of my phone screen is very useful.

哦，是的。而且我们——这是我们在我们的粉丝圈《我们的旗帜意味着死亡》中发现的，就是有这么多人在制作podfic，这本质上是同人小说的有声书。哦。这太不可思议了。Podfic宇宙的多样性令人难以置信。

Oh, yeah. And also and we this is something that we found in our fandom, our flag means death, is that so many people are making podfics, which are essentially audiobooks of fan fiction. Oh. And it is incredible. The diversity of the podfic universe is incredible.

有人会在里面加入音效、音乐和编辑，简直超乎想象。太美妙了。所以人们会这样做。他们把它发布在他们自己的存档网站上，有时也会发布在SoundCloud上。所以你可以像听有声书或播客一样收听它。

There are people who put sound effects in and music and editing, and and it is just unreal. It's so beautiful. So the people do that. They post that on archive of their own, and then they they also post it sometimes on, like, SoundCloud. So you can you can listen to it as if you were listening to, like, an audiobook or a podcast as well.

这让我想起了广播节目。

It reminds me of like radio shows.

没错，就像学校的广播节目。

Absolutely, Like the school

广播节目，你懂的吧？

radio shows, you know?

是的。

Yeah.

你知道，我对同人小说的历史很了解，因为这是我媒体研究博士课程的一部分，我们经常会花几周时间研究它的历史。比如，亨利·詹金斯非常有影响力，是最早公开撰写关于同人小说的人之一。但是，你觉得历史以及历史如何——比如正典、所有这些因素——对我们现在的状况有多大影响？我知道这是个很大的问题。是的。

You know, I know a lot about the history of fan fiction because it was part of my PhD in media studies was we would always do, like, various weeks on the history. Like, Henry Jenkins is someone who is very influential and, like, one of the first people to write very publicly about fan fiction. But, like, how much do you think how do you think about the history and how the history like, how canon, how all of these things, like, how much it contributes to where we are now? I know that's a huge question. Yeah.

但你可以随心所欲地理解这个问题。

But you can take that wherever you want.

我喜欢你之前说的‘我太爱这个东西了，我需要更多’。我觉得这也是同人小说历史的缩影。就像，很多人会说，哦，我一开始就知道，所有东西都是同人小说。

I like what you said earlier about I love this thing so much. I I need more of it. I think that is, like, the history of fan fiction in a nutshell too. It's like Yeah. A lot of people will say, oh, I could have started with, you know everything's fan fiction.

就像，有人会为维吉尔之类的角色创作同人小说。但我觉得在现代，也就是二十世纪、二十一世纪，我们看到的这些书籍、电影和电视剧，人们是如此热爱这些作品，以至于他们会寻找其他同好交流，甚至可能创作衍生作品。我总是会提到《星际迷航》，因为它是最早展现出这种非凡粉丝文化的例子之一，人们不仅线下聚会，还通过邮寄方式互相交流。

Like, there people do fan fiction of Virgil and things like that. But I think in the modern age, which I don't know, like twentieth century, twenty first century, these books and movies and TV shows that we see, people individual people love the thing so much. They then seek out other people to connect about it and then maybe create transformative works about it. I would say I always go to Star Trek because it was one of the first sort of, like, demonstrated or, like, remarkable fandoms where people really got together in person and also literally mailing things to each other

是的。

Yep.

并围绕他们热爱的这部媒体创作同人小说和衍生作品。从那以后，它随着技术一起演变。同人小说几乎有一个平行的发展历程，从蜗牛邮件到早期互联网，再到现代。所以你可以通过同人小说的历史来追溯社会和技术的发展。所以我非常喜欢

And created fan fiction and transformative works around this piece of media that they love so much. And from there, it sort of evolved along with the technology. Fan fiction has, like, a real a parallel journey from snail mail to early Internet to, like, the modern era. So you can kinda trace, like, the society and technology along with the history of fan fiction too. So I love

这一点。你知道，我们都把同人小说的起源追溯到《星际迷航》，但以前也有围绕简·奥斯汀的书和夏洛克·福尔摩斯的俱乐部，人们通过邮寄互相分享故事之类的东西。

that about it. You know, we all kinda date the start of fanfic to Star Trek, but there were, like, clubs around Jane Austen's books Yep. And Sherlock Holmes that were, like, mailing each other stories and things like that in the past.

是的，是的。还有一个我做播客时学到的术语，叫做“抽屉小说”，因为我来自费城，所以“抽屉”这个词我发音有点困难。抽屉，抽屉。抽屉。

Yeah. Yeah. And there's also, a term that I learned from doing the podcast called drawer fic, which I've I I have a hard time pronouncing the word drawer because I'm from Philadelphia. So but drawer drawer. Drawer.

抽屉。人们会写小说，然后只留给自己看。他们会把它放在抽屉里。所以我认为这也是同人小说历史和体验中的重要一部分，即使可能没有其他人读过，但人们一直有灵感去创作，这真的很棒。

Drawer. People would write fic and then just keep it to themselves. It's and they would keep it in their drawer. And so I think that's an important part of of, like, the fanfic history and experience as well, you know, even though maybe no one else read it. The fact that people were always inspired to do that is is great.

所以我们不知道其中的一些作品，但这确实发生过。我认识一些人，他们肯定写过抽屉小说。

And so we don't know about some of that, but, like, that's something that definitely happened. I know I know people who definitely wrote Drorific.

而且，这也是你小时候就会学到的东西。比如，我都数不清读过多少篇身边孩子们写的关于钢铁侠的小故事了，对吧？绝对是的。你懂我的意思吗？

Well, and also, it's something that you learn as a young child. Like, I don't know how many little short stories I've read by, like, some of the kids in my life about, like, Iron Man. Right? Like Absolutely. You know what I mean?

就像，你会觉得，哦，这里有个角色。有时候他们甚至不是通过原著文本了解这个角色的。比如他们太小还不能看《钢铁侠》，但他们通过某种表现形式、手办或其他方式认识了钢铁侠这个角色，然后你就能编出关于这个人的故事。对吧？所以这真的很神奇。

Like, you're like, oh, here's a character. And sometimes they they learn of this character not even through, like, source text. Like, they're too young to watch Iron Man, but they have Iron Man, the character in their lives through some, you know, representation or a figurine or whatever it is, and you get to come up with a story about this person. Right? So it Like, it's amazing.

是的。我也觉得《星际迷航》的例子总是很有启发性，因为我想大多数人都熟悉故事的基本框架，同时也明白其中有很多限制。对吧？比如，你有一个黑人角色却没什么戏份。对吧？

Yeah. I also think the example of Star Trek is always like a useful one to think about because people are I I think most people are familiar with some of, like, the base outlines of the text and also understand how there were a lot of constraints. Right? So, like, you had a black character who didn't do anything. Right?

或者你还有其他女性角色也没什么作为。还有一个被严重性化的角色，她也没有——我不知道——没有那种让大多数女性观众满意的有意义的关系。就像，他确实性感，但方式不对。

Or you had other female characters who also didn't do anything. And you had, like, this profoundly sexualized character who also, like, didn't really have I don't know. Like, didn't have meaningful relationships that were satisfying, I think, to most women viewers. Like, wasn't like an like, he was sexy, but in the wrong way.

我不知道该怎么形容柯克了。等等。哦，柯克？我不确定。

I don't know how else to describe Kirk. Wait. Oh, Kirk? I don't know.

哦，艾米丽要有意见了。

Oh, Emily's about to have an opinion.

我想我是爱詹姆斯·T·柯克的，各位。而且没人能像他那样把衬衫撕得那么帅。就像

I guess I love James y'all. And I love no one can do a slash shirt like him. Like

我知道。能做到。太真实了。但是，就像，但也不是我不知道。就像，整个同人小说中把他和斯波克配对的普遍现象

I know. Can do it. It's so real. So but, like, but not like I don't know. Like, the whole the the prevalence of fic that places him with Spock

嗯哼。

Mhmm.

总是让我觉得，哦，我们希望这些敏感的男人能彼此温柔相待，然后或许还能发生关系。

Always communicates to me like, oh, we want these sensitive men to, like, be sensitive with one another and then also maybe have sex with one another.

当作一种犒赏。

As a treat.

是啊。当作一种犒赏。

Yeah. As a treat.

关键在于，对于许多顺性别女性和酷儿群体来说，你知道，媒体中很少描绘出你渴望的那种关系或你想成为的样子。所以部分原因就是能够拿这些你经常看到的角色来说：天啊，我希望他们能这样表达自己，因为这就是我的感受。所以我完全同意你的看法。这个角色并不是说他不好，只是他有些特质与我们想要成为或看到的自己不太契合。这其实是一种理想化的现实版本。

The thing is with that is like, for a lot of assigned female, birth folks and queer folks, you know, you don't really see media depictions that are, that capture the types of relationship you want or that you want to be And part so it's just being able to take these characters, which you see all the time and say, man, I wish they could express themselves this way because that's how I feel. And so I think you're totally right. Like, the character it's not that it's he's bad. It's just that he there are things about it that are not they're just not vibing with the way that we want to be or want to see ourselves. And it's an idealized, like, version of reality, really.

嗯哼。

Mhmm.

好的。那么，我们准备好回答问题了吗？

Okay. So are we ready for the questions?

哦，天哪。我们对这些问题感到非常兴奋。

Oh my gosh. We're so excited about the

问题。我们

questions. We

已经准备好了。

are so ready.

好的。我们对第一个问题很兴奋。让我们听听蒂娜怎么说。

Okay. We are excited for this first question. Let's hear from Tina.

我希望看到同人小说被探讨为一种独特的浪漫写作体裁，拥有其悠久、独特且不断演变的历史和文化。一个潜在的讨论子话题可能是其强烈的酷儿文化，许多写作同人小说的人是酷儿女性，斜线文化的历史突出地位，以及它是如何以及为何逐渐主流化的。现在承认你读同人小说不再那么禁忌，尤其是在Z世代人群中。但无论你和你的搭档主持人想出什么内容，我都会热切倾听。我从13岁就开始读同人小说，现在40岁了。

I would like to see fanfic explored as a distinct genre of romance writing with its own long, unique, and ever evolving history and culture. A potential subtopic for discussion could be its strong culture of queerness, how many people writing it are queer women the historic prominence of Slash and how and why it has been gradually mainstreamed. It's no longer so taboo, especially in a room of Gen Z folks, to admit you read it. But whatever you and your co host come up with, I will avidly listen to. I have been reading fanfic since I was 13, and I'm now 40.

我相信我远不是你们唯一有这种与该体裁长期个人历史的听众，他们会为有一期关于这个话题的节目而感到兴奋。

I'm sure I'm far from your only listener with this kind of long personal history with this genre who would be thrilled at an episode on this topic.

这个评论问题让你想到了什么？

What did this commentquestion make you think about?

嗯，我立刻想到的一个惊人事实是，Archive of Our Own（我们自己的档案馆）对提交同人小说的作者进行了人口统计调查，2024年的调查——显然这是自我报告的数据。是的，你知道吗？有81.4%的人以某种形式认同为LGBTQ+群体，这是一个非常庞大的数字。确实如此。

Well, the amazing thing that I immediately thought of is that Archive of Our Own does a demographic survey of the people who write fic and submit it to them, and the 2024 surveyobviously, this is self reported. Yeah. You know? But eighty one point four percent of people identified as LGBTQ plus in some form, which is a huge number. Yes.

而且我认为这是同人小说非常重要的一部分，但在很多主流讨论中经常被忽略，人们总是说‘哦，就是那些饥渴的直女在写这些东西’。但对我来说，这根本不是同人小说的真实面貌，而且我认为，显然对许多在AO3上创作的人来说——至少对我而言——它是我理解自己酷儿身份、在现实生活中准备好之前探索这方面的一个门户。嗯。还有它的社区建设方面，让我接触到了更多酷儿人群，因为我们有相似的共同兴趣。当然，身处《我们的旗帜意味着死亡》这个明确是酷儿剧集的粉丝圈，与很多其他同人小说——那些将非酷儿剧集或媒体酷儿化的创作——还是有些不同的。

And I think that it is such an important part of fanfic that often gets pushed to the side in a lot of mainstream discourse about it, which is like, oh, it's just these, like, horny straight women, they're just writing about stuff. But that's really not the story of fanfic to me, and I I think, obviously, to many of the people who are writing on AO three, at least for me, it was a gateway for me to understand my own queerness and to explore aspects of that before I was ready to do it in real life. Mhmm. And also the community building aspect of it, it has put me in touch with a lot more queer people, because we have a similar shared interest. Now, admittedly, being in the Our Flag Means Death fandom, which is explicitly a queer show, is a little bit different than a lot of fanfic, which is queering shows or other media, which is explicitly not queer.

说实话，对我们很多人来说，这确实是一次相当令人耳目一新的体验。

And that has honestly been a pretty refreshing experience for a lot of us, I think.

哦，肯定的。

Oh, bet.

我

I

肯定的。与其去寻找酷儿元素并试图将其融入，能够书写正典中的酷儿角色，并且得到剧集主创和演员们的支持，真的非常令人兴奋。

bet. instead of, like, looking for queerness and trying to fit it in there, it's been really exciting to be able to write about canon queer characters, and to also have, like, the support of the, the showrunner and the actors.

不仅是支持，还有参与！是的，这种

Not only the support, the participation! Yeah, the

兴奋感。是的，剧集创作者为我们写了一些同人小说让我们阅读。让我们阅读，我认为这在同人圈中是相当独特的体验。是的。但对我来说，这说明了同人小说对酷儿群体有多重要，他们将其视为探索事物的游乐场。

excitedness of it. Yeah, the show creator wrote some fanfic for the For show Blue Sky over us to read. For us to read, which is a pretty unique experience in fandom, I think. Yeah. But so yeah, that's where that goes for me, is how important fanfic is to people who are queer who are interested in this as a playground to explore things.

同样对于非酷儿但可能在思考自己异性恋性向并对此好奇的人来说，它仍然是一个探索那些你或许不会在现实生活中做但想要了解的事情的好地方。你想要书写它、思考它。

And also for people who are not queer but maybe are thinking about their straight sexuality and wondering about it, it's still a great place to explore things that maybe you would not do in real life, but you want to know about it. You want to write about it and think about it.

是的。艾米丽，这让你想到了什么吗？

Yeah. Emily, do you have anything that that makes you think of?

我想说，是的，我也在看这个问题，比如，从浪漫小说这个文类来看。对吧？所以我认为我和维讨论很多的一点，就是我们自己，显然可以写浪漫小说并出版，有那种传统出版的方面，你需要通过渠道让书被编辑、出版并推向市场。而同人小说这边则主要是一种馈赠文化，有点非资本主义且非常参与式的写作途径。这是一种非常独特的参与写作的方式。

I would say, yeah, I'm I'm looking at the question too, like, in terms of, like, the genre of romance writing. Right? So I think one of the things that Vee and I have talked about a lot just, you know, ourselves is, obviously, can write romance and publish it, and there's that traditional publishing aspect of it where, you know, you go through channels to get your book edited and published and put it out there in the market. And then the fan fiction side of it is this really primarily gift culture sort of like noncapitalist and also very participatory avenue for writing. And it's just a really unique way to engage with writing.

而且你还能从读者那里得到即时反馈，这与传统出版也非常不同，我认为这正如维所说，有助于创建那个共享兴趣、想要探索事物并且也只想一起玩乐的社区。就像，这也是其中的一部分。你知道，它不必非常严肃，但也可以很严肃。而且像维刚才说的，我小时候肯定在读同人小说，因为我觉得，我不知道。我在这些主流故事中看不到自己。

And you're also getting like immediate feedback from readers, which is really kind of different than traditional publishing as well, which I think to Vee's point helps create that community of people who share interests and want to explore things and also just have fun together too. Like, that's part of it. It's like, you know, you don't have it has it doesn't have to be super serious, but it can be serious. And like V was saying too, like, I definitely, as a kid, was reading fan fiction because I was like, I don't know. I'm I don't see myself in these mainstream stories.

我很困惑自己该归属于哪里。嗯。我该如何，你知道，我能探索这个吗？而同人小说确实是一种帮助我处理这个问题的方式。所以我认为很多人这样做，通过评论和互动来参与，我认为这在某些方面与传统出版文类的运作方式有些不同。

I'm I'm confused about where I fit into this. Mhmm. How do I you know, can I explore this? And fan fiction was a way to help me, like, process that, really. And so I think people do that a lot and comment on fix and engage with each other that way, which is, I think, a little different than how traditional, like, published genres work in some ways.

是的。这里有很多我想展开的话题。首先是我总会回想起在爱达荷州小镇长大的日子，那时我能接触到的世界可能性非常有限。不仅是我现实生活中认识的人，就连我能看到的电影也很少。我们甚至直到我上高中才有了百视达影碟店。

Yeah. There's so many things I wanna pick up here. The first is that I always think back on my time in my growing up in my small town in Idaho about how there just weren't very many, like, representations of ways to be in the world that were available to me. Not only just in, like, the people I knew in real life, but also even just in, like, the access I had to movies. Like, I just had the we didn't even have a blockbuster until I was in high school.

就像是，

Like, there are,

你知道，

you know,

电视节目很有限。我通过美国在线（AOL）上网。当我回想当时接触到的同人小说形式，我知道怎么登录一些BBS论坛。但很多其实是在AOL上进行角色扮演

limited television. Like, the I access the Internet through AOL. And when I think about, like, the version of fanfic that I knew how to access, I knew how to get to, like, bolt some BBSs. But, like, a lot of it was role playing in AOL

哦，没错。聊天

Oh, yeah. Chat

室聊天室。对吧？

rooms chat rooms. Right?

是的。当年可热闹了。

Yes. Was lit.

我们起床了，

We were up and

我们 是的。

we Yes.

哦，我的

Oh my

天哪。太棒了。是的。

gosh. It was so good. Yeah.

是的。是的。但还有这个想法，我认为对我们很多三十多岁、有着正式工作的人来说，可能一直在尝试弄清楚，好吧，我为自己做什么？比如，我的爱好是什么？我不是想用这个词贬低它。

Yeah. Yeah. But then also just the idea, I think for a lot of us in our thirties who have like J O B jobs and maybe have tried to figure out like, okay, what do I do for me? Like, what is my hobby? And I don't mean to use that word in a demeaning way.

就像，那件我不为了赚钱而做、只是因为我热爱而做的事是什么？我认为这可以成为一个真正的出口，在那里没有那种压力，总是觉得，好吧，如果我擅长它，那我就得想办法，比如，卖掉这本书。是的。

Like, what is the thing I do without monetizing it that I do because I love it? And I think that it can be a real outlet in those terms where there isn't this push to always be like, okay, well, if I'm good at it, then I have to figure out how to, like, sell this book. Yeah.

但那是一个很大的矛盾，我觉得，这有点跑题，但我经常和我父母聊天，说，哦，我刚发表了这篇同人——我确实告诉我父母我写同人小说，我知道不是每个人都这么做。但他们

That's a that's a big tension, though, that I felt like I this is, like, a tangent, but I would always off often talk to my parents and be like, oh, I just published this fan I do tell my parents I write fan fiction, which I know I know not everyone does. But They're

嗯，那个，这很棒。

like, well, that's great.

他们会说，他们会说，哦，那很棒。那你什么时候会真正出版一本像样的，什么时候会真正出版点东西？然后我就说，我正在啊。你知道，不一定非要我们总是要产出，像，并且实现那些，你知道，社会认为是最终目标的东西。不过我要说，当然，出版并在传统出版领域拥有自己的书也没什么错。

They would say they would say, oh, that's great. When are you gonna publish a real like, when are you gonna really publish something? And I'm like, I am. Like, you know, it doesn't have to we we don't always have to produce, like, and achieve what we've you know, society thinks that's the end goal. I I will say, though, of course, there's nothing wrong with, like, get getting published and, like, having your book out there in traditional publishing.

当然，像，那样很棒。但我认为对于同人小说来说，不仅仅是创作作品并发布出来。它关乎那种社区层面的东西。而且它再次减轻了一些压力，我们真的不需要更多压力了。在这个，是的，这个时代。

Of course, like, there's that's great. But I think for fan fiction, it's not only about kind of making the work and putting it out there. It's about that community aspect. And also it takes, again, some of that pressure off, which we don't need any more pressure. In these, yeah, these times.

所以

So

这是我们为了乐趣而做的有趣爱好。

This is our fun hobby that we do for fun.

是的。

Yeah.

当人们为他们的作品感到压力时，我经常这么说。

I say that all the time when people are stressed about their pic.

实际上在我的大丽花小组，我的大丽花Facebook群里大家经常这么说，因为这可能会变得非常狂热，人们喜欢寻找特殊品种。他们就像在说，各位，这些都是高级土豆。就像，这是我们为了乐趣而做的有趣爱好。

People say this all the time actually in my dahlia group, my dahlia Facebook group because it's like very can get very intense and people like hunting for special varietals. They're like, you guys, these are fancy potatoes. Like, this is our fun hobby that we do for fun.

让我们摸摸草，好吧，摸摸土豆。

Let's touch grass, a k, touch potatoes.

是的。有时候这是第二类乐趣，

Yeah. Sometimes it's type two fun,

但我们玩得很开心。是的。本期文化研究节目由Graza赞助。其实它已经是我最喜欢的橄榄油有一段时间了，大概好几年了。它很新鲜。

but we're having fun. Yes. Episode of culture study is brought to you by Graza. It's actually been my favorite olive oil for a little while, like several years. It's fresh.

它从不混合。它来自单一品种的橄榄，即西班牙哈恩出产的皮夸尔橄榄，世界上超过一半的橄榄油产自那里。我最喜欢的是挤压瓶。就像，这是终结所有创新的创新。谁曾想过，哦，我们有这个大块的橄榄油，每次使用它都会顺着瓶边滴得到处都是。

It's never blended. It comes from a single type of olive, the pequole straight out of Hain, Spain, where over half the world's olive oil is produced. My favorite thing is the squeeze bottle. Like, this is the innovation to end all innovations. Who thought, like, oh, we have this giant log of olive oil, and every time you use it, it goes like dribbling all down the side.

挤压瓶用起来非常愉悦。你能准确知道要用多少，没有那种咕嘟咕嘟倒出来时的慌乱，让你觉得，哦，不。它们有三种类型。所以有这个新的油炸型，我现在用它来做豆腐，完美极了。它的烟点高达490华氏度，非常适合油炸、酥炸，以及任何你在炒锅里做的烹饪。

The squeeze bottle is so pleasurable to use. You know exactly how much you're gonna there's no like glug glug glug as it like pours out and you're like, oh, no. And they have three types. So there's this frizzle type, which is new, and I use it to do my tofu now, and it is perfect. It's at a higher four ninety degree smoke point, so it's great for frying, crisping, anything that you would do in a wok.

还有日常烹饪型，用于烤制、腌制、翻炒。我用它来煎蔬菜，比如我的球芽甘蓝之类的。然后是淋洒型，这是一种浓郁、强劲的收尾油，你可以加在沙拉上，蘸面包吃。他们建议甚至淋在冰淇淋上。我不确定。

There's the sizzle, which is for everyday cooking, like roasting, marinating, sauteing. It's what I brown my vegetables in, like my brussels sprouts, that sort of thing. And then there's the drizzle, which is a bold, punchy finishing oil that you can put on salads, you can dip your bread in it. They suggest topping your ice cream with it. I don't know.

昨天，我在煮谷物做文化研究食谱俱乐部的菜谱时，往水里加了些莱姆。效果很好。现在，你可以在Graza网站上首次订单享受10%的折扣。我个人建议购买三件套，就是那三款挤压瓶：Sizzle、Frizzle和Drizzle。

Yesterday, I put some like into the water that was cooking my grains for the recipe I was making for the culture study cookbook club. It worked well. So right now, you can get 10% off your first order on Graza site. And I personally suggest grabbing the trio. That's all three squeezy bottles, the sizzle, the frizzle, and the drizzle.

这样你就能应对各种烹饪风格了。请访问graza.co，使用优惠码culture购买包含Sizzle、Frizzle和Drizzle的三件套即可享受10%折扣，开始烹饪你的下一顿大厨水准的美餐吧。我们的下一个问题来自Deborah，它将帮助我们将同人小说置于更广泛的阅读和出版背景中。

So you're set for every style of cooking. So head to graza.co and use culture to get 10% off the trio, which includes the sizzle, frizzle, and drizzle, and get cooking on your next chef quality meal. Our next question is from Deborah, and it's going to help us situate fan fiction a little bit in the broader landscape of reading and publishing.

我从九十年代中期就开始在WebRings和粉丝自建档案馆阅读同人小说了。我着迷于它走向主流的方式，尤其是我们看到同人小说和传统出版的言情小说，特别是它们如何相互借鉴迭代。我很想听听你们谈谈这个。大写R的言情小说如何因同人小说而改变？言情小说又如何反过来影响同人小说的套路？

I've been reading fanfics since the mid nineties on WebRings and fan hosted archives. I'm obsessed with the way it's going mainstream, especially the ways that we're seeing fan fiction and traditionally published romance in particular iterate off of each other. I'd love to hear you talk about that. How is capital r romance changing because of fanfic? How is romance in turn feeding back into fan fiction tropes?

同人小说的奇点在哪里，或者说我们已经到达了吗？

Where is the fanfic singularity, and or have we already hit it?

我选了这个问题，我的意思是，它在很多方面都是一个很棒的问题。而且，‘同人小说奇点’这个概念简直……

I chose this question I mean, it's a great question in so many ways. But also, fanfic singularity was just

……没有十全十美，也没有任何意见。是的。

had no Tens and no notes. Yeah.

那么，你想从哪里开始聊这个话题呢？

So where do you wanna go with this?

所以我们必须承认，当我们收到这个问题时，我们俩都说，我们不读言情小说。于是我去了一个我所在的Discord群组，那是一个同人圈Discord，问了那里读言情小说的人们的看法。所以我要代表他们的观点，基本上是说受同人小说影响最深的不是言情类型，而是科幻奇幻类。哦，有意思。而且现在有大量作者直接说过，我也发表同人小说。

So we have to confess that when we got this question, both of us said, We don't read romance. And so I went to a Discord that I'm in, which is a fandom Discord, and asked the people there who do read romance what they thought. So I'm gonna represent their ideas, which was basically that romance is not the genre that is being the most influenced by fanfic, it's sci fi fantasy. Oh interesting. And there are a ton of authors right now who have have straight up said, I also publish fanfic.

比如，埃弗里娜·麦克斯韦、芙蕾雅·马斯基、福兹·梅多斯。另一个很好的例子是塔姆森·缪尔，她写了《吉迪恩第九》系列。那个系列里有明显的同人小说参考，有点像奇幻科幻混合体。话虽如此，过去几年有几部主流言情小说是基于Reylo同人文的。所以Reylo是《星球大战》续集中的蕾伊/凯洛·伦配对。

So like, Evereena Maxwell, Freya Marski, Foz Meadows. Another great example is Tamsen Muir, who wrote the Gideon the Ninth series. There's like obvious references to fanfic in that series, which is kind of like a fantasy sci fi hybrid. That being said, in the last few years, there have been several mainstream romance novels which are based on Reylo fics. So Reylo is Rey slash Kylo Ren from the Star Wars sequels.

基于这些的最大的两本言情书是阿里·黑泽尔伍德的《爱情假说》和西娅·关赞的《飓风战争》。这两本最初都是同人文，后来传统出版的。所以那个特定的配对似乎很受欢迎。然后类似的Dramione配对，我不确定我发音对不对，我只读过，但像是德拉科/赫敏的名字。

The two biggest romance books based on those are The Love Hypothesis by Ali Hazelwood and The Hurricane Wars by Thea Gwanzaan. And both of those were originally fixed that were then traditionally published. So that particular pairing, seems to be popular. And then similarly the the Dramione pairing, I'm not sure if I'm pronouncing that right, I've only ever read it, but it's like draycos slash her name.

发音方面，Dramione。Dramione。

Pronunciation though, Dramione. Dramione.

不是像

It's not like

Dramione。就像，你知道，那个抗恶心药。

Dramione. Like like like, you know, the anti nausea drug.

是的。Dramamine，同人小说非常流行。Dramamine。但这两个配对我都会归类为有点像希斯克利夫类型的黑暗 tortured 家伙，然后更像是一个书呆子但强大的女人，能让读者有共鸣。

Yeah. Dramamine, fanfic is very popular. Dramamine. But both both of those ships I would classify as being like kind of like a Heathcliff type like dark tortured guy, and then more of like a nerdy but powerful like woman who can be relatable to the reader.

是的。梅洛迪，你读过一大堆德拉科和赫敏的同人文，我

Right. Melody, you've read a bunch of Dromione Drammamine I've

读过一篇。

read one.

一大堆。一大堆。数量真的很多。

Bunch. Bunch. It was so many.

一篇。大概有800页。

One. Was like 800 pages.

没错。那就是

Yes. That's what

你说的意思。

you meant.

但它是那篇很有名的吗？

But was it the famous one?

它被束缚住了。

It was manacled.

哦，是的。这就对了。

Oh, yes. There we go.

而Melody是一个她是一个巨大的浪漫小说读者。你注意到了什么，如果有的话，比如它是如何借用你从浪漫小说中能认出的任何套路的？哦，对不起。我让你

And Melody is a she's a a huge romance reader. What did you notice, if anything, about, like, how it was borrowing any tropes that you would recognize from romance? Oh. I'm sorry. I'm putting you

为难了。是的。我没准备。

on the spot. Yeah. I didn't prepare.

你你可以想一会儿，我很快知道一些我刚刚注意到、想到的事情，比如标签，以及同人小说是如何分类的——嗯。我注意到的是，在浪漫小说中变得非常突出的东西，就是非常清晰的按套路分类。

You you can think about it for a second while I know quickly that something that I'm just noticing, thinking about, like, tags and how, like, how fics are sorted Mhmm. Is what I've noticed has become much more prominent within romances, which is like the very clear, like, sorting by tropes.

是的。标明它是什么。

Yeah. Signaling what it is.

是的。非常像是，这里是这个如何开始。这里是这个如何开始。就像，你可以你可以真正细化你在寻找的东西

Yes. Very like being like, here is the how this opens. Here's how this opens. Like, you can you can really refine what you're looking for

嗯。嗯。

Mhmm. Mhmm.

并且用一种我认为以前并不总能实现的方式来整理它。但是Melody，回到你这里。

And sort it in a way that I don't think was always possible. But Melody, back to you.

好的。我打算稍微扭转一下这个问题。因为我关注了很多讨论浪漫题材的Bookstagram和TikTok创作者，他们都在谈论——我读作Jeremiah nee。

Okay. I'm gonna actually twist the question just a little bit. In that, I follow a lot of Bookstagrammers and TikTokers who cover romance, and all of them are talking about I pronounce it Jeremiah nee.

哦，那样就合理多了。Jeremiah nee。

Oh, that makes way more sense. Jeremiah nee.

他们都在说，尤其是现在，虽然我大概两年前就读过《Manacled》，但现在所有这些创作者都在说'我现在只读Jermiani'。

They're like, especially like, right, I read manacled maybe like two years ago, but right now, like all of these creators are like, I'm only reading Jermiani right now.

哇。

Wow.

所以我认为这其中有一种元素，就像它是一个舒适的世界。它让人怀念童年，但本质上是一个'敌人变情人'的类型套路。没错。随之而来的是那种舒适感，就像你曾经认为是邪恶的东西不再邪恶。但我不认为这些创作者广泛阅读同人小说。

And so I think there's this element of like, it's a comfortable universe. It's like nostalgic for childhood, but it's inherently an enemies to lovers type trope. Yep. And with that comes with the comfort of like something you thought was evil is no longer evil. But I don't I don't think these creators like, broadly read fan fiction.

所以就有这么一种情况，比如，是的，我读像艾莉·黑泽尔伍德，读梅根·奎因之类的书。同时我也在读专门的杰梅因同人小说。就是那种‘收容’题材的。

So there is like something where it's like, yeah, I read like Ali Hazelwood, I read Megan Quinn or whoever. And I'm also reading specifically Jermaine fan fiction. Containment.

是的。我觉得还有一个很强的元素是，‘我能改变他’。你知道吗？就像，这是一个永恒的主题套路。

Yeah. I think it's also, like, a strong element of, I can fix him. You know? Like, that's an everlasting trope.

没错。我认为言情小说和同人小说在某种程度上有着共生关系，因为当我想到同人小说的套路时——其实‘套路’这个词有点同人圈的味道，就像TV Tropes网站那样。是的，TV Tropes。所以，你知道，敌人变情人、傻瓜变情人（我的最爱），这些是你用来归类大多数关系的类别。

Yes. Think romance and fanfic have, like, a symbiotic relationship in a way because when I think about fan fiction tropes and so when we think when we tropes is kind of a fanfic y word. Like TV tropes. So, yeah, TV tropes. So, you know, enemies to lovers, idiots to lovers, my favorite, categories that you would place mostly relationships in.

而且我觉得很多言情小说都在使用这些套路。很多这些套路对人们来说普遍具有吸引力。所以我们从言情小说中借鉴它们，这并不是说我们一定读言情小说，但确实很多言情小说的故事线会遵循与同人小说相似的轨迹。我认为这是因为这些套路在某种程度上是通用的，它们能跨越媒体形式产生共鸣。

And I think a lot of romance novels use those tropes. And a lot of people a lot of those tropes are sort of, like, universally exciting to people. And so we borrow them from from romance, which isn't to say that we read romance necessarily, but certainly, like, the story arcs of a lot of romance novels will follow similar arcs as fan fiction does. And I think it's because those tropes are kind of universal in a way. They, like, relate across media.

对。这对我来说很合理，它们会这样发展，比如‘我希望我能改变他’这种想法非常真实。

Right. And that that makes sense to me that they would then like this, like, I wish I can fix him type of thing is is so real.

没错。我刚刚想到的另一件事是，我看到的另一个现象是《ACOTAR》的同人小说。是的。所以我觉得这完全印证了我们这集开头讨论的观点：有一个让我无法停止思考的世界，我只是想从中获得更多。嗯。

Exactly. The other thing that I was just thinking of is that the other thing that I've seen pop up is ACOTAR fan fiction. Yeah. And so I think it very much goes to what we were talking about at the beginning of the episode of like, there is this world that I can't stop thinking about and I just want more out of it. Mhmm.

是的。我想补充的最后一点是，我觉得有趣的是，言情小说主要发展异性恋CP，而科幻奇幻则偏向酷儿CP。这只是一个我注意到的有趣观察，我没有更深入的想法，但我想指出来。

Yeah. I I think one final point I wanna add on that is that it's interesting to me that romance is largely going with these straight ships, whereas sci fi fantasy is going with the queer ships. And and that 's just an interesting observation that I have to say. I don't have further thought on it, but I wanted to note it.

是的。嗯，关于ACOTAR同人小说的一点是，至少据我所知梅洛迪的情况，很多作品实际上是酷儿向的，因为原著中没有明确的酷儿元素。而且它也非常单一配偶制。比如在某一本书中有一个情节很明显地暗示两个男角色应该和其中一个女角色发生关系，就是说他们应该来个三人行。

Yeah. Well, one thing about the ACOTAR fanfic, at least as far as I know Melody, is that a lot of it actually is queer because there is no queerness in the books explicit queerness. And there's also like, it's very monogamous. Like there's a place in one of the books where it's very clear that two of the guys should have sex with one of the girls. Like that they should have a threesome.

哦对。没错。而且据说还有遗失的页章，那些遗失的内容被重新构思了，但是，嗯，就是这样。

Oh yeah. Yeah. And and supposedly there's like lost pages and those lost pages have been reimagined, but like and that Yeah.

我读过的那些都是，呃，相当淫乱的，比如五个人挤在一个热水浴缸里。就是那种。所以是的。没错。

The ones I've read are all like, filthy, like five people in a hot tub. Nice. Kind of thing. So Yes. Yeah.

是的。是的。是的。

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

好的。下一个问题有些相关，而且我认为能帮助我们进入关于公众看法的讨论。这个问题来自雷安。

Okay. Next question is somewhat related and also I think will help us get into the conversation about public perception. This one comes from Rayann.

作为一个从同人小说世界起步、最近才涉足言情小说领域的人，感觉同人小说受到更多非议。是这样吗？如果是，为什么？我仍然是一个狂热的同人小说读者，但除非你身处在线同人社区，否则在现实生活中大家谈论它时都非常隐晦。言情小说以前也是这样吗，但现在它复兴了，就更被普遍接受了？你预见到有一天你可以直接告诉别人你喜欢读同人小说，而不需要解释或辩护吗？

As someone who started in the fanfic world and only recently got into romance, fan fiction feels like it gets more flack. Is this the case and if so, why? I'm still an avid fanfic reader but unless you're in online communities about fanfics, everyone speaks really coded about it in real life. Was this true of romance before, but now that it's having a comeback, it's more normalized? Do you anticipate a time where you could simply tell people that you like to read fanfic and not have to explain it or defend it?

所有问题中的核心问题。

The question of all questions.

确实。确实。

Truly. Truly.

哦，天哪。不过，这真是个很好的问题。我的意思是，我认为浪漫小说和同人小说在世界上都被污名化了，在我看来，这主要是因为主要是AFAB（出生时被指定为女性）和酷儿群体被这些东西所吸引。我们想读浪漫小说，我们想读和写同人小说。而在我们的社会中，AFAB和酷儿的经历并不被高度重视。

Oh, man. Man, this is a good question, though. I mean so I think both romance and fan fiction have been stigmatized out in the in the world because in my opinion, it's mostly because it's afab and queer folks who are gravitating towards these things. We wanna read romance and we wanna read and write fan fiction. And the AFAB and queer experience in our society isn't super valued.

是的。经常被贬低。所以我认为，本质上，女士们喜欢这个事实，比如我妈妈真的会读浪漫小说。我看到她梳妆台上堆着一摞摞的书，我可以想象某些人会在一旁说，呃，这些女士和她们的浪漫小说。就像，哦，天哪，完全没错。

Yep. Is often denigrated. And so I think just inherently, the fact that ladies like, my mom literally reads romance. I see, like, the stacks on on her dresser, and I can just picture certain people's side saying, ugh, these ladies and their romance. Like, oh my Totally.

你知道吗？这几乎可以追溯到简·奥斯汀的时代。比如，现在我们认为简·奥斯汀的书是伟大的文学作品，它们确实是。但我想，它们可能也遇到过类似的情况，因为它们讲述的是浪漫关系，而不是，你知道，某个男人在海上实现自我。所以，你知道，它就不重要。

You know? And it's a it's almost like goes goes back to Jane Austen. Like, now we think of Jane Austen books as these, you know, great works literature, which they are. But they, I think, probably had a similar thing where they're about romantic relationships, and they're not about, you know, some dude actualizing himself on the sea. So how you know, it's not important.

所以，是的。我认为它们一直以那种方式被污名化。而且我认为同人小说还因为不是传统出版而进一步被贬低，所以人们有这种看法，比如，同人小说有一种业余品质。而且，对，对。

So Yeah. I think they've always been sort of stigmatized in that way. And I think fan fiction has had this further flakification because it is not traditional publishing, and so people have this sort of opinion, like, there's an amateur quality to fan fiction. And Right. Right.

对。它是一种爱好。你不是真的——而且我的父母，就像我以前说过的，我自己的父母会说，嗯，你什么时候才能真正出版点东西？我就想，你知道，我认为有那种看法，觉得同人小说不如原创小说写作或原创作品。

Right. It's a hobby. You're not you're not really and my parents, like I've said before, my own parents were like, well, when are you gonna really publish something? I'm like, you know, I think there's that perception that fan fiction is sort of less than original fiction writing or original.

不合法的，对吧？就像，甚至因为它不是正典，就像，在那个意义上它是不合法的，但然后它也没有通过传统出版渠道被合法化。

Illegitimate, right? Like, even the fact that it's not, like, canon, like, it's illegitimate in that capacity, but then it's also not legitimized through traditional publishing outlets.

没错。是的。所以我觉得这来自于那种双重打击——厌女症、恐同症，是的，还有资本主义。你懂吧？

Exactly. Yeah. And so that's kinda where I feel like it comes from is that double whammy of misogyny, homophobia Yep. And capitalism. You know?

是的。完全正确。

Yeah. Exactly.

就是我们今天面临的三重压迫。但我觉得，现如今，我个人会告诉所有人我写同人小说，但这取决于你是谁、你在哪个社群、你对周围人的舒适度。因为我确实认识我同人圈里和其他地方的一些人，他们有非常正当的理由不愿意告诉别人自己写同人小说，因为

The the trifecta of oppression that we that we have today. So but I think but I think we, you know, nowadays, I personally tell everyone I write fan fiction, but I think it depends on who you are, what community you're in, your comfort level with the people around you. Because I I definitely know people in my fandom and and elsewhere who wouldn't feel comfortable telling people they write fan fiction for very valid reasons because

是的。

Yeah.

我觉得这件事本质上会引发一个问题，比如，等等，你是，你知道，你是酷儿吗？或者你在做什么？就像，你是怎么想的？所以如果你不在一个安全的环境里，觉得可以谈论这个，那谈论起来确实挺吓人的。但我个人是所有人都知道我写同人小说，而且我很乐意和任何问起的人谈论它。所以，是的。

It's something that I think does inherently open up a question like, well, wait. Are you, you know, are you queer or what are you doing? Like, how how do you think so it's if you're not in a safe environment where you feel like you can talk about that, it does feel pretty scary to talk about it. But I I personally am everybody knows I write fan fiction, and I'm happy to talk about it to anyone who asks. So Yeah.

Vee，你怎么看？

Vee, what do you think?

我完全同意Emily说的关于它为什么被污名化以及为什么被认为是一种业余爱好的所有观点。我十几岁的时候就觉得非常不公平，我读了那么多明显是AFAB作者写的关于《星球大战》的同人小说，然而几乎所有的《星球大战》小说——除了我想是原扩展宇宙（现在叫什么？EU小说，现在已经不算正史了）中的一本——都是男人写的，这对我来说是一个如此鲜明的对比。就我个人而言，我不会分享我的真名，也不会告诉我公共生活中的人我写同人小说。这对我来说不是什么大事，但就像Emily说的，有时候你只是不想让别人对你做出那些假设。

I agree with all of what Emily said about, like, why it's stigmatized and why it's kinda considered to be an amateur thing. It used to strike me when I was a teenager as deeply unfair that I read so much fanfic that was clearly by AFAB authors about Star Wars, and yet almost all of the Star Wars novels, all but I think one of the original extended, what's it called now? What are the EU novels, which are now not canon anymore, they were written by men, and that was just such a stark contrast to me. Personally, I do not share my real name or tell people in my public life that I write fanfic. It's not really a big deal to me, but like Emily was saying, sometimes you just don't want people to make those assumptions about you.

我想要一个实验的空间，比如我工作中管理的那些人并不知道的那种。

I want to have a space to experiment that the people I manage at work, for example, don't know about.

对。对。

Right. Right.

所以是的。

So Yes.

是的。不，这完全说得通。我觉得，人们做出的很多假设都是基于他们某时某地读到的某段话，对吧？根本不是第一手经验。

Yes. No, that totally makes sense. I think, like, there are a lot of the assumptions that people make are based on, like a paragraph that they read somewhere sometime. Right? Like, not firsthand experiences at all.

当人们说，哦，写作很差。我就想，你读过大多数非虚构作品吗？一般来说，正规出版界的编辑工作其实很少。我觉得在很多情况下写作水平明显更好。是的。

When people say like, oh, the writing is bad. I'm like, have you read most nonfiction works? Like, just generally, like there is very little editing that goes legitimate publishing world. Like I think that the writing is significantly better in so many cases. Yeah.

甚至还有那种认为每篇同人文都完全是色情内容的观念，对吧？

Or even like the idea that every single fic is like absolute, like it's just all porn. Right?

没错。对。

Exactly. Right.

我认为这非常普遍。而且，确实有一些火辣性感的内容，但并不是每一篇都这样。

Which I think is very prevalent. And, there's some hot sexy stuff, but it's not every single

那当然不是全部。是的。

That's certainly not all of it. Yeah.

嗯，即使是这样，我认为是的。就像在美国，有这样一种——这只是我的个人经历——有一种纯洁的观念，我们会觉得，文学绝不能谈论那些不雅的部分。完全正确。完全正确。

Well And even if it is, I think Yeah. Like in in America, there's this kind of and this is just my experience. There's this this kind of purity thing where we're like, well, we mustn't literature mustn't talk about the naughty bits. Totally. Totally.

你知道，我认为人类的性是非常酷、有趣而且真的很好玩的事情。我认为能够探索这一点很棒，因为在我们社会里，尤其是作为一个女性——我自认为是女性，我是粉丝，我在成长过程中没有被鼓励谈论性。所以我们能在同人小说中接触到这些，这很好。当然，我不是说你不能在传统出版中谈论它，但要进行那些讨论确实有很多步骤和障碍要克服，而这些在同人小说中可能不存在，因为你可以直接写然后立刻发布，你知道吧？是的。

You know, I think human sexuality is really cool and interesting and, like, really fun. And and I think it's awesome to be able to explore that because we don't really get a lot of avenues in our society, especially as, you know, I I identify as a woman. I'm a fab, and I wasn't encouraged to talk about sexuality as a you know, growing up. And so the fact that we can access that in fan fiction, which, again, I'm not not to say that you can't talk about it in traditional publishing, but there's certainly a lot of steps and hoops to jump through in order to kinda have those discussions that maybe don't really exist in fan fiction because you can literally write and push post immediately, you know? Yeah.

而且想想有多少文学小说是男性写的关于女性的性爱场景，你知道，那些被认为是文学小说的巅峰。我读过一些很糟糕的。

And and think about how much literary fiction is like men writing these sex scenes about women that are, you know, and those are considered like, that's the height of literary fiction. I've read some bad ones.

是的，绝对是这样。

Yes, absolutely.

然而，女性写这些东西、读这些东西就被认为是不合法的，但如果是一个男人写的，就成了高级文学。所以这种情况正在有所改变，但我同意艾米丽的观点，确实有这种感觉，认为你不能通过性来展现真正的角色发展或情节推进，而我们这些活着的人都明白，很多角色发展和情节发展正是因为性而发生的。感觉这些书或任何媒体都因为一些奇怪的道德规则而缺失了人类经验的这一大块。

Whereas it's like considered illegitimate for women to write these things and to read these things, but it's like high literature if a man is writing it. So that's changing somewhat, but I agree with Emily that there is definitely this feeling that you can't have real character development or real plot movement through sex, which I think all of us who are alive understand that a lot of character development and plot development occurs because of that for ourselves. It feels like these books are just or whatever media is just missing this chunk of the human experience because of some weird morality rules.

是的。好的。下一个问题与这些内容相关，来自Peel。我非常想把它包括进来，因为我有学术背景。那么，我们开始吧。

Yeah. Okay. This next question is kind of along these lines, and it comes from Peel. And I very I I wanted to include it because of my history as an academic. So here we go.

我想这更像是一个评论。我觉得当学者们谈论同人小说时，在很多情况下都显得很疏离和带有评判性。通常，参与者中没有人真正参与过同人圈，或者即使有，他们也早已停止写作或参与，并且往往对此感到羞耻。你认为人们为什么会以这种方式对待这个特定的话题？是因为它的名声是这是给 teenage girls 的吗？

This is more of a comment, I suppose. I feel like when academics talk about fan fiction, it is quite alienating and judgy in many cases. Usually, there's no one involved who's ever been in fandom, or if they have, they have since stopped writing or participating and tend to be quite ashamed about it. Why do you think that people approach this specific topic this way? Is it because the reputation is that this is for teenage girls?

顺便说一下，与我一起写作的许多人都是成年人，他们已经从事这个多年甚至几十年了。

For the record, many of the people I write with are adults who've been doing this for years or even decades.

好的。我们在开头提到过，像AO3有一个学术期刊。

Alright. So we gestured to this in the beginning that like AO three has an academic journal.

是的。

Yeah.

我我只会说，当我还在学术界时，有一个新兴领域叫做 aka fandom。哦。Aka fandom，这是一个糟糕的

And I I will just say that my experience when I was back in the academy, there was an emerging field called aka fandom. Oh. Aka fandom, which is a horrible

我不确定我是否喜欢它。

I don't know if I love it.

这有点像做梦一样。

It's kinda like dream.

听起来像是保险公司之类的。

It sounds like an insurance company or something.

我不知道。

I don't know.

是的。对。没错。但那是在试图说明，作为你所研究领域的实践者确实拥有真正的力量，并且要打破某种理解，比如无论你分析什么，你都必须与之保持一定的距离。那么你在这方面有什么经历呢？

Yes. Yeah. Yeah. But that was trying to suggest that there is real power in being a practitioner of the thing that you study and to collapse some of the the understanding that, like, whatever you are analyzing that you have to have this significant distance from it in some way. So what what is your experience with this?

嗯，在你提到最后那点关于融合经历之前，我其实有一个答案。我的背景是人类学高等学位，当然，人类学中一个长期存在的争论是，你真的是这些研究对象的观察者吗？对吧？或者你不是？我认为我们都坚定地站在一边，即你不仅仅是一个观察者，不存在所谓的客观观察者。

Well, I actually had one answer until you said that last bit about collapsing the experience. My background is that I have a higher degree in anthropology, and of course, a long standing debate in anthropology is, are you actually an observer of these subjects? Right. Or are you not? And I think we're all coming down hard on the side of, you are not just an observer, there is no such thing as an objective observer.

对维多利亚时代的人说声抱歉，确实不存在。但我有点惊讶听到这个问题，因为粉丝研究在学术界是一个相当活跃和蓬勃发展的领域。所以我有点好奇那个人想的是哪种学术界。通过Our Flag粉丝圈，我遇到了几位从事粉丝研究的学者，他们既写关于那个粉丝圈的文章，也参与其中，听他们谈论如何区分我在教学生、在会议上做报告或发表论文时的身份，以及我在为幕后视频尖叫时的身份，这挺有趣的。所以也许学术界的某些角落对此非常不屑一顾，我确信有，我们肯定现在脑子里都有那个人的形象。

Sorry to the Victorians, there is not. But I was a little surprised to hear that question because fan studies is a pretty active and flourishing field in academia. So I'm sort of wondering what type of academia that person was thinking of. Through the Our Flag fandom, I have met several people who are academics in fan studies who, like, write about that fandom and participate in the fandom, and it's kinda interesting to hear them talk about, like, how do I separate out my persona that I'm, like, teaching my students or presenting at a conference or publishing a paper, and then also this persona where I'm screaming about this behind the scenes video or something. So maybe there are some corners of academia that are very dismissive of it, I'm sure there are, sure we all have a picture in our head right now of what that person looks like.

但是嗯。总的来说，我认为学术界有一个蓬勃发展的领域，里面充满了也在研究作为粉丝是什么感觉的粉丝。

But Mhmm. In general, I think that there is a flourishing field of academia full of fans who are also studying what it's like to be a fan.

我会说这反映了我的经历，研究粉丝文化的人并不会说坏话。

I would say that that that mirrors my experience in terms of the people who are in fan studies are not talking shit about

嗯哼。

it. Mhmm.

对吧？是那些研究媒体其他领域的人，比如还在研究中世纪法国电影之类的。

Right? It's people who are in the other corners of media who are, like, still studying somehow, like mid century French cinema Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

是那些人在说坏话。对吧？因为他们不认为这个学科领域是合法的。我还会说这些人中可能有些是英语博士。

Who are who are talking shit. Right? Because they don't think of that corner of the discipline as legitimate. I would also say that some of these people are probably English PhDs.

我认识很多

I know a lot

我很喜欢很多英语博士，但有些人认为媒体研究不属于英语学科范畴，这种想法有些糟糕。所以，是的。

I love a lot of English PhDs, but there is some shittiness on the part of people who think that media studies did not belong under the umbrella of English as a discipline. So Yeah.

我想是的。我大学学的是写作、出版和文学专业。我觉得同人小说在我的专业里不太受欢迎，因为人们总喜欢把事物分门别类、框定界限。是的，所以同人小说不符合传统写作的框架，因为它不遵循相同的步骤和所有这些，你知道的，条条框框。

I I think so. I went to college for writing and publishing and literature. And I don't think fan fiction was very welcome in in that major at my college because it just they people love to put things into silos and boxes. Yeah. And so fan fiction doesn't fit into the box of traditional writing because it doesn't follow the same steps and all these, you know, this, that, and the other thing.

所以我不确定是否一定是敌意的，但确实，我不能在我的写作工作坊里谈论我的同人小说创作。我必须讨论原创作品，因为那才是真正的写作。所以我认为，是的。英语博士那块，我不认为每个英语博士都这样，但肯定是那些非常习惯于一种文学和写作生产方式的人。差不多就是这样。

And so I I don't know if it was hostile necessarily, but certainly, I didn't you know, I couldn't talk about my fan fiction writing in my writing workshops. I had to talk about original work because that's the real writing. So I think Yeah. The English PhD piece I don't think, you know, every English PhD, but certainly people who are really used to one way of producing literature and writing. And that's kind of the way.

是的。你知道，这是一种冲突，因为同人小说并不真正遵循很多那些规则。我认为这本质上是它的真实面貌。但我觉得研究媒体的人真的能理解，因为写同人小说就像是你对媒体超级兴奋的终极标志。所以，当你在谈论媒体、思考媒体研究时，这样的人是很好的研究对象。

Yep. You know, it it it's a conflict because fan fiction doesn't really ascribe to a lot of those rules. And I think that's just inherently what it really is. But I think people who study media, really get it because fan fiction is like writing fan fiction is like the ultimate sign that you are, like, so excited about media. And, like so that's a great person to look at when you're talking about media and, like, thinking about media studies.

是的。

Yeah.

是的。而且他们也非常投入于思考和讨论那件事。我的意思是，这部分也仅仅是介于只对事物的创作和事物本身感兴趣的人之间的分歧，就像它是一个独立的物品。然后是那些对人们如何从那个事物中创造意义非常感兴趣的人。

Yeah. And who are like very invested in thinking and talking about that thing too. Like, mean, part of this is just also a divide between people who are only interested in the creation of the thing and the thing as itself, Like it's a discrete item. And then people who are very interested in how people make meaning out of that thing.

是的。

Yes.

这被广泛理解为接受研究。对我来说，这一直都更有趣。制作部分作为过程记录是有趣的，但然后事物一旦进入世界，它以各种方式获得自己的生命，那是无穷无尽的，对吧？就像，有那么多不同的版本。

It's a broadly understood as like reception studies. And for me, that's always been more interesting. The production part is interesting in terms of like a process piece, but then like the various ways that the thing takes on a life of its own once it goes out into the world, like, that's endless. Right? Like, there's so many iterations.

是的。

Yeah.

而且我觉得还有，就是，我不知道是谁决定的，但不知怎的，文化和社会决定了什么是高雅艺术，什么只是给大众娱乐的东西。那些大家只是图个开心、看着玩的东西，嗯，好像就不值得被认真研究之类的。但其实不是这样，我们完全可以讨论漫威宇宙。

And I think there's also, like, I don't know if it's I don't know who decides this, but somehow culture and society decides what is, like, high art and what's just for everybody else and everyone's having fun. And, like, those things that everyone's just having fun and watching Mhmm. Are somehow not really worthy of this, like Right. This, you know, studying and things like that. And it's like, no, we can talk about the Marvel Universe.

就像，这没问题。你知道，这一切都在推动文化，推动文化。这是人类经验的体现。但我觉得出于某种原因，比如，我不知道，你可以看到，《黑道家族》在某个时期可能也不是。

Like, that's fine. You know, it's it's it's all It's driving culture. It's driving culture. It's human experiences. But I think for some reason, like, I don't know, you could see, like, The Sopranos at one point probably wasn't.

而现在突然之间，随着足够多的同行认可，它好像就越过了门槛，变成了那种人们会写论文研究的高大上的东西。嗯。我觉得在人们认为值得研究和不值得研究的东西之间，存在这种奇怪的区分。你知道吗？

And now all of a sudden, with enough peers, it's, like, crossed the threshold into this, like, high, like, thing that people are writing, you know, dissertations about and stuff. Mhmm. I I think there's this weird, like, separation between what folks consider to be worthy of study and not. You know?

没错。是的，我的意思是，小说最初也只是女性读的消遣玩意儿。

Yep. Yeah, I mean like novels were originally just silly things that women read.

涂鸦的女人，对吧？

Scribbling women, right?

涂鸦的女人。

Scribbling women.

是的，我认为那种认为流行文化不应该被研究的观点已经过时甚至消亡了。好吧，但确实还有一些人坚持这种看法。今天的节目由Ollie赞助。我的狗狗们简直痴迷到不行。

Yeah, no and I think that that like the the opinion even that like popular culture shouldn't be studied is one that is retiring and or dead. Okay. But there are still some people who who hold on to that view. Today's episode is sponsored by Ollie. My dogs are so obsessed.

每天晚上6:30之后，只要我一开冰箱，它们就会立刻跑过来，端坐着全神贯注。它们太爱这种食物了，简直离谱。我甚至担心哪天断粮了它们会绝食抗议。味道真的好到不可思议。

When I open the fridge at any point after 06:30PM, they start just like they come over and they sit attentively. They love this food so much. It is ridiculous. Like, I fear the day that I run out, like, they're gonna go on hunger strike. It's so incredibly good.

吃完后，Bev会把碗叼到她的小狗垫子上，像在深情地希望能再榨取一丝余味。Ollie提供洁净新鲜营养，有五种不同口味，就算最挑食的狗狗也能找到心头好。我家狗每种口味都吃得津津有味。

Afterwards, Bev takes her bowl and brings it over to, like, her little dog cushion and just, like, lovingly, like, wishes that she could extract a tiny bit more flavor. Ollie is clean, fresh nutrition. It comes in five different flavors. Even for the pickiest eaters, there's something in there that they're gonna love. My dog looks like every single flavor that has been put in front of them.

它采用最优质人用级食材在美国厨房制作，不含填充剂和防腐剂，全是真材实料。最明显的证明就是狗狗粪便量显著减少，说明没有添加膨化剂。购买流程很简单：登录网站，为爱犬建立档案。

And it's made in US kitchens from the highest quality human grade ingredients. There's no fillers, there's no preservatives, just real food. And this is evidenced by the fact that their poops are significantly smaller, which means there is no bulking agent going on. So this is how it works. You go onto the site and you introduce them to your pup.

填写30秒快速问卷，他们会根据狗狗体重、活动量和健康信息定制膳食计划。首次订购会收到迎新礼盒，包含两周份粮餐、时尚实用的免费储粮罐，以及换粮过渡指南。Ollie还是唯一提供无限次常规健康筛查的鲜粮品牌，助狗狗开启健康快乐生活。它们值得最新鲜优质的食物。

So you fill out this little quiz, it's like thirty seconds, and they create a customized meal plan based on your dog's weight, activity level, other health info. And then you get a welcome kit. So the first time you order, they send out this first box and it has two weeks worth of meals, a free storage container, which is actually very svelte and like not ugly, and a guide of how to gradually switch them over to their new diet. Ollie is also the only fresh dog food that comes with unlimited routine health screenings so you can get your pup on track to live their healthiest and happiest life. Dogs deserve the best, and that means fresh, healthy food.

访问ollie.com/culture，填写狗狗信息，使用优惠码culture订阅即可享受迎新礼盒六折优惠。首盒还享受满意保证，若不满意全额退款。请认准0llie.com/culture，输入优惠码culture享首盒六折。

Head to ollie.com/culture. Tell them all about your dog, and then use culture to get 60% off your welcome kit when you subscribe today. Plus they offer this happiness guarantee on the first box. If you're not completely satisfied, you'll get your money back. That's 0llie.com/culture and enter code culture to get 60% off your first box.

下一个问题让我特别兴奋，因为这正好结合了我对名人研究等领域的兴趣。现在让我们听听Beth的提问。

Our next question, I am so excited to think about this one because it's an overlap of my interests in, like, celebrity studies and all of this. So let's hear from Beth.

你对基于名人同人小说的浪漫小说有什么看法？我向我丈夫解释说，市面上有很多很多以亚当·德赖弗为原型的浪漫小说，他大吃一惊。你认为为什么会发生这种情况？你认为被用作角色原型的名人对此有何感受？我们应该在意他们的感受吗？

What are your thoughts on romance novels that are based on celebrity fan fiction? I explained to my husband that there are many, many Adam Driver romance novels out there, and he was flabbergasted. Why do you think this has happened? How do you think it feels for the celebrities that are used as characters? And should we care about how they feel about it?

这个问题问得好。首先我应该提到的是，据说这个话题存在很多争议。据说有关于哈里·斯泰尔斯和奥利维亚·王尔德的同人小说。嗯。

Such a good question. The the thing that I should mention first is that, the idea of you is supposedly there's a lot of controversy about this. It's supposedly Harry Styles and like Olivia Wilde fanfic. Mhmm.

我喜欢的是奥利维亚·王尔德，只是哈里·斯泰尔斯，别管我。

I love Not Olivia Wilde, just Harry Styles and ignore me.

哦，还有玛丽苏式的自我代入。自我代入。是的。

Oh, and have Mary Sue Self insert. Self insert. Yeah.

但也有一些像奥利维亚·王尔德那样的年长角色，好像这里有一些奥利维亚·王尔德的相似之处。但没错，你说得对。不，你说得对，梅洛迪。我喜欢贝丝最后说的那句话，我们应该在意这个吗？

But also like older like Olivia Wilde, like, think that there's like some Olivia Wilde similarities going on here. But yes, you're right. No. You're right, Melody. I love that this that Beth said at the end, should we care about that?

是的。我们应该吗？我还要提到我最喜欢的乔治·克鲁尼的轶事之一，因为我到处都找不到它，但我记得很清楚，就像某个采访者问他是否在意关于他是同性恋的名人八卦。他说，如果这能让人们开心，我为什么不想让他们相信呢？

Yeah. Should we? And also going to bring up one of my favorite apocryphal George Clooney stories because I cannot find it anywhere, but I remember it vividly, which was like some interviewer asking if he cared about celebrity gossip that he was gay. And he was like, why wouldn't I want people to believe that if it made them happy?

那太棒了。乔治。

That's great. George.

不，乔治，没关系。是的。就像如果那样，如果那样能让某人在生活中体验那种现实，对我来说并不冒犯。是的。但我一直认为，这就像名人应该如何看待人们想象他们生活或角色生活的任何方式那样。

Don't George, care. Yeah. Like if that if that gives someone pleasure to, like, live that reality in their lives, it's not offensive to me. Yeah. But that I've always thought of as, like, the way that a celebrity should think about any of the ways that people imagine their lives or their characters' lives or anything like that.

但你怎么看？

But what do you think?

是的。所以这个问题有点像，哦，基于同人小说的言情小说，但实际上，我认为在某些言情小说中你可以辨认出，哦，这可能是关于那个名人的。但在同人小说中，有一个非常真实的东西叫做真人同人小说。是的。是的。

Yeah. I so the question that kind of is like, oh, romance novels based on fan fiction about but so it's really like, I think you can identify in certain romance novels, oh, this probably is about the celebrity. But in fan fiction, there is a very real thing called real person fan fiction. Yeah. Yeah.

而且它就在我们的档案馆里。你可以去那里，查找关于真实名人的同人小说。实际上，在乐队圈（关于乐队的粉丝圈）有一个巨大的运动，很多K-pop乐队和其他乐队，他们写关于这些音乐家和乐队歌手的同人小说。这是一个有点……不同的人对此有不同的感受，取决于你在粉丝圈问谁。

And it is on archive of our own. You can go on there, and you can look up fan fiction about actual real celebrities. And and actually, there is a huge movement in bandom, which is fandom about bands. A lot of k pop bands and other things where they write fan fiction about this, you know, musicians and singers in the band. And it's something that is a little it's it's people feel differently about it depending on who you ask in fandom.

但我认为我们经常看到的是，名人并不是真正意义上的人，就比如我认识你，我在家里和你聊天，和你谈论你的兴趣。在我们的媒体景观中，存在这些原型和角色。它们在很多方面并不一定是立体的，除非你真的了解这个人，真的喜欢这个人，并且知道关于他们的一切。但总的来说，很难那样了解别人。而名人离我们大多数人如此遥远，以至于他们确实感觉像是，我不知道。

But I think what we often see is that celebrities aren't really real people in terms of, I know you, and I talked to you on the, you know, in our house, and I talked to you about your interest. There's sort of these archetypes and characters that are part of our media landscape. And they're not necessarily three-dimensional in in many ways, unless you're really, you know, you know this person and you're really into that person and know everything about them. But it's hard to know other people in that way, period. And celebrities are so far removed for many of us that they do feel like I don't know.

我不想说超级英雄，因为那像是给他们太多赞誉了。

I don't wanna say superheroes because that's that's, like, giving them too much.

但是，就像不。他们是形象。是虚构的角色。

But, like No. They're they're images. Fictional characters.

确实如此。形象，对吧？就像，存在一种距离，比如，名人作为一个真实的人，会上厕所、过日常生活，对吧？

They do. Images. Right? Like, a distance between, like, who the celebrity is as a person who, like, goes to the bathroom and, like, lives a life. Right?

就像是，然后还有他们精心打造的形象，这是对他们身份的一种非常精心策划的理解。

Like and then there's, like, their their image, which is a very carefully curated understanding of who they are.

是的。嗯。

Yes. Mhmm.

我认为人们创作这些虚构故事是基于那个形象。它们不是基于，比如，你不会写一篇同人小说说，哦，我和哈里·斯泰尔斯上过高中，所以我了解他，这是我写关于他的故事。对吧？我还总是想到，粉丝杂志过去有很多不同的故事，总是由公关人员撰写，并声称是明星本人所写。所以就像是玛丽莲·梦露写一篇关于她是什么样的妻子的故事。

And I think that what people are making these fictions about, they are based on that image. They're not based on like, this is not you don't write a fanfic about, like, oh, I went to high school with, I don't know, Harry Styles, and thus I know him, and here's my story that I'm writing about him. Right? And I always think too about the fan magazines used to have so many different stories that were always written by press agents and said to be authored by the star itself. So it would be like Marilyn Monroe writing a story about like what kind of wife she was.

实际上，那些就像是公关人员在写关于玛丽莲·梦露形象的粉丝小说，因为它是基于他们希望公众如何理解她。对吧？那些话或那些事从来都不是玛丽莲·梦露真正写的或说的。所以人们总是在构建对这些人的虚构理解。只是他们的面孔、他们在电影中的行为方式等等，成为了素材来源。

And really, those are like it's like the press agent writing a fanfic about the image of Marilyn Monroe because it was based on what they wanted the public to understand her to be. Right? It was never actually Marilyn Monroe writing any of those words or saying any of those things. So people are always building, like, imaginary understandings of who these people are. It's just that their their faces and the way that they behave in their movies and all of that sort of thing, like, becomes the source material.

是的。而且作为名人总有一种表演的成分，尤其是演员或音乐家。你在展示自己。我在想哈里·斯泰尔斯，他以大卫·鲍伊的方式，大卫·鲍伊实际上创造了他所扮演的角色。嗯。

Yeah. And and there's always a performance aspect of being a celebrity, especially if an actor or a musician. You're putting yourself out there. I'm thinking of Harry Styles in the way he Harry Styles, like, by way of David Bowie, David Bowie literally created characters that he that he portrayed. Mhmm.

他以特定的方式打扮来与之契合。所以这就像是一直在发生的事情的一个强化版本，名人有时就是这种独特的角色。话虽如此，如果人们说，我对真人同人小说不太舒服，这不是我的菜，那完全没问题。

And he dressed up in certain ways to align with that. And so that is like a heightened version of what actually happens all the time where celebrities are these kind of, like, distinct characters sometimes. Now that said, it's totally fine if people are like, I'm not really comfortable with real person fan fiction. It's not my thing. Totally fine.

但我确实尝试过这样想：人们只是在玩弄他们在电视屏幕和手机上不断看到的这些角色。是的。现在棘手的是当你面对名人并说，看看有人写的关于你的这个东西。那是绝对不行的。在粉丝圈中，我们真正努力做的一件事是确保这种情况不会发生，因为当你用那种东西面对别人时，会让名人难堪，也在某种程度上贬低了粉丝。是的。

But I definitely, have tried to kind of think of it that way as people just playing around with these characters that they see Yeah. On their TV screens and on their phones constantly. Now the thing that gets tricky is when you confront celebrities and say, look at this thing somebody wrote about you. That is a big no no. And in fandom, one of the things that we really try to do is make sure that it's like because when you're confronting people with that kind of thing, it it puts the celebrity on the spot and also kind of denigrates, like, the fan and just Yes.

这对我来说是一条明确的底线。但我认为人们只是经常看到名人，对他们着迷，想要稍微玩闹一下，看看如果他们去咖啡店遇到一个可爱的男孩会发生什么，你知道吗？是的。

That's something that I think is clear for me anyway of, like, the kind of a hard line. But I think people just are seeing celebrities all the time, and they're fascinated by them, and they wanna, like, kinda play around and see what would happen if they went to the coffee shop and met a cute boy, you know? Yeah.

所以那个可爱的男孩是哈里·斯泰尔斯。是的。没错。

So and the cute boy was Harry Styles. Yes. Yeah.

不。最后一点关于道德的问题，基本上，你知道，我在媒体见面会上见过这种情况，他们就像，让我读一段这个火热的

No. That last point about the the ethics essentially of, like, you know, I've seen it happen in, like, junkets where they're like, let me read this segment of this steamy

嗯。

Mhmm.

同人小说给你听。这很居高临下。我认为这既是在剥削名人，试图获取他们的反应，也是在剥削作者。我认为这是人们在做之前没有深思的事情之一。是的。

Fic to you. And it's it is it's condescending. I think it's exploitative of both the celebrity and trying to get their reaction and of the writer. And I think that it's one of those things that people just don't think that much about Yeah. Before they do it.

如果你思考超过五分钟，那么你可能会有不同的反应。是的。我对这个超级兴奋，因为我知道你们已经做过关于这个的具体剧集。所以这是关于来自Scout的一个特定角落的同人小说。

And if you did think about it for longer than five minutes, then you you might have a different reaction to it. Yeah. I'm super excited for this one because I know you guys have done specific episodes on this. So this is about a specific corner fan fiction that comes from Scout.

我对深入探讨AU（平行宇宙）同人小说这一类型非常感兴趣。我认为AU更适合某些系列作品而非其他。比如，我读了很多《夜访吸血鬼》的同人小说，但我会特意避开那些与原设定偏离过远的AU同人，因为我认为他们作为吸血鬼的身份直接影响着他们在这个世界中的行为方式，塑造了角色的世界观等等。所以如果缺少这个关键元素，这些角色对我来说就没那么有趣了。我感觉不太像是在阅读关于这些我熟知并热爱的角色的故事。

I'm really interested in delving deeper into the genre of au alternate universe fanfic. I think that au lends itself better to some series than others. So for example, I read a lot of interview with the vampire fanfic, but I specifically avoid Au fanfics that are too far removed from the original setting for that series because I find the concept of them being vampires directly impacts how they move about the world and informs the character's worldview, etc. So I find without that key element that characters are just not as interesting to me. I don't feel as much like I'm reading a story about these characters I know and love.

然而，我却很喜欢阅读像《布里奇顿》这类系列的AU同人小说。能否请你们的嘉宾谈谈，为什么他们认为AU现象在同人小说中如此普遍，以及为什么它对某些作品有效，对另一些却不行？

Whereas, I love reading AU fic for a series like Bridgerton. Can your guests speak a little bit to why they think the AU phenomenon is so common in fan fiction, and why it works for some things, but not for others?

好的。那么你们谁能简单解释一下什么是AU同人小说？

Okay. So can one of you explain just briefly what AU fan fic is?

是的。AU代表平行宇宙（Alternate Universe）。举个简单的例子，我想大家都知道，如果你想读或写一些《哈利·波特》的同人小说，你决定在这个宇宙中他们不是巫师，没有魔法，这就是这些角色现在所处的平行宇宙。我们在我们的节目——顺便说一下，节目叫《注意标签》（Mind the Tags）——中做过一整期长达一小时的节目来讨论这个，那期节目叫《同人小说的多元宇宙》，但这确实是个很有趣的问题。我对《夜访吸血鬼》不太熟悉，我的意思是，我知道它的基本情况，但我能理解把他们从吸血鬼的设定中抽离出来，会从根本上极大地改变这些角色。

Yeah. AU stands for alternate universe. So, to take a very simple example I think everyone will know, you wanna read or write some Harry Potter fan fiction, and you decide in this universe they're not wizards, there's no magic, and so that is the alternate universe that these characters are now existing in. We did an entire hour long episode about this on our show, which by the way is called Mind the Tags, that episode is called the Multiverse of Fanfic, but that's a really fun question. I am not very familiar with Interview with the Vampire, I mean, know the basics of it, but I can see how taking them out of the vampire setting, would fundamentally very much alter those characters.

是的。然而，对于《哈利·波特》的同人小说，我认为对很多人来说，魔法对于他们感兴趣的那些角色特质来说是相当次要的。所以在我看来，部分原因在于，如果一个创作者明显对世界构建或他们赋予角色的设定所蕴含的意义感兴趣，或者如果这些角色在现代背景（或非现代背景，总之是另一个平行设定）中显得不合理，那么在这种情况下，AU可能就行不通。比如，据我理解，在《夜访吸血鬼》中，他们做了很多诸如互相残杀、维持非常toxic（有毒）关系的事情。所以这似乎更难转化为类似‘他们在咖啡店一起工作’这样的故事。

Yeah. Whereas, for Harry Potter fanfic, I think a lot of people the magic is pretty incidental to what they're interested in about those characters. And so part of it is, to me, I think if you have a creator who is clearly interested in, like, world building or in the implications of the setting that they've put these characters in, or if the characters don't really make sense in a modern setting or not modern, but in in an alternate setting, then in that case it might not work. Like, my understanding is that in an interview with the vampire, they do a lot of, like, killing each other and having really toxic relationships. So that seems like that would be tougher to translate into like they work at a coffee shop together kind of story.

我喜欢你指出的这一点，即有些人可能对像世界构建这样的事情更感兴趣或更能从中获得乐趣。所以这几乎像是一个实验，看看，好吧，如果我那样做会发生什么？

I like that you point out that like some people like they have more interest or pleasure in something like world building. So part of it is almost like it's an experiment to see, okay, what happens when I do that?

是的。比如《星球大战》，我认为这是一个很好的例子，《星球大战》的宇宙是如此广阔。那里有太多可以讲故事的地方，老实说，你完全可以写一个设定在《星球大战》宇宙里的故事，让他们在咖啡店工作，就卖卖蓝色牛奶拿铁之类的。但当你遇到《夜访吸血鬼》或类似的作品时，或者想想《权力的游戏》，很多角色的行为方式如果放在咖啡店工作是完全不可接受的，所以把他们从那个设定中抽离出来可能很难保持角色塑造的完整性。是的。

Yeah. Like Star Wars, I think is a good example of that, where the Star Wars universe is like so vast. There's so many places to tell stories there that honestly you could write a story set in the Star Wars universe where they work in a coffee shop and they just serve like blue milk lattes or whatever. But when you get to Interview with the Vampire or similar fix like that, Or thinking of Game of Thrones, a lot of those characters also act in ways that would not be acceptable if they worked in a coffee shop, so taking them out of that setting might be difficult to maintain the integrity of the characterization. Yeah.

艾米丽，你还有什么想补充的吗？

Do you have anything you wanna add to that, Emily?

是的。我认为是角色的可移植性。比如在《夜访吸血鬼》中，路易这个角色的核心之一就是他如何应对成为吸血鬼的问题？这可以说是他角色的核心驱动力和有趣之处。

Yeah. I think it's the translatability of the characters. Because in Interview with a Vampire, for example, one of the things about Louis is that how does he deal with being a vampire? Like, that's one of the central questions of his character and the interesting thing. So that, I think, is, like, one of the driving parts of the character.

所以我能理解如果有人会说，我对这个感兴趣，而不是可能在一个平行宇宙里他只是在闲逛，或者在电影院工作之类的。但我觉得对某些角色来说，更重要的是他们自我认知的过程、与他人建立关系、寻找身份认同。这些在任何宇宙都可以发生。你可以把他们放到任何地方。是的。

So I I would understand if someone's like, yeah, I'm interested in that versus maybe an alternate reality where he's, you know, hanging out and, I don't know, working in a movie theater. But I think for some characters, it's more about learning about themselves, building relationships with other people, their identity. And that that can be in any universe. You can plop them into truly anywhere. Yeah.

在我们粉丝圈里有个著名现象，我们的海盗角色无处不在。他们变成外星人，在太空船上，成为世界级音乐家，摇滚明星。

Famously, in our fandom, we have you know, our pirates are all over the place. They're aliens. They're on spaceships. They're doing you know, they're world class musicians. They're rock stars.

但讲述的都是同样的故事和同样的角色——关于自我发现和建立联系。只要你觉得角色在哪个宇宙中都能被认出来，这就是吸引人的关键。不过我完全同意，有些作品更适合这种改编，有些则更依赖于特定宇宙的背景设定。好的。

And it's all the same story and the same characters of, you know, discovering things about themselves and making connections. And as long as you feel like the character is recognizable in whatever universe they're in, that's kinda what what sort of builds it for people. But I I totally think that there are some media properties that lend themselves to that and some that are more very, very place based and based in that universe. Yeah. Okay.

那么最后一个问题是给所有正在收听的朋友们：如果你在想'我一定要入坑'，或者曾经入坑现在想回归的。这个问题来自凯西。

So our last question is for all of you who are listening who are like, I've got to get into this, or I used to be into this and I want to get back into it. This one comes from Casey.

我在十几岁时曾是哈利波特同人小说的狂热读者，那是在两千年代初互联网的黄金时代。后来我就慢慢不再主动寻找了。我的问题是：如果现在想重新入坑，该去哪里找好东西？我指的是文笔优质、情节疯狂但又合乎逻辑的作品。我觉得我想重新寻找同人小说资源的强烈情感，很大程度上源于我对当今网络环境普遍感到不安的困扰。

As a tween and young teen, I was a voracious consumer of Harry Potter fanfic during the heyday of the early two thousands Internet. And then I just sort of stopped seeking it out. My question is, if I want to get back into it, where are we going these days to find the good stuff? By which I mean quality writing and delightfully insane, but somehow plausible plot lines. I think a lot of my big feelings about seeking out sources of fanfic again are wrapped up in my general unease about the way that being online feels today.

还有一种怀旧/渴望的感觉，怀念社交媒体出现之前网上冲浪和阅读的体验。那时的互联网™是一个充满奇迹、等待探索的广阔奇妙世界。那么第二个问题，你认为重新阅读同人小说能否帮助我和其他曾经的AOL聊天室孩子们时光倒流，找回当年对上网的那种美好感觉？

And a nostalgia slash yearning for the way that surfing and reading online used to feel before social media. Like, the Internet TM was this big amazing world full of wonders to discover. And so second question, do you think that reading fanfic again can help me and other former AOL chat room kids time machine back to the better feelings that we had about being on the Internet?

太喜欢这个问题的结尾了。完美。十分满分。什么

Love the end of that question. Perfect. Ten ten. What

建议呢？

advice do you have?

作为一个三十多岁的人，你并没有超龄。你对同人小说来说并不算太老。这个游乐场非常广阔。实际上，比起过去，现在更加开放——以前非常封闭，就像之前说的，你只能在个别网站上找到关于特定内容的同人小说。

As a a person in their mid thirties, you're not aged out. You are not too old for fan fiction. It is, the the playground is vast. And actually, there are more back in the day, it was very siloed. Like, was saying, like, you were on an individual websites where you could find fic about this particular thing.

现在它是完全开放的，这在某种程度上似乎有点吓人。嗯。但“我们自己的档案库”（Archive of Our Own或AO3）可以说是最大的同人小说库，绝对是最著名的同人小说聚集地。你可以筛选你的阅读旅程，真正找到你想要的关于这些角色和这种题材的具体小说。

Now it's it's wide open, which kinda seems, like, scary in a way. Mhmm. But Archive of Our Own or AO three is like, I would say, the biggest repository and definitely the most notable place where fan fiction is. And you can filter your journey. You can really get any fic that you specifically want about these characters and this trope.

你真的可以把它筛选到完全符合你想要的内容。所以尽管它很大，但也有方法让它为你量身定制。

You can really filter it down to exactly what you want. And so even though it's really big, there's ways to make it so that it's, you know, catered to what you want as well.

我想补充一点，在“我们自己的档案库”上，如果你选择太多感到不知所措，你也可以按同人小说收到的点击量排序，看看它有多受欢迎，或者还有一种叫做“点赞”（kudos）的指标，表示有多少人表示喜欢这篇作品。你可以按这两种方式排序。所以如果你想开始阅读，比如你喜欢穆德和斯卡利，你可以搜索X档案同人圈中 specifically 有穆德和斯卡利配对的，然后我想看点赞最多的，也就是这个类型中最受欢迎的同人小说。

I want to throw in that on Archive of Your Own, if you are overwhelmed for choice, you can also sort by how many hits this fanfic has received to see how popular it is, or there's also something called kudos, which is how many people have said I liked this. And so you can sort by either of those. So if you're looking to start out, you're like, hey, I love Mulder and Scully, you can search for I wanna look at X Files fandom that specifically has the pairing Mulder and Scully, and I wanna see the top kudos. So the most liked fanfics in this genre.

是的。解析它的方法有很多种。而且，再次强调，这可能会让人有点不知所措，但大部分内容都集中在一个地方，这真的很棒。因为以前你得四处奔波寻找这些信息。我要说的是，AO3或Archive Everyone是变革性作品组织的一个项目。

Yeah. There's tons of ways to parse it. And, again, it's like it can be a little overwhelming, but but so much of it is in one place, which is really nice. Because before you'd have to go running around looking for it. I will say that a o three or Archive Everyone is a project of the organization for transformative works.

所以OTW是运营AO3的那种组织。他们还运营其他项目。此外还有其他网站。V提到了fanfiction.net，它仍然在运行。谢天谢地。

So OTW is what kind of runs a o three. They also run other things. And then there's other sites as well. So V mentioned fanfiction.net, which is still up and running. God bless.

还有Wattpad，我其实没怎么探索过，但现在很多人把同人小说放在Wattpad上。我得说Wattpad上也有原创小说，很多原创小说和其他内容，所以可能找起来有点挑战性。我不完全确定。然后在社交媒体和互联网方面，是的。

And then there's also Wattpad, which I don't really I've never really, like, explored, but a lot of people put fan fiction on Wattpad now. I would say there there's also original fiction, a lot of original fiction on Wattpad and other things, so it might be, like, a little bit more challenging to find. I'm not totally sure. And then in terms of, like, the social media Internet of it all. Yeah.

我觉得同人圈在Tumblr上活跃了很久，肯定是从LiveJournal逐渐没落之后开始的。有一阵子我以为Tumblr死了，但它还活着，各位。它在这里蓬勃发展。好吧？所以快去上Tumblr吧。

I feel like fandom has lived on Tumblr for a long time, certainly since, LiveJournal kind of went by the wayside. And for a while, I thought Tumblr was dead, but she is alive, y'all. She is out here thriving. Okay? So get get you to the Tumblr.

知道吗？它还在，而且仍然是一个非常同人圈友好的地方，我认为你可以在那里找到很多东西。是的。现在我们同人圈中的很多人都有自己的Discord服务器，我们在那里聚集，讨论同人小说和其他事情。所以你可以四处看看，看看你感兴趣的同人圈是否有Discord服务器可以加入。

You know? It's out here, and it's still very much a fandom, like, fandom friendly place where you can find a lot of things, I think. And Yeah. A lot of us in fandom now have our own Discord servers, and that's where we are convening and talking about fan fiction and talking about other things. And so you can kinda poke around and and find out if fandoms that you're interested in might have, like, a little Discord server to join.

是的。而且取决于你的同人圈，它可能在TikTok或Instagram上也有很大影响力。我们的同人圈现在在Blue Sky上影响力很大。所以这可能有点取决于你的同人圈是什么，但我认为Tumblr和AO3是很好的起点。AO3，你知道，每当我听到，比如，用一个不太准确的词来说，聚合。

Yeah. And and depending on your fandom, it might also have a big presence on TikTok or Instagram. Our fandom has a really big presence on Blue Sky now. So it it might be a little dependent on what your fandom is, but I think that Tumblr and AO three are great places to start. Does AO three you know, anytime I hear about, like, the conglomeration for lack of a better word Mhmm.

很多个人贡献者汇聚到一个空间，这总是让我非常警惕。对吧？就像，一个人或一个组织拥有所有控制权。你认为AO3是如何尝试避免这种感觉的？

Of a lot of individual contributors into one space, like, it always just makes me very wary. Right? Like, in terms of, like, one person just having all the control, like or not one person, but one organization. And how do you think AO3 attempts to try to avoid that feeling?

哦，这确实很棘手。是的。所以，是的。OTW是非营利组织，但基本上全靠志愿者运作。没错。

Oh, this is so tough. Yeah. So Yeah. OTW is the nonprofit, but it's pretty much all volunteers. Yeah.

而且有很多人参与，规模庞大。所以这立刻就能排除那种‘只是某个人在运作’的感觉。当然，虽然确实有人领导和负责。但AO3我认为面临的一个难题是，他们真的尽力避免审查内容。

And a lot of them, there's a ton of people involved. So that kind of immediately takes away like, oh, it's just this one person kind of thing. Right. Although, of course, there's like people leading it and stuff. But one of the things that AO3 I think struggles with is that they really try not to censor.

他们不会进来就说，这篇同人文合适，那篇不合适，这篇不行。这一点一直很有挑战性，因为有人说，嘿，这里有些问题内容，有些有害的东西。我认为AFTW（注：应为OTW）始终持这样的立场：我们不会监管上面的内容，某种程度上是用户在自我管理。

They don't come in here and say, well, this FIC is appropriate and this isn't and this is not. And and that has been challenging because there have been folks who say, hey, there's some problematic stuff up here. There's some stuff that's harmful. AFTW, I think, always has had the position, like, we're not going to police what's going on up here. The users in a way are kind of doing that.

嗯。比如，你可以举报内容，当然可以。所以我认为他们试图采取一种保持距离的方式，不去指挥人们该做什么，但这确实引发了一些担忧。我知道2020年就有很多担忧，关于AO3对种族主义材料和内容缺乏过滤，有些内容可能确实很有问题且有害。OTW一直故意行动缓慢，因为他们不想给人‘我们现在要管制同人小说’的印象，你知道，它本应是一个开放的同人小说存档库，主要目的是存档，而不是一个策展空间。

Mhmm. Like, you can report things and and certainly so I think I think they've tried to have a, like, distanced approach to trying to tell people what to do and things like that, but it's it's that's definitely led to some concerns. I know in 2020, for example, there was a lot of concerns raised about how, AO three doesn't have a lot of filters for racist material and content, and that there's some things out there that maybe could be really problematic and harmful. And I think OTW has always been very slow moving purposefully because they don't want to come across as we're going to gatekeep fan fiction now, you know, it's supposed to be a very open archive of fan fiction. And its main purpose is as an archive, not as like a curated space.

这样说得通吧？

Does that make Right.

所以它是一个存档库，而不是平台，这就导致了一些困难。完全说得通。

So it's an archive, not a platform, which leads to some of the difficulties. It totally makes sense.

是的，我正想说，我觉得他们面临着和每个社交媒体网络、每个有多贡献者的地方一样的审查问题，并且持续在挣扎。对了，我们应该提一下2023年到2024年发生的抗议活动，就是‘终结OTW中的种族主义’运动。

Yeah, I was gonna say I feel like they face a lot of the same censorship questions that every social media network, every place that has multiple contributors are facing and continue to struggle with. And yeah, we should mention the protest that happened in 2023, 2024. That was, end racism in the OTW.

在OTW中终结种族主义。Vans整合了这些内容，并讨论了一些非常合理的担忧，即如何在确保AO3对用户安全的同时，又不进行内容审查，这需要把握好分寸。

End racism in the OTW. Vans put it together and and just talking about some of the really valid concerns that, were brought up about how to make a o three safe for folks, but also not censor folks, and so to have to thread that line.

是的。因为它是自标记的。人们可能会写一些非常糟糕的内容却不加标签，你知道，这是个问题。所以

Yeah. Because it's self tagging. People could write really horrible things and not tag them, and, you know, that's a problem. So

但我想最后问一个问题，对你来说，它是否仍然感觉是互联网上一个好地方，尤其是在你选择常驻的同人圈子里？

But I think one of my ending questions I wanna say is, like, does it feel like it's still a good place on the Internet for you, especially within the fandoms where you choose to hang out?

哦，是的。

Oh, yeah.

AO3一直在我电脑上开着。是的。我看到那个小标志，就觉得我到家了。那个小标志就像在呼唤我，像是我的小伙伴。

A o three is open constantly on my computer. Yeah. I see that little I see that little logo, and I'm like, I'm home. It's like that little logo, it's just like calling to me, like, she's my little friend.