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欢迎收听《文化研究播客》，我是安·海伦·彼得森。
This is the Culture Study Podcast, and I'm Anne Helen Petersen.
嗨。
Hi.
我是索菲·毕晓普。
I'm Sophie Bishop.
我是《影响者入侵》的作者，同时也是英国利兹大学媒体与传播系的副教授。
I am the author of Influencer Creep, and I'm an associate professor in media and communication at the University of Leeds in The UK.
索菲，我们先从最直接的问题开始，好吗。
Sophie, we're gonna start super straightforward Okay.
因为你的书里有一句话，你说：‘于是，我做了任何一个拥有性别研究硕士学位并有一点行业经验的人会做的事。’
Because there's a line in your book where you're like, so I did what anyone with an MA in gender studies and a little bit of industry experience did.
我读了博士。
I got a PhD.
是的。
Yeah.
所以我的问题是，你是怎么对网红产生兴趣，并觉得它们值得研究的？
And so this is like my question is, how did you become interested in influencers as like something worth studying?
好的。
Okay.
所以是这样的。
So yeah.
所以我可以讲讲我的情况。
So I can give my yeah.
稍微讲讲我的人生经历。
My life story a bit.
所以当时我在做。
So I was doing yeah.
我当时在萨塞克斯大学攻读性别与媒体研究的硕士学位，那是一个很棒的项目。
So I was doing my master's degree in gender media studies at the University of Sussex, which was a great program.
作为一个英国的硕士班，它规模非常小。
It was very small for a UK master's class.
当时班上只有我们五个人，是的。
There was only five of us in it and, yeah.
哇。
Wow.
是的。
Yeah.
我们大家都互相约会之类的。
It was like, you know, we all dated each other and so on.
那真是段美好的时光。
It was like, it was a good time.
那就是那种时刻。
It was a very it was that kind of moment.
但与此同时，我正在从事数字营销工作。
So But at the same time, I was working in digital marketing.
我那时有个实习，很棒的是，它组织得非常松散。
So I had an internship, and the great thing about it was it was very kind of loosely organized.
在这段实习期间，我做了很多不同的工作。
I got So to do a lot of stuff as part of this internship.
我的职责是与我们的一些时尚和美妆客户合作。
So my role, was work to work with some of the fashion and beauty clients that we had.
我的任务是寻找合适的博主进行合作。
And my role was to find bloggers to work with.
那时候大概是2010年到2011年。
So it was this was like 2010, 2011.
当时博客圈已经逐渐专业化，品牌们也开始意识到可以与博主合作。
So the blogosphere was kind of professionalized, and there was this awareness from brands that they could work with bloggers.
他们可以寄送产品给博主，让博主帮忙推广，这样就能触达数以万计的受众——这在社交媒体平台之外是相当巨大的影响力，而且几乎不需要支付太多费用，甚至可能免费。
They could get the they could send them products and get them to talk about those products, and you'd have a reach of potentially tens of thousands, which was huge, you know, outside of the context of social media platforms, and you wouldn't have to pay very much for it, if anything.
我的工作就是，是的。
My job was yeah.
我的工作就是找到这些博主。
That that was my job, was to find the blogger.
所以与此同时，我正在学习性别与媒体研究，而整个领域都如此性别化，这让我感到惊讶；现在听起来可能有点过时，但我觉得在那个年代，人们对互联网确实有一种真正的热情或乐观，认为我们能够超越像康泰纳仕这样的高度性别化的媒体，创造出一些不同的东西，任何人都可以通过分享自己热爱的内容获得受众。
So I but obviously, at the same time, I was studying gender media studies, and this whole space was so gendered, and that was something that I found surprising and it sounds quaint now, but I think, you know, that time there was this real, like euphoria or there was a real optimism maybe about the internet, like the potential that we could supersede the highly gendered media that we have, you know, you know, the Conde Nast or whatever, and we can make something different, and that anyone could actually get an audience just making what they were passionate about.
但实际上，当时最显眼的博主们所做的，正是这些杂志早已做过的事情，比如穿搭点评。
But actually, what was happening was that, you know, the most visible, people who were, like, writing blogs at the time were doing exactly the same thing that had been done in these magazines, like outfit reviews Yep.
男性建议，美妆建议。
Boy advice, makeup advice.
所以我对这一点非常感兴趣，那时我就觉得，还有更多可说的。
So I was really interested in that, and that's when I was like, there's more to say.
于是我申请了博士项目，最初被拒了，因为他们说，关于内容创作者根本写不出一篇完整的博士论文。
And, I applied for a PhD, and initially was rejected because they were like, there's not a whole PhD D.
去写内容创作者。
To write about content creators.
也就是说，这根本不是一个足够重要的主题。
Like, there's not, you know, it's not a kind of significant enough topic.
让我们说清楚一点。
Situate us.
这是哪一年？
What what year was this?
哪一年？
What year
那大概是2012或2013年。
was this was so this was probably 02/1213.
是的。
Yes.
这真是典型的2012年博士生回答。
That is such a 2012 PhD response.
就像说，不会吧。
It's like, no.
当然不是。
Of course not.
这根本不是博士论文。
This isn't a PhD.
所以我的博士研究是关于名人八卦博客的，是的。
So my PhD work was in, like, celebrity gossip blog Yes.
名人的历史。
The history of celebrity.
是的。
Yes.
而且情况也差不多。
And same sort of situation.
他们就像，看，我正盯着帕丽斯·希尔顿呢。
They were like like, here I am, like, looking at Paris Hilton.
他们会觉得，你到底在干什么？
They're like, what the fuck are you doing?
天哪。
Oh my god.
对吧？
Right?
这个人需要被研究。
That man needs to be studied.
他简直迫切需要被进行细致入微的研究。
Like, that he's begging to be studied in granular detail.
那时，在那个时刻，这仍然属于学术圈内的事情。
That back then in that moment, it was still, like, within the academic sphere.
对我们这些深度关注互联网、了解互联网动态的人来说，这非常有趣，而我当时正值二十多岁。
It was, like, really interesting for us who were very plugged into the Internet and what was going on in the Internet and very much like I was in my twenties.
你当时二十多岁吗？
Were you in your twenties?
我猜是的。
I'm guessing.
是的。
Yes.
对。
Yeah.
我们当时就是觉得，不行。
Like, we're like, no.
这很有趣。
This is interesting.
这是互联网的未来，但要向那些从事经典好莱坞研究的人解释这一点，有时真的很难。
This is the future of the Internet and trying to explain that to people who had been doing like classic Hollywood scholarship was was difficult sometimes.
但没错，现在回头看，我们当时思考的这些事情显得非常有远见。
But yes, now it seems very prescient that we were thinking about all of those things back then.
没错。
Exactly.
不，而且我觉得，回顾这个时刻，真的让我意识到当时充满了可能性和希望，那时的互联网、内容创作，或者写博客，似乎可以成为一种不那么剥削性、不那么不平等和不公正的东西，你知道的，就是我们现在所熟知的那些问题。
No, and it's and I think also, like, thinking about this moment has really reminded me how seemed a lot of possibility and hope, and it really seems like maybe the Internet or, like, content creation or like writing blogs that could be something that wasn't as exploitative, that wasn't as uneven and unequal, you know, all the things that we know it to be now.
那是一个不同的时代，字面意义上是这样，但事实上也是。
It was, you know, it was a different time, quite literally, but also Yeah.
你明白的，从象征意义上来说。
You know, figuratively.
而且，正如你在书中所追溯的，早期博客圈中存在着各种动态，比如那些更职业化、偏向时尚、OOTD风格的博客，当这些内容被引入社交媒体，特别是Instagram和现在的TikTok时，它们被进一步放大和强化。
Well, and as you trace in the book, like, there are all these dynamics that are happening in this early blogosphere, both like the more professionalized beauty type fashion OOTD oriented blogs that then translates and intensifies when it's fed into social media, specifically into Instagram and now TikTok.
对吧？
Right?
是的。
Like Yeah.
你可以看到，网红这一概念逐渐成形。
You see, like, the influencer idea crystallize more.
你能谈谈你是如何看到这一过程发生的吗？尤其是在疫情期间？
Can you talk a little bit about how you saw that happening, especially during COVID?
当然可以。
Absolutely.
我认为我们谈到了平台化的过程，即一切变得极度依赖少数几个垄断性的社交媒体平台。
I think so we talk about this process of platformization where everything becomes really dependent on a small number of monopoly social media platforms.
所以，当我与博主们合作时，整个生态是非常分散的。
So, you when I was working with the bloggers, was very distributed.
当时找他们并不容易，所以在疫情期间，我研究了一些艺术家。
It wasn't always easy to find So during COVID, I was studying artists.
我原本已经不再专注于研究专业网红了，但疫情期间，那些在Instagram上发布艺术作品的人经历了一个非常有趣的时刻，因为很多人被困在家里。
I'd kind of moved on from studying professional influencers, but COVID was this really interesting moment for people who were posting their art on Instagram because there were lots of people that were stuck in their homes.
所以他们拥有了越来越大的受众群体。
So they had, you know, this growing audience.
我们所有人都在更多地浏览社交媒体。
We were like all looking at our more.
但同时，他们也有可支配收入，人们希望把家布置得更漂亮，因为他们被困在家里。
But also they had disposable income and people wanted to make their houses nice because they were stuck in their homes.
因此，当时我访谈的许多艺术家，都经历了巨大的算法推荐增长。
So a lot of the artists that I spoke to at this time, like, for this research, they had a big algorithmic bump.
他们在Instagram上迅速获得了大量粉丝。
Like, they got lots of followers very quickly on Instagram.
所以Instagram变得极其重要，成为他们工作的核心方式，很多人辞去了工作，或者在被裁员后，把领到的补偿金投入到了通过Instagram销售艺术作品的事业中。
So Instagram became, like, really, really central to how they were working, like and, you know, a lot of people quit their jobs, or if they got laid off, they invested their their that like, their payments into creating a business, selling art on Instagram.
但你会变得非常、非常依赖它。
But you become really, really dependent on it.
所以，这也是影响者们的情况。
So and, you know, that's the same that's the case for influencers.
你通过这个平台建立起了一群观众。
Like, you build up this audience through the platform.
但即使人们已经主动选择关注你，也不意味着Instagram一定会向他们展示你的内容。
But even if people have chosen to follow you on Instagram, then that doesn't necessarily mean that Instagram is gonna show you the content.
对吧？
Right?
这仍然取决于平台的决定。
Like, that's still up to them.
即使你已经建立了一群明确选择关注你的观众，你仍然可能无法触达他们。
Like, even if you've built an audience that has expressly chosen to follow you, you still might not be able to reach that audience.
所以，是的，我们在这里清楚地看到，平台扮演着创作者与观众之间中介、仲裁者和通道的角色。
So, yeah, this is where we really see the, like, role of the platform as being the conduit, the arbiter, the kind of middle man between, like creators and their audience.
而且，你知道，这一切都变得更加依赖平台了。
And, you know, it's all becomes like a lot more platform dependent.
对。
Right.
而且这会带来巨大的焦虑，对吧？
And be and creates this incredible anxiety, right?
因为平台的规则非常不透明，根本不像你在主街上开一家店，然后按照商学院教的五条规则就能经营好一家成功的企业。
Because like the rules are very opaque of how to actually like like, it's not like, oh, you open up a business on Main Street, and then you follow these five rules that you learn in business school about how to run a successful business.
这要复杂得多。
Like, it's so much more dynamic.
那些曾经有效的方法，可能过不了三个月就不管用了。
Things that work or things that did work no longer work after, like, I don't know, three months.
任何做过社交媒体营销的人都知道这一点。
Anyone who's done any sort of, like, social media marketing knows this.
我想聊聊这种焦虑。
And I wonder to talk about that anxiety.
也许我们可以谈谈你书中开头提到的例子，就是有位《大西洋》杂志的记者联系你，想聊聊一位领养狗狗的社交网红——她收养狗狗，并通过社交媒体帮助这些狗狗找到新家，而她因此感到极大的焦虑。
Maybe we could talk about the example that you used to begin the book, which is you were approached by an Atlantic writer to to talk about a dog foster influencer, like, with someone who fosters dogs who is trying to get her dogs adopted via social media, the dogs that she was fostering, and how much anxiety she felt around this.
是的。
Yeah.
实际上，那位《大西洋》的记者本人就是收养狗狗的人，哦，对，就是这样。
So it's actually the Atlantic journalist herself who fosters dogs and she Oh, it is.
所以，这根本就不是她的本职工作。
And so, you know, this really is not her job at all.
对吧？
Right?
她只是在收养狗狗。
So she fosters dogs.
她只是想帮它们找到领养家庭。
She wants to get them adopted.
而我们如今做任何事情的方式，越来越依赖社交媒体，尤其是Instagram。
The way that we do that, you know, the like, the way that we do anything more and more is through social media, through Instagram.
所以她发现自己做了所有这些工作，比如拍下狗狗的精彩照片，充分展现它们的个性，写很多内容，这真的需要很多精力，对吧？
So she found herself doing all of this labor, like, you know, taking amazing pictures of the dogs, really showcasing their personality and writing a lot and it takes a lot right?
这简直太费劲了。
That's like a lot of work.
而且你还要让它们看起来真实可信，确保忠实地呈现它们——这位记者的名字叫卡罗琳·米姆斯。
And also you know making them kind of seem authentic and you know making sure that she's represented that faithfully but Caroline's Mims Nice is the name of the journalist.
但她却因此遭受了大量谩骂，不管她做什么都一样。
But but she just got so much abuse, like, whatever she did.
比如，这并不好笑，但在那篇文章中，她谈到了这种曝光带来的风险，以及由此产生的焦虑。
Like, and that was I mean, it's not funny, but it's just like the, in the, in the piece she talks about the risks of the, of the visibility, like the anxiety around it.
比如，如果她分享了狗狗，人们就会问：‘你为什么不领养它呢？’或者评论她照顾得是否妥当，总之，人们对这件事有非常多强烈的情绪。
Like the anxiety, if she did share the dogs, then people would just be like, why aren't you adopting the dog or commenting on how she was looking after it or, you know, like just making like, people had like a lot of really intense feelings about it.
但如果不发帖，她又觉得没有公正地对待这些狗狗，因为没有触达更广泛的受众，可能就无法帮它们找到真正该有的家。
But then if she didn't post it, she didn't feel like there's she was doing the dogs justice because she wasn't potentially getting them like the home that they deserved because you're not reaching this wide audience.
所以这真是一个关于这种焦虑的绝佳例子，因为她觉得，无论发帖还是不发帖，都是错的。
So she really that is like a really nice example of that anxiety because she just felt like if she did post, it was wrong.
如果她不发布，那就是错的。
If she didn't post, it was wrong.
而且，是的，这非常有压力。
And, yeah, it was very stressful.
是的。
Yes.
不。
No.
我也曾有过这种感受。
And I I have felt this.
我认为，从我的角度来看，作为一个学者，然后作为一名记者，我从一开始就几乎在社交媒体上公开露面。
And I think, like, an interesting thing from my perspective is, like, as first an academic and then as a journalist, I was always almost from the beginning visible on social media.
是的。
Yeah.
很早就用了Twitter。
Like, got Twitter very early on.
然后我开始运营一个WordPress博客，那是一个学术博客。
And then I started, a WordPress blog that was an academic blog.
它叫‘名人八卦学术风’。
It was called celebrity gossip academic style.
我早期在上面写的一些文章范围更广，引起了当时被称为‘Twihards’的人的不满，那些人极度痴迷于克里斯汀·斯图尔特和罗伯特·帕丁森在一起。
And, like I love had, like, some early posts that I had written there go broader and attracted the ire of the what were then called the Twihards, like people who were very obsessed with Kristen Stewart and Robert Pattinson being together.
我的天。
My god.
因此我收到了大量的谩骂。
And and so I got a ton of abuse from it.
但我就这样内化了这种观念：作为一名学者和记者，必须公开自己的工作，而对那些在行业里待了很久的人来说，这简直是不可理喻。
But it like, so it kind of I just internalized this logic of, like, part of being an academic and a journalist was being very public about my work, which for people who had been in the industry for a long time, like, this was anathema.
为什么你要去应对关于这些事的喷子？
Like, why would you have to deal with trolls about this stuff?
你居然觉得有必要谈论自己的私人生活和工作，这太荒谬了。
Like, this is this is fucked up that you would, like, feel like you need to talk about your personal life and your work.
你明白我的意思吗？
Do you know what I mean?
就像，你是否在某种程度上试图塑造这种人设。
Like, that you are in any way trying to create this persona.
比如，在2010年代初我找工作时，曾有过一场激烈的讨论，关于个人品牌、建立个人网站，以及这是否显得不够专业，因为太过于光鲜亮丽。
Like, there was even a huge discussion when I was going on the job market in, like, the early two thousand tens about, like, branding and having a personal website and whether that was, like, anti professional because it was too glossy.
就像太像广告了，你知道的，太像网红了。
Like it was too almost like advertising, you know, like it was too much like an influencer.
那时候我们还没有这个词。
We didn't have the words for that then.
但我确实认为，正是‘网红渗透’这个概念如此有用，因为它发生得如此缓慢，以至于我们有时忘了，过去并非如此——你并不需要在社交媒体上表演你狗狗的个性才能让它被领养。
But I do think, and this is like where the idea of influencer creep is so useful, is that it has happened so gradually that sometimes we forget that it wasn't always this way, that you didn't have to perform your dog's personality on social media to get it fostered.
对吧？
Right?
没错。
Right.
没有。
No.
关键就在这里，我的意思是，这听起来可能很天真，但我真的没料到，在这个第二个项目中与我交谈的艺术家们会这样。
And that's the thing because, I mean, it sounds very naive, but really, I didn't expect the artists that I spoke to as part of this second project.
于是，我把对艺术世界的民族志研究和我之前已经进行了八年的关于影响者的民族志研究结合在了一起。
So, you know, I united this ethnography of art worlds with my ethnography of influences, which had been going for, I don't know, eight years at that point.
而且是的，我真以为会不一样。
And yeah, I really thought it was gonna be different.
我真的很震惊。
I was really shocked.
我的意思是，这些对话不断冒出来。
I mean, these conversations just kept coming up.
比如我去纹身的时候，和纹身师聊起了我的博士论文。
Like when I went and got a tattoo I was speaking to the tattoo artist about my PhD.
而纹身这种东西，你知道，人们在Instagram上必须非常显眼。
And tattoos like you know that's a huge space where people have to be super visible on Instagram.
她告诉我，因为我当时研究的是算法专家，也就是那些创作关于算法如何运作内容的人，他们的内容就是以此吸引受众的。他们就像是在为算法做天气预报，尽管他们其实并不能真正知道算法是如何运作的，但他们还是会做实验和测试等等。
And she was telling me because that she I was studying at the time, like algorithmic experts, so the people who create content about how algorithms work and that's their content, that's how they get their audiences, They're sort of, you know, giving kind of like a weather forecast for the algorithm, even though they can't really actually know how it works, but they do experiments and tests and so on.
但我的纹身师却说，是的，我听过这个人，那个人。
But my tattoo artist was like, yeah, like, I listened to this person, this person.
我就问，你为什么要去听这些网红算法专家的言论？
And I was like, why are you listening to these influencer algorithmic experts?
这是因为，你知道，Instagram 在这个圈子里至关重要，但这类例子却越来越多地出现。
And it's because, you know, Instagram is so central to that world, but then, you know, these examples come up more and more.
所以我还和一些朋友聊过，比如厨师，如果你想以厨师的身份崭露头角，你就必须创作菜品并把它们发到网上，同时可能还要展示你自己。
So I've talked to friends that are chefs, for example, and, if you want to create, if you want to put yourself out there as a chef, then you have to be creating dishes and putting them online, but then also potentially yourself.
我的意思是，这种情况越来越普遍，真的让人觉得像是一张薄饼，因为这一切竟然如此核心。
I mean, it's just like more and more, it really does feel like a crepe because it's wild that it's so central.
这些社交媒体平台如今已经完全渗透到我们所做的一切之中。
Like these social media platforms are so now central to everything that we're doing.
是啊，我们到底是怎么走到这一步的？
And yeah, is kind of like, how did we get here?
本期节目由Lola毛毯赞助。
Today's episode is sponsored by Lola Blankets.
除了我们现在晚上睡觉时一定会盖上毯子，再加一条Lola毛毯之外，Melody，你有一个特别棒的推荐。
In addition to the fact that right now, we are definitely a, like, comforter and then the Lola Blanket over it to sleep at night household, Melody, you have a really wonderful endorsement.
所以让我来听听你的推荐。
So I'm gonna let you share yours.
是的。
Yes.
我有一个朋友目前正在接受化疗。
So I have a friend who is going through chemotherapy right now.
其中一个副作用是对寒冷敏感。
And one of the side effects is sensitivity to the cold.
所以你必须时刻裹得严严实实的，尤其是在冬天接受治疗时。
So you just kind of have to always be bundled up, especially when you're getting it in winter.
我知道她了解我的Lola毛毯，就问她要不要一条。
And I asked her if she wanted a Lola blanket because she knew about mine.
她说：‘嗯，如果是免费的，那当然好。’
And she's like, I mean, yeah, if it's free.
所以我用自己的钱买了一个寄给了她。
So I bought one with my money and sent it to her.
她跟我说：‘天哪，你问我想要一条毯子的时候，我还想，一条毯子能有多好？’
And she was like, oh my gosh, when you asked me if I wanted a blanket, I was like, how nice could a blanket be?
她说：‘我现在简直爱死了。’
And she's like, I am obsessed.
我整天都裹在它下面。
I am under it all the time.
我终于能给你做个尺寸对比了。
I also have a size comparison I can give you, finally.
XL码的毯子可以垂到女王床的边缘。
The XL drapes over a queen.
所以如果你不确定该选哪个尺寸，我就用这个，我超爱它。
So if you aren't sure what size to get, that's the one I have and I love it.
但确实。
But Yeah.
它就是这么大。
That's how big it is.
我知道。
I know.
我肯定想要更大的那个。
I want the bigger one for sure.
我只有普通尺寸的，和狗抢来抢去的。
I only have the normal sized one, and it's just like I fight over it with the dogs.
他们还有加重毯子，我也想试试，因为这种毯子本身就已经有点加重的效果了。
They also have weighted blankets, which I also want to try because they kind of function as a little bit of a weighted blanket as is.
不是那种很强的加重，但我觉得稍微加重一点会更让人平静。
Not, like, not intensely, but, like, I could see just a little bit have to be an even more calming.
我超喜欢用它。
I love having it.
在有限时间内，我们的听众可以使用代码 culture 在结账时享受 Lola Blankets 部分产品 40% 的折扣。
And for a limited time, our listeners can get 40% off select Lola Blankets products with code culture at checkout.
请前往 lolablankets.com 并使用代码 culture。
Just head to lolablankets.com and use code culture.
购买后，他们会问你是在哪里了解到他们的。
After you purchase, they'll ask you where you heard about them.
请支持我们的节目，并告诉他们是我们推荐你的。
Please support our show and let them know that we sent you.
用 Lola Blankets 体验真正的奢华。
Wrap yourself in true luxury with Lola Blankets.
《文化研究》播客由 Remy 赞助。
The Culture Study Podcast is sponsored by Remy.
过去一周，我做了牙冠。
So this past week, I had a crown.
任何听过一段时间这个播客的人都知道，我的牙齿状况不好。
Anyone who's listened to the podcast for any amount of time knows that I have bad teeth.
我只是牙釉质不好，这困扰了我一辈子。
I just I have poor enamel, something I've dealt with my entire life.
牙痛可不是小事，它真的会影响你一整天的状态。
And tooth pain, like, it's no joke, and it really influences your entire day.
那种感觉就像是在你脑海深处隐隐作痛。
Like, it's just it's kind of this subtle throbbing in the back of your mind.
我提起这个是因为，它和你白天或夜间无意识地咬紧或磨牙时所感受到的疼痛非常相似。
And I bring this up because it's very similar to the sort of pain that you get when you involuntarily clench or grind your teeth during the day or at night.
很多人只是默默忍受，认为这是生活的一部分。
And a lot of people just deal with this and come to think of it as like part of what their life is.
但事情不必如此。
But it doesn't have to be this way.
你不必忍受这种疼痛。
You don't have to deal with that sort of pain.
如果你是那30%有磨牙习惯的美国人，这就是为你提供的解决方案。
And if you're part of the thirty percent of Americans who grind your teeth, this is a solution for you.
Remy的定制夜用牙套经过临床测试并获得FDA认证，可有效防止磨牙、减轻下颌紧张和面部肌肉压力，并改善睡眠质量。
Remy's custom night guards are clinically tested and FDA cleared to prevent teeth grinding, reduce jaw tension, and facial muscle strain, and improve sleep quality.
您将获得与牙医处定制夜用牙套相同的专业品质和舒适度，但Remy的价格低80%，且无需亲自前往牙科诊所，更加便捷。
You'll get the same professional quality and comfort as a nightguard from the dentist, but Remy costs you 80% less and is more convenient than having to go to the dentist's office.
以下是它的运作方式。
Here's how it works.
您会直接收到取模套件，然后按照Remy的分步说明完成精准取模。
You receive your impression kit straight to your door, and then you follow Remy's step by step instructions to get your perfect impression.
Remy随后为您定制并寄送专属夜用牙套。
Remy then crafts and ships your custom fit night guard.
您收到后，即可开始保护牙齿。
You get it back, and you start protecting your teeth.
并缓解您的疼痛。
And addressing your pain.
因此，您可以从新年伊始就正确行动，使用代码culture享受新牙套50%的折扣。
So you can start the new year right and use code culture to get 50% off your purchase of a new night guard.
在 shop.remi.com/culture 使用代码 culture 可享受五折优惠。
That's 50% off at shop,remi,.com/culture with code culture.
感谢 Remi 赞助本期节目。
Thank you, Remi, for sponsoring this episode.
好的。
Okay.
为了探讨一些关于影响如何渗透到商业各个方面的疑问，比如这类现象，我们将逐一回答读者的问题，本周的问题非常精彩。
So to explore some of these questions about like how influencing has crept into so much of business, all this sort of thing, we're gonna go through our reader questions, which are really excellent this week.
第一个问题来自 Alexa，本质上是你书中所解答的问题。
So first question comes from Alexa, and it's basically the question that your book answers.
影响者不仅塑造了我们的购物方式，也改变了我们的销售方式。
Influencers have shaped not just what we buy, but how we sell.
我曾在广告行业工作，每次看到我的品牌与那些并非真正影响者、却懂得制作看似影响者内容的人合作时，我都觉得很好笑。
I worked in advertising and it always makes me laugh how my brands partner with creators who aren't real influencers, but they know how to make content that feels like influencer content.
而如今，这已被视为有效的广告方式。
And that's just now considered effective advertising.
真正让我感兴趣的是，这种风格如何完全脱离了营销领域。
What really interests me is how this style has escaped the marketing world altogether.
我时不时会看到高中时 vaguely 认识的人发布视频，完全以网红的语调分享日常作息、人生感悟或一段 POV 时刻，尽管他们没有任何粉丝，也无物可售。
Every so often, I'll see someone I vaguely knew from high school post a video in full influencer cadence, sharing a daily routine, a life lesson, or a little POV moment, despite having no following and nothing to sell.
那么，这里究竟发生了什么？
So what is happening here?
网红风格的内容是否已演变为一种新的自我表达方式，就像我们现在自然地叙述自己的生活一样？
Has influencer style content become a new mode of self expression, just the way we now naturally narrate our lives?
创作者广告的美学是否已深深渗透进文化，以至于即使我们根本不是在影响他人时，也无意识地采用了它？
Has the aesthetic of creator advertising seeped so deeply into culture that we've subconsciously adopted it even when we're not influencing at all?
或者，当年坐在数学课我后面的那个女生，只是单纯想换个工作？
Or is the girl who sat behind me in math senior year simply just looking for a career change?
这个问题太棒了。
Love that question.
我知道。
I know.
太棒了。
It's so good.
我觉得我们可以先弄清楚什么才让人成为真正的网红。
I think we could start by figuring out what makes someone a real influencer.
所以，你写书时的研究部分涉及了专业化的问题。
So, like, part of your research for the book was about the professionalization.
我特别喜欢你提到的这一点：与网红的互动，尤其是在初期，很多时候并不是金钱交易。
And, like, I really love the point where you're like, so much of the exchange with influencers is actually, especially in the beginning, nonmonetary.
对吧？
Right?
不是发工资。
Like, it's not paychecks.
只是送东西。
It's just goods.
当一个人看起来总在免费拿东西时，观众就会觉得他变得专业了，这又让他能进一步专业化，等等等等。
And when someone seems to be getting free stuff, that professionalizes them in the eyes of the viewer, which then allows them to professionalize further blah blah blah.
那么，是什么让人成为真正的影响力人物呢？
So what makes someone a real influencer?
你该怎么去界定呢？
How do you say how do you ascertain?
天啊。
Oh god.
所以，是的，这是一个非常具有挑战性的问题。我当时担任英国议会关于网红文化调查的特别顾问，我们试图为‘影响力人物’下个定义，或者至少形成一个可行的概念。
So, yeah, so this is, you know, it's it's a very challenging question and I did this like I was a specialist advisor to the UK parliamentary inquiry into influencer culture and we were trying to come up with a definition or some kind of like working concept of what an influencer was.
这真的很难，因为你会想，是看粉丝数量吗？
And it was a real struggle because it's kind of like, do you go follower numbers?
是看互动率吗？
Do you go engagement?
是看他们是否从中赚钱吗？
Do you go, are people making money from this?
他们是否靠这个全职谋生？
Are they making a full time living from this?
所以，我对影响者的定义是，你在一个特定领域创作内容，但同时也必须涉及你自己。
So my definition of an influencer is that you're creating content in a specific niche but it also has to be about yourself too.
它必须围绕你自己的个性展开，并体现你个人生活的一些方面。
It has to it has to hinge on your own personality and come from some representation of your personal life.
对我来说，影响者的类型有很多。
For me, so there's lots of different kinds of influences.
但对我来说，我关注的是最具商业潜力的影响者。
But for me, I'm looking at like the most commercially friendly influences.
有很多影响者并不依赖品牌合作，或者依赖一些所谓的灰色地带的品牌合作。
There's lots of influencers that don't rely on brand partnerships or rely on kind of, you know, more black market brand partnerships.
还有其他形式的变现方式。
And there's other forms of monetization.
但对我来说，那些通常成功的影响者都是在与品牌合作。
But for me, people who generally are successful influencers are working with brands.
而这直接是因为他们在做赞助内容，推广各种各样的产品。
And that's kind of directly because they're doing sponsored content where they advertise, you know, whatever it may be.
我举的例子总是戴森Airwrap，我不知道为什么。
My example for this is always like a Dyson Airwrap, I don't know why.
但你知道，比如他们在推广头发护理产品，这类内容，从女性化角度来看，你也可以有游戏创作者和影响者推广游戏和游戏设备。
But you know, like, you know, they're advertising like, like hair products, like that, I mean, on the feminised side of it, you could have gaming creators and influencers that are, you know, advertising games, gaming equipment, you know.
你可以有汽车影响者、枪支影响者，但必须是源自他们自身的东西。
You can have car influencers, gun influencers, but but it has to be like, you know, something from themselves.
所以他们直接与广告商合作，但同时也通过他们所使用的平台间接从广告商那里赚钱，因为这些平台通常都有创意基金。
So they're working with advertisers directly, but then they're also getting money from advertisers indirectly via the platforms that they work on because usually those platforms will have a creative fund.
所以你会因为吸引观看量、吸引购买型受众而获得报酬。
So you'll get paid, like, for attracting views from attracting an audience, a buying audience.
是的，我认为这就是影响者的定义，但这个界限非常模糊。
So yeah, so I think that's what makes an influencer, but it's so grey.
现在这个界限实在太模糊了。
There's such a grey area now.
你是一个在某方面有专长的内容创作者，还是一个有专长并制作内容的人？
Are you a content creator who's an expert in something, or are you an expert in something that creates content?
这个界限真的非常难以厘清，我觉得。
Like, it's it's it's the the line is really is really challenging, I would say, to kind of unpick.
对。
Right.
而且我觉得很多挑战也来自于，很多网红自己并不认为自己是网红。
And I think a lot it's also challenging because a lot of influencers are like, I'm not an influencer.
对吧？
Right?
比如我关注了一些极端的传统家庭主妇型网红，她们说：我不是网红。
Like, I follow all of these, like, fundamentalist trad wife influencers who are like, I'm not an influencer.
我只是不停地拍一些关于我所有孩子的奇怪视频，并通过我的链接赚钱。
I just am constantly creating weird videos about all of my children and make money from all of my links.
但我真的不是网红。
But, like, I'm not an influencer.
对吧？
Right?
因为有一种观念认为，这涉及到你书中三分之一内容所讨论的‘真实性生产’问题。
Because there is this idea that, like, it and this gets into something that you talk about in a solid third of your book, which is the production of authenticity.
是的。
Yeah.
如果你自称是网红，那似乎就显得不真实了。
That somehow if you announce yourself as an influencer, that's inauthentic.
对。
Yeah.
没错。
Right.
这正是关键所在。
And that's and that's the thing.
我认为大多数职业网红都不会使用这个词。
And I think most professional influencers don't use the term.
社交媒体平台也不使用这个词，因为没人喜欢自己被影响这个想法。
The social media platforms also don't use the term because no one likes the idea that they've been influenced.
这其实不是好事。
It's actually not a good thing.
就像，这并不是因为，我的意思是，是的，网红文化真的很奇怪，因为正如你所说，它依赖于这种真实性、现实感和可信度。
Like it's like, it's not, it's because it goes, it's I mean, yeah, influencer culture so weird because like you said, it hinges on this authenticity, this reality, this trustworthiness.
所以，在所有这些内容背后，总有一种潜台词：我永远不会推广我并不真正喜爱的东西。
So there's always this missive underneath everything that's like, I would never promote something unless I genuinely love it.
但事实并非如此，因为你有车贷，有房贷，你知道，你可以勉强把一些接近你可能会推荐的东西包装成那样。
But that's not true because you have car payments, you have a mortgage, you know, like you can kind of retrofit things that are close enough to something that you would maybe recommend.
是的，你看，这种想法是，人们并不想自称是网红。
Yeah, see there's this, yeah, this idea that like people don't want to claim the label of influencer.
大多数人使用‘内容创作者’这个说法。
Most people use content creator.
平台也这么用，因为它们不希望人们意识到，你是在影响、推广大量商业内容，而‘内容创作者’听起来更像创意，更有趣，而不是营销导向。
That's what the platforms use too because they don't want the idea that people are like you know influencing, promoting lots of commercial content and content creator lines more of like creativity and, you know, like things that sound more fun and less marketing orientated.
完全正确。
Totally.
你觉得这个问题的第二部分，关于这些节奏、梗和再梗，比如视频或者截取片段，会怎样呢？
Where do you think the second part of this question about how these like the cadences, the the memes and memes again can be like videos or like taking it.
是的，一小段音乐，然后复制传播。
Yeah, little snippet of music and like reproducing it.
你是什么时候开始注意到这种现象出现在非官方的网红内容里的？
Like, when did you start noticing this popping up in non official influencer content.
我是说，比如你朋友发的内容，像我朋友发她儿子穿着可爱衣服的照片，还加上#OOTD的标签。
So I'm talking about, like, your friend's content, like, my friend, like, posting a picture of her son with a cute outfit and hashtagging it o o t d.
这很有趣，因为网红是社交媒体平台上的重度用户，而且——
I mean, it's interesting because influencers are the power users on social media platforms and like,
而Instagram有意调整了它的算法。
and Instagram has intentionally torqued its algorithm.
所以我们看到更多专业创作者，实际上，我不太清楚具体原因，但你知道，你的朋友圈里总会有一部分是专业创作者。
So we see more kind of professional creators because I actually, I mean, I don't actually really know the reason for that, but you know, there's you are gonna get like a healthy mix of professional creators amongst your friends.
这些就是我们看到并消费的内容，这并不是一个媒体影响的论点，但我认为这些人改变了社交媒体平台的文化，因为这就是我们所看到的。所以我认为这确实存在。
Like these are the people that we are seeing that we're consuming and this isn't like a media effects argument, but I would argue that it these people change the culture of social media platforms because that's what we're So so I think there's definitely that.
而且，我们其实也处在与网红相似的工作环境中。
And then also we are kind of all working in the very similar conditions influencers are working in.
就像我们希望自己的内容有人关注。
Like we want an audience for our stuff.
我们发布东西，是因为希望有人看到。
Like we post things because we want people to see them.
同样，那些非专业的网红在创作内容时，也必须面对相同的算法环境和创作吸引人、真实内容的期望。
And similarly, you know, non professional influencers who are creating content like also have to fight with the same sort of algorithmic conditions and the same expectations of creating engaging authentic content.
我经常被问到这个问题：我们是在单纯模仿网红，还是说我们和网红处在相同的环境中，然后自己也创作出了内容？
I get this question a lot, which is like, so are we just all copying influencers or are we in the same, working in the same conditions as influences and then we're coming up with stuff ourselves?
我认为这个问题的答案其实是两者兼有。
And I think the answer is kind of both to that question.
我们看到了这些趋势，但同时，我们也确实希望获得关注，并且是有策略的人。
Like we're seeing it, but also we, you know, we do want to be visible and we are strategic people.
你可能会想，我之前发过一张和家人一起做某事的照片，很多人互动并喜欢了那条内容。
You will probably think to yourself, like I posted something that, you know, showed me doing this with my family and a lot of people engaged with it and liked that content.
所以你可能会更多地这么做。
So you're probably gonna make more of it.
对。
Right.
或者你可能会再发一些内容
Or you're probably gonna post something
像那样的东西。
like that again.
等等。
Wait.
我觉得有时候人们低估了，人们并不把Instagram当作自己的家庭相册。
Like, it's I think sometimes people discount, like, people are not using Instagram as, like, their personal family album.
对吧？
Right?
不是的。
No.
如果他们发布了一张照片，就是希望有人能看到这张照片，还能和他们聊聊这张照片。
They want people to see they if they're posting a photo, they want people to see it and to talk to them about it.
所以任何能产生这种互动的内容，你都会内化吸收——不管你有没有清晰地意识到这一点，你都会把真正有用的内容记在心里。
And so whatever creates that engagement, you internalize, whether it's, like, very super conscious or not, you internalize what works.
我们的大脑本来就是这么运转的。
Like, that's just how our minds work.
对。
Yeah.
完全没错。
Exactly.
而且我觉得，你也知道，有这么一种
And I think, you know, there
说法是Ins平台喜欢带人脸的内容，但问题就来了，到底是我们人类本身就喜欢看人脸？
is this theory that Instagram loves faces, but then but then it's the question of, like, is do we do humans just love faces?
你明白吗？
You know?
如果我们看到一个笑容满面的人，我们是不是更有可能与之互动呢？
Are we actually more likely to engage with something if we, like, see, if we see a person like, you know, a smiley person, whatever.
但我特别着迷于那些装得像网红一样的人。
But I am obsessed with people who are like really acting like they're influencers.
是的，是的，是的。
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
比如你并没有很多粉丝，却说话的样子好像有似的。
As in your, you're like, don't have a big following, but you're, but you, you're speaking like you do.
对。
Yeah.
我有些家人就是这样，我其实挺喜欢的，因为这真的很有趣。
And I have some family members that do that and I, I kind of love it because it's really, I mean, it's, it's so interesting.
但我觉得布鲁克·艾琳·达菲经常提到的一个概念是憧憬型劳动。
But I think one thing that Brooke Erin Duffy talks a lot about is aspirational labor.
很可能是真的，这个人确实希望改变自己的职业道路。
It's really, you know, potentially true that this person does want a changing career path.
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我想，有一种观点认为，只要你发布自己、只要把自己展现出来，一切就可能开始爆发。
I And guess there is this idea that if you just post yourself, if you just put yourself out there, then it all might kick off.
比如你真的可能积累起一批粉丝。
Like you really might grow a following.
我觉得是这样，是的。
And I think that, I yeah.
这种观念背后有一种传说，而且确实有人正朝着成为一名专业内容创作者的职业目标努力。
There is a lore in that idea and, you know, potentially someone is really aiming towards a professional content creation job.
完全正确。
Totally.
我在巴马新生选拔初期发布的那些TikTok视频中看到了太多这样的情况。
I see it so much in the the TikToks that are produced during the very beginning of rush for Bama Rush.
是的。
Yes.
因为有些女孩已经练习了多年，非常擅长如何面对镜头、如何打光，等等所有细节。
Because you have girls who have been practicing for years and who are, like, like, very savvy to all like, how to talk to the camera, how to light themselves, everything.
她们就是懂。
They just get it.
然后还有其他女孩觉得，我也可以做到。
And then they have there are other girls who are like, I can do this too.
对我来说，那些人总是最值得看的，是的。
And for me, those are always the most interesting ones to watch Yeah.
因为她们的观众很少，但依然努力坚持。
Because they have such a small audience, but they still, like, push themselves.
你能看出她们其实很痛苦，却像经历一场耐力考验一样硬撑着。
And you can tell they're kind of miserable, but they're pushing themselves through it like an endurance gauntlet almost.
因为她们觉得
Because they're like
我知道。
I know.
我既然开始了，那就得继续下去。
Well, I started doing these, so I guess I gotta keep doing them.
就是这样，哦，就是这样。
It it's Oh, that's like it.
是的。
Yeah.
而且，你是不是也发现，这就像创办一个Substack之类的东西。
And also, do you have a lot like, I mean, it's like it's like starting a substack or something.
完全没错。
It's just like Totally.
你只是发布内容，然后它可能会吸引到自己的观众。
You just like and it might catch its audience.
这确实是个很好的练习，挺不错的。
And it is it is a good exercise like, it's nice.
再说一遍，我经常提到的一点是，在当前创意产业的环境下，能够真正进行创作、产出作品，并且有明确职业路径的平台非常少——新闻业的现状如此，像在英国，艺术和戏剧领域的资金也大幅削减或停滞不前。
Again, One thing I talk about a lot is that with the current state of creative industries, there's very few spaces where you can, you know, actually do something creative, produce something and there is a pathway to a career there, you know, with the state of journalism, with the state of, like, in The UK, a lot of that, like, arts and theater funding has been slashed or has stagnated.
你知道，选择非常有限，尤其是在英国，这非常受阶级影响。
You know, there's very few options, like, apart from, especially in The UK, it's very, very class driven.
你知道，如果你不是出身于非常优渥的背景，想要进入创意产业真的非常困难。
You know, if if you're not from a super privileged background, it's really, really tough to break into creative industries.
但社交媒体确实提供了这种可能性，对吧？你可以成功，可以创作内容，我们也在像巴马拉什这样的内容中看到这一点，比如我经常关注的那些古怪、搞笑的角色，像巴马·摩根。
But social media does offer this promise, right, like, that you can be successful and you can make content and and and we also see that in like Bama Rush stuff, like it's, you know, these oddball, like goofy characters like Bama Morgan I followed a lot, you know.
是的。
Yeah.
我不是说她是个古怪的傻瓜，抱歉。
Like, I'm not saying that she's an oddball goofball, sorry.
但我意思是
I but like
我的意思是，让她出名的部分原因正是她没有像其他人那样表演。
I mean, was That's part of what made her famous was that she wasn't acting like all of the rest of them.
对。
Yeah.
没错。
Well, exactly.
她只是做自己，然后就是这样。
She was kind of being herself and then and yeah.
而且她就像你说的，那种更有趣的人，你根本猜不到谁会走红。
And she and she's a really like you said, that's like a kind of more interesting person that you you don't know who is gonna get picked up.
是的。
Yeah.
我的意思是，我们完全可以
I mean, that we could
我可以跟你聊上七十五分钟关于巴马·摩根的事。
I could talk to you like for seventy five more minutes about Bama Morgan.
我知道。
I know.
不过她看起来挺好的。
She seems fine, though.
哦，对的。
Oh, yeah.
但她也内化了这种目光，我的意思是，这是我们可以在后续问题中探讨的：你如何开始内化他人的凝视。
But she also has, like, internalized I mean, this is something that we can talk about in the further questions about how you begin to internalize the gaze of Yeah.
你的观众对你的行为，尤其是你在线上的行为的影响。
Your audience in your behavior and especially your behavior online.
但好吧。
But okay.
下一个问题是关于
This next question is about
好的。
Okay.
网红及其粉丝，以及他们对彼此的期待。
Influencers and their followers and what they expect from them.
这个问题来自希拉里。
This comes from Hillary.
我很好奇，为什么人们要求网红对每件事都必须表明立场。
I'm really curious about this demand for influencers to have a position on everything.
比如，是什么促使人们期待他们那些可能尚未成熟、未经深思熟虑且完全与他们的品牌无关的观点呢？
Like, what's driving the desire for their opinions that are probably not terribly developed or studied and totally outside their brands?
我的意思是，这个问题或许与拟社会关系有关？
I mean, maybe this question is about parasociality?
我不确定，但我很希望听到一些相关的讨论。
I'm not sure, but I'd love to hear some discussion on it.
说吧。
Talk.
我们会的。
We will.
是的。
Yes.
让我们来谈谈这个。
Let's talk about it.
我觉得这个问题非常有趣，因为在我看来，我关注的许多网红其实对他们发表观点这件事非常谨慎。
What is I find this question really interesting because to my mind, I actually think that many of the influencers I follow are very careful about what they have opinions on.
对。
Right.
然后他们只对真正有看法的事情发声，是的。
And then pick pick what they do have opinions on, like yeah.
所以告诉我，当你听到这个时，你在想什么
So tell me what you're thinking when
你听到这个时有什么想法。
you hear this.
我是个狂热的Bravo粉丝，我关注《Summerhouse》的演员们。
So I'm a big kind of Bravo fan, and I follow, like, the cast of Summerhouse Bravo.
Summerhouse的参与者都是网红，你知道的，他们中的很多人——我不确定是否需要解释《Summerhouse》是什么，但简单说就是一档真人秀，每年夏天他们都会去汉普顿，特别吸引人。
Summerhouse are all influences, you know, like a lot of them, like, I don't know if I have to explain what Summerhouse is, but basically it's just like a reality TV show where they all go out to the Hamptons every summer and it's like so compelling.
不管怎样，我超爱这个节目。
I do, anyway, I love it.
但他们都是专业的网红。
But they and they're kind of all professional influences.
而且是的。
And yeah.
你知道吗，当曼达米当选纽约市市长的那天，我的整个Instagram动态都是关于这件事。
You know, on the day that Mandami was elected mayor in New York City, like, that was my whole Instagram.
每个人发的Instagram故事都是这件事，包括那些人。
Like, that was my whole Instagram stories from everyone, including Yeah.
这主要是来自英国、不住在纽约的人。
And that's, you know, mostly people in The UK who don't live in New York.
在所有《Summerhouse》的演员中，却一片寂静，这让我觉得非常不可思议，因为他们年纪稍微小一点。
From all of the Summerhouse cast, it was completely silent, which to me was wild because, you know, they're they're younger a little bit.
其中一些人确实是。
Some of them are.
他们是Z世代，对女权主义之类的事情非常直言不讳，比如那种‘搞到钱就对了’类型的女权主义，你知道的，就是那种‘男人真烂’之类的观点。
They're Gen Z and, you know, they're quite outspoken on things like feminism or like, kind of like a secure the bag type feminism, you know, but still, like, you know, men suck, like, that kind of thing.
但他们平时都很敢说，那天却出奇地安静。
But like but but they're quite kind of outspoken and it was like absolute cricket.
然后我试着在Summerhouse的子版块发帖，问了问，结果那个子版块说：这里不讨论政治。
And then I tried to post in the subreddit for Summerhouse, like, what and then and then the subreddit was like, no talk about politics.
这不是合适的地方。
This is not the space.
我当时想：哦，天哪。
And I was like, oh, no.
这真让人烦。
This is annoying.
我很喜欢你试着在子版块发帖，我当时就想：为什么？
I love that you tried to post in the subreddit to see if it I was like, why
他们怎么不谈政治呢？
aren't they talking about politics?
但不管怎样，我说这些只是为了说明，其实他们并不喜欢，这里有两个原因。
But anyway, this is just all to say, like, yeah, I would say actually, they like they they don't like and so there's two things here.
比如在书里，我提到欧莱雅，欧莱雅做过很多文章，讲他们如何寻找代言人以及如何决定与谁合作。
Like, one so in the book, I talk about L'Oreal's like, L'Oreal have done a lot of articles about how they find influences and how they decide to work with them.
他们使用大量自动化软件来扫描你发布的每一条内容。
And they use a lot of kind of automated software to go through every single single one of your posts that you've ever made.
哇。
Wow.
所以，如果你曾经批评过这个品牌，有过任何可能引发争议的政治观点，发布过他们所谓的裸照，或者任何可能带有性暗示的内容，比如稍微大胆一点的东西。
So if you've ever criticized the brand, if you've ever had like a potentially divisive political opinion, if you've ever posted what they call a nude, or, you know, potentially like sexual content in any way, like something that might be a bit risque.
他们根本不会跟你合作。
Like, they are not gonna work with you.
他们会检查一切。
They check everything.
他们非常、非常规避风险。
They're very, very risk averse.
所以，这就是其中一点。
So there's that.
我认为专业博主都清楚这种情况。
Like, I think professional influencers know that that is the case.
而且这还会产生一种寒蝉效应。
And there's kind of a chilling effect.
我在书里还提到了迪伦·马尔瓦尼，还有她和百威合作的经历，就是说如果真的出了事、爆发危机，很多品牌都会极其不负责任，他们会立刻和你切断联系，就是这样。
I also talk in the book about, like, Dylan Mulvaney and her experience of working with Budweiser and and, you know, how a lot of these brands are really, really unsupportive if actually something happens and there is a crisis, they will just like cut ties immediately and Yep.
没错。
Yep.
所以，就是这么回事。
So, yeah.
所以这类风险就是摆在你面前的问题。
So you've got that those kinds of risks.
就好比你在任何场合发表了政治相关的言论时，都会碰到这种情况。
It's like when you're political in any way.
另外还有一件事我近来也思考得很多，那就是算法层面的问题。这点我们其实没法百分百笃定，但怎么说呢，Instagram看起来确实会压制各类政治言论，尤其是和巴勒斯坦这类议题相关的内容。
And then also there is something I've been thinking about more as well, which is like the algorithmic side of it, which we know well, we don't know, but we I mean, it really seems like Instagram depresses any kind of political speech, but especially about topics like Palestine.
对。
Yep.
所以，你知道，如果你的全部曝光度、你的整个工作都依赖于通过社交媒体触达受众，那么一旦你的账号被限流或封禁，失去对受众的接触，你的工作也就没了。
And so, you know, that if your whole visibility, if your whole job relies on being able to reach your audience, like, via social media, then if your account gets moderated, taken down, if you lose access to that audience, then your job is gone.
因此，这样把自己暴露出来风险巨大。
So there's a huge risk about putting yourself out there like that.
所以，我也看不到我所研究的那些艺术家或相关影响者在政治内容方面有太多表现。
So I also see don't see very much, like from the artists that I studied or influences like in terms of political content.
是的。
Yeah.
但我很好奇，还可能有哪些其他立场。
But I wonder what other kind of positions it could be.
我的意思是，因为确实如此。
I mean, because yeah.
我再次回到这个问题上。
I'm I'm just at the question again.
我再仔细看看这个问题，其实我觉得我之前对它有点误解了。
I'm looking at the question again, and this is actually I I feel like I've I misinterpreted it slightly.
所以它说，她提到，人们对网红要求他们对每件事都表明立场，这让我很好奇。
So it says she says, I'm really curious about this demand for influencers to have a position on everything.
我会说，我经常有这种感觉。
And I will say that I feel that all the time.
事实上，我多次谈过巴勒斯坦，表达过我对巴勒斯坦的支持，反对种族灭绝，这些内容我都在Instagram上发过很多次。
Like, I have actually said many times, like, talk I've talked about Palestine and my support for Palestine and this against genocide, all these sorts of things on my Instagram many times.
但只要我一个月没发帖，还是会收到消息。
But I still get messages if I haven't posted in, like, a month.
是的。
Yeah.
你为什么对巴勒斯坦保持沉默？
Why are you silent on Palestine?
对吧？
Right?
我觉得，这种持续的压力确实存在。
And, like, I think that's there is this ongoing pressure.
有些人会把沉默理解为，只要你不是持续发帖，就等于沉默。
There are some types of people who understand silence as or, like, any sort of, like, not if you're not continually posting as silence.
当是的。
When Yeah.
如果你考虑算法，你一旦发帖，实际上就会让你的账号被埋没。
If you think about the algorithm, if you post on it, then that actually buries your account.
所以这实际上是自己让自己沉默，是的。
So it's actually silencing yourself Yeah.
通过发帖。
By post.
你知道吗
Do you do you know what
我的意思是？
I mean?
很复杂。
Complicated.
可能会发出来，并且认真对待它。
Might post it and really come with it.
我看到过，因为这并不一定如此，而且可能也不是这样；我觉得分享这些团结的信息确实非常重要，以表明你是谁、你的立场在哪里。
Seen it because it's not and it might not be also I'm you know, I think sharing these messages of solidarity is really obviously important to show what, you know, who you are and where you stand.
但我在想，这虽然很老派，比如乔迪·迪恩的‘沟通资本主义’，我们在这种平台上分享这些信息，本质上是为了盈利。
But like, I am thinking about, you know, this is like super old school, but like Jodie Dean's communicative capitalism, like thinking about, you know, we're sharing these kind of messages on this for profit.
那么，我们到底在向人们要求什么？
So, like, you know, what are we really asking from people?
这真的那么重要吗？
Like, is it so essential?
我的意思是，我认为确实重要，因为表明你支持那些真正具有挑战性、而主流媒体可能未能充分代表的话题，这种力量是显而易见的。
I mean, I think it is because it's obviously very powerful to to show that you support topics that are, you know, really challenging and and kind of mainstream media might not be fully representative.
但确实如此。
But it it yeah.
就像你说的，对人们来说这要求太多了。
Like you said, it's a lot to to ask of people.
所以我不确定。
So I don't know.
而且我认为，正如希拉里所指出的，这其中有一些是拟社会关系。
Well and I think that it is like as Hillary points to, like, there the some of this is parasociality.
因为我们把消费主义视为参与民主的一种方式，你现在只想消费那些政治立场完全与你一致的网红的内容。
Like, because we think of our consumerism as, like, our ability to participate in democracy now, you wanna be a consumer only of influencers whose politics completely match your own.
对吧？
Right?
所以你要么推动他们表达与你一致的政治观点，要么就与那些不匹配的网红划清界限。
So either you want to push them to surface politics that match your own, or you want to disaffiliate yourself from them if they don't match your own.
是的。
Yeah.
所以这几乎就像是你同意。
So it's almost like you're Yes.
就像你感到痒一样。
Like You're like itching.
你就像在说，来吧，多告诉我点。
You're like, come on, tell me more.
是的。
Yeah.
得赶紧下去。
Need to get down there.
意思是，但我想说的是，我们该如何历史地看待这个问题呢？
Mean, but what I guess, like, how can we historicize this?
比如，相比传统的名人，比如好莱坞明星或音乐人，现在是不是对网红提出更明确的政治立场有更多需求？
Like, is there a demand maybe for influencers to take more of a political position than there was a demand for a traditional celebrity, like a Hollywood type celebrity or a musician?
我知道，像泰勒·斯威夫特，人们一直呼吁更全面地了解她的政治立场。
I know, like, Taylor Swift, there's been a lot of calls for understanding her politics, like, more completely.
而且大家对悉尼·西尼也很不满。
And everyone's very upset about Sydney Sweeney as well.
我知道。
I know.
什么是什么
What what is
那是什么？
that?
关于悉尼·斯威尼，让我觉得特别有趣的是，她成长的地方离我长大的地方只有两小时车程。
So the the thing that's so interesting to me about Sydney Sweeney is she grew up in a place that's two hours from where I grew up.
哦，对啊。
Oh, right.
我是在爱达荷州的乡村长大的，而她是在华盛顿州东部的一个中等城市长大的。
So I grew up in rural Idaho, and she grew up in a mid sized city in Eastern Washington.
这个地方，我不知道你能不能想出一个英国的类似地方。
And this place is like I wonder if you can think of an analog, a UK analog.
这就像一个曾经有不错购物中心的小镇，那里也住着一些民主党人，但没人真的特别左翼。
This it's like a town that's like had a good mall, and, like, there are some Democrats who live there, but, like, no one's, like, super leftist by any means.
而那里人们消遣的方式，就是去开船。
And, like, the thing to do, like, for fun is to, like, go out on your boat.
是的
Yeah.
而且，我认为她的政治观点在很大程度上受到了这些背景的影响。
And, like, her politics are, I think, very much shaped in part by those.
而要拥有这样的政治立场却并不容易被理解，因为在美国文化中，人们普遍认为，如果你是名人，那你非左即右。
And it's, like, not a super legible understanding to be, like, from a like, to have some of those politics still because there is this understanding, I think, in American culture that if you're a celebrity, like, you are on one side or the other.
对吧？
Right?
你要么是狂热的MAGA支持者，要么就是上台支持民主党候选人的左翼人士。
Like, you're either super MAGA or you are, like, a leftist who's, like, coming out on the stage to support, like, Democratic candidates.
两者之间几乎没有中间地带。
Like, there's just not a lot of space in between.
我认为，这种难以归类的特质正是围绕她的争议所在。
And I think that illegibility is the scandal around her.
是的
Yeah.
核心问题就在于她拒绝把自己的立场说清楚。
That's Is that she refuses to clarify.
而现在各类平台兴起后，大家能表达立场的空间多了太多了。
And there's just so much more space now, like, with platforms.
现在大家好像什么事都得有个明确态度，但换作以前，你只能通过接受记者采访来向外界发声，那时候内容会经过更多筛选审核，传递出来的信息也少得多。
Like, there is an expectation for an opinion on everything, and maybe if previously you were communicating to the world through interviews with journalists, you know, there's gonna be a lot more vetting, that's gonna be a lot more sparse.
所以我觉得这也和准社会交往的特点有关，放在过去人们不会对明星有这么强的联结感，也不会这么理直气壮地要求他们表明立场。
So we don't I guess that is that parasociality element because people don't feel as like connected and demanding of celebrities in that way.
对。
Yeah.
但话说回来，我有点拿不准，这就一定是件坏事吗？
But then I don't know, is that necessarily a bad thing?
我也说不清。
I don't know.
从历史视角来思考这件事还挺有意思的，因为在经典好莱坞时期，明星们会彻底抹去自己所有的个人特质。
It's so interesting thinking about this from a, like, historical perspective because in classic Hollywood, what they would do is completely efface any sort of personality.
是的。
Yeah.
对吧？
Right?
如果你是个明星，他们会把你彻底抹去，然后在上面重新塑造。
If you were a star, like, would, like, wipe you clean and then build on top of it.
有些人完全相信这种虚构，但很多人觉得，下面一定有个真实的明星。
And some people totally believed that artifice, but a lot of people were like, there's an actual I know there's an actual real star under there.
所以当时人们对丑闻有如此大的兴趣。
And that's why there was, like, so much appetite for scandal.
对吧？
Right?
不是说谁才是真实的，我知道他们本质上都一样。
It's not like, who's the real like, I know they're all fucking, essentially.
我知道他们都在吸毒，都在乱搞，我只是想找出那层更深的真实感。
Like, I know they're all doing drugs, and I know they're all fucking, and I just wanna find out that hunger for the the second layer of authenticity.
是的。
Yeah.
我认为现在有一种观念，认为因为我们通过社交媒体获得了对明星的所谓无中介接触，所以我们能接触到真相，但其实并不能。
And I think now there is this belief that, like, because we have, quote, unquote, unmediated access to the star vis a vis social media that, like, we're getting, like, we're getting the truth, but we're not.
是的。
Yeah.
对吧？
Right?
我们接触到的仍然是自我表演。
Like, we're getting a performance of self still.
是的。
Yeah.
没错，确实是这样。
Exact Yeah.
但归根结底，这始终都只是自我的一种表演。
And I mean but it can always only be a performance of self.
那确实是唯一可能的事情。
That's really That's like the only thing that's really possible.
是的。
Yeah.
是的。
Yeah.
我喜欢这个问题。
I like this question.
我可以好好想想这个问题。
I'll I'll I can sit with it
更多。
more.
我知道。
I know.
那就是我们。
That's that's us.
我们就是喜欢这个问题。
We're like, we like this question.
让我们继续思考一下。
Let's keep thinking about it.
今天的节目由Honeylove赞助。
Today's episode is brought to you by Honeylove.
所以在圣诞节假期期间，我做了一件我最喜欢的事情之一，那就是每天安排一个小的整理任务。
So over Christmas break, I did something that is one of my favorite things to do, which is to allocate one small clearing out task to each day.
然后花大约一小时完成它，这样在迎接新年时就能轻松应对。
And then just spend like an hour on it and have that done as I go into the new year.
其中有一天，我的任务是清理我的精致收藏品。
And one of those days, the task was clearing out my delicate store.
那里有太多东西了，简直就像个墓地。
And there were so many, like, it's just a graveyard.
你知道我说的是什么意思吧？
Do know what I mean?
有太多文胸了，你总会觉得：哦，这个可能会成为我新的最爱文胸，或者我希望有更多选择，而不是每天都穿同一款。
Like, there are so many bras that you think like, oh, this is gonna become my new favorite bra or, like, I want more options that I'm not just wearing the same one every single day.
但最后你还是每天都穿同一款，因为真的很难找到合身的文胸。
And then you just end up wearing the same one every single day because it's really, really hard to find a bra that works.
我试过这么多不同的款式，每款都承诺能带来不同的效果。
I've tried so many different fits, all of them promising different things.
我要说，Honeylove 的文胸从来不会沦为你文胸墓地里的一件。
And I will say that Honeylove is the bra that does not end up in your bra graveyard.
尤其是交叉款，我特别喜欢。
The crossover bra in particular, I love it.
它超级舒适。
It's super comfortable.
没有钢圈，却依然能让你感觉被托起和支撑。
There's no underwire, but it still somehow manages to make you feel like lifted and supported.
它不是那种我根本记不得自己11岁时买过的文胸。
So it's not like a bra that I don't know that I bought when I was 11.
感觉不像那样。
Doesn't feel like that.
它还有从30到44G的多种尺码，选择非常多。
It's also sized from 30 to forty four g, so there are lots of options.
原版采用柔软可塑的杯型，能贴合你的身体；如果你想要内置衬垫，可以试试交叉款轮廓款。
The original version features soft flexible cups that adapt to your body, but if you want built in pads, you can try the crossover contour.
Honeylove 现在推出了交叉款三件套组合。
Honeylove is now offering a crossover triple bra bundle.
所以，如果你想彻底更新内衣，买三件永远不会进内衣坟场的文胸，一次性购买能省下不少钱。
So if you want to do a full refresh and get three bras that won't go into your bra graveyard, you can get a huge savings by buying three at once.
Honeylove 是一个由女性创立的独立品牌，产品由真正穿着它们的女性设计。
Honeylove is an independent female founded brand with products designed by women who actually wear them.
所以，给自己买一套市场上最先进的文胸吧。
So treat yourself to the most advanced bras on the market.
使用我们的专属链接，在 honeylove.com/culture 上享受 20% 的折扣。
Use our exclusive link to save 20% off Honeylove at honeylove.com/culture.
那是 honeylove.com/culture。
That's honeylove.com/culture.
结账后，他们会问你是从哪里听说他们的。
After you check out, they'll ask where you heard about them.
请支持我们的节目，并告诉他们是我们推荐的。
Please support our show and tell them that we sent you.
体验 Honeylove 带来的全新舒适与支撑标准。
Experience the new standard and comfort and support with Honeylove.
《Culture Study》播客由 Article 赞助。
The Culture Study Podcast is sponsored by Article.
好的。
Okay.
说个真事。
So true story.
前几天我去朋友家，我们聊到他们需要换一张新沙发和一张新茶几。
Was over at my friends the other day, and we were talking about they need a replacement couch and a replacement coffee table.
然后他们就说，哦，我朋友们都在聊一个超棒的品牌。
And they were like, oh, my friends were talking about this incredible brand.
那个牌子的东西特别好。
It's like super nice.
而且定价也没那么贵。
Like, the price point isn't so expensive.
还特别耐用。
It lasts a really long time.
所有商品都一直有货，而且那些家具款式真的很好看。
Everything's always in stock, and the stuff just like is really cute.
然后我就问，哦，你们说的是Article品牌吗？
And I was like, oh, was it Article?
我当时还在想，我这话会不会听起来像是在读播客广告啊？
I was like, oh, am I gonna sound like I'm reading a podcast ad?
但他们真的不是这个意思啦。
But they really weren't.
他们当时聊的就是Article这个品牌。
They were talking about Article.
然后我就说，对嘛。
And I was like, yes.
我确实在播客里推荐过这个品牌，但我们家真的买了好多他们家的东西，而且都特别喜欢。
I, you know, endorse them on the podcast, but we really do have a ton of their stuff and we love it.
所以能把这两件事联系起来，感觉还挺不错的。
So it was nice to to connect those dots.
而且他们最近打算入手一张Article品牌的咖啡桌。
And they're gonna order an Article coffee table soon.
Article在美国和加拿大提供快捷实惠的配送和组装服务。
Article offers fast, affordable shipping and assembly in The US and in Canada.
如果你想完全省心，他们还提供专业组装的可选服务。
They also have options for professional assembly if you want a totally hands off experience.
不过就像我们之前聊过的，Article的一大优点是他们的家具几乎都已经组装好了。
But the great thing about Article, as we've talked about before, is that their stuff comes almost entirely assembled.
所以通常只剩下一两件最后的事情需要处理，而不是要靠五个朋友帮忙才能拼凑出一份二十七项的清单。
So there's usually just like one or two last things that you need to do instead of a 27 checklist that you have to somehow assemble with the help of like five friends.
你也可以在需要时随时获得支持。
You can also get support whenever you need it.
所以如果你有任何问题，或者需要设计方面的帮助，可以联系他们的客服团队，他们每周七天都提供服务。
So if you have a question, if you need help with design, you can use their customer care team, which is available seven days a week.
他们还提供支持和免费的室内设计服务。
And they offer support and free interior design services.
此外，他们还提供三十天满意保证。
And there's also a thirty day satisfaction guarantee.
你可以放心购物，因为如果你对新家具不满意，可以轻松退货。
You can shop with confidence, knowing that if you're not completely in love with your new furniture, you can easily return it.
这种安心感让你可以毫不犹豫地为家居投资。
This peace of mind ensures that you can invest in your home without hesitation.
所以如果你正在寻找一张漂亮的沙发、餐桌或台灯，梅兰妮特别喜欢Article的台灯。
So if you're in the market for a beautiful new sofa, dining table, a lamp, Melanie loves Article lamps.
这么多灯。
So many lamps.
壁灯。
Sconce.
壁灯、休闲椅。
Sconce, lounge chairs.
我们有户外家具。
We have outdoor furniture.
真的，我们从Article买了这么多东西。
Seriously, so many things that we've purchased from Article.
去article.com看看。
Head over to article.com.
下一个问题是来自Adara的。
Next question comes from Adara.
从理解网红文化作为对资本主义工作结构的最初反应，最终却演变为对这些结构的物化，我们可以学到什么？
What can we learn from understanding influencer culture as an initial reaction to capitalist work structures that eventually morphed into a reification of said structures.
我生活中许多微影响力者最初开始影响他人，是为了反抗糟糕的父权制企业九到五工作模式。
Many of the micro influencers in my life began influencing to push back on the shitty patriarchal corporate nine to five.
他们想要更多的时间和灵活性，以便从事无偿劳动和照顾工作。
They wanted time and flexibility to do unpaid labor and care work.
他们也希望超越利润和生产力来理解自己的劳动，并让工作时间做些不同于男性化专业主义的事情。
They also wanted to understand their labor beyond profits and productivity, and to spend their working hours doing something other than performing male coded professionalism.
但如今，我看到他们的生活却变成了资本主义最糟糕的部分。
But now I see their lives looking like the worst parts of capitalism.
他们不断承受着将生活商品化的压力，甚至从最私人的时刻中榨取最大经济价值。
Constant pressure to commodify life and extract maximum monetary value out of even their innermost personal moments.
工作时间与私人时间之间毫无界限。
Zero boundaries between working and personal hours.
永远在追逐着神秘算法带来的关注。
Eternally chasing attention via a mysterious algorithm.
从外部看，这些影响力者似乎正好落入了他们最初试图逃离的结构之中。
From the outside, it looks like influencers played directly into the structures they were trying to escape in the first place.
这种感觉对吗？
Does this read feel correct?
真的存在完全逃离了资本主义的网红吗？
Is there such thing as an influencer who has truly escaped capitalism?
首先，这个问题太棒了。
First of all, fantastic question.
天啊。
Oh my gosh.
我喜欢‘是的’。
I like Yeah.
太棒了。
Love that.
去跟这个人上一门课吧。
Take a class with this person.
我希望这个人来参加我的研讨班。
I want this person in my seminar.
想想都觉得会很有意思。
Like, that'd be fun.
对。
Yeah.
那要从
Where do
哪里开始聊起呢？
you wanna start here?
对。
Yeah.
其实，这是我在自己的图书巡回宣传中聊过的一个话题。
I mean, so something that I kind of talked about on my on my book tour.
说起来我其实没怎么正经办巡回活动，主要就是在我的图书分享会上聊到过。
I mean, I haven't really been doing a tour, but in my book talks.
之前我参与那次议会质询的时候，很多人都感到非常震惊——你知道吗，当时我说，没错，这就是为什么那些家庭领域的网红会生很多孩子。
So when I did this parliamentary inquiry, it really blew people's minds that, like, you know, when I kind of said, oh, yeah, that's why, like, family influences have lots of kids.
这是因为，当你有了一个新生儿时，内容会更丰富。
It's because, like, when you have a new baby, it's more content.
大家都说：什么？
Everyone was like, what?
但这确实是真的。
But it's but it's true.
你知道的。
You know?
这百分之百是真的。
It's 100% true.
是的。
Yeah.
没错。
Exactly.
因为婴儿很可爱。
Because babies are cute.
而且我觉得人们可能不好意思说。
And also like, I think people Sorry.
我一年半前刚生了孩子，我觉得这真的很有趣。
I just I have had a baby like a year and a half ago and like, I think it's really interesting.
关于婴儿的内容很多，但人们却不太愿意看幼儿的视频，因为感觉有点不舒服。
There's a lot of content about babies, but then like, no one really wants to watch toddlers in the same way because it's just kind of like unpleasant.
他们总是大哭大闹，非常让人压力大。
They're just screaming a lot and it's all very stressful.
但确实，我觉得很多妈妈博主已经停止更新了，因为内容不够可爱。
But yeah, I think so yeah, a lot of the mom creators have stopped making content because it's not like cute.
不是的。
No.
我觉得在妈妈博主的内容中，存在一个有趣的现象：尤其是婴儿阶段，特别当他们可以被抱着的时候。
I feel like there's, like, this interesting gap that you see in mom creation where it's, like, infant, like, especially especially when they're wearable.
天哪。
Oh my god.
太可爱了。
So cute.
对吧？
Right?
你可以把他们裹起来，放着，然后你就再也看不到他们了，直到他们大约四岁。
Like, can wrap them and, put them and then, like, you don't see them again until they're, like, four.
是的。
Yeah.
没错。
Exactly.
这根本不是人们想看的东西。
It's like, this is not what anyone wants to see.
他们百分之百在吃奶。
Like, they're eating boob, 100%.
这种事情确实在发生。
Like, that is happening.
这并不好。
It's not it's not nice.
但确实如此。
But yeah.
所以我们这边一有压力，网红们就会去向政客们提供证词之类的。
So because we get hard, influencers come and give evidence to, like, the politicians and stuff.
听他们分享对这件事的看法真的很有意思。
Like, you know, it was it was really interesting to hear their perspectives on this.
因为人们根本无法抽身。
It's because, like, people can't step away.
所以阿达拉的这种看法在这个方面完全正确。
So Adara's sense is totally right in this way.
你根本没法休产假。
Like you can't take maternity leave.
所以你只能继续工作，你知道的，因为那正是收入最高的时期。
So you have and you know, because that's gonna be like a peak monetization time.
比如，你有一个年幼的婴儿、新生儿，非常可爱，这背后有大量的内容可以挖掘，但你不能请病假，也不能请丧假——这简直是一个将你生活的方方面面都商品化的工作。是的，人们以为自己可以随心所欲地做任何事，比如随便去度假，但事实上，这个假期也必须围绕能产出什么内容来精心安排，确保内容质量。
Like having, you know, a young baby, a newborn baby, very cute, and there's lots of content and that you can potentially make there and you can't take sick leave, you can't take bereavement leave, like you it is really it's a job where you commodify every single aspect of your life and yeah, like it's this idea that oh I can just like you know do whatever and like I can just take you know like I can just go on vacation but like that vacation is all going to be structured around what kind of content you can get, you know, making sure it's good.
这需要花费大量时间，我完全理解，这确实是对的。
Like, it takes a lot of time, so I absolutely under I think this is a yeah.
这真是对当前发生的一切非常精准的总结。
Really, really good, like, kind of summary of what's happened here.
但确实，我认为一个真正逃离了资本主义的网红——如果你在Instagram或TikTok上分享你的生活，那根本不可能。
But, yeah, I think an influencer that's escaped capitalism, like if you're sharing your life on Instagram or TikTok, then no.
我在想有没有例外，因为确实有很多人过着离网生活。
I'm trying to think of exceptions because there's loads of people that like live off grid.
那些过着离网生活并制作内容的人。
That who are, like, living off grid and producing, like, stuff of them.
我岛上有一位女士。
I there is a lady who lives on my my island.
我住在一个小岛上。
I live on a little island.
谁？
Who?
她只是发一些自己旧的、酷炫的复古服装的照片。
Who she just posts pictures of, like, her old, cool vintage outfits.
是的。
Yeah.
她就只是穿上这些衣服，然后转圈展示。
Like, she just puts them on and, like, twirls around in them.
她的名字，我想是Silly Pink Shoes，这是她的Instagram用户名。
Her name is, I think, Silly Pink Shoes is her Instagram handle.
很可爱。
Cute.
她有大约七万到八万粉丝。
And she has, I think, like, 70,000, 80,000 followers.
她这么做是因为这给了她穿衣服的理由。
And, like, she's doing this because it gives her a reason to put on her clothes.
你懂我的意思吗？
Do you know what I mean?
对。
Yeah.
就是说，她不是那种，她没有接任何商业合作。
Like, she's not like, she doesn't have any deals.
那她算网红吗？
She does like, is she an influencer?
这是个有意思的问题。
That's an interesting question.
对不对？
Right?
还是说她就是那种喜欢向别人展示自己穿搭的人？
Or is she someone who, like, likes showing other people her outfits?
而且我觉得从某种层面上来说，这种行为跳出了资本主义的逻辑。
And I think that that in some ways is outside of capitalism.
对吧？
Right?
对。
Yeah.
但我觉得她算不上网红，因为你没法用同样的方式把这件事变现，不然就是她自己选择不去变现。
But then she's not I would say she's not an influencer because that's you can't monetize that in the same way, or she's choosing not to.
没错。
Right.
对。
Right.
没错。
Right.
因为她只有七八万粉丝，从Instagram创作者基金或者其他任何平台都赚不到多少钱。
Because 70 or 80,000 followers, you're not gonna get enough from, an Instagram creator fund or anything.
是啊。
No.
不。
No.
不。
No.
不。
No.
所以如果你想要赚钱，你会这么做，没错。
So you would if you wanted to make money, which yeah.
她没有。
She doesn't.
这很好。
And that's good.
是的。
Yeah.
但她确实，嗯。
But she so she's yeah.
我的意思是，她算不算一种，我想这又回到了影响者的定义问题。
I mean, is she an like, I guess it this comes back to the definition of influencer.
当我做这项调查时，这挺有意思的，因为我们与一些法律学者合作，他们正在提出一个实用的定义，因为我们需要它用于监管。
And it was cool when I did this inquiry because we worked with legal scholars who were, like, coming up with, a working definition because we needed it for regulation.
所以，从劳动法的角度来看，她不算影响者，我想是这样。
And so I guess for, a working legal reg like, know, for an employment law kind of perspective, she's not an influencer.
对。
Right.
但另一方面，她确实有影响力，也有受众，所以某种程度上她确实是，但这并不是她的工作。
But then, you know, from like she a has a reach and she has an audience, then like, you know, in some ways she is, but but it's not her job.
不。
No.
我认为这个问题的第一部分，是我一直在思考的，关于传统妻子型影响者的问题——尤其是在美国，真正可行的兼职工作非常少。
And I think the first part of this question is something that I've thought about a lot when it comes to trad wife influencers is that there especially in The United States, there are so few viable part time jobs available.
所以很多人都有创业精神。
So a lot of people have an entrepreneurial spirit.
他们都是有野心的人。
They are ambitious people.
对。
Yeah.
但他们的生活处境——不管是出于意识形态原因，还是他们所在的领域在当地根本找不到工作，又或是他们想待在家里不做全职工作——
But the scenario of their life, whether ideological or there's no jobs in their field wherever they live or they want to stay home and not work full time.
摆在他们面前的出路真的非常非常有限。
The avenues open to them are very, very limited.
通常来讲，最后都落到了传销上，对的。
And usually, it comes down to MLMs Yeah.
也就是加入多层次直销项目。
And getting involved in, like, multilevel marketing.
对吧？
Right?
或是做网红博主。
Or influencing.
所以，我喜欢这个问题中提到的这一点，即这些现象某种程度上是对我们当前资本主义体系下有限选择的一种反应。
And so like this, I like that part of the question that's saying, like some of this is a reaction to like the limited options that we have under our current capitalist system.
他们试图找到一种方式，既能待在家里照顾孩子，又能赚点额外的钱。
Like, they're trying to find a way to, like, be at home with their kids and also make a little bit of extra money.
但这种方式究竟如何运作呢？
But, like, how does that even work?
是的。
Yeah.
我认为这会演变成另一种情况。
And I think Turns into this other scenario.
对。
Yeah.
对。
Yeah.
百分之百。
A 100%.
而且，我正在休产假，关注了很多妈妈类的博主。
And, like, being on maternity leave as well, I'm following a lot of mom influences.
比如，人们会公开分享这些经历。
Like that is people openly share that.
有人会说，我必须在这个日期之前成为内容创作者，否则就得回去上班。
Like people are like, I'm trying to become a content creator by this date because otherwise I have to go back to work.
是的。
Yeah.
这种现象非常多。
Like there's a lot of that.
很多人辞掉工作，决定全职做这个，因为确实如此。
Like people quitting their jobs and deciding to do this full time because Yep.
这确实是。
It's yeah.
因为这意味着他们可以待在家里，或者能有更长的时间。
Because it means that they can stay home or it means that they can have a longer time.
而且情况就是这样。
And that's yeah.
这是我觉得非常有意思的一个现象。
That's something I found really interesting.
再者说，这件事本身就带着很强的性别属性，不是吗？
And again, it's very gendered, isn't it?
情况就是这样的。
Like it's this Yeah.
大家只能想办法打拼，来应对职场妈妈身份带来的现实困境——比如要组建家庭，尤其还想做一个时刻陪伴孩子的妈妈，要应付这么多要求，真的难上加难。
Kind of hustle to fit around the impossibility really of how of being a working mother, like having a, like having a family and especially being like a really present mother, like that's really, really challenging with all of these demands.
所以对，我也很喜欢这个问题的这一点。
So yeah, that I really like that part of the question too.
我觉得大家会误以为自己能找到捷径摆脱这种困境。
I think it's people, you think you can like kind of hack your way out of it.
但我发现，要真的做到这点，现实中难度非常大。
And I think it's really challenging to do that in reality.
是的。
Yeah.
我只是想到那些有12个孩子的女性。
Like, I just think of these women who have 12 kids.
我关注的一位女性真的有12个孩子，她现在又怀上了，我觉得是第12个。
Like, one of the women I follow seriously has 12 kids, and she's pregnant with I think she's pregnant with her twelfth right now.
不是。
No.
她还在制作所有这些非常精致的短视频。
And she is also producing all of she's producing all of these, like, really, like, classy reels.
我就想，你是怎么做到的？
And I'm like, how are you doing this?
这需要大量的时间。
Like, that is a lot of time.
而这也总是传统妻子博主的核心矛盾：你一边强调做所有家务、事事亲力亲为、对丈夫绝对顺从是多么重要。
And then also, the and this is always the contradiction at the heart of trad wife influencing is that, like, you're trying to talk about how important it is to to be doing all of this domestic labor and making everything from scratch and, like, always being submissive to your husband.
而且啊，她们还一直在工作，而且很多工作其实都没法带上孩子一起做。
Well, also, you're working all the time, and a lot of that work is actually not involving your kids.
视频里可能会出现你的孩子，但实际工作是
It might be featuring your kids, but it's
没法和孩子一起进行的。
not involving your kids.
对不对？
Right?
那这样的话，你就没法真正全身心投入了，对吧？
Well, it's stopping you being really present, isn't it?
因为你一直忙着对着手机——你整个人都在跟手机打交道。
Because you're on the Like, you're on you're, like, talking to a phone.
你根本就没在和你的家人沟通交流。
Like, you're not talking you're not talking to them.
家庭博主、妈妈博主这个领域真的很有意思，我现在越来越多地在思考这个现象，这其实也很自然，毕竟我刷到的都是这类内容。
It's a really interesting space, family influencing, mom influencing, and that's something I'm thinking about more and more, which is kind of, you know, just like naturally, because it is the kind of content I'm seeing.
但这也是一种对展示艰难时刻和糟糕经历的需求。
But it also is like this thing, like this demand for showcasing challenging moments, like, and bad experiences.
我觉得，在这个领域里，传统妻子类内容其实不一样，因为它非常理想化。
Like I think, especially in this space, it's really I mean, the trad wife stuff is like, I guess different because it's really aspirational.
但我接触到的妈妈们都会说：我要向你展示母职的真实一面。
But the moms I get are like, I'm gonna show you that the real side of motherhood.
我要谈谈其中的挑战。
I'm gonna talk about the challenges.
因此，确实有很多泪水、沮丧和情感上的表演。
And so there is, like, a real, like, you know, a lot of tears and upset and emotional kind of performance.
我觉得很多人会说：这让我感觉没那么孤单了。
And I think, like, a lot of people say, like, oh, this helps me feel less alone.
我认为，人们确实非常渴望分享自己这一面。
There is a real appetite for, I think, people sharing that side of themselves.
是的，这在我看来是一种有趣的情感劳动。
And yeah, it's I mean, it's an interesting kind of emotional labor, I think.
是的。
Yeah.
比如公开谈论流产经历。
Like being public about a pregnancy loss.
对吧？
Right?
是的。
Yeah.
如果你怀孕了然后又没有怀孕，你就会觉得必须分享这件事。
Like that's something that you are compelled to share if you are pregnant and then you are not pregnant.
你得把它讲成一个故事，还必须发帖。
Like you have to narrativize it and you have to have to post it.
对吧。
Right.
我觉得达拉可能在问这个问题时想到的是另一类网红，比如房车生活博主，就是那些试图……是的。
I think also that a Dara might she might have asked this question thinking about a very different subset of influencers, which is like, you know, van life influencers, like people who are trying to, like Yeah.
你知道吗，其实不是朝九晚五的工作。
You know, actually not work nine to fives.
而我们现在谈论的却是妈妈的生活。
And here we are talking about, like, mom life.
但我真的深陷于房车生活、数字游民这类话题了。
But I that that component of, like, I've gotten I've gone way down the rabbit hole on van life stuff and, like, digital nomads and those sorts of things.
而且他们真的。
And they are.
他们被困在斐济，只顾着拍短视频，
They're, like, they're stuck, like, you know, in Fiji just inside making reels instead
而不是像
of like
真正地待在斐济。
being in Fiji.
你懂我的意思吗？
You know what I mean?
完全不是100%。
Exact don't a 100%.
你怎么可能过这种真实的生活呢？
Like, how can you live like this authentic moment?
我明白，这就像那些远离电网、建立另类社区的人，同时还在创作相关内容。
I get and this is similarly like the people who are like building alternative communities off the grid or, you know, and then creating content about that.
你其实依赖于社交媒体的收入，和别人一样来自同一个空间。
It's like you are dependent on income from from social media, from the same kind of space as everyone else.
是的。
Yeah.
对。
Yeah.
另一方面，我想说的是，《大西洋》杂志的记者卡罗琳·米姆斯，她写过关于狗的文章，也写过一篇非常出色的文章，讲的是那些把工作生活直播作为额外创收方式的人。
And the other, like, I guess side of it is, Caroline Mims Nice, the Atlantic journalist who wrote about the dogs, also wrote this really, really good piece about people who livestream their working life as like an an extra layer of monetization.
比如那些直播自己当厨师、送外卖或在仓库工作的人，这种直播可以成为一种令人安心的背景内容，观众会观看并要求他们做某些事情。
So it's like people who live stream like who are like line cooks or people who are like Uber Eats drivers or they work in warehouses and it can kind of be sort of like a comforting background sort of live stream that people watch and then they ask them to do certain stuff.
但这种努力文化确实有一面，就是你试图为自己正在做的事情增加额外的收入来源和变现层次。
But there is that kind of side of the hustle culture where you're just like trying to get additional income streams and additional layers of monetization to what you're doing too.
但接着，你知道，这又回到了我们之前讨论过的所有问题。
But then, you know, it's like all of the same problems that we've already discussed.
是的。
Yeah.
不。
No.
而且我觉得这一点也说明了，这其实又回到了我们试图厘清界限的问题——究竟什么样的人算是始终在做这种事的网红。
And I think that point too, like this goes back to us, like trying to figure out the line between like an influencer who's always doing this.
对吧？
Right?
比如那些把日常生活变成专业厨师日常直播的人。
Like, see people who do it as, like, today in my life is a professional chef kind of thing.
对吧？
Right?
是的。
Yeah.
还有那些只是因为上班太无聊而拍搞笑视频的人。
And then people who are just, like, filming funny videos because they're fucking bored at work.
对吧？
Right?
这是一种在枯燥乏味的劳动中创造娱乐的方式。
And this is, like, a way to create, like, entertainment amidst the tedium and drudgery of, like, whatever your labor is.
但这里有一条界限。
And there is a line.
对吧？
Right?
这两种方式给人的感觉很不一样，至少从内部来看，我觉得其中一个更让人有力量感。
There is a like, one feels much more empowering than the other one does, at least from the inside, I think.
是的。
Yeah.
当然。
Definitely.
我的意思是，是的，因为我作为一名私人厨师在汉普顿工作，这正是我的工作内容。
I mean, yeah, like, because I I also get a lot of, like, I'm a private chef in the Hamptons and this is my Yes.
菜单。
Menu.
但你这么做，其实是在寻求内容创作的机会，对吧？
But that's but you're doing that as, like, you know, again, like, potentially, you're looking to get into content creation opportunities.
这可以当作一份简历或履历，你知道的，比如。
It's can kind of function as a CV, like a resume, you know, like
是的。
Yep.
这是自我推广，你知道的，这种‘是的’。
It's self promotional and that, you know, that Yep.
我想起一个人，他非常有魅力，制作得也很精致，但正如你所说，人们之所以这么做，是有原因的。
I'm thinking of one guy, but he's very charming and, know, it's very, very nicely produced and but but there is a reason that people are are doing that kind of side of it, like you said.
是的。
Yeah.
就像我当保姆的时候，孩子们午睡时我总是看电影，还试着写影评。
Like, it's like when I was a nanny, I would spend the kids nap time watching movies all the time because and trying to, like, write reviews of them.
是的。
Yeah.
这样我就能申请我的硕士学位了。
So that I could go and get an apply for my master's degree.
是的。
Yeah.
而且，你知道，他们实际上是把在汉普顿当厨师这份工作，转变成成为一名数字内容制作人。
And, like, that, you know, like, basically, they're taking this, like, j o b job being a chef in the Hamptons and figuring out how to, like, be a digital producer.
我觉得我们有时会忘记，我们没必要批评说，这个人是在破坏自我认同，或者觉得他们必须把一切都商品化。
And I think that that sometimes that we forget that, like, we don't have to critique this as, like, this person is, like, like, messing with their sense of self or, like, they feel like they have to commodify everything.
不是这样的。
It's like, no.
他们正在尝试学习另一项技能，而这种方式既能赚钱，又能学习这项技能。
They're trying to learn another skill, and this is like a way to make money and also learn that skill.
这就像一个有报酬的实习。
It's like a paid internship.
是的。
Yeah.
我经常被问到一个问题，就是：这一切真的那么糟糕吗？
And that's a question I get a lot like, is like, is it all so bad?
真的那么糟糕吗？
Is it so bad?
你知道，其实并没有。
You know, like and it's not.
我的意思是，社交媒体的承诺确实蕴含着真正的创造力可能性。
I mean, the promise of social media is like, there is a real promise of creativity.
有时候人们真的在做很酷的事情。
People are doing really cool stuff sometimes.
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