中世纪性事

对吧？

Right?

你和家庭住在一起。

You're living with families.

这怎么运作？

How does this work?

有没有公认的时间和地点？

Is there an accepted time and place?

有没有类似约会之夜这样的安排？

Do you is there, like, date night?

到底会发生什么？

What what goes on?

其中经常发生的一件事是不在家里发生性行为。

Well, one of the things that happens rather a lot is having sex not in the house.

是的。

Yeah.

田野里有很多性行为。

There's a lot of shagging in fields.

是的。

Yeah.

简直多得不得了，因为你基本能保证有一定的隐私。

Just, like, absolutely tons of it because you can sort of be guaranteed some privacy.

我们知道还有一些特定的地方，比如现在所谓的‘野外性行为’地点，那里有树林之类的地方，人们会去那里。

We know that there are also particular places kind of like, dogging now where there'll be, like, woods and stuff that people go.

比如在布里斯托尔，有一片树林被称为‘操树林’，因为他们根本不在乎。

So for example, in Bristol, they had a bunch of woods that was called fucking woods because they don't care.

他们去那里不是来玩的。

They're not here to play.

对吧？

Right?

他们就是说，对，那就是你做爱的那片树林。

They're like, yeah, that's the woods that you fucking.

是的。

Yeah.

这会很模糊。

That's gonna be ambiguous.

是的。

Yeah.

那么，这就会是那种情况。

And then so and that would be the sort of thing.

你走出家门，然后就在那里做。

You go out of your house, and then you do that there.

不过，这类事情也有规定。

Now there are rules to this sort of stuff as well.

他们说：嘿，请尽量遵守某种规范。

They're like, mean, please try to have some kind of model.

比如，深入田野很远的地方。

Like, go real far into the field.

别在路边直接做。

Don't do it right next to the road.

走进树林里。

Go into the woods.

还有一些关于这类行为的规矩，比如请不要进教堂里做爱。

And then there's rules about things like, please don't go inside churches and have sex there.

还有许多这类传闻，说某些情侣趁教堂没人、没做礼拜时偷偷溜进去做爱，因为那时里面空荡荡的，而且还干燥。

And there are all these apocryphal stories about so and so couples snuck off to have sex in the church because when services aren't on, it's empty and it's dry.

是的。

Yeah.

然后他们俩就粘在一起了。

And they get stuck together.

他们的惩罚是要去朝圣，而全镇的人都会说：你们在教堂里偷情，现在被赤身裸体游街示众。

And then their punishment is they kind of have to go on a pilgrimage and all the townspeople are like, you were shagging in the church while they're paraded around naked in front of them.

这是中世纪经典故事之一，人们总爱拿那些偷情的人开玩笑。

It's one of these classic medieval stories about how, everyone likes to make fun of people who were shagging.

所以你会觉得这很可能正在发生。

So you get this sense that's probably something that's going on.

人们偷偷溜进教堂。

People are sneaking into the church.

没错。

Exactly.

因此，在了解中世纪的性行为时，你必须审视大量带有敌意的证词，因为大多数流传下来的信息都来自法律文件或教会文件，而这些文件都在说：请别再这样做了。

And and so these are the things with learning about sex in the medieval period, you have to look at a lot of really hostile witnesses Because most of what's going to come to us is going to come from legal documents or church documents, and they are being like, please stop doing this.

然后你就明白了，哦，原来是这样。

And then you're like, oh, okay.

所以当时就是这种情况。

So that's what was going on.

太棒了。

Fantastic.

对吧？

Right?

那朝圣呢？

What about, pilgrimage?

我想我们以前聊过，你提到过‘在路上发生的事，就留在路上’这个说法。

I think you and I have talked before, you talked about this idea of what happens on the road, stays on the road.

哦，伙计们，伙计们，伙计们，伙计们，伙计们。

Oh, lads, lads, lads, lads, lads.

你知道的。

You know?

这就像一场橄榄球巡回赛。

It it it's like a rugby tour.

这就像一场单身派对。

It's like a hen's night.

在获得全大赦的时候，正是做爱的绝佳时机。

It is a fantastic time to do some shagging because you're under plenary indulgence.

这意味着你在朝圣期间基本上不会犯罪。

So that means basically you don't sin while you're on pilgrimage.

真的吗？

Really?

是的，因为你当时处于一种状态，你。

Yeah, because you're well, you're.

对，你就像是，去吧，放手去做。

Well, Yeah, you're like, go for it.

想做什么就做什么。

Do whatever you want.

真的吗？

Really?

上帝喜欢这种事。

God loves that stuff.

事实上，

In fact,

打破一些禁忌。

break some culls.

它是

It's

将会是。

going to be.

会很美。

Gonna beautiful.

对吧？

Right?

所以我们知道，尤其是在低地国家中世纪后期，也就是现在比利时和荷兰一带，存在着类似‘公鸡骑士’这样的角色，他们会四处游荡，戴着小阴茎帽之类的东西。

And so we know, especially in the later medieval period in the lowlands, so kind of what is now Belgium and The Netherlands, there is the equivalent of, you know, how, like, hen's knights, they'll be going around, like, wearing a little penis hat and things like that.

当时人们会佩戴一些极其淫秽的朝圣者徽章。

There are these pilgrims badges that they would wear at the time that are completely obscene.

我个人最喜爱的是一个戴着小王冠的阴户，由三条长着腿的阴茎抬着游行。

So my personal favorite is a vulva that's wearing a little crown that is being carried on a litter by three penises that have legs.

对。

Right.

太棒了。

Great stuff.

教堂是

The church is

看看那些圣物。

like, look at those saintly relics.

没错。

Exactly.

它们成百上千地流传至今。

And they survived to us in the hundreds.

这类东西非常多，而且非常便宜。

Like, there are so many of these things and they're really cheap.

它们是用锡铅合金制成的。

They're made out of pewter.

这是一种你可以买到的东西。

It's the sort of thing that you can buy.

有趣的是，最初有些人会说，也许这些是生育护身符。

And hilariously, originally, some people would be like, well, maybe they're fertility charms.

然后我就想，姐妹。

And I'm like, girl.

是的。

Yeah.

请对自己诚实一点。

Please be honest with yourself.

对我们来说，这件事特别有趣的一点是，我们可以看到教会对此许多事情都视而不见，因为朝圣对他们来说收益巨大。

So one of the things that is really interesting about that for us is that we can see there that the church is turning a blind eye to a lot of stuff because, hey, pilgrimage is great for them.

对吧？

Right?

因为你最终会到达那个地方，祈祷，然后捐钱。

Because you're gonna you're going to end up at whatever that site is, and you're going to pray, and you're going to give them a donation.

你会买下最大的那支蜡烛，而他们之所以这么做，是因为他们对自己纵容的那些放纵行为感到有点内疚。

You're gonna buy the biggest candle that there is, and that is going to be something that's assured because they are gonna feel a little guilty about all the shagging.

然后他们可以说，嘿。

And then they can go, hey.

没关系。

It's fine.

你做得很好，姑娘。

You're doing great, girl.

而且这也会让人们因为玩得太开心而更愿意去参加更多的朝圣活动。

And it will also mean that people will want to go on further pilgrimages because they had so much fun.

对吧？

Right?

哇。

Wow.

这简直就是宗教狂热、休闲娱乐和性自由的结合体。

What a like a legion of religiosity and recreation and sexual freedom.

这真是一段奇妙的经历，不是吗？

That's a ride, isn't it?

你可以让人们离开家，去看看世界，体验一些东西，但他们是在上帝的时间表下进行的。

You can so people can leave home, see the world, experience something, but they're on God's time.

这有一种神圣的目的。

There's a sort of holy purpose.

这有点像现在的孩子们进行间隔年，做一些孤儿院志愿工作，同时经历一些成年仪式般的体验。

It's a bit like kids going on their gap year today and doing a little orphanage work, but whilst having some coming of age experiences.

没错。

Exactly.

真的非常相似。

It is really, really similar.

而且我们看到，人们也会为玛乔丽·肯普哭泣，她是我个人的死对头。

And and we see, people also kind of cry this Marjorie Kemp, one of my personal enemies.

我觉得她是最糟糕的。

I think she's the worst.

她是谁？

And who is she?

她是一位来自诺福克的中世纪晚期女性。

So she is a late medieval woman from Norfolk.

她来自当时称为主教林的地方，如今叫国王林。

So she hails from what is then Bishop's Lynn, but is now King's Lynn.

她是一位非常成功的女商人，但她渴望成为圣人。

She is a very successful businesswoman, but she wants to be a saint.

因此，她委托撰写了一部关于自己生平的自传。

So she commissions an autobiography about her own life.

她所行的主要奇迹就是四处哭泣，惹人烦扰。

And the main miracle that she does is like go around crying and annoying people.

她说，因为我实在太被对耶稣的爱所感动了。

And she's like, because I'm just so overcome by how much I love Jesus.

她还编造了一个奇怪的说法：当她朝圣时，其他朝圣者因为她在每餐前都要祈祷而把她赶出了朝圣队伍。

And she has this whole weird lie about how when she's on pilgrimage, her fellow pilgrims kick her off pilgrimage because she wants to pray at every meal.

他们说：我们想做爱。

And they're like, we wanna have sex.

走开，女士。

Get out of here, lady.

所以，这显然是夸张的说法。

And so it's like, obviously, this is an overstatement.

对吧？

Right?

很可能有很多人朝圣是出于正当理由，但也有很多朝圣者并非我所谓的动机不纯。

There probably are plenty of people who are on pilgrimage for the right reasons, but there are a lot of pilgrims who are on there for not I'm gonna call them the wrong reasons.

我称之为他们有其他的动机。

I'm gonna call them they have a different motive.

是的。

Yeah.

没错。

That's right.

就这些了。

That that's all.

没错。

That's right.

这真有意思。

So How interesting.

那不同的吸引力和性形式呢？

What about different forms of attraction and sex?

同性恋呢？

What about homosexuality?

是的。

Yeah.

这其实非常有趣，因为在中世纪时期，他们没有我们这种身份认同的概念，因此也没有同性恋这个概念。

So this is a really interesting one because in the medieval period, they don't have a concept of homosexuality because they don't have a concept of identity in the way that we do.

他们不会说任何人有性取向。

They wouldn't say that anyone has a sexuality.

他们有的只是行为。

What they got is action.

所以你要么就是他们所说的鸡奸者，要么就不是。

So you either are what they call a sodomite or you are not.

现在，'鸡奸者'这个类别非常宽泛，因为从技术上讲，鸡奸指的是任何不会导致怀孕的性行为。

Now the category of sodomite is incredibly broad because sodomy technically means any type of sex that you can't get pregnant from.

好的。

Okay.

所以如果两个顺性别男性发生性关系，那肯定属于鸡奸，因为根本不可能怀孕。

So if you got two cis dudes who are having sex, that's definitely sodomy because nobody's getting knocked up.

是的。

Yeah.

对吧？

Right?

这根本不可能发生。

That's just not gonna happen.

两个女性之间也是同样的情况。

Same thing with two women.

对吧？

Right?

但严格来说，如果你是一个已婚女性并为丈夫口交，你就是个鸡奸者。

But technically, you are a sodomite if you are a married woman and you go down on your husband.

好的。

Okay.

因为那里不会怀孕。

Because no one's getting pregnant there.

所以这仍然是鸡奸。

So that is sodomy still.

现在我们通常用‘鸡奸’来特指某一种行为，尤其是指男同性恋。

Now we tend to use sodomy to mean one thing in particular and specifically to be talking about gay men.

但当时，他们只是指非生育性性行为者。

But at that time, they're just like non procreative sex haver.

对吧？

Right?

所以通奸是邪恶的。

So sodomy is bad.

根据托马斯·阿奎那的观点，通奸是邪恶的，因为它不合逻辑。

And sodomy is bad according to Thomas Aquinas because it's illogical.

对吧？

Right?

如果性行为的唯一合乎逻辑的理由是生育孩子，那么当你进行通奸时，你就无法实现这个目的。

If the only logical reason to have sex is to have children, then when you're doing sodomy, you can't be doing it.

因此，它是不合逻辑的，这意味着它违背了上帝的旨意。

And so it's illogical, and that means it's out of alignment with God.

对吧？

Right?

这能阻止人们这么做吗？

Does that stop people from doing it?

绝对不能。

Absolutely not.

你会惊讶地发现。

You'll you'll be shocked to learn.

你能相信吗？

You can you believe?

我的意思是，托马斯·阿奎那有很多事情需要解释。

I mean, Thomas Aquinas, he has a lot to answer for.

哦，这家伙。

Oh, this guy.

我的意思是，他一直在不停地思考这个问题。

I mean and he's thinking about it all the time too.

我的天，他整天都在琢磨自慰这种我们今天叫自渎的事情。

I mean, my my man is out here thinking about onanism, which is what we would call masturbation.

是的。

Yeah.

他还在琢磨修士做春梦算不算有罪。

He's out here thinking about whether or not it's sinful if monks have wet dreams.

其实不是这样的，让你知道一下。

It's not, just so you know.

你说得对。

Know you're right.

不，确实不是。

No, it's not.

确实不是。

It's not.

但关键是，我们对所谓的同性性行为了解很多，尤其是来自修士的记录，因为修士和修女们经常发生这类行为。

But the thing is that we know a lot about what we would call gay sex, specifically from monks, because monks and nuns are having a lot of it.

而且他们还会写下来。

And they write.

他们都很有文化。

They're all literate.

这就是当修士或修女的特点。

That's the thing about being a monk and a nun.

你的工作就是把事情写下来。

Your job is to write things down.

我们手头有大量彼此之间热烈的情书往来。

And we've got pretty hot love letters back and forth from people to each other.

修女们会被调往不同的修道院，然后就会思念不已。

Nuns will get moved to different monasteries and then they pine.

她们会说：我好想念我们以前那些火热的性生活。

And they're like, I miss all the hot sex we used to have.

每隔几年，就会有不同修道团体出台禁令，声称：我发誓，别再互相偷情了。

Every few years, there'll be a crackdown in varying monastic orders where they're like, I swear to god, stop shagging each other.

有一条针对修道院的特别规定特别有意思，里面说：不准称其他修女为‘我的小宝贝’。

There there's this really great ordinance for a a nunnery where they're like, you are not allowed to call other nuns, my little bird.

滚出去。

Get out.

而且，你们也不能睡在彼此的床上。

And, like, you can't sleep in each other's beds.

不。

No.

而且你必须穿着衣服。

And you have to be wearing clothes.

而且，我们知道这种情况一再发生。

And, you know, we see this over and over again happening.

所以这往往是那种我们并不清楚的事情。

And so this tends to be one of these things where we don't know.

比如，你只是在修道院或女修道院里，看不到外面的世界，然后你就想，他正在制造一场风暴，宝贝。

Like, is this kind of a, well, you're just in a monastery or a nunnery and you don't see the outside world and you're like, and he's putting a storm, baby.

还是说，你进入修道院或女修道院是因为你心里其实只想整天和同性待在一起？

Or do you end up in a monastery or a nunnery because you're like, you know, I'd really just love to spend all my time with members of the same sex.

我们无从得知，但我们确实知道，其中很多人确实在发生关系。

We don't have a way of knowing, but we do know that a lot of them absolutely are getting it on.

你听丹·斯诺的历史节目。

You listen to Dan Snow's history.

别走开。

Don't go anywhere.

还有更多内容即将推出。

There's more to come.

俗话说，如果这些墙壁会说话的话。

As the saying goes, if these walls could talk.

在《床笫之间》播客中，我们的使命是揭开紧闭门后发生的故事，更重要的是，探索历史上人们卧室里的秘密。

And on the Betwix the Sheets podcast, we make it our business to discover what happened behind closed doors, and even more importantly, in the bedrooms of people all throughout history.

国王、王后、情妇、仆人，以及所有中间阶层的人。

Kings, queens, mistresses, servants, and everyone in between.

我们还会近距离了解中世纪的春药、致命的化妆方式，并审视备受喜爱的儿童作家们放荡不羁的生活。

We also get up close and personal with medieval aphrodisiacs, lethal make up routines, and look at the scandalous lives of beloved children's authors.

没有任何话题是禁忌。

Nothing is off limits.

换句话说，这就是由我，凯特·利斯特博士，为你呈现的历史中最精彩的部分。

In other words, it's the best bits of history with me, doctor Kate Lister.

每周两次，随时随地收听《床笫之间》，探索性、丑闻与社会的历史。

Listen to betwixt the sheets, the history of sex scandal and society twice a week every week, wherever it is that you get your podcasts.

本节目由屡获殊荣的播客网络History Hit倾情呈现。

Brought to you by the award winning network, History Hit.

说到记录文字，我现在在想手稿上的插图、艺术和装饰之类的东西。

And speaking of writing things down, I'm thinking now about the illustrations on manuscripts and the art and the boards and things.

其中一些内容相当露骨，而这些却是由这些修道士们绘制的，有时如此。

Some of that gets quite raunchy, and that's being done by these monks and sometimes.

对吧？

Right?

是的。

So Yeah.

那么，这些阴茎之类的图像又是怎么和这些内容协调的呢？

So how is that squared with, like, phalluses and things like that?

这些图像为什么会出现在那里？

What's that doing there?

是的。

Yeah.

所以你经常会看到的一个重要艺术主题是，法国国家图书馆里有一些非常著名的相关图像。

So one of the really big art motifs that you will see all the time, and there's some really famous images of it in the Bibliothique Nationale de France.

他们有一本非常精美的《玫瑰传奇》，这其实是一个色情故事。

They have this really beautiful, Roman de la Rose, which is it's a smut story.

讲的是宫廷爱情。

It's courtly love.

非常精彩。

It's great.

但在页边空白处，他们画了修女们从树上摘下阴茎的图像。

But in the margins, they have these images of nuns picking phalluses off a tree.

而这个阴茎树有多重含义。

And the phallus tree is a couple of things.

其中一种我们认为是人们故意这样画，来表达‘生育其实没那么重要’的意思。

This is one where we do think that people kind of put it up as a way of saying, oh, you know, fertility isn't that great.

但这也是一种玩笑，暗示女性多么喜爱那个东西，如果可以的话她们会去采摘。

But it's also a joke about how much women just love that d, and they would harvest it if they could.

她们试图收获这些作物。

They're trying to bring in those crops.

甜美甜美的果实。

Sweet sweet fruit.

嗯嗯。

Uh-huh.

当然。

Absolutely.

你看到这些修女从树上摘下巨大的阴茎。

And you see these nuns just picking these huge dicks out of a tree.

然后我

And then I

我猜这是男人画的。

suspect that's drawn by men.

是的。

Yeah.

嗯，我们不知道。

Well, we don't know.

嗯，我们不知道。

Well, we don't know.

有可能。

Could have been.

有可能。

Could have been.

谁知道呢？

Could have Who knows?

谁知道呢？

Who knows?

然后，你知道的，最终其中一个修女去和一个僧侣发生了关系，接着她用一条系在他阴茎上的小绳子牵着他走。

And then, you know, eventually, one of the nuns goes on to shag a monk, and then she's leading him around by a little leash around his penis.

这很棒。

It's great.

所以这些事情确实正在发生。

And so these are things that are certainly happening.

你看，拉蒙多·拉罗斯，这很棒，但你知道，它属于宫廷爱情文学。

And look, the Ramondo La Rose, it's great, but it is, you know, courtly love literature.

它和现在的任何其他浪漫文学一样。

It is romance literature like anything else now.

所以你可以有一群观众，他们会说：‘哦，我想要一个插图非常精美的版本。’

And so you can have an audience who's going to be like, oh, I would like a very richly illustrated version of that, please.

但这并不是说，他们真的会说：‘请在《白鲸》的页边画些阴茎吧。’

But it's not exactly, you know, as though they're like, please draw some dicks in the margins of Moby Dick.

对吧？

Right?

像那样，根本不是一回事。

Like, that's not the same thing.

所以这有点像一个有趣的文本。

So it is kind of like a fun text.

而且，是的，它现在对我们来说是文学。

And, yes, it is literature for us now.

但这是一本关于性爱的书。

But, I mean, it's a book about shagging.

我要对你坦诚相告。

I'm gonna be so real with you.

所以，就像

So, like

如果这是一本关于性爱的书，那你当然可以有这类插图。

And so if it's a book about shagging, you're allowed to have those kind of illustrations so much.

是的。

Yeah.

有意思。

Interesting.

所以这暗示了那些对这件事比较放松的读者。

So that does imply readers who are relaxed about that Mhmm.

比我们的维多利亚时代祖先更放松。

More than our Victorian forebears.

哦，当然。

Oh, absolutely.

我完全同意，我认为中世纪的人对性比维多利亚时代的人开放得多。

I I 100%, I would say that medieval people are more relaxed about sex than Victorians are in any case.

是的。

Yeah.

我们或许可以谈谈生殖的科学。

We might, I guess, talk about the science of reproduction.

你提到过射精、月经周期和怀孕。

You've talked about the ejaculation, menstrual cycles, pregnancy.

当时人们对这些生理机制的理解有多广泛？

Did was there quite a wide understanding of how the the mechanics works?

是的。

Yeah.

他们对生理机制了解得相当不错。

They're pretty good on the mechanics.

不过，当然，他们还不清楚女性有卵子，因为那需要显微镜才能看到。

Although, you know, obviously, they are not clear yet on the fact that women have eggs, which you need microscopes for that.

所以这要花上很长一段时间。

So it's gonna take an a really long time.

但他们对人体内部发生的事情有相当清晰的认识。

But they're they're pretty clear on what is going on inside people's bodies.

与普遍看法相反，中世纪的人是可以解剖尸体的。

Contrary to popular opinion, medieval people could dissect cadavers.

但这并不常见。

It's not done very often.

人们担心会受到污染。

There is a worry about contigen.

他们担心，一旦剖开人体，瘴气就会逸出，导致所有人死亡。

They're worried that if you cut someone open, then miasma is going to come out and they'll kill everyone.

但比如在神圣罗马帝国，是否有法律规定医生必须定期解剖尸体进行学习呢？

But are there laws on the books, for example, in the Holy Roman Empire that all physicians need to be trained on cadavers every once in a while.

对吧？

Right?

所以他们了解人体内部的运作，并且拥有大量相关的插图示意图。

So they know what's going on in there and they've got lots of illustrated diagrams of this.

此外，这还带来了一些关于月经的有趣观点。

And with this, there are some interesting ideas, particularly around menstruation.

因此，这一观点依然基于体液学说。

So the idea again comes down to humoral theory.

当你刚出生时，普遍认为那是你一生中体温最高的时刻。

So when you're born as a baby, the idea is across the board, that's the hottest you're ever going to be.

对吧？

Right?

所以你出生时非常、非常、非常热，而且也很湿润。

So you're born very, very, very hot and quite wet also.

因此，年龄被视为一个逐渐变干、变冷的过程，直到你因年老而死，本质上就是你变得太冷太干，就这样结束了，对吧？

And so age is seen as a process of getting drier and colder over time until when you die of old age, it's essentially you become so cold and dry that like that's it, right?

所以这里的想法是，小女孩年幼时体温很高。

So the idea here is that when little girls are younger, they're quite hot.

因此她们能够燃烧掉任何有害的多余体液。

So they're able to burn off any excess humors that would be malign.

但当她们年纪大了，身体变冷后，就失去了这种能力。

But because they've become colder when they're older, they lose that ability.

而月经的作用就是排出那些你无法燃烧掉的有害体液。

And menses is there for your bad humors that you couldn't burn off, you're just going to have to expel them.

而怀孕可以阻止这一过程。

And then that can be put a stop to by getting people pregnant.

而且，这也可以说只是一种排泄物而已。

And also, it's kind of like, well, that's just sort of an effluvia.

对吧？

Right?

他们知道女性在经期时无法怀孕。

They know that you can't get pregnant while you're menstruating.

理论上可能，但非常困难。

Mean, can kind of, but it's very difficult.

但没错。

But right.

周期的基本概念。

Basic idea of cycles.

是的。

Yeah.

他们明白这一点。

They get that.

他们对更年期的理解是，当你变得过于寒冷时，就无法再排出经血了。

And their idea of menopause is that, well, now you become so cold that you can't even expel menses.

对。

Right.

于是就有了这样的担忧。

And so then there's this concern.

有些人担心年长女性可能会有毒，因为她们有经血淤积的情况。

There's a little bit of concern about older women that they might be poisonous because they have, like, backed up menses.

还有很多文献提到，不要直视年长女性的眼睛，因为她们就像蛇发女妖一样，会置你于死地。

And there's like a lot written about, like, don't meet the eyes of older women because they're kind of like basilisks and they can kill you.

所以这并不好，你知道吧？

So it's not great, you know?

是的，她们对性持比较宽松的看法，但我不是来告诉你这是个女性备受推崇的开明时代；她们确实希望女性怀孕，因为还有一种观念认为子宫就像小动物一样。

Yeah, they have pretty chilled out ideas about sex, but I'm not here to tell you this is some kind of like enlightened time where they're like, women are great, but they do kind of want to see women pregnant because there is also the idea that wombs are kind of like little animals.

这要追溯到盖伦的时代。

Now this is going back to Galen.

这要追溯到亚里士多德和柏拉图的时代。

This is going back to Aristotle and Plato.

任何希腊医生都会告诉你，确保女性不会患上癔症的最好方法就是让她们一直怀孕。

Any Greek physician would tell you this, And that the best way to make sure that women don't end up hysterical is to keep them pregnant.

哦，原来如此。

Oh, okay.

因为怀孕会把子宫固定在一个特定的位置，防止它移位到肝脏或大脑，让你发疯。

Because pregnancy pins your uterus in one specific place, and it keeps it from going onto your liver or onto your brain and making you all crazy.

明白了吗？

Alright?

所以。

So.

是的。

Yeah.

我知道。

I know.

我知道。

I know.

说到这些事情的科学，有没有什么春药？

Any aphrodisiacs speaking of the science of these things?

哦，是的。

Oh, yeah.

当然。

Absolutely.

所以，如果你查看任何草本植物图鉴，这些都很棒。

So if you look in any herbarium, which these are great.

这些是我最喜欢的中世纪书籍之一，草本植物图鉴，里面有着丰富的植物和花卉插图。

These are some of my favorite favorite medieval books, herbariums, where they have these lush illustrations of plants and flowers.

他们会说，好吧。

And they will say, okay.

这里有一些方法可以将这些植物用作春药。

Well, here's some ways that you can use these as aphrodisiacs.

而春药几乎是大多数植物最主要的用途。

And aphrodisiacs are kind of like the number one thing that most plants are for.

而且，人们普遍认为，任何特别甜美的花都具有催情作用。

And there is rather a lot of kind of like seeing any flower that is particularly sweet as an aphrodisiac.

所以玫瑰是催情剂，紫罗兰也是催情剂。

So a rose is an aphrodisiac and a violet is an aphrodisiac.

还有爱情咒语。

There are also love spells.

有趣的是，中世纪的人对魔法的看法比早期现代人要放松得多，后者会惊慌失措，到处看到女巫。

And interestingly, medieval people are a little bit chilled out about the idea of magic than early modern people are where they freak out and they see witches everywhere.

但在忏悔录中，有很多关于爱情咒语的讨论，这些忏悔录就像是给神父的指南手册。

But there's a lot of talking about love spells in penitentials, which are like guidebooks for priests.

所以，这是你在忏悔时应该问的问题。

So this is what you should ask during confession.

他们会说：‘姑娘，你是不是烤了面包，涂在自己赤裸的身体上，然后喂给一个男人，好让他爱上你？’

And they'll be like, girl, are you baking bread and rubbing it down your naked body to feed to a guy to make him fall in love with you?

这可是非常放荡的行为。

That's very naughty.

重要问题。

Important question.

别这么做。

Don't do that.

还有一个，哦，我有个糟糕的爱情咒语。

There's also oh, I've got a bad love spell.

根据八世纪早期的布夏尔·德·沃姆斯所述，女性会抓活鱼插入阴道，然后把鱼喂给男人，以让他们爱上自己。

According to Bouchard of Worms, who's writing to us in the early medieval period, so eighth century, women are taking live fishes and inserting them into their vaginas and then feeding them to men in order to make them love them.

现在，丹，我打赌这根本不会发生。

And now, Dan, I'm going to wager that isn't happening.

A，这根本不会发生，B，就算发生了也没用。

A, it isn't happening, and b, it wouldn't work.

我的意思是，这到底怎么回事？

I just I mean, like, what is going on with this?

这简直就是，你知道的，先生，就像面对敌对证人和维多利亚时代的人一样。

It's just it's very much, you know, sir, again, with hostile witnesses and with Victorians.

对吧？

Right?

你会遇到这些说法，简直让人疑惑：这到底是从哪儿冒出来的？

You will get these things and it's like, where did that come from?

就是一个从来没碰过女人的修士在那儿猜：我打赌她们真会把那条鱼塞进去。

And it's just some monk who's never had sex being like, I bet they're taking that fish.

然后你就想：好吧，老兄。

And you're like, okay, bro.

是的。

Yeah.

也许吧，哇哦。

Maybe like, wow.

冷静点。

Calm down.

好吧。

Okay.

稍微。

Slightly.

我只是狼吞虎咽。

I just woof.

所以理论上你可以做很多事，但教会也说，你不该这么做的一个原因是这些方法根本没用，你只是在自欺欺人，你需要成熟起来。

So there are all these things that in theory you can do, but also the church kind of says one of the reasons you shouldn't be doing it is it doesn't work, and you're kind of fooling yourself and you need to, like, grow up.

上帝不会允许这种事发生。

God wouldn't let that happen.

所以在某些方面，比如性行为本身、女性对性的享受、性的可获得性等方面，现代观念更开明。

So it's more enlightened in some ways in terms of the act of sex, in terms of women's enjoyment of sex, some of the availability of sex.

那我们怎么快速谈谈女性、财产和权力的性政治呢？

How do we then just quickly talk about the sexual politics of women, property, power?

这些是脱节的，还是与中世纪人们的性行为有关？

Is that kind of divorced, or is this connected with how medieval people were having sex?

女性是否被允许对自己的生活和决定拥有自主权，诸如此类的事情？

Like, are women allowed to have agency over their lives and their decisions, things like that?

所以事情在这里可能会变得有点奇怪，因为当我们听到‘女性在性行为中达到高潮才能怀孕’时，这自然引出一个令人沮丧的推论。

So this is where things can get kind of weird because, you know, when we hear, oh, women should orgasm during sex in order for them to get pregnant, This has a kind of corollary that's a real downer.

例如，在强奸案中，如果女性因此怀孕，大家都会说：‘哦。’

So for example, in cases of rape, if a woman then ends up pregnant as a result of it, everyone goes, oh.

所以她其实很享受？

So she really enjoyed it?

是的。

Yeah.

她确实很享受。

She actually enjoyed it.

她其实想要这件事。

Actually, she wanted it.

对吧？

Right?

好吧。

Okay.

还有一个关于‘raptus’的情况，这很难理清。

There's also the case of with raptus, which is a difficult one to work out.

拉丁语中是‘raptus’，但我们并不总是清楚它在特定时候的确切含义。

The Latin term is raptus, and we don't necessarily know what that means at any given time.

它可能指我们所认为的强迫性性行为或暴力性行为，也可能只是你和男朋友私奔并亲热。

It could be thinking about what we think of as, like, coercive sex or violent sex, And it could be you ran off with your boyfriend and were making out.

好的。

Okay.

而你并没有得到你父亲的许可。

And you didn't have your father's permission.

对吧？

Right?

因为女性在很大程度上被视为男性财产。

Because women are very much the property of the men in their lives.

因此，当发生‘raptus’时，人们更多地将其视为对拥有她的那个男人的冒犯，而不是对女性本身的伤害。

And so when raptus occurs, it is envisioned much less as an offense against the woman and much more as an offense against whatever man owns her.

所以，例如在强奸案中，很多时候惩罚是要求男方娶这名女子。

So for example, in cases of raptus, a lot of the time the punishment is the man needs to marry the woman.

如果你只是违背父亲的意愿和男友私奔，那倒还算不错。

Now that's kind of fine if you were off shagging your boyfriend against your dad's will, that's great.

你会觉得：成功，目标达成了。

And you're like, success, outcome achieved.

但如果这是暴力行为，那这就变成了一件极其可怕的事情。

But if this is something violent, then that's really kind of a horrible thing that happens.

我们还看到，在这方面也有比较积极的一面，人们非常关注寡妇的处境。

And we also see kind of more on the bright side of this, a lot of worry about women who are widows.

例如，如果你非常富有，你的丈夫曾是行会成员，那么你通常也会成为行会成员，因为你能做同样的工作。

So for example, if you are really wealthy, say your husband had been a member of a guild, you're also in the guild now, usually because you can do the same work.

你的丈夫去世后，行会资格通常会转到你名下。

Your husband dies, then that usually means the guild membership transfers on to you.

你手头有一大笔钱。

You've got a bunch of money.

你并不担心那些事。

You're not worried about whatever.

这些寡妇开始频繁地约会，大家都说：‘哦。

These women start shagging around rather a lot, and everyone's like, oh.

是的。

Oh, yeah.

富有的寡妇。

The rich widows.

嗯。

Mhmm.

已婚的寡妇。

The married widows.

她们已经掌握了中世纪的世界。

They've hacked the medieval world.

对吧？

Right?

嗯。

Mhmm.

当然。

Absolutely.

所以她们就是那种想做什么就做什么的人。

And so they're the ones who are just kind of doing whatever it is they want to do.

很多人对如何处理她们感到焦虑，但其实你根本无能为力，只能像那样摇手指警告一下。

There's And a lot of hand wringing about what you do about them because there isn't really anything that you can do about them except, like, wag your finger.

她们已经付出了代价。

They paid their dues.

她们结了婚。

They got married.

她们完全做了你应该做的事。

They did exactly what you're supposed to do.

没错。

Exactly.

很多时候，你其实不应该再婚。

And a lot of the time, you're sort of not supposed to get married again.

然后，同样地，你知道，这就形成了对比。

Then And again, you know, so there's the foil.

我的意思是，她只是乔叟《坎特伯雷故事集》中的一个角色，但浴女以著名的姿态表示：我不断结婚，因为每次丈夫去世，我都想要另一个，因为我喜欢性爱。

I mean, she's just a character in, Chaucer's Canterbury Tales, but the wife of Bath, very famously, is like, I just keep getting married because every time a husband dies, I want another one because I love to shag.

而且，我还很会理财。

And, also, I'm very good with money.

是的。

Yeah.

所以这些都是我的商业并购，这让我们清楚地看到，人们对富有且充分意识到自身性魅力的女性的担忧是什么。

And so these are all business acquisitions that I'm having, and that tells us a lot about what the worry is about women who are wealthy and quite aware of their own sexuality are.

但另一方面，她也被描绘得相当可爱，最终人们都喜欢她。

But on the other hand too, she's kind of, like, played as quite sweet and people like her in the end.

而且，从技术上讲，她本不该这样行事，但我们所有人都喜欢浴女，不是吗

And, yeah, technically, she's not supposed to be acting that way, but we all love the wife of Bath, don't

我们？

we?

是的。

Yeah.

你一定要听丹·斯诺的历史冲击，最好的还在后面。

You listen to Dan Snow's history hit, the best is yet to come.

继续关注我们。

Stick with us.

是什么引发了内战？

What started the civil war?

越南战争是如何结束的？

What ended the conflict in Vietnam?

保罗·里维尔是谁？

Who was Paul Revere?

维京人曾经到达过美洲吗？

And did the Vikings ever reach America?

我是唐·威尔曼，在《美国历史热点》节目中，我和我的专家嘉宾们将穿越全国、跨越岁月，探寻塑造美国的故事。

I'm Don Wildman, and on American History Hit, my expert guests and I are journeying across the nation and through the years to uncover the stories that have made America.

我们将造访塑造国家的战场和辩论厅，结识那些以自身影响改变国家的人物，并追踪那些改变法律与领导方向的投票。

We'll visit the battlefields and debate floors where the nation was formed, meet the characters who have altered it with their touch, and count the votes that have changed the direction of our laws and leadership.

每周两次，无论你在何处收听播客，都能找到《美国历史热点》。

Find American History Hit twice a week, every week, wherever you get your podcasts.

《美国历史热点》，由History Hit出品的播客。

American History Hit, a podcast from History Hit.

在军事方面，当我研究中世纪的女性时，显然她们是丈夫的财产，这是一个厌女的社会，她们无法自主决定婚姻，但你却经常发现女性在围城战中担任指挥官，对吧？

And because on the military side of things, when I come across women in the medieval world, clearly, you know, they're the property of their husbands, that it's a misogynistic society, they can't all pair on their own right, and yet you often find women leading forces during sieges, right?

埃莉诺·阿科坦，你和我都是她的忠实粉丝。

Eleanor Accotane, you and I are big fans of.

我们有那位在1217年负责林肯城的了不起的女性，嗯。

We've got that wonderful woman who's in charge at Lincoln in 12/17 Mhmm.

德·拉海。

De La Hay.

女性和公主们常常在丈夫外出时管理庄园。

And women and princesses, they end up, well, running estates for husbands who are away.

她们最终会参与战斗。

They end up fighting.

这是一件很有趣的事。

So that's an interesting thing.

是的。

Yeah.

人们确实认为女性能够胜任这些事情。

It is very much seen that women can do these things.

因此，女性经常随军出征。

So women end up on campaign all the time.

我们有一个模糊的术语叫‘随军妇人’。

You know, we have this kind of amorphous term of camp followers.

对吧？

Right?

而这通常就是你的妻子。

And that's usually like your wife.

对吧？

Right?

因为如果你被派到某个地方去，那谁来负责做饭呢？

Because if you're getting sent off somewhere, it's like, well, who's doing all the cooking

在这里？

around here?

这些都不是正规军队。

These are not professional armies.

没有专门的厨师。

There are no cooks.

也没有人负责洗碗。

There's no one to do the washing up.

所以女性就会随之而来。

So women sort of come along with that.

很多时候，这意味着她们也在从事军事相关的工作，但我们只是不太谈论这一点。

And a lot of the time, that means that they also are doing military things, but we just kind of don't talk about it.

而且正如你所说，比如帕桑信件，也就是重要的英国帕斯顿家族，我们有大量他们与不同人往来的信件。

And certainly, as you say, you know, the Passan letters, so the very important English family, the Pastons, we have all these letters back and forth to different people.

我们看到女性写信说，需要这么多长柄斧。

And we have the women saying, need this many pole axes.

我需要这么多箭。

I need this many arrows.

我需要这么多十字弓箭矢，因为我们正试图加固这里的防御。

I need this many crossbow bolts because we're trying to shore things up around here.

这些女性非常受信任，负责管理庄园、参与围城、介入军队事务。

So these are women who are very much trusted to run estates, to lay siege, to be involved in armies.

但人们对军队中的随军妇人也有些担忧。

But there's also a little bit of a worry about camp followers with armies.

比如，圣女贞德——我们两人都非常欣赏的人物——她在百年战争期间将法国军队中大批随军妇人驱逐出去，因为有时这些随军妇人其实就是普通的性工作者。

So for example, Joan of Arc, another person that we're both big fans of, she ends up running off a bunch of camp followers from the French armies during the Hundred Years' War because sometimes camp followers are just good old fashioned sex workers.

对。

Right.

因为这些女孩一看就知道你是个有钱人。

Because these girls know a deal when they see you.

而且，你知道，这儿有不少男人，他们也不都结婚了。

And, you know, and there's rather a lot of dudes around here, and they're not all married.

或者他们的妻子没在身边，所以他们知道怎么赚钱。

Or their wife isn't with them, so they know how to make some money.

还有一些非常有趣的插图描绘了圣女贞德说：‘滚开，姑娘们！’，而那些穿着得体的姑娘们则说：‘哦’，然后跑开了，我觉得这太有意思了。

And there's some hilarious illustrations of Joan of Arc being like, get out of here, girls, and these very nicely dressed girls being like, oh, and running off, which I find very amazing.

什么

What

真扫兴。

a killjoy.

我知道。

I know.

我心想：‘唉，琼安。’

I'm like, boo, Joan.

好吧。

Okay.

所以，有商人、手工艺人和贵族的遗孀。

So there are widows of of merchants and crafts, artisans, of nobles.

她们可以以自己的方式行使权力。

They could exercise power in their own way.

因此，中世纪的世界并非像我们可能以为的那样，完全是男性主导，女性只是躲在财产背后，毫无参与。

So the the medieval world was not we might think it just sort of male dominated women just hidden inside property not playing any part.

哦，是的。

Oh, yeah.

当然。

Absolutely.

事实上，我认为中世纪女性在社会中扮演着极其重要的角色，而这些角色在维多利亚时代或近代早期却逐渐消失——那时我们才开始看到女性从公共领域退回到家庭领域。

And in fact, I would say that medieval women play huge roles in society in ways that women don't, again, you know, in the Victorian period or in the early modern period, that's when we start to see the kind of retreat of women from public and into the domestic sphere.

所以在中世纪，是的，我们并不总是能了解到女性的活动，但这是因为女性无处不在，以至于人们都觉得没必要特意记录下来。

So in the medieval world, yeah, we're not always going to necessarily know about women, but it's because it's so common for women to be everywhere that everyone doesn't bother to write it down.

就好像他们默认你知道有女性随军出征一样。

It's like they assume you know that there's a woman on campaign with this army.

所以，谈论这个有什么意义呢？

So like, what would be the point of talking about it?

互联网上到处都是把坏事归咎于早期现代时期的言论。

There's no there's a whole the Internet was out there with the spread bet on when you blame bad things on the early modern period.

我想我们刚才就是这么做的。

I think we just did it.

我觉得我们确实这么做了。

I think we did it.

大家来告诉我们吧。

Let us know, everybody.

好的。

Okay.

哇。

Wow.

大家告诉我们，奖金是多少。

Let let us know, everyone, what the winnings are.

好的。

Okay.

那么关于性少数群体呢？

So and what about queerness?

你之前提到过鸡奸。

Like, you talked about sodomy.

嗯。

Mhmm.

那就是人们发生性关系，但不是为了繁衍。

So that's just people having sex, not for procreation.

人们会谈论像我们现在所说的跨性别者或同性恋吗？

Are people talked about, as we might now call trans or is, like, gay?

比如，这是人们会谈论的话题吗？

Like, is that something that's talked about?

是的，确实如此。

Well, yeah.

所以我们知道，在伦敦这里有一个非常著名的案例，我们现在会称之为跨性别女性。

So we know there's a very famous case of what we would now sort of call a trans woman from here in London.

她的名字叫埃莉诺·赖希纳。

Her name is Eleanor Reichner.

而我们之所以了解到埃莉诺，是因为她在错误的地方从事性工作。

And Eleanor, we find out about because she's doing sex work in the wrong place.

她在伦敦塔附近从事性工作。

So she's doing sex work kind of over by the Tower Of London.

但那并不是官方批准的红灯区。

And that is not one of the approved red light areas.

你应该在南华克区，或者在科克巷，或者在格罗普坎特巷。

You're supposed to be in Southwark or over on Cock Lane or on Grope Cunt Lane.

你知道的，看看就行。

You know, just look.

这确实是真的，但那些都是真实的

That's which is true, but those are actual

真实、确实、真实的名字。

true actual true names.

Cock Lane 现在还存在。

Cock Lane's still there.

是的。

Yeah.

所以这挺有趣的。

So that's fun.

它出现在《法斯塔夫》里，挺可爱的。

It's in Falstaff, which is cute.

是的。

Yeah.

但埃莉诺被发现在不恰当的地方与一个男人有染，因此被带上法庭。

But Eleanor gets found shagging a dude in the wrong place, and she gets brought before the court.

法庭上的人说：‘姑娘，这到底是怎么回事？’

And the court's like, girl, what's all this?

你知道的吧？

You know?

她就说：‘好吧，我来告诉你真相。’

And she's like, well, here's the tea.

我在牛津的一家旅馆里完成了性别过渡，那里全是跨性别女孩。

I transitioned at this inn in Oxford full of trans girls.

是她们教我如何穿衣打扮，这就是我生活的方式，也是我们让自己变得更加女性化的方法。

And, you know, they're the ones who taught me how to dress, and this is how I live my life, and these are the ways that we make ourselves become more feminine.

她讲述了那个故事，她说那

She tells the story that she And that's

全部都记录在法庭记录中。

all in the court proceedings.

哦

Oh,

是的

yeah.

对

Yeah.

真是个宝库啊

What a treasure trove.

这是一份极其珍贵的文件。

And it's absolutely amazing document.

从这份文件中我们可以看到，她就是我们现在所说的双性恋或泛性恋——她和女性发生关系，和男性发生关系，为了钱发生关系，也为了乐趣发生关系。

And what we can see from it is that she's what we would now call like bi or pan where like she shags women, she shags men, she shags for money, she shags for fun.

她虽然从事的是技术上更女性化的工作，比如刺绣，但私下也会四处逢场作戏，偶尔偷点小东西。

She does technically, well, more feminine jobs like embroidery, but she also kind of shags around on the side or does some light theft here and there.

你知道的，为了活下去，什么都干。

You know, anything to kind of get by.