安迪·诺 | 布雷特·韦恩斯坦的暗马播客第1期

嘿，大家好。

Hey, folks.

我是布雷特。

Bret here.

欢迎收听布雷特·韦因斯坦的《黑马播客》第一期正式节目。

Welcome to the first official episode of Bret Weinstein's DarkHorse Podcast.

我正和安迪·吴坐在一起，他是《奎利特》杂志的副编辑，自2016年以来一直记录波特兰街头的抗议活动。

I am sitting with Andy Ngo, who is a sub editor at Quillette Magazine, who has been documenting protests in the streets of Portland since 2016.

安迪在过去两天里因一次袭击事件而广为人知，当时他正在波特兰街头报道反法西斯主义者的活动。

Andy became extraordinarily well known in the last two days as a result of an attack that took place on the streets of Portland as he was reporting on Antifa.

安迪，欢迎来到我们的播客。

Andy, welcome to the podcast.

谢谢您邀请我参加。

Thank you for having me on.

过去几天你经历了一段非凡的历程。

So you've had quite an extraordinary run over the last several days.

你能大致告诉我们发生了什么吗？

Do you want to tell us roughly what happened?

是的，可能不是每天都有播客嘉宾带着我这样的伤脸来做客。

Yeah, it's probably not every day that a podcast guest comes in with a beat up face like mine.

事情发生在6月29日，我当时正在记录波特兰由安提法组织的一场示威活动。

What happened was on the June 29, I was documenting a demonstration organized by Antifa in Portland.

波特兰——对于可能不了解的听众来说——是一个进步主义的单一文化城市，那里有一个庞大的激进群体，自称反法西斯主义者，并以这个名义组织活动。

Portland, for your listeners who may not be aware, is a progressive monoculture, and it has a very large movement of far less radicals who call themselves antifascists, and they organize under that name.

他们当时在那里反对右翼团体。

And they were there to oppose right wing groups.

于是我带着我的GoPro摄像机来到波特兰县法院大楼附近，这是波特兰法治体系中最重要的机构之一，因为那里设有法院、 sheriff 办公室和中央警察局。

So I came with my GoPro and steps away from the Multnomah County Justice Center, one of the most important institutions of the rule of law in Portland because it houses courthouses, the sheriff's office, the central police precinct.

当他们游行并高喊‘没有仇恨，没有恐惧’时，我突然被狠狠地击中了后脑勺。

When they were marching there chanting, No hate, no fear, the next thing that happened to me was I got hit in the back of the head really hard.

我本人是个非常温和的人。

And I'm an extremely passive person.

我从来没打过架，所以直到现在，我还不知道拳头打在身上是什么感觉。

I've never been in a fight, so I don't even, until now, didn't know what a punch felt like.

所以过了几秒钟我才反应过来发生了什么。

So it took a few seconds for me to register what had happened.

我被击得向前倒去。

I was knocked forward.

等我意识到并勉强站稳时，拳打脚踢还在不断袭来，而且来自四面八方，我以为结束了，其实还没有。

By the time I realized it and kind of regained my balance, the punches and hits just kept coming, and from every direction, and when I thought it was over, it wasn't.

我们先退一步说，我和你是朋友，我也是你的推特粉丝，你当时非常担心自己在抗议活动中会遭遇什么，我们还讨论过我是否该跟你一起去。

So let's back up a You little and I are friends, and I'm also a Twitter follower of yours, and you were quite concerned about what would happen to you at this protest, and you and I talked about whether I might join you.

但最终，我没有跟你一起去。

Ultimately, I did not join you.

我本人挺容易被认出来的，而Antifa并不喜欢我，我怀疑如果我当时在场，只会再多一个受害者。

I am pretty recognizable, and the Antifa is not a fan of me, and I suspect had I been there, it would have just created a second victim.

但即便如此，你知道这些人有可能施暴，你还是去了。

But nonetheless, you knew that these folks had the potential for violence, and you went anyway.

你为什么要去？

Why did you go?

你说得对，我确实一直被左翼激进分子针对，尤其是自5月1日劳动节以来，那时我被喷了胡椒喷雾，肚子还挨了一拳。

You're right that I've been targeted quite relentlessly by Antifa, particularly since the May 1, May Day, that was when I was maced and punched in the stomach.

接着我的家庭住址被曝光，发布到了网上。

And then doxxed, they released my family's address online.

几天后，我在健身房又遭到了袭击。

And then a few days after that, attacked when I was at the gym.

所有这些事件都向警方报过案，但几乎没有采取任何行动。

All of these incidents were reported to police and not much action had been done.

我们提供了嫌疑人的姓名，但两个月前至今没有一人被逮捕。

Names of suspects provided, but no arrests made more than two months ago.

所以我清楚自己即将进入一个充满敌意的环境，也知道之前的袭击是为了恐吓我，让我不再记录他们的行为。

So I knew what that I was going into a hostile environment, and I knew that the attacks on me before were meant to intimidate me into not documenting them anymore.

我认为这是一个关键点：这些袭击的目的就是确保没人能记录下正在发生的事。

I think that's a key point, is that the purpose of the attacks is to ensure that nobody documents what is taking place.

换句话说，你有一群人，也就是安提法，他们穿着黑色衣服。

In other words, you have people, the Antifa, who dress in black.

我认为他们可能会说这是为了自我保护，但这显然是为了匿名化自己，以便实施犯罪并逃避惩罚。

I think they would probably say that they do it for self protection, but it's clearly a mechanism to anonymize themselves so that they can commit crimes and get away with it.

所以你有一群人聚集在一起，穿着适合犯罪的服装，却不希望被记录下来。

So you have a group of people who are massing, dressed for criminal activity, and they don't want it documented.

因此，我想从你这里了解的是，当你决定——我的意思是，视频里很清楚，你不仅去了抗议现场，还直接走进了安提法的人群中——那时你的想法是什么？

And so I guess what I'd like to find out from you is what was your mindset at the point that you decided to I mean, it's quite clear in the video that you walked not only did you go to the protest, but you walked right into the Antifa ranks.

现在回头看，我感觉自己很天真，但我当时想，如果这些人真的了解我是谁，他们就不会相信他们最虔诚的意识形态追随者们对我所散布的那些话。

Looking back now, feel naive, but I was thinking that if these people really knew who I was, they wouldn't believe all the things that some of their most devout ideologues were saying about me.

比如，称我为白人至上主义者、极右翼、纳粹的宣传者。

For example, calling me a white supremacist, far right, a propagandist for Nazis.

实际上，在去活动现场的那天早上，由于局势不断升级，我戴上了头盔。

Actually, that morning before I went to the event, I put on a helmet because of the escalating tensions that have been happening.

我离开前在镜子里瞥见了自己，于是决定把头盔摘下来，留在家里。

And I caught a glimpse of myself in the mirror before I left, and I decided to take the helmet off and leave it at home.

我告诉自己，我不想让人觉得我准备好了要打架，或者我是个敌对的人。

I told myself, I don't want to give anybody even the possible perception that I came ready to fight or that I'm a hostile person.

这是一个错误。

That was a mistake.

他们在袭击中攻击了我的头部、脸部和眼睛。

They went for my head and face and eyes in the attack.

戴着有攻击性的手套？

With weaponized gloves?

是的。

Yes.

据我所见，在他们用所谓的奶昔和鸡蛋使我失明之前。

From what I could see, before I was blinded by what they say were milkshakes and eggs.

打我的那些人戴着指节处有玻璃纤维材料的手套，所以更加坚硬。

The people punching me were wearing gloves that have fiberglass material on the knuckles, so they're much harder.

我认为这很可能就是造成我割伤和擦伤的原因。

I believe that's probably what caused the the cuts and abrasions.

当拳头从四面八方打来时，我一直在想，我记得俄勒冈州的法院，还有莫诺马县法院大楼。

When the punches started happening all around me, I kept thinking, you know, I could see the Oregon justice, the Monoma County Justice Center.

我在想，好吧，警察随时都会冲进来把我救走。

I was thinking, okay, at any moment, the police are going to come in and swoop me out.

但并没有发生。

But it didn't happen.

接下来发生的事是，他们把我打得非常严重，以至于我失去了对我的GoPro的控制，那是个全新的设备，我本来非常期待第一次使用它。

What ended up happening next was they beat me so badly that I lost control of my GoPro, which was brand new, and that was the one thing I was looking forward to a lot was using it for the first time.

一个戴面具的人抢走了它，然后跑掉了。

A masked person grabbed it away from me and ran off.

然后我想，好吧，他们拿到了它。

And then I thought, okay, they have that.

他们得到他们想要的东西了吗？

Do they have what they want?

现在他们会放过我了吧。

They're gonna leave me alone now.

我举起手臂挡住脸，避免再挨打，同时也向他们示意我投降了。

I put up my arms to block my face from any more hits and to also signal to them that this is a surrender.

但他们却把这当成更猛烈攻击的信号。

They took that as a sign to go in harder.

于是更多拳头和脚踢接踵而至，还有一阵液体喷洒过来，让我双眼失明，皮肤刺痛，他们把各种东西喷得我满身都是。

So then came more punches, more kicks, and a hail of liquids that blinded me, really stung my skin, and they sprayed stuff all over me.

所以当你在网上传播的视频里看到我走开时，我只是希望我走的方向是远离他们，因为我其实根本不知道自己要去哪里。

And so when I was walking away, that you may have seen in the viral video now, I was just hoping that I was walking in a direction away from them because I actually didn't know where I was going.

我一直在不停地走，心里想着：随时都会有警察冲出来帮我，但什么都没发生。

And I was like, I just kept walking and walking, and I said, At any minute now, the police are going to run-in and help me, and it never happened.

我一路走到公园对面的法院门口，失去平衡，跌坐在地上。

I made it all the way across the park to the front of the courthouse, and I lost my balance, and I sat on the ground.

一群特警医护人员向我走来。

And a SWAT team of medics approached me.

我告诉他们我需要帮助。

I let them know that I needed help.

他们说，为了能上救护车并被送往医院，我必须走回警察局，所以我不得不回到刚才被人群袭击的方向。

They said in order to get to the ambulance and be taken to I needed to walk back to the police precinct, so I had to go back in the direction of where I was just attacked by this crowd.

警察就在那里。

So the police were there.

他们就在附近。

They were nearby.

他们就在附近。

They were nearby.

但他们没有采取行动。

And they did not act.

他们没有采取行动。

They did not act.

我觉得这里有几件事需要提出来。

So there are a couple things that I think need to be interjected here.

是的。

Yeah.

你说他们打了你。

You say they punched you.

我认为必须向观众讲清楚这一点。

I think it has to be made clear to the audience.

他们是偷袭打你的。

They sucker punched you.

是的。

Yeah.

毫无疑问，你不会还手。

There was no question that you were not going to hit back.

那样做会疯掉的，而且这也不是你的性格，他们很清楚这一点。

It would have been insane to do so, and it isn't your nature, and they well know that.

他们戴着面具偷袭你，以便逃脱罪责。

They sucker punched you wearing disguises to get away with it.

他们戴的是带有武器的手套，所以用‘拳打’这个词根本不足以描述你所经历的一切。

They used weaponized gloves, so even a punch doesn't capture what happened to you.

你脸上的伤痕证实了这一点，但这是一群懦夫对一个他们明知不会还手的人发动的袭击。

The injuries on your face do, but this was an attack by cowards of somebody who they knew would not fight back.

我必须说，我觉得这简直令人发指。

And I must say I find that absolutely despicable.

我还想谈谈你当时在场这件事，因为当我听说你受伤了，又知道你曾担心这种情况可能发生时，我不由得将它与克里斯托弗·希钦斯自愿接受水刑以确认其是否属于酷刑联系起来。

And I think that something also needs to be said with respect to your presence there, which is I feel you know, when I heard that you had been injured and I knew that you had worried that it might happen, I sort of I couldn't help but draw a connection with Christopher Hitchens having elected to be waterboarded in order to discover if it was torture.

当然，这并不是一个完美的类比，但话说回来，谁愿意被水刑折磨呢？

You know, it's not a perfect analogy, but in a sense, who wants to be waterboarded, right?

但总得有人亲身经历，才能有资格权威地谈论它究竟是什么。

But somebody has to in order to be able to speak with authority about what it is.

谁愿意被安提法袭击呢？

Who wants to be attacked by the Antifa?

没人愿意。

Nobody.

但既然他们想假装自己是在对抗法西斯，那就必须有人去记录他们的暴行，而你因此身处危险，正是问题的关键所在。

But to the extent that they wanna pretend that what they are doing is fighting fascists, somebody has to document their fight and the fact that that puts you in danger is the point.

你怎么可能在有警察在场的情况下，带着相机去参加抗议活动却遭到袭击？

How is it possible that somebody like you going into a protest with a camera is attacked with police nearby and they don't intervene.

这说明整个系统出了严重问题，尤其是在波特兰，问题尤为突出。

That tells you something is very wrong with the system, and it is wrong in particular here in Portland.

我认为原因很大程度上与市长有关。

And I think the reason has a lot to do with the mayor.

这位市长恰好还兼任警察局长。

The mayor who also in this case happens to be the police commissioner.

我不得不指出，你在这里遭遇的事情和我在埃弗格林学院的经历之间存在关联。

And I can't help but point out the connection between what happened here to you and what happened at Evergreen to me.

埃弗格林学院的校长有权命令警察不要干预犯罪行为，因为校园警察拥有管辖权，而他恰好是他们的上司。

The president of Evergreen College happens to be in a position to tell the police not to intervene in criminal activity because the campus police are the ones with jurisdiction, and he happens to be their boss.

在波特兰，市长同时兼任警察局长，而上周末发生的事情清楚地表明：不能让一位需要连任的市长来决定警察是否执法，因为这样的市长为了迎合特定选民群体，最终会将人们置于危险之中。

It happens to be the case in Portland that the mayor is also the police commissioner, and if there's one lesson that is absolutely clear from what happened over the weekend, it's that you can't have a mayor who has to face reelection in charge of deciding whether or not the police enforce the law because what will happen is that a mayor pandering to a particular constituency will end up putting people in danger.

我知道我家人在这里，而我一想到市长会对某些人犯罪视而不见，却对其他人执法，就感到生活在波特兰充满危险。

I know that I have a family here and I feel in danger living in Portland knowing that the mayor will not enforce the law if certain people are committing crimes, but not others.

我认为这种情况无论如何都必须结束了。

And I think somehow this just has to has to end.

警察必须执行法律。

The police have to enforce the law.

安提法明确表示他们根本不尊重法律。

Antifa are very clear that they have no respect for it.

他们公然高喊‘所有警察都是混蛋’，然后又去犯罪。

They chant all cops are bastards right out in the open, and then they commit crimes.

这必须得到解决。

It needs to be addressed.

警方和当局本有充足的时间为周六做好充分准备，因为安提法早已公开宣布他们打算进行身体对抗。

The police and authorities had ample opportunity to prepare properly for Saturday because Antifa had broadcasted their intent to quote unquote physically confront.

考虑到该组织长期具有武装暴力的历史，我不明白为什么当局的回应方式却是放任公民被肆意袭击。

And with the group's long history of militant violence, I don't understand why responding the same way, which is basically just to let citizens be assaulted with impunity.

我的意思是，今天在你面前，我说话稍微慢了一些。

I mean, being in front of you today, I'm speaking a little bit slower.

从那天我头部的伤势来看，医院的CT扫描确认我有脑出血。

I from those injuries that day to my head, the CT scan at the hospital confirmed that I have a brain hemorrhage.

我以前从未受过脑部损伤，现在越说越意识到，有些轻微的缺陷我在医院躺着时根本没注意到。

And I've never had a brain injury, and it's only now, the more that I'm speaking, that I'm realizing, Oh, there's certain minor deficiencies that I didn't realize while just laying in the hospital bed.

对吧？

Right?

所以你确实因为脑部损伤出现了某种神经功能缺损。

So you're actually feeling some sort of neurological deficit from brain injury.

是的，听起来好像挺严重的。

I do, and it sounds It makes it sound like so serious.

当时我知道自己连续几天都在出血，但正如我所说，我从未打过架。

And at the time, I know that I was bleeding in days and all that, but like I said, I'd never been in a fight.

所以我以为情况可能没那么糟。

So I thought maybe it wasn't as bad as what happened.

我看了这段视频，至少有十几个人在踢我、打我、往我身上扔东西，然后我才意识到，原来情况这么严重。

And I watched this video, and there's at least a dozen people just kicking, hitting, throwing stuff at me, and then I see, Oh, it was that bad.

不，事情真的有那么严重。

No, it was absolutely that bad.

我的意思是，你不仅被送进了医院，我还去医院探望过你。

I mean, you were not only admitted to the hospital, but I visited you in the hospital.

我亲耳听到医生下令，必须每小时叫醒你一次，以防你陷入昏迷。

I heard them give the orders that you had to be awakened every hour to make sure you didn't fall into a coma.

这可是严重的事。

This serious stuff.

你遭受了严重的头部创伤，而施暴者只是在扮演一种荒谬的妄想——认为法西斯无处不在，而你就是其中之一，这简直无法想象。

You received a serious head injury at the hands of people who are role playing some kind of bizarre delusion that fascists are everywhere, that you are one, and it just can't be.

当我去医院时，我甚至不确定他们会不会让我进去。

And I must say, when I went to the hospital, I was expecting I wasn't even sure they were gonna let me in.

我本以为媒体会蜂拥而至，但当我到达时，惊讶地发现你还在走廊里。

Was expecting the press to be descending on you in some form, and when I got there, I was surprised that you were in the hallway, right?

你还没被安排进病房。

You hadn't gotten a room yet.

意思是，确实他们要求你留下名字才能来探望你，但我说得对吧，到目前为止媒体基本上还没有报道这个事件？

Mean, it was true that they required you to leave your name to go visit you, but am I right that the press has largely so far not covered the story?

很遗憾，有些报道反而聚焦在右翼如何抓住这个事件并利用它为自己的目的服务，而不是关注不仅是我遭遇了什么，还有自2016年选举结果公布以来，这座城市中不断升级的政治暴力这一更广泛的背景。

It's unfortunate that some stories have then focused on how the right pounced on this and took advantage of this story for their own cause rather than focusing on not just what happened to me, but the the larger context of political violence that have been escalating in the city ever since the two thousand sixteen election results were announced.

因此，这件事有很多值得我们学习的地方。

So there's a lot to be learned from this.

我认为，你所经历的事情和我在埃弗格林所经历的事情之间，相似之处太多，无法忽视。

I think the parallels between what happened to you and what happened to me at Evergreen are too many to ignore.

确实，右翼确实利用了这个事件，我不会说他们是扑向这个故事，但这个事件的确契合了右翼一直提出的某种指控。

And there is a way in which I know that the right did, I wouldn't say pounce on the story, but there's a way in which this story matches an accusation that the right has been leveling.

但当我自己成为他们目标的时候，发生的事情完全一样，而我并不属于右翼。

But that was exactly the same thing that happened when it was me in their sights, and I'm not on the right.

所以我认为这本质上是一个非党派的问题。

So I see this as very much a nonpartisan issue.

你看到一些自称属于左翼的人表现得非常不宽容，甚至暴力，他们对社会正在发生的事情持有片面且妄想的看法。

You have people who say that they are on the left behaving very illiberally, behaving violently, and responding to an unnuanced and delusional view of what's taking place in society.

而本应发挥作用以防止此类事件发生的机制，却因政治原因未能正常运作。

And the things that are supposed to kick in and prevent it from happening are not functioning for political reasons.

那么，你认为接下来应该采取什么措施，才能避免这种情况再次发生在别人身上？

So you have a sense of what should happen next so that this doesn't happen to somebody else?

当地当局在涉及反法西斯主义问题时，必须重视联邦当局的警告。

The local authorities need to heed the warnings of the federal authorities when it comes to Antifa.

自2016年以来，国土安全部已将反法西斯主义的活动描述为国内恐怖主义暴力行为，而不是将反法西斯主义组织或运动本身定性为恐怖主义。

Since 2016, the DHS has described Antifa activities as domestic terrorist violence, not the group itself and the movement itself, but the activities.

但这里的当地警方，无论是出于政治原因还是其他原因，似乎都没有认真对待这一点。

And that is something that the local police here, either for political reasons or what, I don't know, don't take serious.

事实上，不幸的是，最近波特兰市议会竟然投票决定让该市退出联邦调查局联合反恐工作组，理由是联邦调查局和联邦当局不公平地监控穆斯林和左翼团体。

In fact, unfortunately, very recently, the Portland city council actually voted to withdraw the city from the FBI Joint Terrorism Task Force, citing concerns that the FBI and federal authorities unfairly monitor Muslims and left wing groups.

因此，我们这座城市中，有一群市议会成员和市民本身并非暴力激进分子，但他们与反法西斯主义在意识形态上立场一致，因而认为其诉求是正当且道德的。

So we have a city council and a constituency in the city who are not violent militants but share a certain ideological alignment with Antifa and therefore believe their cause is just and moral.

这正是他们继续从事这些行为的合法性来源。

And this is what gives them the legitimacy to continue to do what they do.

他们背后还有一圈更大的、同情安提法的媒体写手，这些人将安提法的主流手段美化，让公众根本看不出他们的行为有何问题。

They have a very there's a much larger concentric circle of Antifa sympathetic writers in the media who whitewash mainstream Antifa tactics into making it so that the public don't even see what they do as problematic.

但我希望，像我这样的遭遇——至少有一位俄勒冈州的记者拍下了部分袭击过程——能清楚地表明，这个运动根本不配被称为‘反法西斯’。

But I hope what happened to me and I was very fortunate that an Oregonian journalist at least caught part of the attack on camera that it brings to makes it very clear that this movement does not deserve to be called Antifascist.

这完全是误称，是他们自封的称号，而媒体也一直顺从地这样称呼他们。

That's a absolute that's a misnomer that they give themselves, and the media has been compliant in calling them that.

我研究这个运动已经有一段时间了，我认为它更像是一场极端无政府主义的准军事运动，打着善意的幌子。

I've been looking into this movement for a while, and I would describe them as a paramilitary like movement of extreme anarchism and kindness.

他们的行事方式就是对反对者使用暴力和恐吓。

And the the modus operandi is violence and intimidation against their opponents.

如果不用暴力，就通过散布虚假和误导性信息来毁坏反对者的声誉。

And if not violence, then disinformation and misinformation campaigns to smear the reputations of their opponents.

比如像我这样为主流媒体撰稿、为一家中间派杂志工作的人，他们就污蔑我是纳粹，因此认为我活该被曝光、被袭击，甚至在这次事件中差点丧命。

For example, somebody like me who's written for mainstream publications and works for a centrist magazine, smearing me as a Nazi and therefore fit to be targeted, to be doxxed, to be hit, and in this case, maybe even almost nearly killed.

所以

So

是的，低于人性尊严是他们的目标。

Yeah, beneath human dignity is the objective.

他们把你描绘成低于人性尊严，然后就会据此行事。

They paint you as beneath human dignity, and then they act accordingly.

是的，当这一切发生时，没有人来帮我，我跌跌撞撞地离开，浑身是血，双眼失明，能听到身后人们嘲笑我，这让我无比清楚地意识到这一点。

Yeah, that was made very so clear to me when all this happened and nobody came to help me as I was stumbling away, bleeding, blinded, I could hear the people laughing at me behind me.

被拍了下来

Caught on

在视频里。

the video.

讽刺的是，就在几分钟前，他们还在高喊：‘没有仇恨，没有恐惧’。

What's so ironic is that moments before they were chanting, No hate, no fear.

嗯，某种程度上，让我这么说吧。

Well, there is some sort of a Let's put it this way.

非自由主义的威权左派不断重新设定讽刺的底线。

The illiberal, authoritarian left keeps resetting the bar of irony.

这一切都充满讽刺，你知道，包括‘反法西斯’这个名字，我同意，他们根本不是这么回事。

Everything about it is ironic, you know, including the name Antifascist, which I agree, is not what they are at all.

而且，你知道，这又回到了这是一个非党派问题。

And, you know, again, this goes back to this being a nonpartisan issue.

我们眼睁睁看着一个犯罪组织在光天化日下运作，政治机器默许其行为，阻止警察依法执法，结果完全可预见。

We have a criminal enterprise operating in the open with the tacit approval of the political apparatus, which holds the police back from simply enforcing the law, and the result is totally predictable.

我还会把他们描述为一支准军事组织。

I would also describe them as a paramilitary organization.

事实上，回想这次采访时，我脑海中立刻浮现出的就是这个术语。

In fact, in thinking about this interview, that was exactly the term that came to mind.

同时让我想到的是，政治光谱各派的人都看到了同样的情况。

And what also comes to mind is the fact that people across the political spectrum have seen the same thing.

如果你没有直接遭遇过反法西斯主义者，你就不会真正了解他们是什么样的。

If you don't encounter Antifa directly, you don't know what they're about.

但一旦你亲身遭遇过他们，真相就变得非常清楚了。

But once you've encountered them, it becomes very clear.

例如，克里斯·黑兹，和我一样，政治立场非常左倾，也对黑块无政府主义者深感困扰，因为他们一心追求暴力。

So for example, Chris Hedges, who is like me, quite far to the left, has also had serious problems with black bloc anarchists because they are hell bent on violence.

事实上，这种对敌人的虚假描绘成了一种暴力的借口，仿佛只有用这些手段才能对抗他们。

In fact, it becomes a kind of excuse for violence is the false portrayal of this enemy that can only be confronted with these tactics.

而且，实际上围绕着这一切形成了一整套话语体系。

And in fact, there's a whole language that surrounds it.

他们谈论所谓的‘战术多样性’。

They talk about a diversity of tactics.

‘战术多样性’其实是暗语，意思是我们会支持那些想要施暴的人，允许他们混入人群、逃避任何后果。

Diversity of tactics is a code for we are going to support those who wish to be violent and behave in a way that allows them to disappear into the crowd and not to pay any price for doing so.

那么，你知道，另一端承受这些的是谁呢？

And, you know, who's on the other end of it?

是你。

It's you.

也可能是我。

It could easily be me.

这就是克里斯·黑兹。

It's Chris Hedges.

这种行为若被容忍，完全说不通，它对言论自由产生了极其寒冷却的效果，连说出事实的能力都受到了压制。

It makes no sense for this to be tolerated, and it it has an absolutely chilling effect on discourse, the simple ability to say what is.

有些人穿着用于犯罪的装备公然走在街上，实施暴力行为，却能逍遥法外。

There are people dressed to commit crimes who walk the streets openly, commit violent acts, and are able to get away with it.

他们是双面话术的大师。

They're masters of doublespeak.

这从名称就开始了，然后延伸到方方面面。

It starts in the name, for one, and it goes down to everything else.

比如，就像你所说的，‘战术多样性’，这实际上暗指什么，对吧？

For example, like you said, the diversity of tactics, what that is really code for, right?

支持他人，甚至可能参与暴力肢体冲突。

Supporting others and maybe even engaging in violent physical confrontations.

他们用的另一个词是自卫，社区自卫。

Another one they use is self defense, community self defense.

但他们说的并不是人们通常理解的意思。

And they don't mean it how people understand it.

对他们来说，自卫是经过预谋的进攻行为。

Self defense to them is offensive action that is premeditated.

我想深入探讨一个我认为与整个系统运作核心相关的问题，特别是像你经历的那样事件。

So I wanna chase down an issue that I think is at the heart of how this whole system functions surrounding an incident like the one that happened to you.

目前，人们的立场已经深深烙印在他们的心理中，而社交媒体上的算法会强化这些立场，让你不断接触到那些迎合你既有观念、并将你视为不同的人妖魔化的内容。

There's a way in which people's teams are encoded very deeply in their psyches at the moment, and these things are reinforced on social media by the algorithms that cause you to encounter things that flatter your preconceptions and demonize those that you perceive as different from you.

这导致人们在看待像你所经历的事件时，不是去客观看待它——一场透明的、暴力的攻击，针对的只是一个在白天的美国街头拍摄记录的人——而是本能地去寻找那些他们认为能帮助自己理解这一事件的信息来源。

And it results in people looking at an event like what happened with you, and instead of looking at it for what it is, you know, a transparent attack, a violent attack on somebody who is simply reporting, simply pointing a camera at something in an American street in broad daylight, that what happens is people intuit what sources they are to pay attention to in order to have sense made of this event.

所以，你今晚在福克斯新闻与塔克·卡尔森同框，而《华尔街日报》也发表了一篇非常理性的社论，谈论了你所遭遇的事情。

So the fact that you were on Fox News with Tucker Carlson tonight, The Wall Street Journal released a very sober editorial about what happened to you.

这两家媒体是最早报道埃弗格林事件的，这并不令人意外。

It's not surprising that those two sources were the first people to pick up on the story at Evergreen.

这不过是老面孔罢了。

It's the usual suspects.

这种机制之所以有效，是因为左翼人士知道，他们应该忽视那些出现在这些频道上的任何内容。

And the reason it works this way is because those on the left know that they are supposed to discount anything that comes across those airwaves.

因此，比如在推特上，一些左翼的蓝标用户会说出极其恶毒的话，说你活该遭受这次袭击。

And so there's a way in which you've got people on Twitter, for example, blue check mark folks from the left, saying the most vile stuff about how you deserved this attack.

那么，你到底要做什么才会活该遭到袭击呢？

And it's like, what would you have had to do to deserve an attack?

除非你真的对袭击者实施了暴力，否则没有任何行为能为这种袭击辩护。

There's nothing short of you actually having engaged in violence against your attackers that would justify it.

然而，却有一些受过教育、有稳定工作的人，竟然认为在抗议现场举着摄像机就足以成为遭受暴力殴打的理由？

And yet, you have people who are presumably educated and hold down a job speaking as if pointing a camera at a protest could possibly justify physical beating?

这毫无道理，但这一切都与我们被分裂有关。

It makes no sense, but it has something to do with us having been divided.

那些没有出现的媒体，正是自认为属于左翼的人们所关注的媒体。

The press who hasn't shown up are the press that people who see themselves as on the left pay attention to.

而出现的媒体，则是右翼人群所观看的媒体。

And the press that has shown up is the the press that is is watched by people on the right.

所以关键在于，为什么Antifa和波特兰的大多数人会对你是谁产生如此错误的理解？

And so the point is, how is it that Antifa and people at large in Portland could have such a wrong understanding of who you are?

关于你，有两种叙事。

Well, there are two narratives about you.

你。

You.

右翼有一种叙事，左翼也有另一种叙事。

There's one narrative on the right, and there's one narrative on the left.

作为你的朋友，一个与你有过亲身互动的人，我可以证明，左翼对你的描述与现实几乎毫无关联。

I can attest as your friend and somebody who's interacted with you personally that the narrative about you on the left bears very little resemblance to reality.

你知道的。

You know?

它和你真实的身份只有些表面的相似之处，比如，你是越南裔，你是同性恋，这些会被报道出来。

It has a few superficial analogies to your actual person, but in terms of, you know, you're of Vietnamese descent, you're gay, that gets reported.

这些都是事实，但关于你的说法却是，你是个挑衅者，对吧？

Those are facts, but what is said about you is that you're a provocateur, right?

我认为关键在于，你更愿意相信哪一个故事？

And I think the point is, the question is which story would you like to believe?

你更愿意相信安迪·吴只是用摄像机拍摄一些事物，而你可以像任何人一样解读这些画面的含义吗？

Would you like to believe that Andy Ngo points a camera at things and you can interpret as well as anybody what the footage means?

还是你更愿意相信，安迪·吴试图描绘一幅图景，来妖魔化那些对真实问题感到愤怒的年轻人？

Or would you like to believe that, you know, Andy Ngo is trying to paint a picture to to demonize kids who are upset about real stuff.

关键是，这两个故事无法调和，其中一个是纯粹的虚构。

And the point is those two stories are they can't be reconciled, and one of them is just simply a fiction.

但对于那些一开始就从其中一个来源出发的人而言，他们会得出结论，认为你某种程度上是自找的。

But for people who start by pursuing the story in one of those those sources, they will come to the conclusion that somehow you invited this.

很遗憾，一些主流媒体以及当地权威报纸《俄勒冈人报》在报道此事时，选择聚焦于给我贴上标签。

It's unfortunate that some of the mainstream press reporting on this, as well as the local paper of record, The Oregonian, really chosen to focus on labels to affix to me.

右翼挑衅者，右翼评论员。

Right wing provocateur, right wing commentator.

对我来说，这些标签仿佛在暗示，我的观点和作为记者的专业工作，与我所遭受的攻击无关，他们只是用安提法所憎恨的某种思维来曲解我的工作。

It's as if to me that those my views and my professional work as a journalist is irrelevant to the attack that happened to me by sort of contextualizing work that Antifa hates a mind.

我几乎觉得，他们以一种微妙的方式，正在为发生在我的事情寻找借口。

I almost feel like they're kind of, in a subtle way, finding a justification justification for for what what happened happened to to me.

我。

Me.

这和2015年伊斯兰激进分子袭击阿卜杜勒事件后的情况类似，当时进步派左翼开始提出各种观点，比如：那家出版物具有挑衅性，他们刊登的内容冒犯了穆斯林及其先知。

It's it was the same thing similarly to after the Abdul attacks in 2015 by the jihadists, then those on the progressive left started raising up points like, well, the publication was provocative, and the work that they published was insulting to Muslims and their prophet.

我不明白这些观点除了间接表达‘你这是自找的’之外，还有什么其他意义。

And I don't see what purpose those points serve other than in a way to say indirectly that you kinda had it coming.

是的，这种‘你这是自找的’想法，我实在想不出比这更恶劣的词了，对吧？

Yeah, this idea that you had it coming is I mean, I can't think of another term other than it's vile, right?

最让我困扰的是，我们是美国人，但这一点似乎对人们毫无分量。

And what troubles me most about it is that we're Americans, and somehow, that is not carrying any weight with people.

人们把我和你当作‘他者’。

People view you and me as other.

我想对比一下这种情况。

And I would contrast that.

你我和我处在平行的圈子里。

You and I travel in parallel circles.

有一群人并没有这样行事。

There's a group of people who isn't behaving this way.

我的意思是，当我们不在活动场合、一起吃饭时，大家都清楚你我政治立场不同。

People who I mean, when we have gathered outside of the context of events, when we've been at a meal together, everybody knows that you and I are on different sides of the political spectrum.

这并不是一个根本性的事实。

It's not a fundamental fact.

它可能只是对话的基础。

It might be the basis for a conversation.

为什么你我看待这个问题的方式不同？

Why is it that you and I see an issue differently?

但没有人觉得对方不配安全地走在街上。

But there's no sense that the other person is less deserving of the right to walk down the street safely.

我的意思是，这种想法太荒谬了。

I mean, that's a preposterous notion.

所以，真正的问题是，究竟有多少公众仍然保持着这样一种观念：你的政治立场与你在波特兰街头遭遇的悲剧和令人恐惧的事件毫无关系。

And so I guess the question really is, what fraction of the public is actually still in touch with that idea that your politics actually have nothing to say about whether or not what happened to you in the streets of Portland is is a tragic and frightening turn of events.

当然，是的。

Of course, is.

一位正在报道新闻的人——这几乎是最神圣的美国权利之一——仅仅因为履行职责就遭到了人身攻击。

A human being who was reporting, which is as close to a sacred American right as there is, was physically attacked for having done so.

这对每一个真正关心国家立国理想的人来说，都是一种亵渎。

That is an offense to every person who actually cares about the ideals that the nation was founded on.

这件事没有左右之分。

There's no left or right about that.

这纯粹是可耻的。

It's just simply despicable.

就在本次采访之前，我遇到了几起有人伪造新闻标题的事件，故意制造出媒体报导你伪造自己遭袭的假象。

Just before this interview, I encountered a couple of instances where somebody had actually forged headlines, made it appear that publications had reported that you had faked your own attack.

我必须说，当我看到这些内容时，我第一反应并不是认为它们是伪造的。

Now, I must say that when I looked at these things, my first thought was not that they were a forgery.

我第一个念头是：天哪，这些媒体怎么可能这样描述这件事？

My first thought was, Oh my goodness, how could these publications possibly portray this?

我的意思是，我知道，因为我去了医院。

I mean, I know because I went to the hospital.

我亲眼看到你在遭到袭击后的第一时间受伤的样子。

I saw you injured in the immediate aftermath of this attack.

你怎么可能伪造一场导致脑出血的袭击？

You didn't fake an attack that caused a brain bleed?

这想法太荒谬了。

That's an insane notion.

结果发现，这些媒体根本没说你伪造了袭击，但有些人完全不顾你所受的伤害，反而恶毒地将你描绘成这场袭击的始作俑者。

Well, turns out these publications didn't say that you did, but people who apparently were given no pause whatsoever by the damage done to you, made it even worse by viciously portraying you as the cause of the attack against you.

我都不知道该说什么了。

I'm not even sure what to say.

当人们无端编造理由，把本不属于你的责任全推到你身上时，这种雪上加霜的感觉是怎样的？

What is that like to have people add insult to injury by just simply manufacturing a reason to blame you entirely for something for which you have no blame.

安提法组织毫不介意制造和传播虚假信息。

Antifa has no problem engaging in hoaxes and disseminating hoaxes.

他们特别对我生气，因为今年早些时候，我为《纽约邮报》写了一篇文章，调查了安提法及其盟友散布的十五起以上指控。

They're particularly angry at me that back in earlier this year, I wrote a story for the New York Post where I investigated 15 plus allegations that were being pushed out by Antifa and their allies.

所谓盟友，指的是美国民主社会主义者以及本地其他各种极左运动和团体，他们声称波特兰街头的LGBT人群正遭受殴打、抢劫、谋杀和绑架。

And by allies, mean the Democratic Socialists of America and various other far left movements and groups in town with claims that LGBT people were being targeted for beatings, robberies, murders, kidnappings on the streets of Portland.

住在这里，你找不到比这里更接纳LGBT群体的地方了。

Living here, you could not find a more LGBT accepting place.

听到这些事情发生，却没有任何证据被提供出来。

And hearing that these things were happening and yet the no evidence was put forth.

在唯一一起向警方报案的事件中，GoFundMe上宣称的‘被跨性别恐惧者用球棒击打头部’的说法，与警方报告中的记录完全不同。

And so in the one incident that was reported to police, the narrative that was put out on the GoFundMe about being beat on the head by transphobes with bats, That story was entirely different from that documented in the police report.

因此，他们对我写那篇文章非常愤怒，现在或许觉得这是一场笑话，或者只是他们想再搞一次虚假宣传。

So they're very angry that I wrote that piece, and now perhaps they think it's a joke or maybe it's just them trying to engage in another hoax.

他们散布这些假新闻，声称我串通认识的人殴打自己，以便发起筹款并从中获利。

They're putting out these fake news stories, screenshots that I was involved in paying people I knew to beat me up so that I could do a fundraiser and get money off that.

首先，这将构成犯罪行为或欺诈。

Well, first of all, that would be a criminal act or fraud.

所以，如果任何人有我行为不当的证据，请公之于众。

So if anybody has any evidence of wrongdoing on my part, make it public, please.

我看到有人指控我挑拨他人，我希望得到具体细节。

I see accusations that I was provoking people, and I would like specifics.

活动现场到处都是活动人士安装的摄像头。

There were cameras everywhere by activists.

如果你有证据证明我未保持专业态度，请公之于众以作记录。

If you have evidence that I was not conducting myself in a professional way, please put that out for the record.

我始终坚持，从袭击发生前到袭击后，我一整天都保持了完全的专业性。

I maintained that I was entirely professional throughout the whole day leading up to and after the attack.

我也可以这么说，我以前和你一起参加过抗议活动。

I can also say that I've been at a protest with you before.

我看过你在这里行为的视频。

I've seen the video of how you behaved here.

关于是否应该走进这样的场景，确实有个疑问，但这个问题和人们会问战地记者的一样。

There is a question about the wisdom of walking into such a scenario, but it's the same question question that one would have to ask a war correspondent.

去战区明智吗？

Is it smart to go to a war zone?

嗯，不明智。

Well, no, it's not.

但另一方面，总得有人去做。

On the other hand, somebody has to do it.

我认为，你脸上伤口和头部受伤的真正意义，是给我们其他人的一个警示。

And I think the real point about the wounds on your face and the injury walking to your head, that's a warning to the rest of us.

这是一个警示。

That's a warning.

不要做安迪做的事。

Don't do what Andy does.

安迪做的事，就是把摄像机对准别人不敢对准的东西。

And what Andy does is he points a camera at things that other people don't.

他揭示了某些真实的事情，而那些参与这些真实之事的人并不希望这些被理解。

He reveals something true and those who are participating in that true thing do not wish it to be understood.

他们希望把自己描绘成受害者的捍卫者，但实际上却热衷于暴力，寻找借口，并愿意趁人不备施以冷拳。

They wish to portray themselves as the champion of victims when in fact they are eager to engage in violence and looking for an excuse and willing to sucker punch.

至于我，你根本不需要为自己被指控参与此事而辩护。

And, you know, as far as I'm concerned, you don't need to defend yourself from accusations that you had a hand in this.

我欣赏你愿意邀请人们提出这些证据，说实话，如果我处在你的位置，我也会有同样的本能，但你并没有伪造这次袭击。

I appreciate your willingness to invite people to present that evidence, and, you know, my that would be my instinct too if I were in your shoes, but you didn't fake this attack.

你去了一个地方，那里的人们像对待女巫一样，对疯癫之人施加暴行，女巫。

You went to a place where people involved in in madness did what they do to witches, witches.

事实上，这关乎我们每一个人。

And the fact is that's all of our business.

这绝对是对波特兰正直民众的威胁。

It is it is absolutely a threat to decent people in Portland.

我不禁想，我是不是搬到了一个无法保障安全的城市，因为政治风向使得法律无法对那些仅仅声称自己属于极左的人实施制裁？

I wonder, you know, have I moved to a town where I can't be safe because the political winds do not allow the law to be enforced against people if they just simply claim themselves to be on the far left?

我的意思是，这不可能，但也许我们真的到了这一步。

I mean, that that can't be, but maybe that's where we've landed.

如果我可以再补充一点，我认为这件事的责任在于惠勒市长。

If I can add one more thing, I do think responsibility for this falls to Mayor Wheeler.

我认为这就是警察不采取行动的原因。

I think that's the reason that the police don't act.

并不是警察不清楚该做什么，我邀请惠勒市长来这儿。

It's It's not that the police are confused about what needs to happen, and I would invite mayor Wheeler to come here.

我很乐意跟他谈谈你所遭遇的事情。

I would be happy to talk to him about what happened in your case.

我会给他一个公平的机会，尽管我认为他有很多需要解释的地方。

I would give him a fair shake, although I think he has a lot to answer for him.

但我认为最关键的问题是，我们现在已经看到了市长政策的结果，而这个结果是不可接受的。

But I think the biggest question is we've now seen the result of the mayor's policy, and that result is unacceptable.

难道非要等到有人丧命才行吗？

And is it going to take a death?

难道非要等到这种地步，才会有人采取行动吗？

Is that what it's going to take in order for something to be done?

还是说，市长能否看清这场袭击的明显含义——那就是法律必须对所有各方一视同仁，无论其政治信仰或主张如何，这正是文明社会的本质。

Or can can the mayor read the obvious implication of this attack, which is the law has to be enforced against all parties irrespective of their political beliefs and claims, and that's just simply the nature of a civilized society.

我要记录在案的是，波特兰两个邻近县已经决定不再派遣警员协助波特兰警察局。

I want to point out for the record that two neighboring counties to Portland have made the decision that they're no longer going to assist the Portland Police Bureau by sending their officers.

他们提到，派出的警员自身也可能面临危险，以及这座城市反警察的氛围。

And they mentioned the danger that their own officers can be put in as well as the anti police climate in the city.

今年二月我参加了一场警务公开听证会，当时市长和警察局长丹妮尔·奥特劳就在台上，结果大量安提法和极左活动人士蜂拥而至，把整个会议围得水泄不通。

This was made so clear to me back in February when I attended a policing town hall where the mayor was on the at the table with the police chief, chief Danielle Outlaw, and there was a ton of Antifa and far left activists who just swarmed this meeting.

他们利用人数优势施压，这让我想起我们在埃弗格林看到的那些场景——人群尖叫，愤怒充斥着本应井然有序的会议。

And they used their numbers to bully, and it reminded me some ways of those scenes we saw in Evergreen, of the crowd screaming and that anger in what should be an orderly meeting.

他们要求解散警察，并指责市长过于支持警察，而忽视了所谓的受害群体。

And they were calling for the police to be dismantled and telling the mayor to that he was too much in support of the police against so called victimized communities.

因此，他听到的正是这些最响亮、最愤怒的人传达的信息，而不幸的是，他们非常擅长组织，尤其是因为他们毫不介意使用虚假和误导性信息。

So this is the message that he's hearing from the most vocal and angry people who, unfortunately, are very good at organizing, particularly because they have no problems with using misinformation and disinformation.

而波特兰作为一个单一文化的地区，实际上没有任何制衡力量来提供不同的视角，甚至无法就城市中的某些问题——比如警务——设定事实。

And with Portland being the monoculture that it is, there's really no counterpoise providing a different not just even a different perspective, like setting the facts around certain issues in the city, around policing, for example.

一切都关乎叙事。

It's all about narratives.

我有时在想，这些人是否已经将自己认同为无政府主义者或共产主义者，并融入了安提法，似乎他们已经失去了生活的意义和目标，因此通过这些极端意识形态来寻找它。

And I wonder sometimes if these people have taken on their identity as anarchists or communists and put themselves in Antifa, it seems like they they've they've lost meaning and purpose in their life, and so they're looking for it through these extremist ideologies.

当谈到宗教极端主义时，幸运的是，这一点很容易识别。

And, you know, when it comes to religious extremism, fortunately, that's very easy to recognize.

当谈到极右翼极端主义时，公众非常擅长界定，我甚至认为可能过于敏感了。

When it comes to far right extremism, the public is very good at, and I would argue perhaps overly sensitive at defining what that is.

但谈到极左翼时，似乎根本不存在明确的界定。

When it comes to the far left, there seems to be no greed on definition.

即使你问：左翼过度到什么程度才算过界？

Even when you ask the what does it look like for the left to go too far?

他们很难给出一个答案。

They struggle to give an answer.

是的，如果你只是简单地自我定义为代表边缘化人群行事，显然你就有了在街头攻击记者的资格，这显然是个明显的漏洞。

Yeah, and it's an obvious loophole if you just simply self define as acting on behalf of marginalized people, apparently, you're entitled to attack journalists in the street.

你知道，这不可能是对的。

And, you know, that can't be.

你不能允许一种自我定义的方式，来违反法律、穿着掩盖身份的服装，从大多数安提法成员的角度来看，这显然是一场游戏。

It's just you you there can't be a self defined option to violate the law to dress in such a way that you anonymize yourself, and it's obviously a game from the point of view of most of the the Antifa.

让我问你一个问题。

So let me ask you this.

你是一名记者。

You're a journalist.

你为奎莱特工作，我想知道，在这样一个高度两极化、充满敌意的环境中，当一方显然有权实施暴力时，你该如何做新闻？

You work with Quillet, and I'm wondering how one does journalism in an environment that is this polarized and toxic, and in which one side is entitled, apparently, to commit violence.

说这是场艰难的战斗都太轻描淡写了。

To call it an uphill battle is an understatement.

奎莱特作为少数几家有如此影响力、却在反击这种趋势的出版物之一，一直遭受着许多资深记者的持续攻击，指责这家杂志是保守派、另类右翼、极右翼，用这些标签来削弱它的公信力。

Quillette, being one of the few publications of its reach that is pushing back against us, has come under relentless attacks from very established journalists accusing the magazine of being reactionary, alt right, far right, all these things to delegitimize it.

这种说法在一些报道中也开始流行起来。

And it's catching on a little bit in some of the reporting.

这些，再次强调，都是为了贬低对手而散布的谎言。

These are, again, lies to delegitimize your opponents.

这关乎——我认为这是你或别人说过的一句话，但我没发明这个说法——那就是制造虚构的敌人。

It's about and I think this is an expression either you or somebody else said, but I didn't come up with it, but it's about creating phantom enemies.

这还关乎阻止你用自己的眼睛去观察。

It's also about preventing you from seeing with your own eyes.

是的。

Mhmm.

对吧？

Right?

如果你在读任何一篇Quillette的文章之前，就听说它属于边缘、极右翼之类的，那么，首先，如果你不自认为是右翼，你很可能就不会去查看它的内容。

There's something about, you know, if you hear that Colette is fringe, far right, whatever it may be, before you ever read a Quillette article, then, a, you probably don't go check it out if you don't view yourself as right of center.

换句话说，所传播的是一种污名，阻止人们进一步深入了解。

In other words, what's being broadcast is kind of a stigma that prevents people from looking any farther.

听起来很复杂。

It sounds sophisticated.

哦，当然了，他们肯定会这么说。

Oh, well, of course, they would say that.

那是科莱特，他们以保守反动著称。

That's Colette, and they're known to be reactionary.

我其实不知道该怎么从政治上给科莱特归类。

Well, I wouldn't know how to categorize Colette politically.

我看到的内容涵盖各种立场，事实上，你想要的正是这样一份刊物——你很难给它贴上标签，因为它并不受意识形态束缚。

I see stuff all across the map, and in fact, that's what you want is a publication where you can't quite peg where they are because they're not ideological.

他们实际上是在探索各种议题。

They're actually exploring things.

我知道科莱特上有些内容确实让我翻白眼，但我根本想不出哪家刊物没有这种情况。

And, you know, I see stuff in Colette that causes me to roll my eyes for sure, but I can't name the publication where that isn't the case.

我认为最重要的一点是，这种策略阻止了读者接触他们本应看到的内容，也阻止了记者真正去挖掘新闻，因为他们在你脸上看到了一个真实存在的威胁，安迪·恩戈。

And I think the most important point is the strategy that is being deployed prevents readers from engaging content they need to see, and it prevents reporters from actually getting to the story because they can see a threat that is all too real on your face, Andy Ngo.