Why Most Legal Departments Overspend—and How Legal Ops Can Help Fix It | Data Xposure - Ep 14

如今，企业法务团队持续面临压力，需要控制成本、应对不断增长的工作量，并在诉讼、调查和合规方面领先于风险。

Corporate legal teams today are under constant pressure to manage costs, manage growing workloads, and stay ahead of risk across litigation, investigations, and compliance.

但这里的挑战是：即使拥有更多技术、更多供应商和更多资源，许多法务团队仍在超支。

But here's the challenge: even with more technology, more vendors, and more resources, many legal teams are still overspending.

而这并不总是因为某一个重大的决策。

And it's not always because of one big decision.

更常见的情况是，问题源于一些不太显眼的因素：权责分散。

More often, it comes down to something less visible: fragmented ownership.

技术、供应商以及真正驱动法务业务的流程，其权责都处于分散状态。

Fragmented ownership of technology, of vendors, and of the processes that actually run the business of legal.

当法务运营团队介入并开始像管理一个纪律严明的业务那样管理法务工作时，会发生什么？

What happens when legal operations steps in and starts running legal like a disciplined business?

今天对话的主题正是如此。

That's what today's conversation is all about.

我是Exterro的市场副总裁迈克·汉密尔顿，欢迎收听由Exterro带来的《数据暴露》节目。Exterro是电子取证、数据隐私、取证和数据风险管理技术领域的领导者。

I'm Mike Hamilton, VP of Marketing at Exterro, and this is Data Exposure brought to you by Exterro, the leader in e discovery, data privacy, forensics, and data risk management technology.

今天，我邀请到了Thrivent法律运营总监艾琳·鲁索姆。

Today, I'm joined by Alayne Russom, Director of Legal Operations at Thrivent.

艾琳的职业生涯一直致力于法律、技术和运营的交汇点。

Alayne has built her career at the intersection of legal, technology, and operations.

她从一名助理律师起步，逐步成长为专注于优化法律工作执行方式的领导者。

Starting on the front lines as a paralegal and evolving into a leader focused on optimizing how legal work actually gets done.

在本集中，她分享了如何通过集中管理法律技术和供应商来发现数百万美元的节省空间，如何通过将更多工作转为内部处理来重新思考外部律师的开支，以及法律运营领导者如何在不拖慢团队效率的前提下，优化整个企业的流程。

In this episode, she shares how centralizing legal technology and vendor management helps her uncover millions of dollars in savings, how to rethink outside counsel spend by bringing more work in house, and how legal ops leaders could streamline processes across the business without slowing teams down.

艾琳，欢迎来到我们的播客。

Alayne, welcome to the podcast.

在深入讨论演讲内容之前，我非常想更多地了解你的背景，你是如何进入这一行业的，以及是什么真正吸引了你。

Before we get into the meat of the presentation, really want to learn more about you and how you got started in the industry and what really drew you to it.

首先，非常感谢你邀请我。

Well, thanks for having me, first of all.

另外，我想先做一个简短的免责声明：今天我所表达的观点和内容仅代表我个人，不代表我雇主的立场。

And I also just wanna give a quick little disclaimer that the opinions and things that I state today are my own and not that of my employer.

但我是怎么进入法律领域的？是什么吸引了我？

But how I got into the legal field, what drew me into it?

上大学时，我主修刑事司法。

When I was in college, was a criminal justice major.

我曾梦想上法学院，成为一名刑事辩护律师。

I had a dream of going to law school and becoming a criminal defense attorney.

我真的很想成为一名公设辩护人。

Really, I wanted to be a public defender.

结果发现，法学院并不适合我。

It turned out law school wasn't for me.

于是，我成为了一名诉讼律师助理，这实际上非常有成就感。

Instead, I became a litigation paralegal, which was actually really incredibly rewarding.

在2005年加入我现在这家公司之前，我曾在几家律师事务所工作。

I worked in a couple of law firms before coming to my current employer in 2005.

我最喜欢律师助理工作的地方，就是深入每个案件，寻找那根针里的稻草。

The thing I liked most about being a paralegal was digging into each case and looking for that needle in a haystack.

我非常喜欢证据开示过程。

I loved the discovery process.

我热爱阅读邮件、笔记和医疗记录。

I loved reading emails, notes, medical records.

我觉得自己是个异类，因为我真的特别喜欢整理医疗记录，觉得这非常有趣。

I think I was a unicorn in that I really loved summarizing medical records and I just found that fascinating.

雇员记录，所有东西都一样。

Employment records, everything.

13年时，我接手了一个为期两年的临时职位，负责领导我们的行为准则办公室，其中包括进行内部欺诈调查。

13, I took on a two year temp role leading our quote of conduct office, which included conducting internal fraud investigations.

我成为了认证欺诈检查员，并且能够像以前做律师助理时那样，深入挖掘每一个案件。

I became a certified fraud examiner, and I was able to get my fill of digging to each of the cases the same way I did as a paralegal.

那个职位结束后，我提出了开发并领导一个电子证据开示项目的建议，以支持诉讼和内部调查。

After that role ended, I pitched the idea of developing and leading an e discovery program that would support both litigation and our internal investigations.

这个建议获得了批准，至今仍然是我负责的工作内容之一。

That was approved and continues to be a bucket of work I'm responsible for today.

你现在的职业路径真的很有趣。

That's a really interesting path to where you're at now.

你是Thrivent公司法律运营总监。

You're the director of legal operations at Thrivent.

在进入下一个问题之前，我得跟进一下。

And before we get into the next question, I I have to follow-up.

是你提出要开发一个关于电子取证和内部调查的项目。

You you're the one that suggested that you develop a program around e discovery and internal investigations.

能跟我讲讲这个想法是怎么产生的吗？你是怎么开始的？又是如何提出这个建议的？

Tell me a little bit about how that came into your mind, how you got started, how you proposed it.

人们肯定会很好奇，因为这是一项庞大的工程。

People would be really curious because that's a big undertaking.

最初计划是我回去做律师助理，但我真的觉得那里有更大的机会。

The original plan was that I would go back to being a paralegal, but I really thought that there was a bigger opportunity there.

我看到了开展调查与深入诉讼案件之间的相似之处。

I saw the parallels between conducting investigations and digging into litigation cases.

我的意思是，其实这全都是调查，对吧？

I mean, really, it's all investigation, right?

我知道市面上有能够支持这一点的技术。

And I knew that there was technology out there that could support that.

我认为，将这两个领域结合起来，找到它们交叉点上的协同效应，打造一个贯穿整个法律和调查工作的统一流程，是一个巨大的机会。

And I thought there was a big opportunity to bring those worlds together and find the synergies that where the work cross paths that it could be a really good support system developing a process that was consistent across all of legal and investigations.

这确实大大提升了工作的统一性，也让人们能够更高效、更出色地完成任务，说实话。

It's really created a lot of consistency in the work perhaps, and a way that people can do things more efficiently and better, quite frankly.

是的，这真的很了不起。

Yeah, that's pretty amazing.

对，这个项目包含了培训，所有人都在使用同一个系统。

Yeah, the program has, it's got training, it's got everybody's using the same system.

我们使用了模板，并集成了审计功能。

We're using templates where we've got an auditing feature.

我们拥有一个非常可靠的流程。

We've got a very defensible process.

很多调查都会直接转入诉讼。

And a lot of the investigations flow right into litigations.

很多工作其实都是提前完成的。

A lot of that work is just done ahead of time.

那给我讲讲之前的情况吧。

And so give me the before picture.

在实施这些改变之前，情况是什么样的？

What did it look like before you implemented all these changes?

天啊，每个人的做法都不一样。

Oh boy, everybody did the work differently.

我们当时用电子表格来跟踪法律保留通知。

We were tracking legal holds on spreadsheets.

我记得以前要打印备忘录，通过公司内部邮件发送给保管人，告知他们处于法律保留状态，然后还得手动跟进。

I remember back in the day of printing out a memo and sending it through interoffice mail advising a custodian that they were on legal hold and then having to follow-up with them manually.

有些人是通过电子邮件处理的。

Some people did this by email.

有些人是通过内部邮件处理的。

Some people did this through interoffice mail.

我想可能还有一些电话沟通。

I think there were probably conversations that were had by phone.

有些人比其他人更认真地完成了所有必要的步骤。

There were some folks that did a better job of, you know, checking all the boxes than others.

你知道，仅仅发送法律保留通知是不够的。

You know, just sending out the legal hold in and of itself is not sufficient.

你需要跟进，确保当事人回复、确认，并告诉你他们拥有哪些数据。

You need to follow-up, make sure the custodian responds, acknowledges, tells you what data they have.

有些人就停在那里，只查看他们手头的数据，直到到了需要为诉讼提供数据的时候才行动。

And then some people stopped there looking at what they had for data until it came time for, okay, now we need this for litigation.

我希望我们的当事人遵守了规定，确实保留了这些数据。

I hope our custodian followed the rules and actually kept that data.

有时候，当事人对数据在系统中保留多长时间根本没有控制权。

Sometimes custodians don't have any control over how long data stays in the environment.

我们必须认真跟进。

We have to really follow-up.

我们审查了所有这些内容，确保我们有一个能够落实尽职调查的流程。

We looked at all of that and made sure that we had a process that made sure that we were performing our due diligence.

尽职调查。

Diligence.

当你提到李的时候，显然你是法律运营总监。

And when you talk about Lee, obviously you're the director of legal operations.

在确保这种一致性时，你是单打独斗，还是有团队成员协助你推动这些流程？

Are you kind of a one man team when you're ensuring this consistency, or do you have people that you work with that help enable these processes?

我有一位直接向我汇报的员工。

I have one individual that reports directly to me.

就整个流程而言，我们算是两个人的团队，但我更愿意把我们的团队想象得更大一些。

For this entire process, I would say we're a two man team, but I like to actually think of our team as being much larger.

我不一定需要每个人都直接向我汇报，也能实现一致的流程。

I don't necessarily need to have everybody reporting to me you know, get a consistent process.

我们还有诉讼律师和律师助理，我也把他们视为团队的一部分。

We have litigation attorneys and paralegals that I consider to be part of that team as well.

即使我们向不同的人汇报，我们仍然是同一个团队。

We're all part of the same team, if we're all reporting to somebody different.

我们都在遵循同样的流程。

We're all following the same process.

我确保保持一致性，并让每个人参与到这个过程中，积极寻求反馈。

I made sure to be consistent and bring people along on the journey, seek feedback.

这一切都是变革管理的一部分，目的是让每个人都认同这是做事情的正确方式。

It was just all part of the change management and getting that buy in from everybody that this is the right way to do things.

而且它确实有效。

And it works.

随着时间推移，你会逐渐建立起这种信任。

Over time, you build up that trust.

作为专家，现在人们都把我当作专家，尽管我不是律师，但我们彼此都有相互的尊重。

As an expert, people do look at me as an expert now, even though I'm not an attorney and we all have mutual respect.

它就是运行得很好。

It just works well.

那么，你试图帮助实施流程、建立一致性和可重复性，涉及多少人呢？

And how many people are we talking about here that you're trying to help enforce a process and create that consistency and repeatability?

你需要协调多少人呢？

How many people are you trying to coordinate across?

大概是十个人左右。

I mean, it's about 10 people.

是的。

Yeah.

这并不是一个庞大的团队。

It's not a huge team.

我们偶尔会有一些单独的诉讼案件，比如我们的分销律师可能会遇到一些特殊的诉讼事务。

We do have some one off litigations, like maybe our distribution attorney will have a strange litigation matter that'll pop up.

她没有助理律师协助处理这些事务，所以我会介入并提供帮助。

And she doesn't have a paralegal that assists with that, so I'll step in and I'll help with that.

我们都齐心协力，互相帮助，把工作完成。

We all pitch in, we all help each other out, and we get the work done.

基于你所有的经验，我想问的是，你怎么判断一个流程是真的出了问题，还是仅仅需要一个工具来帮助管理这个流程？

The question that I have based on all your experience, right, is how do you know when a process is actually broken versus, hey, maybe I just need a tool to help manage this process?

是的，这种情况发生有几个原因。

Yeah, there's a couple of reasons this happens.

首先，我们的工作团队之间出现了信息孤岛。

First, to get siloed in our work teams.

我们的人彼此之间不交流工作内容、工作方式或使用的工具。

We have people that aren't talking to each other about the work or how it's done or what tools are being used.

这就是老话说的：我们不知道自己不知道什么。

It's the old adage, we don't know what we don't know.

拥有一个能够全面了解各种工具和流程的中心化团队，对于理解这些能力至关重要。

Having a centralized team that has insight into the various tools and processes are essential to understanding those capabilities.

另一个问题，就像我们之前提到的，是变更管理。

Another problem, like we talked about earlier, change management.

如果你的变更管理很差，这也是导致这种情况的另一个原因。

If you have poor change management, that's another reason for that happening.

我见过一些工具功能非常强大，但没人愿意使用，因为它们不够用户友好，也没有进行适当的培训。

I've seen tools that have very robust capabilities that no one will adopt because they're not user friendly and appropriate training hasn't happened.

人们只能自己摸索着去理解。

People are left to try and figure it out on their own.

这根本不会发生。

It's not gonna happen.

这种信任会被破坏。

That trust becomes broken.

这个工具基本上就没什么用了。

The tool's basically useless.

或者实施过程不顺利。

Or possibly implementation doesn't go well.

工具频繁出问题，人们对工具的信任再次被摧毁。

And the tool breaks early and often, and the trust in the tool, again, is established.

它变成了搁置的软件，而良好的实施和恰当的变更管理本可以带来更理想的结果。

It becomes shelfware and all along good implementation and proper change management would have produced a much more desirable outcome.

你刚才提到的这个关键短语——变更管理，很有意思。

That's a key phrase that you just used there, change management.

接下来我想问你的问题就与此相关，那就是你如何帮助组织通过集中技术栈和淘汰旧系统来节省时间和成本。

Because the next question I have for you relates to that, and that's with how you've helped organizations save time and money by centralizing your tech stack and retiring old systems.

为什么无论身处哪个领域，哪怕是在法务部门，专业人士都很容易无意中使用自己购买的技术，或者仅得到自己主管的批准，却从未与团队其他成员沟通？当你走到某人的办公桌前，发现他们正在使用技术X，你会想：嗯，我也可以用技术X。

Why do you think it's so easy for professionals anywhere, albeit if they're in the legal department, to accidentally end up using technology that they buy on their own, or they get signed off with their own manager, but they don't talk to the rest of the team and you go to someone's desk and you see, Hey, they're using Technology X.

你会想：我也可以用技术X。

And you're thinking, Well, I could use Technology X.

你觉得这种情况为什么会发生？

How do you think that happens?

为什么会这样？

Why does that occur?

我只是想说，流程改进是我非常热衷的领域。

I'll just say process improvement is something I'm really passionate about.

我会问人们：你能给我演示一下你是怎么完成这个流程的吗？或者你今天在做什么？

I'll ask people, Show me how you do this process, or What are you doing today?

或者你今天在使用什么工具？

Or What are you using today?

然后我会把这一点记在心里。

And then I keep that in the back of my mind.

我会不仅利用我的助理经验，还会结合我管理行为准则办公室的经验，或支持其他团队的经验。

I'll tap into not just my paralegal experience, but also my experience running the code of conduct office, or my experience in having supported another team.

我真的很喜欢使用我们已有的工具来修复有问题的流程。

I really like using tools that we already have in place to fix broken processes.

当然，如果我们还没有现成的工具，我们就需要开始寻找新的解决方案。

And obviously, we don't already have a tool, we may want to start looking for something new.

但很多流程实际上并没有问题。

But a lot of processes aren't actually broken.

它们只是可能被一些不了解更好方法的人在使用。

They're just perhaps being used by people who are uninformed that there's a better way to do it.

人们会陷入自动驾驶模式。

People get stuck in an autopilot mode.

我喜欢与人们合作，尝试找到更好的做事方式。

I like working with people to try and find a better way to do things.

新冠疫情就是一个很好的例子，帮助人们解决这个问题。

COVID was a great example of helping people with that.

我们都不得不在家工作，人们没有复印机或无法使用标记笔来遮盖内容时完全不知所措。

We all had to go and work from home and people were completely lost without that copier or without access to markers to redact things.

这真的非常有趣。

It was just, it was really interesting.

还有公证流程，这也是一个很好的例子。

Just in, or the notary process was another great process.

我实施了一项工具，使我们能够进行远程公证，并建立了一套引导人们使用该远程公证工具的流程。

I implemented a tool so that we could do remote notarizations and a process for getting people on that remote notary tool.

这又是另一个很好的例子。

That was another great example.

有一个中心人员，能够与所有人协作，了解所有不同的流程，可以帮助连接这些环节，将人们与技术连接起来，也将人们彼此连接起来。

Having a centralized person that can, that's working with everybody, that sees all the different processes, can help connect those dots and connect people to technology, connect people to people.

这有助于打破孤岛，促进人们协同工作。

It really helps to break down those silos and get people working together.

让我们更多地讨论如何降低成本，因为你已经提到了几种提高效率的方法。

Let's talk more about how to minimize costs because you've noted a couple different ways that you help to increase efficiency.

我们来谈谈成本，我知道这始终是法律运营专业人士最关心的问题。

Let's talk about cost, and I know that's always on the top of mind of a legal operations professional.

你曾与外部律师合作，并通过更高效、更有效地利用他们节省了大量资金。

You've worked with outside counsel and you've saved a lot of money trying to utilize them more efficiently and more effectively.

对于一个面临外部律师费用不断上涨的部门，你是如何开始讨论将更多工作转回内部的？这样做的价值是什么？

Far, a department stuck with, let's say, rising rates from outside counsel, or how do you, or how have you started the conversation about bringing more of that work back in house and what's the value of that?

是的。

Yeah.

首先，理解你被收取的费用非常重要。

First, it's it's important to understand what you're being charged.

建立一个定期审查每位外部律师费率的流程非常重要。

Having a process in place to regularly review each outside counsel attorney's rate is super important.

你需要定期进行这项工作，无论是每年一次还是每两年一次。

You need to do that regularly, be it annually or every two years.

你需要一个系统来审计，确保你被收费的方式符合你与该律师事务所达成的协议。

You need a system that will audit to make sure you're being billed according to the agreement you've worked out with that law firm.

这就是你获取数据的方式，然后让这些数据描绘出使用外部律师的实际成本图景。

That is how you get the data, and then you let that data paint a picture that shows the actual cost of using outside counsel.

我见过律师事务所合伙人一年内费率上涨高达20%的情况。

I've seen rates increase by as much as 20% in one year from a law firm partner.

密切关注这一点非常重要。

It's super important to pay attention to that.

但一旦你掌握了这些数据，就可以决定下一步该做什么。

But once you have that data, you can determine what to do next.

这里有一个例子，可以作为与内部律师展开有力对话的切入点。

Here's an example as a powerful conversation starter to do with in house counsel.

将贵所去年和今年的律师计时费率进行对比，并假设今年的工时保持不变。

Compare your law firm timekeeper rates from last year to this year, and assume that all the hours are flat in your current year.

如果工作内容完全相同，今年的费用与去年相比有何差异？

If all the work is the same, what is the difference between what you'll pay this year and what you've paid last year?

这会让人大吃一惊。

It's eye opening.

律师事务所因需要采购新技术而提高了费率。

Firms have increased their rates due to having to purchase new technology.

人们期望律师事务所正在使用人工智能。

There's an expectation that law firms are using AI.

这对他们来说是一项额外的成本。

That was an increased cost to them.

但人工智能将使他们更高效地完成工作。

But AI is going to cause them to do their work more efficiently.

这些效率提升不会计入账单。

It's not going to be billed out.

以前可能需要五小时才能完成并计费的工作，现在可能只需要一小时。

Something that was maybe billed out that took them five hours of time might only take them one hour now.

他们必须在其他地方收回这笔成本。

They have to recoup that cost somewhere.

我们看到了这些费率的大幅上涨。

We've seen a huge increase in those rates.

另一个需要关注的是哪些时间记录员的计费最多。

Another thing to look at is which timekeepers are billing the most.

他们在律所中的级别是什么？

What is their level within the firm?

是否由律所中恰当级别的人员在执行这些工作？

Is the right level in the law firm performing the work?

我们是否在协商更低的费率？

Are we negotiating lower rates?

你可以实际看到，如果律所说：‘这是我们的基础费率，但我们协商了10%的折扣。’

You can actually see that if the firm says, Okay, this is our base rate, but we negotiated a 10% discount.

你可以对此进行报告。

You can report on that.

你可以报告替代性收费安排。

You can report on alternative fee arrangements.

我们知道每小时的费率。

We know what the hourly rate is.

我们知道我们每年在XYZ律师事务所的支出是200万美元。

We know our spend with XYZ firm is $2,000,000 a year.

也许对于他们为我们做的这个特殊项目，我们可以协商一个固定费用或封顶费用之类的方案。

Maybe the special project they're working on for us, we could just negotiate a flat fee or a capped fee or something.

是否有可能在不增加人员的情况下内部完成这项工作？

Is it possible to do this in house without adding additional bodies?

当你看到数据、呈现数据时，它会呈现出一个有力的论据，说明更多工作应由内部完成。

When you see the data, when you present the data, it paints a compelling picture to do more in house.

让我看看幕后的具体情况。

And take me behind the curtains.

是你在分析这些数据，然后分别与他们交谈，还是你与他们的经理交谈，指出我们可以在哪些方面优化支出？

Are you the one analyzing this data and then you're having individual conversations with Or are you having that conversation with their manager to say, here's some white space in which we can optimize spend?

我是通过合作来完成的。

I do this in partnership.

我们有一个财务合作伙伴。

We have a finance partner.

因此，我与我们的财务合作伙伴共同开展这项工作。

So I do this in in partnership with our finance partner.

我确保他知道他也能看到我们的支出情况。

I make sure that, he knows he can see what we're spending as well.

我从我们的系统中生成报告，我能够访问比他更多的数据。

And I I run the reports out of our system that's showing I have access to a little bit more data than he does.

我们共同与总法律顾问办公室的高级领导团队会面，他们可以看到哪些DEPD ID在外部律师身上花费最多。

We work together and we meet with our senior leadership team within our general counsel's office, and they can see which DEPD IDs are using the most in outside counsel.

我们可以看到应计费用。

We can see accruals.

我们知道将会产生哪些费用。

We know what's going to be billed.

当你向他们展示一幅图表，表明今年的支出将比上一年多出数百万美元，而你甚至可能还被要求削减整体预算时。

And it's when you're showing them a picture that shows we're going to be spending X million dollars more this year versus what we spent the previous year, and maybe you even have a mandate to reduce your overall budget.

你可能需要增加额外的人手。

You may have to add on extra bodies.

你可以看到，你在外部律师上的支出将会增加。

You can see that you're going to be spending more on outside counsel.

我们可以在哪里节省开支？

Where can we save money?

显然，将工作内部化是最好的选择。

Obviously bringing stuff in house is going to be the best bet.

凭你的直觉，你觉得哪些领域最适合将更多工作内部化？一般来说是哪些？

Just off the top of your head, what are some of those areas that you feel are the best areas to bring more work in house, just generally speaking?

你见过法务部门将哪些原本外包给外部律师的工作重新收回内部处理？

Where have you seen legal departments take something that has been outsourced to outside counsel and bring that back in house?

那里最容易下手的是什么？

What's the low hanging fruit there?

有两点。

Two things.

第一点，我想说的是法律研究。

The first one I would just say is legal research in general.

现在有这么多工具，当然，你需要购买这些工具，但你能节省的成本是相当可观的。

There are so many tools out there that I, and again, it's a tool you're going to have to purchase, but the cost savings you're going to realize are significant.

所以，法律研究是第一点。

So legal research, number one.

合同审查可能是另一部分。

Contract review is probably another piece of that.

当然，另一部分是诉讼的证据开示阶段。

The other piece of course, is litigation, the discovery phase of litigation.

其中很多工作也可以内部完成，尤其是数据审查方面。

A lot of that can be done in house as well, especially around the data review.

我们稍后会谈到这一点，但我想要回到之前的话题：你在进行这些对话时，是基于趋势和支出金额做出明智的商业决策的。

And we'll hit on that here in a second, but I want to get back to, you have these conversations, you're making intelligent business decisions based on the trends and how much money you're spending.

你合作的律师事务所对此有何反应？

What has been the response from the law firms that you've been working with?

他们是说‘我们会配合你，尽量降低费率’，还是说‘天啊，你得去找别家了’？

Has it been, oh, we'll work with you to minimize the rate, or has it been shock, oh, well, you're gonna have to go somewhere else?

他们的反应总体怎么样？

What's that response been like?

绝对没有震惊。

Definitely not shock.

大多数律师事务所，至少大多数中大型律所，都会为他们的许多客户这么做。

Most law firms, at least most mid to large sized law firms do this for a lot of their clients.

当你在委托协议中纳入计费准则，并建立一个能根据这些准则进行审计的系统时，大幅降低外部法律顾问的费用就会变得容易得多。

When you have billing guidelines incorporated into your engagement letter and a system that audits against those guidelines, it makes savings on outside counsel expenses so much easier.

他们心里清楚。

They know.

他们知道我们有责任尽量节省开支，他们会愿意与你合作。

They know that we're tasked with trying to save money, that they will work with you.

尤其是那些从你这里获得最多业务的律所，真正的节省才来自那里。

Especially where you're going get your real savings are from the firms that get the most business from you.

因此，了解你最常使用的外部律师至关重要。

That's why it's really important to know who your most used attorneys are with outside counsel.

这些律师正是你该去争取折扣的对象。

Those are the ones you're gonna wanna hit up for those discounts.

他们期待你提出这些问题，并且几乎总是准备好提供某种折扣或替代收费安排。

They're expecting you to ask those questions, and they're almost always prepared to give you some sort of discount or, some type of alternative fee arrangement.

说起来有点遗憾，我并不是想贬低任何律师或律所的人，但这几乎就像买车一样，对吧？

It's sad to say, and I'm not trying to talk down to anyone that's a lawyer, that's at a law firm, but it's almost like negotiating and buying a car, right?

价格上是有一定谈判空间的。

There's some wiggle room in that price.

是的，当然。

Yeah, for sure.

你只需要以正确的方式提出要求。

You just need to ask for it the right way.

在法律圈待久了，就会觉得律所几乎有一种光环，或者过去有种光环，觉得我们能和你们合作真是幸运。

Being around the legal community for so long is that there's almost this aura around the law firm, or there was this aura around the law firm of, well, we're so lucky to be working with you.

这是一种伙伴关系，而不是客户关系。

And it's more of a partner relationship rather than a customer client relationship.

我打赌一定有人没去问过，因为没错。

Relationship I bet there's people out there that haven't gone and asked because Correct.

对吧？

Right?

进行这样的对话让人感到不舒服。

It's uncomfortable to have a conversation.

我的意思是，过一段时间后，你会和这些人成为好朋友，这就让对话变得很尴尬。

I mean, you become good friends with these people after a while, and it's uncomfortable to have conversations.

这也是我可以帮上忙的另一个方面。

That's another area where I can help out.

我实际上已经回到律师事务所，对我们公司的律师说：嘿，我正在和我们公司的内部法律顾问约翰·史密斯合作。

I've actually gone back to law firms for our attorneys and just said, Hey, I'm working with John Smith, our in house counsel here.

我向他指出，我们每年在你们这里的支出有X美元。

And I pointed out to him that we have X dollars in spend with you every year.

我想知道，针对我们目前正在与你们合作的这个项目，是否有可能协商一个按案件计费的费率？

I'm wondering if there is perhaps some wiggle room here that we could work out a matter level rate for this project that we're working on with you.

你们愿意在基础费率上给我们20%的折扣吗？

Would you be willing to give us a 20% discount over your base rates?

或者你们愿意将费用上限定为25,000美元或40,000美元之类的金额？回来给我个方案吧。

Or would you be willing to cap the fee at $25,000 or $40,000 or whatever it is, come back with something?

他们几乎总是说：我们非常重视与贵公司的合作关系，我们 definitely 愿意协商出一个解决方案。

They almost always say, We really value our partnership with your company, and we are definitely willing to work something out.

说实话，我从未从任何律师事务所得到过负面的回应。

I've never had a bad response from a law firm, to be honest.

是的，这是个很棒的技巧。

Yeah, it's a great technique.

内部律师希望维持这种关系，对吧？

The in house attorney wants to maintain that relationship, Right?

因此，由你作为第三方介入完全合理。

And so having you come in as a third party makes total sense.

情感因素被排除在决策之外了。

Emotions kind of are taken out of the equation.

这更像是一项商业决策。

It's more, this is a business decision.

没错。

Exactly.

我想回到你之前提到的一个领域，你说过在文件审查方面可以节省成本。

I want to get back to, you talked about one of the areas where you thought savings could be built up was around document reviews.

我们请过的很多嘉宾，有些比其他更多，都在转向一种模式：我们自己在内部收集数据，然后让律师事务所或第三方服务提供商进入我们的工具，在我们的系统中审查文件，这样我们可以：第一，避免因将数据发送给律所存储而产生额外成本；第二，保持数据集中存放，确保隐私和安全，避免数据重复。

Can you talk to me about a lot of guests that we've had come on, some more than others, have been moving towards a model of, we collect our own data in house, and then we want the law firm or whoever the third party service provider is to come into our tool and review documents in our tool so that we can, A, not accrue the extra costs for sending data out for data storage with a law firm, maintain the privacy security of having the data in one place and not having duplicates of that data.

你提到文件审查以及将这项工作内部化以实现成本节约时，指的就是这个吗？

Is that what you're talking about when you talk about document review and how bringing that in house can be a cost savings?

当然。

For sure.

你提到了几个关键点。

You hit on a couple of the points.

你知道，发送个人身份信息或个人健康信息存在隐私风险。

You know, there's the privacy risk of sending out personally identifiable information or personal health information.

还有律所收取的数据导入费用。

There's the cost of ingesting the data that the firm will charge you.

还有数据处理和去重的费用。

There's the cost of processing and de duplicating that data.

筛选数据、删除无需审查的文件的过程。

The process of culling through that data, removing files that don't need to be reviewed.

然后是设置审查和执行审查的费用。

Then the cost of setting up the review and performing the review.

我们实际上已经尝试更多地采用这种模式，特别是在我们的诉讼事务中，我们会从内部完成所有设置，包括建立审查流程、培训审查人员，并让他们进入我们的系统。

We've actually tried to move more to a model, especially in our litigation matters where we get all of that set up in house right down to setting up the review and training the reviewers and letting them into our environment.

我认为这对律师事务所来说很可怕。

I think it's scary for the law firms.

他们已经对律师们施加了很大压力，当然，他们会在我不在通话时这么做。

They've pushed back quite a bit on their attorneys and they try, of course, to do that when I'm not on the call.

是的。

Yeah.

但我们已经尝试过几次了，效果非常好。

But we've we've done it a few times now and it's it's gone really well.

所以，你知道，我甚至都没提到数据上传的成本，说实话，这可能是最昂贵的部分。

So I, you know, and I didn't even mention the cost posting the data, which quite frankly is probably the most expensive piece of it.

你也不用支付项目经理的费用。

You're not paying for the project manager either.

真正收费的只是审阅者的时间成本，或者按文档计费，等等，你知道的，就是这些费用。

It's really just that cost of the reviewer's time or the per document time or whatever it is that, you know, you're being charged.

所以我也喜欢使用一个电子表格，实际上这是我从我们的一家第三方服务提供商那里获得的模型。

So I like to also, I have a spreadsheet, which actually is a model I'd gotten from one of our third party service providers.

你知道吗，我常问，如果自己内部做这个，你们会收多少钱？

You know, I've said, what would you charge to do this in house?

你们每处理一吉字节数据的审查费用是多少？

What is your rate per gig of data to review?

你们的托管费用是多少？

What is your rate to host?

然后我把我们所有的数据都填进去，就能算出我们内部操作到底省了多少钱。

And then I plug in all of our numbers and I can actually calculate out how much we've saved by doing it in house.

每次都是几万美元的节省。

It's tens of thousands of dollars, always.

有时候甚至高达几十万美元。

Sometimes hundreds of thousands of dollars.

这可是相当大的成本节约。

It's quite a cost savings.

这真是太惊人了。

That's pretty amazing.

这确实很惊人。

That's pretty amazing.

随着安全数据风险的增长，你们处于这一领域的前沿，表明未来可能会有越来越多的组织希望将这种做法变为常态。

And as security data risk grows, the fact that you're at the forefront of this is telling that there's probably gonna be more and more organizations where this is hopefully gonna become the norm here soon.

我认为是的。

I think so.

我认为是的。

I think so.

让我们谈谈如何优化内部流程。

Let's talk about just optimizing internal processes.

我们已经稍微讨论过第三方，但我想谈谈IT和法务部门之间的关系。

We've talked about the third parties a little bit, but I wanna talk about the relationship between IT and legal.

我经常把这看作一场风险接力赛，因为你们要多次交接棒。

And I often think of this as like a risk relay race, because you're handing off the baton multiple times.

我见过法务部门将IT人员嵌入法务团队中。

And I've seen legal departments embed IT within legal.

我见过法务部门与IT部门的对应团队合作，效果也很不错。

I've seen legal departments work with their counterparts in IT and that being effective as well.

你能跟我谈谈你是如何与IT部门建立这种合作关系，以及如何实现更自动化的流程吗？

Can you talk to me about how you've set up that relationship with IT and how you work to make a more automated workflow?

是的，我很喜欢这个问题。

Yeah, I love this question.

而且我实话实说，这不仅仅是IT和法务之间的交接。

And I'm gonna be honest, it's not just the handoff between IT and legal.

它可能是——我知道你可能特别想到电子取证，但更广泛地说，也可能是业务与法务之间，或任何共享服务与业务之间的交接。

It could be, and I know you're probably thinking specifically about eDiscovery, thinking more broadly, it could be the handoff between business and legal or any shared service and business.

自动化流程能带来多方面的好处。

Having an automated workflow does several things.

它让工作过程更加透明。

It provides transparency to the work.

是谁发送的？

Who sent it?

是哪一天？

On what day?

几点？

What time?

谁在执行这项工作？

Who's performing the work?

做了什么？

What was done?

花了多长时间？

How long did it take?

它提供了审计轨迹。

It provides an audit trail.

它表明你已尽到应有的注意义务。

It shows that you've done your due diligence.

它还能识别出趋势和风险。

It'll also identify trends and risks.

常见的主题有哪些？

What are common themes?

是否有需要修复的故障，比如某个流程？

Is something broken that needs to be fixed, such as a process?

某个领域是否需要更多的培训？

Is there more training needed in a particular area?

它有助于识别执行该项工作所需的工作量和资源。

It can help identify the workload and resources needed to perform that work.

这些信息、数据，再次强调，一切都归结为数据。

The information, the data, again, everything comes down to the data.

你从这个集成的自动化工作流中获得的内容，能整体上使业务更加顺畅高效。

You get from that integrated automated workflow creates a more smooth and efficient business all around.

我想我们已经讨论了很多关于变革的内容。

And I guess we've talked a lot about change.

我觉得我们还没怎么谈过现状。

I don't think we've talked really anything about like, as quo.

我过去二十年一直在做这件事，一直没有任何变化。

I've been doing this for the last twenty years and it stayed exactly the same.

我们正处于一个快速演变的领域。

We're in a very evolving space.

对于那些不太愿意接受变化的人，比如一些正在听的律师或法律助理，你如何向他们证明，这种不断演进并利用法律运营的操作纪律，实际上能为他们腾出更多时间来做高价值的战略性工作？

For those people that aren't as open to change, some of those lawyers listening, some of those paralegal maybe, how do you prove to them that this operational discipline of evolving and leveraging Legal Ops actually gives them more time for high value strategic work?

所以你可能以前听过我提到过，迈克，但一切都归结于数据。

So you may have heard me mention it before, Mike, but it all comes down to the data.

你必须有数据来支持这一点。

You have to have the data to back it up.

是的。

Yeah.

我的意思是，你必须有办法追踪你的数据，并且能够对它进行汇报。

I mean, you have to have a way to to track your data, and you have to be able to report on it.

你还必须具备将这些数据转化为有说服力故事的技能。

And you have to have the skill set to to take that data and turn it into a compelling story.

一个能展示运营纪律价值的案例。

One that shows the value of operational discipline.

没人愿意做低价值的工作。

No one wants to be doing low value work.

能够提供信息，展示如何取得更大的成果，这才是制胜关键。

Having information available to show how to have bigger wins is what wins the day.

这就是你说服他人的方法。

That's how you win people over.

你必须有这些数据，来证明你如何实现运营效率，让人员专注于更有战略意义的工作。

You have to have that data to show how you're going to create operational efficiency and let people focus on the more strategic.

这就是你向所有利益相关者展示的投资回报率演示。

That's an ROI presentation that you give to whoever the stakeholders are.

没错。

Exactly.

我再强调一下这一点，但我相信一定有人看了这个演示后，仍然认为我们目前的做法才是最好的。

And I'm just gonna just harp on this a little more, but I'm sure there's people that see that presentation and they still say, no, I still think the way that we're doing things works best.

你如何应对这样的人？

How do you overcome those people?

还是说，这本来就是一种情况，总会有一些反对者，但随着时间推移，他们会逐渐适应？

Or is it one of those things, there's always gonna be some naysayers, but over time they'll adapt.

没错。

Correct.

但你在展示数据时，采取一些策略性的方式，选择合适的对象，会事半功倍。

But be a little strategic about how you go about presenting the data and who you're presenting it to goes a long way.

我在这家公司已经工作了二十一年。

I've worked at my company for twenty one years now.

我知道谁是我的障碍，也知道我需要先拉拢哪些人，让他们帮我讲述这个故事，帮助我说服那些反对者。

I know who my obstacles are, And I know who I need to bring along the journey with me first to help me tell the story and help me maybe convince some of those naysayers.

有时候，是他们上面的人。

And sometimes it's the person above them.

有时候，是他们的同级。

Sometimes it's their peers.

有时候是他们下属的人。

Sometimes it's the people that work for them.

这真的取决于你想要推动的改变。

It just really depends on the change that you're trying to make.

但整个过程中都要让他们参与进来，这非常重要。

But bring them along on the journey the whole way is super important.

你不想在最后一刻才突然告诉某人，我现在需要你做决定。

You don't want to spring something on someone at the last minute and just say, I need you to make a decision now.

帮助他们看到整个局面，了解流程哪里出了问题，这个破损流程的成本是多少，并用这些数据提出解决方案。

Help them to see the whole picture, where the process is broken, what the cost of that broken process is, and present a way to fix it using that data.

如果他们仍然说不，那你可能还需要进行另一番对话。

If they're still saying no, then there might be another conversation you might need to have.

我喜欢你这么说，因为它与法律运营经理比其他人更常遇到的情况相关，或者至少在法务部门里是这样。

I love that you said that because it relates back to something legal operations managers get this more than anyone else, or at least maybe anyone else in the legal department.

我们之前请过一位嘉宾，她叫拉希达。

We had a guest on, her name was Rashida.