对话日期：致命的傲慢

他们对你家人做的事，你能活下来真是命大。

What they did to your family, you're lucky to make it out alive.

在Peacock平台播出。

Streaming on Peacock.

这些人肯定会来找我算账。

These men are going to come after me.

除掉他们，是我唯一的活路。

Taking them out is my only chance.

一枪爆了她的头。

Put a bullet in her head.

《绝命毒师》主创的另一部力作。

From the cocreator of Ozark.

看起来像是一家人在贩毒。

Looks like a family was running drugs.

用这种方式处决，对钥匙帮来说可不常见。

Execution style killing is Rare for the keys.

有没有线索知道他们背后是替谁做事？

Any leads on who they might have been running for?

贩毒集团杀了我的家人。

The cartel killed my family.

我要让他们全部付出代价。

I'm gonna kill them.

一个都不放过。

All of them.

《失踪人员》5月7日独家登陆Peacock。

MIA, streaming May 7 only on Peacock.

嗨。

Hey.

我是凯特·斯诺，NBC新闻主播，《The Drink》节目主持人。

It's Kate Snow, NBC News anchor and host of The Drink.

这个月，我的嘉宾是黛米·洛瓦托。

This month, Demi Lovato is my guest.

这位全球巨星告诉我，她现在是这辈子最开心的时候。

The global superstar tells me that she is the happiest she's ever been right now.

但走到这一步，可没那么简单。

But getting there, it wasn't simple.

黛米聊了聊自己年少时就闯荡好莱坞的经历，以及现在觉得当初是不是太早了。

Demi opens up about starting in Hollywood young and why she now thinks she may have started too soon.

她谈到了康复之路、新婚生活，还有她推出这本新食谱背后那份深藏心底的原因。

She talks about recovery, her new marriage, and the deeply personal reason behind her new cookbook.

《The Drink》一直讲的是登顶之路，这次对话特别坦诚，说透了这条路到底有多不容易。

The drink is always about the journey to the top, and this was an honest conversation about what that takes.

希望大家能去听一听，无论你在哪儿听播客，都别忘了关注《The Drink》。

Hope you'll listen and follow the drink wherever you get your podcasts.

大家好。

Hi, everybody.

我是莱斯特·霍尔特，欢迎收看《对话今日聚焦》。

I'm Lester Holt, and welcome to Talking Dateline.

今天我请到了基思·莫里森，聊聊他的那期节目《致命嚣张》。

Today, I'm joined by Keith Morrison to talk about his episode, Deadly Swagger.

这个案子始于太浩湖一户人家里的凶杀案，但很快变得复杂得多。

This is a case it starts with a brutal shooting inside a Lake Tahoe home and quickly becomes something much more complicated.

如果你还没看这期节目，我强烈推荐你去看看。

If you haven't watched the episode, I invite you to do so.

可以在《Dateline》播客频道或者Peacock平台上看。

Go over to, the Dateline podcast feed or on Peacock.

先在线看完，再回来和我们一起听后面的讨论。

You can catch it streaming, then come back over with us and, listen to the discussion that follows.

等你回来，我们会继续播放基思对前大联盟棒球选手、如今的罪犯丹·塞拉菲尼的深度访谈。

When you come back, we'll have much more of Keith's interview with former Major League Baseball player and now convicted killer, Dan Serafini.

之后，我们还会请这期节目的制片人来回答大家关于社交媒体的一些问题。

And later, we'll be joined by the producer of this episode to answer some of your questions about social media.

基思，很高兴你今天能来。

Keith, it's great to have you here.

能来这儿真好。

It's good to be here.

谢谢你，莱斯特。

Thank you, Lester.

关于这个标题《致命的傲慢》，我能不能顺便说两句？

Deadly Swagger, if I may, just to, go along on that for a minute.

这标题起得真绝。

That's an inspired title.

你知道吗，我们直到播出前几天才被通知标题，平时根本不会去想这事儿。

You know, they don't tell us what the titles are gonna be until just a few days before air, and we don't think of them.

我们有个特别厉害的人叫苏珊·努尔，这些标题大多是她想出来的。

It's, we have a brilliant person named Susan Null who comes up with most of these things.

但《致命的傲慢》这种词，我肯定想不出来。

But, Deadly Swagger, I wouldn't have thought of that.

不过呢

But, you know

你知道吗，这事儿在这一集开头几分钟就体现出来了。

You know, it becomes relevant in the first few minutes of this episode.

你一看就明白了，哦，原来这就是‘致命狂傲’。

You go, oh, that's the Deadly Swagger.

明白了。

Got it.

这就对了。

There you go.

是的。

Yeah.

给我们讲讲细节吧。

Give us give us the lowdown.

首先，这集的场景一下子就抓住了人。

First of all, the the setting for this grabs you right away.

太美了，太浩瀚的太浩湖风光。

The gorgeous pictures of Lake Tahoe.

你从来没去过那儿。

You've never been there.

那是世界上最美、最迷人的自然景观之一。

It is one of the great beauties, beautiful natural spots in the world.

不过你倒是说说，在那儿工作是什么感觉？这个故事又是怎么回事？

But but tell us about working there and and this story.

太浩湖这地方，有些区域住着特别漂亮、也特别贵的豪宅。

Well, Lake Tahoe is a place which has, some really lovely and very expensive homes, in in some areas of the, around the lake.

差不多所有房子都这样，尤其是我们故事发生的那个区域。

Pretty well all of them, but particularly in the area where our story occurs.

其中一栋房子里住着一对退休夫妇，加里·斯珀和温迪·伍德，他们这辈子干过不少有意思的事，这些经历后来还跟我们的故事扯上了关系。

And one of them, was a home occupied by, Gary Spohr and Wendy Wood, a retired couple who'd had long and interesting careers doing various things over the years, and that would actually play into our story to some degree.

他们家底厚实，据说身家大概有两千五百万美元。

And they had a lot of money, were said to be worth something in the neighborhood of $25,000,000.

温迪和加里就在家里，决定和家人一起出门。

And Wendy and Gary, were in their home, decided to go out with the family.

他们一出门，就有个蒙面入侵者溜进了房子，当时他们还在里面。

And as they go out, an intruder, a masked intruder comes into the house and is apparently there while they are there.

对，没错。

Well, yes.

女儿艾琳带着她和丹尼的两个孩子，下午来探望祖父母。

The daughter Erin, with their two children, hers and Danny's, arrived, to see the grandparents, in the afternoon.

他们出去划船了，就在他们划船的时候，丹尼·塞拉菲尼——你知道的，这算剧透了——独自进了屋。后来亚伦和孩子们、祖父母划船回来，一起吃了晚饭，之后亚伦和孩子们就走了。

They went out boating, and while they were out boating, Danny Serafini, as you know, this is a spoiler obviously, but Danny Serafini goes inside, Aaron and the kids and the grandparents come back from their boating trip, they have dinner together, then Aaron and the kids leave.

过了几分钟，凶手从楼梯上来了。

There's a pause for a few minutes, and then up the stairs comes the shooter.

他一上来就朝加里的后脑勺开了一枪。

Immediately shoots Gary in the back of the head.

当场就没了。

He's dead.

他又想杀温迪，但没成功。

Tries to shoot Wendy, but she isn't killed.

她伤得很重，最后躲进了浴室。

She was very badly injured, wound up in a bathroom.

凶手很快就离开了房子。

The shooter leaves the house quickly.

她一个人在浴室里拨打了911。

She's left in the bathroom calling 911.

他们用直升机把她送到了医院，最终救回了她的命。

They fly her to a hospital by helicopter, and they managed to save her life.

然后，他们自然都在想，她能不能说出袭击者是谁。

And then, of course, they're wondering whether she can tell them who attacked them.

但因为她脑部伤得太重，根本说不出话来。

And, because she had such terrible brain injuries, she wasn't able to tell them.

基思，这案子一开始是不是嫌疑人太多了？

Keith, was this a case that simply had too many suspects at first?

当时嫌疑人确实不少。

It had a lot of suspects.

是的。

Yes.

他们根本搞不清到底是谁干的。

And they really didn't know who they were dealing with.

尤其是温迪，是个特别爱打官司的女人。

Wendy, in particular, was a litigious woman.

她跟人闹过纠纷，打过官司，差不多有二十二起。

She had had disputes and lawsuits, something like 22 lawsuits.

她跟一个邻居闹过矛盾，那是个渔民，平时在湖里撒小网捞小鱼当鱼饵，她就跑去把网里的小鱼全捞出来扔掉。

There was a she had a dispute with a local, neighbor who was a fisherman who put out his, little nets to catch, the minnows for for bait, and she would go out and lift the minnows out of the lake and throw them away.

她总是跟人过不去，到处惹麻烦。

And it it was a it was a situation where she was always antagonizing somebody.

加里，也就是她丈夫，过去的事儿没留下任何官方记录，但调查人员都听说过，他以前卷过毒品生意，还被调查过——对了，他们有两个女儿。

Gary, the husband, had a past which isn't in any official record, but the investigators who worked on this case certainly heard about a past involved in some drug business where, there was an investigation, and remember there are two daughters.

其中一个女儿的丈夫叫丹·塞拉菲尼，最后警方重点怀疑的就是他。

One of them had Dan Serafini was her husband, the person they eventually zeroed in on.

于是警方挨个核实他们的不在场证明，结果所有人都有不在场证据，包括那个丹尼·塞拉菲尼也不例外。

So they tracked down all of their alibis, and and, you know, everybody alibied out, including Danny Serafini.

我本来还寄希望于那段监控录像能直接帮警方锁定凶手，不过这就刚好引出了我们这期节目的名字《致命趾高气扬》。为什么那家人没看清入侵者的脸？那个人的走路姿势很有特点，你和大家聊聊，随着案件调查深入，这个细节是怎么变成关键线索的。

And I know there was great hope that that video would have taken them right to the killer, but this gets us to the title of this program, Deadly Swagger, Why They Don't See the Face of this intruder, there is something about the walk, and and tell us about how that becomes critical as as this case wears on.

最开始警方完全摸不清这个人是谁。

Well, at first, they had no idea who this was.

那个人偷偷摸进了他们家。

This person, they they he he came out to the house.

他从家里出来了。

He left the house.

有人看到他沿着湖边走，但完全没法确认这个人是不是他。

They saw him walk alongside the lake, but there was just no way to tell who it was.

后来他们就开始比对每个人的步态，调查人员发现，这个人从人行道往车库那边走的样子，半走半跑的，跟棒球运动员一局结束后离开投手丘的姿态特别像。

And they began to compare the way people walk, and and the investigators noticed that the way he was kind of half walking, half jogging from the sidewalk up toward the garage looked a lot the way, you know, a baseball player would run from the mound off the off at at the end of an inning.

就跟棒球运动员在中场等比赛开始时站在外野的那种状态一模一样。

Looked the way a a baseball player would go on, you know, stand out in center field as he was waiting for play to begin.

那种走路方式，不是快跑，也不是慢走，就是轻轻松松地小跑过去，还带着点特有的派头。

That kind of just a kind of a gentle jog to get to the place, and it had a kind of a swagger to it.

丹尼·塞拉菲尼以前是个棒球运动员。

Danny Serafini was an ex baseball player.

他是个四处打球的投手。

He was a journeyman pitcher.

他多年在大联盟好几个球队待过，那走路的样子确实很像他，但一直没法证明他就是来这儿作案的，直到他们找到了萨曼莎。

He played for several teams around the Major Leagues for years, and it just seemed like maybe that walk was the one, but there was no way to prove that he came into town to commit this act, until they found Samantha.

与此同时，温迪的记忆开始慢慢恢复了。

In the meantime, Wendy's memory is starting to slowly come back.

有没有那么一刻，她突然成了这个案子的关键证人？

Was there a a moment when suddenly she became a star witness in this?

其实也不是某个具体的瞬间。

It it it wasn't really an moment.

是她后来终于说：‘我想起来了，我看见他了，穿着连帽衫的丹尼，正朝我们开枪。’然后她就把这些告诉了警方。

It was when she eventually said, you know, now I see him, I see Danny in a hoodie, Danny in a hoodie is shooting us, and she told the authorities that.

他们本来满怀希望，觉得能用上这些信息，能让她当证人，可她却自杀了。

They had great hope, I think, that they could use that information, they could use her as a witness, but then, she took her own life.

是啊。

Yeah.

咱们要是能顺道拐一下侧路就好了。

Just taking a side ramp here if we can.

你在恢复记忆这方面做了不少研究吧。

You've done a lot of work in this area of, recovered memories.

这事儿可太棘手了。

It's a tricky Very one,

确实棘手。

tricky.

说真的，根据我这些年看到的研究，几乎所有证据都表明，恢复的记忆很多时候靠不住。

And the fact is, I mean, all evidence suggests, based on the research that I've been hearing about over the years, recovered memories are not to be trusted a lot of the time.

我们的大脑会自己编故事。

Our brains invent things.

我们都需要有记忆，都需要觉得自己的人生是有根基的，但有时候，我们对某些事的记忆特别真实、特别强烈，结果却发现根本不是真的——那只是个虚假的记忆。

We need to have memories, and we need to have a feel that we have a grounding in our lives, and we have to recall something very directly and intensely that that may turn out not to be true at all, that we have simply had a a false memory.

这种事其实比大多数人想的要常见得多。

That's much more common than I think most people realize.

那个‘黑蜡烛认罪’的案例，是你之前做过的吧？

The black candle confession was was, one that you had done.

在你试图理解这个故事、弄清它走向的时候，这个案例起了什么作用？

How did that figure as you tried to understand this story and where it was going?

‘黑蜡烛认罪’这个案例倒是可以拿来对比，只不过这次是个女人，过了二十多年后突然‘回忆’起来：她九岁那年，去朋友家过夜，半夜害怕或者饿了，从二楼下来，想走到客厅，结果听见动静，看见一个女人坐在餐桌旁，点着蜡烛，一边哭一边道歉，说她杀了人，还提了个名字——至少在她记忆里是这样。

The black candle confession is probably not a bad one to compare it to the but except in this case, it was a it was a memory supposedly recovered after a couple of decades by a woman who said when she was nine years old, she attended a sleepover party at a friend's house, and in the middle of the night, she got scared or hungry or something and walked down the stairs from the 2nd Floor toward the living room, and she heard something, and then she saw a woman sitting at the dining room table lighting candles and sobbing and apologetic for having killed a person, and a name was mentioned and at least in this woman's memory.

她吓得赶紧跑回楼上，钻进被窝睡觉，那时候她才九岁。

Went back up the stairs all frightened, went to bed, this nine year old.

可现在她三十岁了，突然‘想起’了这件事，就去报了警，而当时案子早就没人管了。

Well now when she's 30, she gets this memory from when she was nine, and she reports it to the police, and they had left the case.

那本来是个冷案，但警方一听，又重新开了案。

It was a cold case, obviously, but they they opened up the case.

他们找到了那个 supposedly 坐在桌边点着黑蜡烛、哭诉自己杀了人的女人。

They found the woman who supposedly was sitting at the table lighting a black candle and and sobbing about having killed somebody.

他们审问了她。

They questioned her.

她当然否认了，但陪审团还是判了她谋杀罪，直到今天她还在狱中，坚称自己跟这事毫无关系。

She denied it, you might expect, but she was convicted by a jury of murder, and she's still in prison to this day denying she had nothing to do with it.

那真的是个真实记忆吗？

Was that a real memory?

这是一位很靠谱的人，护士，备受尊敬的女性，她确实有这个记忆。但你知道，我们以前也做过关于儿童压抑记忆的报道，比如在麦卡马丁幼儿园案那会儿，还有其他类似案件。

This was a responsible person who had it, a nurse, a highly respected woman who had the memory, but you know we've also done stories about repressed memories of children who claimed that they had been abused by their parents back at the, this is years ago, around the time of the McMartin preschool case, and there were other cases.

我最早报道过的一起冤案，是一个叫约翰·斯托威尔的男人，被指控虐待儿子，证据就是他儿子的‘记忆’。后来经过其他调查发现，那记忆完全是假的，他最终被无罪释放了。

One of the first false convictions that I ever reported on was a man named John Stowell, was convicted of abusing his son, and the evidence that was used was his son's memory, and later on it was shown through other investigation that the memory was completely false, and so, you know, he was released from prison.

记忆这东西，靠不住。

But memories are iffy.

但记忆也可能是真的。

Memories can be true.

记忆常常并不真实，而且要分清哪个是真的、哪个是假的，对任何人来说都特别特别难。

Memories are often not true, and and it's very, very difficult for anybody to know for sure which is which.

在‘致命傲慢’这个案子中，我感觉检方很清楚，他们不能完全依赖温迪能提供的任何说法，他们得打造一个能经得起任何质疑的案子。

And in the case of Deadly Swagger, I got the impression that prosecutors knew they couldn't necessarily hang their hat on whatever she you know, Wendy would would be able to tell them that they had to have a case that would withstand any ambiguity.

没错。

Exactly.

所以，就算他们让她上庭，她真说出了‘我现在能看见我女婿穿着连帽衫走进家门，开枪打死了我丈夫，还朝我开枪’这样的话——

And so even if they were able to put her on the stand and she said, you know, I now know I can I can see my son-in-law coming in the house with his hoodie on, firing a shot that killed my husband and firing shots at me?

我能看见他。

I can see him.

这证据听起来确实很有力，但也许没那么强，因为她还提到了那些其他人。

It would have been powerful evidence, but, but maybe not as powerful as if she had not talked about those other people as well.

我想问问你关于这个案子的主侦探。

Let me ask you about the lead detective in this case.

我一时想不起来，有哪个侦探会像这位一样投入这么多个人情感。

I don't recall off the top of my head a detective becoming as emotionally involved as this detective was.

他不仅想破案，还想给这个家庭一个交代。

He wanted to solve this case, but he wanted to answer the questions for this family as well.

你能说说他这个人吗？

Talk a little bit about him if you would.

是啊，他确实。

Well, he yes.

他完全投入到这个案子中了。

He he was certainly invested in this story, in this case.

他为此花了很长时间。

He worked on it a long time.

这事儿几乎占满了他的整个人生。

It was it it really took over his life.

要是这事儿发生在侦探小说里，主角早就被案子折磨得不成人样了，这种话你听得多了。

You know, if if if if this was one of those detective novels that would be eating him alive, you'd hear that a lot.

采访过程中，他好几次红了眼眶，因为他跟案子贴得太近，跟这家人，尤其是温迪，也走得特别近，他经常跟温迪聊天。

He teared up a number of times during the course of the interview because he got so close to the case and because he got so close to the family and particularly Wendy, and he talked to Wendy often.

他跟温迪特别亲近，得知温迪自杀的消息，是接到她女儿阿德里安的电话，对方说：我妈妈自杀了，这都是你的错。

He felt very close to Wendy, And the way he found out that Wendy took her life was he got a telephone call from Adrian, the daughter, who said, my mother has killed herself and it's your fault.

他跟我提起这事的时候，当场就崩溃了。

He told me about that and he broke down.

他真的，真的把这事当成自己的责任。

He really, really took that personally.

后来定罪了，阿德里安又回来向他道谢，但他早就深深卷入了这个案子，莱斯特，这种事你见得多了。

And eventually Adrian, when the conviction occurred, Adrian came back and thanked him for his work, but he he became very, very deeply involved in this story, and it it is something you see this, Lester.

调查员、侦探们常被人说成铁面无情，可实际上，他们往往是这辈子你遇见过最富有同情心的人，很多时候，他们都会对案子产生强烈的情感投入。

Investigators, detectives are are often you know, they get a reputation for being hardboiled and hard nosed, etcetera, but they tend to be some of the most caring people you ever meet in your life, and they do become emotionally invested in their cases often.

一旦走错路，或者第一次没办妥，他们往往痛不欲生。

And if they take a wrong turn or don't get it right the first time, they're often grief stricken.

我们回来后，会继续听基思对丹·塞拉菲尼的采访。

When we come back, are going to hear more from Keith's interview with Dan Serafini.

他当时是个年轻的海军陆战队员。

He was a young marine.

她根本不在乎那些规矩。

She didn't care about convention.

他们一起过上了日子。

They made a life together.

后来有一天晚上，那名海军去世了。

Then one night, the marine marine died.

接下来，死亡调查竟出现了惊人、意外又离奇的转折。

And then the death investigation took a wild, unexpected, and utterly bizarre turn.

我是乔什·班克维茨，欢迎收听《疑点追踪》，这是《Dateline》全新推出的播客。

I'm Josh Bankiewicz, and this is Trace of Suspicion, an all new podcast from Dateline.

现在就去你常用的播客平台，收听《疑点追踪》全部剧集吧。

Listen to all episodes of Trace of Suspicion now wherever you get your podcasts.

嘿，各位。

Hey, guys.

我是威利·盖斯特，提醒大家别忘了收听《周日访谈》播客。

Willie Geist here reminding you to check out the Sunday sit down podcast.

本周的节目里，我和全球超火的乐队——蒙福之子乐团的成员们聊了聊，我们聊了他们刚刚拿下排行榜冠军的新专辑《Prizefighter》，还有他们那首让人忍不住跟着踩节拍的抓耳金曲是如何一步步打磨出来的。

On this week's episode, I sit down with one of the biggest bands in the world, Mumford and Sons, as we get the boys together to talk about their new number one album, Prizefighter, and the evolution of that irresistible foot stomping sound.

你在任何播客下载平台都能免费收听我们的对话内容。

You can get our conversation for free wherever you download your podcasts.

不如从Start Today这款应用开启你的健康之旅吧。

Let's kick start your wellness journey with the Start Today app.

里面有各类健身课程、饮食

Workouts, meal

各种定制计划，帮你快速达成更健康的生活目标。

plans, it's your fast track to a healthier you.

现在Xfinity会员专属活动期间，订阅年度套餐还能独享五折优惠。

And now during the Xfinity member celebration, members can get an exclusive 50% off an annual subscription.

赶快前往xfinity.com/membership了解详情。

Head to xfinity.com/membership to learn more.

Xfinity，你的智家首选。

Xfinity.

你想想看。

Imagine that.

订阅会自动每年续费，价格为65.99美元，外加税费，直到你主动取消为止。

Subscription automatically renews each year at $65.99 plus taxes and fees until canceled.

优惠截止日期为2026年5月20日。

Offer ends 05/20/2026.

价格可能有所调整。

Price is subject to change.

详情及完整条款请访问today.com/xfinity。

Visit today.com/xfinity for full offer terms and details.

我还想问问你关于他们的女儿艾琳的事。

I also wanna ask you about Erin, the couple's daughter.

她显然是这个故事里的关键人物，但有没有怀疑过她？

She obviously is a large part of this story, but was she ever a suspect?

是的。

Yeah.

但她最后没被起诉。

She was never charged.

我也不太清楚当时离起诉她到底有多近。

I'm not sure how close it ever came, to her being charged.

我只是觉得，负责调查的人员都觉得整件事的时间线衔接得太巧了，像安排好的一样，这点很耐人寻味。

I just think it was, the the people doing the investigating found it very interesting that there was a kind of a ballet that occurred here, a sequence of events.

你想啊，丹尼从沙漠开车过来，亚伦带着孩子去见祖父母，大家都上船出门了，家里就空了，正好给了他潜进去埋伏的机会。之后这拨人回来吃完晚饭都走了，刚巧他们一走，凶案就发生了。

So, you know, Danny drives in from the desert, Aaron brings the kids in to see the grandparents, they go out on the boat, the house is empty, there's a way for him to get inside and wait, and then they come back and have dinner and leave, and after they leave conveniently the murder occurs.

那艾琳会不会和这个案子有什么牵扯呢？

Was Erin involved in that in some way?

当时警方已经尽了最大力气调查这条线索，最后也没能证实她涉案，但明面上，警方确实曾经把她列为怀疑对象。

You know, they investigated that as much as they could, and they did not come to a conclusion that she was involved, but, you know, on the face of it, were they were interested.

那艾琳一直对父母的事立场坚定，你觉得怎么解释她这种矛盾的状态呢？

And when you look at Erin staying loyal, what did you think about that explains the differences?

她到底是出于忠诚、自欺欺人、恐惧，还是爱才这样的？

Is it loyalty, denial, fear, love?

那到底是什么？

What was it?

我特别想跟两个女儿都聊聊。

I wanted very much to talk to both of the daughters.

当时我觉得我们有机会能采访埃琳。

And we you know, I thought we were going to have a chance to interview Erin.

她确实在考虑这件事。

She was considering it.

后来我采访了丹尼。

Then I I did an interview with Danny.

采访完之后，我觉得他跟亚伦沟通过，觉得我对他有点太严厉了。

And afterwards, I think he talked to Aaron and felt that I was a little too rough on him.

不过我也挺想多了解下这些问题的。

But, I'd like to know more about those questions, as well.

咱们聊聊他在那次采访里提到的塞拉菲尼吧。

Let's talk about Serafini in that interview.

当然了。

Yeah, sure.

我听别人说过，他身上有种趾高气扬、目中无人的劲儿。

I'd heard other people say that he had, there was a kind of a swagger and arrogance about him.

所以《致命傲慢》这个标题，大概挺贴切的。

That's why Deadly Swagger is probably a good title for this episode.

他那种傲慢，不光体现在走路姿势上，更体现在态度里。

There was a swagger, not just in the way he walked, but in his attitude.

他这个人本来就挺自负的，就算蹲在牢房里，等着进监狱，采访的时候也火气冲天。

He was an arrogant guy and even in a jail cell waiting to go to prison, he was an angry interview.

只要别人不信他，或者我看起来有点怀疑他，他就特别来气。

He you people wouldn't believe him or if I seem to indicate I wasn't believing him, he was that made him pretty mad.

有一回他差点撂挑子走人，我就跟他说：‘老兄，我得问些尖锐的问题，不然我们这采访还有啥意义？’

He threatened to leave the interview at one point, and I said, well, you know, I gotta ask you tough questions that otherwise, why are we here?

后来他还是留了下来，把问题都答了，不过走的时候一脸不爽，还嘟嘟囔囔的……

And, so he came around and he stayed and he answered the questions, but he wasn't a happy camper when he left and he sort

你刚才提到这一点，我们得强调一下。

of You made the point we should point out here.

你的时间是有限的。

You had a limited amount of time.

通常这种采访能给一小时，最多一个半小时。

A lot of times these things are, you know, we get an hour, hour and half.

他们只给了我们半小时做采访。

They'd given us a half an hour for the interview.

半小时到了，狱警说：再加几分钟也没关系。

The end of a half an hour, the, the jailer said, well, another couple of minutes would be okay.

我们最后聊了将近四十分钟，听起来好像挺久，但其实根本不够——你想深入挖掘，问题多得是，还得摸清他的性格、态度、人际关系、背景，这些全对讲好这个故事至关重要。

And I think we went a total of close to forty minutes, but that's and it sounds like a lot, but it really isn't, because you want to develop there's so many questions to ask and you want to develop some idea of character and of attitude and of, the way relationships developed and what the background is and all kinds of things like that that would be very helpful for us to understand the story and to be able to tell it properly.

所以四十分钟其实特别短。

So forty minutes is a very small amount of time.

比如那次和主侦办警官的采访，我们聊了整整五个小时。

That interview with the with the main detective, for example, we talked for five hours.

这是有史以来最长的采访之一，但你得把所有细节都挖出来。

It's one of the longest interviews ever, but you wanna get all the details.

当你坐下来面对塞拉菲尼的时候，你怎么准备这种很可能充满对抗、但又必须问出关键问题的采访？

When you when you sat down with Serafini, how do you prepare for an interview like that where you know it's likely gonna be competitive, but there are serious questions that need

把问题问清楚。

to be answered?

我真不知道该怎么搞，估计我每次都搞砸了。

You just I never know how to do it, and I probably do it wrong all the time.

但说到丹·塞拉菲尼，我知道有些事非问不可。

But in in the case of Dan Serafini, I figured there were there were some issues that really needed to be covered.

他们告诉我们只有半小时。

We were told we had a half an hour.

我得确保把那些关键问题的答案问到手。

I wanted to be sure I get got the answers to some of the questions.

我破天荒地把问题写在纸上——这事儿我平时从不干——然后照着问。他一听就火了，之后我们就只能即兴发挥了。

I wrote them down on a piece of paper, which is probably a wise thing to do that I never usually do, and started asking those questions and he got mad, and then we kind of extemporized after that.

基思·莫里森可不靠纸笔那套。

Keith Morrison, not a paper and pencil guy.

明白了。

Okay.

记下了。

Noted that.

每个人都有自己的风格。

Everyone's got their own style.

是啊。

Yeah.

我们这儿还有一些没播出来的采访额外录音，是你跟丹聊他申请重审那段。

Now we do have some extra sound, from that interview you did that that did not make it into the broadcast where you speak to Dan about his attempt to get a new trial.

来，听听看。

Here it is.

你当时真觉得能成功申请到重审吗？

Did you think you were actually going to get a a new trial when you tried to?

是的。

Yeah.

我当时太天真了。

I was pretty naive about it.

我觉得我理应获得重审，尤其是听到陪审团在电视上说那些话之后。

I thought I deserved a new trial, especially after what the jury said on television.

你打电话时说的是什么？

What got in your call?

抱歉，你说什么？

I'm sorry?

你对陪审团说的话哪里不满意？

What didn't you like about what the jury said?

嗯，

Well,

首先，陪审员们说，如果不是塞拉菲尼干的，那还能是谁呢？

the jurors, first of all, said that, well, if it wasn't mister Serafini, who else could it be?

这在我看来就是合理的怀疑。

That sounds like reasonable doubt to me.

还有个陪审员说，我们也不确定是不是塞拉菲尼干的，但万一真是他，我们得确保他不会再出去作案——这在我看来也是合理的怀疑。

And then another juror says, well we don't know if it's Mister Serafini for sure but in case it is we want to make sure he doesn't go out do it again that sounds like reasonable doubt to me.

另一个陪审员说，全凭那双鞋，塞拉菲尼在酒店穿的鞋跟嫌疑人穿的鞋匹配。对。

Another juror says all it was the shoes, the shoes that mister Serafini was wearing at the hotel matches the suspect's shoes that you he or she was wearing Uh-huh.

可是在周六，根本不是那双。

On Saturday, and they weren't.

完全相反，我们已经证明了根本不是。

They were the complete opposite, and we proved that they weren't.

我在酒店穿的是拖鞋，可塔霍湖那个嫌疑人穿的是阿迪达斯跑鞋，连衣服都不一样。

I was wearing house slippers at the hotel, and then the suspect in Tahoe is wearing Adidas running shoes, not even clothes.

你要是拿这三个陪审员的说法，就判我四个终身监禁，你简直是在逗我吧。

And if you take those three jurors examples and then you put somebody away for four life sentences for that, You've gotta be effing joking me.

这太离谱了。

That's horrible.

所以你能感受到他对陪审团、对审判结果的态度。

So you get an you get an idea of, his attitude toward the jury and toward what happened to him in the trial.

听起来他根本就想再开一次庭，让你当陪审员。

Sounds like he was prepared to try the case over again with with you as the juror.

他巴不得能这么做，也特别想亲自说说自己的看法。

He he would love to have done so, and would have loved to have his own say.

我觉得他最初的律师觉得让他上庭太冒险，毕竟他容易跟人顶撞——你从他当时的表现就能看出来，他其实一直在憋着，因为之前我们刚吵过一架，他才勉强冷静下来，但那种对抗的劲儿还是藏不住。

I think his initial attorneys felt it wise to keep him off the stand because he could be combative as you could sort of see evidence of you he was holding himself back at that point because we'd already had her a little tiff and he was kind of calmed down, but you can see that of combative attitude of his.

这案子是不是快失控了？

Did this case feel like it was, on the verge of running off the the rail?

是啊，他就是死活不信陪审团会判他有罪。

It was, he simply would not accept that a jury would convict him.

这其实也反映出他的心态——‘你为啥不信我？’

And, again, that speaks to that sort of attitude, that you why wouldn't you believe me?

你必须信我，你凭什么不信我？我气的就是这个。

You must believe me, and and I'm angry that you haven't believed me.

所以他要求重审，声称他的律师——至少是后来那位——说他原来的律师没尽到责，该问的问题没问，该传的证人也没找来，那些证人本来能帮他洗清嫌疑的。

And so he he, you know, demanded a new trial, claimed that his lawyers, or his new lawyer at least, claimed that the lawyers he had at trial didn't serve him properly, didn't ask enough questions, didn't bring in the witnesses that might have cleared him.

所以他们有机会在法官面前陈述观点，甚至还请了一两个证人出庭。

So they had their chance to make their arguments before a judge, and they even presented, a witness or two.

但那些证人说的话，全被检察官一一驳倒了。

But then those witnesses told stories that were knocked down by the prosecutor.

其中一个说，案发当天她看见丹·塞拉菲尼在几英里外的地方。

One of them said she saw Dan Serafini the day of the shooting miles away.

但实际上，她那天根本没见到他。

And in fact, she didn't see him that day.

她是在那之后的第二天才见到他的。

She saw him the day after that.

这一番努力非但没帮上忙，法官最后干脆直接驳回了。

He really wasn't helped, by that effort, and the judge eventually said, no.

你别想重审。

You don't get a new trial.

你完了。

You're done.

另外提一句，这事最后也没闹多大，但确实有人对陪审团提出了疑问。

And another side note, it didn't end up becoming a huge issue, but there were questions about the jury.

陪审团自己比对了视频。

The jury compared videos.

他们截了那个从车旁跑上车道、冲进房子的人的画面，又拿去跟前一天晚上酒店监控里拍到的影像做了对比。

They, took screenshots of, the person who was running from the car up the driveway to the house, and they compared it with screenshots they took from a security camera video at the hotel the night before.

记得吧，那天晚上他跟萨曼莎住在几英里外的酒店。

Remember that he stayed with Samantha that night in a hotel miles away.

你说，陪审团真该干这种事吗？

So they really you know, is a jury supposed to do that sort of thing?

简直是自个儿加码，跑去当侦探了。

Kind of went the extra mile to to do some investigating of their own.

丹·塞拉菲尼和他律师说，这根本不该发生，属于司法失误，理应直接撤销案件。

Dan Serafini and his attorney claimed, no, they were not supposed to do that, and that was that was a judicial error that that should have had the case thrown out.

对于这个案子，你最后还有什么想法吗？

Do you have any final thoughts about this this case?

咱们之前聊过，这个案子对负责的侦探影响有多深。

You know, we talked about how deeply it struck the detective on the case.

你和整个团队为这个故事投入了无数个小时、天数，甚至好几个星期。

You and the rest of the team put a lot of hours and and days and weeks into story.

最后，这件事让你有了什么感受？

Where did it leave you?

人的生活太复杂了，不管一个人表面看起来多光鲜、多成功，背后很可能藏着一段谁都不想被外人知道的故事，既让人着迷，又让人心酸。

Well, people's lives are very complicated, and, and and no matter how shiny and successful a person's, existence may appear to be, it's quite it's quite likely that there's a whole story behind it, which is both fascinating and potentially something that that person would rather you didn't know about.

我不确定这么说你能不能懂，但这就是另一个故事——一对看似极其成功的夫妻，背后的故事却怎么也翻不过去。

I don't know if that makes any sense or not, but it was just here's another story of a of a of an apparently highly successful couple with a backstory that wouldn't quit.

广告回来后，我们会回答一些大家在社交媒体上问我们的问题。

After our break, we'll come back and take some of the questions we've had about this episode on social media.

一天快结束了，想了解最新动态？来听《真相速递》，NBC新闻全新播客，我是主持人贾斯敏·维索吉安。

As the day wraps up, get the scoop on what's been happening with here's the scoop, a new podcast from NBC News with me, your host, Jasmine Visougian.

我们会深入剖析当天的重磅新闻，由NBC新闻的资深记者为您解读。

We'll take a deep dive into the day's top stories with NBC News' trusted journalists.

全新的视角，犀利又走心，信息量满满，带您更贴近那些正在塑造世界的头条和热议。

It's a fresh take that's sharp, thoughtful, and it's informative, bringing you closer to the headlines and conversations that are shaping our world.

从头版新闻到时代脉搏。

From the front page, the zeitgeist.

这里是NBC新闻的独家快报。

Here's the scoop from NBC News.

每天都在SiriusXM收听。

Listen daily on SiriusXM.

订阅NBC新闻，获取更优质的内容。

Get the best of NBC News with a subscription.

广告更少，内容更深，还有独家专供。

Fewer ads, deeper access, and exclusive content.

现在正值Xfinity会员庆典期间，会员可享年度订阅五折优惠。

And now during the Xfinity member celebration, members can get an exclusive 50% off an annual subscription.

前往 xfinity.com/membership 了解更多信息。

Head to xfinity.com/membership to learn more.

Xfinity。

Xfinity.

想想看吧。

Imagine that.

订阅将自动每年续费65.99美元，外加税费，直到你主动取消。

Subscription automatically renews each year at $65.99 plus taxes and fees until canceled.

优惠截止日期为2026年5月20日。

Offer ends 05/20/2026.

价格可能有所调整。

Price is subject to change.

更多优惠详情请访问 nbcnews.com/xfinity。

Visit nbcnews.com/xfinity for full offer terms and details.

莱斯特本来要出差，不过现在由杰西卡·德·维拉来回答大家在社交媒体上的提问和评论。要说谁最懂这个故事，那非杰西卡莫属了，她对来龙去脉了如指掌。

Well, Lester had to take a flight, but, Jessica de Vera is here to answer some of your questions and comments from social media, and there is no finer person to answer those questions than Jessica, who knows this story inside out and backwards and forwards.

嗨，杰西。

Hi, Jess.

嗨，基思。

Hi, Keith.

你最近怎么样？

How are you?

好多人都在说这期节目特别有意思，所以嘛，干得漂亮。

We had a whole lot of people talking about how interesting the episode was, so, you know, well done.

这故事真的太引人入胜了。

But it's just a fascinating story.

是啊。

Yeah.

那当然。

That's for sure.

这一期可真是跌宕起伏，一波三折。

This one had lots, you know, lots of twists and turns.

情节一波三折啊。

Lots of twists and turns.

没错。

Yeah.

这故事绝对能单独做个播客。

We could probably do a podcast on this one for sure.

你当时在《今日洞察》制作组，节目播出时，你讲过一个关于这集的有趣故事。

You were in the Dateline producer account when the when the show was on the air, and you told kind of an interesting story about this episode.

你能说说你听到的那些细节吗？当时你听出了什么？

Can you tell me what you heard about listening closely and what was Yeah.

在放那个

Playing in the

有意思的是，我第一次听到那个09:11的通话录音，是在法庭上。

So it was interesting because I first heard the 09:11 call played in court.

那是个老法院，法庭里声音有点模糊，听不太清。

It's an old courthouse, so it's kind of hard to hear inside that courtroom.

窗户都开着，我坐的地方根本听不清细节。

Windows are open and where I was sitting, was difficult to really listen to all the details.

但我记得检察官说，当你们给陪审团放这段9点11分的通话时，你们会听到背景里电视在响，还有个女人在呻吟、喘不上气。

But I remember prosecutor pointing out that when you to the jurors, when you listen to this 09:11 call, you're gonna be able to hear TV playing in the background and a woman moaning and gasping for air.

声音很微弱，但确实能听见。

So you can hear that very faintly.

后来我们拿到了法庭的证据，准备剪辑和写稿的时候，我戴上了降噪耳机仔细听。

But when we finally got the exhibits from court and we're prepping to edit and write, you know, I had my noise canceling headset

嗯。

on

一边听一边琢磨。

and listening in.

播放的时候，我突然觉得那个声音特别耳熟。

And as it's playing, you know, I can hear a voice that sounded very familiar.

而且很明显，电视里放的就是《今日观察》的某一集。

And you can hear that it's definitely a Dateline episode playing on the TV.

哦，但他们没有。

Oh, but they aren't.

对。

Yeah.

我们团队稍微查了一下，发现是丹尼斯·墨菲在2012年左右做的那一集，叫《血写的真相》。

Our team did a little bit of digging around, and it was an episode titled Written in Blood that Dennis Murphy did, I believe it was like back in 2012.

很显然，案发当晚播的是这集的重播。

And clearly, it was a rerun that was playing that night of the shooting.

重播没错，但这标题也太应景了——毕竟刚在太浩湖边那栋大房子里出了那样的事。

A rerun, but also an appropriate title given what had just occurred in that lovely big house by Lake Tahoe.

天哪。

Good lord.

是啊。

Yeah.

真是难以置信。

Pretty unbelievable.

我们有很多问题。

Well, we have lots of questions.

首先，我们来看珍妮特·怀斯曼提的：他们不是说房子里外都有摄像头吗？

First of all, let's go to one from Janet Wiseman, who said, didn't they say cameras inside and outside the house?

狗叫了吗？

Did the dogs bark?

是的。

Yeah.

所以房子里外确实装了摄像头。

So there were there were cameras inside and out.

但我们能在法庭上看到、听到，以及后来被提供给我们的，只有正对着车道的那一个摄像头。

The only camera that we were able to listen to and watch in court and what they released to us was the camera that pointed directly into the driveway.

当那个戴面具的人出现的时候，根据我们所看到和接触到的证据，根本听不到狗叫。

So at the point in time where the masked person enters, we could not hear the barking from at least the evidence that was presented to us and that we had access to.

检察官向陪审团指出，家里有两只狗，其中一只曾经是埃琳和丹的。

Prosecutor pointed out to the jurors that one of the dogs there are two dogs inside the home and that one of the dogs at some point in time belonged to Erin and Dan.