布莱恩·阿姆斯特朗，Coinbase

《美国心灵的某种东西》——《美国心灵的溺爱》，我觉得是这本。

Something of the American Mind The Coddling of the American Mind, I think.

好的。

Okay.

他主要讲的是，在这些大学校园里，他们实际上在培养活动家。

He was talking he basically talks about how in these college campuses, there's like these they're training activists in these college campuses.

而现在，这种现象正蔓延到职场中。

And it's now spilling into the workforce.

他们认为自己的工作不是加入公司并推动其使命。

And they feel that their job is not to join a company and advance its mission.

他们觉得自己的职责是加入公司，揭露权力的真相，对这些更广泛的社会问题进行问责，并以活动家的身份推动公司变革。

They felt like their job was to join a company and hold it hold truth to power and hold it to account for these broader societal issues and actually reform the company as an activist.

我基本上开始起草这篇博客文章，说：我们在这里不会这么做。

I essentially started drafting this blog post, and I said, I don't we're not going to do that here.

你知道，我们不会成为一个只是盲目追随当下热门社会议题、发表一堆空洞的感性声明却从不采取实际行动的公司。

You know, like, we're not going to be a company that just tries to jump into whatever the current hot social issue is and make a bunch of feel good statements without actually doing anything.

我们已经有了一个重要的使命，那就是促进经济自由。

We already have an important mission, which is increasing economic freedom.

要对如此宏大的目标产生影响，需要数十年的努力。

And it takes decades of work to try to make an impact on something that big.

所以，让我们专注于我们认为在这个世界上重要的事情。

So let's stick to the thing that we think is important in the world.

在工作之外，人们可以做任何他们想做的事。

And outside of work, people can do whatever they want.

你可以去抗议。

You can go protest.

你可以是左派、右派，或者任何其他立场。

You can be left or right or whatever.

但在工作场所，我们不会搞政治。

But just inside the workplace, we're not going to be political.

我们只会专注于与我们的使命相关的事情，即加密货币和经济自由。

We're just going to focus unless it has to do with our mission, crypto and economic freedom.

那么在诉讼之类的事情上，我们会变得非常有政治立场且积极参与。

Then we'll be very political and engaging for litigation and things like that.

所以我知道这肯定会惹恼一些人。

So I knew it was going to piss some people off.

实际上，有些人在我发布之前看了初稿，他们说：不要发这个。

And I actually, some people, when they read the draft post before I sent it, they said, like, do not post this.

他们甚至恳求我不要发布。

They, like, begged me not to post it.

你公司内部的人？

People inside your company?

你发给了

You sent

其他创始人吗？

it to, like, other founders?

公司内部的人。

Inside the company.

好的。

Okay.

对。

Yeah.

你有没有发给Coinbase以外的人？

Did you send it to anybody outside Coinbase

我可能发给了董事会或类似的人。

for the I might have sent to the board or someone like that.

我不确定有没有发给外面的人。

I'm not sure if I sent it to anybody out.

我想我可能告诉了几个朋友我在做什么，但他们没读那篇文章。

I think I might have told a few of friends what I was up to, but they didn't read the post.

好的。

Okay.

对。

Yeah.

而且是的。

And yeah.

所以我还是决定照做。

And so I decided to do it anyway.

我知道人们正在感到不满。

And I knew people were getting upset.

所以我们发布了一个声明，说任何对这个新方向不满意的人。

And so we put out this we said, anybody who's not Okay with this new direction.

在公司内部未能就我们的发展方向达成一致。

Had failed to create alignment in the company about where we were going.

每当有人问我这个问题时，我都如履薄冰。

And I was kind of walking on eggshells around whenever people would ask me this.

所以人们对我们的立场感到困惑。

So people were confused about where we stood.

可能有一半的员工反对这个决定。

And there was maybe like it felt like 50% of the company was against this.

但我认为实际上，那只是一小部分非常吵闹的1%。

But I think in reality, was like one it's a very vocal 1% minority.

还有其他人对这个立场表示同情。

And there was other people who were sympathetic to that cause.

不管怎样，我们发布了那篇帖子，我说：任何不认同这个新方向的人，我们将提供一份丰厚的遣散费。

Anyway, we put out the post, I said, anybody who's not aligned with this new direction, we'll give you a good severance package.

你们可以填写这份表格，并在周五之前接受它之类的。

You can fill out this form and accept it by Friday or something.

公司有5%的人选择了离职补偿。

And 5% of the company took the exit package.

在此之前，我们还打过赌。

We were having bets beforehand.

我们也不确定。

We didn't know.

我们以为可能会有50%的员工辞职之类的。

We thought maybe 50% of the company would resign or something.

就像感觉是那样

Like, it felt like that

如果当时有50%的人辞职了，会发生什么？

was What would have happened at that time if 50% resigned?

我们会重新把它建起来。

We would have built it all back.

这其实是一个非常重要的观点，因为我认为创始人和公司管理者之间有很大的区别。

This is actually a very important point because I think that there's a big difference between a founder and a presider of a company.

对吧？

Right?

我知道我能重新把它建起来，因为我当初一个人用笔记本电脑把它从零做起。

Like, I know that I could build it back because I started it when it was just me on a laptop.

对吧？

Right?

我见证了它从10个人、100个人到1000个人的全过程。

And I was there when it was 10 people and 100 people and 1,000 people.

如果我们需要从2000人缩减到1000人，对我来说这根本不算什么。

And if we need to go from 2,000 to 1,000, that's not a big deal to me.

如果有必要，我可以重新回到一个人用笔记本电脑打拼的状态，对吧？

I could go back to being on my laptop again if I had to, right?

其实有一段李光耀的演讲非常精彩，是他发表的。

And there's actually there's this great Lee Kuan Yew speech that he gave.

他是新加坡的创始人。

He's the founder of Singapore.

我想他当时正在处理一场罢工，大概是空管人员或者航空公司之类的。

And I guess he was dealing with a strike that was happening, I think, from the air traffic controllers or the airline or something like that.

但如果你在谷歌上搜‘李光耀 铁血’，就能找到那段精彩的演讲。

But there's this great speech if you Google Lee Kuan Yew, iron in veins.

你知道我说的是哪一段吗？

You know which one I'm talking about?

他在演讲中说，每次听都让我毛骨悚然：我坐在他们对面，他们威胁要让航空公司停摆。

And he basically, he says, like, in this speech it kind of gives me chills every time where he's like, I sat across the table from them, and they were threatening to shut down the airline and everything.

他说，回去工作，否则我不会允许你们拖垮这个国家。

And he said, get back to work and or and like, I will not allow you to bring this country down.

如果你们不这么做，我准备好从头再来一遍了。

And if you don't do it, I'm prepared to rebuild it all from scratch again.

他说，任何统治新加坡的人，都要看着我，知道我血管里流的是铁。

And he said, anyone who rules Singapore, you know, has to look at me and know that I have iron in my veins.

我会从头再来一遍，对吧？

Like, I will rebuild it all from scratch, right?

于是我看了很多那样的视频。

And so I was watching videos like that.

我当时就想，这就是我作为领导者需要做的事。

And I was like, this is what I need to do as a leader.

这真的非常鼓舞人心。

Like, it was very inspiring.

所以，你必须在某些时刻挺身而出，说：我们要朝这个方向前进。

So there are moments like that that you have to stand up and say, we're going in this direction.

如果你不认同这一点，也没关系。

And if you don't if you're not on board with it, it's okay.

你可以离开。

You can leave.

但我们就要走这条路。

But we're going this way.

这才是领导力。

That that's leadership.

有两件有趣的事情在我刚才说的内容中浮现出来。

There's two interesting things that popped out in

你刚才说的那些。

what you just said.

我想谈谈长期规划。

I want to go to the long term.

再次强调，你有着长远的眼光。

Again, you have this long term orientation.

你在博客文章中多次提到，我们正试图真正地改变世界，这将需要

You mentioned multiple times in the blog post, you're like, we're trying to change literally change the world, that's going to

花费数十年的时间。

take multiple decades.

我想回到

I want go to

这一点上。

that one second.

但我喜欢你这样说。

But I like how you said it.

我当时很困惑。

Like, I was confused.

到底发生了什么？

Like, what is going on here?

所以当你感到困惑时，你的第一反应不是逃避，而是开始读书，开始与人交谈。

So you're not your first instinct when you're confused, you start reading books, you start talking to people.

你平时会怎么做来缓解这种困惑呢？

What do you do to try to to, like, to essentially alleviate the confusion?

因为你是

Because you're

哦，我不明白发生了什么。

like, oh, I don't know what's going on.

比如，我会去读乔纳森·海特的书。

I'm gonna read Jonathan Haidt's book, for example.

是的。

Yeah.

以上全部。

All the above.

我的意思是，我会读书，而书籍真的很棒。

I mean, I read books, and books are amazing.

我觉得有时候得读上八个小时，才能找到那一小段关键内容。

I think sometimes it can take reading like as you know, it's like read for eight hours to get to that one part.

哦，这才是关键见解。

Oh, that's the key insight.

实际上，如果你能联系到他们，尤其是这样，打电话会更快。

Actually calling people, I think, is faster if you have access to them, especially.

在我职业生涯早期，我没有这样的渠道。

Earlier in my career, I didn't have access.

但现在我觉得我能接触到更多人了。

But now I feel like I can get access to more people.

而且这通常只是一个捷径。

And it's often just a shortcut.

比如，如果你认识那个已经思考或研究这个问题十年的合适人选，他们几秒钟就能告诉你你需要知道的一切。

Like, if you know the right person to call who's been thinking about that or working on that for ten years, they can explain to you in thirty seconds what you need.

天哪。

Oh, my gosh.

当然，这就是关键所在。

Like, that's the connection, of course.

就像，是的，这正是我一直在做的。

Like, so, yeah, that's exactly what I do.

很多时候，我只是在追随自己的直觉。

And I just I'm following my instinct a lot of the time.

作为CEO，你的很多工作就是，你知道的，一天的时间可能会被排得满满当当，你只是在努力招聘合适的人、去和投资者沟通、参加产品评审之类的。

Like, a lot of your job as CEO is, you know, your day can just get infinitely scheduled, and you're just, like, trying to hire the right people and go talk to investors and build you know, go to product reviews and stuff.

但偶尔，当你觉得有什么不对劲时，你就得跟着感觉走。

But once in a while, you just need to follow your nose if you're like, something's bothering me.

你知道的？

You know?

我觉得你总是不断地吸收信息。

It's like, I bet you're kind of always ingesting information.

偶尔，你会突然觉得，这边有点不对劲。

And once in a while, you're just like, something feels really off over here.

比如，这个团队根本没方向，像艘没舵的船。

Like, this team doesn't this team is rudderless, like going in no direction.

或者我不信任这里发生的事情，比如那个政策问题。

Or I don't trust what's going on with over here, like, you know, in this policy thing.

你可以去深入调查，你知道的？

And you can just go digging, you know?

偶尔你会发现一些问题，从而带来很大的价值。

And occasionally, you find things, and you can add a lot of value.

当你说到‘跟着直觉走’，这是指直觉吗？

When you say follow your nose, is this intuition?

是的。

Yeah.

这是直觉。

It's intuition.

这是模式识别。

It's pattern matching.

很多时候，你只是在吸收信息，比如人们写的文档、Slack频道和报告。

Mean, lot of times, you're just absorbing information, like in documents people are writing up and Slack channels and reports.

很多信息其实只是被吸收着。

Like, a lot of information is just being ingested.

偶尔你会觉得，咦，这已经是第三次听到关于那件事的奇怪说法了。

And once in a while, you start to you're like, that's the third time I've heard something weird about that.

我得去深入查一查。

Like, I need to go dig into it.

我其实挺惊讶的。

I was actually surprised.

到目前为止，我为这个节目做的最喜爱的一次对话是和托比·卢克的。

One of my favorite conversations I've had so far for the show was with Toby Luque.

是的。

Yeah.

我和你在午餐时聊过他，我总说他是你最爱的创始人最喜爱的创始人。

Me me and you talked about him at lunch, and, like, I always say he's like your favorite founder's favorite founder.

就像

Like the

有很多人非常钦佩他的思维方式以及他打造公司的方式。

amount of people that really admire the way he thinks and the way he's building his company.

你可能会觉得，这位德国工程师肯定是完全数据驱动的。

And you would think like this German engineer, you know, is going be all data driven.

但他却一直在谈论可视化和积极肯定。

And like, he just talked about like visualization and like Affirmations.

积极肯定。

Affirmations.

是的，没错。

Yeah, exactly.

全靠直觉。

All intuition.

这其实令人惊讶。

It was actually surprising.

这是其中一项

It's one of the

关于这一点最引人入胜的地方

most fascinating things about this

对话。

conversation.

在创立Coinbase之前，你创办其他公司时，你认为自己有什么不同？

Explain the difference you thought about when you were starting the companies before Coinbase.

你从Coinbase一开始就有长期导向，但在那之前你创办的其他业务中却缺乏这种心态，是吗？

You had this long term orientation almost from the beginning of Coinbase, but you lacked that in the other businesses that you were starting before that?

我只是通过尝试足够多的项目——那些完全失败的或只是小有成功的项目——才意识到一切都很困难。

It was really just by trying enough projects that either didn't work at all or were base hits that I realized everything was difficult.

我认为我在大学期间和刚毕业时的心态是

I think so my mentality in college and coming out

大学毕业后，我知道我想

of college, I knew that I wanted to

成为一名企业家。

be an entrepreneur.

我一直在尝试不同的点子。

I was trying different ideas.

我的想法是，如果我能通过某种方式被动地每年赚到十万美元，那简直太棒了，因为我可以腾出所有时间。

My view was, Okay, if I can get something to be paying me, I don't know, dollars 100,000 a year passively, that would be incredible because I could somehow free up all my time.

然后我不确定自己能靠被动收入变得富有，之后再去打造别的东西。

And then I don't know what I'd be able to be passive income, wealthy, and I could then go build something else.

我不知道。

I don't know.

之后我其实并没有什么明确的计划。

I didn't really have a plan after that.

那是哪一年？

What year was this?

哦，我是说，这大概是我2005年毕业的时候。

Oh, I mean, this was like, graduated in 2005.

你当时在读蒂姆·费里斯的书吗？

Were you reading Tim Ferriss?

是的。

Yes.

蒂姆·费里斯对此有过很多讨论。

So Tim Ferriss had a big thing on this.

是的。

Yes.

就是《四小时工作周》那整套理念。

There was the four hour work week, like that whole thing.

我甚至在那之前就在考虑这个问题了，但《四小时工作周》确实起到了关键作用。

I was kind of thinking about it even before that, but the four hour work week was definitely that.

我在大学期间创办的第一家公司是家家教公司，因为我当时在大学里做家教来赚点外快。

The first company I really started in college was this tutoring company because I had been tutoring high school kids while I was in college to make extra money.

我在图书馆工作，时薪大概是七美元或八美元，具体数字我记不清了。

And working at the library, got paid I forget, it was $7 or $8 an hour.

但如果你做高中家教，一小时能赚六十美元。

But if you were tutoring high school kids, you could make $60 an hour.

我当时觉得这太疯狂了。

I was like, this is crazy.

所以我有一段时间在给孩子们做家教。

So I was tutoring kids for a while.

然后我意识到我可以把我的其他大学生和高中生匹配起来。

And then I realized I could match my other college students with other high school kids.

于是我开发了一个简单的网页应用，是一个家教匹配服务，叫University Tutor。

And so I built this simple web app, which was like a tutor finding, tutor matching service called University Tutor.

我基本上是在大学里和另一个朋友——我的室友——一起开发这个项目的。

And I was basically building this in college with another friend of mine, a roommate.

我并没有从第一性原理的角度去思考这个问题。

I didn't think about it from first principles.

我并不是特别热衷于家教或教育。

It wasn't like I wasn't particularly passionate about tutoring or education.

我只是想赚点被动收入，本质上是想把它规模化，对吧？

I was just trying to make some passive income, essentially, and scale it, right?

在那一刻，我根本想不到要退一步想想，你知道吗？

And so it would have never occurred to me at that moment to I didn't have the wherewithal to zoom out and say, you know what?

我们需要成为跨行星的物种。

We need to become an interplanetary species.

我应该去造火箭。

I should make rockets.

我当时就想，你在说什么呢？

Like I was like, what are you talking about?

我只是想从每小时60美元，变成让我的十个朋友也都找到工作。

Like, I'm just trying to make like, go from $60 an hour to, like, have 10 of my friends be hired by their get jobs, too.

于是我经历了那个过程。

So I went through that process.

家教公司有自己的小故事。

The tutoring company has its own little story.

大学毕业后，我还尝试了其他几个类似的想法。

And then I tried a couple of other ideas like that after college, too.

我有几处位于休斯顿的出租屋，当时正在翻新它们。

I had a couple of I got these rental houses in Houston, and I was, like, refurbishing them.

我想试着搞点小规模的房地产投资。

And I was trying to do build, like, a little real estate investment thing.

我当时做了很多事。

I was doing a bunch of stuff.

后来，我记得读过赛斯·戈丁写的一本书，叫《低谷》。

And at some point, I actually I remember I read this book by Seth Godin called The Dip.

我不知道你有没有看过，是的。

I don't know if you've ever seen that Yeah.

很久以前看过了。

Read it a long time ago.

是的。

Yeah.

其实这本书挺简单的。

It's actually, like, a pretty simple book.

我不知道现在再读这本书对我还有什么帮助。

I don't know if it would do anything for me today.

但当时我读到它的时候，这个观点非常有力量。

But at the time when I read it, it was a pretty powerful idea.

他基本上就是说，你知道，在初学者和你所在领域的顶尖水平——也就是前1%之间，存在着一个巨大的低谷。

And he he basically was just saying, you know, there's a big dip between being a beginner and and and, like, the top of your field where you make, you know, the top 1%.

大多数人会在中途放弃，因为一旦不再是新手，事情就变得不那么有趣了。

And, like, most people quit in the middle because it's not fun after you're a beginner.

就是所谓的上万小时法则，诸如此类的东西。

There's just, like, ten thousand hours and all these kind of things.

我记得当时在想，我真的想在十年、二十年后还做房地产吗？

And I remember thinking, do I really want to be doing real estate in, like, ten, twenty years?

我当时想，不想。

I was like, no.

我对教育真的有那么在乎吗？

Do I be do I care enough about education?

或者你知道吗？

Or you know?

我当时想，我觉得也不是。

I was like, I don't think that either.

所以我真的拿了一张纸在写。

So I literally had a piece of paper I was writing.

有哪些事情是我足够热爱的，以至于即使看不到或只有很少的成功，我也会坚持二十年？

What are the things I am passionate enough about where I would do it for the next twenty years, even if I saw little or no success?

我唯一能想到的就是科技创业。

And the only thing I could think of was tech entrepreneurship.

那是我唯一能真正想到的事情。

That was, like, the only thing I could really think of.

于是这是一个非常清晰的决定，我决定：好吧。

And so that was a very clarifying decision where I decided, alright.

我需要搬到硅谷，因为那里是科技创业发生的地方。

I need to move to Silicon Valley because that's where tech entrepreneurship happens.

我需要停止所有其他正在做的事情，因为那些都只是短期的小游戏。

I need to shut down all the other stuff I'm doing because those are just little short term games.

我把所有那些小型出租房产都卖掉了。

I sold off to all these little rental properties.

做出这个决定后，搬到硅谷后的几年里，Coinbase成立了。

And within a few years of that decision, moving to Silicon Valley, Coinbase had been founded.

我认为，在做出这个决定后的七年里，Coinbase的估值达到了十亿美元。

And I think within seven years of that decision, Coinbase had a billion dollar valuation.

这对我来说是人生方向的巨大转变。

It was like a huge direction and change in my life.

我就想，我知道长期来看什么是大事，我要全身心投入其中。

Was just like, I know what the big thing is long term, and I'm going to just go all in on it.

所有的决定都导向了这一点。

All the decisions led to that.

当你刚开始创办Coinbase时，你有没有想过，如果它成功了，即使在那时，你也会愿意用接下来的几十年去投身于此？

At the time you started Coinbase, did you think if it succeeds, this is something I'm dedicate a few decades of my life to doing even at that point?

我记得我当时确实这么想过，因为之前我尝试过几个其他的想法，那些都挺难的，而且我其实并不热衷于它们。

I remember I did think that, yeah, because I had tried a couple of these other ideas that were kind of they were difficult, and I wasn't actually passionate about it.

所以很多创业就是不断从一个挫折跳到下一个挫折，但你依然充满热情，不管怎样。

And so a lot of entrepreneurship, you're just moving from one setback to the next with enthusiasm, whatever.

有句温斯顿·丘吉尔的名言。

There's that Winston Churchill quote.

于是我意识到，做那些生意有多难。

So I was like, Okay, if I'm I realized how hard it was to do those businesses.

所以我想，下次我尝试的项目，必须是我真正愿意用一生去投入的事情。

So I was like, the next thing I try, I need to make sure it's something that I'm, like, I'm really into for a lifetime.

对吧？

Right?

我当时读了很多书，比如米尔顿·弗里德曼关于经济学的著作，还有艾茵·兰德的作品等等。

And I had been reading a lot of books like Milton Friedman about economics and like Ayn Rand and stuff.

于是我想，好吧。

And I was like, Okay.

我开始对这些自由市场、自由意志主义的理念产生兴趣。

I was getting kind of into these like free market, like libertarian ideas.

而且我当时在阿根廷生活了一年。

And I was also living in Argentina for a year.

那是整个故事中很重要的一部分，因为我亲眼目睹了一个恶性通胀的国家。

That was a whole piece of the story where I got to see like a hyperinflation country.

你为什么去阿根廷？

Why'd you go to Argentina?

嗯，很多女生吗？

Well, lots of Women?

不是。

No.

好吧。

Okay.

不是。

No.

可惜没有。

Sadly, no.

但我需要一些冒险。

But it was I needed some adventure.

我不知道自己想做什么。

Didn't know what I wanted to do with my life.

我从未独自旅行过。

And so I just I had never traveled alone.

所以我干脆出国了，试着让自己走出舒适区。

And so I basically just went abroad and, like, tried to put myself outside my comfort zone.

我从未参过军。

I had never been in the military.

我从未旅行过，从未独自出国旅行。

I had never traveled I had never, like, traveled abroad by myself.

我当时看了很多书，说实话，我觉得自己必须去环游世界，去看看自己究竟想做什么。

I was kind of just reading a bunch of books and, like, I don't I mean, I need to go travel the world and, like, see find find what I'm trying to do with my life.

你去了布宜诺斯艾利斯？

You went to Buenos Aires?

是的。

Yeah.

那里很美。

It was beautiful.

阿根廷是个美丽的国家。

Argentina is a beautiful country.

对。

Yeah.

嗯，从经济学的角度来看，我学到了一些东西，但不是那种意思。

It's well, it's I learned from an economics point of view, like Oh, not like that.

说的是自然风光。

About the physical beauty.

这其实有关联，因为据我了解，大约在1900年左右，更确切地说是1908年，阿根廷曾是全球前十强经济体之一。

Well, so it ties together because my understanding is actually around the year 1900 or so, like more than one hundred years ago, I think 1908, it was like one of the top 10 economies in the whole world.

它被称为

It was called

南美的巴黎。

the Paris of South America.

是的。

Yeah.

它是第一个拥有火车站的拉丁美洲国家。

It was like the first Latin American country that had a train station.

你可以在这些历史建筑中看到这一点。

You can see it in these historic buildings.

它们曾因牛肉、铜矿和这些资源而拥有巨额财富。

They had massive wealth from beef and copper and all these things.

但在过去一百年里，由于糟糕的经济政策，本质上是社会主义政策，政府以帮助人民的名义掠夺人民的财富。

And then over a period of one hundred years of bad economic policy of essentially socialist policies of the government stealing wealth from the people while claiming to help them.

如今，它已成为世界第100富有的经济体。

It's now the one hundredth richest economy in the world.

它从前十名跌到了第一百名。

It went from top 10 to one hundredth.

于是我到那里读了安·兰德和米尔顿·弗里德曼的著作，看到恶性通货膨胀如何摧毁了整个国家，每个人对未来都充满悲观。

And so I was down there reading Ayn Rand, Milton Friedman, and seeing how hyperinflation had decimated this entire country, and everyone was pessimistic about the future.

那些曾经宏伟的政府建筑如今已破败不堪，墙壁开裂、爬满常春藤，到处都是涂鸦。

And these once grand government buildings were just in these states of decay with cracks and ivy and graffiti on it and stuff.

就在那一刻，我心想：好吧，我接下来要做的，必须是我长期热衷的事情。

And this was around that moment where I was like, Okay, the next thing I do, it needs to be something I'm passionate about for the long term.

就在那之后的一两年内，我读到了比特币白皮书。

And within a year or two of that, I read the Bitcoin white paper.

它深深吸引了我的注意力。

That captivated my attention.

然后我想

And then I think

比特币白皮书是在2008年发布的。

This is around so Bitcoin white paper published 2008.

是的

Yeah.

我想你读过

I think You read

吗？

it?

2010年12月。

December 2010.

好的。

Okay.

是的

Yeah.

我刚从阿根廷回来，当时在湾区，正决定要投身科技创业。

I had just come back from Argentina, so I was in the Bay Area deciding I wanted to be in tech entrepreneurship.

我在2010年12月读了比特币白皮书。

I read the Bitcoin white paper December 2010.

我其实当时在Airbnb找到了一份工作，看到他们如何在不同国家之间进行资金流动。

I had gotten a job at Airbnb, actually, and I was seeing how money movement was happening with them all in these different countries.

正是那时，我开始在晚上和周末开发Coinbase的原型。

And that's when I started working on the prototype for Coinbase nights and weekends.

那么，他们当时是怎么把钱转到这些不同国家的呢？

So wait, how did they move money to all these different countries back then, though?

传统的支付渠道。

Legacy payment rails.

所以在美国和欧洲，情况稍微简单一些。

So in The US and Europe, was a little simpler.

你可以使用银行转账。

You could use bank transfers.

他们接收付款，然后必须向房东支付款项。

So they were accepting payments in, then they had to pay out to the host.

在他们运营的许多国家，比如拉丁美洲，会有一些本地的现金领取服务，有点像西联汇款，但不同国家用的是不同的服务。

In many of the countries where they operated, like in Latin America, there would be some local cash pickup service that you could kind of like a Western Union, but it was different ones in different countries.

而且它们的手续费通常非常高，高达7%到12%。

And they typically had very high fees, like 7% to 12%.

我记得我们当时试图向厄瓜多尔或者某个类似国家支付款项。

I remember we were trying to send payouts into I think it was Ecuador or one of these countries.

我们发现那个地区其实只有两三家公司垄断了这项业务。

And we were reading that we it's like there's, like, a little oligopoly of, like, two or two companies that do this and that in the region.

我们想知道，最终有多少钱能到达收款方？

And we were we were like, how much money shows up on the other side?

你们的手续费是多少？

Like, what are your fees?

然后我们仔细阅读了它们的文档。

And then and we we were reading through their documentation.

我们意识到，这简直就像一种近乎腐败的运作方式。

We're like, we have no idea how it's basically like a borderline corrupt thing.

于是我们干脆决定汇出100美元，并在当地找了个接应的人。

And we basically just decided to send $100 And we found somebody there.

那么，另一边最终到账了多少钱？

Like, how much money showed up on the other side?

只是为了给我们一个大致的概念，这样我们才能告诉客户他们的收款会是多少。

Just to give us some rough sense so we could tell the customer how much their payout was going to be.

我的意思是，这让我深刻体会到全球金融体系有多么糟糕。

I mean, it it gave me such a visceral sense of how broken the global financial system is.

每个国家都有自己的一套专属寡头垄断体系。

It's like each country has its own little proprietary set of oligopolies.

想象一下，如果互联网是这样运作的，对吧？

And imagine if the internet worked like this, right?

比如，我想加载一个来自另一个国家的网页。

It's like, oh, I want to load a web page from another country.

然后他们说：你要支付高额的兑换费，内容还是另一种语言，还得等上七天之类的。

And they're like, you pay a high exchange fee, and it comes in a different language, and you have to wait seven days or whatever.

我通过几次这样的经历意识到——比如阿根廷的恶性通货膨胀、Airbnb的经历，以及阅读了一些相关书籍后，世界需要一个快速、廉价、无需许可、去中心化的全球金融系统，这样就不会有一小群人能够腐败或操纵系统。

I realized due to a couple of these experiences, like the Argentina experience with hyperinflation, the Airbnb experience, and reading some of these books that the world would benefit from a global financial system that was fast, cheap, permissionless, decentralized, so there was no small group of people who could be corrupt or put their fingers on the dials to manipulate it.

因此，当我第一次阅读比特币白皮书时，我脑海中想的就是这些。

And so that was what I was thinking about as I read the Bitcoin white paper for the first time.

好的。

Okay.

所以你正在形成自己对经济学和其中重要事物的个人理念。

So you have you're building your personal philosophy about economics and what's important there.

你知道自己想投身于科技创业，因为这是你真正热爱的事业，你希望长期坚持下去。

You know that you want to dedicate yourself to tech entrepreneurship as far as what your career is, because you're going be passionate about that, you want to do something for a long term.

同时，你也亲身经历了向各种不同的经济体和国家汇款的现实难题。

And then you're also seeing this real life problem of trying to send money into all these disparate economies and countries.

是的。

Yes.

然后你开始在晚上和周末着手开发 Coinbase？

And then you start working on Coinbase nights and weekends?

对。

Yeah.

顺便说，总结得真好。

Great summary, by the way.

对。

Yeah.

所以我不能靠这个谋生。

So I can't do that for a living.

是的。

Yeah.

所以，正是这种拼搏和动力驱使我，因为我在Airbnb工作时经常加班。

So this is where a little bit of that hustle and drive came in, because I was working long hours at Airbnb.

他们是一家飞速发展的公司。

They were a rocket ship company.

我学到了很多，团队真的非常出色。

I was learning a lot, really amazing team.

但我真的想为我的下一家公司打造一些全新的东西。

But I really wanted to build something new for my next company.

我仍然想成为一名创业者。

I still wanted to be an entrepreneur.

所以我每天在Airbnb工作到晚上7点，回家后吃点晚餐。

And so I'd worked till 7PM at Airbnb, come home, eat a little dinner.

然后每周大约五天，从晚上8点半到午夜左右，我会专心做我的创业项目。

And then from like 08:30 to midnight or something, like five days a week, I would work on my startup.

你必须非常小心。

And you always have to be very careful.

你必须用自己的独立笔记本电脑来做。

You have to do it on your own separate laptop.

不要在公司时间或公司财产上做这件事。

Don't do it on company time or company property.

确保完全分开。

Make sure it's separate.

但我用的是自己的笔记本电脑。

But I used my own laptop.

有时候在周日，我也会工作。

And sometimes on Sundays, I'd work as well.

我差不多会休息一天。

And I'd sort of take one day off.

但我一直在拼命努力。

But I was just grinding.

我当时想，好吧，我不知道该从哪里开始。

And I was like, Okay, well, I didn't know where to start.

所以你只能先从任何事情做起，对吧？

So you kind just have to start with anything, right?

于是，我先去找了我大学时的一个朋友。

So first, went and talked to a friend of mine I went to college with.

我们开发了一个简单的安卓应用，是一个比特币钱包。

We built this little Android app for Bitcoin, a Bitcoin wallet.

当我们发布后，我意识到我们做错了方向。

I realized once we shipped that, we had done it the wrong way.

我试图说服他离开谷歌，和我一起创业。

I tried to recruit him to leave Google and be a co founder with me.

他还没有准备好做这件事。

He wasn't ready to do that.

于是我开始开发另一个原型，一个基于云的比特币钱包，这最终成为了Coinbase。

So I started working on another prototype that was more of a cloud based Bitcoin wallet, which eventually became Coinbase.

我不得不使用Ruby重新实现整个比特币节点，只是为了让它连接到我的数据库，诸如此类的事情。

And I had to reimplement a whole Bitcoin node in Ruby just to try to get it to hook up to my database, all these things.

所以我只是在晚上和周末做这些，同时偶尔尝试寻找联合创始人，参加这些联合创始人约会。

So I was just doing this nights and weekends while occasionally trying to find a co founder and going on these co founder dates.

你为什么觉得你需要一个联合创始人？

Why did you think you needed a co founder?

主要原因是，我读了很多保罗·格雷厄姆关于Y Combinator的文章。

Well, the main reason was that I had read a lot of Paul Graham essays from Y Combinator.

我真的很想被Y Combinator录取。

And I I really wanted to get accepted into Y Combinator.

它是硅谷顶尖的孵化器，至今仍是。

It was like the top incubator, it still is, in Silicon Valley.

保罗写了大量优秀的文章。

And Paul had these great essays.

其中一篇谈到，如果你看看休利特和帕卡德，还有拉里和谢尔盖，当然也有例外。

And one of them had talked about how if you look at Hewlett and Packard and Larry and Sergey, and there are exceptions.

但大多数情况下，伟大的创始人创业极其艰难，拥有具备互补技能的人会很有帮助。

But more often than not, like great founders building a company is just so difficult, it helps to have people with some complementary skill sets.

所以，为了提高自己被Y Combinator录取的机会，哪怕只是为了公司最终成功，我都在寻找合适的人选。

So just to improve my chances of getting to Y Combinator, if nothing else, and the company eventually succeeding, I was trying to find the right person.

是的，这很有趣，因为我觉得即使你有联合创始人，实际上也往往只有一个核心创始人。

Yeah, it's interesting because I feel like there's always even if you have co founders, it's like one it's actually one founder.

你可能一开始有两三个甚至四个人。

Like, you could start out with two or three or four.

我知道Y Combinator要求必须有联合创始人，这一点被反复强调。

And I know YC is like, you need a co founder, and that's something that's repeated.

但如果你阅读创业史，就会发现，嘿，你一开始可能有三四个甚至五个人。

But if you read the history of entrepreneurship, it's like, yo, well, you start out with three or four or five.

但总有一个核心人物。

There's always one.

总有一个真正推动公司前进的人。

Like, there's one person that's going that's actually driving the company.

比如，就像沃兹尼亚克和乔布斯那样。

Well, long like, it's like Wozniak and Jobs.

对吧？

Right?

乔布斯显然在长期内影响更大，但如果没有沃兹在早期的贡献，可能就不会有苹果公司。

Like, Jobs was clearly the one that had more impact over a long period of time, but there probably wouldn't have been an Apple without Woz in the early days.

是的。

Yeah.

你永远无法完全确定。

You you never know exactly.

而且，说实话，我曾经花了一年半的时间试图找一位联合创始人，但失败了。

And, like I will say, in my case, I tried to find a co founder for about a year and a half and failed.

所以，我最终上线了这款应用，并成功进入了Y Combinator。

And so I eventually got the app live and got into Y Combinator.

这里面有一整个故事。

And there's a whole story there.

你是以单人创始人的身份进入Y Combinator的吗？

Did you get into Y Combinator as a solo founder?

这又是另一个有趣的故事。

So this is another interesting story.

但我当时是和一个叫本·里夫的人一起申请的，他创建了blockchain.info，也就是现在的blockchain.com。

But I actually applied with this guy, Ben Reeve, who had created blockchain.info, which is now blockchain.com.

他之前根本没听说过Y Combinator，但我劝他从英国飞过来。

And we sort of he had never heard of Y Combinator, but I convinced him to fly from The UK.

我们见了面，喝了杯咖啡，然后一起去参加了面试——顺便说一句，这可不是个好主意。

Met, had a coffee, and then we went into the interview, which, by the way, is a bad idea.

你真的应该和那些你认识很久的人一起创业。

You should really cofound with people you've known for a long time.

所以不管怎样，我们 somehow 在这个前提下被录取了。

So anyway, we got accepted somehow under that premise.

我想我们可能没有提到我们认识的时间并不长，或者在面试中没有提到这一点。

I don't think we mentioned probably that we didn't know each other that long or didn't come up in the interview or something.

我们没有隐瞒任何事情。

We didn't hide anything.

但无论如何，三个月内就很明显，这段合作行不通了。

But anyway, it became clear within three months that it was not going to work.

于是，在 YC 的帮助下，我和他进行了一次艰难的谈话。

And so with the help of YC, I kind of went I had a hard conversation with him about that.

然后我独自完成了整个项目。

And I went through the program solo.

总之，简而言之，我们完成了 Y Combinator 的项目，并在结束时完成了种子轮融资。

Anyway, long story short, we went through Y Combinator, raised the seed round at the end of it.

我很幸运，弗雷德·埃尔萨姆主动联系了我。

And I was lucky enough to have Fred Ehrsam reach out to me.

他成为了我第一个非正式合作的人。

And he became the first person who I really started working with on it unofficially.

然后事情就开始顺利起来，我们的技能互补性很强。

And then it just started going really well, very complementary skill sets.

于是我邀请他一起创业。

And I asked him to cofound.

于是他成为了Coinbase的联合创始人。

And so he became the cofounder of Coinbase.

实际上，我认为如果没有弗雷德，Coinbase不会成功。

And I actually don't think Coinbase would have succeeded without Fred.

如果你看看之后三四年甚至五年，我们经历过很多次生死攸关的时刻，而他总是表现得极其出色。

Like, if you look at the subsequent three, four, or five years, there was a lot of, like, near death experiences, and he was just an absolute killer.

正是这种搭档关系，让我们真正实现了产品与市场的契合，从起飞平台一跃进入轨道。

And so it was that pairing that allowed us to really get to product market fit and, like, off the launch launch pad into orbit, if you will.

布拉德·雅各布斯已经创办了八家独立的十亿美元公司。

Brad Jacobs has started eight separate billion dollar companies.

他说，我一生中认识了许多极其成功的人，他们都有一个共同点：他们的思维方式与大多数人不同。

He said, I've come to know a lot of extremely successful people in my life, and they all have one thing in common: they think differently than most people.

他们无一例外，都重新塑造了自己的思维模式，以便在动荡的环境中实现宏伟目标，而常规思维往往在此类环境中失效。

All of them, to a person, have rearranged their brains to prevail at achieving big goals in turbulent environments where conventional thinking often fails.

布拉德注意到，优秀的商业领袖都是模式识别者，但如果你看不到全部数据，就无法发现模式。

What Brad noticed is that great business leaders are pattern spotters, But you can't spot patterns if you can't see all of your data.

大多数企业只使用了20%的数据。

Most businesses only use 20% of their data.

为什么？

Why?

因为80%的客户洞察是看不见的。

Because 80% of customer intelligence is invisible.

它们隐藏在电子邮件、转录文本和对话中。

It's hidden in emails, transcripts, and conversations.

这就是HubSpot发挥作用的地方。

That's where HubSpot comes in.

使用HubSpot，你的所有数据都会汇聚在一起，让你看到真正重要的模式。

With HubSpot, all of your data comes together so you can see the patterns that matter.

这很重要，因为你知道得越多，成长得就越多，而这是一个永不失败的规律。

This is important because when you know more, you grow more, and that is a pattern that never fails.

今天就访问hubspot.com吧。

Visit hubspot.com today.

那就是hubspot.com。

That is hubspot.com.

我听过一些关于Coinbase初创时期的一些有趣故事。

There were some funny stories from the early days of Coinbase I've heard.

比如，弗雷德发现你们在每笔比特币交易上都在亏钱。

Like, Fred identified that you guys were losing money on every single Bitcoin transaction.

是的。

Yes.

这是真的。

That is true.

那怎么会发生呢？

How did how did that happen?

简单来说，我主修计算机科学，同时学习了经济学和计算机科学。

The simple version of it is that I was a computer science major, and I studied economics and computer science.

弗雷德也学了同样的专业，但大学毕业后他进入了金融行业。

Fred studied the same thing, but he had gone into work in finance after college.

他去高盛担任外汇交易员。

He went to go work at Goldman Sachs as an FX trader.

而我则是一名软件工程师兼创业者，一个失败的创业者。

And I was working as a software engineerentrepreneur, failing entrepreneur.

所以我更偏向于工程师的思维方式。

So I had more of, like, that engineering brain.

他则更像金融交易员的思维方式。

He had more like that finance trader brain.

当他进来并开始分析每笔交易的资金流动时，他能够将这些情况梳理清楚。

And so when he came in and started to analyze all of the flow of funds on every trade, he was able to map that out.

由于某些时间风险等因素，他确实正确地梳理出了这些模式。

And due to certain time risks and things, he actually was correct that he mapped that out.

那只是一套我不太熟悉的条件。

And it was just a set of conditions which I was not as familiar with.

因此，这很好地体现了他在我们共事的前几周内所创造的价值。

So that was a great example of just him adding value in the first probably three weeks we worked together.

但这并不是像你所说的那样，它并不是

But that wasn't like you it wasn't

一场濒死体验。

like a near death experience.

不，那次并不是濒死体验。

No, that one wasn't near death.

只是找到了正确的商业模式和收费结构。

It was just getting the right business model and fee structure.

什么是一次接近死亡的经历的例子？

What was an example of a near death experience?

好吧。

Well, Okay.

一个接近死亡的经历的例子是，我想我们当时可能刚刚完成了A轮融资之类的。

So an example of a near death experience was I think we had raised maybe the series A or something like that.

是的。

Yeah.

我们已经找到了产品与市场的契合点。

And we had found product market fit.

所以每天都有很多人使用这个网站。

So there were a lot of people using the site every day.

我们积压了大量的客户支持请求。

And we were having this huge backlog of customer support inquiries.

每天晚上从晚上9点到午夜，我们都要忙着回复客户咨询，因为我们没有专门的客服团队。

It would be like every night from 9PM to midnight, we would just try to answer support queries because we didn't have a customer support team.

嗯，我们当时正在慢慢搭建它，我应该这么说。

Well, we were slowly trying to build it, I should say.

不管怎样，我们当时积压了大约一千、两千、五千、一万条客户支持工单，人们对此非常生气。

Anyway, so we had like 1,000, 2,000, 5,000, 10,000 backlog of these customer support tickets, and people were getting very angry about all of this.

是因为你们无法回复吗？

Because you couldn't respond?

是的。

Yeah.

我就是那些人中的一个。

I was one of those people.

好吧。

Okay.

你很早就用了Coinbase吗？

You were early on Coinbase?

是的。

Yeah.

好的。

Okay.

对于缺乏客户支持回复，我深表歉意。

Well, apologies for the lack of customer support response.

对

To the

以至于我当时都抬头看了，我那里有不少比特币。

point where I was like looking up, like I had a bunch of Bitcoin on there.

我当时想，出问题了。

Was like, there was an issue.

然后我就想，地址是多少？

And I was like, what is the address?

我甚至得飞去旧金山，因为这些人根本不回我的

Like, I'm going to have to fly to San Francisco because these people won't respond to my

邮件。

email.

嗯，事情就是这样，人们开始陆续来到办公室。

Well, this is exactly what happened, is people started showing up at the office.

我们其实根本没公布过地址，但网上有一张办公室的照片，背景里能看见几栋楼。

And we didn't really even have the address published, but there was a photo of the office, and you could see in the background a couple of these buildings.

有些人找到了那张照片，就开始在各种奇怪的时间跑到办公室来。

And some people found that, and they started showing up at the office at all these odd hours.

我记得有一次

I remember some

嗯，那时候他们肯定都是怪人。

Well, back there, they had to be weirdos.

那时候玩加密货币的人，根本不是那种普通的

Like, the people that were into crypto back then were not your normal I

我不知道。

don't know.

我的意思是，偶尔我会拿着高尔夫球杆去开门。

I mean, was once in a while, would actually go answer the door holding, like, a golf club.

而且通常都是有人过来问，为什么我的加密货币还没到账？

And Usually, it was somebody who was like, man, why didn't my crypto hit my wall?

有时候我们会给人们寄一张实体支票，然后说，好吧，你得离开办公室了。

And then we were like sometimes we'd write people a physical check, and like, okay, you need to leave the office.

无论如何，那是我第一次真正经历成千上万人同时对你生气的情况。

Anyway, that was the first time I'd really experienced having tens of thousands of people angry at you at the same time.

因为那时候，那是唯一可以用信用卡购买比特币的地方，对吧？

Because back then, it was the only place where you could buy Bitcoin with a credit card, right?

比如你可以用

Like you could use

是的，或者用银行转账。

Yeah, or a bank transfer.

一旦我们成功建立了银行合作，并在美国实现了便捷的买卖渠道，产品就立刻获得了市场认可，我们只是拼命跟上需求。

Once we managed to get that bank partnership set up and an easy way to buy, sell in The US, we had instant product market fit, it was just like trying to keep up with the demand.

你是第一个做这件事的加密货币公司吗？

Were you the first crypto company to do that?

在美国。

In The US.

在美国。

In The US.

是的。

Yeah.

对，没错。

Yeah, exactly.

你们是怎么获得银行合作的？

How did you get the bank partnership?

这本身就是一个完整的故事。

So that's its own whole story.

顺便说一下，我们还经历过其他几次生死攸关的网络事件，如果你感兴趣，我们可以聊聊。

By the way, there was other near death experiences around cyber events and things like that we can talk about if you want.

但在银行方面，是的，这是另一个有趣的故事：你可能难以置信，Coinbase应用的第一个版本实际上无法买卖比特币。

But on the bank side yeah, so Okay, this is another interesting story where we Okay, believe it or not, the first version of the Coinbase app, actually, you couldn't buy or sell Bitcoin.

我以为我们是在做一个用于互联网支付的钱包。

I thought we were making a wallet for payments on the internet.

所以你可以存储比特币。

And so you could store Bitcoin.

你可以进行比特币支付。

You could make Bitcoin payments.

这个原型发布了。

And this prototype went out.

我记得有几百人通过Reddit之类的地方注册了。

And I remember a couple 100 people signed up off of Reddit or something like that.

但这款应用并没有留住用户，对吧？

But the app was not retaining users, right?

在Y Combinator，他们教你要去和客户交流，获取反馈，然后再开发产品。

And what they teach you in Y Combinator is go talk to customers, get feedback, and then build the product.

和客户交流，然后开发产品。

And talk to customers and build the product.

就反复做这件事，别被其他乱七八糟的事情分心，比如去参加大会之类的。

And just do that on repeat, and don't get distracted by any other bullshit, like going to conferences or whatever.

我记得我给其中三位注册用户发了邮件。

So I remember I emailed three of these people who had signed up.

我对他们说：嘿，我开发了SAP。

And I was like, hey, I built SAP.

我能跟你通个电话吗？

Can I get on the phone with you?

在最初的几次对话中，我说：我注意到你没有再回应用了。

And in the first few conversations, I was like, I noticed you didn't come back to the app.

对方说：是的，应用挺酷的，但我根本没比特币。

And the guy was like, yeah, the app was pretty cool, but I just don't have any Bitcoin.

我记得那一刻，我脑子里突然灵光一现。

And I remember something clicked in my head.

于是我问：如果应用里有个购买按钮，你会在这里买吗？

I was like, well, if there was a buy button in the app, would you have bought it here?

现在回头看，这听起来很荒谬，但当时这确实是市场调研，对吧？

And it sounds ridiculous in hindsight, but at the time, this was market research, right?

他回答说，是的，大概吧。

And he's like, yeah, probably.

于是我心想，好吧，我们得为人们提供一种简单的方式，让他们可以直接在这里购买。

And so I was like, Okay, we've got to make a simple way for people to just buy it here.

你并不是要先去一个独立的交易所，然后再把比特币转入钱包用于日常使用之类的。

It's not like you go to a separate exchange and then put it in your wallet for actually daily utility or something.

于是我想，好吧，我们得让银行转账成为可能，就像 PayPal 或借记卡那样。

And so then I was like, Okay, we've got to make it possible to get bank transfers hooked up, kind of like PayPal or debit cards.

我记得我给这些银行打电话，说：嘿，我想接入银行网络，美国这边叫 ACH。

And I remember calling these different banks and saying, hey, I want to get integrated into the bank network in the ACH it's called ACH in The US.

这些银行要么就是：你在说什么鬼东西？

And these banks were either like, what the heck are you talking about?

我从来没听说过这玩意儿。

Like, I've never heard of this thing.

听起来像是个骗局。

It sounds like a scam.

或者一些听说过比特币的人，我记得直接挂了我的电话。

Or some of them who had heard about Bitcoin, I remember, hung up on me.

他们说，我们不和比特币公司合作。

They were like they're like, we do not work with Bitcoin companies.

啪的一声就把电话挂了，对吧？

Like, bam, slamming the phone down, right?

于是我去找了Y Combinator的合伙人。

And so I went to the partners at Y Combinator.

实际上，当时其中一位是萨姆·阿尔特曼。

Actually, one of them was like Sam Altman at the time.

他当时在运营Y Combinator。

He was running Y Combinator.

加里·谭也在那里。

Gary Tan was there.