丹尼尔·埃克，Spotify | 大卫·塞拉

所以我想把这次对话视为去年我们在纽约那次谈话的延续。那是我全年最具影响力的一次对话，很大程度上也是我们现在坐下来录制这次对话的原因。最让我触动的是，你给出的建议和讲述的故事从根本上改变了我的工作方式，甚至重塑了我的生活哲学。这种影响实属罕见。

So I wanna consider this conversation like a continuation of the conversation we had last year in New York. It was by far the most impactful conversation I had the entire year. It is in large part the reason we're sitting down and actually recording this conversation. And what I loved was I was I thought about how the advice you gave and the stories you told really fundamentally changed my approach to my work, and then also, like, my philosophy of how I'm living my life. And because you it's it's very rare.

比如今年，我为播客节目阅读的人物传记将超过400本。最近有人问我是否发现过新观点？其实没有。我感觉自己一直在反复讲述相同的故事和人格类型。

Like, this year, I'm gonna hit over 400 biographies read for the podcast. Right? And somebody asked me recently, do you ever uncover new ideas? It's like, no. I feel like I'm telling the same story, the same personality type over and over and over again.

虽然偶尔也会遇到新观点或独特见解，但肯定不是常态。但你在那次晚餐分享的观点确实令人耳目一新。几个月后我读到一篇访谈时恍然大悟：原来被Daniel的建议改变职业生涯的不止我一人。现在我要读一段内容...

And you'll get a new idea or a novel idea, you know, every once in while, but certainly not all the time. Yeah. But you shared something at the dinner that was a truly novel idea. And then a few months later, read this interview, and I was like, oh, I'm not the only one that Daniel's advice changed the career. So I'm going read something.

这是优步CEO——你的朋友Dara接受的访谈。我要读的这段摘录非常精彩，他当时正在纠结是否接受这份工作：既是重大机遇又令人畏惧。

There was an interview given by the CEO of Uber, who's a friend of yours, Dara. Yeah. And I'm going to read this excerpt, which was absolutely perfect. And he was talking about contemplating, should I take this job or not? Like, this is a huge opportunity, but also, like, kinda scary.

这正契合你提出的「应该优先考虑影响力而非幸福感」的观点——我从未听其他人如此清晰地表述过。Dara说：当时看到新闻里优步面临的各种问题，初次接到CEO邀约时我的反应是『绝对不行，我又不疯，接不了这活儿』。

And this is tied to your idea that you should optimize for impact over happiness, which is very I haven't heard anybody else articulate that. And so Dara says, was reading about all the issues happening in with Uber in the news, the various challenges that were coming up there. So when I first got the call to be the CEO, I said, heck no. I'm not crazy. I'm not up for this.

但有一次关键对话改变了我的想法，那是和我的好友Daniel Ek的交谈。我至今记得当时正在谈论我在Expedia的幸福职业生涯，他看着我说（他也对我做过同样的事）——『人生什么时候变成追求幸福了？应该是追求影响力。你能改变优步这家塑造未来城市的重要企业』。

But I had one particular conversation that really shifted me, which was with Daniel Ek, who's a good friend. And I still remember I was talking to him about my career at Expedia and how happy I was, and he looks at me, and he did this to me too. And he looks at me, and he goes, since when is life about happiness? It's about impact. You can have an impact on Uber, which is a really important company in the world that's shaping the future of cities.

我当时心想：天啊，这道理如此明显，我必须尝试。虽然知道过程会很艰难。能否请你详细解释下，为何以及如何将影响力置于幸福感之上进行优化？

And I thought thought to myself, my god, this is so obvious. I've got to take a shot. I knew it was going to be uncomfortable. Can you just explain how you think about optimizing for impact over happiness and why?

首先，达拉能这么说真是非常贴心。关于这一点我是这么想的——我认为幸福感是影响力的滞后指标。它可能以短暂迸发或微小瞬间的形式出现，生活中也会有诸多起伏波动。所以你可以选择接受这部分，即人生的高潮与低谷等等。

Well, first off, it's it's incredibly kind of, Dara, to say that. You know, I think about this. I think happiness is a trailing indicator of impact. And I think it can be, you you can feel happiness in small bursts, in small moments, and you can have a lot of variance in your life. So you can choose to have that part, which is the ups, the downs of life, etcetera.

我并非否认快乐的存在，但真正持久的幸福感源于影响力。而影响力对你而言是极其个人化的，只有你自己能定义什么对你算是有影响力。因此我认为它对不同的人意味着不同的东西，但它确实是个滞后指标。

So I'm not saying you can have happiness, but I think truly sustained happiness comes from impact. And impact is something that's deeply personal to you. Only you can define what impact means for you. So I think it means different things for different people. But I do think it's a trailing indicator.

以阿达拉为例，在我看来很明显的是——他处于满足状态而非快乐状态。了解他多年的人知道，他经历过Expedia时期的种种起伏，后来基本解决了这些问题。所以他很满足。在他这个人生阶段，这种满足感如此自然，以至于他自己都没意识到已经变得满足。

So the way I would put it in this case is, what was obvious for me with someone like Adara was he was content. He wasn't happy. And, you know, he had gone through a phase, knowing him for a while, where he had a lot of ups and downs with Expedia and all that stuff, and and he'd kind of mostly figured it out. And so he was content. And I think that in his case, you know, where he was at his life, it was such an obvious thing that he didn't even realize that he'd just grown content.

对我来说，优步是家非常特别的公司。当被邀请担任CEO时，我清楚知道他能为公司带来的影响力，这对我来说是显而易见的选择。嗯。所以我建议他'应该把握这个机会'。这将是更伟大的事业，不仅会为你，也会为更多人带来更持久的幸福。

And so for me, you know, Uber is a very special company. And to be even be asked to be the CEO of that and the impact I knew he could have on that company just felt to me like an obvious thing. Mhmm. And so I I I sort of advised him to, hey, you should go go for this. And and that's a far greater thing, and that's gonna be far will lead to more much more happiness, not just for you, but also for other people.

有人这样引导过你吗？是否有人告诉你要优先考虑影响力而非快乐？还是说这就是你与生俱来的处事方式？

Did somebody do that for you? Did somebody tell you to optimize for impact over happiness, or is this just you the way you work?

我想我是这样自我激励的——通过做艰难的事情。和多数人一样，我天性相当懒惰，常常试图选择轻松的道路。但我领悟到，最大的快乐往往来自战胜最严峻的逆境。

I think I self motivate myself that way Okay. To do the hard things. You know, like many other people, I'm I'm quite lazy by nature. I try to take the simple road out often enough. But what I've learned that has given me the greatest joys is overcoming the biggest adversities.

而克服最大逆境的过程，通常是为某人或某事解决别人都束手无策的问题。这就是我对影响力的定义。在当下时刻我未必感觉良好，事实上很多时候反而更煎熬。但当我回顾那些成就或产生影响的时刻，才会感受到真正的幸福。

And overcoming the biggest adversities usually has been solving a problem of some kind for someone or something that no one else had been able to figure out. And for me, that's my definition of impact. And it's not right there at the moment that I feel bad. Actually, in many cases, I feel much longer. But it's when I go back and I reflect on accomplishments or moments of impact, then I feel true happiness.

因此我逐渐学会不断自我激励。顺便说，我认为这其实源于更深层的原因。明白吗？比如，我来自瑞典的一个项目，我并不是那种普通的孩子。

And so I've just grown to kind of self motivate myself constantly. And I think this, by the way, kind of comes from a much deeper thing. Right? Like, I came from pretty much what was the project in Sweden, and I I was not the normal kid. You know?

我大概算是中等水平的孩子，但确实与众不同。我不属于任何社交群体，没有所谓的社交归属感等等。

I was kind of probably a middle of the pack kind of kid, but I certainly stood out. I didn't belong to any social group. There was no social cohesion, etcetera.

所以你在那个年纪就觉得自己是个局外人？

So you felt like an outsider even at that age?

噢，当然。你现在还有这种感觉吗？是的，我生命中的每时每刻。即便在其他创业者中间，我有时也觉得自己像个局外人。比如现在，你我在硅谷。

Oh, yeah. Do you still today? Yeah. Every moment of my life. Even among other fellow entrepreneurs, I sometimes feel like an outsider because, like, right now, for instance, you and I, we're in Silicon Valley.

但我不是美国人。所以我身上有种不属于这个圈子的特质。这种感觉始终伴随着我。正因如此，我不能百分百借鉴他人的经验——因为我的故事、处境、浪潮乃至公司架构都与他们不同，欧洲公司和美国公司的运营模式本就存在差异。

Yeah. But I'm not American. So there's an element of myself where I don't belong to the club. And I've always felt that way. And because I've always felt that way, I've had to I can't take lessons from other people a 100% because some of my stories, some of my conditions, some of the waves, the structures, even how to structure a company, you have to structure differently if you're a European company versus an American company.

所以你必须回归基本原则，寻找适合自己的解决方案。我人生大部分时间都在自我驱动。直到最近五年我才意识到，某种意义上，我可能更适合当教练而非球员。我越来越明白，那种驱动力和专注度其实是可以传授的，并非完全与生俱来。

So you have to go back to sort of first principles and kind of find the sort of principled answer to anything and what works for you. And so I've had to kind of self motivate myself for most of my life. And only, I would say, in the last maybe five years, I've come to realize that, in a way, I may be a better coach than I am a player. And so I've kind of understood more and more that actually that sort of drive, that intensity is actually something that can be taught. It's not entirely innate.

关键是要让人们明白这很正常。这种认知往往来自深度对话，更像是种映射——不是把我认为对的东西强加于人。听达拉讲述时我就恍然大悟，毕竟我们最初聊的是优步，我说过是我推荐你入职的。

And it's about almost letting people know that that's okay. And so much of that comes from those types of conversations. It's about almost reflecting back. It's not about sort of me projecting onto other people what I think they should do. But in in listening to Dara, it was just so obvious to me when he kind of explained because, you know, the conversation started with us talking about Uber, I said I recommended you to the job.

然后他说，哦，真的吗？是啊。我甚至都没接电话。我就问，为什么不接呢？他回答说，嗯，我对这件事真的很开心。

And he said, oh, really? Yeah. I just didn't take call even. And I was like, Well, why not? And he was like, Well, I'm really happy about this thing.

我听着，实际上就让他继续说下去。他讲得越多，事情就越明显。他很满足。他生活在...他正切换到轻松档位。生活很美好。

I was listening, and I actually just let him keep talking. And the more he spoke, the more obvious it became. He was content. He lived in he was running on the downshifted down to the easy gear. Life was good.

这真的很简单。但他身上有种特质，你能从他的声音里听出来，好像在说，好吧，你一直在高速档运行。你想不想调到更极端的档位？为什么不去追求伟大？为什么不去挑战自己？

It was really easy. But there was an element of him, and you could hear it in his voice, where he's sort of like, okay, well, you've always been running on a higher gear. Do you wanna gear up even more to an extreme level? Why aren't you gonna go for greatness? Why aren't you gonna test yourself?

因为如果你成功了，这可能会非常了不起。而且你一生中真的没多少这样的机会。所以谈话大部分都围绕这个。但对另一个人，我可能会给出完全不同的建议，所以我不认为这是普遍真理。但我确实认为普遍的真理是，幸福追随影响力。

Because if you succeed, this could be huge. And you really don't get many of these chances in your life. And so much of the conversation was really around that. But with another person, I might have given a totally different piece of advice, so I don't think it's a universal truth. But I do think the universal truth is that happiness trails impact.

但影响力是高度个性化的。它可能是你内在的东西。可能是对他人产生影响。也可能是，你知道的，通过成为孩子眼中的好父亲来产生影响。我不假装知道我认为只有一种游戏可玩或生活有一条普遍真理。

But impact is something that's highly unique. It could be something innate in you. It could be having impact on other people. It could be, you know, having impacts by being a great father around your kids. I don't pretend to know that I think that there's one game to play or one universal truth to life.

我当然相信，对于像我这样的创业型人格，这确实是那些关键事项之一，就是要认真考虑影响力。

I certainly believe from entrepreneurial types that probably more to myself, like myself that this is sort of a one of those sort of key things is really consider impact.

我最钦佩丹尼尔·埃克的一点是他对提升技艺和改进产品的不懈奉献。这个使命他坚持了近二十年。很难否认Spotify是有史以来最精心打造的产品之一。丹尼尔和他的团队不断改进产品的精神让我想起了我的朋友卡里姆，他是Ramp的联合创始人兼首席技术官。卡里姆曾是金融领域最杰出的技术头脑之一。

One of the things I admire most about Daniel Ek is his relentless dedication to improving his craft and to improving his product. It's a mission that he's still on nearly two decades later. It'd be impossible to argue that Spotify isn't one of the most well crafted products ever created. And Daniel and his team's dedication to constantly improving their product reminds me a lot of my friend Kareem, who's the cofounder and CTO of Ramp. Kareem was one of the greatest technical minds working in finance.

我花了大量时间与卡里姆交谈，每次对话都围绕着他痴迷于打造高质量产品，并运用最新技术持续为客户创造更佳体验。卡里姆和丹尼尔都坚信没有什么是足够好的，一切总有改进空间。卡里姆领导着金融界最具才华的技术团队之一，他们通过快速、不懈的迭代让产品日臻完善。今年以来，Ramp已推出300多项新功能。Ramp全力投入运用人工智能优化客户体验，尽可能自动化处理企业财务事务。

I spent a lot of time talking to Kareem, and every single conversation centers around his obsession with crafting a high quality product and using the latest technology to constantly create better experiences for his customers. Kareem and Daniel both believe that nothing is ever good enough and that everything can always be improved. Kareem is running one of the most talented technical teams in finance, they use rapid, relentless iteration to make their product better every day. So far this year, Ramp has shipped over 300 new features. Ramp is completely committed to using AI to make a better experience for their customers and automate as much of your business's finances as possible.

事实上，卡里姆刚写道：'这些日子我满脑子都是AI。作为先行者突破极限是我们的责任，这样才能为客户创造极致的产品体验。'Ramp通过精湛工艺与快速迭代的结合为客户创新产品。全球众多增长最快、最具创新力的企业都在使用Ramp运营业务。请访问ramp.com了解他们如何助您省时省钱。

In fact, Kareem just wrote this, AI is all I think about these days. It is our duty to be first movers and push limits so we can make the greatest possible product experience for our customers. Ramp uses a combination of craftsmanship and rapid iteration to invent new products for their customers. Many of the fastest growing and most innovative companies in the world are running their business on Ramp. Make sure you go to ramp.com to learn how they can help your business save time and money.

让AI替你追踪票据、完成账目，这样你就能将时间和精力用于为客户创造卓越事物。因为归根结底，这一切都是为了打造能改善他人生活的产品或服务。这正是我在努力的，是丹尼尔·埃克毕生追求的事业，也是Ramp正在践行的。立即访问ramp.com开启旅程。

Let AI chase your receipts and close your books so you can use your time and energy building great things for your customers. Because at the end of the day, that is what this is all about, building a product or service that makes someone else's life better. That is what I'm trying to do. That is what Daniel Ek has dedicated his life to doing, and that is what Ramp has done too. Get started today by going to ramp.com.

你提到有些人安于现状所以不追求影响力。上次是什么时候？比如你现在显然不满足现状对吧？所以我有机会了解你一次。

You mentioned you thought some people don't go for Impact because they're content. When was the last time? Like, you're definitely not content now. Right? So I've gotten to know you once.

我们进行了长达数小时的交谈，这正是我想与你首先展开这场对话的原因。我很好奇你是否会这样说：'不，绝不。'我知道你内心有那种燃烧的渴望与火焰——在我看来，你外表冷静、表达清晰、彬彬有礼，但内心就像我常在书中读到的那种特质。

We've talked for hours and hours and hours, and this is why I wanted you to be the first person I had this conversation with. And I like and I was curious if you could say this. Like, no. No. I know you have this, like, inner burning desire and fire inside of you, which is to me, your outside is like, you're very calm, you're very articulate, and you're very polite, but you have that, like you the same thing I read in these books all the time.

就像这个人怀有达成使命的强烈渴望，是的，这就是我的理解方式。

It's just like this person was had a burning desire to achieve mission success is the way Yeah. Is the way I think about it.

是的。

Yeah.

你卖掉第一家公司后感到满足吗？那时候你才22、23岁左右。

Were you content after you sold your first company? You were, like, '22, 23.

用满足这个词很准确。我并不快乐，只是短暂地感到满足。当时我22岁，作为计算机极客，在感情方面一直不太顺利。

Well, content is the right word. I wasn't happy. So I was content for a moment of time. I was 22. I'd never had much much success with with women because I was a computer geek.

那时候计算机还不是世界上最酷的东西。我想着现在有了钱，世界观就变成了：我可以去夜店当个酷哥。确实逍遥了一阵子。

And back then, computers was not the coolest thing in the world. And, you know, so I was like, okay, well, now I've got all this money and, you know, this was my worldview. I can go out in nightclubs and I'm going to be the cool guy. And I had fun for a while. I'll tell you that.

但这种生活也异常空虚，因为我意识到这些女孩不是冲着我本人来的，而是因为我的地位。我用金钱买来了短暂的高光时刻，这给我上了重要一课。后来我整整一年多都没做任何事。

It also was incredibly hollowing because, you know, I realized that these girls weren't with me because of me. They were with me because, you know, I had status. And I was able to use money to buy status and be a cool guy for a small moment of time. And so that taught me a lot. Actually, you know, I kind of walked away for over a year not doing anything at all.

只是深刻反思人生方向。对我而言，1000万是个神奇数字，达到这个目标我就退休。我不断问自己...

And just sort of deeply reflecting on life, what I wanted to do, because for me, you know, I had a magic number, which was 10,000,000. If I got that number, I would retire. That was the goal. And I was thinking to myself

你设定这个数字时多大年纪？

How old were you when you came up with that number?

大概15岁吧。有人给了本《富爸爸穷爸爸》，我读了那本书。

Probably 15. Okay. You know, someone gave me, like, this book, Rich Dad Poor Dad, I think. I read it.

我觉得每个人都在同样的年纪明白这一点。

I think everybody gets it the same age.

是的。我读过。那对我来说真的具有开创性意义。所以我大概设定了那个数字。我对自己说，我真的很努力。

Yeah. I read it. It was, like, really seminal for me. So so I kinda made that number. I figured to myself, I worked really hard.

我原以为40岁才能达到。结果我22岁就实现了。所以这并不在计划之内，对吧？然后我就有点，好吧。

I could get there when I was 40. I was 22 when I got there. And so that wasn't really part of the plan. Right? And and so I I I kind of like, okay.

那么，接下来呢？我该做什么？因为我不再需要为钱工作了。

Well, what's next? What am I gonna do? Because I didn't have to work for money.

当你不再拥有自己的公司时，你抑郁了吗？你卖掉了它。你达到了原以为要花四十年才能实现的数字。现在你实现了，却整天泡在俱乐部里。

Were you depressed when you don't you you don't have your company anymore. You sold it. You have the number you thought it was gonna take you two you know, till four decades to reach. You reach it now. You're going to the clubs.

你意识到这些人甚至不是我的朋友。他们根本不在乎我

You're realizing these people aren't even my friends. They don't care about me at

是啊。

all. Yeah.

我觉得自己对世界毫无影响力。是的，我只是在消费，没有创造任何东西。这是我经常谈论的话题。

I'm there's no impact I'm making on the world. Yeah. I'm just consuming. I'm not producing anything. This is something I talk about all the time.

我认为我们有时存在一种病态文化，特别是在社交媒体上，人们美化消费行为。我不在乎你消费什么，我在乎你创造了什么。你该骄傲的不是有钱买奢侈品，而是你创造了什么？

Like, I think we have sometimes we have a sick culture where, like, people, especially on social media, they glorify, like, consumption. It's like, I don't care I don't care what you consume. I care what you produce. You should be proud not that you can't have money to buy an expensive thing. What did you make?

因为我对这个问题的思考方式总是很有趣——几百年来，传记中反复出现这种想法：人们总认为'我们已经走到尽头，没有机会了'。但每次人类都会突破极限，就像在说'这将是最后一家公司'。

Because the the way I think about this all the time, which is always fascinating, how many times this comes up in the biographies and for hundreds of years. People constantly think, like, oh, we've reached the end. There's no more opportunity. And just and every single time, humans keep saying, it's like, we can't. This is gonna be the last company.

这将是最后一次技术变革，这将是最后的发明。而我听过对商业最好的描述来自理查德·布兰森，他说：所有商业的本质都是让他人生活更美好的创意。嗯。

This is gonna be the last technological shift. This is gonna be the last invention. And the the best description of a business I've ever heard came from Richard Branson. And he said, all of businesses is an idea to make somebody else's life better. Mhmm.

如果用这个视角来看，你会发现机会和可能性是无限的，因为让别人的生活变得更好的方式有无数种，无论大小。

And if you look at it like that, it's like then you have infinite possibilities and opportunities all the time because there's infinite small and large ways to make other people's lives better.

完全同意。

100%.

那时候你并没有让任何人的生活变得更好，你只是在消费。嗯。你会觉得自己抑郁吗？你会怎么定义自己？

You weren't, at that time, making anybody else's life better. You were just kinda consuming. Like Yep. Would you consider yourself depressed? What would you consider yourself?

是的。说实话，那可能是我人生中最抑郁的时期。因为你知道，我从小就知道自己想做什么，这和我一起长大的大多数人都不同。我就是知道自己想创造东西。

Yeah. I it is probably the most depressed I've been in my life, to be honest. Because, you know, I I I knew from a very young age what I wanted to do, and it was unlike most other people that I grew up with. I just knew I wanted to build things.

你14岁左右就在做这些事了，对吧？

You were doing that when you were, like, 14. Right?

没错。但其实开始得更早。只是我当时不知道那叫开公司。我完全不懂财务、风投这些概念。但我就是在不断创造，我知道自己热爱电脑，知道自己想从事这方面，也确信能以某种方式靠这个谋生。

Yeah. But it started, like, even earlier than that. I just didn't know it was called a company. I had no idea what finances were or VC or any of these things. But I was just building things, and I knew I loved computers, and I knew I wanted to do that, and I I knew I would make a living doing that somehow.

这又是一件让我抓狂的事，因为我听到那些给创业者的建议——我讨厌这些建议，觉得糟糕透顶。我们本不该有这种创业生态，尤其当创业者接触的媒体内容大都来自投资人时，你们的激励结构和所有一切都截然不同。这和很多传记里的内容冲突，我宁愿相信那些传记作者或其他人。对吧？

This is another thing that, like, drives me insane because I I hear, like, other people's, like, advice to entrepreneurs, which I hate. I think it's, like, terrible. Like, we shouldn't have an entrepreneurial ecosystem, especially because most of the media that entrepreneurs are consuming are actually from investors, and you have wildly different incentive structure and everything else. And it just conflicts with a lot of stuff that's in the biographies, and I'll just go with those guys or anybody else. Right?

他们总是说些套话。我的信条是反复强调的一点——我奉为圭臬——信念先于能力。嗯。每个故事都是如此，比如我刚重读完索尼创始人的自传。

And they're always just like, yeah. You know, my my belief is something that I repeat. I'm murdering on this maxim, that belief comes before ability. Mhmm. That it's in these stories every single time you have somebody like, I just reread the the biography the autobiography of the founder of Sony.

1946年的盛田昭夫说：我们要在东京创立这家公司。对，就是被美军占领、刚遭燃烧弹轰炸后的东京。

K? Akio at the time was, we're gonna start this company in 1946 Yeah. In Tokyo Yeah. That's occupied by the Americans, that is complete has been firebombed.

没错。

Yep.

对吧？他正经过那里。他去上班的路上，经过的只是被烧成废墟的瓦砾，数百万日本人的家园。是的，超过一半的人口已经离开了这座城市。

Right? He's passing. He's going to work, and he's passing just burnt out rubble, millions of homes of Japanese. Yeah. More than half the population has left the city.

他们在一家被烧毁的百货商店里创立了后来成为索尼的公司，这是有史以来最成功、最具影响力的企业之一。书中最让我印象深刻的一个轶事是，他们需要在桌上放伞，因为下雨时雨水会从屋顶漏进来。

They start what turns out to be Sony, which is one of the most successful and influential companies of all time, in a burned out department store. One of my favorite anecdotes in the book is they they need to have umbrellas on their desks because when it rains, it comes through the roof.

哦，哇，确实。

Oh, wow. Yeah.

对吧？然而在他的书里，他说：即使在那时，我也毫不避讳地说，我知道自己有潜力，我能变得伟大，我能成就伟业。他在具备能力之前就拥有了信念。你说过，当时甚至不知道这叫创业，就开始着手创建事业。这就是我想问你的问题。

Right? And yet in his book, he says, I don't have a problem saying, even then, I knew I had potential, and I could be great, and I could do great things. He had the belief before the ability. You said, I don't even know it was called entrepreneurship, and I'm starting to build things. And this is the question I have for you.

你什么时候意识到自己很出色的？

When did you know you were good?

我...我不确定自己是否出色。我知道自己与众不同。但我有种近乎疯狂的信念，只要足够努力就能变强。顺便说，我现在依然这么认为。因为比较的参照系一直在变化。

I I don't know that I'm good. I know I'm different. And the but I have this sort of insane belief that I can get good if I try hard enough. And I still feel that way, by the way. Like, because the the comparative sets has changed.

对吧？比如早期是和全校同学比，后来是和斯德哥尔摩的同龄人比，再后来是和整个欧洲的人比。而现在，我不断将自己与这个时代最杰出的创业者们比较。显然我不认为自己和他们一样优秀，但我相信在某些方面，我与他们略有不同。

Right? Like, you know, it it was from everyone in my school, maybe in the early days, to everyone in Stockholm, some somewhat later, to everyone in Europe at some point. And now it's like the most brilliant entrepreneurs of our time that I'm constantly comparing myself to. And obviously, I don't believe that I'm as good as them. But I believe I am slightly different than them in some ways.

我相信，如果我在某件事上非常、非常努力地工作，我就能创造出真正伟大的东西。这就是我为自己设定的标准。对我来说，这其实也源于你之前提到的那个观点，即通过计算机实现的认知。史蒂夫·乔布斯有句名言，计算机是我们思维的自行车，这正是我成长过程中对计算机的感受。

And I believe that if I work really, really hard on something, I can make something really great. And that's the sort of bar that I keep for myself. And for me, it really stems also from sort of this notion back to what you were talking about, about sort of the realization that through computers. Right? Steve Jobs has has the saying, it's the bicycle of our mind, which was really how I felt about computers, like, growing up.

它就是一个神奇的工貝，让我能解决许多其他问题并创造新事物。

It's just this magic tool that allows me to solve so many other things and create things.

这就是我对播客的感觉。

That's how I feel about podcasts.

是的。所以，我知道我想做这件事。我也知道，我的联合创始人马丁经常说，一个公司的价值就是它解决的所有问题的总和。因此，我一直在做的就是，我拥有这个叫计算机的工具箱，世界上有这么多问题，我对解决哪些问题充满热情？

Yeah. And and and so, you know, I knew I wanted to do that. And I also knew that, you know, my cofounder, Martin, he he has this thing he keeps saying, the value of a company is the sum of all problems solved. And so what I keep doing is essentially, I've got this toolbox called a computer, and I got all these problems around the world. Which problems am I passionate about solving?

然后，哪些问题值得我花未来十年的时间去解决？因为如果我对某件事的兴趣不足以让我投入十年去解决它，那它可能就不值得追求。

And then which problems can I spend the next decade of my life fixing? Because if I'm interested enough in it to spend a decade fixing it, it's probably not worth pursuing.

这是我非常热衷的话题，因为想想看，没有人会为那些创办、扩张、出售公司，只做了五年的人写传记。我对那种事不感兴趣。我是说，我对你的初创公司不感兴趣，我感兴趣的是你最后一家公司，是你准备用余生去做的事。

This is something I'm super passionate about, because know, if you really think about, like, they don't write biographies about people that, like, start, scale, sell a company, and do it for like five years. I'm not interested in that. Like, I don't like, I mean, I'm not interested in your startup. I'm interested in your last company. I'm interested in something you're going to do for the rest of your life.

没错。这正是我汲取灵感的地方。就像你之前说的关于影响力和满足感，以及你愿意进入一个明知困难的领域。嗯。我喜欢杰夫·贝索斯对此的说法。

Yeah. And this is what I draw inspiration off of. It's just like going back to what you said earlier about impact and and contentment, and how, like, you're willing to go into an area where it's like, you know it's difficult. Mhmm. I love what Jeff Bezos said on this.

他就像这样，他告诉人们，在亚马逊初创时期他就常对员工说，我们要打造一个能让自己骄傲、能向孙辈讲述的事业。任何值得你自豪地向孙辈提起的事情，都不会是轻而易举的。

He's just like, he was he tells the people he used to tell people in Amazon at very beginning, he's like, we're trying to build something that we can be proud of, something that we can tell our grandkids about. Anything that you're going to be proud to tell your grandkids about is not going to be easy.

没错。

Right.

所以当时他预估成功率只有30%。Spotify刚成立时你们肯定也想过，搞不好最后还得去找工作，但这件事非做不可。对，就是那种发自内心的冲动。

So we're going into this with, he gave himself like a 30% chance of success. I think at the beginning of Spotify, you guys are hey, we're gonna I might have to get a job after this, but I have to do this. Yeah. Like, is inside of me. Yeah.

很多早期加入Spotify的人说，是因为丹尼尔不断强调他在打造一个长期事业。确实，早期肯定收到过收购邀约。

There's a bunch of people that say, the reason they joined Spotify in the early days is because Daniel would teach us and tell us that he's building for the long term. Yeah. So there had to be acquisition offers early on.

当然。

Sure.

那你们考虑过接受吗？比如

And did you ever consider them? Like

嗯...我考虑过，但不是为了钱。那时我已有足够维持生活的财富，明白吗？这种处境极具力量，它让我摆脱了许多束缚。

Well, I I considered them, but not for money. I considered them because I already had the money that I thought I needed in my life. Right? And and that was an incredibly powerful position to be in. It was freeing me of a lot a lot of constraints.

对我来说，更多的是，你知道，当我们被接洽时，问题总是：这件事能否推动我们的使命？如果我真的相信存在一家能推进我们使命、并且和我们一样在乎这些事的公司，我可能会选择出售。但我从未找到这样的公司。正因如此，我们才继续前行。当时我并不明确这会成为我坚持二十年的事业。

And for me, it was more, you know, as as we got approached, it was always about can this thing further our mission? And if I truly believed that that there would have been a company that could further our mission and cared about what we cared about as much as we did, I probably would have sold. But I never found that. And because I didn't find that, I we just kept going. And it wasn't obvious to me that this would be, like, something I would do for twenty years.

我可以明确告诉你这点。但我知道的是，在此之前我已经做过很多项目。我们提到过我曾出售的一家公司，但那其实是我的第四或第五个项目。我一直在并行推进多项事务。

I'll tell you that. But what I did did know is that, you know, I came from doing lots of projects beforehand. And so sort of, you know, we talked about the one company I did sell, but I that was like my fourth or fifth one. So I'd been doing a bunch of other things, and I was doing many things in parallel.

那么你现在还继续做哪些事呢？

And What do still do today?

嗯，我又开始重操旧业了，这是完全不同的领域。顺便说，我认为现在判断这是好主意还是坏主意还为时过早。

Well, I started doing again, which is a very different thing. And and I still think the jury's out, by the way, on whether that's a good idea or a bad idea.

详细说说。

Explain.

你看，我再次...我坚信将全部时间和精力聚焦于一件事，痴迷到几乎忘却外界其他事物的程度，正是成就伟大的关键。我知道你深有体会。是的，Spotify就是这样诞生的——至少有十五年时间，我根本无暇顾及其他任何事。

Well, you know, I I again, I I I do believe that focusing all your time and effort on this one thing and obsess about it, and almost to the point where you're not even aware of the rest of the world that goes on is what creates greatness. And I know you can relate to this. Yeah. But that that's how Spotify came to be. I literally couldn't care about anything else for, at the very least, the first fifteen years.

直到现在，我才敢天真地认为：你知道吗？或许我确实能再次同时处理多项事务，这有点像我二十多岁时的作风。

Only now am I foolish enough to believe that actually, you know what? I might be able to do multiple things at the same time again, which was sort of my spirit in my twenties.

这是否与你之前说的你可能更适合当教练而非球员的观点有关？

Is that connected to what you were saying earlier that you might be a better you think you might be a better coach than player?

是的，我确实这么认为。因为我的领导风格与大多数我们仰望的企业家截然不同，无论是史蒂夫·乔布斯还是埃隆·马斯克等等。我觉得自己与他们只有模糊的相似之处，但那不是我。我是完全不同的企业家类型。

Yeah. I I I certainly think so. And and because my leadership style is so different than many of these these sort of entrepreneurs that most of us sort of look up to and hail, whether it's the Steve Jobs' or Elon Musk's, etcetera. I just don't feel like there there's a vague resemblance with them, but it's just not me. It's like I'm I'm a very different archetype of entrepreneur.

我们之前短信讨论过这个，现在应该直接谈谈。对，免得忘记。我们提到或许该探讨不同类型的企业家，因为世界上很可能存在年轻的丹尼尔·奥克（注：指代某类创业者），这是必然的。

We were texting back and forth about this, so we should just talk about this now Yeah. So we don't forget. We were talking about, like, maybe we should talk about, like, the archetypes different archetypes of entrepreneurs because, like, there could be, you know, there could be somebody like a young there's undoubtedly a young Daniel Ock out there. Right? We just know that that's gonna happen.

有件很棒的事——我有点痴迷迈克尔·乔丹。他是我手机锁屏和联系人头像，所以别人发信息给我时，会看到乔丹瞪着眼睛的样子。

There's this great thing. I'm I'm slightly obsessed with Michael Jordan. He's the he's the the lock screen on my phone. He's my contact card. So when people, like, they start texting me, it's like Michael Jordan with his eyes like this.

就像在定调子对吧？乔丹说过一句名言，在他职业生涯末期科比崛起时，人们总在讨论谁会是下一个乔丹——特雷西·麦克格雷迪或其他人。

Like Yeah. I'm kinda setting the tone. Yeah. He said this great thing because, know, at the end of his career, it's the rise of Kobe Bryant. Yeah.

但乔丹回应道：首先，你们不必寻找下一个乔丹，因为当初也不是你们发现的我。

And everybody's the end of his career, they were, like, obsessed. Like, oh, Tracy McGrady is gonna be the next Michael Jordan, and this guy's gonna be the next Michael Jordan. This guy's next Michael Jordan. And he's like, first he's like, you don't have to worry about finding the next Michael Jordan. He goes, first of all, you didn't find me.

我只是恰好出现了。是的，这种情况会再次发生。不需要刻意寻找下一个人，他们自然会出现。

I just happened to come along. Yep. And that will happen again. You don't have to find that next person. They will come along.

我常说它们终将自我显现。所以这确实令人着迷，却无人谈及。再次强调，与你对话的奇妙之处——绝非贬义——在于你总说出他人未言之语。我不禁疑惑：为何丹尼尔这些独特理念未被更多人理解知晓？仿佛无人关注这些原型。

And I always say they will reveal themselves. So I do think this is fascinating, and no one else talks about this. Again, the weird thing about talking to you, and I don't mean that in a pejorative, it's like you just say stuff that no one else says. And then I'm like, why isn't why don't more people understand like, know about Daniel's very unique ideas? Like, no one's concerned about the archetypes.

所有人都在说'我们得成为乔布斯那样'，'得效仿马斯克'。而你的观点是：不，存在多种不同原型。显然，我可能比世界上任何人都更深入研究过这点，事实清晰可见。

Everybody's like, oh, we just have to be like Steve Jobs. We just have to be like Elon. Yeah. And your point is like, no, there's like multiple different archetypes. Obviously, like, I've studied this maybe more than anybody else in the world, it's very clear that there are.

然而他们都狭隘地聚焦于单一路径。米努之前就反复讨论过这点——声称'创始人就该这样经营公司'简直荒谬，你在2021年Spotify系列中就说过。我们有过类似对话，这正是我一贯的观点：这与创始人的个性息息相关。

And yet, they're all kind of narrowly focused on this is the one path. And Meenu went over this back and forth before. It's just like, it's so ridiculous to say, like, there is this is the way founders should run their company because you said it back in 2021 in that series, Spotify, we've had conversations like this. This is something I always say. It's like, it's tied to the personality of founder.

完全同意。

100%.

听着，除非建议与个人特质结合，否则全是废话。百分百赞同。Spotify就是你的镜像。现在我想聊聊你给我的另一个绝妙观点——最近听到贝索斯也呼应说，孩子成长与公司发展存在相似性。

Like, the advice is fucking useless unless it's tied to who you are as a person. 100%. Spotify is a reflection of you. 100%. Now, I do want to talk also about this other great idea that you gave me, and then now I heard Jeff Bezos echo recently about the fact that there's similarities between, like, the way your child develops and the way the company develops.

嗯，这非常有意思。但请解释下，你为何要开启关于不同创始人原型这个话题？

Mhmm. That that was very fascinating. Yeah. But where are you, like explain why you would even wanna broach the subject of, like, talking more about the different founder archetypes.

作为年轻创业者，我和多数人一样曾痴迷于某位企业家，因他们具备我所缺乏的特质而仰慕。我们阅读所有关于他们管理公司、生活方式、日常习惯的传记或报道。就我而言，确实尝试过模仿乔布斯、贝索斯、盖茨等传奇人物，包括星巴克舒尔茨这样极具魅力的——我向所有人学习，某种程度上试图复制他们。

Well, I I I think, you know, again, as a young entrepreneur myself, I went through the book like so many of us by becoming enamored by an entrepreneur and looking up to them, in many cases because they had traits that I didn't have. And so we read all these stories, whether it's biographies or or articles about how they manage their company and how how they live their lives and the routines that they have. And certainly, in my case, like, you know, I certainly tried to mimic Steve Jobs. I certainly tried to mimic Basis and Gates and all of the great ones, the very charismatic ones like Howard Schultz of Starbucks. I've I've I've learned from all of them, and in a way, I've tried to imitate them.

对吧？因为我曾认为他们在自己的领域非常出色。但每次接触后我都感到幻灭，因为我意识到，显然，那些方法并不适合我。所以这种关于成功典范的想法就像是，我敢打赌现在有很多创业者读到马克·扎克伯格、黄仁勋这类人的故事时，会觉得自己永远无法企及。

Right? Because I've thought that they were so great at what they do. But every single time I've walked away being disillusioned because I realized, obviously, that it didn't work for me. And so this this sort of idea of this archetype is like, I bet you that there's plenty of entrepreneurs out there that read about currently, whether it's Mark Zuckerberg or Jensen or any of these things, and they're like, that's not me. So I guess I'm not as good as them.

既然我做不到他们那样，显然我就没有那种天赋。你说这是创业者最艰难的课题——而且与普通人面临的自我认知困境截然不同，虽然普通人也会经历这个过程——我觉得这个观点非常精准。

And I can't do what they're doing, so clearly, I don't have it in me. I think you're you were spot on when you said it's like the hardest single thing really for a founder and entrepreneur in in a much different way, I think, than a normal person, but I think every normal person goes through this, is finding yourself.

这正是我刚记下的观点。再说一次，这更像是对话式访谈，毕竟我是个糟糕的采访者，更爱自己滔滔不绝。老天，干脆让我做单人脱口秀算了。

That's literally what I just wrote down. So I don't want again, this is more of a conversation interview because I'm I'm a terrible interviewer, and I love to talk. Yeah. Sure. Do a monologue show for god's sake.

但我也有这个理论，因为书里写得很明显。就像存在一个关于少年天才企业家的神话。如果你去读所有传记，会发现他们年轻时绝非无所事事。

But I had this theory too because it's obvious in the books. Like, there there's this, like, myth. It's like of, like, the genius young entrepreneur. Yeah. And if you go and read all the biographies, they weren't, like, laying about doing nothing when they were younger.

不。但很明显，纵观史蒂夫·乔布斯、恩佐·法拉利、盛田昭夫、山姆·沃尔顿、雅诗·兰黛、可可·香奈儿、埃德温·兰德这些人，他们最杰出的成就都诞生在更年长的阶段。

No. But I it's very clear, if you look at all of them, Steve Jobs, Enzo Ferrari, Akia Morita, Sam Walton, Estee Lauder, Coco Chanel, Edwin Land, they do their best work when they're much older.

嗯。

Mhmm.

所以我反复思考过这个问题。天啊，这就像个不断重演的规律。有些人甚至是在四五十岁时才迎来事业巅峰，他们...

And so I I would I thought a lot about them. Like, dang, this is like a reoccurring thing over and over again. Some cases are in their forties, 50 years old, and they're

处于巅峰状态。是的。

at the top of their game. Yep.

然后我在想，这到底是什么？好吧，显然，这是一种技能组合，所以你可以多加练习。嗯。你有更多经验，就能做出更好的决策。

And I and then, you know, I was wondering, like, what is this? Okay. Well, obviously, like, is some some skill set so you can, like, practice more. Mhmm. You have more experience, so then you can make better decisions.

你有更好的人脉。你有资源。你拥有这一切。但有一点我深信不疑却无法证明，那就是因为他们更了解自己。想想你在四十出头时对自己的了解，比起23岁时要深刻得多。

You have a better network. You have resources. You have all that. But one thing that I believe that I cannot prove, but I believe with every bone in my body, it's like because you know they knew themselves much more. Like, think about the way you know yourself in your early forties than you did when you were 23.

我们23岁时自以为懂很多。其实一无所知。不。即使最聪明的23岁年轻人也不了解自己。这需要时间和经历来沉淀。

We thought when we were 23 Yeah. You don't know anything. No. Even the most brilliant 23 year old does not know themselves. You need that that comes through time and experience.

是的。就像，不。不。这是我从迈克尔·戴尔的自传中学到的，那本书很棒。我以前常说，他们建立的公司是忠于自我的。

Yeah. And it's like, no. No. This is something I learned from Michael Dell's autobiography, which was excellent. I used to say it's like they build a company that's authentic to them.

没错。100%同意。

Yep. 100%.

他还说...他用他的方式描述他们建立的公司是自然而然

He also he the way he says they build a company that's natural to

他们。没错。

them. Right.

你无法建立一个真正适合自己的公司。没错。如果你连自己是谁都不清楚的话。百分百如此。所以我有个信念就是，你——而且我觉得，你的成就简直惊人。我知道你喜欢轻描淡写，这只是因为你非常谦逊有礼。

And you can't build a company that's natural to you Right. If you don't know who you are. 100%. And so I have this belief that's like, you're and I think, like, your accomplishments are freaking crazy. And I know you like to downplay them, and it's just because you're very polite and everything else.

我之前看了一个你的搞笑采访，他们提到说你是斯堪的纳维亚有史以来最成功的人。你的言辞很礼貌，但你的表情——哦，就像有人戳了你一下。你好像在说'哦，我不想被这样定义'。但我懂那个表情，我完全明白你的潜台词。

I saw was watching this funny interview with you, and they they mentioned something like, you're the most successful person to ever come out of Scandinavia. And your face, your words were very polite, but your face oh, it's like somebody pokes you. You're like, oh, I don't wanna be, like, described that. But your but your response is like, I know that face. I know exactly what you what you said.

但这个观点是，你就像是你所有经历的集合体。对吧？这是一种教育形式，而另一种教育形式就像——我去过你家，可能有点冒昧地翻过你的藏书，但我超爱你也痴迷历史和哲学的样子。是的。我当时就想，这是个对外部世界充满好奇心的人。

But this idea that, like, the the you are the sum of, like, your accumulated experiences Yeah. Right? That is one form of education, but the form of education is like, I know I went to your house, I rummaged through your library, maybe kind of rudely, but I love how you're obsessed with history and philosophy too. Yeah. And I was like, oh, this is a person that's he's curious about the external world.

嗯。

Mhmm.

但他同时也想弄明白，自己是谁，什么对他才是重要的。

But he also wants to know, like, who he is, what's important to him.

噢，确实。

Oh, yeah.

然后围绕这个建立业务和体系。我想先说明这点，因为你提到类似的事情——虽然我不认为应该频繁讨论这个，但我深信不疑的是：当你更了解自己真正想做什么时，你的创业能力就会提升。

And then building a business and an apparatus around that. So I just wanted to get that out, because you mentioned something like, I don't think I should probably talk about it more frequently, but something I definitely believe. It's like you're going to get better at entrepreneurship when you get better at knowing who you are and what you actually want to do.

百分之百同意。正如你所说，我现在追求的就是成为最好的自己。这个最好的版本将比以往产生更大影响，因为它会更真实地反映我是谁。

A 100%. And and as as you say, it's like, you know, I I I think the the game I'm playing now is just being the best version of myself. And the best version of myself is one that will have even more impact than the one that that had before because it will be even more true to who I am.

那么你的原型是什么？我的意思是，你自己清楚吗？

So what is your archetype? I mean, do you even know?

不，我不清楚。正因如此我才请教你，因为我认为世界上没有人比你更了解各种不同的原型。我仍在学习如何更好地玩这场游戏——如果这么说合理的话。

No. I I I don't know, which is why I was asking you because I I I figured who's who's the person in the world that probably has a better idea of, like, all the different archetypes. Because you I can still learn how how to, like, you know, do the game better, if that makes sense.

我发现一个很有趣的现象。众所周知，历史上最伟大的企业家都研究过历史上其他伟大企业家。如果你做相关播客，就能接触到当代的这类人物。令我震惊的是——我自己也如此——存在各种盲点。我们第一次共进晚餐时你就指出了这点，虽然很委婉，但意思很明确：你在自我欺骗。

I would say there's a very interesting idea and that I've noticed. You know, obviously, like, there's this maximized over and over again that all of history's greatest entrepreneurs study history's greatest entrepreneurs. And if you make a podcast on that, get to meet the the living versions of that now. And what I'm struck by, and I'm like this myself, I have all kinds of blind spots, which you, like, picked away the first time we had dinner, and you're just like, you're doing this wrong. And you were very polite, but you're just like, you're lying to yourself.

你不是...你看，你痴迷于此，却像绑着一只手在战斗。但正如你所说，这太神奇了。嗯。他们几乎就像需要一面镜子。

You're not like, you know, you're you're obsessed with this, and you're, like, fighting with a hand behind the back. But I'm so amazed. It's exactly what you said. It's like Mhmm. It's almost like they need a mirror.

我还见过几次另一个绝妙主意——真正新颖的想法：雇佣付费批评者。比如索尼在制造音频设备时...

So there there's another great idea that I've seen a few times. One of the truly novel idea. It's this idea of hiring a paid critic. So Sony is making, you know, audio equipment.

这是

This is

就像五十年代那样。这些设备非常原始。他们意识到后聘请了一位年轻的声乐艺术学生，我不知道怎么念他的名字，大概是Noria Ogash之类的。他们这么做的原因是因为他是早期索尼产品的粉丝。

like in the fifties. This is like and they're very primitive devices. And what they realized was they they hired a young vocal arts student, and I don't know how to pronounce his name. Noria Ogash, something like that. And the reason they did that is because he was a fan of early Sony products Yeah.

但他同时具备极其精细挑剔的品味。所以他直言不讳地指出问题，他说：'我是索尼的忠实粉丝，但你们的产品还不够好，存在诸多缺陷。'而天才般的Akhil回应道：'我们雇他当付费批评家。'

But he also had very fine, refined taste and everything else. Great. And so he would just light them up about, he's like, I'm a big fan of Sony, but your products aren't good enough. Have all these deficiencies. And Akhil, being the genius that he was, he goes, we hired him as a paid critic.

他的工作就是攻击我们产品的缺陷，因为连我们自己都看不到这些缺点。作为付费批评家，他的观点是：'如果你是芭蕾舞者，你需要镜子对吧？镜子告诉你动作是否正确，需要改进什么。'

His job was to attack the deficiencies in our product because we don't even see them. And he paid critic, his point was that, hey, if you're a ballet dancer, you have a mirror. Right? Your mirror tells you whether what what you're doing right, what you can fix Yep. Like, your what you need to do.

他说：'我就是你们的口头镜子。'后来到1986年这本书出版时，那位付费批评家已成为索尼总裁。我完全认同这种方式——我们需要一面镜子。

He's like, I'm your oral mirror. Yep. And then fast forward to when the book is published in, like, 1986, that paid critic is now the president of Sony. And I feel exactly I'm this way. It's like, we need a mirror.

是啊。

Yeah.

我好奇的是，记得最近和Mike Oviets共进晚餐时，他写的自传堪称最优秀的企业家自传之一，因为他毫不避讳地讲述了那些糟糕的经历。

And I think what's what I'm curious about with you is, like, I remember I just had dinner with Mike Oviets. And, you know, he's he I think his autobiography is one of the best entrepreneur autobiographies ever written because he tells you about the bad shit.

嗯。

Mhmm.

事实上他并不喜欢真实的自己。他抑郁了，正因他人的看法而做出错误决定——这是创业者的大忌。是啊，最让我震惊的是，他在25岁甚至27岁创办CA时，竟然还不了解自己。

The fact that he was didn't like who he was. He was depressed. He was doing this making bad decisions based on the opinions of other people, which entrepreneurs cannot do. Yeah. And I was struck by, like, the fact that he didn't know himself at, you know, 25 or trying I think he was 27 when he's when he started CA.

但如今快80岁的他显然已通透自知。我曾问他——要知道有些人已和他保持了25年友谊——我就直截了当问：为什么？

Sure as hell knows himself as, like, almost an 80 year old man. But I asked him about, you know, he's had some people I know have been friends with him for twenty five years. And I was just like, why?

你觉得

What do

维系这种关系的关键是什么？他回答说：因为他会对我讲真话。他解释道，像他这样既出名又富有的人，日常接触的多是下属员工，这种处境其实很危险。他说：我生命中敢讲真话的人寥寥无几。

you think has enabled you to maintain that relationship? And he said, he tells me the truth. And he said, you get into my position where, you know, he's famous, he's wealthy, most of the people that he interacts with are on his staff. And he's like, you it's very dangerous. And he said, he's like, there's not many people in my life that tell me the truth.

没错。谁会对你说真话？

Yep. Who tells you the truth?

很多人，这对我来说是件幸事。从家人开始，比如我母亲。她就是个再普通不过的人，虽然为我的成就骄傲，但总带着种疏离感。她根本不在乎这些成就的影响力。

Many people, which is the good news for me. You know, it starts with my family, my mom. You know, my mom is the most normal person you would be. She she's proud of my accomplishments, but in in sort of the standoffish way. She couldn't care anything about the impact of it.

更像是，我为自己克服了她知道对我很重要的障碍。所以很多时候

It is more like that I've overcome obstacles for myself that she knows matters to me. So oftentimes

那很棒。

That's great.

是的。而且很多时候，比如，当我可能把问题带回家时，因为她并不真正了解商业世界发生了什么，也不关心，她会给我这样一种反馈：生活中大部分事情其实并不围绕科技或商业世界等。这就是生活。所以这很棒。我有一个非常亲密的朋友雅克，他在我生活中也扮演着类似的角色。

Yeah. And and so oftentimes, like, when when I may bring an issue home, because she doesn't really know what's going on in the business world and she doesn't really care, she kind of gives me this mirror back where most of life actually doesn't revolve around technology or the business world, etc. It's like, this is the life. So that's a great one. I have a very dear friend, Jacques, who very similarly placed that part in my life.

他是最真实的人。我妻子也是这样的人。你见过的古斯塔夫也是。他会告诉我真相，即使我不想听。是的，我非常幸运，刚才提到的许多人已经陪伴我二十年了。

He's the most realest person there is. My wife is another one. Gustav that you met is another person. He will tell me the truth even when I don't want to hear it. And, yeah, I've been incredibly fortunate that, like, many of the people I just talked about are people that have been around me for twenty years.

我母亲显然陪伴了我一生。但这些人中的许多已经在我身边很久很久了。我认为信任是最被低估的话题之一，因为它难以规模化。它极其困难。这是大多数组织崩溃的首要原因，也是为什么你需要流程和其他官僚体系的根本原因——因为缺乏信任。

My mom, obviously, my entire life. But many of these people have been around for a very, very long time. And think that's I really believe trust is one of the most under talked about things, because it's not easy to scale. And it's incredibly hard. It's the number one thing why most organizations break down and why you need processes and all the other bureaucracies, ultimately, because there's no trust.

如果有100%的信任，你根本不需要这些东西，而且效率会高得多。

If you had a 100% trust, you wouldn't need any of this stuff, and you would move much faster.

这太疯狂了。芒格，我每周都能收到邮件问：为什么每期节目都提查理·芒格？我说：因为他是我见过最有智慧的人。你想让我怎么办？

It's crazy. Munger, again, like, I I could literally get emails every week. They're like, why do you mention Charlie Munger on every episode? I'm like, because he's the wisest person I've ever come across. What do want me to do?

比如，我很抱歉他有这么多好点子。但他又说了些话，他是那种一旦指出某件事，就会让人觉得显而易见，但之前却没人注意到的人。他说，信任是世界上最强大的经济力量之一。他还谈到，就像我有幸与他共进晚餐时他说的，你的工作就是与优秀的人建立一个无缝衔接的、值得信赖的网络。

Like, I'm sorry he has so many good ideas. But he said something again, and he's another person where he, like, points things out that once he says it, it's obvious, but no one else does it. And he goes, trust is one of the greatest economic forces in the world. And he talked about that, like, your job, when I actually got to have dinner with him, he's like, your job is to build a seamless web of deserved trust with great people.

百分百同意。

100%.

他还说，这不仅仅是他在讲故事，比如大家都知道，我在他28岁、我35岁时遇见了巴菲特。他们不明白当时我们周围还有其他人。是的。我们建立了友谊并一直合作。到我遇见他时，那些人大多已离世。但这个观点——信任是世界上最强大的经济力量之一——确实如此。

And he's like, that's not he was telling stories like, everybody knows that, you know, I met Buffet when I was when he was 28 and I was 35. They don't understand there's all these other guys around us Yep. And we built friendships and did deals forever. Most of them had passed away by the time I met him. But that idea, it's like trust is one of the greatest economic forces in the world.

确实如此。仔细想想，为什么这如此罕见？因为它无法规模化。信任是一种长期积累的行为，它会随着时间的推移不断叠加，真的会产生复利效应。

It truly is. And if you think about it, why is that so rare? It's because it doesn't scale. So trust is this notion that you'll keep doing actions that will ladder up over time. It really compounds.

但每次积极的互动可能只会增加1%的信任，而一次糟糕的互动就足以毁掉全部。当你开始怀疑是否还能信任某人时，信任就已经不存在了。关键在于，信任是绝对的。仔细想想，这其实是一种终极的渐变过程。

But you're gonna add maybe 1% of trust for each positive interaction you're gonna do. But it takes one interaction that's bad to ruin all of it. The moment where you where you even start doubting whether you can trust someone or not, you have no trust. So the point being is, it's like absolute trust. If you really think about it, there's this sort of final gradient.

大多数人把它定义为非此即彼的事情，但其实并非如此。就像大多数人会说，我要么信任某人，要么不信任。但即使你信任某人，信任也有程度之分。有多少人你会放心托付你的妻子？有多少人你会放心托付你的银行账户？

Most people define it as this binary thing, but it really isn't. It's really kind of like, you know, what most people will say is either I trust someone or I don't. But even, let's say you do trust someone, there's degrees of trusting someone. How many people do you trust with your wife? How many people do you trust with your bank account?

直接交给他们。

Just handing it over.

不过你是个容易信任别人的人吗？

Are you a trusting person though?

在某种程度上算是。

To a certain degree.

我觉得这个问题嘛，就像认识我的人所了解的那样。其实我今天刚和一位好友共进早餐，他年纪稍长，但总会直言不讳。他为人很好，但会指出那些可能阻碍我达成目标的毛病。嗯...他提到的一点是，如果让我自问这个问题，我可能会回答'我不信任任何人'。

I think that's one that, like from what people that know me. So I have I actually had breakfast with a a good friend of mine, and, you know, he he's slightly older, but he tell he tells me the truth. And he is very nice, but he'll point out the problems that, like, are going to stop me from going to where I wanna go. Mhmm. And one of his points because I would answer like, if I asked that question myself, I like, don't trust anybody.

是啊。不过我觉得自己在这方面有所改善，但我担心这种不信任会成为我最大的绊脚石，就像...我始终无法释怀。

Yeah. But I think I'm getting a little better with that, but I am concerned that, like, I'm gonna be one of my own worst enemies because of this, like, I can't let go.

是的。但你看，你谈到自己的童年经历。拿我来说，我确实在单亲家庭长大，但我有位最慈爱的母亲。

Yeah. But look. I mean, you you talked about yourself. You it started in your childhood. Like, in my case, I grew up without a father for sure, But I have the most loving mother.

她给予了我一切。有这样的成长起点，让我始终觉得无论做什么、遭遇什么失败，她都会爱我。怀揣着这份底气，我认为你的人生出发点自然与我不同——我猜你的童年经历应该很不一样对吧？所以我对生活的态度就是：当然，我并非盲目信任所有人，但我选择相信，信任能让生活比充满猜忌更有趣、更丰盈、更有意义。

She gave me everything. To have that start in my life, I've always felt that whatever I do, whatever the failure is, she will always love me. And to have that in your back pocket, I think it means you automatically come from a different vantage point than what I believe you had in your childhood. Right? And then my approach to life is just like, okay, well, know, by again, I'm not saying I have absolute trust in every person, but I choose to believe that trusting people makes for a much more fun, rich and rewarding life than one that doesn't.

而且我相信我

And I believe that I

我想我完全同意你的看法。

think I think you're definitely right about that.

是的。而且我相信，与他人同行的人生旅程比单打独斗更有趣。这并不意味着我不享受独处时光、个人舒适或孤独——我也有这部分性格，这就是我性格中的双重性。但我深信，这又回到了哲学层面：我给予得越多，收获就越多。

Yeah. And and and I believe that a life is more fun doing the journey with other people around that than doing it in single player mode. And that doesn't mean that I'm not also a person that likes my own spare time, my own comfort, my own solitude. I have that part, and that's the duality in my personality. But I really do believe, and it it will go back to philosophy, but the more I give away, the more I get back.

所以我一直专注于这样做。对我而言，现阶段最重要的影响就是——正如我说过的——我想成为有史以来最棒的教练，也许是最佳创业教练，这可能就是我的原型，但

And and so I just keep focused on doing that. And for me, the ultimate impact at this point, why I said, you know, I'd like to be the best coach there ever was, the best entrepreneur coach, maybe that's my archetype, but

嗯。

Yeah.

其次才是参与者。因为过去十五年间，我与这些人共同打造了Spotify等事业，见证他们的成功、影响力和成长，这才是如今最让我自豪的事。其他一切真的不重要。比如金钱，我根本不在乎。那不重要。拥有大量资金作为货币固然好，但更重要的是能产生更大影响。

Then then a player, because I've come to see that these people that I've done Spotify with for the past fifteen years, as an example, seeing their success, seeing their impact, seeing their growth, is the thing that gives me the most amount of pride at this point. It really isn't anything else. Like, you know, financially, I couldn't care. Not that important. It's great to have a lot of money to have as a currency, to then have more impact.

这意味着桌上有更多筹码去做更新颖、更酷、更有趣的事。但对我来说，真正重要的是建立的友谊，是他人对我的信任——允许我在这段旅程中帮助他们，也帮助我自己，让我们共同前行。这种情景我已见证太多次。当然也曾因此受伤，当有人辜负我给予的信任时。

It's more ships on the table to do new, more cool, interesting stuff. But but the real thing for me will be the friendships that I built, you know, the the trust that other people placed in me to allow me to help them on this journey, help me on my journey, and us doing it together. And I've just seen it so many times. I've been burned by it for sure. Sometimes when people have broken that trust that I put in them.

但老实说，与所有积极成果相比，负面经历只占1%到2%的比例。

But I will honestly say that's been like one or 2% negative experience relative to all the positive things that come out

关于这一点，可悲的是，我想不出在过去二十年里有谁真正背叛过我。是的。所以这就像是我在虚构一个问题，一个可能曾经存在但现在已经不复存在的假想问题。而这里我认为，再次强调，这真的很有帮助——我不需要很多，你知道，我不相信红牛创始人有什么至理名言，虽然我对他有点着迷，而且我为制作关于他的那一期节目感到非常自豪，因为我们不得不进行字面翻译。

of it. The sad part with this, I can't think of anybody that's like betrayed me in like two decades. Yeah. So it's like, I'm just making up this problem, this imaginary problem that maybe used to exist, but certainly isn't exists now. And this is where I think it's it's really, like, helpful to again, I don't need a bunch, you know, I don't I don't believe there's a great quote from the founder of Red Bull, who I came slightly obsessed with, and I'm really proud of the episode I made on him because, like, we had to literally translate.

当时没有英文传记，我们是从德语翻译过来的传记。他的观点就是：我不需要50个朋友。我相信更少、更好、更深的关系。是的。只要你能正确做出这些选择，你知道，我实在想不出生活中有谁不希望我过得好。

There was no biographies in English, and that we had translated biographies from German. And his point was just like, I don't need 50 friends. Like, I believe in much, like, fewer and better and deeper. Yeah. And as long as you make those, like, choices correctly, you know, again, like, I can't think of a single person that I feel is in my life that doesn't want the best for me.

是啊。但即便如此，我还是会有这种想法，比如：哦，我还是自己搞定一切吧。是的。关于这点，你说的另一件让我很惊讶的事是，当人们问我时，他们显然知道丹尼尔是谁。我用Spotify。

Yeah. And yet, I still have this, like, oh, like, I'll just do it all myself. Yeah. Very to this, another thing that, like, you said that really surprised me is, like, when people ask me, they're like, obviously, I who Daniel is. I use Spotify.

我知道所有动态。但是，为什么你总是提到他？我在播客里提到你时说过，哦，因为我从你那里学到了很多。你对人生所求非常非常谨慎。而且我有机会见到一些相当疯狂的人。

I know everything going on. But, like, why do you talk about him so much? And I, like, mentioned you on the podcast and and, like, I was like, oh, because I learned a lot from you. You're very, very careful what you want in life. Like and I get to meet pretty crazy people.

大多数时候他们都很好。但你会发现他们身上有很多负面特质。其一，令人震惊的是他们几乎没什么朋友。

And most of the times, like, it's they're great. But then you see, like, there's, like, a lot of negativity to them. One, there's a shocking amount that have very few if no friends

是啊。

Yeah.

这让我感到害怕。然后他们和你互动的方式就像对待资产一样。嗯。一旦我榨干了这份资产的价值，就会把你抛弃。而我觉得这些人几乎毫无知识上的谦逊。

Which is scary to me. And then they kinda, like, interact with you as if, like, you're, like, a asset. Mhmm. And once I suck that asset, like, get everything out of the asset, then, like, you will be disposed. And I feel the same people that do that have almost no intellectual humility.

对吧？我常说，我读到的每个人似乎都比我聪明、比我高效。我看待这个世界的方式也大抵如此，就像托马斯·爱迪生有句名言说的：我们所知的不过是未知的千万分之一。确实如此。

Right? Where I always say it's like every single person I read about is smarter and more productive than I am. The way I look at this, the world in general, is very much in the same way, like, Thomas Edison has this great quote. He's like, we know what we don't know one one thousandth of percent of anything. Yeah.

这就是我的感受。因为每天我都能学到新东西，然后就会想——

And that's the way I feel. It's because every day, I learn something new. I'm like

是啊。

Yeah.

我将来肯定会觉得现在的自己蠢透了。你有着极高的知识谦逊度——不知道多少人意识到这点——比如你会去实地跟随观察，花时间...不知道你们有没有专门术语来形容这种行为。

I'm gonna be I was so stupid back then. Yeah. You have extreme levels of intellectual humility. I don't even know if many people know this, but, like, you would, like, go and shadow and spend time. I don't know if you have a term for this.

就直接打电话给某公司负责人说：什么？我要来旁听你们所有的会议？

You just, like, call up somebody that's running a company and say, what? I'm gonna come and sit on every single one of your meetings?

对，基本就是这样。归根结底...老实说，我不认为自己懂得很多。

Yeah. Pretty much. Like, that that that's how it goes. And and and look, it comes back to this. I mean, I I don't believe that I know much.

让我快速铺垫一下背景：按你的说法就是——'我去给他们端咖啡都行'，'没错'，'我完全不在意'，'是的'。

Let me let me just set the table for this real quick. The way you put it to me, like, I'll go get them their coffee. Yep. I don't care. Yep.

我是去向他们学习的。没错。如果需要我去给他们买咖啡，我就去买。是的。你明白吗？

I'm there to learn from them. Yep. If I need to go get their coffee, I'll go get their coffee. Yep. Do you understand?

这太疯狂了。我觉得这种心态是对的。嗯。但我不认为有人会相信一个经营着千亿美元公司、做过你所做之事的人会这样。对吧。

That's insane. Like, I think that's the right, like, mindset. Yeah. But I don't think anybody would believe somebody running, you know, a $100,000,000,000 company and has done the things that you've done. Like, yeah.

不，我没事。我会跟着这个人，做任何需要我做的事。

No. I'm fine. Like, I'll shadow this guy, and, like, I'll do whatever I need to do.

是的。我是说，你看。我刚刚意识到这其实源于一件事，对吧，你和我都读过所有的书。实际上，许多创业者读的关于伟大企业家的书没你多，但他们读过那些重要的。嗯。

Yeah. Well, I mean, look. I I just realized it it sort of started from this thing, right, where you and I have both read all the books. And actually, many of the entrepreneurs have read not as many books about as as you have around all the greatest entrepreneurs, but they've read the big ones. Yeah.

当然是他们那个时代的。基础是史蒂夫·乔布斯、埃隆·马斯克的传记之类的。但关键在于阅读并内化，亲眼见证文化。我意识到在创建Spotify时——显然这是我创立的最大公司——我是在工作中学习。

Certainly of their time. The basis is the the the Steve Jobs, the the Elon Musk's biographies, and all that kind of stuff. But there's a certain thing around reading it and internalizing it, and seeing the culture upfront. And what I realized was building Spotify, obviously it's the biggest company I've ever built. So I'm learning on the job.

我不知道自己不知道什么，因为我从未真正在公司工作过。某种程度上，当我们从其他公司招聘人时，我意识到他们一直在做的那些事，告诉我们时我并不真正理解其运作方式。举个例子，我在一对一的情况下表现很好，甚至在三四人或六人小组中也不错。但十人小组？我没有那种能掌控全场的人格魅力。

And I don't know what I don't know, because I've never really worked at a company. And in a way, what I realized as we hired people from these other companies is that there were all these things that they were doing that they kept telling us about, and I didn't really understand how it worked. So I'll mention, like, one, for instance, I do really well in these one on one situations. I might even do well in three or four person groups and maybe six. But 10 person group, like, I don't have the personality where I command the room.

根本行不通。而像马克·扎克伯格这样的人，他有个叫'大组会'的东西，每周召集20到25人。对我来说，这听起来太可怕了——这种会议怎么能完成任何事？所以我就问他，嘿，我能来向你学习吗？

It just doesn't work. And then you have someone like a Mark Zuckerberg who literally has this thing called large group where he has 20 to 25 people that he runs every week. And for me, it sounded absolutely awful. Like, how did he get anything done in that meeting? And so lo and behold, I asked him, Hey, can I come and learn from you?

他表现得极为谦逊。我们显然已是多年好友。他爽快地答应了。于是我花了差不多一周的时间，从头到尾几乎参与了他所有的会议。对我来说，最大的疑问自然是：好吧。

And he was incredibly gracious. And we've obviously been friends for a long time. And he said, Sure. And so I spent the better part of what I believe the first time was like a week, literally in pretty much all of his meetings from start to finish. And the the big question, obviously, for me is like, okay.

那么，他能从中得到什么？我能在这个过程中发挥什么作用？因此，我主动承担了会议记录的工作。如果可以，我甚至会帮他倒咖啡。真的就是这类琐事。

Well, what does he get out of it? And can I make myself useful while doing it? So, hence, I took meeting notes. You know, if I could get him coffee, I would. You know, it it was literally these types of things.

但最终最让我惊讶的是试图提炼出公司文化中出乎我意料的部分。Meta（当时的Facebook）作为世界级企业，并非我认为自己能做出多少不同或更好的事情。真正让我意外的是他管理公司的方式。作为另一位创始人——希望也是他尊重的人——目睹并聆听这些，或许能带来洞见与突破。

But at the end of it, the most interesting thing was obviously trying to distill down what surprised me about the culture. It wasn't really around, like, Meta, and what was then Facebook, is a world class company. It wasn't like, you know, I miraculously thought I could do a lot of things different or better. But there were things that surprised me around how he managed the company. And seeing that and hearing that from another founder, hopefully one that he respects too, may sort of lead to insights and breakthroughs.

那一周里，我不只是跟随观察，还与他们整个高管团队会面并进行访谈。通过坐下来向他们学习，真正内化企业文化并理解其运作。突然间你会意识到，比如如何让大型团队会议高效进行。还有许多其他做法，我毫不避讳地借鉴了那次经历。对我而言，这种直面文化以理解特定实践为何有效的方式，成了绝佳的学习途径。

And during that week, it's not just that I follow people around, I actually meet with their entire executive team and interview them too. So sit down and try to learn from them to really truly internalize the culture and try to understand it. And so all of the sudden, you do realize, for instance, how you can make a large group team meeting work. And there were lots of other things which I shamelessly copied from, for instance, that experience. And it just turned out for me to be an amazing way to learn by seeing the culture upfront that enables the certain practices to work.

这其实回到了我们讨论过的两点：一面是镜像反射般的复盘，另一面则是必须忠于自我。你可以模仿某些具体做法，比如埃隆的方式。但如果这与你的本性不符，我敢保证效果绝不会像埃隆做时那样。

It almost comes back to kind of this two things we talked about already, which is this mirror of reflecting it back. And then the the the sort of second notion, I think, which is it's gotta be true to you. So, you know, there are many things where you can copy a specific way. For instance, Elon does things. But if it's not truly innate to you and your personality, I promise you, it will not have the same impact as when Elon does things.

说得太对了。关于你的管理原型，我认为你精准地抓住了教练型特质。Spotify内部员工会形容你的管理风格非常协作化——没人会这样描述史蒂夫·乔布斯。当然他也能协作，但最终决策权始终牢牢掌握在他手中。

Dead right about this. The thing the way I would think about, like, your archetype is I think you nailed it with, like, coach, and then you'll hear people inside Spotify say it's, like, very you have a very collaborative, like, management style, where I don't think anybody is going to describe Steve Jobs as collaborative. Now he was able to collaborate. Yeah. But at the end, like, he was it was kind of like, I'm making all the decisions.

这其实是个有趣的故事。我很好奇你如何看待这个问题：在产品决策上，你如何平衡个人品味直觉与数据驱动？嗯...有个特别有意思的例子...

So this is actually an interesting story. I'm curious how you think about this. Like, how do you balance, like, the decisions you make, specifically on, like, product, right, with, like, your own personal taste and intuition versus, like, being metrics driven. Mhmm. There's this hilarious story.

它出现在两本不同的书里。一本是《创意选择》，这本书很棒，我已经读了三遍。讲的是一个叫肯·科科桑达的程序员，他曾多次向史蒂夫演示，在他们打造最优秀产品的时候。

It's in two different books. One's in this book called Creative Selection, which is excellent. It's I've read three times. It's about this guy from this guy named Ken Kacosanda, who was a programmer. He demoed to Steve many, many times and, like, when they were building their best products.

对吧？然后乔尼·艾夫的传记里有另一个故事。他们比较了谷歌和苹果在史蒂夫·乔布斯时代的做事方式——比如谷歌会说‘我们要在蓝色和浅蓝之间做选择’，然后运行200次测试来比较中间所有色阶。

Right? And then there's another one story in Johnny Ives' biography. And they they talked they were comparing and contrasting the way, like, Google would make products versus how Apple did when Steve Jobs And, was in you know, the guy's like, hey, you know, Google, we have to decide between, like, blue and light blue. Mhmm. And we run, like, 200 tests of, like, all the different shades in between that.

没错。而乔尼说‘我们绝对不这么干’。你记得吗——你年纪应该够记得——他们当初造出那个胖胖的泡泡造型iMac。

Yep. And Johnny's like, we would never ever do that. Yep. Do you remember you you were old enough to remember this. They create the the the iMac, but, like, the big fat bubble one.

对。你

Yep. You

知道吧，大概是九十年代末？

know, probably late nineties?

是啊。没错。

Yeah. Yeah.

那是第一次出现各种疯狂配色。乔尼讲的故事是‘知道我们怎么选颜色吗？我和史蒂夫在苹果设计中心讨论了三十分钟，最后呈现的颜色就是我们当场拍板的。’

And it was the first time there was gonna be all these, like, crazy colors and everything else. It's like and Johnny tells the story. He's like, you know how we chose the colors? He's like, me and Steve went to the design, like, we're at the Apple Design Center, and we talked about it. And thirty minutes later, the colors you saw, we shift.

就是这样。你属于那个光谱范围吗？

That was it. Are you on that spectrum?

是的。我认为你描述中最重要的一点是它是一个光谱。嗯。并不是非此即彼的100%。因为，我记得早期人们讨论谷歌和苹果做事方式的那种二分法。

Yeah. I I think the most important thing that you described is it's a spectrum. Mhmm. It's not a 100%, you know, one way or the other way. Because, again, sort of, like, I remember early on, you know, people talking about that sort of dichotomy of how Google does things and how Apple does things.

当苹果处于史蒂夫·乔布斯的巅峰时期，许多创始人倾向于认同——不，我来主导产品评审，只有我的意见和品味才重要，我有这些清晰的表述。结果可想而知，由此产生了一些糟糕的决策等等。我认为人们在几乎所有问题上犯的错误就是他们过于字面化理解了。

And many founders then tended to gravitate when Apple was at sort of peak Steve Jobs to, no, I run the product review. It's only my opinion that matters and it's my taste. And I've got this articulation, all these things. And lo and behold, some terrible decisions ended up coming out of this, etcetera. And I think where people sort of break down on almost all issues is they take it literally.

我绝不相信苹果完全处于史蒂夫·乔布斯对一切都有唯一正确答案、不听他人意见、不进行尝试的阵营。他当然会通过内外多人的意见测试自己的想法，只是方式不同而已。

I don't believe for a second that Apple was a 100% in the camp where Steve Jobs just had universally the answer to everything. He didn't listen to anyone else's opinions. He didn't try things out. Sometimes maybe trying it out by testing his ideas on multiple people inside and outside, you know, etcetera. But of course he did that, right?

我知道他采用的一种聪明却鲜少被提及的方式：他有时会打电话给记者测试想法。比如'我们可能做这类事情'，然后观察记者的反应，如果反馈不佳就撤回。

And I know one of the ways he did it, which was brilliant and that don't get talked about. He actually called up journalists sometimes and tested ideas on them. Yeah. And and, like, we might do this kind of thing. And then here, the journalist react to it, and it's like, okay.

那是个糟糕的主意，然后就会撤回。

That was a bad idea, and then go back.

他们把这描述为声纳系统，就像海豚抛出想法——可能是个疯狂的点子，反馈回来后作为学习方式。但最搞笑的是他们最初无法决定后来成为iMac的命名。乔布斯痴迷于索尼的Kia Marine系列，他说'我给这台电脑想好名字了：MacMan'。

They describe this as, like, sonar, how dolphins, like they, like, throw things out, and then they it might be a crazy idea, and then it reflects back to them, and they use it as, like, a form of education. But the hilarious one is they couldn't figure out what they're gonna call what turns into the iMac. He was obsessed with the Kia Marine and Sony. He goes, I have the name for this computer. It's gonna be the MacMan.

这是关于Walkman的。周围的人都表示反对，请不要这么做。这不可能是真的。而你却觉得这糟透了。

It's of the Walkman. And people around him were like, no. Please don't do that. It can't be that. And you're like, this is terrible.

他们一次次开会讨论。他说，史蒂夫，这个主题烂透了。

And they kept meeting after meeting. He's like, Steve, this theme sucks.

是啊。

Yeah.

他们给他列了一堆名字，第一次听到iMac时，他完全不喜欢。但其他人坚持说我们真的很喜欢，所以决定先放在下一组候选名单里，或许排在第三位。

And they they they give him a bunch of lists, and then the first time he hears iMac, he's like, don't like it at all. Yeah. And then they're like, we really like it. So, like, we'll put in the next group. And then, like, we'll maybe put, like, the third one down.

后来他说，现在我不那么讨厌它了。直到某天他在走廊里突然说，我想出了名字，叫SkyMac。

Yeah. And then he goes, now I don't hate it. Yeah. And then one day he's walking in hall, he's like, I came up with the name, but SkyMac.

没错。当然。就是这样。就该这么办。

Yeah. And of course. Yep. That that's the way. That's the way.

对吧？所以我感觉事实确实如此。我认为关键在于人们往往会过度偏向某一方。Spotify早期也是如此，我们当时就非常明显。

Right? And and so I feel like that's truly the case. I I I think the the the realization is you you tend to overgravitate to to one or the other. And certainly in Spotify's case, we did the same. We were early on, very much so.

我是说，最初的用户界面基本上是由我和一个叫Rasmus的家伙设计的。所以很大程度上可以说那体现了我的品味。但迟早会发生的是，你会进入一个连自己都不再清楚的领域。因为你现有的关于世界现状和你所服务客户的反馈循环开始变得有些不同。这时你就需要建立一个能纳入反馈机制的阶段。

I mean, the first user interface was pretty much designed by myself and this guy called Rasmus. So much of that you could describe was my taste. But sooner or later, what ends up happening is you get into a space where you don't even know anymore. Because your current feedback loop of where the world is and the customer you're designing for starts becoming a little bit different. And then you need to get to a point where you start incorporating some feedback mechanism.

所以对我来说，这就像是判断力加好奇心。你越是能扩展好奇心的分支，就越能提升判断力，从而塑造你的品味。因此对我来说，关键是要尽可能接纳更多反馈，这样才能让自己或小团队达到某种品味水准。

So like, for me, is sort of judgment plus curiosity. And the more you can sort of extend the curiosity branch, that improves your judgment, which then builds your taste. So it's really a question for me about just sort of allowing for as much feedback as humanly possible, so that you can get yourself or a small team to some level of taste.

商界最优秀的领导者能够发现规律，但如果你看不到数据就无法发现规律。大多数企业只使用了20%的数据，因为80%的客户情报都隐藏在电子邮件、文字记录和对话中。除非你使用HubSpot。HubSpot能让所有数据汇聚一处，使你看到真正重要的规律。因为知道得越多，成长就越快。

The best leaders in business are able to spot patterns, but you can't spot patterns if you can't see your data. And most businesses are only using 20% of their data because 80% of your customer intelligence is invisible, hidden in emails, transcripts, and conversations. Unless you have HubSpot. HubSpot is where all of your data comes together so you can see the patterns that matter. Because when you know more, you grow more.

而这个规律永远有效。立即访问hubspot.com。就是hubspot.com。有没有哪些产品更新上线后是你不喜欢的？

And that is a pattern that never fails. Visit hubspot.com today. That is hubspot.com. Are there any product updates that get pushed live that you didn't like?

哦，太多了。太多了。这可能有点特殊，但回到正题——最终我意识到，创始人必须成为产品负责人是铁律。顺便说，这百分之百正确，我完全认同。

Oh, plenty. Plenty. And this may be a little bit unique, but coming back to it, so I ended up having So the typical thing is that the founder needs to be the product person. By the way, it's 100% true. I totally believe that.

我认为这在从零到一的阶段最为重要。但很多人没谈到的是，这个旅程并非只有一个阶段。你会在从零到一、一到一百之间摇摆，最后阶段更像是优化阶段。你必须持续这个过程，不同阶段需要不同技能。正因如此，我认为创业者必须明白在这段旅程中何时该运用何种工具。

I think it's the most important thing in the zero to one stage. But what a lot of people don't talk about is the fact that there isn't one stage of this journey. It's like you're oscillating between zero to one, one to 100, and then the last stage was more like optimization stage. And you have to constantly do that, and you're gonna need different skills at different places. And this is why, by the way, I believe it's so important for entrepreneurs to realize when to apply what tools in this journey.

Spotify的发展轨迹就违背了所有常规认知——事实上我不再直接管理产品了。因为我遇到了现在你们认识的Gustav，由他负责产品。他在这方面确实比我强得多。说真话的话，多年前的情况是：虽然他在主持产品会议，但我总想亲自掌控。

So what happened with Spotify is sort of against all the common wisdom and wealth, which is I don't really run product anymore. Because what happened was I got this guy called Gustav that you've now met, and he runs product. And he's actually way better than me at doing it. And so speaking about sort of being truthful, what ended up happening many years ago was I was running these product meetings. He was sort of running it, but I I wanted to run it.

于是我某种程度上越过了他。但我没有足够时间真正投入其中。所以他算是替我管理，但我仍坚持参与产品评审。并再次强调获得坦诚反馈的重要性，他在某次产品会议后把我拉到一边说，你知道，你其实并不擅长这些事，也没提供多大帮助。大多数时候，我和团队基本上只是在会议上迎合你，你实际带来的价值没有你想象的那么多。

So I kind of interjected myself over him. But I didn't have the time to, like, really spend all this time. So he was sort of like running it for me, but I still insisted on having product reviews. And and sort of talking again about the importance of having people who give you candid feedback, he took me aside after one of these product sessions, and he's like, you know, you're not really that good in doing these things, and you're not really that helpful. So most of the time, me and the team were kind of like looking and we're trying to basically, you know, appease you in the meeting, but you're not really adding as much value as you think.

毫不意外，我的第一反应是勃然大怒。我回到家就想，天啊，我得开除这家伙。太糟糕了，他怎么能这么说？

And and not surprisingly, my my first instinct was to be really pissed off. I sort of went home. I was like, man, I'm gonna have to fire this guy. It's like horrible. Like, how could he say that this?

但我也意识到这是情绪化反应。我并未完全相信这是事实，于是回去对他说：好吧，我给你三个月时间，我不参与产品评审，之后我们再评估效果。结果出乎意料，他确实做得非常出色。

But I also realized that that wasn't an emotional response. So again, I wasn't fully convinced that this was true, but I sort of went back and said, okay, well, you know what? I'm gonna give you three months where I don't do the product reviews. And then we evaluate how this worked. And lo and behold, he actually did a great job.

团队因此更满意了。他在没有我干预的情况下做出更多决策，不再有两个人同时决定产品方向，完全由他主导。从那一刻起，我就不再负责营养品类的产品管理了。

And so the team was much happier. He was making more of the decisions without me. I wasn't meddling in. There wasn't two different people deciding what worked, but it was really him. Ever since that moment, I don't really run product anymore in nutrition.

我仍参与产品工作，他也经常征求我的意见。但我不再主持产品会议。我提起这事是因为那对我而言是个重大挫折——不仅在当时，更让我开始思考：那么我在公司的真正价值究竟是什么？

I'm involved in the product, and he solicits feedback from me all the time. But I don't run the product meetings. And I say that because what happened for me was a real setback. Not just in sort of that moment, but it also sort of like, oh, wait a minute. So what I really What's my value at then in this company?

经过一段时间才明白，虽然产品管理不是我的价值所在，但或许我可以在其他领域发挥作用。于是我将重心转移到公司另一个层面，更贴近创作者需求，花更多时间与内容团队相处。最终我的产品反馈形成了Spotify特有的双轨模式：既要服务消费者，也要服务创作者。我决心比公司任何人都更深入理解创作者生态。

And it took me a while and I realized that all of a sudden, actually, you know what, that won't be it, but maybe I can add value in this place. And I sort of oscillated to this different place in the company, which was much closer to understanding the creator and spending more time with the content people, etcetera. And so my product feedback ended up being and this is the dynamic that's quite unique to Spotify in that we have these two stakeholders. We have consumers on the one end and we have creators. And so I just made it my effort to understand and know the creator way better than anyone else in the company.

因此我的产品建议都基于创作者视角。这成为了独特的价值贡献——因为这是面向外部的工作，需要实际接触创作者，不仅要理解他们如何使用产品，更要洞悉他们的商业逻辑。

And so my product feedback to them comes from that lens. And that became value add because again, that's a very different thing. That's an outward facing thing. You actually have to sit down and meet with creators. It is so much more about innately understanding their needs and talking to them and understanding not just how they use their product, but their business.

他们面临的不仅仅是产品利用层面的问题，而是整体性的困境。这只是其中一方面。后来情况演变成，我遇到了一个叫亚历克斯的人，他现在在这方面做得比我更好。于是我想，好吧，现在我需要找到另一种方式来提供价值。而如今，我的价值体现在两者之间的衔接处——即商业或创作者与消费者的交汇点，有时还需要考虑可能存在的第三方利益相关者。

What problems are they facing that's not just sort of how they leverage the product, but actually holistically around them? And so that was just one of those things. And then subsequently, what ended up happening is I got this guy called Alex, and he's now doing that part better than me too. And so I was like, okay, well, now I need to find a different way to add value. And now it turns out that my value add is the sort of in between between the two, where you know, business or creators meets consumers and where, you know, there's maybe a third stakeholder we have to consider in all of this.

因此，我在整个过程中的核心体验，始终围绕着认清自我定位与发掘先天优势。这段学习之旅已经持续了二十年。

And so my whole sort of experience in all of this has really been around kind of figuring out who I am and what I'm innately good at. And this has been a learning journey for twenty years.

你刚才描述的这些经历，前后跨度有多少年？

What you're just describing right now, this unfolded over how many years?

我认为前十年是从零到一的创业阶段。最近十年则是另一个阶段——虽然公司整体已跨越初创期，但在某些新业务领域我们仍处于从零起步的状态，这些部分我仍然百分百投入其中。

I would say the first ten years was the zero to one journey. And the last ten has been that journey, where we're not zero to one anymore as a company holistically. But there are elements of the company where we're zero to one where I'm absolutely a 100% involved.

我觉得这是个很好的契机，可以聊聊你另一个独特观点——我最近刚做了一期关于杰夫·贝索斯的节目，因为他极少接受采访。于是我把他历年访谈记录当作书本来研读。他说过，从创业第一天起就立志要打造一家能超越自己生命的企业。

I think this is good, like, opportunity to talk about another one of your very unique ideas that I also there I was this excellent I just did this episode on Jeff Bezos because he doesn't give them any interviews. And so I would take a transcript of his interviews, and you treat it like a book and just go through it. And he said something like, from day one, he knew, like, he wanted to build a company that could outlast him.

没错。

Yeah.

对吧？他至今热爱这份事业，并将永远热爱。这很像我们为人父母的目标——塑造子女的同时，只有当他们能独立生存时，才算真正的成功。

Right? He still loves it. He'll love it forever. And it was very reminiscent of, like, what we're trying to do as parents, where it's like, you're shaping your kid, but you're only successful if they can survive without you. Yeah.

当我听到他这么说时，那是在你完美阐述这个想法的几个月后。就像，嗯，我觉得你会比我表达得更好。但本质上，就像你的孩子刚出生时，他们基本上就像是你的产物。他们会模仿父母，模仿所处的环境。但随着他们逐渐长大——我刚刚经历了这个过程，我有一个13岁的女儿——在她还小的时候，她很像我和她妈妈。

And when I heard him say that, was a few months after you had beautifully, like, articulated this idea. It's just like, well, I think there's a lot of you you're gonna say it better than I did. But essentially, like, there is a very rather clear analogy between the way your child, when they're first born, is essentially like a a product of you. They're going to mimic their parents, their environment that they're in. But as they grow older and older, and I just went through this, and I have a 13 year old, you know, when she was much smaller, she's much like me and her mom.

是的，对吧？而现在她变得，她有了

Yep. Right? And then now she's like, she's got

我甚至没有的特质。

traits I don't even have.

没错，百分之百。她有自己的决定，做着我可能会做或不会做的事。这就像公司的情况一样。你当时提出了这个观点，我记得那时Spotify大概是19岁，或者19、20岁左右。

Yep. 100%. Her own decisions and, like, doing things maybe I would do or I would not do. And you're like, it's kind of the same for the company. And you had this idea where, like, I think at the time Spotify was 19 years old or it's 19 or 20 years old.

对。就像，你知道，第一年或第二年时，它就是我。就像你有个两岁的孩子一样，谁都明白这一点。是的。

Yep. And it's just like, well, you know, year one or two, it is me. It's like the same way you have a two year old. Anybody knows this. Yep.

但现在公司内部涌现出了一些与创始人无关的特征。是的，是的。这真是个迷人的洞见。

But now it there's characteristics that emerge from within the company that are separate from the founder. Yep. Yep. That's like a fascinating insight.

没错。我是说，看。为人父母显然有三个截然不同的阶段，对吧？第一阶段是你实际上就是那个让他们活下去的人。

Yeah. I mean, look. There's clearly kind of like three distinct stages of parenthood. Right? And the first one is you're literally the person that keeps them alive.

对吧？你百分百投入其中。几乎每个决策都由你替他们做出，因为他们自己无法决定。然后逐渐地，下一阶段是你依然参与其中，当他们会做出可能带来糟糕长期后果的行为时，你可能会介入。而到了最后阶段，你甚至连这都做不到了。

Right? And you're a 100% there. And every you pretty much make every decision for them because they can't make it themselves. And then gradually, the next stage is you're there, you're quite involved, you probably step in when they're doing something which would be terrible and would create bad long term consequences. And then like the last stage, you can't even do that.

所以这份工作更微妙之处在于，只需在他们需要时出现。我这里有些简化了概念。但就像所有事情一样，不要照字面理解，不过这个理念的核心确实在于——公司规模越大、历史越久，就越会变成这样。如今我的大部分工作正是如此。我尝试在不同领域当人们需要时出现，这种情况确实有，但不会频繁到每天每时每刻。

So the job is much more subtly to just be there when they need you. And I'm somewhat simplifying it. But I think that as as with everything, don't take it literally, but but sort of the the core of the gist of the idea is certainly a a larger company becomes more and more, and an older company becomes more and more of that. And so much of what I do today is literally that. I try to be there for people when they need me in various fields, which happens, but it's not as often as every day, all the time.

而我现在深切关注并投入大量时间的，是关于新想法最初萌芽阶段的保护。我认为这可能是最未被充分讨论的议题——你该如何做到这点？就像如何持续捕捉到灵光乍现的时刻？这甚至带有理论色彩，任何战略书籍谈到具体方法时，包括前几天我与《七种力量》作者汉密尔顿·哈姆勒交流时——顺便说这真是本了不起的战略著作——但我在过度套用书中概念并传授他人后领悟到：你只有在力量真正显现时才能确认它的存在。

And what I deeply care about today, and I do spend a lot of my time on, is this notion around this first seed of a new idea and protecting that idea. And I think it's it's probably the most underreported, talked about way is how do you do that? Like, how do you consistently find lighting in a bottle? Like, you know and it's also theoretical at the point of any strategy book talking about how you do it or even when you go behind I was the other day I was with the guy, Hamilton Hamler, who wrote Seven Powers book, which is an amazing book on strategy, by the way. But one of the most interesting ideas that I learned after sort of, again, overfitting the concepts in the book and sort of teaching people about it is you can only tell that you have power when when it's there.

它不会告诉你如何抵达那种境界。

It doesn't tell you how to get there.

这就是对创始人、播客和书籍的典型批评。比如'但他没告诉我具体该怎么做'。没错，这不是个手把手教学的播客。

This is the the the criticism of, like, founders and the podcast and the books. Like, but he's not telling me what to do. Was like Yeah. This is not a podcast for people that wanna be told Yeah. What to do.

是的。这里呈现的是某位企业家思考公司的方式，他们的亲身经历。你需要自己提炼观点。我特别喜欢你反复强调'不要照字面理解'这点。

Yeah. It's here's how this guy or this woman thought about their company. This is what they experienced. You pull out these ideas. I love how you say don't you kept saying don't take it literally.

我之前告诉过你，我总爱把一切抽象化，这快把别人逼疯了。所以当我听你讲时——记得我给你发过消息说，你让我想起詹姆斯·J·希尔，可能是唯一这么比喻你的人。要知道詹姆斯·J·希尔可是史上最成功的铁路大亨。

I've told you this before, like, I drive people crazy because I turn I tend to turn everything in an abstraction. So, like, when I hear you, I've sent this message to you, where you're like, you kind of remind me of James J. Hill, which is might be the only person that's ever texted you this. And James J. Hill was the most successful railroad baron of all time.

我只是觉得你描述他创业的方式——他本质上是在铺设铁轨，对吧？公司的目标显然是让货物和人员能在轨道上运输。但关键在于：如何让我所做之事更具价值？

And I just thought the way you just said the way he built he essentially was laying railroad tracks. Right? And he was hit the goal of the company was, obviously, we're gonna have goods and people on the tracks. Right. But this alone is how do I make what I'm doing more valuable?

他是美国历史上唯一没有破产的铁路创始人。其他人都破产了，这很疯狂。他意识到必须投入同等甚至更多精力来发展和培育铁路沿线新兴的社区。没错。

And he's the only railroad founder ever in American history to not go bankrupt. They all went bankrupt. It's crazy. What he realizes is, like, he has to spend just as much, if not more time, developing and nurturing the communities that are springing up around it. Yep.

如果他能建设好这些周边社区，铁路的价值就会提升。是的。但我特别欣赏这种批评观点：'你得换个节目或方向'，因为创业者最讨厌被指挥。我从没见过哪个创业者会说'快给我份任务清单'。

And if he builds these communities around it, and that makes makes his railroad more valuable. Yep. But I I I love this criticism because it's like, oh, you just you gotta find a different show or you gotta find a different thing because, like, entrepreneurs don't wanna be told what to do. I've never met an entrepreneur. It's like, give me a list.

没错。这是专为不愿听令行事之人准备的职业。完全正确。说到这个我想起件趣事——我觉得这和你身上另一个特质有关：你拥有极高的（多数人没有的）...我认为对生活掌控力越强，就越容易成功。

Yeah. It's a it's a profession for people that don't take don't take direction Exactly. Very Exactly. It's hilarious about this. I I wanna I think this is tied to something also that is very fascinating with you, is you have a high and most people, again, like, the I think the more control you have over your life, the more success you have.

人们常犯的错误是剔除所有逆耳忠言和麻烦事，结果变得极其脆弱。而你却对奇葩人物有着惊人的包容力。嗯哼。对吧？

People make the mistake of, like, eliminating any any people telling you truth, any inconvenience. They become, like, really brittle. You have an insane high tolerance for crazy people. Mhmm. Okay?

有个与你共事的人告诉我，你评判别人的标准是——

Somebody told me, somebody works closely with you, that you judge people on their

他们最好的创意，而非最糟的表现。嗯哼。

best idea, not their worst. Mhmm.

我刚重读完文艺复兴科技公司创始人吉姆·西蒙斯的故事。说实话，我觉得这家伙简直就是创造了一台印钞魔法机。他们说过类似的话——他说这无关紧要，就像在一堆马粪里如果藏着一个好点子，那就去把它找出来。

And I just finished rereading Jim Simons, founder of Renaissance Technologies. Really, creator of a magic money machine is really what I think about the guy. And they said something very similar. They're like, it doesn't matter. He's like, if there's a single good idea in your pile of horse manure, like, go find it.

他会亲自筛选，眼里只盯着最顶尖的点子。没错，他宁愿翻遍99个糟糕的主意

Like, he will go through. He all he cares about is the very best ideas. Yeah. He will willing to go through 99 shitty ideas

确实。

Yeah.

只为找到最好的那个，因为他深知顶级点子的威力。你能说说这种耐受力是怎么培养的吗？毕竟大多数人——特别是随着公司发展——初期往往充满变数，但随着成功到来，企业常会犯这种错：觉得必须面面俱到

To get the very best because he understands how powerful those Can you explain, like, how you develop this tolerance? Because most people, like, especially as companies age too Yeah. You know, you're built, usually you have a lot of variance in the beginning. Yeah. And then they get more successful, they kinda they make the corporations make the mistake of like, no, we need, like, to we need all the edges.

既要高点也要低点。

We need the high and the low Yep.

没错。

Out of there. Yep.

而你接纳了这点。记得你之前和我聊时用了个绝妙比喻——你说这类人就像'高温体质'

You embrace that. You you the way you put it to me when we were talking about this is, like, high temperature people

是的。

Yep.

比如，在训练人工智能方面。

In for, like in in, like, training AI.

对，对，对，对。实际上我认为大语言模型和人工智能的最新进展为讨论这种高温度概念提供了一个绝佳的框架。

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I actually think LLMs and the latest advancement in AI kind of have created an excellent framing on this and to talk about this sort of high temperature notion.

在大语言模型中，你可以调节温度参数。调高温度后，模型就会开始产生幻觉。当然，幻觉的坏处是你无法分辨真假，但其中也会迸发出一些职业性的灵光乍现，真正新颖的想法由此诞生。

So in LLMs, can basically tune up the temperature. And if you tune up the temperature, you know, it it basically start hallucinating. So, you know, the bad thing with the hallucination, of course, is you have no idea what's true or not. But there is a spurs of vocational brilliance that comes out of there. And the truly new ideas that come out of there.

所以当前这代大语言模型受到的批评是它们不够有创造力。这归根结底是因为我们调低了它们的温度参数，并通过安全训练将它们限制在护栏之内。其实要让这些模型高度创新是有方法的，虽然会变得疯狂，那就是调高温度。我相信——顺便说一句，这正是我打算在未来十年重点研究的领域之一。最近我正处于深度反思期，因为今年是我职业生涯的第十九年。

So the criticism of the current generation LLMs is they're not very creative. And that's ultimately because we've kind of turned down the temperature on them and we've safety trained them to the point where we keep them within the guardrails. So there is a way when you train these things to be highly creative, but batch it crazy, and that's just turning up the temperature. And I believe that, you know, one of the the and and this is, by the way, something that I intend to focus a lot more on in the next decade. You know, I'm I'm very reflective at the moment because I am in my nineteenth year.

你提到大公司很有意思，因为在我自己经营大公司之前，我总觉得它们一无是处。现在我的观点有所修正，我认为它们非常擅长把已经在做的事情做得更好。回到那个观点，大公司就是不断优化现有业务，而优化方式自然是尽量减少错误，也就意味着减少浪费、减少各种损耗。

And and I think it's interesting you sort of talked about big companies, because I used to think before I sort of ran a big company myself, I just think used to think they're bad, period. And what I've sort of revised my view, and and and now I think they're really good at doing what they're already doing and doing it better. So back to that point, like, large scale corporation, what they do is they just get better and better and better at doing what they already do. And the way to do that is obviously minimize mistakes. So that also means minimize billions, minimize waste, minimize all these other things.

最终结果就是越来越强的资本主义倾向，公开市场等因素都驱使你做一件事：把现有业务优化到最高效状态。但这并不利于产生最佳创意。让我深感欣慰的是——很幸运我现在不再像以前那样日常运营Spotify，虽然仍深度参与，但不再参加所有团队会议和处理所有事务。过去我90%的精力都聚焦在让公司机器运转上。

So naturally what you end up having is more and more capitalism, public markets, all these things drives you towards one thing: optimize what you're doing to the point where it's the most efficient thing that it can possibly be. But that is not conducive to how you get the best ideas. And what I'm greatly satisfied and happy with, and I've been fortunate enough as I don't anymore run Spotify as much day to day as I used to. I'm still very involved, but I'm not involved in all the team meetings and doing all the things that I used to do. So I was like 90% internally focused on just getting the machine to run.

关键在于，我不仅拥有更多自由时间去思考，还能结识更多人。其中的美妙之处在于，这让我重新回到了音乐的世界，再次体验音乐创作的过程。在录音室里，一群人互相碰撞创意的场景是非凡的。实际上，音乐人在创业过程方面的理解，远比大多数人想象的要深刻得多。

Is that I've been more and more able to not just have the free time to think, but I've been more able to meet more people. And part of the beauty of that is that it brought me back to music again. And it brought me back to the creative process of music again. And it is something remarkable in a studio where you have a bunch of people just throwing ideas at each other. And musicians actually, in many ways, know more about the entrepreneurial process than most people give them credit.

我觉得电影人和运动员也是如此

I think it's the same thing. Filmmakers, like athletes

百分之百相同。完全一样。没错。所以重点在于，我深信最优秀的音乐人和最具创造力的人，他们从不害怕抛出想法，哪怕是糟糕的。

100%. Do the same thing. Yeah. 100%. So so this point then is that what I truly believe the very best musicians do and the most creative people do is they are not afraid of throwing out ideas, even terrible ones.

即便在最糟糕的想法里，也可能藏着金子。我们早餐时聊过这个，记得有人给你提过不太好的建议。但有时建议背后的洞察力，或者说问题背后的问题，反而能引出真正有趣的东西。我逐渐意识到，多数人追求的是循规蹈矩。他们看重的是每分钟能稳定输出X量级的影响力，或是X%的可信度。

And it's in even the most terrible one, there may be a nugget. You and I, we talked about this over breakfast where, you know, there was a person who sort of gave some bad advice to you. But sometimes even the insight behind the advice, the sort of the question behind the question, can lead to some really interesting things. And so what I've come to do realize is most people want conformity. And they value sort of a reliable consistency of giving X amount of impact per seconds or minute or X truthfulness you know, over x percent.

人们总有些商业层面的价值评估标准，或任何你评判的维度。但商业领域尤其如此——要的是整齐划一。你想把人分类：这人靠谱，永远靠谱。但如今我更感兴趣的，是那些闻所未闻的新奇想法。

They have some sort of heuristics for what is valuable person from a business context or what whatever sort of context you're judging it on. But certainly in a business concept, it's conformity. You wanna sort of put people in about it. This person is good, and they're always good. But, you know, what I'm more interested in these days is I'm interested in this idea I'd never heard about before.

我发现与世界上最优秀的人长谈时，即便五十五分钟的内容对我毫无价值，但可能突然迸发的两三分钟灵光，会深刻改变我的人生。这才是我要找的人。可惜多数人不愿与这类人为伍。

And I find it with some people that even in an hours long conversation with the best people in the world where I've learned the most, it may be fifty five minutes of that conversation that honestly was completely worthless, not that interesting for me. But then there's a spur of the moment, two, three minutes of brilliance, which I never heard before, which will deeply and profoundly impact my life. Those are my people. That's what I'm interested in. And I've come to learn that most people don't like to be around those people.

但我热爱这种体验。它充满回报且引人入胜。我期待未来十年能与更多这样的人相处。这正是我想深入探索并学习的领域。

But I love it. And I think it's such a rewarding and interesting thing. And I'm looking forward to spending more time with those people in the coming decade. And it's it's sort of one of those things that I've I've sort of wanna do more of and learn more from.

我认为这有关联。前几天你的一位老友给我发信息，内容是我与郑周永——现代集团创始人——共同录制的那期节目截图。这大概是我读过最具启发性的自传，因为作者在九十岁高龄写下这本书，他出身贫农家庭，童年甚至要靠啃树皮维生。

I think this is related. One of your oldest friends texted me the other day, and it was a screenshot of this episode I did with Chung Ju Young, who's the founder of Hyundai. And it's probably the most I think it is the most inspiring autobiography I read because the guy writes the book when he's, like, 90, and he grows up the son of a poor farmer. You know, they almost they had to eat tree bark to survive. He dies.

这位韩国首富创建了庞大的企业帝国。我原以为会读到关于汽车制造的传记，没想到那只是冰山一角。他还主导了建筑业，打造了当时全球最大的船舶。

The richest person in South Korea builds this huge conglomerate. I thought I was gonna read a book about a guy making cars. I didn't realize that was, like, nothing. You know? Like, he was building did all the construction, built some of the biggest ships in the world.

他的绰号就叫'推土机'。朋友特意截取播客这段发给我，说这简直和丹尼尔如出一辙。郑周永常谈到：随着职业发展，企业规模扩大，体制就会越僵化。从最初乐观冒险，到对所有新想法都说'不不不'。

Like, he was just his nickname was the bulldozer. And the reason he sent me the screenshot in this specific part of the podcast, he's like, this is just like Daniel. And one thing that Chung would talk about is as the the more you progress in your career, the bigger the company gets, the more, like, rigid it gets. Yeah. They go from, like, default optimistic, default risk taking to any new idea, no, no, no, no, no.

对，就像'这个太冒险不能做'，'我们这小岛国哪能造汽车'之类。

Yeah. Like, no, we're not doing that. That's too risky. Like, we can't build a car. Like, we're a tiny little, you know, island.

他说丹尼尔·达克给过相同建议——当我否决某个提议时，他会反问'你试过了吗？'。这体现了他跨界探索的能力，即便对行业一无所知也敢涉足。

And he goes, Daniel Duck gives me the same exact advice where he will say something, I will say no. And he goes, But did you even try? Yeah. And I go And then he goes, It's related to his ability, if you actually analyze, his willingness to go into all these different industries where he doesn't know anything about the industry. Yeah.

没错，这让我想起萧伯纳那句名言——关于'不理性之人'的论述。

Yeah. Yeah. And I I I think that sort of comes back to to the George Bernard Shaw Shaw quote. Right? The unreasonable man.

让我完整引用这段精辟的话：理性之人适应世界，非理性之人坚持让世界适应自己。故一切进步皆仰赖非理性之人。

Let me read the full quote because it's an excellent quote too. The reasonable man adapts himself to the world. The unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man.

我在家里的墙上画了它。是的。我时常想起那幅画。因为我认为现实情况是，不随波逐流、不融入群体真的非常非常困难。而随大流却如此容易。

I have it painted on my wall at home. Yeah. And I'm I'm just reminded of that. Because I think the reality is it is really, really tough to not conform, to not be part of a group. And it's so easy.

生活中有太多诱惑会让我们重新回到那种从众状态。对吧？金钱就是其中之一。当你赚了很多钱，生活往往会变得更舒适。于是你会花更多时间打高尔夫。

And there's so many temptations in life that draws us back to that conformity. Right? Money is another one. When you make a lot of money, tend to make life more comfortable. So you tend to spend more time golfing.

你会把时间花在各种其他事情上。但现实是你变得分心，再也无法保持最佳状态。所以困难之处在于坚持前进、持续改进、继续做这些事。但为此你必须牺牲很多。你将错过亲友的生日、社交活动。

You spend some time doing all these other things. But the reality is you become distracted, and you're not gonna be on your A game anymore. And so the hard thing then is to keep going and keep improving and keep doing these things. But you're gonna have to sacrifice a lot in doing so. You're gonna sacrifice people's birthdays, social commitments.

你知道，很多场合你都不会出现。

You're not gonna show up, you know, for for a lot of things.

你曾给我讲过一个有趣的故事，关于你对工作有多投入。你的朋友都知道，有时你们正在吃晚餐，突然你想到某个点子或需要处理的事，他们就会明白——哦，他又进入状态了，

You told me a funny story one time about how committed you are to your work, and your friends know this about you, that sometimes you'll be in the middle of a dinner, and then some like an idea comes to mind or something you need to pursue, and they just know, oh, he he's gone and he's

不会再回到谈话中了。是的。没错。我不会——我不会

not going back to you. Yeah. Yeah. I'm not I'm not

这简直不可理喻

That is an unreasonable

是啊。

Yeah.

你知道，人们总是说‘社交礼仪让我没法那样做’。有时候连我自己也会这样，因为我们都是内向的人。我们之前聊过这个。但我总被邀请参加团体聚餐，感觉像是‘哇，这可是高端饭局’。

You know, people are oh, I can't do that with social etiquette. Like, I even sometimes I find myself to do this because we're both introverts. We've talked about this before. But like, I kept getting invited to group dinners. And I just felt like, Oh, this is like a prestigious group dinner.

这人真的很成功，大家都会珍惜这种机会。所以刚开始时我还去参加，结果发现糟透了。记得有次在包间里，门一关，

This person's really successful. People would love this opportunity. And so at the beginning when I first started doing this, I started going. I'm like, this sucks. I don't I remember one time, was in a private room, and they shut the doors.

不到五分钟我就意识到‘必须得逃’

And within like five minutes, I knew I was like, I got to get out

出去。

of here.

我就想‘别慌，假装去洗手间然后永远’

I was like, don't worry. I'm going to pretend to go to the bathroom and just never

不回来了。我当时就

go back. I was like,

因为我站起来问，洗手间在哪儿？结果发现就在房间里。唉，真是的。

because I stand up and go, where's the restroom? Like, it's right in the room. Like, oh, no.

唉，糟糕。

Oh, no.

而我当时的做法——现在绝不会这么做了——是坐下来白白浪费了一个半小时。没错。而不是做个不讲理的人。对。就像，我不会说，丹尼尔会怎么表现？

And what I did, which I wouldn't do today, is I sat down and I wasted an hour and a half of my time. Yeah. Instead of just being the unreasonable man. Yeah. Like, I'm not gonna say, like, what would Daniel act out?

他会直接

He would get

直接 对。

get Yeah.

他一开始就会避开这顿饭局。

He would get our avoid the dinner in the first place.

是啊是啊。我我我得说，偷偷溜走这种事我做得并不光彩。但你看，归根结底，我觉得这与其说是保护我的时间，不如说是保护那些独特新颖的想法——它们实在太罕见了。对了，我们稍后应该会讨论这个，不过我觉得很多创业者似乎过分执着于时间管理。

Yeah. Yeah. I I I would say, you know, I'm not proud proud over sneaking out sometimes on that. But but look, I mean, at at at the end of the day, I I think that that's less about sort of being protecting my time, and more sort of about protecting unique and novel ideas and how rare they are. By the way, we'll hopefully get into that, but I think less about sort of a lot of entrepreneurs seem to be obsessed about time.

其实并不是。我更痴迷于能量管理。

I'm really not. I'm more obsessed about energy management.

等等，好的，我们现在就来谈谈这个。你是什么意思？

Wait, Yeah, let's get to it now. What do you mean?

嗯，我是说，你知道，你总是听到这些说法，比如你应该凌晨4点起床，应该做这些事情等等。首先，根本没有固定规则。我认识很多成功人士，相信你也是，他们有些人中午才起床，有些人凌晨4点就起。关键在于，你可以做很多...

Well, I I mean, you you know, you you constantly hear this thing about all these you know, you're supposed to wake up at 4AM in the morning, and you're supposed to do all these things, etcetera. It's like, first and foremost, there's no rule. Like, I know a lot of successful people, and as I'm sure you do too, it's like, some of them wake up at, you know, noon, some of them wake up at 4AM. It's like, you can do a lot of

不同的事情。对晨间仪式的执念很愚蠢。

different things. The obsession with morning rituals is stupid.

没错。但另一件事是，人们总说要把日程塞满，比如每15分钟安排一个会议，认为15分钟比30分钟更高效，诸如此类。听着，这可能适合你。对某些人来说，这可能是最佳方案。

Yeah. But the other thing is about sort of you're supposed to pack every like, you're supposed to have meetings every 15, and, like, a fifteen minute increments is better than a thirty minute increments, so on and so forth. Look. It might work for you. And and for some people, it might be, like, the absolute best thing.