大卫·巴斯祖基，Roblox

我觉得，一个通信平台最自然的发展方向，就是人们实际怎么用它。

I think the natural evolution of a communication platform is what are the ways people use a communication platform.

我最喜欢的一句话出自《从零到一》：我观察到最强大的规律是，成功的人总能在意想不到的地方发现价值，因为他们用第一性原理思考商业，而不是照搬公式。

One of my all time favorite quotes is from the book Zero to It says, the single most powerful pattern I have noticed is that successful people find value in unexpected places, and they do this by thinking about business from first principles instead of formulas.

AppLovin 做他们的新广告平台 Axon，就是这么干的。

This is exactly what AppLovin has done with their new advertising platform, Axon.

Axon 是这一代最强大的广告平台。

Axon is the most powerful advertising platform in a generation.

Axon 能让你抓住用户完全专注的注意力。

Axon allows you to capture undivided attention.

Axon 的广告是全屏视频，平均观看时长高达三十五秒，留存率远超其他广告平台。

Axon ads are full screen videos that are watched for an average of thirty five seconds, retention that blows other ad platforms out of the water.

而且几分钟就能上线。

And you can launch in minutes.

你定好目标，Axon 自动帮你达成。

You set the goal and Axon achieves it.

不用复杂设置，也不需要专业技能。

No complex setup, no expertise needed.

而且Axon扩展起来特别快。

And Axon scales quickly.

他们能把你的广告推给超过十亿潜在客户。

They can put your ads in front of over a billion potential customers.

其他公司已经马上见效，每天投放几十万美元，收入涨了上百万。

Other businesses have seen immediate results scaled to hundreds of thousands of dollars of spend per day and increased their revenue by millions.

但大多数广告主还没想到这个渠道呢。

And most advertisers aren't even thinking about this channel yet.

目前不到1%的广告主能用上Axon，你得赶紧下手。

Less than 1% of advertisers have access to Axon, so you want to get started quickly.

去axon.ai/senra就能申请。

You can do that by going to axon.ai/senra.

就是axon.ai/senra。

That is axon.ai/senra.

我还是没完全搞懂你这个愿景的深度和广度。

I still don't think I understand the total depth and breadth of your vision.

所以如果我来找你，对Roblox一无所知，而你是系统设计师，我说：‘好吧，给我讲讲你到底做了什么。’

So if I come to you and I don't know anything about Roblox, and you're the systems designer, and I say, Okay, explain to me what you have built.

这个问题你慢慢说，不着急。

Take as long as you want with this question.

如果要从大方向说，我觉得这其实是人类沟通方式的延续。

If we had to talk super expansively, I would say, look, there's a continuation on the human development of how we communicate.

我们之前说过，这有点像全息甲板。

We said earlier, it's a bit like the holodeck.

但现在我们造的这个全息甲板还非常初级。

Right now, the holodeck that we're building is very primitive.

离逼真还差得远。

It's not photorealistic yet.

你目前还进不去里面。

You don't go inside of it yet.

但你确实会进入一个三维环境，那都是你能想象、思考或自己打造出来的世界。

But you do go into a three d environment, mostly that you could imagine or think about or build.

你可以和朋友一起进去玩捉迷藏。

You can go there with your friends and play hide and go seek.

也可以玩一些传统游戏。

You can play a traditional game.

还能参加像《Dress to Impress》这样的时尚秀。

You can be in a fashion show like Dress to Impress.

这个虚拟世界里的所有地方，都是由创作者社区打造的。

All of the places you go in the holodeck are made by a creator community.

我们在这个系统里融入了一套经济体系。

We've incorporated an economy into this system.

绝大多数人进去玩都是免费的。

So the vast majority of people who go do that for free.

但我们的创作者特别有想法、很精明，总能想出各种让人愿意花钱的点子。

Our creators, though, are very thoughtful and savvy, and they come up with interesting ways to spend money.

所以当我们进入《Dress to Impress》参加时尚秀时，如果我想买点什么，其实是可以买的。

So when we go into dress to impress and go into a fashion show, there may be something I can buy if I so choose it.

说白了，我们的创作者因为有这个平台，才能不断搞出些新花样，有些东西我们平时可能管它叫游戏，也可能是体验。

And in a way, our creators, because they have this platform, are able to innovate new types of things that we think of sometimes as games or experiences.

你发现没？最近Roblox上最火的几个项目，不是时尚穿搭，就是《Dress to Impress》，再不就是种花园。

You know, it's funny that the top hits on Roblox recently have either been fashion, dress to impress, or grow a garden.

这事儿其实挺酷的。

You know, it's like, that's pretty cool.

明白了。

Okay.

但你倒是说说，这世界到底是怎么搭起来的？

But explain how you built the world though.

背后其实藏着一大堆技术，Roblox可不是表面看起来那么简单。

Behind the scenes, there's a massive amount of technology in Roblox.

为了让体验显得这么顺滑、容易上手，我们底下有个叫‘Roblox操作系统’的底层架构，正是它支撑着整个Roblox的运作。

Like this is, to make it seem as transparent and easy as it does, there's an underlayer we call the Roblox operating system, which is the company that's then building this Roblox thing.

从系统思维的角度来看，我们把自己公司看作一个整体，而Roblox实际上像是在同时运营九家独立的公司。

And kind of in line with kind of system thinking, we think of our company as the system and the company Roblox is really running almost as if it's nine separate companies.

不过它们之间联系得非常紧密。

They are all very well connected.

我们每周都会聚一次，把这九家‘公司’的节奏对齐起来。

We all get together once a week and connect all these companies together.

有一家公司专门负责三维云模拟和工具集基础设施，背后有40个数据中心、几十万台电脑在运转。

There is a three d cloud simulation and toolset infrastructure company running with 40 data centers and hundreds of thousands of computers.

那你为啥要这么干呢？

Why'd you decide to do that?

其实一开始，我们就是想试试看，说白了，当时挺天真的。

We initially, we just wanted, we were actually pretty naive.

本来我们也没打算自己搞云，那时候AWS刚冒头，S3也才刚开始有人用。

And so rather than going down this cloud path, I would say right when we were starting Roblox, AWS was just starting to be a thing and S3 was just starting to be a thing.

但那时候我们就是特别想自己从头搭建一套。

We liked the idea initially of building it ourselves.

五年后，大家开始热议这家公司到底是该全用云服务，还是该自己从头搭建。

Five years later, I think that's when there's a lot of discussion about this company's all cloud, this company's all build it themselves kind of thing.

那时候我们才意识到，自己搞一套其实更省钱、更能扩展。

We at that point started to see building in for ourselves as being a cost benefit and a scale benefit.

所以我说，我们跟AWS、GCP这些云厂商合作得特别好。

And so I would say we're great partners with AWS and GCP and others.

我们确实会用它们来应对突发流量。

We do burst into those platforms.

但以我们现在的规模和成本要求，自己搞反而更高效。

But at the scale we're working and the cost we're working, we do this very efficiently.

整个Roblox平台，算下来每个人每小时的开销还不到一美分。

Like all of Roblox runs for less than a penny an hour for every person around the world.

这事儿特别关键。

And that's super critical.

我们还能说得更深，但Roblox本质上是——

And we can go in deeper, but Roblox is really

咱们再深入聊聊吧。

a Let's nine year go in deeper.

咱们回头说说那九家公司吧，这事儿我才刚想明白，就是我之前说的那些。

Want go back to the nine companies because this is stuff this is what I meant before we started recording.

你脑子里装了这么多稀奇古怪的东西，我可从来没在别的播客里听过。

Was like, you got all this crazy shit in your head that I haven't heard in any of the podcasts.

咱们得想办法把它们全倒出来。

We've got to find a way to get it out.

我们跟Roblox的操作系统深度绑定，公司运转全靠它。

We are so underneath Roblox, Roblox operating system, it's how we run the company.

有一支工程师团队不搞Roblox本身，专门负责Roblox操作系统，研究各个团队怎么协作、公司怎么运作这些事。

We have a group of engineers working not on Roblox, but on the Roblox operating system, looking at who are the various teams, how we're organized, how we do all of our things in the company.

等等。

Hold on.

倒回去说。

Back up.

等等。

Back up.

你有个工程师团队在搞Roblox操作系统，其实就是用来管理公司运作的系统。

You have a team of engineers working on the Roblox operating system, which is just the operating system on how to run the company.

没错。

That's correct.

公司在打造一个世界。

Company building the world.

对。

That's right.

好的。

Okay.

是啊，高效地运营公司，才是实现这个愿景最有力的方式。

Yeah, because running the company efficiently is the most powerful way to then build this vision.

我就不细说我们怎么用AI来赋能创作者了，但我们的工程师们

I won't go into the extent we use AI acceleration amongst our creators, but having all of our engineers

你为啥不想谈这个？

Why won't you go into it?

我不想透露任何非公开的信息，但可以说，这跟Roblox操作系统的理念完全一致。

Well, I don't want to say anything nonpublic, but I would say, like, that is right in line with Roblox operating system.

每个工程师、产品经理、数据科学家和设计师，怎么才能发挥出最佳状态？

How does every engineer, product manager, data scientist, designer work in optimal ways?

像游戏引擎、云服务这些团队的负责人，他们是怎么像微型CEO一样运作的？

How does the leader of an individual group like that game engine cloud thing, how do they actually operate almost like a mini CEO?

他们是怎么管理这条垂直链条的？

How do they run that vertical stack?

他们怎么把控团队里工程师和产品经理的构成？

How do they control the types of engineers and product managers?

他们怎么给这些人发工资、激励他们？

How they compensate them?

这些事儿对我们公司运转来说特别关键。

That's a really big part of how we run our company.

我觉得我们一直在做的，就是让这些内部团队有充分的自主权，同时又不断把它们横向连起来。

And I'd say that the common thread of what we try to do is have as much autonomy on these groups or companies within and then simultaneously horizontally just continuously try to connect it together.

我们有很多团队能独立快速推进事情，然后我们不停地把它们粘合在一起。

So we have lots of groups who can go and do things very quickly on their own, and then we glue them together constantly.

你是怎么设计出公司现在的运作方式的？

How did you come to the design of the way you have the company operating?

很久以前，Roblox 曾经按三个横向模块来运作，那是个关键转折点。

There was a pivotal moment a long time at Roblox where we were running it as three horizontal stacks.

那时候我们分的是网页层、基础设施层。

We were running it as the web stack and the infrastructure stack.

我们发现，如果有人在做社交图谱这样的功能，就得去跟网页层、基础设施层、前端层一个个争取资源。

And what we would see is, you know, if someone's working on a specific feature like the social graph, they would have to go and try to get enough bandwidth out of the web stack and the infra stack and the front end stack.

所以每次都要来回协商。

So there's always a negotiation amongst that.

而且根本说不清到底是谁在做这个社交图谱。

And it was hard to say who is building this social graph.

所以我们调整了做法，让一个人全权负责整个社交图谱、面向用户的组件以及网页和基础设施部分。

So there was a rotation of that where we said, no, someone is going be in charge of the whole social graph, user facing components, web component infra.

突然间，效率就上去了，因为他们能在这些模块之间灵活调配资源。

And all of sudden we got a lot of acceleration because they could load balance between all of those pieces.

这个经验一直沿用至今，而且它是层层递归的。

So that lesson's been with us today and actually it runs recursively.

比如我刚才提到的这个团队——游戏引擎组，它内部又拆分成更小的单元，也都按照同样的方式运作。

So within our, for example, this one group or company I've been talking about, the game engine group, that is subdivided into smaller pieces that also run kind of in that same way.

你其实是创造了一套基础模块？

Essentially, you created a series of primitives?

是的，某种程度上是这样。

Yeah, in a way.

我们有一套底层机制，从团队到小组再到小单元，层层递归地管理公司，我们也刻意让这套机制成为推动业务发展的加速器。

We have a primitive system for how we run the company recursively from groups to teams to pods, and we've tried to make that somewhat an accelerant in how we build the business.

但你们看待这九个单元时，是不是把它们当成公司内部的独立企业？

But the way you think about these nine, you think of them as almost individual companies inside the company, We is that

你们管这些叫团队，但我们希望每个团队的负责人能感受到充分的自主权，就像在运营一个相对独立、又彼此交叉的实体。

the term you call them groups, but the leaders of these groups, we want them to feel that autonomy of as much as possible running a pseudo autonomous thing that intersects with each other.

这就像是一个游戏引擎公司，正在跟一个云基础设施和存储公司对话。

And, you know, it's almost like we would have a game engine simulation company talking to an infrastructure, cloud computing and storage company.

他们之间紧密协作。

They work with each other.

这个建立在那个之上。

This sits on top of that.

但我们希望每个团队都能拥有最大的速度和自主性。

But we want as much speed and autonomy in each of these groups.

再详细说说你们是怎么组织的。

Say more about how this is organized.

这真的太有意思了。

This is very fascinating.

对，没错，确实如此。

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

不是的，我们每周二都开高管会议。

No, we executive staff meeting every Tuesday.

每次聚在一起四五个小时。

We get together four or five hours.

这九家公司的负责人都会来参加。

Leaders of all these nine companies come together.

我们会分别看看他们各自在忙什么，但更多时间是讨论那些把大家串起来的跨部门事项。

We go through the things they're working on by themselves, but we go through a lot of times of all of the horizontal things that are bringing them together.

哪些跨部门事项把大家连在一起？

What are the horizontal things bringing them together?

说来有趣，连我们高管会都追踪得特别细，细节程度简直夸张。

It's funny, but we track at a like a ridiculously high level of fidelity, even in our executive staff meeting.

我们大概列了五六十项关键任务，关系到本季度、下季度，还有今年剩下的目标能不能达成。

So we, you know, we have probably 50 to 60 things that are core to hitting, you know, the objectives we have this quarter, next quarter, the rest of the year.

这就像公司和团队层面，亲手挑出来的一份清单，全是代表我们成功的关键事项。

It's almost like a hand curated list at the company level and group level of things that we think are emblematic as a way of our success.

每周我们都会把所有这些团队的关键负责人聚在一起，逐项过一遍这50件事。

And every week we have all of the key leaders of all of those groups come together and we just go through all that list of 50.

那这个会都有谁参加？

So who's in this meeting?

是这九个人直接向你汇报吗？

It's these nine people, they're reporting directly to you?

有些人直接向我汇报，有些人则向其他人汇报，不过我们也会请几位工程师来参加。

Some of them report to me, some report to some without, but there's probably we'll bring in a few other engineers as well.

所以这个会一般有十五到十八个人左右。

So there's probably 15 or 18 people in that meeting.

我们每次就花一个小时专门

And we spend an hour just

不对。

No.

你得给我解释清楚这个。

What's the you got to explain that.

关键交付物，从第一项到第五十项。

Key deliverable one through 50.

一小时里搞定？

This In an hour?

每项两分钟。

It's two minutes.

每件事大概一到两分钟。

It's like one to two minutes an issue.

我之前采访过Snapchat的创始人埃文·斯皮格尔。

I recorded with Evan Spiegel, founder of Snapchat.

对。

Yeah.

他在讲他们的设计会议。

And he was explaining his design meeting.

他说我记不清了，可能是一两个小时吧，我得回头再听一遍那期节目。

And he says, I forgot, maybe an hour or two hours, I have to listen to the episode back.

他会，咱们得过几百个点子。

He's But like, we'll go over hundreds of ideas.

然后咱们飞快地一个接一个过。

And we just go through it really, really, really rapidly.

我们有个核心清单，大概在五十到七十个之间。

We have our core list that goes between fifty and seventy.

这些点子每个月、两个月、三个月甚至四个月轮换一次。

They cycle every month or two or three or four.

我们一直在往里加新东西。

We're constantly putting new things in.

你们怎么跟踪这么多事的？

How do you keep track of all this?

我们有个挺靠谱的CEO团队。

We have a pretty good office of CEO team.

我们有自己的Roblox操作系统。

We have the Roblox operating system.

里面有一些软件工具。

It's got some software in there.

我办公室里有一群StratOps的人，都是资深同事，平时抽空帮我处理这些事。

My office has, you know, StratOps people, senior people who kind of work with me to do this on the side.

所以整个流程都是实时进行的。

So it's very real time.

好的，你能再多说说这九家公司吗？

Okay, can you say more about these nine separate companies?

我觉得你之前只讲了其中两家。

I think you described two of them.

是的，我们公开讨论过所有这些公司。

Yeah, we publicly talk about all of them.

比如说有一家专门做人员系统的公司，负责开发Roblox操作系统，还管招聘、员工管理和绩效评估这些事。

So I would say there's a people systems company that actually builds the Roblox operating system and has all of our recruiting and people and performance management stuff.

还有一家基础设施公司，负责运营我们四十个数据中心，以及所有的计算和带宽资源。

There's an infrastructure company, and that's running like our 40 data centers and all of our compute and bandwidth.

Persistence团队也在开发很酷的持久化系统。

Persistence, they're building out cool persistence systems as well.

游戏引擎、模拟工具和Roblox Studio，都归在一个团队里。

Game engines, simulation tooling and Roblox Studio, sitting in a group or a company.

还有一个叫经济组的团队。

There is a group called the Economy Group.

所有跟Robux相关的：怎么赚钱、怎么收款、记账这些，全都在这儿。

It's literally all of the things around how we have Robux, how we monetize, how we collect money, the ledger, all of that.

有一个超大的团队，可能是最大的安全与文明团队，涵盖工程、产品、政策和运营，由一位首席安全官Matt统一领导，他能全权决策。

There's a very large group, arguably the largest safety and civility group, engineering, product, policy and live ops under a single threaded leader, Chief Safety Officer, Matt, who can just run that whole thing and make decisions.

还有一个面向用户的团队，负责社交关系链、传播机制，以及让Roblox能在不同平台运行的各种应用。

There is a user facing group that is all involved with Social Graph, virality, the various apps we have for having Roblox run-in different places.

这些面向用户的团队种类可真不少。

So there's like a wide range of these user groups.

这九个团队，每个都有单一的负责人吗？

Does all do all nine of these companies have the single threaded leader?

有些

Some of

还是矩阵式管理的。

them are still matrixed.

很多是单线汇报的。

Many of them are single threaded.

我们确实有几位负责人同时管着两个工程团队，所以还没做到绝对完美。

We do have some leaders that run have engineering under two of them, so it's not absolutely perfect.

有些团队，可能由产品经理来带会更合适，而不是工程师。

And in some of these, these are better run by maybe a product person than an eng person.

但总体来说，每个团队都有一到两位明确的负责人，我们都清楚是谁。

But generally, there's one or two leaders for each of these groups that we know exactly who it is.

你觉得一年后还会是这样吗？

Do you think that'll be the case a year from now?

我觉得会，是的。

I think so, yeah.

好吧，所以你觉得没必要改对吧？

Okay, so you don't see the need to change that?

对。

No.

行，那我们回到前面。

All right, so let's go back.

这真是太有意思了。

This is very fascinating.

你本质上是设计了一个系统——也就是你们公司——来打造另一个系统，那就是

Essentially, you've designed a system, which is your company, to design another system, which is the

你们正在构建的平台。

platform that you're building.

没错，就是这样。

That's exactly right.

但我还是没搞懂这个跳跃是怎么发生的。

I still don't understand the jump.

所以，让人在几个小时内就开始自己做游戏，你实际上是把用户又变回了创作者。

So within a couple hours of letting people start building their own games, so now you're turning users back into creators.

没错。

That's right.

但那时候根本没什么经济体系。

But there's no economy there.

也没有机器人。

There's no robots.

纯粹就是好玩。

Pure fun.

纯粹就是乐趣。

Pure And

那时候公司也没任何收入吗？

you're not There's no revenue of the company at the time?

一点收入都没有。

No revenue.

就是纯粹的快乐。

Pure fun.

明白了。

Okay.

那你回过头看当时的决定，是不是觉得：我们好像抓住什么了？

So what is taking back to your decisions, you're saying this like, oh, we're onto something.

这事儿能成。

This is going to work.

那你接下来是怎么想的？

What's your next thought?

后来，Roblox 开始进入一种持续自发传播的状态。

So then what starts happening is Roblox started a persistently viral mode.

我们能一天天、一周周地看到增长。

Like we could track the growth day by day, week by week.

这完全是自然增长。

It's like, this is organic growth.

这可不是花钱买来的用户。

This is not paid acquisition.

我们就坐在那儿看着它自己涨起来。

It's just like we're sitting back and watching that.

后来，乐趣就开始自然出现了。

We then, the fun started being there.

从十几个人在线，到一百、一千、一万，创作者越来越多，作品也越来越棒。

Was just like 10 concurrent, 100 concurrent, 1,000 concurrent, 10,000 concurrent creations are getting better.

我们越把Roblox工作室做得好，它就越容易火。

We know everything we do with Roblox Studio, the better Roblox Studio gets, the more viral it is.

游戏引擎越强大，它就越容易病毒式传播。

The better the game engine is, the more viral it is.

很早的时候，得亏了Erik，就在第三或第四周的下午，我们已经能叫出好多人的名字了。

Very early on to Erik's credit, think literally on week three or week four in the afternoon when we're now we're sitting there, we know the names of a lot of these people.

那时候已经有好几百人了。

There's hundreds of people.

埃里克说，咱们得先做个安全审核系统。

Erik said, we need to build the first safety moderation system.

约翰、马特和我都觉得，他说得对。

John and Matt and I all look at it and say, you're right.

他确实说得对。

He's right.

天哪，这事儿真得赶紧办。

Oh my gosh.

咱们必须马上着手处理这个事。

Like, we got to get on this thing.

于是中途我们就慢慢搭起了一个审核系统。

So along the way, build like a moderation system.

用户举报功能啥的都加上了。

We have user reporting, all of that.

很长一段时间里，马特、埃里克、约翰和我轮流当审核员。

For a long time, Matt and, Erik and John and myself, we were the moderators, like we would switch off.

所以我们得先感受一下那种氛围。

So we got to get a vibe of that.

于是这件事就这么一直推进着。

And so this keeps marching on.

后来我们终于想：怎么才能靠这个东西赚钱呢？

And then finally we say, okay, how can we start making some money on this thing?

用户量在涨啊。

It's growing.

开销也跟着上来了，各种成本。

We have costs, all of that.

说来有意思，这又是一个我们对虚拟经济有强烈直觉的例子。

Interestingly enough, this is another example of we had a big intuition around virtual economy.

我们觉得，要是搞个会员俱乐部，这事儿能推得更快。

We said, we can get this out a little faster if we build this club membership thing.

那时候，Club Penguin 就有会员制。

At that time, Club Penguin had a club membership.

咱们能不能就收每人每月五块钱？

Can we just charge people $5 a month for something?

于是我们就捣鼓了阵子这个点子。

So we worked on that for a while.

后来搞出了个叫“建造者俱乐部”的东西，还挺有意思的。

And so we had this thing called Builders Club that was kind of fun.

我们终于开始赚钱了。

We started monetizing.

跟我们刚起步时一模一样。

Exact same thing as when we started.

有一次我去露营，还能实时查看每天有多少人买建造者俱乐部。

We had this really fun moment where I was on a camping trip and I could check-in how many people are buying Builders Club every day.

第一天卖了五份，接着是四份，然后六份、三份、八份，最后冲到十五份。

First day it was five, and then it was four, then it was six, then it was three, then it was eight, then it was 15.

那时候我们就知道：成了，真赚钱了。

So we're like, Okay, we're monetizing.

这太棒了。

This is great.

于是Builders Club就这么持续下去了。

And so Builders Club keeps going.

接下来大概一两年，因为效果出奇的好，哇，完全是病毒式增长，Builders Club开始自己疯长了。

And then for about a year or two, because it was working so well, Wow, it's just all viral growth, viral builders club is starting to work.

我们就继续优化这个系统，让它变得越来越好。

Let's just keep working on the system, making it better and better.

不过这挺有意思的，就像当初我们做拼图游戏时那样，最后发现市场告诉我们，那根本不是终极方案。

It was interesting, though, just like in the early days when we started the puzzle game and then said, finally, the market has shown us that's not the ultimate system.

不如我们直接做自己真正相信的东西。

Let's build what we really believe.

Builders Club也经历了类似的情况。

Something very similar happened with the Builders Club.

于是我们进入了一个很特别的阶段：用户增长一路飙升，但收入和订单却慢吞吞的。

And we entered this interesting period where user growth was going like this, but revenue and bookings was kind of going like this.

所以这意味着，Builders Club 有点过时了。

And so what that meant is Builders Club was getting a little old and stale.

对大多数普通用户来说，它根本不是合适的选择。

And for the wider range of users, it was really not the right thing.

回头想想还挺有意思，当初我们刚创业时，用的标语是‘你来制作游戏’。

And in retrospect, it's funny because when we started the company, we used taglines like you make the game.

那确实是个很棒的早期标语。

And that's a really good early tagline.

它很有吸引力。

It's aspirational.

大家都在 Roblox 上做游戏——听起来是这么回事。

Everyone's making games on Roblox.

但现实是，十亿用户里哪可能人人都做游戏啊。

That's definitely not the reality of, you know, a billion users.

对于十亿用户来说，很多人根本不需要做游戏，沟通本身就已经很重要了。

And in a billion users, communication for many people would be very important without having to make a game.

很多人只是想上线玩点东西而已。

There's a lot of people that just want to show up and play something.

对，你刚才说，我最后看到的数据是，你大概有1.5亿日活跃用户吧，差不多是这个数。

Yeah, think right now you said, last number I saw, you have like, I don't know, 150,000,000 daily active users or something, Roughly.

就是最近公布的那个数字。

Whatever the last public number was.

这1.5亿里，有多少人在做游戏？

Out of those 150, how many are building games?

1.5亿啊。

150,000,000.

我们没公开过最新的Roblox Studio数据，但用的人肯定不少，肯定没到一千万。

I don't know if we give out our latest Roblox Studio numbers, but it's definitely a lot of people, but it's not 10,000,000.

比例很小。

Small percent.

大概一两百万吧。

It's one or 2,000,000.

我觉得好消息是，这种愿景其实有可能实现，因为随着AI的加速发展，还有我们正在做的这些事，就像视频和YouTube刚起步那会儿，大多数人只是看内容。

And I would say the good news is that vision may actually return because I do think over time with AI acceleration and all of the things we're working on, just like maybe in the very early days of video or YouTube was mostly consumptive.

早期确实有那么一点点创作，但不多。

There was a little bit of this early, you know, creation.

但到了短视频时代，我觉得几乎人人都开始拍视频了。

And then with short form video, I think we much everyone's starting to make videos.

我觉得Roblox也有这种潜力。

I do think there's that potential for, something like Roblox.

对，尤其是如果他们能用自然语言来操作的话。

Yeah, especially if they can do it in natural language.

没错。

Exactly.

所以在这个过程中，我们突然意识到，也许Reason Builders Club之所以让人疲惫，是因为并不是每个人都想当创作者。

So along the way, we kind of had this revelation that, well, maybe the way Reason Builders Club is getting tired is not everyone wants to be a builder.

很多人只是想玩得开心而已。

A lot of people just want to have a lot of fun.

所以我们当时也有一个很直观的愿景。

And so we had had also a big intuitive vision.

另一个永动机式的点子，就是虚拟经济。

What would really be cool, another perpetual motion machine, is virtual economy.

人们愿意花钱。

And people spend money.

他们买Robux。

They buy Robux.

如果我们能让创作者摸索出各种让玩家愿意买Robux的方式，又不破坏体验或降低乐趣，那哪怕只有一小部分用户愿意买，也够了。

If we can allow the creators to figure out all the different ways someone might buy Robux without hurting their experience or making it any less fun, then a small portion of users will buy some Robux.

他们会把Robux花在游戏里。

They'll spend it in the game.

创作者就能把赚到的Robux存进他们的Roblox账户里。

The creator will accumulate those Robux and their Roblox Robux bank account.

然后换成真钱，这就形成了另一个良性循环。

They'll cash them out for real money, and that should create another perpetual motion loop.

有意思的是，我们当时确实跟董事会讨论了很多次，这到底是不是个好主意。

Interestingly enough, we actually had a lot of board discussions like, is that a good idea or not?

后来董事会终于被我说服了，我可能是最积极推动这件事的人，因为我相信，那些纯粹出于爱好的人，真能靠这个养活自己。

And the board came around like I was probably the biggest pusher of it because I believe some people who were hobbyists would then be able to go and earn a living.

只要你能这么做，普通人从爱好变成在Roblox上赚钱，完全有可能。

Like you could go from hobbyists to earning a living on Roblox if you could do this.

所以我们照搬了Roblox Studio的模式，做了同样的事。

So we did that very similar to the Roblox Studio situation.

我们建了一套完整的闭环系统。

We had a full closed loop system.

这个闭环的意思是，你是个创作者。

And the closed loop system means I'm a creator.

你可以做出一个游戏或者体验。

I can make a game or an experience.

玩家可以用Robux买你做的额外内容。

You can buy something extra for Robux.

可能是用来当手电筒的。

Could be a flashlight for something.

作为用户，我可以用信用卡买一些Robux。

As a user, I can go buy some Robux with a credit card.

我就能买下它。

I can buy that.

从发现的角度来看，我们开始展示那些大家花Robux最多的热门游戏。

And also from a discovery standpoint, we started showing top games where people are spending Robux.

上线后大概一两个小时就出现了这种情况。

So same thing within about an hour or two of going live.

天哪。

Oh my gosh.

这就是大家花Robux最多的游戏。

That's the top game where people are spending Roblox or Robux.

更多人涌入了

More people went into

而且随着用户增长，这个模式也会跟着扩大，就像之前的建造者俱乐部那样。

And that's going to scale with user growth in a way that the Builders Club And would

我们其实发现了一个特别巧妙的经济系统，它几乎能超线性地随我们的发展而扩张。

what we basically hit is an elegant, you know, economy that pretty much scales more than linearly with ours, basically.

我们发现，即使没刻意去优化用户参与度和留存率，而是专注于钱，开发者们自然会平衡好互动和收益。

And what we have found, without still optimizing generally for engagement and retention, not for money, is that developer incentive to balance engagement and money.

如果玩得开心非得花钱不可，那你的游戏根本火不起来。

If everyone needs to spend money to have fun, your game isn't viral.

所以创作者们早就悟透了这一点。

So creators have kind of figured that out.

这就成了一个自我运转的良性循环。

And so that's been another perpetual motion machine.

Deel 能帮你的企业在全球任何地方招聘、支付和管理员工。

Deel will help your business hire, pay, and manage any worker anywhere in the world.

Deel 是全球在搭建跨国雇佣基础设施方面最顶尖的公司。

Deel is the best company in the world at building infrastructure for global hiring.

Deel 是一个统一平台，覆盖全球150个国家的薪资、人力、福利和设备管理。

Deel is one platform for payroll, HR, benefits, and device management across 150 countries.

Deel 让你在一个原生AI平台上，轻松搞定全球团队运营所需的一切。

Deel gets you everything you need to run a high performing global workforce on a single AI native platform.

从发offer到离职全流程，Deel 都帮你搞定复杂事务，让你专心做业务。

From first offer to final off boarding, Deel handles the complexity so you can stay focused on your business.

世界上顶尖的创始人和管理者，都有一个共同点。

The best founders and operators in the world have one thing in common.

他们都尽可能掌控自己的业务，而Deel的创始人正是这么做的。

They control as much of their business as possible, and the founders of Deel do exactly this.

用Deel，你不是在用第三方发薪公司，也不是靠一堆本地服务商拼凑的乱七八糟系统。

When you use Deel, you aren't using a third party payroll processor or a messy network of in country providers.

Deel 自己搭建并完全掌控了整个底层系统。

Deel built and owns the rails.

这意味着更快的速度、更好的服务，以及百分百的责任可追溯。

That means faster speed, better service, and total accountability.

我做这个播客的字幕用的是Eleven Labs，它的创始人对Deel能给企业带来的价值有个特别贴切的描述。

The founder of Eleven Labs, who I use to make transcripts for this podcast, has a great description of the value that Deel can give your company.

他说，我们创建Eleven Labs，就是为了打破语言和沟通的障碍。

He said, we built eleven Labs to break down language and communication barriers.

有了Deel，我们能在全球任何地方招聘并支持顶尖人才，这让我们能更快创新，把更多声音、故事和想法带到世界的每个角落。

With Deel enabling us to hire and support exceptional talent anywhere, we can accelerate our innovation and bring more voices, stories, and ideas to every corner of the world.

Deel已经赢得了四万多家客户的信赖，而且还在快速增长。

Deel is trusted by over 40,000 customers and growing fast.

想了解他们怎么帮你的企业？去deal.com/senra看看。

Learn how they can help your business by going to deal.com/senra.

就是deal.com/senra。

That is deal.com/senra.

你在Roblox上线后多久，就推出了这个第二代永动机——虚拟经济、虚拟货币？

You launched this second perpetual motion machine, this virtual economy, this currency, a virtual economy, how many years into Roblox?

特别早，大概十五年前吧。

Very early on, it's gotta be fifteen years ago.

明白了。

Okay.

所以你已经打造这个经济体系十五年了。

So you've been building this economy for fifteen years.

没错。

That's right.

是不是还有一个循环机制？比如，我一开始只是因为好玩才做游戏。

Is there some another flywheel where it's like, okay, I was making games for fun.

我是个玩家。

I'm a user.

然后你让我变成了创作者。

You turn me into a creator.

那会儿纯粹是图个乐子。

That was all fun.

现在你又把我从创作者变成了创业者。

Now you're turning me from a creator into an entrepreneur.

所以现在我赚得更多了。

Therefore, now I have, I make more money.

而且游戏的质量也得跟着提升。

I can also, it has to increase the quality of the games.

质量确实在提高，但我认为最终它会受限于开发者们的创意，同时我也觉得Roblox在视频领域挺有意思——摄像和显示技术已经相当成熟了，比如4K摄像头、4K 60帧的屏幕。

Quality's gone up, up, I I would say quality is, ultimately gonna be limited, not just by the creativity of our developers, but I also feel an interesting thing about Roblox is in the video space, the camera, the display, they're getting pretty refined, like four ks camera, four ks 60 Hertz display.

跟一百年前那些无声黑白电影比，这技术已经成熟多了。

That's a pretty mature technology relative to maybe black and white movies with no sound one hundred years ago.

但在视频这个新兴领域，我们还没到那一步。

In the video space, in the video co emergent space, we're not there yet.

我们特别兴奋，因为Roblox里有很多技术大牛，他们的终极目标是让视频体验达到人类共处的水平——比如同时容纳上万人在线互动。

Like, we're really excited because there's a lot of technical people at Roblox who I think the ultimate spec is to video what human co experience can be, which is huge crowds of people, 10,000 people.

真实感十足。

Realistic.

画质逼真。

Photo real.

是的

Yeah.

因为现在的游戏看起来太差了。

Because right now, the games look shitty.

我们相信一定能达到照片级真实感。

We we believe we're gonna get to photo real.

我当然不是在贬低你。

I'm not obviously insulting you.

我们相信终将能

We believe we're gonna

达到照片级真实感。

get to photo real.

你们居然走到这一步，是不是特别疯狂？

Isn't it crazy how far you've gotten?

你说到点子上了，关于我们骨子里的东西。

Like, you hit on something about, you know, deep in our nature.

没错。

That's right.

关键是你们不想一个人做这些事。

The fact that you don't want to do things alone.

你

You

不想

don't

就是不想一个人逛街。

That's want to shop alone.

核心是，大家不喜欢这样的游戏

Core don't like games

平台本身其实特别有意思。

of the platform are very interesting.

我觉得这就像当年的无声黑白电影，电影院里没声音，就靠字幕讲故事，但照样火。

And I think it's almost like, you know, Roblox is very sophisticated, very technically complicated, but in a way, that's the same traction one would have gotten on that early, you know, black and white movie in a movie hall without any sound and, like, some text between the scenes.

我刚看到个东西。

I just I just saw something.

所以你之所以能走到这一步，是因为孩子们根本不在乎游戏长啥样。

So you and the fact that you got this far with because the kids don't care what the game looks like.

他们就只想跟朋友一起玩。

They just wanna hang up

就像看那些黑白无声的老电影一样。

with the far with black and white, no sound movies.

要是我站在你这位置，看到你们已经做到这一步了，我肯定会毫不犹豫地继续投钱进去。

I would if I was in your position, I'd feel very confident investing and continuing to reinvest into this platform given how far you got?

你敢想象吗？要是这平台能做到写实画质，能有多大潜力？

Could you imagine how big the platform could be if it's photorealistic?

你能想象吗？在一部只有2G内存的安卓手机上，同时跑一万个写实画质的用户？

Can you imagine 10,000 simultaneous users photorealistic on a two gig Android device?

目前最高同时在线人数是多少？

What's the most concurrent users?

你之前说布鲁诺·火星那次是平台最多的？

You said Bruno Mars was the most you

那次的用户量是平台史上最高的吗？

ever had on the platform or no?

其实同时在线用户数要分两种情况来看。

I think there's two types of concurrency.

布鲁诺那场活动有2000万人参与，但这些用户是分散在多个相同的活动副本里的。

So in Bruno Mars, we're talking 20,000,000 people, but those are sharded amongst copies of experiences.

我们说的那个技术目标——就是同时容纳1万人的场景，其实相当于把一整个篮球馆的人都装进来。

When we say the technical goal is, say, 10,000, that's in a basketball arena.

要同时承载这么多人在线互动，技术实现的难度真的非常高。

And so running 10,000 concurrent people is really technically complicated.

而且这些用户分散在全球各地，却要凑到同一个空间里来。

They may be all around the world trying to get together.

所以我们说的“并发”，是指所有人都处在完全相同的一个环境里，彼此能看到、听到身边的每一个人。

And so when we say concurrency, it's in the exact same environment where you can see and hear every single person.

所以你才总说，Roblox 其实是个基础设施公司，这事儿像个秘密似的？

This is why you keep saying that it's like a little secret that Roblox is actually an infrastructure company?

没错。

That's right.

明白了。

Okay.

你到现在还没搞清楚怎么做出你描述的那种技术，就是你想实现的那些东西。

You have not yet figured out how to create the technology to go with, to do what you're describing, what you want to do.

对吧？

Correct?

你每天干的，就是这事？

And that's what you're doing every day?

我觉得这份工作有意思、有意思的地方就在于，我们大概知道该怎么实现目标。

I would say part of the job being interesting and fun is I think we have a reasonable idea of how we're gonna get there.

但没给时间表，也没说 Roblox 什么时候能实现一万人同时在线、超真实画质这些。

And so no time frame, not saying when Roblox will get 10,000 user photorealistic, all of that.

但从技术上讲，我们大概知道该怎么实现。

But I think technically we have a reasonable idea of how we're going to get there.

这还挺让人兴奋的。

That's kind of exciting.

而且别人很难跟得上。

And very hard to compete with.

我们经营公司的方式，其实挺特别的。

We run the company in a way, it's interesting.

我的意思是，我们经历过太多疯狂的时期了。

I mean, we're in a we've been in many crazy times.

对吧？

Right?

从PC革命、互联网革命、移动革命，到加密货币革命，再到AI加速革命，我们都经历过。

We've been in the PC revolution, the web revolution, mobile revolution, crypto revolution, AI acceleration revolution.

我们得像在经营一家虚拟公司一样来运营这家公司——那家公司真心热爱这个领域。

We have to run the company almost as if we're imagining a virtual other company who really loves this space.

所以我们有个想象中的竞争对手。

So we have like an imaginary competitor.

我们真的是这么思考公司运营的。

So we we literally think about running the company that way.

迈克尔·迪尔在这档播客里也说过同样的话，他说，五年来他一直站起来说：会有一家公司，在我们所有领域都跟我们竞争。

Michael Deel said this exact same thing on this podcast, where, you know, I think five years he's stood up and he's like, know, there's a company that's going to be doing, going to compete in every single area we're in.

他们会做得比我们更快、更好。

They're going to be doing faster, better than us.

会用上这些技术。

Going be doing this technology.

他说，我们就是要成为这家公司。

He goes, and we're going be that company.

没错。

That's right.

他还相信，就算没危机，也要自己制造一个危机。

And he believes in, even if you don't have a crisis, you make a crisis.

咱们得盯着那个虚构的公司，然后把自己变成它。

We we have to we have to look over here at that imaginary company and then be that company.

跟迪尔的想法特别像。

Very similar to how Deel thinks.

我刚做了期关于马斯克的节目，他也说过同样的话。

I just did this episode on Elon, and he said the same thing.

他说，哪怕看起来我们马上就要赢了，我也会默认自己在输。

He's like, even when we're it looks like we're gonna win, I always assume that we're losing.

咱们就得保持这种心态。

Let's keep that mentality.

我想再回过头说一句，好吧。

I wanna go back to, like, okay.

你刚才不是说，你们刚进来的那会儿吗？

So you you stumbled in.

那时候罗布乐思才发展了几年。

They were a couple years into Roblox's history.

现在你有了这个虚拟经济。

Now you have this this virtual economy.

很明显，它的扩展性远超Builders Club。

You can see that it's going to scale way better than Builders Club.

Ho Nam，我想读一下这条推文，因为从他那儿我了解了你好多事。

Ho Nam, again, I wanna read this tweet because, you know, I've got so much information about you from him.

他说，在Roblox早期，这家下一代平台在上线前就拿到了五亿美元的种子轮投资。

And he says in the early days of the journey with Roblox, a next gen Roblox receives $500,000,000 seed round prior to launch.

那时候公司叫Improbable。

Company was called Improbable.

Ho这个人挺有脾气的。

Ho is kind of a spicy guy.

所以是啊。

So Yeah.

对。

Yeah.

对。

Yeah.

这名字起得真贴切。

He was aptly named.

Roblox 是不是只用不到一千万美元的股权，就做到了现金流盈亏平衡？

Does Roblox use less than $10,000,000 of equity to build their business to cash flow breakeven?

真的吗？

Is that true?

是的。

Yes.

没错。

It is.

好的。

Okay.

然后你们在历史上又把数十亿美元重新投入到了未来的自由现金流中，就在接下来的十年里。

And then you reinvested billions in your history of the free cash flow in the coming deck in the coming decade

所以

So

竞争对手，对吧。

competitor right.

就是你刚才说的这个愿景。

Of this vision that you're talking about.

没错。

That's right.

好的。

Okay.

他的观点是，那个已经倒闭的竞争对手，当初的种子轮融了五亿美元。

So and then his point was 500,000,000, that seed round, of this competitor that died.

但从长远来看，这点钱根本不算什么。

It was nothing over the long run.

我觉得他们现在还在做军事模拟。

I think they're still around doing military simulation.

我觉得当时融到五亿美金，是因为风投热潮顶峰，可能是孙正义那会儿吧。

I think, the reason it was 500,000,000, I think that was at the peak of, like, VC, think it was Masa san or whatever.

天哪。

Oh, God.

那时候拿到的就是这种大额支票。

And that's the check you get.

抱歉，不是一亿，是五亿美金。

Sorry, there's no $100,000,000 there's $500,000,000

那你倒是说说，你们怎么这么高效？

So talk about how you were so efficient.

才花一千万美金就做到了盈亏平衡。

Dollars 10,000,000 to get to breakeven.

你们是怎么做到的？

How'd you do that?

我觉得我们一直很擅长产品管理，始终懂得做最小可行的产品，一步步把整个领域走透。

I think we've always been very good at product management of the surface and always been very good at doing the right minimum viable, you know, walk almost through the space.

少做点事，眼光放长远，清楚目标在哪，路上该拿的都拿了。

That do less, take the long view, know where we're going, get a lot of stuff on the way.

我觉得我们在屏蔽干扰这方面挺在行的。

I do think we're pretty good at eliminating distractions.

所以我们现在走的路，应该是对的。

So we're we're kind of going down the right path.

我觉得这事儿我们确实做得不错。

And I think we do that pretty well.

你们都避开或删掉了哪些干扰项？

What are the some of the distractions that you avoided or eliminated?

天哪。

Oh, man.

做平台特别需要底气，因为大家谁都想做内容，那才带劲儿。

Like there's just it's it takes a lot of hubris to build platform because I think everyone it's so fun to build content.

谁都想做游戏啊、搞些复杂的大功能啥的。

Like, we all wanna build games and stuff and big, complicated features.

很多时候，创作者真正需要的功能其实很枯燥，纯粹是性能方面的。

And a lot of times, the features our creators need are boring and purely performance based.

我们公司有个说法：性能本身就是一种增长功能。

And, we we have a saying in the company, like, performance is a is a growth feature.

我们投入了大量精力在基础性能、扩展性这些方面，就是这类东西。

And, you know, we put an enormous amount of work on raw performance features, scale features, those kind of things.

做这些事，得有相当大的胆识。

That takes a lot of hubris.

什么叫基础性能功能？

What's a raw performance feature?

我们会观察，用户在不同设备上点击‘我想玩这个体验’，到真正能互动之间，到底花了多长时间。

We watch how long it takes on a wide range of devices when someone clicks, I want to play that experience, to the time till they're interacting.

我们的目标是做到像视频那样流畅。

And the vision would be video.

现在我们看短视频，早就习惯了刷一下就出来，觉得理所当然。

We've come to assume in video, in short form video, I can just scroll through like we're used to that.

游戏传统上从来都不是这样的。

Gaming has traditionally never had that.

游戏传统上就是你下载一下，或者做点别的什么。

Gaming has traditionally like you download or you do this.

你得在后台搞一堆东西。

You have like this background thing.

人们其实特别喜欢这种感觉，比如给我发条消息什么的。

People love, I text you or something.

咱们来试试这个吧。

Let's go try this.

好了，进去了。

Okay, we're in.

其实大家很喜欢这样，只是自己都没意识到。

People actually like that without maybe knowing it.

所以我们干脆就做了这个决定。

So we just made the decision.

我们想把进入任何《Roblox》游戏的加载时间压缩到几乎为零。

We want to get the time to jump into any Roblox game down to zero, basically.

这在技术上难度很大，但我们相信它对我们长期增长至关重要。

And that's very technically complicated, but we do believe it has long term growth aspects to us.

所以你们现在有了这个引擎，开始赚钱了，而且一直专注打造这个永动系统。

Okay, so you have this engine that is, you're now making money, You are staying focused on just building this perpetual motion machine.

你们没去搞那些乱七八糟的旁支项目。

That's You're not going on these other side quests.

如果我理解得没错，你们只把钱投在提升用户体验上，结果用户增长、收入都跟着上来了，这么早就启动了另一个正向循环。

And if I'm understanding what you're saying correctly, then if you just limit your investment to things that make the user experience better, that will lead to more user growth, more money, more Now you have this other flywheel going on very early.

没错。

That's right.

我就是想搞清楚，你们是怎么做到只烧了1000万美元的？

Trying to figure out, basically the line of my questioning is, how the hell did you only burn $10,000,000

对，我们很快就火了，然后马上就开始变现了。

Yeah, we got viral very quickly, and then we started monetizing very quickly.

然后你们对公司的钱花得特别谨慎。

And then you were just very careful what you used the company money for.

没错。

That's right.

我们确实做了二次融资，后来上市了。

And we did rate we had secondary, we went public.

我们一直保持财务上的克制，说白了，没乱花钱，但每一步都确保手头有足够现金。

There's a certain amount of financial prudence where, I think we didn't spend any money, but we always made sure we had enough cash along the way.

所以如果做二次融资，我们也会留点余地。

And so if we raised a secondary round, we might put some padding in there.

但我们的资金从来没低于最初那1000万美元。

But we actually never dipped below that initial $10,000,000

我听何总和其他人说，你们融资时特别小心。

I heard from Ho and I think other people, you were very careful when raising money.

简直像是得一点点地让他们慢慢下注。

It was almost like they had to slowly commit.

你一直说：不行，不行，不行，不行。

You kept saying, No, no, no, no.

跟一些风投聊的时候，我们确实很自然地就和那些愿意长期支持的风投对上了频道。

With some of the VCs we talked to, we definitely, in that sense, I think we did a really good job intuitively connecting with go long VCs.

我们特别幸运，不管是Altos、Greylock、Index还是别的机构，找来的风投都是敢押上全部的，不是那种‘天啊，这是我第一个项目’的类型。

And we really, we got very fortunate, whether it was Altos or Greylock or Index or others, that in a way we got VCs, I think, who could risk it all, who could not like, Oh my gosh, this is one of my first deals.

那还怎么搞？

Like, what are we going to do?

你知道的，他们真能跟我们一路走到底。

You know, that could really go along with us.

我觉得这特别关键。

And I think that was very helpful.

那为什么这么重要？

So why was it important?

你之前担心的是股权被稀释吗？

What you were just worried about dilution?

你是不是有点控制欲太强？

Like what wasare you a control freak?

有些方面吧，希望是这样，但其他方面，倒也不是。

In some areas, Hopefully, probably, other areas, No.

但你确实高度垂直整合。

But you're pretty vertically integrated.

你就是喜欢事事都自己掌控。

You like to control everything.

你自己建数据中心、渲染系统，连AI创作工具都是自研的。

You build its own data centers, your rendering systems, your AI creation tools.

你靠经营现金流来融资。

You're funded by operating cash flow.

我觉得我生活中有些方面，其实我已经决定放手了。

I think there's areas of my life where hopefully, like, I've decided not to

你说的是工作上的事吧。

You're talking about work.

但对于罗布乐思来说，我们知道我们在打造什么。

But for Roblox, knowing what we're building.

而且我觉得这不只是控制的问题。

And I would say it's not just control.

某种程度上，这是在掌握自己的命运。

I think it's, in a way owning our destiny in a way.

所以我觉得建数据中心是——

So I would say building data centers is

你只有掌控一切，才算真正掌握自己的命运，对吧？

The only way you own your destiny is if you maintain control, right?

没错。

Exactly.

所以数据中心的成本、性能和掌控，确实如此。

So data center cost performance control, yes.

你们在哪些其他业务领域也是这样做的？

What other areas of the business are you like that with?

比如我们的游戏引擎，我们一直觉得需要一个支持多人在线的3D沉浸式引擎，不用样样精通，但每项功能都能做到不错。

Our game engine, for example, we always imagined we need a multiplayer three d immersive engine that does 10% of everything really well.

早期我们就说，你得用这个引擎。

Early on, it's like, you should use that game engine.

你真得用这个引擎。

You should use that game engine.

现在它已经成了我们整个平台的核心部分。

So now that's like a critical core part of our whole platform.

这事儿我们只能自己来搞。

We have to build that ourselves.

我觉得你就是天生喜欢折腾东西。

I think you just like building things.

我们确实喜欢搞这些。

We do like things.

去吧

Go