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好的。
Alright.
我们刚才在录制前聊了聊，你说了个很有意思的观点。
We were just talking before recording, you just said something that was very interesting.
我们在聊那些能称霸几十年的人。
We're talking about people that dominate for decades.
你就是其中之一。
You're one of them that's done so.
你说过，一个有趣的问题是问一个人如何以及为什么能称霸几十年。
And you said an interesting question is to ask how and why somebody would dominate for decades.
你对此有什么看法？
What's your interest to that?
我在印度的搭档说，通往天堂的路有很多条。
My partner in India said there are many roads to heaven.
所以，称霸的方式也有很多种。
And so there are many ways to dominate.
就拿史蒂夫·乔布斯来说吧。
Take Steve Jobs.
他其实就一个工作。
He had really one job.
他在那个领域里称霸了很多年，或者像黄仁勋那样。
And he dominated in that domain for a lot of years or Jensen Huang.
那些是比较线性的。
Those are more linear.
那些是天赋，你发现自己处在风暴中心，只想继续前进，因为随着世界变化，你的工作也在变。
Those are gifts where you find yourself in the middle of the hurricane and you just want to keep on going because as the world changes, your job changes.
更有趣的是，当你不得不一次次重塑自己时，你是怎么做到称霸的？
What's more interesting is how do you dominate when you have to remake yourself over and over again?
还有，你为什么要称霸？
And why do you dominate?
先从为什么说起，我觉得这是一种深层且稳固的需求，想要保持相关性，向自己证明你还没老，也不会过时。
Starting with the why, I think it's a deep and secure need to remain relevant and prove to yourself that you're not getting old and you're not gonna be out of date.
我是说，回顾我的职业生涯，每次我重塑自己，其实并不是出于对伟大的远见。
I mean, if I look back on my career, each time I remade myself, it wasn't really done out of vision of greatness.
而是出于害怕自己会被淘汰。
It was done out of fear of just being gone.
就在几分钟前，我还跟你说，别让这次采访只谈昨天。
Even a few minutes ago, I asked you, let's not make the interview be about yesterday.
让它聚焦在所有的明天。
Let's make it about all tomorrow.
而且，我69岁了，这种恐惧依然存在。
And and I still have that fear at the age of 69.
至于怎么做到，我觉得你必须愿意放下自我。
And the how, I think you have to be willing to let go of your ego.
我觉得每次你都得假设自己一无所知，愿意从零开始。
I think you have to assume you know nothing each time, and you're willing to start at the bottom.
所以当我回到红杉时，他们给了我一个很气派的头衔——董事长。
So when I came back to Sequoia, they gave me this fancy title of chairman.
大概六个月前，我们第一次面对我们的有限合伙人和投资人，有人问起我主席这个头衔。
We were in front of our LPs, our investors, the first time about six months ago, and someone asked me about chairman.
我告诉他，那都是扯淡。
I I told him it's a bunch of bullshit.
我真正的身份其实是一名分析师。
What I really am is an analyst.
我是个初级分析师，我得证明自己。
I'm a low level analyst, and I have to prove myself.
我刚度假回来。
I just got back from vacation.
就在今天早上，我已经经历了九十天的全面适应期。
Just this morning, I've had ninety days of getting all calibrated.
我的合伙人问我，九十天之后感觉怎么样？
And my partners asked me, how do you feel after ninety days?
我说，我觉得自己一无是处。
I said, I feel like I'm good for nothing.
我觉得我进入这个领域后，AI离我反而更远了，比我九十天前刚开始时还要远。
I feel like I've entered, and AI has gotten further away from me than when I first started ninety days ago.
所以我非常害怕。
And so I'm terrified.
就在一个小时前，我跟一个合伙人说，如果九个月后，也就是我回来满一年的时候，我还是觉得自己毫无价值，我就退出。
I told one of my partners just an hour ago that if nine months from now, which is the one year since I return, I feel just as irrelevant, I'm gonna take myself out.
所以我不知道我还能不能再承受一次。
And so I don't know if I can do it yet another time.
而这正是乐趣所在，也正是你问题的答案。
And therein lies the fun and therein lies the answer to your question.
你知道吉米·艾欧文是谁吗？
Do you know who Jimmy Iovin is?
不知道。
No.
好的。
Okay.
吉米·艾欧文，他，另一个统治了几十年的人。
Jimmy Iovine, he, another guy dominated for decades.
他在音乐行业待了五十年。
He was in the music industry for fifty years.
但很多人认识他，是因为他有先见之明，开始和旗下的艺人一起创业。
But a lot of people know him because he's had the insight to start building businesses with his artists.
他和Dr. Dre共同创立了Beats。
He co founded Beats with Doctor.
Dre。
Dre.
他们最终做了Beats音乐和耳机，然后卖给了苹果。
They wind up doing Beats music and headphones, and they sell it to Apple.
我觉得他就是那个在最后阶段和披头士合作的人。
I think he's the guy that was involved with the Beatles at the very end.
约翰·列侬。
John Lennon.
对。
Yeah.
约翰·列侬。
John Lennon.
他是约翰·列侬的工程师和制作人。
He was an engineer and a producer for John Lennon.
一个周六出现的，然后转眼间就成了。
Showed up on a Saturday, and next thing you know, yes.
你很喜欢他。
You love him.
他是个纽约来的意大利人，真他妈的。
He's fucking Italian from New York.
我知道他是谁。
I know who he is.
我忘了他叫什么名字了。
I forgot his name.
他太棒了。
He's awesome.
我和他一起录过一期节目，但现在我们成了朋友。
I did an episode with him, but now we've become friends.
我们经常聊天。
We talk all the time.
他是个非常糟糕的角色。
He's a very shit character.
但有两件事，你刚才说的，他也说过同样的话。
But there's two things that where you were talking that he said the same thing.
他说，别老往后看。
He's like, don't have a rearview mirror.
我们坐下来的时候他也说了同样的话。
He said the same thing when we sat down.
他说，我不想谈过去那些破事。
He's like, I don't wanna fucking talk about past.
我想聊聊我现在在做什么。
I wanna talk about what I'm doing now.
他说，我家里没有奖杯陈列室。
He's like, there's no trophy room in my house.
我甚至都记不清五年前做过什么，因为我都忘了。
I can't even tell you what I did five years ago because I forgot.
我担心的是明天。
I'm worried about tomorrow.
那真的很有意思。
That was very interesting.
但接着我的问题是，你之前提到过恐惧，然后在那之前你也说了害怕。
But then my question, you brought up being terrified and then you said fear before that.
你和恐惧之间的关系是怎样的？
What's your relationship like to fear?
因为他给了我一些最好的建议。
Because he gave me some of the best advice.
他说，大多数人感到恐惧时，会让它变成逆风。
He's like, most people, when they feel fear, they let it be a headwind.
他说，我训练自己把它变成顺风。
He's like, I train myself to make it a tailwind.
我一感觉到恐惧，就意味着我必须立刻向前冲。
As soon as I feel it, that means I have to fucking go forward right now.
立刻。
Right now.
别想，直接迈步向前。
Do not think, step forward.
对。
Yeah.
你和恐惧的关系是怎样的？
What's your relationship with fear?
你是怎么应对它的？
How do you deal with it?
我这辈子，经历过很多恐惧。
Throughout my life, I felt an awful lots of fear.
而恐惧一直是我面前的挑战。
And it's always been the challenge in front of me.
我以前害怕公开演讲。
I was afraid of public speaking.
所以我努力让自己做到最好。
I made sure I became the very best.
我恐高。
I was afraid of heights.
所以我去帆船上工作。
I worked on sailboats.
我确保自己爬上96英尺高的桅杆。
I made sure I was up 96 foot masts.
每当我感到恐惧，我都会直面它。
That whenever I feel it, I face it head on.
这几乎算是一种挑战。
It's almost a challenge.
听着，我的搭档们都知道一个故事。
Look, there's a story that my partners know.
我之前不得不拔一颗牙。
I had to get a tooth removed.
实际上，我为了根管治疗，真的钻了牙。
I actually drilled tooth drilled for a for a root canal.
而且我之后马上要去开会，所以我跟牙医说，不用打麻药直接钻。
And I had to go to a meeting right after that, and I told the dentist, drill without any Novocaine.
他说，你疯了吧。
And he says, you're out of your mind.
我这辈子一直想看看自己到底是不是个硬汉。
And my whole life, I wanted to see if I was a badass or not.
换句话说，我到底是个装出来的硬汉，别人看不出来，还是我内心真的是个硬汉？
In other words, am I a fake badass that has this envelope nobody could tell, or am I really a badass on the inside?
我跟牙医说，不用打麻药，直接拔。
And I told the dentist, Take it out with no Novocaine.
他钻的时候，我跳了一下。
And he drilled and I jumped.
我跟牙医说，我这次不会再动了。
And I told the dentist, I won't move again.
然后我真的就没再动。
And I didn't move again.
我用了那个方法，想象上战场失去一条胳膊或两条腿是什么感觉。
And I used the trick of thinking what it must be like to go to war and lose an arm or two legs.
那种痛是有后果的。
That's pain with consequences.
而我的痛没有后果。
Mine was pain with no consequences.
所以我就告诉自己，那只是从那里到脊椎再到大脑的神经末梢而已。
And so I just said, it's just nerve endings from there to my spine, to my brain.
管他呢。
Fuck it.
我就是不动。
I'm not moving.
后来我回家得换件衬衫，因为我浑身是汗，像泡在水里一样。
Now, I had to go home and change my shirt cause I was a puddle of sweat.
但我确实没动。
But I didn't move.
所以我喜欢恐惧。
And so I love fear.
它对我有奇效。
It does wonders for me.
它给我挑战去克服，然后给我一种安全感。
It gives me the challenge to overcome that gives me then a sense of security.
你提到过在帆船上工作。
You mentioned working on sailboats.
我读到过一些关于你的事。
I read something about you.
你小时候就开始做这个了，对吧？
You were doing this when you were a young kid, right?
我们那时候还在上高中。
We were in high school.
我们开始修船。
We started working on boats.
对。
Yeah.
高中和大学的时候。
High school and college.
而且那地方就在乡村俱乐部的街对面，或者河对面。
And it was across the street from or across the river from a country club.
不，就在乡村俱乐部里面。
No, it was in a country club.
乡村俱乐部里，游艇停在水里，旁边还有游泳池。
A country club has the yachts in the water and the pool on the side.
你还记得你当时说过什么吗？
Do you remember what you said about this?
记得。
Yeah.
我当然记得我说了什么。
I know exactly what I said.
那你能再说一遍吗？
Well, can you repeat it?
我说过，我以后要收拾那些混蛋。
I said I'm gonna get those fuckers later.
你知道的，那都是些有钱人。
You know, it was all the rich
孩子，那是什么意思？
kids What does that mean?
嗯，都是那些有钱人家的孩子，你知道的，当救生员，十六七岁就在泳池边跟女孩们聊天，过得可开心了，过着我现在有些孩子过的生活。
Well, it was all the rich kids, you know, being the lifeguards, talking to all the girls at the age of 16, 17, by the pool, having the times of their lives, kind of having the life that some of my kids have now.
而我却在帆船里爬来爬去，拉电线，汗流浃背，加班加点，只能看着同龄人过得那么开心。
And I was crawling in sailboats running wires through sweating like a pig working overtime and just looking over at kids my age having the times of their life.
我当时就说，你们这些混蛋，我早晚要收拾你们。
And I said, I'm gonna get you all fuckers later.
然后我做到了。
And I did.
这真的是创业史上反复出现的主题。
That is such a re like, a reoccurring theme throughout the history of entrepreneurship.
我也有同感。
I felt it that way.
就像我家里的人会说，哦，我是第一个上大学的。
Like, my people are like, oh, I'm the first person to go to college.
我家甚至都没人高中毕业。
Like, no one in my family even graduated fucking high school.
对。
Yeah.
我记得上公立学校的时候，有个孩子开车上学。
And I remember going to public school and there was this kid that would drive.
他开的车大概值13万，那是二十年前的事了。
He had like a 130,000 cars, like twenty years ago.
他跟我一个班。
And he was in one of my classes.
他爸开了好多家达美乐加盟店，我当时完全不知道那生意有多赚钱。
And his dad owned like a shit ton of Domino's franchises, which I had no idea were phenomenal businesses.
后来我才明白那生意有多好，他说，是啊，我爸带我去吃午饭。
The insight that he had phenomenal businesses, he's like, yeah, me and my dad just went to lunch.
他坐直升机飞了两百英里去吃午饭。
He took a helicopter, like 200 miles to lunch.
我当时想，你在说什么？我15岁就全职打工了。
I was like, what are you I'm working full time at 15.
你在说什么？
What are talking about?
我也有同样的感觉。
And that's exactly how I felt.
我在做另一个播客，是关于创始人的，我开始读很多关于迈克·泰森的内容。
I'm working on this this other from my other podcast founders, I'm starting to read about Mike Tyson a lot.
迈克·泰森有一个视频，他谈到了他成长的方式和他孩子们的成长方式之间的差异。
And Mike Tyson has a video where he talks about the difference where you just mentioned the way he grew up compared to the way his kids.
他说他的孩子们大概15岁。
And he says his kids would be like, they're like 15 years old.
他们会说，看，学校里的那个明星运动员。
And they're like, look at the the the star athlete at school.
就像，哇。
It's like, wow.
看看特雷西。
Look at Tracy.
他太厉害了。
He's so amazing.
然后他说，我以前不是那样的。
And he goes, I wasn't like that.
他说，我看到这些人的时候，心里想的是，等着瞧吧，等我出手。
He goes, what I thought when I saw these people, wait till I give them my shot.
等我抓住机会。
Wait till I get my chance.
等我上场的时候，我会让你们看看什么叫真正的实力。
I will show you when I come around what that actually means.
不过关键是要把这种心态当作动力，但以后别变成个混蛋。
Now what the trick is though, is to use that as a motivator, but not be an asshole when you're later in life.
不要把你受过的苦再施加给别人。
Don't do unto others as it was done into you.
那么，怎么把这种极其负面的经历变成正面的，然后随着你成熟，用积极的方式去影响自己和你周围的人，这是第一点。
So how do you take this this incredibly negative experience, make it a positive experience, and then as you mature, use it in a positive way for the benefit of not only for yourself, but everybody else around you, point one.
第二点。在你说第二点之前，你是怎么做到的？
Point two Before you get to point two, how have you done that?
我想报复他们的那种念头，大概到我五十岁左右才慢慢消失。
My need to get them back, them, kind of ended by the time I got 50 or so on.
你是说五十岁？
Mean 50?
对。
Yeah.
嗯，是的。
Well, yeah.
听起来好像很久，但其实也不算长。
It seems like a long time, but it's not.
花了整整三十年。
It took a good thirty years.
花了整整三十年才克服这个弱点，因为从某些方面来说，这确实是个弱点，因为它是一种错误的叙事。
It took a good thirty years to overcome that weakness, because in some ways, it is a weakness, because it's a false narrative.
那些孩子不是坏孩子，我不想活在一个虚假的故事里。
Those were not bad kids, and I don't wanna live in a false narrative.
我终于摆脱了那种想法。
I finally outgrew it.
但另一点，对我来说更重要，就是你如何对待你的孩子。
But the other point, which is more important, for me anyway, is what you do with your kids.
给孩子那样的生活水平不一定好，因为他们会缺少那种动力，就像迈克·泰森、你、我，或者我们认识的很多人那样，而这并不是最好的事情。
To give your kids that level of life is not necessarily a good thing because what they're going to be missing is the drive that Mike Tyson or you or I or many people that we know had, and that's not the best thing ever.
我觉得你得在孩子的成长中注入一些苦难，让他们有那种渴望。
I think you have to inject some misery in your kids' lives so they have that hunger.
这可以是假的，因为他们知道，但你不能给他们一切，否则他们就不会有渴望。
It can be fake because they know it, but you can't give them everything because otherwise they won't be hungry.
你知道有多少在富裕环境中长大的人有那种动力吗？
How many people that grew up wealthy have that drive that you know?
很多在富裕环境中长大的孩子确实有动力。
A good amount of kids that grew up wealthy have drive.
动力可以由很多事情引起。
Drive can be caused by many things.
我们有个合伙人，他肯定从小家境不错，他的动力来自于和他双胞胎兄弟的竞争。
We have a partner who I'm sure grew up with means that his drive came from competition with his twin brother.
他们俩上了同一所大学。
They were they both attended the same college.
他们都是外接手，分别在球场两侧。
They both were wide receivers on opposite side of the fields.
他们彼此很要好，但最喜欢的就是互相打得你死我活。
They adore one another, and they love nothing more than beating the shit out of one another.
所以动力来源多种多样。
So drive comes in many ways.
我有个女婿，他非常有干劲，他有个哥哥，我敢肯定他们小时候经常打架。
I have a son-in-law who is driven like crazy, older brother, I'm sure they fought.
他受不了奶酪，因为他哥哥特别爱吃奶酪。
He cannot stand cheese because his older brother loves eating cheese.
我是说，这些小事真的能说明问题。
I mean, it shows you it shows you these little things.
你知道，我们在红杉资本开过一次会，会上有个环节是分享感受，我的一个合伙人建议每个人说说，生活中哪个片段塑造了现在的你。
You know, we had a session at Sequoia where we checked in, and one of my partners suggested for the check-in to say, What is the vignette in life that made you who you are?
然后有个合伙人说了，他说的时候哭了，我们很多人也都哭了。
And one partner said, and he cried when he said that, A lot of us cried.
他十一二岁的时候坐公交车，一个他觉得挺可爱的女孩看了他一眼，说，小子，你真胖。
He got on a bus when he was 11 or 12, and a girl that he thought was cute looked at him and said, boy, you're fat.
对你我来说，这听起来是件小事。
Now, to you and I, that sounds like a minor thing.
但对他来说，这改变了他的一生。
To him, it changed his life.
四十年后，三十年后，他仍然每天凌晨四点起来锻炼。
Forty years later, thirty years later, he still wakes up for 04:00 to work out.
我是说，这些故事有时候听起来挺离谱的。
I mean, the stories were, in some ways, ridiculous.
但另一方面，看到一个小孩子受到的影响，以及那个片段如何伴随一个人走过一生，真的非常令人惊叹。
But in some ways, it's really amazing to see how a little kid is affected and how long that vignette carries someone through life.
你的片段是什么？
What was your vignette?
是海滩俱乐部。
It was the beach club.
是高中时因为不会说英语而被嘲笑。
It was the being ridiculed in high school because I couldn't speak English.
是在教室里被取笑。
It was being made fun of in a classroom.
是高中时被人叫‘意大利面’。
It was being called pasta in high school.
所有这些事，你知道，因为我是移民。
All the things that, you know, because I was an immigrant.
所有这些事，当你不够坚强时，你生存下来，你忍受，然后你努力克服，同时保持做一个好人。
All the things that when you're not strong enough, you survive, you endure, and then you try to overcome, and doing it while remaining a good human being.
我想跟你介绍一下这期播客的赞助商，Ramp。
I wanna tell you about the presenting sponsor of this podcast, Ramp.
我最近读了很多关于SpaceX的文章。
I have been reading a lot about SpaceX lately.
SpaceX是全球最有价值的企业之一，而它历史上的一个核心主题就是不断审视和质疑自己的成本。
SpaceX is one of the most valuable businesses in the world and one of the main themes in the history of SpaceX is constantly attacking and questioning your cost.
Ramp帮助全球许多最具创新力的企业做到这一点。
Ramp helps many of the most innovative businesses in the world do exactly that.
使用Ramp的公司，中位数能削减5%的开支。
The median company running on Ramp cuts their expenses by 5%.
SpaceX还证明了，对控制成本近乎执着的专注，实际上能帮助增加收入，因为你可以去追求那些原本无法尝试的机会。
And one thing SpaceX has demonstrated is that a religious dedication to controlling costs can help actually increase revenue because you can pursue opportunities you couldn't otherwise.
我们在Ramp的数据里也看到了同样的现象。
And we see that in the ramp data too.
使用Ramp的公司，中位数收入也能增长16%。
The median company running on Ramp also grows their revenue by 16%.
所以，当你在Ramp上运营你的业务，而你的竞争对手没有时，你就拥有了一个巨大的竞争优势，而且这个优势会随着时间不断累积。
So when you're running your business on Ramp and your competitors are not, you have a massive competitive advantage that compounds over time.
Ramp是唯一一个旨在让你的财务团队更高效、更快乐的平台。
Ramp is the only platform designed to make your finance team faster and happier.
我认识的许多顶尖创始人和CEO都在Ramp上运营他们的业务。
Many of the top founders and CEOs I know run their business on Ramp.
我自己也在Ramp上运营业务，你也应该这样做。
I run my business on Ramp and you should too.
去ramp.com了解一下他们如何帮助你的企业节省时间、节省资金并增加收入。
Go to ramp.com to learn how they can help your business save time, save money, and grow revenue.
那就是ramp.com。
That is ramp.com.
你提到了诱导，也就是在你的孩子生活中引入痛苦的重要性。
You mentioned inducing, the importance of inducing misery into your kids' lives.
你还在对你自己的孩子这样做吗？
Do you still induce misery into your own?
对。
Yeah.
不。
No.
我已经走了一个完整的循环，用物质的东西宠坏了自己，发现它们根本不能让我快乐，然后扔掉了一大堆物质的东西，我以很大的折扣卖掉了我的豪车，我只想让它们消失。
I've gone full cycle and have spoiled myself with material things, realized they don't make me happy at all, got rid of a whole bunch of material things, I sold my fancy cars at great discount, I just want them gone.
有一天我醒来，就是不想再要名字结尾带元音字母的车了。
It was one day I woke up, I just didn't wanna have cars with vowels and at the end of the name.
我就把它们都处理掉了。
I just got rid of them.
我只是想要更简单的生活。
I just wanted a more simple life.
我想开始享受生活中的小确幸。
I wanted to to start to enjoy the little things in life.
话虽如此，我还是有一些玩具的。
Now, having said that, do have toys.
我不想让人觉得我过着和尚一样的生活，但我确实是有意卖掉一些资产，就是为了让生活更简单。
I don't wanna make sound like I'm leaving the life I'm leading the life of a monk, but I've shedded assets on purpose just to simplify my life.
而且如果你去关注生活中真正重要的东西，归根结底就是家人和朋友。
And if you will get down to the really important things in life, which are really at the end of the day is your family and friends.
那才是最重要的。
That's really the most important thing.
不只是舍弃物质，而是在你人生的这个阶段，给自己带来痛苦或折磨。
Not just shedding material, like, inducing pain or misery into your life at this time, at this point in your life.
我觉得回到工作岗位上，绝对不是我做过的最轻松的决定。
I think going back to work, definitely that was not the easiest move I've ever done.
而且我现在正处在这个过程当中。
And I'm in the middle of that right now.
我现在在红杉资本挺痛苦的，不是因为别人做了什么，而是因为我觉得三个月过去了，我好像什么都做不好。
I'm quite miserable at Sequoia right now, not because of what anybody else does, because I feel that three months into it, I'm really good for nothing.
比如说，你在创业的时候，对吧？
Let's say when you were building, right?
你在那儿的头几十年。
Your first few decades there.
工作一直让你觉得是工作吗？
Did work always feel like work?
还是说就像你上瘾了一样，痴迷于做这件事？
Or is it something like you just like you were addicted to doing it, you were obsessed with doing it?
不是。
No.
那感觉像是一个巨大的挑战，我不知道怎么去征服它，而且这种感觉一直持续到我65岁停止工作那天。
It felt like an overwhelming challenge that I didn't know how to conquer, and I felt that until the day I stopped working at 65.
你得跟杰米·艾欧文聊聊，哥们儿。
You've to spend time with Jamie Iovine, dude.
我跟你说，我觉得你会喜欢他的。
I'm telling you, I think you would love him.
他接触过一些历史上最伟大、最有才华的人。
He's been around some of the greatest, you know, people or the most talented people in history.
你知道的，他曾经和约翰·列侬、布鲁斯·斯普林斯汀一起工作过，医生。
You know, worked with John Lennon and Bruce Springsteen, Doctor.
还有Dr. Dre、埃米纳姆，简直就像一群疯子一样。
Dre, Eminem, just like crazy people.
他说，每个伟大的人都有自己性格上的扭曲或怪癖。
And he's like, everybody great has a bend in the pipe.
他们身上总有些特别的地方，正是这些让他们与众不同。
There's just something wrong with them that just makes them different.
而且，他们的天才一面往往也是他们的问题所在。
Also, like, the same side of their genius is also their dysfunction.
对。
Yeah.
他自己也是这样，对他来说也是一回事。
And his whole he and he's like, for himself, it's the same thing.
他觉得这对他来说从来都不好玩。
He's like, he's like, it was ever fun to me.
工作对我来说总是像工作一样。
It was work always felt like work.
然后他说，我的管道弯折就在于必须如此。
And he goes, my bend in the pipe was that it has to be.
他的意思是，我接下这个生意，接下这个项目，如果我告诉你我要做某件事，我会做到几乎把自己累死才肯放弃。
And what he meant by that is like, I'm taking on this business, I'm taking on this project, if I'm telling you I'm going to do something, I will do it to the point where I almost kill myself before I give up.
必须成功，这和你给我的感觉非常相似。
Have to succeed Very at similar to the vibe I'm getting off of you.
对。
Yeah.
听着，失败在我的人生中从来都不是一个选项。
Look, failure was never an option in my life.
我没有备选计划。
I had no plan b.
我记得当我成为红杉资本的合伙人时，我身无分文。
I remember when I was made a partner at Sequoia, I was down to zero money.
其实我从来没跟任何人说过这事，但在我成为合伙人的第一个月，有一段时间我无家可归。
I actually I have never said that to anybody, but there was a time in my first month where I became a partner that I was homeless.
我在车里睡了一个星期。
I slept in my car for a week.
我在沙丘路3000号洗澡。
I showered at 3000 Sand Hill Road.
我当时一分钱都没有了。
I was down to no money.
我真的是身无分文。
I was down to zero, zero money.
那时候红杉在你成为合伙人时会给你买辆车。
Sequoia back then would buy you a car when you made partner.
我买了辆车。
I bought a car.
但我没有家。
I didn't have a home.
我在车里睡了一个星期，后来有了点钱，就开始租房子住了。
I slept in my car for a week, and then and then I had some money, I started getting a rental and so on.
你当时是遇到什么情况
What was on in your
导致你无家可归的？
life that you were homeless?
我30岁那年经历了一场离婚，我把一切都给了前妻。
I went through a divorce when I was 30 years of age, and I gave my ex wife everything.
我当时就靠每月400美元的汽车补贴生活。
And I was living on my car allowance of $400 a month.
所以有一个月我都没有家。
So I didn't have a home for a month.
所以大概一个星期左右，我睡在车里，后来有个同事让我跟他住了大约三个星期。
And so for a week or so, I slept in my car, and then one of the other associates let me live with him for about three weeks.
然后我攒够了钱，就去租了一套公寓。
And then I had enough money to go buy to go rent to rent an apartment.
所以那一个星期我都在笑自己，既是红杉的合伙人，却无家可归。
So I chuckled for a week that I was a partner at Sequoia and I was homeless.
我是红杉历史上唯一一个无家可归的合伙人。
I was the only homeless partner Sequoia has ever had.
我觉得我从来没在公开场合讲过这件事。
I don't think I've ever told that in a public setting.
我是说，到了这个地步，你已经跌到谷底了。
I mean, at this point, you can't go any lower than you already are.
哦，不，还能更糟。
Oh, no, you can go a lot lower.
首先，我当时身体健康。
First of all, I was healthy.
所以情况还能更差。
So you can get a lot lower than that.
你可能会生病，得个什么病。
You can be sick with a disease.
说得对。
Good point.
而且第二，我是红杉资本的合伙人。
And second, I was a partner at Sequoia.
你在开玩笑吗？
Are you kidding me?
我的现值，我未来的收入都会非常好。
My present value, my future earnings are going to be terrific.
所以我当时很恐慌。
So I was in panic.
但我知道那只是暂时的麻烦。
I just knew it it was only an inconvenience.
我大概笑了整整一个星期。
And I saw the humor in that for about a week.
我是说，显然，如果一辈子无家可归，那就不好笑了。
I mean, clearly, it would not have been funny to be homeless for a lifetime.
如果你真的无家可归，那是另一回事。但我的情况不是这样，我是红杉资本的合伙人，在斯坦利路3000号的淋浴间洗澡，把车停在离办公室稍远一点的地方，然后睡在车里。
And if you're truly homeless, that's But not in my case, it was I was a partner at Sequoia showering at the sun at the shower in 3000 Stanley Road, parking my car a little bit further away from the office and sleeping in my car.
所以回到你说的，你刚才提到的你现在感受到的那种不适程度。
So go back to you're saying that the the level of discomfort that you felt when you came right now that you're that you're currently experiencing.
你当初为什么要退休？
Why did you retire to begin with?
然后你为什么……嗯，
And then why did you Well,
我没有退休。
didn't retire.
如果你创办了一家公司，你就有长期席位。
If you found a company, you have season seats.
你想待多久就待多久。
You can stay as long as you want.
你可以让它上市。
You can take it public.
你可以把它卖掉。
You can sell it.
这是你自己的事业。
It's your gig.
红杉不是我创立的。
I didn't found Sequoia.
我只是被雇来的。
I I was a hired gun.
所以我觉得正确的做法是让位，让下一代有机会上场。
So it seemed to me the right thing to do is to get out of the way and let the next generation have their turns at bat.
唐·瓦伦丁，是他创立的。
Don Valentine, he founded it.
他大约在63岁时退了下来。
He stepped away at around the age of 63.
我觉得65岁是个自然的年纪。
I figured 65 was the natural age.
在我60岁生日那天，我退了下来。
And on my 60 birthday, I stepped down.
我选了一个接班人。
I I chose a successor.
但你是真的想退下来吗？
Did you want to step down, though?
这不是我想不想的问题。
It wasn't a matter whether I wanted or not.
这是对红杉来说正确的事情。
It was the right thing to do for Sequoia.
所以我选了鲁洛夫。
And so I chose Ruloff.
我是老国王。
I was the old king.
他是新国王。
He was the new king.
在我看来，如果老国王还在，而新国王已经上任，那你就不该继续留在那里。
It seemed to me that being the old king with a new king around, you shouldn't be around.
你应该退下来。
You should be removed.
所以我就离开了。
And so I stepped out.
我当时在十个董事会任职。
I was on 10 boards.
我以为这样能让我忙起来。
And I thought that would keep me busy.
我还创办了一家生物科技公司。
I founded a biotech company.
我以为十个董事会加上一家生物科技公司，我会忙得不可开交。
I thought 10 boards, biotech company, I'm going to be busy as heck.
结果完全不是那么回事。
Not even close.
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因为我有个‘诅咒’，就是我的公司都运转得很好。
Because I had the curse that all my companies were working.
公司运转好的时候，其实没什么事可做。
When a company is working, there is no there's nothing to do.
所以我手头有一大堆公司，但我却闲得慌。
And so I had a great backlog of companies, and I wasn't busy.
于是我开始学打鼓、学吉他、学钢琴，这样大概过了一年。
So I started taking drum lessons and guitar lessons and piano lessons, and that took me for about a year.
一年之后，我觉得自己快要疯了。
And after a year, I thought I was gonna lose my mind.
结果后来鲁洛夫退下来了。
It turned out that Rulof stepped down.
帕特和阿尔弗雷德接手了。
Pat and Alfred took over.
他们并不是我选中的国王。
They weren't the kings I chose.
结果过了三十天，他们来我家说，你愿意回来吗？
And thirty days into it, they came to my house and they said, Would you like to come back?
你不再需要管十家公司了。
You're not on 10 boards anymore.
你现在只需要管六家。
You're on six boards.
我们已经卖掉了四家公司。
We sold four companies.
比如Wizz那几家公司。
There were companies like Wizz and so on.
我说，当然可以。
And I said, sure.
然后我们一个下午就谈妥了一个小协议，就一张纸，我们随便写写就搞定了。
And we cut a little deal in an afternoon and a single sheet of paper that we scrabble
你当时有没有看到
Did you see
我们是不是要来了？
that that we coming?
拼字游戏。
Scrabble.
在那之前的两年里，他们总是公开问我，为什么你不多出现一些？
They always wondered to me publicly for the two years before, why aren't you around more?
我的回答是，我觉得最好还是保持距离，让新国王去做他自己的事。
And my answer was it seemed to me that it's best to stay away and let the new king just do his thing.
当老国王和新国王之间的那种紧张关系消失，因为鲁洛夫走了，对我来说和他们来说都容易多了。
And when the old king, new king dynamic went away because Rulof was gone, it was much easier for me and for them.
所以他们突然来访。
And so they came over, surprise visit.
我不知道他们为什么想见我。
I don't know why they wanted to see me.
我说，当然可以，当场就答应了。
And I said, sure, right on the spot.
那次谈话其实不长。
It wasn't that long a conversation.
所以我才问你有没有预见到，因为你……
That's why I asked if you saw it coming because you
不，当然预见到了。
No, it was, of course.
我们商量好了，我会参加合伙人会议。
And we agreed that I would attend partners meeting.
我会进入核心圈子。
I would be in the inner circle.
我会帮他们识别所谓的“关键时刻”，想办法应对，再投几个项目。
I would help them spot crucible moments, as we say, to figure out how to navigate them and make a couple investments.
除了投几个项目，其他我都做了。
And I've done everything but make a couple investments.
我跟他们说了，头九十天我什么都不想做。
I told them I wanted to do nothing for ninety days.
我想先校准一下。
I want to get calibrated.
结果现在到了第91天，我慌了。
And here I am now, day 91, panicked.
对，但我会，我是说，你显然知道这一点。
Yeah, but I would, I mean, you obviously know this.
就像我们正在经历这场巨大的技术革命，这种技术变革，一个有着几十年经验、见过这么多事情起起落落、这么多不同公司和创始人来来去去的人。
Like we're going through this massive technological revolution, this technological shift, somebody with decades of experience that has seen so many things come and so many different companies and founders come and go.
那真是无价之宝，公司内部有这种智慧是无价的。
That's invaluable, invaluable wisdom to have inside the company.
对，但世界在变，而这次通过AI的变化更加剧烈。
Yeah, except that the world changes and this change more dramatically through AI.
对，但你经历过多少次不同的变化了？
Yeah, but how many different changes have you been through?
我明白，但这是最根本的变化。
I understand, but this is the most radical change.
这是工业革命级别的变化。
This is an industrial revolution kind of change.
所以就像我说的，我已经投入了九十天。
And so as I said, I'm ninety day into it.
我现在感觉比刚开始时更迷茫了。
I feel further away now than when I get into it.
你看，我们正在看一家公司。
I mean, look, we're looking at a company.
我周末度假回来了。
I came back from vacation over the weekend.
我看到了一份备忘录。
I saw a memo.
我不会告诉你这家初创公司的名字，它什么都没有就想以100亿美元的估值融资。
I won't tell you the name of a startup company that wants to raise money without anything at 10,000,000,000 pre.
你知道，这让我头晕目眩。
You know, it gets my head spinning.
我还以为是个玩笑呢。
I didn't know if it was a joke.
我还以为他们的合伙人想开我玩笑。
I didn't know if their partners wanted to do that to make fun of me.
不，因为他们真会那么干。
No, because they would do that.
对。
Yeah.
结果不是玩笑。
And it wasn't a joke.
我从没见过这么快的营收增长。
And so I've never seen revenue growth at this space.
从没见过这样的估值。
I've never seen prices like this.
可以说，你只需要在后面加三个零。
One could say all you have to do is add three zeros.
这是同一类型的生意，但比那要复杂得多。
It's the same type of business, but it's more complicated than that.
所以我见证了很多变化。
And so I've seen a lot of changes.
我有很好的直觉，但我不想太依赖过去。
I have good instincts, but I don't wanna rely too much on on the past.
我想把过去当作一个小角落，用来对照检查。
I wanna use the past as a little corner here that I check things against.
我有自己的经验法则，每次投资时都会问自己三四个问题。
And I have my heuristics, my three or four questions I ask myself with each investments.
我可以聊聊这些，但我更关注未来世界会是什么样子。
I can discuss those, but I'm focused on what the world's going to look like.
我很想知道你问的这些问题和你的经验法则。
I would love to know these questions and these heuristics that you ask.
我持怀疑态度，因为我靠读历史为生，对吧？
I'm very skeptical because I read history for a living, right?
历史上每次你都会听到“这次不一样，这次不一样”，但从来都没变过，对吧？
And every time throughout history you hear this time is different, this time is different, and it's never different, right?
但这次可能真的不一样。
And, but this time actually might be different.
所以我就想，我能找谁来真正回答这个问题呢？
So I was like, well, who could I talk to that could actually answer this question for me?
他们看到的要多得多。
They're seeing a lot more.
所以我就跟迈克尔·戴尔聊了这件事。
And so I was talking to Michael Dell about this.
对。
Yeah.
我问他，我说，这次真的不一样吗？
And I asked him, I like, is this time actually different?
他说，是的。
And he's like, yes.
然后他跟我聊了大概三十分钟，详细解释了他为什么认为商业正在被重新定义，而这次确实不一样。
And then he gave like this, we had like this thirty minute talk where he actually went through why he thinks that actually business is being rewritten and this time is actually different.
你之前提到的那些特征是什么？
What are the characteristics that you were mentioning earlier?
我有两三个这样的特征。
I have two or three of them.
其中一个就是，我会不会把我孩子的钱投进去？
One of them is, would I put my kids' money into it?
第二个，如果我一生只做二十次投资，这次是不是其中之一？
Second, if I only make 20 investments in my life, is this one of the 20?
第三个，这次投资能不能让我把整个基金赚回来？
Third, can I return the whole fund with this investment?
如果这三个条件不满足，我就不会投资。
And if I don't pass those three, I'm not gonna make the investment.
我之所以提到孩子，是因为这能帮我判断质量；提到二十次，是为了提高标准，看它是否真的值得投资，还是说只是可能投资，但算不上真正的本垒打，这其实和第三个条件是一样的。
And the reason I put my kids, it gives me the judgment of quality, the reason for the 20, it raises the bar of it could be investable, but is it really the home run, which is the same thing as the third?
这些问题我一直都在问自己。
And those are questions that I've always asked myself.
你多说一点关于只做20个投资这个限制。
You tell Say more about the the bounding of only having 20.
你一生中大概能做出200个投资。
There's probably 200 investments that you can make in your lifetime.
其中很多投资只能带来两三倍的回报。
And a lot of them are going to return two extra money, three extra money.
我只想要那些能带来100倍回报的投资。
I only want the ones where you can return 100 times your money.
我只对这些感兴趣。
That's all I'm interested in.
我想要的是那些极端的案例。
I want the outliers.
我想要那些真正能带来巨大回报的投资，在我这一生中，先是1亿，然后是5亿，接着是10亿，再是50亿，然后Alfred做到了100亿，现在Sean做到了200亿。
I want the ones that really drive tremendous return that in my lifetime were first, it was a 100,000,000, then 500, then a billion, then 5,000,000,000, then Alfred hit 10,000,000,000, and now Sean hit 20,000,000,000.
我跟肖恩说，你这家伙，你简直把我的好事给搅了。
I I told Sean, you fucker, you kind of ruined it for me.
我现在都不好意思拿那40亿美元的收益出来说了。
I'm not gonna show up now with a $4,000,000,000 gain.
那是SpaceX吗？
Was that SpaceX?
那是什么？
What was that?
对。
Yeah.
是SpaceX。
It's SpaceX.
虽然我们还没套现什么的，但你知道，有机会赚到200亿美元甚至更多。
Now, we haven't cashed out yet or whatever, but, you know, there's a shot of a of a $20,000,000,000 gain or more.
所以他把所有人的好事都给搅了。
And so he ruined it for all
我们所有人。
of us.
那些表现最好的投资，我总好奇你当时是不是真的能看出来。
The ones that your best performing investments, I'm always curious if you can actually see it back then.
它们总是会在上涨时给你惊喜。
They always surprise you on the upside.
对吧？
Right?
总是这样。
Always.
它们失败时你从不意外，因为那总是你考虑过的情景之一，或者说大部分时候是这样。
They never surprise you when they fail because that was always one of the scenarios you had you had thought about or mostly is.
但当它们涨起来的时候，就会让你惊喜，而且每个风险投资人都会犯过早卖掉赢家的错误。
But when they run, they surprise you, and every venture investor has made the mistake of selling too early their winners.
每一个风险投资人都是如此。
Every single venture investors.
因为你看那些伟大的公司，它们在IPO之后还复利增长了二十年。
Because if you look at the great companies, they've compounded twenty years after the IPO.
比如英伟达、谷歌或者Meta。
NVIDIA or Google or Meta.
如果你能嗅到这家公司未来很多年市场几乎无限，你就一股都不该卖。
If you add a little sniffer that this thing had essentially an unbounded market for many years, you should never sell a share.
持有这些股票能赚更多的钱，因为如果你把50亿美元的收益复利增长，那可能变成500亿美元。
And you can make way more money holding those because if you're compounding a $5,000,000,000 gain, that can turn into a $50,000,000,000 gain.
如果我们一直持有谷歌或者英伟达，没有卖掉的话，那现在值5000亿美元。
If we held Google and had sold Google, that'd be worth or NVIDIA, that'd be $500,000,000,000.
没有任何投资能给你这样的回报。
And there's no investments that can give you that.
我们持有英伟达20%的股份。
We own 20% of NVIDIA.
想想看。
Think about that.
我是说，我们持有谷歌10%的股份。
I mean, we own 10% of Google.
还有很多其他的公司。
And there's many others.
苹果，你在开玩笑吗？
Apple, are you kidding me?
我们是苹果的第一个投资者。
We were the first investor in Apple.
思科，我们持有思科系统四分之一的股份。
Cisco, we own a quarter of Cisco systems.
这些都是大公司里的大持股。
Those are big ownership in very big companies.
但我们都犯过那个错误。
But we all made that mistake.
对。
Yeah.
有时候，最好的财务决策根本不是财务上的。
Sometimes the best financial decisions are not financial at all.
所以你看，比如想想山姆·沃尔顿创造的财富，他显然在财富积累到孩子之前就捐出去了，但你知道，如果它还在一个人手里，那会值5000亿，或者现在是多少来着。
So if you look at, like if you think about the wealth created by Sam Walton, he obviously, he gave it away before it accumulates to his kids, but it come, you know, it was still in one person, it'd be worth, you know, 500,000,000,000, whatever the number is now.
你会发现他做的并不是财务决策。
And you realize that he wasn't making a financial decision.
他只是喜欢沃尔玛。
He just liked Walmart.
这又回到了尼克·斯利普说过的话。
This goes back to what Nick Sleep said.
尼克·斯利普有句名言，他说，最好的投资者根本不是投资者。
Nick Sleep has this great quote where he's like, the best investors aren't investors at all.
他们是从未卖出的企业家。
They're entrepreneurs who never sold.
对，没错。
Yeah, exactly.
完全正确。
That's exactly right.
你提过好几次了。
You've mentioned a few times.
我在别的地方也听你说过，比如你说，嘿，我在网络安全公司的董事会里。
I've heard you in other places where you're like, hey, I'm on boards of cybersecurity companies.
我对网络安全一窍不通。
I don't know anything about cybersecurity.
我在金融服务公司董事会任职。
I'm on board a financial services company.
我对金融服务也一窍不通。
I don't know anything about financial services.
那是什么意思呢？
What does that mean?
意思是我感兴趣的是公司的业务和如何经营这家公司，而不是去塑造公司的技术，也就是说，我不是那种产品经理型的人。
It means that I'm interested in the business and the building the business of a company, not in shaping the technology of a company, meaning that I'm not a product manager type.
这就是创始人懂的东西。
That's what founders know.
有时候，他们唯一懂的就是这个。
In some cases, that's the only thing they know.
而且他们越来越年轻。
The only thing they're they're getting younger and younger.
他们才23岁或者22岁。
They're they're they're 23 years old or 22.
他们是工程师，懂那个领域。
They're engineers, and they know that domain.
如果他们得靠我来帮忙塑造产品，哪怕只是10%或20%，那我们就麻烦大了。
If they have to rely on me to help shape the product 10%, 20%, we're in big trouble.
对吧？
Okay?
但接下来你还有业务这块。
But then you have the business.
你卖的是股份，不是产品。
You have the selling of shares, not the selling of product.
卖股份的时候，你得把所有东西都打包进去，包括市场分析，还有产品最后那10%的打磨，让它变得好卖，这部分我能帮上忙。
And in the selling of shares, you have to wrap everything into it, which is the analysis of market, the product marketing of the final 10% of the product so it's saleable, I can help with that.
产品营销和宣传，需求生成，线索生成，还有收入。
The product marketing and messaging, the demand gen, the lead gen, and the revenues.
然后还有支持和记账这些。
And then you've got support and counting and so on.
很多时候，公司会在这些环节出问题，或者做得不够好。
Oftentimes, companies break or they sub optimize that.
他们就是在这些地方介入的。
That's where they get involved in.
要做到这些，我不需要成为技术专家。
And in order to do that, I don't have to be an expert in the technology.
其实，我对技术只是部分感兴趣。
In fact, I'm only partially interested in technology.
我更感兴趣的是帮助创始人建立企业。
I'm much more interested in helping founders build a business.
多说一点。
Say more about that.
那么，你怎么把一个22岁的年轻人，当他来找我们时，他在生活的某个方面是个异类，可能智商在150以上。
So how do you take a 22 year old that when he comes to us is an outlier in something in life, probably IQ 150 or above.
风投人士用来形容负面特质的那些词，我都用来形容正面特质，比如不敬、混蛋、不听劝。
All the adjectives that venture guys use in the negative sense, I use in a positive sense, irreverent, shithead, they don't listen.
我喜欢。
Love it.
这样的创始人，我随时欢迎。
Give me those founders all day long.
但你得再多说一点。
But you gotta say more about that.
你为什么喜欢
Why do you like
哦，因为谁会想要一个创始人，他或她的想法会随着最后跟谁说话而改变呢？
Oh, because who wants a founder that changes his or her mind depending on who they last spoke to?
我想要一个创始人，在过去的五个月里，他入睡后三个小时就醒来，一直在思考问题，思考解决方案，对自己想构建的东西非常清晰。
I want a founder who for the last five months has gone to sleep and has woken up three hours into his sleep, just thinking about the problem, thinking about a solution, crystal clear on what they want to build.
没有人能动摇他们，他们非常执着，等等。
No one can detract them, driven like crazy, and so on.
这就是我想要的。
That's what I want.
但现在我们必须建立一个企业。
But now we've got to build a business.
那么，你如何招募前10名工程师呢？
And so who do you recruit as the first 10 engineers?
你的第一个销售人员应该是什么样的人？
What does your first salesperson look like?
你想要那些有潜力、正在上升的人吗？
Do you want people that are up and comers?
那些已经功成名就的人是不会加入你这种初创公司的。
No one that's establishing great is going to join you as a startup.
这意味着你得有一双慧眼，去发现销售和营销领域那些有潜力的新人，因为那些已经成名的人会更倾向于求稳。
That means you have to have an eye for these up and comer people in sales and marketing because the made people are going to play that a little safer.
所以，要应对这一系列的问题，这正是我们红杉资本最擅长的，我觉得我们是全球最棒的。
And so to help navigate all those sets of issues, that is what we at Sequoia, I think, the very best in the world at.
你能举几个你合作过的创始人的例子吗？你觉得你和他们合作得最好，你帮助他们塑造、发展并一起打造了他们的业务。
Can you give me some examples of the founders that you partnered with that you feel you had the best partnership with that responded to this, that you helped mold and shape and build their business with them?
比如Nubank的戴维·贝莱斯。
With David Vlez of Nubank.
我选他作为例子，是因为他曾经是红杉资本的合伙人，我对他很了解。
And the reason I choose him for this example is that he was an associate at Sequoia, so I knew him well.
我是从斯坦福商学院把他招进来的。
I hired him out of Stanford Business School.
当时我不得不告诉他一个坏消息，就是我们不打算在巴西开设办公室。
And I had to give him the bad news that we were not going to open a Brazil office.
他搬到巴西之后，承诺留在红杉，我们做了两笔投资，最后发现巴西没什么工程师，只有少数几个，而且从巴西出来的项目都是‘我们是巴西的优步’这种。
After he moved to Brazil, he committed to Sequoia, he moved to Brazil, we made two investments, and we finally figured out there are no engineers, a few engineers come out of Brazil, and everything coming out of Brazil was, we are the Uber of Brazil.
‘我们是巴西的DoorDash。’
We are the DoorDash of Brazil.
没什么真正的创新。
No real novelty.
后来我们不得不做出决定，跟他说，大卫，我们不打算在巴西开办公室了。
And one, we had to make the call, hey, David, we're not gonna open the Brazil office.
我们给了他在加州的工作机会。
We offered him a job in California.
但他当时有个想法，想在巴西做金融服务，做信用卡业务。
And he had a notion of a financial services business, a credit card business in Brazil.
有个小问题。
Minor problem.
他不是巴西人。
He wasn't from Brazil.
他对金融服务一窍不通。
He knew nothing about financial services.
但他有一颗金子般的心。
But he had a heart of gold.
他有一颗心，而且是一颗狮子般的心。
He had a heart and a heart of a lion.
所以他是个好人，而且非常有干劲，没人能拦得住他。
So he was a good man with driven like crazy, and no one could stop him.
于是我们就给他投了钱。
And so we seeded him.
我记得有天晚上接到一个电话，当时我在克罗斯特庄园。
And I remember the call one night I was at the Crowst House.
我到现在还记得。
I still remember.
我吃晚饭时接到了一个电话。
I get a call at dinner.
是他。
It's him.
我们承诺投资一百万美元。他问我，接下来我该怎么办？
We committed to $1,000,000 He says to me, What do I do next?
我当时在洗手间。
And I was in the men's room.
我是在洗手间接的这个电话。
I took the call from the men's room.
我们聊了一下，把事情理清楚了。
And we talked it through.
他知道下一步该怎么做。
He knew what to do next.
他只是太孤单了。
He was just all alone.
我现在该怎么办？
What do I do now?
我更多是把它看作一次心理支持电话，而不是关于下一步该怎么做的咨询。
It was more a I viewed it more as a psychological assistance call than a call on what to do next.
他需要一些支持，我们制定了最初两三步的计划，他一点都没耽误。
He wanted some support, and we made a plan of the first two or three things, and he didn't miss a beat.
头两三年甚至头四年，他每一步都走得稳稳当当。
He didn't miss a single beat for the first two or three or four years.
我们后来建了一家公司，现在价值——我是说，几年前就已经是很大的数字了。
And we built a company now worth I mean, it was big numbers a few years ago.
现在有600亿美元了。
It's $60,000,000,000 now.
就像我说的，我刚看到一个初创公司，还没代码呢，就想要100亿美元的投前估值。
Like I said, I just saw a startup that wants to raise money at 10,000,000,000 pre with no code rate.
所以我现在真不知道什么东西值多少钱了。
So I don't know what what things are worth anymore.
嗯，大卫的名声确实非常好。
Well, David has a fantastic reputation.
有
There's a
很多人上过这个节目，或者想上这个节目。
ton of people that have come on the show or people that wanna come on the show.
我总是问他们，还有哪些创始人值得我去聊聊？
And I always ask them, like, what other founders should I talk to?
他们就说，这个人太厉害了。
It's like, this guy is incredible.
对。
Yeah.
这真让人意外。
This is surprising.
所以，一个风投公司的合伙人后来成了世界级的创始人。
So an associate at a venture firm then becomes a world class founder.
你还能想到其他类似他这样经历的例子吗？
Is there other examples that you can think of that follow his pattern?
我见过相反的情况。
I've seen it the other way.
我见过的从投资经理变成创始人的例子不多。
I haven't seen too many associates becoming founders.
对。
Yeah.
你其实是少数几个之一。我觉得大多数风投说“创始人是明星，创始人最重要”的时候，都是在放屁。
You're actually one of the few I think most VCs are full of shit when they say, oh, the founder is the star and the founder is the most important.
说什么用这个工具，或者从零到一是黑魔法。
Use this thing or like the zero to one is the black magic.
然后说那是创始人的工作。
And like that's the founder's job.
我帮不上忙。
I can't help with that.
如果你需要我帮忙做那个，那我们都完蛋了。
If you need me help with that, then we're all fucked.
那我们就完了。
We're fucked.
然后他说，如果风投能做到那些，他们不就成了创始人了吗？
And he's like, the VC could do that, they'd be founders then?
对。
Yes.
然后我说，我会的，你知道，Iconic的Devesh？
And I'm like, I would, you know, Devesh from Iconic?
对。
Yes.
所以我就觉得，他是个狠角色。
So I just He's a killer.
我刚刚跟他吃了一顿疯狂的午餐，他
I just had a fucking crazy lunch He with
是个怪才。
is a freak.
哥们，真该让他来听听我们的对话。
Dude, should sit in our conversations.
他真是个厉害角色。
He is a killer.
我真希望我们当时录下来了。
I wish we would just recorded that.
但我真的是刚从一个不同的晚上过来。
But I literally just came different night.
对，对，
Yeah, yeah,
我当时还跟他聊到你。
And I was talking to him about you.
因为我觉得，道格是真的相信这个。
And because I'm like, I actually think Doug believes this.
我觉得当其他风投说这种话的时候，他们其实是在吹牛，他们其实想当那个主角，而且他们很不愿意承认自己其实是在辅助别人。
Think I when other VCs say this shit, like they're full of shit, they actually want to be the guy and they're very uncomfortable not saying, no, I'm actually assisting them.
我是做服务行业的。
I'm in the service business.
我们就是做服务行业的。
We are in the service business.
我觉得你还真信这个。
I think you actually fucking believe it.
不，我们确实是。
No, we are.
关键在于，如果可能的话，要尽量把创始人留在公司里，留得越久越好。
And what the trick is, is to retain that founder in the company forever if you can and for as long as possible.
因为一旦失去了创始人，你就失去了公司的灵魂。
Because once you lose that founder, you do lose the soul of the company.
一家公司会有很多次类似重新创立的时刻，我们在Meta身上就看到了。
A company has many re founding type moments, and we saw with Meta.
想想看，如果没有Instagram，Meta会是什么样子。
Think of what Meta would be without Instagram.
那家公司可能早就没了。
That company might be gone.
那是谁搞定的？
And who pulled that off?
谁在周末把那家公司买下来的？
Who bought that company in the weekend?
我们周四完成了对Instagram的投资，他周日就把它卖了。
We closed the investment in Instagram on a Thursday, and he sold it on a Sunday.
公关做得很好，但我们其实没赚到钱。
Great IR, but we didn't make any money, really.
所以你要尽可能让创始人留在公司里。
And so you want that founder in building for as long as possible.
想想苹果的重新创立。
Think of the refounding of Apple.
你的合伙人，我在另一个播客里经常引用，莫里茨有句很棒的话。他显然在80年代或70年代写了《小王国》，不管是什么时候。
Your partner, I quote this on my other podcast all the time, Moritz has that great So he wrote obviously the Little Kingdom in whatever the 80s or 70s, whatever it was.
然后他在，我记得是2009年，更新了这本书，叫《小王国归来》
And then he updated it in, I think, 2009 to the Return of
《小王国》
the Little Kingdom,
然后一直更新到后面。
and that updated forward.
再说，莫里茨真是个疯狂的作家。
Again, Moritz is a crazy writer.
他的文笔，
Like, his writing
简直太厉害了。
is phenomenal.
他真的很了不起。
He's he's incredible.
你真该看看他内部的备忘录，他给有限合伙人的报告，搞笑死了。
You should have seen his memos internally, his reports to the limited partners were funny as heck.
这让我很抓狂，因为我靠读传记为生。
It kills me because I read biographies for a living.
对。
Yeah.
那60页的，你知道，那些冷门的、本不该有人拿到的传记，最后都到我这儿来了，因为我就是干这个的。
And that 60 page, you know, all these obscure ones that are not people are not supposed to have, they all come to me anyways because I do this for a living.
我坐下来一口气读完了唐·瓦伦丁写的那本，然后有个莫里茨带过的人，也是我朋友，我私下跟他说，哥们儿，我得为这个做一期《创始人》节目。
And I I sat down and read the Don Valentine one that he wrote in one sitting, and then somebody that's mentored by Moritz that I'm friends with, I backchanneled, like, dude, I gotta fucking do a Founders episode of this.
结果回来说绝对不行。
And it came back absolutely not.
我当时就想，真见鬼。
I'm like, goddamn it.
我记得那时候，我和迈克，你知道，我们俩一起管红杉，一个冷酷的战略派英国人，一个战术派、爱交际的意大利人。
I remember that when I was there's Mike and I, you know, we both ran Sequoia, a cold blooded strategic Brit and a tactical Italian, gregarious Italian.
我们本来不该是搭档，但我们硬是合作了二十五年。
We had no business being partners, but we made it work for twenty five years.
但我记得我抽屉里放着一本词典，一本黑色的小词典，因为迈克在派对上开会时，他会用一个你必须知道意思的词，因为那是理解整句话的关键。
But I remember I had a dictionary in my desk, a little black dictionary, because Mike in a party's meeting, he would use a word that you had to know the meaning of because it was the key to the sentence.
我记得我假装去上厕所，然后去查那个词。
I remember faking like I'm going to the bathroom, going and look look it up.
就像，那是什么意思？
Like, what does that mean?
嗯，他在里面写的那段话，我觉得他说，你知道，转型无论怎样都很困难。
Well, the writing that he put in there, I think he said, you know, turnarounds are difficult no matter what.
在科技行业，转型更是难上加难。
In technology business, they're doubly difficult.
几乎闻所未闻。
They're almost unheard of.
他说，在转型过程中，有哪家科技公司真正重新创立过呢？
He's like, when when has there ever been essentially a refounding of a technology company in in the middle of a turnaround?
然后他还有一句很棒的话。
And he and then he has a great line.
就像，第一次的时候，你知道，他有一个合伙人，一个联合创始人。
Was like, and the first time, you know, he had a partner, had a co founder.
而第二次重新创立时，他是独自一人。
The the second, refounding, he was by himself.
独自一人。
By himself.
是的。
Yes.
即使人们不读整本书，虽然我非常推荐读，只要买《小王国归来》并读迈克尔·莫里茨写的前言。
That even if people don't read the entire book, which I'd highly recommend reading, just buy The Return of the Lower Kingdom and read the forward that Michael Moritz wrote.
对。
Yeah.
它能让你深入了解史蒂夫·乔布斯的心理，以及他是多么罕见的天才。
It gives you an insight into the psychology and just how rare of a talent that Steve Jobs was.
有人可能会说，英伟达也有过重新创立的时刻。
One could argue that NVIDIA had a refounding moment.
那是一家图形芯片公司。
That was a graphics chip company.
在那之前，没有一家公司能在图形芯片领域挺过两个周期。
And no company up to then had made it through two cycles in graphics chip.
而它已经做到了两个周期，这让我们所有人都感到震惊。
And already, it achieved the two cycle thing, which shocked all of us.
然后我们都松懈了。
And then we all fell asleep.
他们多年来一直在推出GPU。
They came up with a GPU for many years.
对。
Okay.
那只是更快的CPU。
It's a faster CPU.
有一天，我们突然发现，NVIDIA已经变成了一家AI公司。
And one day, we all woke up and NVIDIA was an AI company.
这完全是由同一位创始人重新创立的。
That was a complete refounding by the same founder.
我在读《从零到一》这本书时，发现了一句我一直很喜欢的话。
I found one of my all time favorite quotes when I was reading the book Zero to One.
这句话是：我注意到的最强大的模式是，成功的人会在意想不到的地方发现价值，他们通过从第一性原理而非公式来思考商业来实现这一点。
The quote says, the single most powerful pattern I have noticed is that successful people find value in unexpected places, and they do this by thinking about business from first principles instead of formulas.
这正是AppLovin在广告平台上所做的。
That is exactly what AppLovin has done with their advertising platform.
AppLovin能让你在手机游戏里接触到超过十亿的潜在新客户。
AppLovin connects you with over a billion potential new customers inside mobile games.
AppLovin让你能抓住用户全部的注意力。
AppLovin allows you to capture undivided attention.
AppLovin的广告是全屏视频广告，平均观看时长达到三十五秒。
AppLovin ads are full screen video ads that are watched for an average of thirty five seconds.
这样的用户留存率让其他广告平台望尘莫及。
That is retention that blows other ad platforms out of the water.
而且你几分钟内就能在AppLovin上启动。
And you can launch on AppLovin in minutes.
你设定目标，AppLovin帮你实现。
You set the goal, and AppLovin achieves it.
不需要复杂的设置，也不需要专业知识，AppLovin能快速扩展。
There's no complex setup, no expertise needed, and AppLovin scales quickly.
他们能把你的广告展示给超过十亿的潜在客户。
They can put your ads in front of over a billion potential customers.
其他企业已经看到了立竿见影的效果，日投放金额达到数十万美元，收入增加了数百万。
Other businesses have seen immediate results, have scaled to hundreds of thousands of dollars of spend per day, and increased their revenue by millions.
所以你要在竞争对手都涌向AppLovin之前赶紧开始。
So you want to get started quickly before all of your competitors are on AppLovin.
你可以通过访问applovin.com来做到这一点。
And you can do that by going to applovin.com.
就是applovin.com。
That's applovin.com.
当我问你有没有给自己的人生制造痛苦，你说应该对孩子也这样，我当时想到的是黄仁勋，因为有一本泰·金写的书叫《英伟达之道》，虽然讲的是英伟达的公司历史，但里面的传记背景足够多，完全可以当黄仁勋的传记来读。
When I asked you if you induce any misery into your life, like you're saying you should induce it to your kids, I was thinking about Jensen because, there's this book by Tay Kim called NVIDIA Way, which is kind of a company history of NVIDIA, but it gives you enough biographical background you can function as a biography of Jensen.
他在书里说过类似的话，就是不喜欢放弃别人。
And he says something in there where he's like, you know, don't like giving up on people.
他宁愿把人折磨成伟大。
I'd rather torture them into greatness.
对。
Yes.
你读到书的结尾就会发现，哦，他对自己也是这么干的。
You get to the end of the book, it's like, oh, he does that to himself.
当然啦。
Of course he does.
他把自己折磨成伟大。
He tortures himself into greatness.
他每天早上醒来，对着镜子问自己为什么这么差劲。
He wakes up in the morning, looks in the mirror, and asks why he sucks so much.
如果你愿意对自己这么狠，别人就会追随你。
And if you're willing to do that to yourself, people will follow you.
而且大家会一路逼自己，直到目标达成。
And people will torture themselves all the way until the goal is met.
但你自己得能做到，你得愿意对自己下狠手，别人看得见。
But you have to be able to do, you have to be willing to do that to yourself and people see that.
你对自己狠过吗？
Did you torture yourself?
当然。
Absolutely.
我这辈子都是这样。
My whole life.
我只会这一种活法。
That's all I know.
所以你内心的独白是负面的？
So your inner monologue's negative?
我内心其实挺痛苦的。
I'm kind of a miserable soul on the inside.
能多说说这个吗？
Say more about this.
我总是不太开心。
I'm always a little unhappy.
我的本能就是不开心。
My instincts are to be unhappy.
但我表现得积极向上，大家觉得和我在一起很有趣。
And I carry a positive vibe and people see me as fun to be around.
这不是装的，但私下里我其实很不开心。
It's not an act, but when in my private moments I'm pretty unhappy.
一直如此。
Always.
我真的很痛苦。
I'm pretty miserable.
没有什么能改变这一点吗？
And nothing changes it?
我的孩子们。
My kids.
和我的孩子、孙子孙女，或者几个好朋友在高尔夫球场上的时候，我能得到片刻的解脱。
I have reprieve when I'm with my kids and my grandkids or some good friends on a golf course.
我不打高尔夫。
I don't I play golf.
我高尔夫打得很烂。
I don't I suck at golf.
总是那三个朋友，我们能一起笑上四个小时。
It's the same three guys, so we can laugh for four hours.
我打断你一下。
I'm gonna interrupt you real quick.
这是从你来到这个国家开始的吗？
Does this start when you come to this country?
你是从什么时候开始，你讲的那个故事，就像是个宝贝一样，
You do you go from the you tell the story of being like this precious, like,
宝贝？
Precious?
不知道。
Don't know.
我不
I don't
知道我十岁的时候是不是个阳光男孩。
know if I'm A positive boy at 10.
乖孩子
Sweet boy
那时候是个乖小孩。
at Sweet little boy.
然后到了十五岁。
And then at 15.
对。
Yeah.
对。
Yeah.
所以，那个大卫·沃格比有个很好的说法。
So that disc divine David Vogerby has this great way to put this.
他说，所有伟大的人都会做出伟大的事。
He says all great people do great stuff.
对。
Yeah.
他们都有一种神圣的不满足感。
Are divinely discontent.
是的。
Yes.
就是永远不满足。
Just never satisfied.
有个词我以前一直很讨厌，但现在学着喜欢了，那就是“满足”。
A word I've always hated that I've learned to like is content.
直到两三年前，我都还很讨厌那个词。
I hated that word until about two or three years ago.
我讨厌“满足”这个词。
I hated the word content.
感觉就像是在将就什么似的。
It felt like settling for something.
我真的很讨厌它。
I hated it.
现在年纪大了，觉得到这个阶段，满足也挺好的。
Now as I get older, it's okay to be content at this point.
也许我是过了巅峰期，所以才接受了这个词。
Maybe I'm over the hill because I've accepted that word.
别这么说自己。
Stop talking about yourself that way.
不，
No,
我是认真的。
I'm serious.
而且你也不会放弃。
And you're not quitting either.
我不喜欢你现在的这种态度。
I don't like this attitude I'm getting from you.
不，我明白。
No, I have it.
你已经坚持了九十一天，你不会在九个月后放弃的。
You're ninety one days in, you're not giving up nine months from now.
我不会放弃，但可能我表达出来的是我害怕得要命。
I'm not giving up, but maybe it came through that I'm scared shitless.
好。
Good.
对。
Yeah.
这说明你他妈的正在干点什么。
That means you're fucking doing something.
我还没干成什么呢。
I haven't done anything yet.
你会干成的。
Gonna do something.
你还没准备好退出这个圈子。
You're not ready to be out the game.
所以我从来没离开过这个圈子。
So I was never out of the game.
没错。
Exactly.
就是
It's
我从来没离开过这个行业。
my I was never out of the game.
不过，其中有一个，我不觉得这是个游戏。
Well, one of them I don't think of it as a game.
我觉得这是个生意，里面雇了很多人。
I think of it as a business where people are employed.
我们70%的资金来自非营利组织和慈善机构，所以我从来没把它当成游戏。
70% of of our capital comes from nonprofits, charities, so I never thought of it as a game.
事实上，我经营红杉的时候，确保我们用了所有正确的词。
In fact, when I ran Sequoia, made sure we used all the right words.
这不是游戏。
It's not a game.
不是把钱扔在地上，那些乱七八糟的。
It's not money in the ground, none of that bullshit.
这是个生意，我们努力帮助创始人建立伟大的公司，这样我们就能为有限合伙人带来丰厚的回报。
It's a business where we're trying to help founders build great companies so we can have great returns for our limited partners.
这就是我们做的生意。
That's the business we're in.
但如果我选择退出，那绝不是因为害怕。
But if I take myself out, it won't be done out of fear.
而是出于对合作伙伴的尊重和善意。
It'd be out of good taste and kindness for my partners.
不是因为恐惧。
It's not out of fear.
我永远不会因为害怕而放弃。
I'll never give up out of fear.
但如果一年后，我什么都做不好了，我会自己照照镜子，对自己说：你完了，这次你不行了。
But if after a year, I'm not good for anything, I'm going to be the one that's going to have a look in the mirror and say, You're done, that you couldn't do it this last time.
过去几年我做了很多好事，我想继续做下去，包括创办公司等等。
Now, I've done a whole bunch of good things in the last couple of years that I want to get into, including starting a company and so on.
我觉得自己正处于巅峰状态。
I happen to think I'm at tip top of my game.
但这一次，我必须证明自己。
But in this one, I have to show it.
我还没展示过呢。
I haven't shown it yet.
而且一切都看表现。
And it's all in performance.
你做什么不重要，重要的是最终结果。
It doesn't matter what you do, it's the results at the end.
你有没有见过有人
Have you seen anybody in
在你的行业里待得太久？
your business stay too long?
待得太久？
Stay too long?
太多了，数不清。
A million people.
唐呢？
Did Don?
没有。
No.
唐·唐在1993年退下来了。
Don Don stepped down in 1993.
我猜，他当时大概58到60岁吧。
I believe, I'm gonna guess, he was probably 60 58 to 60 years of age.
他没有待太久。
He didn't stick around for for too long.
他什么时候停的？
When did he stop?
我觉得他受够了。
I think he had enough.
我觉得他受够了。
I think he had enough.
他有两个他觉得可以接班的人，就是迈克·莫里茨和我。
He had two guys in Mike Moritz and me that he thought could take over.
还有一些年纪更大的人也想接班。
He had older people that wanted to take over.
有意思的是，唐告诉我们，我们就是那两个人。
And it's interesting how Don told us we were the guys.
当时没有什么大张旗鼓的谈话。
There wasn't a there wasn't a big conversation.
就是一张黄色的纸。
It was a yellow sheet of paper.
唐总是用绿笔写在黄纸上。
Don always wrote in green pen and a yellow sheet of paper.
有一天，我们收到一张小纸条，上面写着：迈克，1.1。
One day, we get a little note that said, Mike, 1.1.
道格，1.1。
Doug, 1.1.
另一个名字，另一个年轻人，我不想让任何人难堪，一点零。
The other name, another young man, I don't wanna embarrass anybody, one point o.
那些年纪大的人，零点七六。
The older guys, point 7.6.
这就是下一支基金的收益分配愿景。
That was the vision of the carry for the next fund.
DTV，问号。
DTV, question mark.
你自己想好要给我什么。
You figure out what you want to give me.
就这样，我和迈克知道我们就是被选中的两个人。
And that's how Mike and I knew we were the two guys that were chosen.
连谈都不谈吗？
There's not even a conversation?
没有谈。
No conversation.
所以我非常欣赏他的思维方式。
So I'm a big fan of the way he thinks.
他做过几次演讲。
He gave a few talks
也许他跟迈克·莫里茨谈过。
Maybe he talked to Mike Moritz.
他没跟我谈过。
He didn't with me.
我只看到了那张纸。
I just saw this sheet of paper.
对我来说，想到他，我觉得他在思考和做事方面就像个简单的天才。
To me, when I think about him, he's like a simple genius to the way he thought and operated.
这样形容他准确吗？
Would that be an accurate way to describe him?
我觉得有一部分是偶然的。
I think part of it was accidental.
听着，我很喜欢唐·瓦伦丁，关于他我挑不出什么毛病，但他也和我们所有人一样犯过很多错误。
Look, I love Don Valentine, and there's not a bad things I could say about Don Valentine, but Don also made a ton of mistakes as we all did.
我们把思科的股票卖了换成现金，总共赚了九千万。
We sold our Cisco shares for cash for the total gain of 90,000,000.
我们当时拥有思科系统四分之一的股份。
We owned a quarter of Cisco Systems.
按美元算，这个错误有多大？
How big is that mistake in dollar terms?
思科的市值最高时可能达到五千亿。
What's Cisco's market cap at its height might have been 500,000,000.
所以四分之一乘以五千亿是多少？
So like what's a 0.25 or 500,000,000?
比零多得多，抱歉。
A lot more than no, sorry.
五千亿。
500,000,000,000.
一万亿美元。
1,000,000,000,000.
对，我明白。
Yeah, I understand what
你说是五千亿美元。
you 500,000,000,000.
那是一大笔钱。
A lot of money.
比九千万
A lot
多得多。
more than 90.
但你看，我们都会犯错。
But look, we all make mistakes.
我在ServiceNow推动了多少次分红？
How many of distributions I push for at ServiceNow?
我把一个十倍回报的机会留在了桌上。
I left a 10xer on a table.
十倍回报，太疯狂了。
10x is crazy.
我们留下了数十亿又数十亿美元，就像我们在风投行业里所有人做的那样。
We'd left billions upon billions of dollars as we all did in the venture industry.
但你知道这个故事。
But you know the story.
我相信你听说过唐·瓦伦丁给我的评价。
I'm sure that you've heard the story of of my review from Don Valentine.
我不太确定。
I don't I don't know.
所以，我从一次演示中出来，当时有唐、我、另外两个人，还有一个创始人，我猜我问了一些问题，可能太咄咄逼人了。
So I came out of a presentation with a it was Don, me, and two other guys and a founder, and I guess I asked some questions, maybe too aggressively.
我起身时，桌上有一张纸条。
There was a note on the table when I get up.
道格，不适合听创始人的话。
Doug dash not fit to listen to founders.
他把那张纸条留在桌上让我看到。
He left that on the table for me to see.
我喜欢听到年轻人的反馈，然后我得到三个月的评估。
I love whenever I hear young guys, I like some feedback, and I get a three month review.
那就是我的评估，当场就来了。
That was my review right then and there.
所以，嘿，那真是艰难的一课。
And so, hey, that was a school of hard knocks.
那是半导体时代。
It was a semiconductor days.
当然，我们随着时间不断进化。
Of course, we evolved through time.
创始人是我们这个行业最重要的人。
Founders are the most important person in our business.
创始人第一，客户第二，我们排第三。
Founder first, our client second, and us third.
这不是因为我们是什么童子军，也不是因为我们甘愿排第三，而是因为我们知道，只要对创始人好，我们就能获得丰厚的回报，到时候大家都有份。
It's not that we're Boy Scouts, it's not that we are third, but we know if we do right by founders, we'll have great returns of which we'll share.
所以唐真的很棒。
So Don was wonderful.
当时在红杉，大家都想把我赶走，因为我实在让人受不了，只有唐说，给这个年轻人多一点时间。
Don was the one when everybody wanted me out at Sequoia because I was insufferable, Don was the one that said give the young guy a little more time.
所以他救了我一命。
So he saved my ass.
回到那个过早卖出的错误。
Back to this mistake of selling early.
我刚读完一本书。
I just finished reading this book.
这本书基本上是一本1966年出版的传记，讲的是所有那些商业银行家族的故事。
It's essentially a biography published in 1966 on all the merchant bank families.
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