Gustav Söderström，Spotify

而且这个市场的规模也特别大。

And it also happens to have a very large TAM.

几乎没人不听音乐。

There is almost no one that doesn't listen to music.

比社交媒体的用户量还大，对吧？

It's bigger than social networking, right?

不是人人都用社交媒体，但人人都听音乐。

Not everyone does social networking, but everyone does music.

所以我们一开始就选了一个对世界很有正面意义的领域。

So we started in this space which was very positive for the world.

我觉得这是丹尼尔有意做出的决定。

And I think that was a deliberate decision from Daniel.

他非常热爱音乐。

He was passionate about music.

他想做一件有意义的事。

He wanted to do something that was meaningful.

我不觉得这是运气，因为看看他现在在做的事，还是围绕着对世界、对欧洲有益的方向，而不是单纯追求更多钱。

I don't think it was luck because if you look at the things he's doing now, it's in that same space of being good for the world and for Europe, etcetera, rather than just more money.

所以我觉得这绝不是偶然。

So I don't think it was an accident.

但话说回来，我们确实是在无意中撞上了这个方向。

But still, you could say we lucked into it.

但后来我们意识到，这件事其实很重要。

But then we realized that this is important.

我们正在带来很多快乐。

We're bringing a lot of joy.

所以当我们考虑下一步该做什么时，就注意到了播客——那时候互联网上已经流行越来越短的内容，人们的注意力也越来越短。

So when we looked at what to do next, we looked at podcasts and we saw this thing where there was this, you know, the pattern on the internet already back then was shorter and shorter form content, shorter and shorter attention spans.

当时感觉世界好像要完蛋了，只会一路下滑。

It looked like the world was lost, like it's just going to go to hell.

但当你去看播客，就会发现，与此同时，还有人做着非常长、非常深入的对话，人们完整地表达观点，把想法讲得清清楚楚。

But then you looked at podcasts and you said, no, at the same time, there are these very long, deep discussions where people speak in full sentences, get to explain full ideas.

他们不一定遭到攻击。

They don't necessarily get attacked.

更多是被人反驳之类的。

They get retort and so forth.

我们认为这对世界其实是有好处的。

We said that we think this is actually good for the world.

当时我们也不知道会发展到多大，所以只能赌一把。

We didn't know how big it was going to be, so we had to take a chance on that.

但我们觉得这既是商业机会，也对世界有益。

But we thought it was a business opportunity and good for the world.

这就是我们的视角。

That's our lens.

于是我们就投身其中，把播客引入了Spotify。

So we went into that and we built podcasts into Spotify.

有声读物也是同样的情况。

And it was the same thing with audiobooks.

我们认为，读书是世界上最重要的事情之一。

We think that books is one of the most important things that happen in the world.

我本人非常热爱书籍，但这也确实是个不错的商业机会。

And I'm very passionate about books, but it's also a good business opportunity.

我们很幸运身处瑞典，那里的媒体使用习惯不知为何一直走在前列。

And we were fortunate to be in Sweden that for some reason tends to be pretty advanced in media habits.

在瑞典，有声书早就已经非常流行了。

In Sweden, audiobooks is already a very big thing.

我们对这个市场有很强的信心。

We have quite high conviction over the market.

我们一直专注于那些我们认为和用户都觉得值得花时间的事情，但从未对外明确说过这是我们的战略。

So we've kept going into these things that are considered by ourselves and users time well spent, but we never fully articulated that as a strategy externally.

我们最近才开始公开谈论这一点。

We've only recently started talking about it.

不过，你们内部有没有把它明确为一项战略呢？

Did you articulate it as a strategy internally though?

很长一段时间里，我们一直有个叫‘不后悔’的策略，但对外我们几乎没提过。

For a long time, we've had a strategy called no regrets, but we largely haven't said that externally.

我不确定‘不后悔’是不是最贴切的说法。

And I don't know if no regrets is the best

我觉得时间会证明一切。

think time will speak better

关于这一点。

about it.

这标准也太低了。

It's like, that's a low bar.

但我们一遍又一遍地强调过。

But we've said it again and again.

这真的算‘不后悔’吗？

Like, is this really no regrets?

这个想法的由来挺有意思的。

What that comes from is interesting.

我们通过第三方匿名调查了用户。

We surveyed our users through a third party anonymously.

我们经常这么做。

We do that all the time.

有人来找你，问你对这些媒体服务器怎么看。

Someone comes and asks you, What do you think of these media servers?

而且不会透露他们代表谁。

Without saying who they represent.

这样你才能说真话。

So you get the truth.

我们就是靠这个来了解自己和竞争对手的差距。

That's how we understand how we're doing versus competitors and so forth.

所以我们让他们对所有主流媒体平台都做了调查。

So we had them survey across all the big media platforms.

‘无悔’这个说法就是这么来的。

And this is where the no regret comes from.

我们问的问题是，你对自己花在这些平台上的时间感觉怎么样？

We asked the question like, how do you feel about the time you spent?

比如用 Spotify 的时候？

Using Spotify?

所有平台都问了。

All of them.

你在 Spotify、YouTube、Apple Music、Amazon、TikTok 上花的时间，感觉如何？

The time you spent on Spotify, YouTube, Apple Music, Amazon, TikTok, all of them.

就是想了解你真实的感受。

Just understand how you felt about it.

但我们也问了相反的问题：事后你后悔花了多少时间？

But then we also asked the opposite question: How much of your time did you regret afterwards?

收到调查结果时，有两件事让我挺意外的。

And what was interesting was when we got that survey back, there were two things that surprised me.

其中一件事其实没那么出乎意料。

One didn't surprise me so much.

在我们调查的这些平台里，我们自己的用户后悔使用的时间比例其实是最低的。

We were actually the lowest regret content sort of on the internet in terms of the platforms we asked for.

或者说反过来，Z世代觉得他们在网络上花的时间里，有将近九成都是值得的。

Or if you flip it around, some of the time most well spent on the internet with Gen Z saying that they value almost 90% of the time they spend.

用完之后他们感觉特别好。

They feel very good about it afterwards.

这一点挺让人欣慰的。

So that was good.

但真正让我惊讶的是，那些没点名的平台，情况恰恰相反。

But what surprised me was the opposite without naming which ones.

在很多主流平台上，人们后悔自己花了将近六成甚至更多的上网时间。

On many of the big platforms, people regretted almost 60% of the time they spent or more.

而且这些用户都是年轻人。

And these were young people.

在看到这份调查之前，我知道这些平台的用户活跃度高得离谱，但我误以为他们之所以待在那里，是因为真心想待。

And what shocked me was before I saw that survey, I knew that these were insanely high engagement platforms, but I kind of mistakenly thought that they were there because they wanted to be there.

我当时还觉得，他们应该挺享受的。

I'm like, they're probably enjoying it.

结果一问，人家说，不是，我就是被困住了。

Turns out when you ask them, they're like, no, I'm trapped.

我觉得自己花在那上面的时间特别不值。

I feel horrible about the time I spent.

所以我之前以为他们在那儿待着并且挺开心的，这个想法是错的。

So I was mistaken in thinking that they were there and they loved the time.

它真的特别吸引人。

It's just very, very captivating.

所以我们决定，好吧，我们内部一直有这句话。

So then we decided, okay, we've had this as a saying internally for some time.

干脆把它变成一种真正的策略，成为互联网上最让人觉得时间花得值的产品之一。

Let's just make it an actual strategy to be some of the most time well spent on the internet.

所以当我们审视某样东西时，比如现在说的健身。

And so when we look at something, we're talking about fitness now, for example.

为什么？

Why?

因为我们觉得很少有人会后悔去锻炼，或者说

Because we think very few people regret doing a workout or What

你提到的锻炼是指什么？

do mean you're talking about fitness?

我们刚宣布和一些公司达成了合作，并且正在投入大量资源，因为差不多有70%的Spotify用户在锻炼时都会听Spotify。

We just announced some partnerships with a bunch of companies and we're investing in three quarters of almost 70% of people on Spotify work out with Spotify.

所以我们正在加大对健身领域的投入，努力把Spotify打造成更好的健身伴侣应用。

So we're investing more into fitness, into becoming an even better fitness app.

这只是一个方面，就像音乐、播客、书籍一样。

So this is one area, kind of like, you know, music, podcast, books.

我们只是在这些领域加大投入。

We're just investing more in it.

那会是什么样子？

What would that look like?

今天早上我伴侣罗布在中央公园跑步时一直在听Spotify。

My partner Rob was running through Central Park this morning listening to Spotify.

所以他一边锻炼，一边用你们的应用。

So he was exercising while using your app.

明白了。

Okay.

这个功能几周后就会上线。

So this is going to come out in a few weeks.

我先跟你说说我们在投资者大会上要讲的内容，我是个跑步爱好者。

So I'll tell you kind of what we're going to talk about at I'm Investor a runner.

我特别热爱跑步。

I'm passionate about running.

我们发现很多用户跑步时都用Spotify，还会自己创建歌单。

And we see a lot of people running with Spotify, and they make their own playlists.

我特别希望很快就能实现一个功能——你打开Spotify，直接告诉它，这正是AI的绝佳应用场景。

One of the things I want to be possible that's going to be possible very soon is that you go into Spotify, you just tell Spotify, this is one of the good use cases of AI, I think.

你跟Spotify说：我想找一个配速每英里八分钟的跑步歌单，风格要符合我的喜好，节奏还得踩在步点上——要么双脚着地时，要么单脚着地时。

You say to Spotify, you know, I want running playlist for like an eight minute mile and I want it to be in my taste, but I want it to be on the downbeat, either on my on both my feet or just one of my feet.

对吧？

Right?

而且我希望它每周自动更新一次。

And I want you to update it weekly.

这其实是个挺复杂的需求。

It's a pretty complicated task.

所以我们第一步得先算清楚，每英里八分钟到底意味着什么？

So then what what we want to be able to do is to first calculate, like, an eight minute mile, what does that mean?

简单说，如果你平均身高，步频大概在每分钟165步左右吧。

Well, roughly, if your average height may be 165 steps per minute or something like that.

明白。

K.

接下来就得去搜音乐，节奏要么是每分钟160拍，要么是它的一半——80拍。

Now we gotta go and find music in in either a 160 or half of that 80.

所以要么每一步都踩在节拍上，要么就隔一步踩一次。

So it's either on every downstep or every other downstep.

好的。

K.

你倒是能找到一些音乐，但数量不会太多。

You're gonna find some music there, but not a lot.

这时候你就得把范围放宽一点，然后把音乐的速度调快或调慢，精确地调到每分钟160拍或者80拍。

So now you wanna look a little bit broader, and then you actually want to speed them up or slow them down to exactly 160 or exactly 80.

接着还得把它们无缝混在一起，做到节拍完全对齐。

And then you actually want to mix them together with perfect beat match transitions.

对吧？

Right?

然后你还要在上面叠加语音提示，比如‘现在进入间歇阶段了’‘接下来要减速了’之类的。

And then you actually wanna overlay commentary on top of it saying like, now you're gonna go into the interval part and now you're gonna slow down and so forth.

我们正在打造的就是这类体验。

So these are the kinds of experience that we're building.

这就是我说的深入健身的意思。

This is what I mean with going deeper into fitness.

这是那种你不会后悔、时间花得值的领域。

That's one of those no regrets area or time was fair.

是的，没人会在健身房待上一小时。

Yeah, no one spends an hour in the gym

也不会跑去跑上一小时。

or an hour running.

不，你练完只会觉得天啊，这70%简直白费了。

No, you come out and feel like, oh my God, I regret 70% of that.

你不会的。

You don't.

这一直是我们坚持的原则。

It's been our guiding principle.

我觉得有意思的是，我都50岁了，这辈子干过不少有意思的事。

And what I think is interesting about it is, you know, I'm 50, I've done a lot of interesting things in my life.

你得弄清楚，自己真正想把一生花在什么事上。

You gotta figure out what you actually wanna spend your life on.

对吧？

Right?

我想把人生用在那些让我内心踏实、而且能感到自豪的事情上。

And I wanna spend my life on on doing something that I feel good about personally and that I kinda feel proud of.

你确实会感觉良好，但人真正感到满足，是因为做的事对别人有帮助。

You feel good, but you know like, the way a human's gonna feel good is if what they're doing is actually in service of other people.

我知道你对哲学挺感兴趣的。

This is a you're I know you're into philosophy.

这种想法，几千年前的人早就懂了。

This is a humans for yourself thousands of years ago.

这可不是什么新观点。

This is not a new idea.

早在一千年前，这道理就成立了。

It's something that was true a thousand years ago.

今天也是如此。

It's true today.

将来也一定会是这样，这可不是一时兴起。

Will be true not this covers.

我和米兰——他坐在那边——在你来之前我刚和他聊过，他在Spotify工作。

Me and Milan, who's sitting over there, I was talking to he works at Spotify right before you came.

我跟他聊了这个事，因为他提到，你现在有两个播客都上了商业类排行榜。

Was talking to him about this because he's like, you have two two different podcasts on the business charts right now.

我就跟他说，听好了，这个新节目，我简直上瘾了。

And I was like, listen, this new show, I'm addicted to doing it.

我睡不着觉。

I can't sleep.

每次聊完这些对话，我都特别兴奋。

I get wired from these conversations.

我这么做，完全是出于自己的喜好。

I'm doing it selfishly.

这是一种另类的教育方式，但我真的觉得，《创始人播客》是我一生的事业。

It's another form of education, but I really feel that, like, Founders Podcast is, like, my life's work.

每当我发布一期节目，我都清楚，这对这个世界是有益的。

And the way I feel, like, when I put that out, I know it's good for the world.

我知道这些对话能给世界带来积极影响。

Know these conversations are good for the world.

我可不想做出一堆垃圾播客内容。

I was like, I'm not gonna make fucking podcast slop.

我当然希望节目有趣，但核心是想让你从这些取得非凡成就的人身上获得启发和知识。

It's not I'm not trying I want it to be entertaining, but at the core, it's like, want you to be inspired and educated by these people that have accomplished great things.

而关键在于，让你明白：你也可以做到。

And then the the the point was just like that knowing that, like, you can do it too.

是的。

Yeah.

这真的对世界有好处。

That is good for the world.

做这件事让我感觉很好。

I feel good doing that.

我不是非得把它跟别的东西挂钩，比如非得赚到多少钱我才做，根本不是这么回事。

And it's not like a I like a I need to make certain it's it's not tied to anything else other than like, not like, oh, I wouldn't do this if I unless I can make x dollars.

我对那些根本不在乎。

Like, I don't give a shit about that.

我在乎的是这个。

I care.

钱的事自然会有办法。

The money will take care of itself.

我关心的是为这个世界带来有价值的东西。

I care about putting out good things for the world.

我觉得你说得对，每个哲学家历史上都走到过这一步。

And I think to your point, everyone gets there, and every philosopher in history got there.

关键只是，你到底要在人生什么时候才明白这个道理？

The question is just, how late in life do you get there?

我觉得你比很多人早得多就找到了方向，有些人一辈子都没找到。

I think you got there a lot earlier than And and some people never did.

我花了

It took

三十二年才找到自己的路，之后又熬了五年半的苦日子，才真正能靠这个养活自己。

me thirty two years to find my path and another five and a half of fucking struggling until it actually, like, could sustain me.

是的。

Yeah.

现在呢，我每天醒来都很清楚自己在做什么。

And then now, it's like I wake up every day.

我对自己的方向从不怀疑。

It's like, have no doubts what I'm doing.

我一直在翻阅那些前辈的旧书，从中挖掘他们了不起的洞见，把它们传递给下一代创业者，就像我们现在这样交流。

I was like, I'm going to build well, again, I'm mining these old books of somebody who did something amazing for ideas and insights that we can push down to the next generation of entrepreneurs, and we're having conversations like this where we talked before.

以前大家总说，你问的这个问题，简直完美切中了你的听众的心声。

Was like everybody's like, oh, you you know, you you you asked this perfect question for your audience.

我说这些其实有点自私，因为我很清楚，有上千万个像大卫一样的人在听。

Like, I'm having this conversation selfishly because I just know there's there's 10,000,000 Davids listening to this

是的。

Yeah.

他们和你有同样的兴趣，想知道你刚才说的，你今年五十了？

That that have the same interests, that want to know what is in you you said you're 50.

你卖掉了第一家初创公司，之后又在大公司工作，这种独特的人生经历太罕见了。

You've been working at you sold your first startup, then you work you have such a singular life experience.

这正是我刚才和丹尼尔聊到的内容。

This is what me and Daniel were talking about earlier.

谁会卖掉自己的公司，然后在大企业干十八年，最后还当上CEO？

Like, who the hell sells their startup, works at a big company for eighteen years, then becomes CEO?

这是一条不一样的路。

It's it's a different path.

这是一条

It's a

非常不寻常的路。

very unusual path.

我想聊聊人工智能，因为……

I wanna talk about AI because

关于刚才说的那些时间花得值的事，我觉得有意思的是，这些话听起来好像挺容易说的？

Can I say something going on the on the previous What thing I think is interesting with this time well spent is these things are sort of easy to say?

我觉得每个人都会说服自己，说自己的确在为世界做贡献，哪怕那些其实并没有的人也是。因为说实话，要完全坦诚地面对自己，承认‘我根本没为世界做任何好事’，这太难了。

I think everyone convinces themselves that they're doing good for the world, even the ones who don't, because most you know, it's very I think it's very hard to be honest with yourself, totally honest, and saying, like, I'm not actually doing anything good for the world.

但一旦有人这么做了，他们就会说服自己。

Where if people do that, they convince themselves.

我有个例子可以说明这一点。

Oh, I have an example of this

是的。

Yeah.

我想聊聊这个。

That I wanna talk about.

是的

Yeah.

我们经常收到各种提案，但别忘了，你心里其实是怎么想的。

So we get, obviously, all these pitches, and don't forget that hopefully, don't forget what you're thinking.

对。

No.

没错。

No.

很好。

Cool.

但你听我说。

But, like, listen.

我不是有意冒犯。

No disrespect.

我最喜欢的电影之一是《教父》，其中我最欣赏的一幕是索洛去见马龙·白兰度的那段。

One of my favorite movies is The Godfather, and one of my favorite scenes is where Slotso goes to meet Marlon Brando.

他跟马龙·白兰度说，嘿。

And he's like and Marlon's like, hey.

别人怎么谋生跟我没关系，但我不能掺和，因为你卖毒品给小孩，这跟我一点关系都没有。

It's none of my business how another man makes his living, but I can't get involved in that because, you know, you're dealing drugs to kids and it's not interesting to me.

所以我也有同样的想法。

So I feel the same way.

我教孩子的一些原则，第一条是管好自己的事，第二条也是管好自己的事。

Like I mind of my principles I teach my kids is like, number one Rule number two is like, mind your own business.

但有人来找我推销过。

But I had somebody pitch me.

他们说，想跟我们深度合作，做一个预测市场。

They're like, We want to partner do a deep partnership as one of the prediction markets.

我当时在电话里跟他们聊，但对他们一无所知。

I'm on the phone with them, and I didn't know anything about them.

但他们描述自己的方式是，我们正在打造一台追求真相的机器。

But the way they describe themselves, so like, we're building a maximum truth seeking machine.

我拿出手机查了一下，不过我不说那家公司的名字。

And I pull up on my phone, I go to I'm not going say the company.

我搜了一下，结果网站首页赫然写着：新英格兰爱国者队那场比赛的抛硬币谁会赢。

I type in and I go, dude, the first thing I see on your website is who's going to win the coin flip for the New England Patriots game.

如果你直说就是想赌一把赚大钱，我反而还敬你几分。

If you're just saying we want to fucking gamble and make a ton of money, I'd respect that.

但别拿什么‘打造极致求真机器’这种鬼话来忽悠我。

But don't give me this other bullshit that you're building maximum truth seeking machines.

对。

Yeah.

但这就是我的观点。

But that's my point.

我觉得几乎每个人都得自己说服自己这一点。

I think almost everyone has to convince themselves of that.

所以干脆直接质疑一下，问问他们，做这件事真的有意义吗？

So to kind of call bullshit and ask them, does it actually mean anything to do this?

这意味着你得避开一些东西。

Well, it means that you have to stay away from some things.

最近我们做了一个决定，你知道，现在所有播客都在转向视频形式。

So one decision that we did recently was, you know, all podcasts are turning into video podcasts.

所以我们也就跟上了。

And so we followed them.

我拍视频的唯一原因就是你们老缠着我。

The only reason I do videos is because you guys harass me.

没错。

Exactly.

这些视频确实很受欢迎。

So, they are very popular.

但有个问题，很多观众，尤其是家长，原本觉得花时间听这些内容很值得，现在却发现自己无意中看到了不想看的内容。

But there was a problem, which was that a lot of people, specifically parents who felt that they had this time well spent, now they started seeing these videos in there that they didn't want to see there.

于是他们觉得，自己花的时间不值了。

So, they felt that their time well spent was going down.

于是我们面临一个抉择：视频确实能提升互动，但这些人觉得这浪费了他们本该好好利用的时间。

And then we were faced with a decision like video is good for engagement, but these people feel that it's not good for their time well spent.

所以我们做了一个反向互动的决定——允许任何人，不管是不是家长，都可以关闭视频，只听音频。

So we made the decision, sort of the anti engagement decision, to allow people, anyone, to turn off video if they want and just listen.

不只是为孩子，也为他们自己。

Not just for their kids, but for themselves.

这可能会导致我们在这部分用户的互动数据上有所损失。

And that may mean that we take some engagement hit on that person.

如果你定了这样的原则，就得坚持下去，而它必然带来一些后果。

So if you're going to have these principles, you kind of have to live with them and they're going to have consequences.

不过我们依然认为这是个非常明智的商业决定，因为我们的收入几乎90%都来自订阅用户对体验的付费。

Now we still think this is very good business because most of our revenue is from subscribers paying for their experience, like almost 90% of the revenue.

我觉得，当你每个月用钱包投票的时候，你付的钱不是为了互动时长或停留时间。

And I think that what you pay for when you vote with your wallet every month, you're not going to pay for your engagement or time spent.

你付的是你感受到的价值，对吧？

You're going to pay for the value you feel, right?

如果你觉得这段时间花得值，觉得内容很有价值，你自然愿意为此付费。

If you feel that this was time well spent, if you feel that this was high value, you're going to say: want to pay for this.

所以我觉得，当你用自己的钱买单时，这和真正为用户创造良好体验是高度一致的。

So I think when you pay with your own money, that is very, very well aligned with optimizing food as good for the user.

而在广告驱动的模式里，你的目标很明确：不惜一切代价延长用户停留时间。

Whereas in advertising a based model, your incentives are clearly to maximize time spent at any cost.

对我们来说，这其实是一种幸运，因为大部分收入来自订阅，所以我们没有那种压力。

So I think it's a luxury for us because most of our revenue comes from subscription to not have that pressure.

也许我们只是碰巧选对了这个商业模式。

Maybe we lucked into that business model.

也许我们当初是有意这么做的。

Maybe we're somewhat deliberate.

这正是我想问你的。

That's what I was going ask you.

你当初选订阅模式时，根本不可能预见到这一点，但因为你最早的产品是音乐，所以必须是订阅制。

There's no way you could have predicted that when you chose subscription model, but it had to be a subscription model based on your very first product, which is music.

是的。

Yes.

既然我们看清了这一点，现在正加大投入。

So now that we see it, we're doubling down on it.

我认为这对Spotify来说会是一个正确的选择。

And I think it's going to be the right bet for Spotify.

我觉得人们越来越意识到，自己的时间正被不断攫取，而对生活的掌控却越来越少。

I think people are getting more and more aware of how other time is getting captured and how they have less and less control over their life.

顺便说一下，这让我们聊到了AI，现在人人都在谈这个。

This, by the way, leads us into AI, which everyone is talking about.

现在网上对AI有很多负面声音，我能理解。

And, you know, there's a lot of negativity around AI now, which I understand.

而且是有道理的。

And for good reasons.

生成式AI有一个潜力，它可能会成为你见过的最让人上瘾的算法，因为我们现在能对你理解得如此深入。

There is a promise for generative AI to be the most addictive algorithm you have ever heard of because now we can understand you so deeply.

那边确实有黑暗的一面，对吧？

There is potential for darkness over there, right?

但我想表达的是，我们想说的是，它确实有风险，但属于双刃剑技术。

But what I'm trying to say, what we're trying to say is like there is, but it's a dual use technology.

你可以用生成式AI去做别的事情。

You could choose to do something else with generative AI.

所以我们选择的做法，比如，是把算法的控制权还给用户。

And so what we're choosing to do, for example, is to give back users control of the algorithm.

举个例子，你可以这样：嘿，大卫，我们通过大模型和你的听音数据，判断出你是个什么样的人。

So the other thing you can do is, which we're doing, so you can say like, Hey David, here's who we think you are using LLMs and based on audio listening, this is who we think you are musically.

这是我们认为你可能感兴趣的播客。

This is the podcast we think you're interested in.

这些是我们觉得你会喜欢的有声书。

These are the audiobooks that we think you're interested in.

然后我们可以加一个选项，让你说：不对，你猜错了。

Then we can put a box where you can say like, no, you're wrong.

也许我目前就是这样，但这并不是我想成为的样子。

Maybe that's what I do, but it's not what I want to be.

你知道，我想要的远不止这些。

You know, I want much more.

我还想多看一些传记。

I want even more biographies.

我想重新回到古典音乐，这我以前试过。

I want to get back into classical music, which is something I've tried.

但因为我以前听的大多是别的，现在我可以主动说：我想听古典音乐，结果真的就给我推古典音乐了。

But because I listen to mostly so now I can go in and say like, now I want to have classical music and now I get classical music.

我觉得形容生成式AI最好的说法是，计算机终于能听懂英语了。

The best way I think to describe generative AI is that finally computers understand English.

以前只有大约一百万在GitHub上的开发者能和计算机交流。

Like it used to be a small population of about 1,000,000 developers on GitHub who could talk to computers.

现在，我们每个人都可以了。

Now we all can.

所以我认为，消费类公司应该让每个人都能用平实的英语和它们交流。

And so I think consumer companies could and should give everyone access to talk to them in plain English.

比如在Spotify，我们过去有用户研究团队，每次找十位用户，深入了解他们的感受和行为。

So it means that at Spotify, we used to have these user research teams that sat with 10 users trying to understand deeply what they felt and what they did.

然后我们把这十个人的反馈，套用到七亿六千一百万用户身上。

Then we took those 10 users and tried to apply that to seven sixty one million users.

要是能随时和每一位用户——七亿六千一百万人都能——做这种深度的用户调研，会怎么样？

What if you could do that deep user research with every single user, all seven sixty one million of them all the time?

因为你和他们对话，他们也用地道的英语回应，系统就能实时适应他们的需求。

Because you talk to them and they talk back in English, high fidelity, and the experience just adapts to what they want.

所以我现在的目标，是把对算法的控制权还给消费者。

So my mission now is to sort of give back control to consumers over these algorithms.

这听起来有点反主流，但我相信这是正确的方向。

And it's contrarian, but I think it's the right bet.

像你我这样的人，大概都希望拥有更多控制权。

People like you and I will probably want more control.

但你有七亿用户。

But you have 700,000,000 users.

你认为其中有多少比例真的会这么做？

What percentage of them do you actually think?

我觉得大多数人只是希望你替他们搞定一切。

I feel like people just want you to do it for them.

没错，你说得对。

No, you're not wrong.

我觉得世界上几乎所有事情都符合幂律分布，对吧？

I think everything in the world is sort of a power law, right?

不管是听音乐，有些人听一点，有些人却听得非常多。

Whether it's music listening, some people listen a little and then some people listen extremely much.

所有事情都是幂律分布。

Everything is a power law.

但我觉得有趣的是，Spotify在播放列表这方面获得的洞察——比如，有些人特别爱创建播放列表。

But I think what is interesting, what Spotify has gained from, if you look at playlisting, for example, some people playlist a lot.

大多数人只有一个播放列表。

Most people have one playlist.

也许他们喜欢几首歌，或者有两个播放列表，比如一些独立音乐的最爱。

Maybe they like songs, maybe two playlists, you know, some indie favorites.

有些人则有上百个播放列表。

Some people have like hundreds of playlists.

所以，Spotify 一开始能做好个性化推荐，是因为我们拥有大约一百亿个用户创建的播放列表——这些都是人们精心安排的，哪首歌跟哪首歌搭配得更好。

So sort of the story of Spotify and why we got good at personalization and recommendation in the first place was that we had like, I don't know, 10,000,000,000 user playlists, which is people carefully saying this track goes well with this track goes well with this track.

这是一个极其宝贵的数据集。

It's an incredibly valuable data set.

但你说得对，这个数据分布非常不均衡。

But to your point, it was heavily skewed.

真正付出大量劳动的，是少数人，不是几百万，更不是几亿，但正是他们做的这些工作，让其他人受益。

It was a few views, not a few millions, but not hundreds of millions that did a lot of work that benefited the others.

那些明确指出哪些歌该放在一起的人，帮助了那些对音乐没那么热衷、跟不上新歌或老歌库的人。

Those people saying these texts go well together meant that the others who weren't that into music, didn't keep up with the new releases or the back catalog.

他们从这些人的努力中获得了超棒的推荐。

They got amazing recommendations from the work of these people.

我觉得这里也会是同样的情况。

And so I think that's going to be true here as well.

事实上，这已经是真的了。

And in fact, know it is true.

我们看到有些人特别活跃，经常跟Spotify反馈：不对，这个不对。

We see some people engaging a lot, talking to Spotify all the time saying that, No, that's wrong.

这个推荐太差了。

That's bad.

应该像这样才对。

It should be like this.

他们在做大量的工作。

They're doing a lot of work.

他们在让自己的Spotify变得更好。

They're making their Spotify better for themselves.

但我们知道，还有另一些人，虽然看起来和他们很像，却没时间也没精力做这些事，他们其实也想要同样的东西。

But then we know that someone else who looks very similar to that, but doesn't have the time or knowledge to do all of that, they actually probably want the same thing.

而他们也能从别人的成果中受益。

And they can benefit from the other one.

所以他们能享受到别人做的东西。

So they benefit from the others.

我想到一个类比，因为大家都说：‘哦，每个人都会自己动手打造一切想要的东西。’

The analogy I had, because everybody's like, Oh, you know, everybody's going be building everything they want.

但其实别以为他们真会自己去开发。

Was like, don't think they're going to build it.

你觉得这个类比是不是有点傻？

Tell me if this is a stupid analogy.

我想听听你个人的看法。

I'm curious of your personal opinion on this.

但你想想，发一条社交媒体动态有多简单？

But if you even look at how easy is it to post to social media?

你发张照片，或者点两个按钮，事情就完了。

You you put a picture or, like, two buttons and you're done.

进步多了。

Improved.

其实百分之九十的成效，来自百分之一的努力。

And it's something like, you know, 90% comes from 1%

哦，不会吧。

Oh, no.

接下来那百分之十的人会稍微动一动，但剩下的百分之八十五到九十，根本就只是旁观。

And then you have the next 10% do oh, and then, like, 90 85 or 90% just lurk.

他们啥也不干。

They do nothing.

没错，就是这样。

But Exactly.

我觉得这恰恰反映了人性——百分之九十的人根本不会去创造什么。

I feel like that's a good representation of humanity where 90% are not going build anything.

有个著名的‘一九九零’法则，对吧？

There's this famous one nine ninety, right?

1% 创造，9% 筛选，90% 只是消费。

1% creates, 9% curates, and 90% consumes.

明白了。

Okay.

对吧？

Right?

差不多就是这个意思。

Something like that.

我觉得这基本是对的。

And I think that's largely true.

我所说的幂律，指的就是这个。

That's what I mean with the power law.

但正如我所说，那1%的创造者和9%的筛选者，对那90%的消费者来说，价值巨大。

But as I said, that 1% that creates and that 9% that curates, they can be incredibly valuable for the other 90% that consumes.

它还能帮你为他们做这些，我觉得这正是大多数人真正想要的。

And then it allows you to do it for them, which I think is what most humans want.

Deal 的核心，在于让顶尖创始人把全世界变成自己的人才库。

Deal is how the best founders turn the world into their talent pool.

我花了十年时间研究历史上最杰出的创始人们是如何运作的。

I've been studying how history's greatest founders operate for a decade.

他们有一个共同点：都明白，招到最顶尖的人才，是你最重要的任务。

And one thing they all have in common is they understand that recruiting and hiring the very best talent is your most important priority.

A 级人才能认出其他 A 级人才，所以像 Ramp、Shopify、Eleven Labs、Uber 和 DoorDash 这样的顶级公司，都在用 Deal。

A players recognize other a players, which is why top companies like Ramp, Shopify, Eleven Labs, Uber, and DoorDash all use Deal.

我认识的很多顶尖创始人，在亲自使用过他们的产品后，都自己掏钱投资了 Deal。

Many of the top founders I know have personally invested in Deal after using their product.

他们发现，Deal 是全球在构建跨国招聘基础设施方面最出色的公司。

And what they discovered is that Deal is the best company in the world at building infrastructure for global hiring.

Deal 能帮你在全球任何地方招聘、支付和管理员工，让你无论在哪里都能留住顶尖人才，把更多时间花在真正重要的事上——为客户提供价值。

Deal will help your business hire, pay, and manage any worker anywhere in the world so you can retain the best talent anywhere and spend the rest of your time focusing on what you do best, delivering value to your customers.

Eleven Labs 的创始人对 Deal 能给企业带来的价值有一个特别贴切的描述。

The founder of Eleven Labs has a great description of the value Deal can give your company.

他说，我们打造 Eleven Labs 的初衷，就是打破语言和沟通的障碍。有了 Deal，我们能在任何地方招聘并支持顶尖人才，从而加速创新，让更多的声音、故事和想法传遍世界的每个角落。

He said, we built Eleven Labs to break down language and communication barriers With Deal enabling us to hire and support exceptional talent anywhere, we can accelerate our innovation and bring more voices, stories, and ideas to every corner of the world.

已有超过四万家企业信赖 Deal。

Deal is trusted by over 40,000 businesses.

想了解它如何帮助你的企业？快去 deal.com/senra 看看。

Learn how they can help your business today by going to deal.com/senra.

就是 deal.com/senra。

That is deal.com/senra.

我觉得这里有些背景信息大家需要了解一下。

There's some context I think people need here.

我去年的 Spotify 年度回顾里，听最多的播客是《Spotify，一个产品故事》，那个就是你配音的。

So the fourth most listened to on my Spotify wrap for podcast was Spotify, a product story, which you narrated.

那期节目是 2023 年 2 月发布的。

That came out in 02/2123.

是的。

Yes.

差不多就是那样。

Something like that.

花了好几年时间。

Over a couple of years.

那时候发布的。

Came out there.

很久以前了。

Long time ago.

它讲的是这段历史，我每次跟创业者聊的时候都会提到这一点。

And it tells the history, which I think more company I I tell I talk to founders about this all the time.

因为你可以直接讲自己公司的故事，然后采访当时在场的人，比如肖恩·帕克、丹尼尔·X，哪怕他们只待了几年，只要发挥过作用就都包括进来。

Because, like, you essentially is like, why don't we just tell our own company history and then you interview the people that were there at the time, like Sean Parker's in there, Daniel X there, people that played a role even if they only played a role for a few years.

对。

Yeah.

但有意思的是，2021年甚至2022年的时候，就已经有整集节目专门讲你们在Spotify怎么用AI了。

But the crazy thing is you have entire episodes, I think, from 2021 or 2022 dedicated to how you're using AI in Spotify way before.

你知道，AI这话题人们聊了六十年，可那时候讨论的人比现在还少得多。

You know, people have been talking about AI for sixty years, but even back then, way less people are talking about it now.

你能不能说说，从2021、2022年那时候在Spotify看AI，到现在有什么不一样？

Tell me the difference of how you view AI back then in 2021, 2022 to Spotify to today.

是的，我从小就对AI感兴趣，后来上大学当了工程师，那会儿已经是九十年代末了。

Yeah, so my interest in AI, I think as many you know, I was always interested in growing up and then I became an engineer and so on in university, which was like in the late nineties.

对，我一直对这个很着迷。

Yeah, I was interested in it.

那时候还没什么网络，但你还是能做点东西。

There were no networks back then, but you can do anything.

电脑的性能根本不够用。

Computers were not powerful enough.

后来我就进了当时叫IT的领域。

And then I went into what was called IT, right?

我后来创办了自己的公司，然后创立了Spotify。

And I did my own companies and I started Spotify.

当我加入Spotify时，我们已经拥有大量音乐播放列表的数据了。

And then when I came to Spotify, we already had one of these large data sets of music playlists.

当时那里有一群非常出色的人，特别是一个叫埃里克·伯纳德森的家伙，那是2009年，他正在用机器学习做协同过滤，处理当时世界上最大的Hadoop集群数据。

And so there were some very talented people there, specifically a guy named Erik Bernadson, who at the time, this is 2009, was doing machine learning, something called collaborative filtering on what was the world's largest Hadoop clusters.

我觉得这太厉害了。

I'm like, this is super cool.

这么庞大的数据量，这么复杂的算法，我其实早就一直在想这些问题。

Like this scale of data and these algorithms, I been thinking about it for a long time.

这让我深受启发，重新投入了这个领域。

So I got very inspired by that, kind of got back into it.

后来，DeepMind开始搞基于强化学习的东西。

And then what happened was DeepMind started doing these reinforcement learning based things.

他们搞了个叫DeepQ网络的系统，还记得吗？那时候它开始赢 Atari 游戏了。

They had this thing called the DeepQ Network that started beating Atari games, if you remember that.

那时候看起来就像个玩具，所有东西刚出来的时候都这样。

And it looked like a toy back then, like everything does.

但我早就开始琢磨一个问题：从哲学角度看，人到底是怎么思考的。

But I so pilled already on the idea of how do we actually work as humans from a philosophical point of view.

我找不到满意的答案。

I didn't have a good answer.

当时谁也说不清楚。

No one did.

但我有个想法，也许人的思维本质上是可计算的，因为人工神经元的模型给了我启发。

But I had this idea that maybe it is computational because it was the model of the artificial neuron.

但在90年代，要相信这个想法很难，那时候还没有DeepMind的DeepQ网络，也没有Dennis Hassabis和David Silver这些人，后来他们团队一步步把系统做得越来越复杂，处理的问题也越来越难。

But it was hard to believe in the 90s with these deep Q networks from Dennis Asabis and David Silver and the whole DeepMind team, you could see the scaling of like it's handling more and more complex problems.

于是我彻底陷进去了。

So I got very deep into that.

我回家后重新开始写代码，自己捣鼓循环神经网络、LSTM、GRU这些玩意儿，纯粹是出于兴趣，就在假期、晚上和空闲时间做着玩。

I went home and I started coding again and I did my own sort of recurrent neural networks and LSTM and GRUs and stuff just for fun, you know, during my vacations and evenings and nights.

我们当时还在继续做推荐系统的问题，那种老派的人工智能，那时候叫机器学习。

And we kept doing our recommendations problem, which was sort of old school AI, which was called ML machine learning.

但到了2017年6月左右，一篇叫《Attention Is All You Need》的Transformer论文出来了。

But then when what is called the Transformer paper came out in, I think, June 2017, it was a paper called Attention is All You Need.

我大概是在那几天读到的，看完简直被震撼到了。

I think I read it like in the first few days and I was completely blown away by it.

我立刻跟任何愿意听的人聊这个东西。

And I started talking to anyone who wanted to listen.

我那时候其实已经准备好迎接这种变化了。

So I was just primed for that happening.

于是我们开始大力投入这个方向。

So then we started investing quite aggressively towards this.

如果你把这条指数曲线往外推，真的相信它，就像我多次验证过的那样，终有一天，计算机能用推理跟你对话，你也能跟计算机这样交流。

I think, if you extrapolate it out, if you really believe in that exponential curve, which I've tested a few times, then eventually computers would be able to start talking to you in Reason and you would be able to talk to computers.

我们很早就开始为这一天做准备了。

We started preparing for that quite early.

我们收购了一家叫Sonantic的公司，就是为了能自己生成语音。

We bought this company called Sonantic to be able to produce voice.

现在网上随便都能买到语音服务，但每分钟的费用高得吓人。

I mean, you can buy voice anywhere on the internet today, but it's quite expensive per minute.

如果你要给七亿用户每人每天提供几分钟的语音，迟早得破产。

So if you want to serve 700,000,000 users with like a few minutes of voice per day, you're going to go bankrupt.

我们收购的这家公司用的是另一种技术，能把语音做得非常便宜，甚至在大语言模型还没法生成优质脚本之前，我们就已经这么做了。

We bought this company producing voice very, very cheaply with a different technology, even before the LLMs were smart enough to produce the script for that voice.

因为我们选择提前介入这条曲线，而不是等它成熟了再动手。

Because we just bet on intercepting that curve instead of waiting for it and then building for it.

我觉得这既源于我个人对AI的浓厚兴趣，也有一点运气成分——正好在Spotify这样的公司，能接触到海量数据。

So I think it comes from a personal interest in AI and then a bit of luck being at a place like Spotify that had access to lots of data.

一旦你看到了机会，就得下注。

And then when you see it, just have to bet on it.

而这份兴趣，纯粹是我个人的。

And I think the interest is a personal interest.

Spotify 算是我接近人工智能哲学层面、思考人性本质的一个借口。

Spotify is sort of my excuse to get as close as possible to the philosophical side of AI and sort of what it means to be a human.

你再详细说说这个。

Say more about that.

人这一辈子，我小时候就经常想很多事。

Well, I think, you know, you go through life and I was thinking a lot as a kid about things.

有几件事让我一听说就彻底懵了。

There a few problems really dumbfounded me when I learned about them.

其中一件事是这样的概念。

One was this notion.

我不记得具体是什么时候了，但有人跟我说，你身体里的原子，99% 每七年就全换一遍。

I don't remember exactly when, but someone told me, you know, all the atoms in your body or like 99% of them get switched out every seven years.

是啊。

I'm like, yeah.

等等，什么意思？

Wait, what?

每七年一次？

Every seven years?

你这话是什么意思？

What do you mean?

我说，对啊，每七年所有原子就全换一遍。

I say, yeah, every seven years they're all switched out.

那意味着我不是原来那个人了。

But that means I'm not the same person.

我一直以为，我就是我的那些原子。

So I thought I was my atoms.

我以为我就是我的身体。

I thought it was my body.

明明现在站在这儿的是我，可你告诉我七年之后我就变成另一个人了，那我到底是谁？

Clearly this is me and you're telling me I see you in seven years and I'm someone else, so then what am I?

如果我不是这些原子，那我究竟是什么？

If I'm not my atoms, what am I?

你知道吗，你看一块石头，它就是由它的原子组成的。

You know, if you look at a rock, it is its atoms.

你看看它，七年后再回来，还是同样的原子。

You look at it, you come back seven years later, same atoms.

但你和我就不一样了，首先，大多数原子根本不会被销毁或创造，对吧？

But in you and I, like your atoms may have been, first of all, most atoms never get destroyed or created, right?

它们基本上保持不变。

They're largely the same.

所以你的身体里可能有一堆拿破仑的原子之类的。

So you may have a bunch of Napoleon atoms in your body or something.

等你去世了，这些原子就会跑到别人身上，对吧？

When you die, it's going to go to someone else, right?

所以你其实只是这些原子在某一刻的排列组合，时间非常短暂，对吧？

So it's just the construction of those atoms that is you for like a very brief time, right?

于是我明白了，你不是你的原子，你只是原子的结构。

So I got to that realization that you're not your atoms, you're the structure of your atoms.

而结构的另一个说法就是信息。

And another word for structure is information.

所以我就想，好吧，那这就是DNA了。

So then I'm like, okay, so it's a DNA.

DNA是蓝图，你把原子以某种方式排列，那就是你。

DNA is the blueprint and you arranged the atoms in a certain way and that's you.

后来有人说了，这也不对，因为如果你长时间思考某件事，比如长期弹钢琴，或者反复形成某种思维模式，你的大脑真的会变化。

And then someone said, no, that's not related either because if you think about something for a long time, if you play the piano for a long time, if you think certain patterns, your brain will grow.

你的音乐中枢会变得特别发达。

You're going get an overdeveloped musical center.

如果你擅长语言，你的语言中枢也会发育得更好，最典型的例子就是英国的出租车司机。

If you're good at languages, your language center developers Or the most famous example are cabbies in The UK.

他们得把整座城市的路线都记在脑子里。

You know, they have to learn all along them by heart.

当你对他们进行脑部扫描时，会发现他们的三维空间思维区域特别发达。

And when you brain scan them, they have a very overdeveloped three d center for three-dimensional thinking.

所以很明显，这不是静止不变的。

So clearly, it's not static.

你思考的内容会重新排列这些原子，形成新的模式，而且连原子本身都不是原来的那些了。

What you think about moves those atoms around in new patterns and it's not even the same atoms.

随着时间推移，原子都会被替换掉。

The atoms get switched out over time.

所以你根本不是那些原子组成的。

So now you're not your atoms.

你甚至也不是原子的结构。

You're not even the structure of the atoms.

你真正就是你的想法。

You literally are your thoughts.

字面意义上的。

Literally.

不是打个比方。

Not as an analogy.

这才是唯一不变的东西。

It's the only thing that is constant.

它就是信息处理的模式。

It's the processing information pattern.

对吧？

Right?

所有负责处理的原子都会被替换掉。

Everything like the atoms that do the processing gets switched out.

所以我现在就想，天啊，我其实就是个信息处理的过程。

So now I'm like, okay, shit, I'm information processing.

这真有点颠覆三观。

And that was kind of a mind fuck.

后来我就慢慢接受了，因为我想，既然我是信息处理，那我其实可以永生——只要我的思维方式还在。

Then I got comfortable with it because I'm like, well, now I can sort of live forever because if I'm information processing, I'm thinking in certain ways.

这才是真正的我。

That's really what I am.

你完全可以拿别的原子来复刻出我。

You could have instantiated me with some other atoms, etc.

如果我把这些特质传给我的孩子，他们也以类似的方式思考，那就有32%的我还在他们身上延续，因为我的本质就是我的想法。

Then if I bring some of that into my kids, if they're thinking a little bit in the same way, like 32% of me is still living in them because I am my thoughts.

然后我把这些想法传递下去。

And then I transfer my thoughts.

如果你说，干脆把这些想法移植到电脑里，那不就等于永生了？因为你就是你的思想。

And, you know, if you're a curse while you say like, well, now transfer them to computer and you get to live forever because you are your thoughts.

只要这些信息处理的模式在电脑里继续存在，那才是真正的你。

And if that information processing lives there, that was really you.

你并不是那些原子构成的肉体。

You were not your atoms.

所以，我们很可能本质上就是计算型生命体，是信息的处理者——这正是我当初投身人工智能的根源。

So this whole thing of like, we probably are computational beings, information processing, I think it's what got me into AI in the first place.

后来上大学的时候

Then at university

差不多二十年前了。

Almost two decades ago.

还不止呢。

More than that.

九十年代末上大学的时候，这东西根本派不上用场。

In university in the late 90s, you couldn't do anything with it.

当时的电脑性能根本不够用。

The computers were not powerful enough.

你要是真去实现这些想法，弄个只有几个节点的神经网络，跑起来慢得像蜗牛，根本没什么看头。

So when you try to instantiate those ideas, you built a neural network with like a few nodes and it slowed their crawl and it was unimpressive.

你心里就会想，这不可能是全部真相。

And you're like, no, that can't be it.

明白了。

Okay.

这挺有意思的。

So this is interesting.

所以你已经思考这个问题很多年了。

So you've been thinking about this for multiple decades.

你得等到一系列有利的条件同时出现，才有了今天的结果——我想你们现在是全球第二大订阅平台，仅次于Netflix。

You had you had to have this, like, favorable occurrence of events that now lead you to have I think you guys are the second largest subscriber base in the world behind Netflix.

我这么说对吗？

I correct?

对。

Yes.

你们现在拥有海量的数据。

And you have this huge data set.

如今技术终于追上了你大学时就一直在想的那些想法。

Now the technology can catch up with the thing you've been thinking about since you're in college.

是的。

Yeah.

这正好让我能整天沉浸在这些研究里，和业内最顶尖的人一起工作。

It's a good excuse to get to spend all my day thinking about learning about these things, working with the best people in the business.

我挺幸运的，能接触到这些正在改变世界的人。

You know, I have the fortune of meeting all of these people that are changing the world.

我可以和他们见面、聊天，问一些有趣又傻乎乎的问题。

I get to meet them and talk to them and ask my interesting, stupid questions about things.

能做自己热爱的事，本身就是一种福气。

So it's just a fortunate position to be in to get to do something that you're passionate about.

我觉得自己特别幸运，因为不仅能做这件事，还能在对世界有益的领域里做，有机会引导AI朝着更好的方向发展，比如把控制权还给用户。

But I feel very lucky because I can do that, but I can do it in an area where I think it's still good for the world and I can have impact on I can steer this towards what I think is a good outcome of AI, like giving back user control, for example.

我不想跳过这一点，因为我真的觉得我们已经私下聊得够多了。

I don't want to skip over that because I truly believe we've had enough private conversations.

我知道你跟其他大公司做产品的人也都谈过这些。

I know you talked to all the other people designing products with all the big companies.

我们以前也私下讨论过这些。

We talked about this privately in the past.

确实，有些人已经做了决定，他们知道自己是在做优化。

It's just like, yes, some of them, you know, have made decisions where they know they have optimized.

他们说：嘿，我们做了个测试。

They're like, hey, we ran this test.

这个对用户参与度特别好。

This is great for engagement.

但对心理健康伤害太大了。

It's terrible for the mental health.

他们还说：那就上吧。

And they're like, push it.

这在我眼里简直疯了。

That's insane to me.

真的太疯狂了。

That is insane.

这正是我们录之前聊的事。

This is what we were talking about before we started recording.

我跟你说过，听起来可能有点傻，但我真心希望史蒂夫·乔布斯还活着，毕竟我真的很热爱科技。

Was like, I told you, it sounds silly, but like, I deeply desire a world in which Steve Jobs is still alive because I obviously love technology.

但我希望那些开发我们所有人都在使用的科技产品的人，能真正去打造一些工具——毕竟技术就是工具，应该用来提升人类，而不是取代我们、让我们变笨、变胖，或者让人整天陷在手机里，变得抑郁，而我觉得现在这种情况太多了。

But I want the people building the technology that we all use on the scale that we all use it at to like build tools, and that's all technology is, that enhance humanity instead of trying to replace it or to make you dumber or fatter or just sucked into your phone and depressed, which I feel is a lot of what's going on now.

没错。

Yeah.

这让我想起你之前说的，比如播客，现在它发展得这么快，只要听的是对的内容，其实是对世界有好处的，当然你得听大卫·桑德拉和《创始人》这类节目。

Which is, I think, what you said earlier was like, well, podcasts, we have this thing growing massively that's good for the world, assuming you're listening to the right podcast and you should be listening to David Sondra and Founders, of course.

可与此同时，这些人却在不停地刷着十五秒、二十秒，甚至五秒、一秒的短视频，把脑子都刷坏了。

At the same time, when these people are like destroying their brains in fifteen, twenty second, you know, five second, one second scrolling.

你刚才提到这点时，我突然想起来，你可以回头去看看杰夫·贝佐斯给股东的信。

And it reminded me when you said that earlier, was like, oh, you go back and read Jeff Bezos' shareholder letters.

他解释过自己为什么要发明Kindle。

He talks about why he invented the Kindle.

他说，Kindle就是为了对抗注意力越来越短的问题。

He said the Kindle was an anecdote to short attention spans.

他担心人们以后再也不读书了。

He was worried that people weren't going to read anymore.

顺便说一句，我对Kindle这个产品印象深刻。

I'm deeply impressed by the Kindle, by the way, as a product.

这不仅仅是技术上的创新，比如那种低功耗屏幕之类的。

And it's not just the technology, like the passive screens and so forth.

很多人没注意到的是，他们在商业模式上的突破——WhisperSync功能，后台自动同步，因为他们提前买好了移动数据流量。

What people miss is the business model innovation they did, the WhisperSync, where it silently just updates in the background because they bought a certain amount of mobile data.

这确实是个很棒的产品。

It's a great product.

你能说说Kindle在商业模式上的创新吗？

Explain the business model innovation on the Kindle.

通常来说，你得自己花钱买流量。

Well, normally you would have to pay for data.

如果他们偷懒的话，本来完全可以这么说：这是Kindle，你自己去办个每月的移动套餐来更新电子书吧。

If you would have been lazy, which they weren't, you would have said like, Here's a Kindle.

但他们没有这么做。

Now go and buy a mobile subscription monthly for that, for the bookstore update.

他们跟这些运营商签了协议。

And what they did was they signed deals with these carriers.

他们算出了平均每本书的大小，然后谈成了一笔固定费用的交易，所有数据流量都永久包含在硬件价格里了。

They calculated the average book size and they made a fixed cost deal where all the data sort of forever was included in the price of the hardware.

你一次性买下它，它就会自动悄悄更新。

You bought this thing for a one time cost and it just magically updates.

那时候，这简直像魔法一样。

At the time, that was magic.

在产品创新之外，他们还在商业模式上做了出色的创新，这正是我特别热衷的。

There was good business model innovation on top of all the product innovation, which is something I'm very passionate about.

我相信，技术是变革的必要条件，但不是充分条件。

I believe that technology is a necessary ingredient for change, but not sufficient.

你可以用技术制造混乱，比如盗版。

I think you can cause havoc with technology like piracy.

但真正带来巨变的时候，是你把一项新技术和一种新颖的、常常是反常规的商业模式结合起来的时候。

But when things really change is when you take a new technology and marry it with a new, often contrarian business model.

这就像Spotify所体现的访问权与所有权之争。

This is the Spotify story of access versus ownership, for example.

顺便说一句，我也希望史蒂夫·乔布斯还在世，但不是因为——你知道的，他以前多次想置我们于死地。

Which is, by the way, why I would also love Steve Jobs to be around, but also not because you know, he tried to kill us many times.

这挺有意思的。

It's funny.

我们之前就聊过这个话题。

We had this conversation.

我们 earlier 曾请来吉米·艾维做客节目。

So we had Jimmy Ivean on the show earlier.

吉米是我这辈子最想见到的三个人之一，因为我特别喜欢那部关于他和德雷的纪录片《反叛者》。

And, you know, Jimmy was in, like, top three people I wanted to meet of all time because I love Defiant Ones, the documentary of him and doctor Dre.

是的。

Yeah.

我看了那部片子，估计都快十遍了。

And I've watched it, I don't know, now 10 times or something.