本集简介
双语字幕
仅展示文本字幕，不包含中文音频；想边听边看，请使用 Bayt 播客 App。
我想从你昨晚告诉我的话开始，你说过，为你自己打造产品的最好方式，就是你自己就是真正的用户。
I wanna start with what you told me last night, that you feel the best way to make a product or the best way to make a product for you is by you are the actual customer.
你正在制作你自己想用的产品。
You are making the products that you want to use.
是的。
Yeah.
我不知道还能用别的方法来做。
I don't know how to do it any other way.
这就是我一直以来的做法。
Like, this is how I've always done it.
所以当我15、16岁的时候，我刚开始接触软件，做了一些东西，比如FileMaker Pro，那是在很早以前，你可以为自己创建数据库。
So back when I was 15, 16, I started in software, making stuff, actually something called FileMaker Pro, which is like way back when you can make these databases for yourself.
我做了一个数据库来追踪我的音乐收藏，因为我经常把磁带和CD借给朋友，却总是收不回来。
And I made this database to keep track of my music collection because I was loaning out tapes and CDs to friends and never getting them back.
所以我心想，我需要一种方法来追踪这些东西，因为我老是丢掉它们。
So I'm like, I need a way to keep track of this stuff because I keep losing these things.
So I made this product, which I eventually called AudioFile, but I made it for myself.
So I made this product, which I eventually called AudioFile, but I made it for myself.
It was just this database, right?
It was just this database, right?
And I made a nice interface because I liked art, I liked making stuff.
And I made a nice interface because I liked art, I liked making stuff.
And so I made this thing.
And so I made this thing.
And I eventually just decided that, like, I'll put a little text file in archive of the software that said, If you like this, send me $20.
And I eventually just decided that, like, I'll put a little text file in archive of the software that said, If you like this, send me $20.
And I put up on AOL.
And I put up on AOL.
So it's like pre internet, right?
So it's like pre internet, right?
Put up on AOL, and I got this envelope, actually an Airmail envelope.
Put up on AOL, and I got this envelope, actually an Airmail envelope.
那种有红蓝勾勾的老式信封，来自德国。
One of those with like the red and blue check marks, like old school like envelope from And it's from Germany.
我打开后，发现有人打印了我随软件附上的那张纸，并给了我一张崭新的20美元钞票。
And I opened it up and somebody printed out this piece of paper, which was the thing I included with the software and gave me a $20 crisp U.
美元。
S.
钞票，对吧？
Bill, right?
那一刻，我觉得我彻底明白了：为自己做东西。
And that was the moment I think it all clicked for me, which is make stuff for yourself.
很可能还有其他人和你一样，想要你想要的东西，那就把它做出来卖吧。
There's probably other people out there like you who want what you want and make it available to sell.
所以你就是客户，你就是受众。
So you are the customer, you are the audience.
就是你，你，你。
It's you, you, you.
然后还会有很多和你一样的人。
And then there'll be other people just like you.
我们并没有那么独特。
We're not all that unique.
有很多人喜欢我们喜欢的东西，也有很多人不喜欢，而且也有 plenty 的产品针对他们。
There's plenty of people who like what we like, plenty of people who don't, and there's plenty of products for them too.
但足够多的人喜欢你所喜欢的东西。
But there's enough that like what you like.
所以我就从这里开始了。
And so that's where I got started.
是的，你有一个有趣的观点，就是如果你只是在做自己想要的东西，那没关系。
Yeah, you have this interesting idea where if you're just making what you want, right, it doesn't matter.
你只需要去找到更多喜欢你所喜欢事物的人，然后忽略那些不喜欢的人。
You just have to go and collect more people that like the things that you like and kind of ignore the people that don't.
是的。
Yes.
And this is all tied into, like, keeping your costs low.
And this is all tied into, like, keeping your costs low.
So, you know, if you have a lot of costs, high cost, big company, you have to find a lot of people like you.
So, you know, if you have a lot of costs, high cost, big company, you have to find a lot of people like you.
But if you keep your costs low, keep your company small.
But if you keep your costs low, keep your company small.
At the time, it was just me, you know, when I was doing the software thing.
At the time, it was just me, you know, when I was doing the software thing.
And I was making like, I don't know, dollars $20 a year, like, selling software as a solo person when I was 16 years old or something like that, or 17, then I went to college a little bit as well.
And I was making like, I don't know, dollars $20 a year, like, selling software as a solo person when I was 16 years old or something like that, or 17, then I went to college a little bit as well.
And it's like, that's an amazing little small side business, a huge side business when you're that age, right?
And it's like, that's an amazing little small side business, a huge side business when you're that age, right?
Because I had no expenses.
Because I had no expenses.
And so it's easy.
And so it's easy.
I only had to find like, you know, a few thousand people to pay me that money, 20, right, to get that eventually.
I only had to find like, you know, a few thousand people to pay me that money, 20, right, to get that eventually.
But if I had a big business and had a lot of people, a lot
But if I had a big business and had a lot of people, a lot
of overhead, I'd have to
of overhead, I'd have to
find a lot of people like me, and that's harder.
find a lot of people like me, and that's harder.
So the whole game for me is to make things as simple as possible, as easy for me as possible.
So the whole game for me is to make things as simple as possible, as easy for me as possible.
So keep your costs low, keep your company as small as you possibly can, and make great stuff.
So keep your costs low, keep your company as small as you possibly can, and make great stuff.
And then you don't have to find as many people just like you, but the ones you find who really love what you do.
And then you don't have to find as many people just like you, but the ones you find who really love what you do.
And that's like, that's enough.
And that's like, that's enough.
就是这样，已经够了。
Like, that is enough.
你可以就此停步，继续做你的事，但在理念上你可以停下来想：我要为自己、为和我类似的人做东西。
You can stop there, keep doing stuff, but you can kind of stop there conceptually and go, I'm going to make stuff for me, people like me.
我不需要全世界都喜欢我所喜欢的东西。
I don't need the whole world to like what I like.
我只需要一小群人喜欢我所喜欢的东西，那就足够了。
I need, like, enough of a small world to like what I like, and we're golden.
你用一种非常有趣的方式表达了这一点。
You put it in a very interesting way.
你说你真正的竞争对手是你的成本。
You said your real competition is your costs.
这句话是你常说的吗？
Is that the line that you have?
是的。
Yeah.
这是你唯一的竞争对手。
It's your only competition.
解释一下。
Explain that.
嗯，生意其实很简单。
Well, like, a business is very simple.
你得赚得比花的多。
You got to make more than you spend.
基本上，这就是生意。
That's a business, basically.
我的意思是，你可以一直借钱，然后借得比花的多，但最终你还是得赚得比花的多。
Like, I mean, you can keep borrowing money and then you can, you know, borrow more than you spend and eventually you've got to make more than you spend.
所以，如果你赚得比花的多，那么你的竞争对手就是成本。
So if you're making more than you spend, then your competition is your cost.
你真正要对抗的，就是维持生意运转需要花多少钱。
And that's what you're really in business against, is how much it costs you to stay in business.
It's not all the other alternatives that are on the market.
It's not all the other alternatives that are on the market.
Of course, they exist and they're real, but you can't do anything about them.
Of course, they exist and they're real, but you can't do anything about them.
They're going to do what they're going to do.
They're going to do what they're going to do.
You're going to do what they're you're going to do.
You're going to do what they're you're going to do.
You can't control what they're going
You can't control what they're going
to put out there, what they're going
to put out there, what they're going
to price it at.
to price it at.
All the things they're going to do, they're going to do what they're going to do.
All the things they're going to do, they're going to do what they're going to do.
我能控制的是经营业务的成本以及我销售产品的价格。
What I can control is how much it costs me to run my business, how much I sell my product for.
只要我的收入超过支出，我就能继续经营下去。
And as long as I make more than I spend, I get to stay in business.
这不正是这一切的核心——维持生意吗？
And isn't that what this is all about, staying in business?
因为这就是一切的意义所在，因为我喜欢这个。
Like, that's what it's all about because I like this.
我们都喜欢这个。
We like this.
我想继续做下去。
I want to keep doing this.
如果我不维持生意，就无法继续做下去。
I can't keep doing it if I don't stay in business.
如果我的收入低于生产这些产品所需的成本，我就无法继续做下去。
I can't keep doing it if I make less than it costs me to make the things that I make.
So I'm always thinking about the only competition I really have on an annual basis is to make sure that we make more as a company than it costs us to run the company.
So I'm always thinking about the only competition I really have on an annual basis is to make sure that we make more as a company than it costs us to run the company.
That's my real competition.
That's my real competition.
And this is something I talk about over and over again on my other podcast founders, where it's just like, it is kind of weird how every single one of history's greatest entrepreneurs, they were obsessed about watching their costs from Sam Walton to even Steve Jobs when he first started Apple, Andrew Carnegie, Rockefeller.
And this is something I talk about over and over again on my other podcast founders, where it's just like, it is kind of weird how every single one of history's greatest entrepreneurs, they were obsessed about watching their costs from Sam Walton to even Steve Jobs when he first started Apple, Andrew Carnegie, Rockefeller.
Like, this theme reappears over and over and over again.
Like, this theme reappears over and over and over again.
It's one of the reasons why, you know, my main partners ramp, because they to help companies control their costs.
It's one of the reasons why, you know, my main partners ramp, because they to help companies control their costs.
It's like the perfect alignment for the audience and what these history's greatest entrepreneurs are saying.
It's like the perfect alignment for the audience and what these history's greatest entrepreneurs are saying.
But were talking the other day where it seems very fascinating how you can have a software company that has insane margins and still lose money.
But were talking the other day where it seems very fascinating how you can have a software company that has insane margins and still lose money.
And when I talk to these young founders, I'm like, Just go study the early days of Microsoft.
And when I talk to these young founders, I'm like, Just go study the early days of Microsoft.
这就像比尔·盖茨。
It's like Bill Gates.
其中一个最有趣的故事是，微软最初的30人可能是有史以来最成功、 arguably 最成功的软件公司。
First one of the most interesting stories was that the first 30 is probably the most successful, arguably the most successful software company of all time.
它是第一家在一年内纯软件销售额达到十亿美元的软件公司。
First software company to get to a billion dollars in sales of just pure software in a year.
但微软最初的30名员工包括比尔·盖茨、他的秘书和28名程序员。
But the first 30 employees of Microsoft were Bill Gates, his secretary, and 28 programmers.
根本不是这样。
There's no at all.
臃肿。
Fat.
这是我们经常讨论的话题。
That's something we talk about a lot.
你能谈谈保持低成本、小团队，以及彻底消除任何冗余的重要性吗？
Can you talk about the importance of keeping costs low, small teams, and then you want essentially no fat anywhere?
We have 62 people at 37signals, and we've gotten as high as, I think, 80 at some point, and then we're about 63 or 62 right now, which is or feels really good.
We have 62 people at 37signals, and we've gotten as high as, I think, 80 at some point, and then we're about 63 or 62 right now, which is or feels really good.
But we also built a lot of things when we were much smaller.
But we also built a lot of things when we were much smaller.
We had like 12 people way back in the day or four people way back in the way, way, way days when we started out.
We had like 12 people way back in the day or four people way back in the way, way, way days when we started out.
So I've always been comfortable with small teams.
So I've always been comfortable with small teams.
I think that small teams work better, are better.
I think that small teams work better, are better.
There's fewer, there's less room for miscommunication, because I don't think companies really have communication problems.
There's fewer, there's less room for miscommunication, because I don't think companies really have communication problems.
They have miscommunication problems.
They have miscommunication problems.
Like, when you have too many people and too many layers and someone misses this and someone has to repeat something that happened, like, I want to avoid all of that and get rid of all the things that get in the way of making good stuff.
Like, when you have too many people and too many layers and someone misses this and someone has to repeat something that happened, like, I want to avoid all of that and get rid of all the things that get in the way of making good stuff.
And I actually think too many people get in the way oftentimes, and you actually end up making worse stuff the more people who are involved.
And I actually think too many people get in the way oftentimes, and you actually end up making worse stuff the more people who are involved.
So we just try to keep the team small.
So we just try to keep the team small.
Any team we have making something is usually two people, like two people working on a feature.
Any team we have making something is usually two people, like two people working on a feature.
One programmer, one designer.
One programmer, one designer.
That's pretty much it.
That's pretty much it.
Sometimes someone else will come in here and there, but for the most part, it's two people.
Sometimes someone else will come in here and there, but for the most part, it's two people.
And it also keeps us honest.
And it also keeps us honest.
It prevents us from making things that we can't make with two people.
It prevents us from making things that we can't make with two people.
所以这能让一切保持紧凑、简洁和清晰。
So it just keeps everything tight and simple and clear.
你不断积累这些理念，最终会得到一个非常紧凑、界面简洁的产品，你能看清整个系统，掌握整个系统，了解它的一切运作方式。
And you just keep parlaying that, keep adding that stuff up, and you end up with a very tight product with a small surface area that's you can see the whole thing, you can hold the whole thing, you know how it all works.
你的客户也能看清整个系统，掌握整个系统，了解它的一切运作方式。
Your customers can see the whole thing and hold the whole thing and know how it works.
而这正是人们真正想要的。
And that's all people want.
人们不想要复杂的东西。
People don't want complicated stuff.
他们不想要充斥着自己从不使用功能的软件。
They don't want software that's full of things they don't use.
人们有时会购买这样的产品，是因为他们被推销了这样的产品。
People will sometimes buy things like that because they're sold things like that.
但归根结底，这并不是他们真正想要的。
But when it really comes down to it, that's not what they actually want.
购买软件的人，也就是购买我们软件的人，正是使用产品的人。
And people who buy software, who buy our software, are the people who use the product.
许多企业软件公司把软件卖给采购方，然后由其他人来使用产品，结果人人都讨厌这些产品。
A lot of enterprise companies sell software to a buyer who then makes other people use the product and everyone hates those products.
但使用我们产品的人就是购买我们产品的人，这是同一批人。
But people who use our products buy our products and that it's the same person.
所以他们在寻找那些真正好用的东西。
So they're looking for stuff that just works really well.
我发现，要做到这一点，最好的办法就是让公司保持小而精。
And I've just found there's no better way to do that than to keep the company small and tight.
这种理念贯穿方方面面。
That goes everywhere.
比如，我们没有任何中层管理。
Like we don't have any middle management.
我们曾经试过一点点。
We tried a little bit.
这就是为什么我们曾经有83个人。
That's why we had 83 people at one point.
我们雇了更多人来组建一个小团队，但后来发现这样并不奏效，就撤回了。
We hired a few more people to build out a little bit of a team and then pulled back from that and go, That wasn't helpful.
你不喜欢那一点？
What did you not like about that?
但高管团队里只有两个人，我和我的商业伙伴大卫。
But there's two people in the executive team, me and David, my business partner.
就这些。
That's it.
我们曾经有一段时间有首席运营官。
We've had a COO for a while.
他挺好的。
They were fine.
他们是不错的人。
They were good people.
We just didn't there wasn't enough work for them, frankly, to do the work.
We just didn't there wasn't enough work for them, frankly, to do the work.
So they were doing things that they didn't really do.
So they were doing things that they didn't really do.
And then when you do stuff you don't really need to do, you feel bad for them, in a sense, because they're wasting their professional life doing things they don't really want to do that doesn't need to get done.
And then when you do stuff you don't really need to do, you feel bad for them, in a sense, because they're wasting their professional life doing things they don't really want to do that doesn't need to get done.
So that doesn't feel good.
So that doesn't feel good.
We've had engineering managers, and we found out again that there was too many levels in between David, who's the CTO, and the people doing the work.
We've had engineering managers, and we found out again that there was too many levels in between David, who's the CTO, and the people doing the work.
He had to talk to someone else who talked to someone else.
He had to talk to someone else who talked to someone else.
And it's like a game of telephone.
And it's like a game of telephone.
Things are lost in translation along the way.
Things are lost in translation along the way.
所以我们试过这些方法。
So you just we tried those things.
我们曾想过，也许这对我们来说是更好的做法。
We had some thoughts that maybe this would be a better thing for us to do.
但结果发现这并不是更好的选择。
And we turned out it turned out not to be a better thing to do.
你们需要多长时间才能意识到？
How long does it take you to realize?
一年。
A year.
基本上是这样。
Basically.
COO的任期更长。
COO roles were longer.
他们做了三年。
They were three years.
我们试了两次。
We tried it twice.
在三十七信号公司，我们通常会给每个人一年时间来证明自己。
For the most part, we give everybody about a year to prove themselves at thirty seven Signals.
所以我们雇用一个人，他们有一年的时间来证明自己，之后我们再决定是否再次聘用。
And so we hire somebody, and they have about a year until we decide if we're going to hire them again.
这就是我对第二年的看法。
That's how I think of the second year.
这是一次重新聘用。
It's a rehire.
这并不是那种我们看数据的绩效评估。
It's not like a performance review where we look at numbers.
这只是一个简单的问题。
It's like one simple question.
我总是试图把一切简化为一个问题，这个问题能回答所有其他问题。
I always try to, like, I can, I always try to boil everything down to a question that answers all the other questions?
所以在任何新员工工作满第一年后，我们会问：以我现在的了解，我会再次雇佣他们吗？
So the question we ask after the first year with any new employee is, Knowing what I know now, would I hire them again?
这个问题几乎能回答所有问题。
And that answers pretty much every question.
它能回答关于绩效、态度、文化契合度以及所有相关方面的所有问题。
Answers every question about performance, about attitude, culture, fit, all the stuff.
以我现在的了解，我会再次雇佣他们吗？
If I know what I know now, would I hire them again?
结果在管理方面，我们发现这根本不是关于人的问题。
And so it turned out with the management stuff, we're like, it wasn't even about the people.
而是更像：以我们现在的了解，我们会再次设立这个职位吗？
It was more like, now that we know what we know now, would we create this position again?
答案是否定的。
And the answer was no.
所以我们取消了这些职位，再也没有重新招聘。
So we eliminated those positions and never rehired for them.
所以我们就这样稍微回到了一个更小的规模。
So that's how we kind of got back a little bit to a smaller size.
这样可行吗？
Does that work
产品方面也一样吗？
with products too?
还是产品的功能？
Or features of products?
是可以的。
It can.
但更难一些。
It's harder.
你们已经缩减了人员。
You've rolled back people.
你们甚至已经取消了整个产品。
You've rolled back entire products.
你们会
Do you
回退功能吗？
ever roll back features?
我们确实做过一些这样的事情，通常是这样。
We have done that in some ways, typically.
每五六年，我们都会重新设计Basecamp，这是我们主要的、最大的产品。
So every five, six years, we kind of reinvent Basecamp, which is our main product, our biggest product.
你们是重写吗？
Do you write it from scratch?
过去我们确实这么做过。
We have in the past.
从Basecamp 1到Basecamp 2，我们彻底重写了。
So from Basecamp one to Basecamp two was our total rewrite.
从2到3，我们也彻底重写了。
From two to three was a total rewrite.
从三到四就没有。
Three to four was not.
从四到五，我们现在正在做的，也没有。
And four to five, which we're working on now, is not.
但这提供了一个机会，重新审视很多关于产品功能和运作方式的基本假设。
But it's a chance to revisit a lot of fundamental assumptions about what the product does and how it works.
我总是试图逆流而行，对吧？
And I'm always trying to buck the trend, right?
人性通常是追求扩张的。
Human nature is about expansion, typically.
比如，事物往往会不断扩展。
Like things tend to expand.
但在物理世界中，也存在一些限制，会反过来制约这些扩张。
But in the physical world, there's also like limits that push back on those expansions.
比如，如果这个杯子烫得厉害，我们就会知道这是个糟糕的设计。
Like if this mug was burning hot, like we would know that's a bad design.
If this handle, if there's no handle here and I had to hold it this way, it may be not a good mug.
If this handle, if there's no handle here and I had to hold it this way, it may be not a good mug.
Like there's physics here.
Like there's physics here.
Like you look at this.
Like you look at this.
If this thing was made of a really, really fragile material or something that would like melt if it got wet, you'd be like, that's a bad design.
If this thing was made of a really, really fragile material or something that would like melt if it got wet, you'd be like, that's a bad design.
Like there's some things that are telling you this is a bad design.
Like there's some things that are telling you this is a bad design.
In software, you don't get that.
In software, you don't get that.
Software can be anything.
Software can be anything.
It's infinitely malleable.
It's infinitely malleable.
And what ends up happening is because there's nothing pushing back, it just expands forever and gets worse.
And what ends up happening is because there's nothing pushing back, it just expands forever and gets worse.
Software slides downhill.
Software slides downhill.
It gets better for a while
It gets better for a while
than slides downhill.
than slides downhill.
So I'm conscious of that.
So I'm conscious of that.
And I'm always trying to make sure that every new version we make of something is a little bit simpler in the fundamental ways than the previous version.
And I'm always trying to make sure that every new version we make of something is a little bit simpler in the fundamental ways than the previous version.
It might have more features, but the experience hopefully is simpler.
It might have more features, but the experience hopefully is simpler.
That's like the big challenge and actually the, frankly, like the most fun part of building products over the long term is can we buck the trend of having them slide downhill and instead like maintain or make them even better over time?
That's like the big challenge and actually the, frankly, like the most fun part of building products over the long term is can we buck the trend of having them slide downhill and instead like maintain or make them even better over time?
为什么这很有趣？
Why is that fun?
这很难。
It's hard.
但这也正是有趣的地方。
And that's fun.
这有点像解谜。
It's a bit of a puzzle.
这相当于在对抗自然的力量，通常这些力量会促使事物不断扩张。
It's a bit of pushing back against the forces of nature, typically, which, again, would be to expand.
它迫使我们为问题找到聪明的解决方案，更具创意的解决方案。
It's forcing us to come up with clever solutions to problems, more creative solutions to problems.
它逼着我去理解某事物的本质，而不是它可能是什么，或者我以为别人认为它是什么，而是它真正想做什么？
It forces me to understand what something really is and not like what it could be or what I think other people think of it as, but like, what is this really trying to do?
获得这些洞见是很有趣的。
And it's fun to have these insights.
所以，坦白说，我生活中最喜欢的事情就是获得洞见。
So like my favorite thing in life, frankly, is to like have an insight.
而且我无法决定什么时候会有这些洞见，对吧？
And I don't get to decide when I have them, right?
没人能决定。
No one does.
你就是突然有了一个洞见，对吧？
You just like have one, right?
可能是在淋浴时，也可能是在其他时候。
Maybe it's in the shower, maybe it's whatever.
你就是突然有了一个洞见。
You just have an insight.
在软件开发中解决问题，然后突然领悟到如何让它变得更简单，这真的很酷。
And it's cool to work on a problem in software and then have an insight about how to make it simpler.
我发现，不知为何，我在做软件时比做其他任何事情都更容易频繁地获得这些洞见。
And I find that for me, for whatever reason, I bounce into those insights very frequently making software, more so than pretty much anything else I do.
所以制作新东西很有趣，因为这样我能获得更多关于如何让它更简单、更优秀的洞察。
So it's fun to make something new because I get to have more insights into how to make it simpler and better.
不知为何，这些洞察就来自淋浴和写代码这些地方。
And that's just like, for whatever reason, that's where they come from, like the shower and the software.
我和杰森的很多对话都围绕着技艺，强调将灵魂注入工作，尽全力做出最好的产品。
A lot of the conversations that Jason and I have are about craft, about the importance of putting your soul into your work and making the best possible product that you can.
我们的对话让我想起我和朋友卡里姆的交谈，他是Ramp的联合创始人兼首席技术官。
Our conversations remind me a lot of the conversations I have with my friend Kareem, who's the cofounder and CTO of Ramp.
Ramp是本播客的冠名赞助商，而卡里姆是当今金融领域最杰出的技术头脑之一。
Ramp is the presenting sponsor of this podcast, and Kareem is one of the greatest technical minds working in finance today.
卡里姆痴迷于打造高质量的产品，并运用最新技术持续为用户创造更佳的体验。
Kareem was obsessed with crafting a high quality product and using the latest technology to constantly create better experiences for his customers.
Ramp拥有金融领域最顶尖的技术团队之一，他们通过快速而不懈的迭代，每天都在改进产品。
Ramp has one of the most talented technical teams in finance, and they use rapid, relentless iteration to make their product better every day.
在过去一年里，Ramp已经上线了超过300个新功能。
In the last year, Ramp has shipped over 300 new features.
Ramp 完全致力于利用人工智能为客户提供更佳的体验，并自动化您企业财务的尽可能多的部分。
Ramp is completely committed to using AI to make a better experience for their customers and automate as much of your business' finances as possible.
事实上，Kareem 刚刚写道：‘这些天我脑子里想的全是人工智能。’
In fact, Kareem just wrote this, AI is all I think about these days.
我们有责任成为先行者，突破极限，从而为客户提供最卓越的产品体验。
It is our duty to be first movers and push limits so we can make the greatest possible product experience for our customers.
世界上许多增长最快、最具创新性的公司都在使用 Ramp 运营其业务。
Many of the fastest growing and most innovative companies in the world are running their business on Ramp.
请务必访问 ramp.com，了解他们如何帮助您的企业节省时间和金钱。
Make sure you go to ramp.com to learn how they can help your business save time and money.
让人工智能为您追踪收据并完成对账，这样您就能把时间和精力投入到为客户打造卓越产品上。
Let AI chase your receipts and close your books so you can use your time and energy building great things for your customers.
立即访问 ramp.com 开始使用。
Get started today by going to ramp.com.
我们刚才聊了很多关于我与 Toby Luque 的这次对话。
We were talking a lot about this conversation I just had with Toby Luque.
I know both you and I admire him.
I know both you and I admire him.
Oh, yeah.
Oh, yeah.
And what I love about Toby, that you have in you as well, is when you talk to him, the next response out of his mouth is not predictable.
And what I love about Toby, that you have in you as well, is when you talk to him, the next response out of his mouth is not predictable.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And some of his, like, views are not correlated with one another, which also makes it really interesting.
And some of his, like, views are not correlated with one another, which also makes it really interesting.
So, like, for example, you've been running your company.
So, like, for example, you've been running your company.
You started your company when you're 25.
You started your company when you're 25.
Yeah.
Yeah.
你已经经营了二十七年。
You've been running for twenty seven years.
是的。
Yeah.
你们公司每年都盈利。
You guys have been profitable every single year.
没错。
Yep.
在公司整个生命周期中，你们拥有了数百万客户。
You have made, you know, you have millions of customers over the lifetime of the customer, of the business.
你们赚了数亿美元。
You've made hundreds of millions of dollars.
但你告诉我，如果你卖掉公司，你再也不想碰电脑了。
And yet you told me that if you ever sell the company, you don't want to look at a computer again.
是的，我不想。
Yeah, I don't.
首先，我不喜欢保持一致。
First of all, I don't like being consistent.
首先，我对保持一致没什么兴趣。
Not that interested in being consistent, first of all.
所以关于你提到的，说一些与之前相矛盾的话，对我来说，这完全取决于上下文。
So to your point about, like, saying something that kind of conflicts with something else, said, To me, it's just like, it's all about context.
这跟一致性无关。
It's not about consistency.
我完全不觉得一致性有什么意思。
I don't find consistency interesting in any way, shape, or form.
对我来说，一切都取决于上下文，这就是为什么我不喜欢做计划。
To me, it's all about the context, which is why, like, I don't like to plan.
我没有长期计划。
I don't have long term plans.
我喜欢边走边想。
I like to make things up as I go.
So that's all tied into that.
So that's all tied into that.
But yeah, I don't particularly like business.
But yeah, I don't particularly like business.
I like running my business.
I like running my business.
Like, I figured out how to run my business.
Like, I figured out how to run my business.
But the idea of me running another business, like, I don't want to do that.
But the idea of me running another business, like, I don't want to do that.
I don't want to do that.
I don't want to do that.
Maybe could create another one that's mine and I would like it, but I don't think I could actually.
Maybe could create another one that's mine and I would like it, but I don't think I could actually.
And I think that we're a product of timing and teams and the right people at the right time and the right ideas at the right time and all that stuff.
And I think that we're a product of timing and teams and the right people at the right time and the right ideas at the right time and all that stuff.
这就是让这件事成形并持续下去的原因。
That's what made this thing and continues this thing.
但要重新开始去经营一家企业？
But to start over again to run a business?
不了，谢谢。
No, thank you.
坦白说，另一点是，我永远不会用我的企业去换别人的公司。
And frankly, the other thing is, I would never trade my business for anyone else's business.
我不想要别人的生意。
I don't want anyone else's business.
我不想换位思考，去体会别人的处境。
I don't want to put myself in someone else's shoes.
我知道该怎么做我的事。
I know how to do my thing.
而且，这对我来说已经足够了。
And like, that's enough for me.
我不需要去迎合自我，想着我可以在别处再做一遍。
I don't need to, like, stroke the ego and go, I could do this again somewhere else.
我可以把某件事转变一下。
I could turn something.
我不认为我还能再做一次这样的事，但我也并不需要。
I don't think I could do this ever again, but I don't need to.
这没什么关系。
And that's okay.
能够安心于自己所建立的成果和当前正在做的事情，觉得这就足够了，对我来说是一种非常平和的状态。
Like, sense of just being comfortable with what you've built and what you're working on now, being enough, is for me a very peaceful place to be.
我认为，这在科技行业里却很少被提及，这个行业总是强调增长、增长、再增长，尽可能做大，提高估值，
And I think that that's unfortunately not something that's talked enough about in my industry, which is tech, which is grow, grow, grow, get as big as you can, sell valuations,
做
do
再次创业，连续创业。
it again, serial entrepreneurship.
对我来说，这很无聊。
Like, it's boring to me.
这一切都无聊。
All that's boring.
好的。
Okay.
我想做的事情有一大堆。
There's a million things I want do.
我们走吧。
Let's go.
我想深入聊聊这一点。
I want to unpack there.
你说了好多事。
You said a bunch of things.
你想谈的连续创业，我想重点说一下，因为我和你之前聊过我和约翰·麦基的对话。
The serial entrepreneurship I want to hit on because you and I were talking about the conversation I had with John Mackie.
是的。
Yes.
他在提到一些朋友，他们特别喜欢开始新的事情。
Where he was referencing some of his friends just love to like start.
然后你就想，哦，我其实有一个比喻想聊聊。
And you're like, oh, I actually have like this metaphor that I want to start talking about.
那就是信封和信件。
And it is envelopes and letters.
信封和信件。
Envelopes and letters.
对。
Yeah.
然后我们再继续
And then we'll go
回到你不喜欢做生意这个事实，你只喜欢，这真的很重要。
back to the fact that you don't like business and that you only like and you're not it's really important.
第二，别让我忘了，你完全没有嫉妒心。
Two, don't let me forget, is you have no sense of envy.
我是说，我足够了解你，对别人的事从不感兴趣。
Like, I know I know you well enough to other people's businesses.
我觉得这可不是装出来的。
Like, I don't think that is an act.
没错。
No.
我不会用我的生意去换任何人的生意。
I I would not trade my business for anyone's business.
所以我从不羡慕任何人的生意。
So I don't envy anyone's business.
事实上，那简直是退步。
In fact, it'd be a downgrade.
任何人的生意都是如此。
Anyone's.
你可以选任何人。
You could pick anyone.
如果你已经决定的话。
If anyone You've decide.
如果你得做决定，你会想，杰森，你会交换这份生意吗？
If you've to decide, you're like, Jason, would you trade this business?
不会。
No.
任何其他生意我都不想接手。
Any business I wouldn't take.
我会选择我的生意，而不是任何别人的生意。
I'd take mine over anyone else's business.
所以，我没有
So like, I don't have
那背后的想法是什么？
What's the underlying thought there?
展开剩余字幕（还有 480 条）
我只是觉得，我打造了我想工作的公司。
It's just like, I built the company I want to work at.
我打造了我想投身的事业。
I built the business I want to be in.
别人可没有这种东西。
Like, no one else has that.
我有。
I have that.
这就是我的独特之处。
That's my thing.
现在他们有他们的独特之处。
Now they have their thing.
我有我的独特之处。
I have my thing.
我真的非常热爱我所创造的一切。
Like, I love what I've built.
It's great.
It's great.
I'm very happy with it.
I'm very happy with it.
And it's a good fit for me.
And it's a good fit for me.
You know, I don't want to wear someone else's clothes.
You know, I don't want to wear someone else's clothes.
I don't want to do someone else's stuff.
I don't want to do someone else's stuff.
I don't want to live up to someone else's expectations.
I don't want to live up to someone else's expectations.
Like, we have ours.
Like, we have ours.
We do our thing.
We do our thing.
We do our thing our way, and that's it.
We do our thing our way, and that's it.
And if I had to do my thing someone else's way, it would just, it'd be a game of charades.
And if I had to do my thing someone else's way, it would just, it'd be a game of charades.
And there's a lot of people, I think, playing entrepreneur.
And there's a lot of people, I think, playing entrepreneur.
Don't want to play entrepreneur.
Don't want to play entrepreneur.
What does playing entrepreneur mean to you?
What does playing entrepreneur mean to you?
It means a lot of things to me.
It means a lot of things to me.
But I think there's a lot of people let's get into the envelope thing, because this is part of that.
But I think there's a lot of people let's get into the envelope thing, because this is part of that.
Okay.
Okay.
我记得刚开始做‘信封人’的时候。
And I remember when I was getting started being an envelope guy.
对我来说，商业有两面。
So the envelope, to me, there's two sides of business, basically.
一面是信封，另一面是信件。
There's the envelope and there's the letter.
信封是外表、外壳、企业，是承载信件的载体，而信件才是产品或产品组合。
The envelope is the outside, the shell, the business, the vehicle that holds the letter, and the letter is the product or products.
我是个产品控。
I'm a product guy.
我热爱产品。
I love product.
我只关心这个。
That's all I care about.
商业层面只要存在，能承载产品就够了。
The business side just has to exist to hold the product.
对吧？
Right?
也就是说，产品就是通过这个载体来传递的。
Like, just, that's the vehicle in which the product travels in.
但我其实不太在意这个信封，不过有很多人很在意。
But I don't care about the envelope so much, but there's lots of people.
我刚创业的时候就想过品牌和业务，想着它能有多大，该怎么描述它，该叫它什么名字？
And I remember this early on when I first started my business, I was thinking about the brand and the business and how big it could be and what, how do I describe it and what do I call it?
这些都是信封的工作。
That's all envelope work.
这些都是外在的东西。
That's like all on the outside.
我觉得有不少人是这样，顺便说一下，这没什么问题。
And I think there's a number of people, and by the way, it's fine.
这些都没问题。
All this is fine.
我想说的是，你必须了解自己，清楚自己想要什么，想做什么。
What I'm getting at is you got to know who you are and what you want out of yourself and what you want to do.
如果你是注重外表的人，那也没关系。
And if you're an envelope person, that's fine.
如果你是注重内在产品的人，那也没关系。
If you're a product letter person, that's fine.
但你必须清楚自己是谁。
But you got to know who you are.
我知道我不是那种注重外表的人。
I know I'm not an envelope person.
我不只想打造外壳。
I don't just want to build shells.
外壳装满后我就卖掉，然后再造另一个外壳。
That gets filled and then I sell it and build another shell.
装满后卖掉，再造一个外壳，再装满，再卖掉。
It gets filled and I sell it and build another shell and gets filled and then I sell it.
我只是想专注于写一封信。
I want to just work on a letter.
信封只是最薄的一层，用来装信而已。
And the envelope is just the thinnest little thing that needs to be there to hold the letter.
我觉得当企业家就像是不断创办新公司，制造各种东西，给它们取名字、设计标志，试图融资，估算估值，谈论这一切。
I think playing entrepreneur is like spinning up businesses all the time, making all sorts of stuff and giving it a name and giving it a logo and trying to raise money and coming up with valuations and talking about all this stuff.
但这些东西里面其实还没有任何实质内容。
And there's like nothing of substance inside that yet.
也许以后会有，但在很多情况下，什么都没有。
Maybe there will be, but in a lot of cases, there's nothing.
只有亏损。
There's just losses.
然后就是疯狂地赶在某个估值时退出，为了那些投了钱的人。
And then it's like a mad rush to get out at a certain valuation for other people who put money in.
这就像把企业变成一种资产、一种金融工具。
That's like turning a business into an asset, a financial instrument.
这对我来说毫无吸引力。
It's just not interesting to me.
我想创造东西。
I want to make things.
我想打造产品。
I want to build products.
这就是我所做的事情。
And that's what I do.
再说一遍，这就是我们所做的事情。
Again, that's what we do.
把企业当成金融工具这个想法，让我完全无法接受。
And just the idea of a business being a financial instrument is just like, it's anathema to me.
这简直让人反感，说实话。
It's just kind of, it's repellent, actually.
为什么需要？你刚才用‘薄壳’来形容信封。
Why does it need to You just used the word thin shell to describe the envelope.
你为什么想
Why do you want
我想要一个薄薄的外壳。
I want a thin thin shell.
哦。
Oh.
那是什么意思？
What does that mean?
我会这么说。
Well, I would say this.
物体质量越大，改变其方向所需的能量就越多。
The more massive an object, the more energy it takes to change its direction.
对吧？
Right?
这其实就是回到基础物理了。
This is just like, this is getting back to basic physics.
当我想起这些的时候，有时这些比喻并不完全贴切，在我脑子里，我会想到一个厚重的组织。
A thick When I think of this stuff, and sometimes these metaphors don't perfectly line up, in my head, I think of like a thick business.
很难改变。
It's hard to change.
它很沉重。
It's heavy.
它非常庞大。
It's massive.
它和客户、它和产品之间隔着太远的距离。
There's too much distance between it and the customers, it and the product.
中间有空间，对吧？
There's space, like, right?
你可以想象，假如你想象一个非常厚重的东西，这才是真正重要的部分，而你必须穿过所有这些层，把它们全部压缩，才能触及真正重要的部分。
You can imagine, like, if you just imagine something very thick, this is the thing that matters, and you've to go through all this and compress all this down to get to the thing that matters.
我不喜欢这样。
Like, I don't like that.
我认为真正重要的东西应该很庞大，而其他部分则应该尽可能精简。
I think the thing that matters should be big and that the rest of it should be as thin as possible.
因此，这就是我们在37signals努力打造的东西。
And so that's what we've tried to build at thirty seven Signals.
这是一家非常精简的公司，拥有庞大而优质、扎实、真实且能产生真实利润的业务产品。
It's a very thin business with a thick set of products that are good and solid and real and generate real profits and are real businesses.
而其余的部分仅仅足够将这一切维系在一起。
And then the rest of it is just enough to hold it all together.
这就是我对商业的愿景。
That's like my vision for business.
这并不是唯一的愿景。
It's not the only vision.
有很多人比我成功得多，但他们并不这样看待问题。
Plenty of people way more successful than me don't see it this way.
我不在乎。
I don't care.
我只是这么看待它，并且这么分享出来。
Like, this is just how I see it and how I'm sharing it.
主要是想让大家知道，你并不一定要做大。
And it's mainly just to show people that, like, you don't have to go big.
它不必是一个庞大、臃肿、繁重、忙碌的公司。
It doesn't have to be a big, thick, heavy, busy company.
它可以非常精简，然后专注于产品，找到真正喜欢你的人，达到一个‘足够了’的境界，然后维持下去。
It can be very thin and then focus on the product get to a place where you can find out people like you, get to this place where enough is enough, and then maintain.
对我来说，另一种思考方式是，我总是回到这些奇怪的比喻，比如，你知道的，那个‘曲棍球杆’图表，对吧？
Another way to think about this for me, I always go back to these sort of weird metaphors, is like, you know, there's the hockey stick, right, chart, right?
那种方式让我觉得没什么吸引力。
That is like unappealing to me.
我更喜欢一种像火箭进入轨道的比喻。
I like more of like a metaphor where it's more like a rocket into orbit.
你得先离开地面，摆脱重力的束缚。
So you got to get off the ground and you got to break free of gravity.
但到了某个阶段，你只是想停留在轨道上，维持现状。
But then there's a point where you actually just want to sit in orbit and sort of maintain.
你希望保持在某个范围内，小幅上下波动，但处于一个舒适的轨道位置。
You want to be within a certain range and fluctuate a little bit up, a little bit down, but be in this comfortable place where you're just orbiting.
你不再需要突破任何阻力了。
You're not breaking a force anymore.
你不再拼命推动了。
You're not pushing super hard.
你只是在维持一定的质量，保持一份愉悦，现在只需稳定地环绕运行。
You're maintaining a level of quality, maintaining a level of enjoyment and just orbiting now.
我认为，这对企业来说是一个非常美好的状态。
And I think that that's a really wonderful place for businesses to be.
但我不会鼓励你在第二年就试图进入轨道。
But I wouldn't encourage you to be trying to get to orbit in year two.
你必须经历上升的过程，才能挣脱所有阻碍你的力量。
You've got to be on the ride up to break free of all the forces that are holding you back.
But then you should also find a place where you can settle in an orbit versus people who I think are just busy constantly trying to grow, grow, grow and get as big as they possibly can.
But then you should also find a place where you can settle in an orbit versus people who I think are just busy constantly trying to grow, grow, grow and get as big as they possibly can.
And I always say like, why?
And I always say like, why?
I'm like, so what you're massive and you're twice as massive?
I'm like, so what you're massive and you're twice as massive?
Like, So what?
Like, So what?
Why?
Why?
Why?
Why?
What's that all about?
What's that all about?
And they may have an answer for you.
And they may have an answer for you.
我不这么认为。
I don't.
我不知道除了为增长而增长之外，还有什么其他答案。
I don't know what the answer would be other than like just growing for growth's sake.
但我非常支持达到某个目标后就稳住。
But I'm a big fan of getting somewhere and then holding.
当我想到你时，我觉得你最常重复的一句话就是这个观点。
When I think of you, I think one of your maxims that you repeat the most is that idea.
比如，我经常听到你说‘那又怎样’。
Like, I hear you say so what all
是的，就是那些‘那又怎样’的问题？
the Yeah, so what questions?
对。
Yeah.
再多解释一下这个观点。
Explain more about that.
那你得提出一个问题。
Well, you'd have to ask a question.
就像是，所以呢？
Would be like, Like, so what?
我不明白为什么要增长？
I don't why grow?
我的意思是，也许这并不是个好问题。
I mean, maybe that's not a good one.
但举个例子，我们明显在漏掉很多钱。
But for example, like, we're definitely leaving money on the table.
我对此很有把握。
I'm sure of it.
比如，我们没有优化定价。
Like, we don't optimize our pricing.
我没有持续地测试定价。
I'm not testing pricing not constantly.
我们并没有持续进行A/B测试。
We're not AB constantly.
我确信我们没有遵循某种公式，而它本可以带来更多的增长、更多的收入、更多的 whatever，更多的 whatever。
I'm certain there's some formula that we're not following that could lead to more growth, more revenue, more whatever, more whatever.
我的回答是：那又怎样？
And my answer is like, So what?
我觉得我们现在的位置很好。
Like, I'm very comfortable with where we are.
我们有一个很棒的业务，高利润率，非常可预测。
We've got a great business, high margins, very predictable.
我们一直在不断推出新产品。
We make new stuff all the time.
我们过得很愉快。
We enjoy ourselves.
我们玩得很开心。
We have a great time.
我是真的不想把这搞砸了。
Like, I don't want to fuck that up.
我觉得人们经常把这事搞砸。
I think people fuck it up all the time.
当你达到合适的规模时，不知为何，你就是无法满足于现状。
You get to the right size, and for whatever reason, you can't be content there.
你推得太猛、太急，反而失去了原本最棒的东西。
And you push a little bit too much, too hard, and you lost what was great about what you were doing.
所以，关于‘有现成的钱摆在那儿’这种说法，也许根本就没有，也许根本没有。
And so this whole thing about there's money on the table, and maybe there isn't, maybe there isn't.
也许有优化的方法，也许没有。
Maybe there's a way to optimize, maybe there isn't.
我只是对这个不感兴趣。
I just it doesn't interest me.
那这又有什么关系呢？
So it's so what to that?
我真的不在乎。
I don't really care.
你看看我对你这个观察对不对。
Tell me if this observation that I have about you is correct.
对。
Yeah.
你似乎天生就对优化有一种本能的反感。
You seem to have this inherent natural revulsion against optimization.
是的，我不喜欢优化。
Yeah, I don't like optimization.
好的。
Okay.
好的。
Okay.
所以这里有个一致性的问题。
So here's the consistency thing.
这完全取决于上下文。
It's all about context.
我不喜欢围绕数字进行优化。
I don't like optimization around numbers.
比如，我只是在说，我们可以通过这个赚500万美元。
Like, I'm just picking up, we can make $5,000,000 on this.
如果我们做XYZ，能赚到510万美元，那确实很棒。
Well, it'd be amazing if we could make 5,100,000.0 if we did XYZ.
我不关心为了赚510万美元而做XYZ，但我对优化产品以使其更好感兴趣。
I don't care about the XYZ to make 5,100,000.0 But I am interested in optimizing a product to make it better.
对我来说，这才是值得的优化。
That to me is a worthwhile optimization.
因为它对我更好，因为我使用它。
Like it's better for me because I use it.
它对我们的客户也更好，因为他们使用它。
It's better for our customers because they use it.
That's fun.
That's fun.
But like squeezing out an extra $100 off $5,000,000 or something, it's just like not fun.
But like squeezing out an extra $100 off $5,000,000 or something, it's just like not fun.
It's boring.
It's boring.
Not fun boring.
Not fun boring.
Like, actually beyond not fun boring.
Like, actually beyond not fun boring.
I don't even know what would be beyond that, but I'm not interested in that at all.
I don't even know what would be beyond that, but I'm not interested in that at all.
I'd rather spend the money making the thing I make better.
I'd rather spend the money making the thing I make better.
That is the thing I'm here for.
That is the thing I'm here for.
Not to squeeze an extra $100 out of something or an extra million out of something.
Not to squeeze an extra $100 out of something or an extra million out of something.
I don't care.
I don't care.
It doesn't matter.
It doesn't matter.
Like, there's a point where you're doing well enough where it shouldn't matter anymore.
Like, there's a point where you're doing well enough where it shouldn't matter anymore.
That might make me a bad CEO.
That might make me a bad CEO.
Maybe someone else would come in my business and double the business overnight.
Maybe someone else would come in my business and double the business overnight.
That might be totally true, and I'm willing to accept that that's the case.
That might be totally true, and I'm willing to accept that that's the case.
My answer would be, So what?
My answer would be, So what?
我不在乎。
I don't care.
我甚至不认为你把自己看作是……然后又回到‘那又怎样’了。
I don't even think you think of yourself as a And there goes to So what again.
是你自己要求的。
You asked for it.
不，我认为你无法控制自己。
No, I don't think you can help yourself.
我认为你并不把自己当作一位CEO。
I don't think you think of yourself as a CEO.
我不这么认为。
I don't.
说实话，我甚至不喜欢这个称呼。
I don't actually even like the term, frankly.
好吧。
Okay.
比如执行官？
Like executive officer?
什么？
What?
什么的执行官？
Of what?
我是做产品的。
Like, I make products.
我和大卫一起管理公司。
I run the company with David.
我和大卫一起经营公司。
David and I run it together.
我不需要CEO这个头衔。
Like, I don't need the CEO.
你呢
Do you
说
say
首席执行官。
Chief Executive Officer.
什么的？
Of what?
再说一遍，是哪个方面的？
Again, like, of what?
我们做决策。
Like, we make decisions.
这就是我们的工作。
That's what we do.
我们做决策。
We make decisions.
我们做产品。
We make products.
我们雇佣自己喜欢的优秀人才。
We hire great people that we like.
我们寻找没有纷争的人。
We find people with zero drama.
比如，我们组建了一个团队。
Like, we put together a team.
我们的目标是创造东西。
We set out to make things.
我们非常关心员工，也非常关心我们的客户。
We take really good care of people, really good care of our customers.
我们制造出我们真正喜欢的好产品。
We make good products that we really like.
很棒的产品，希望如此，对吧？
Great products, hopefully, right?
我得留一点空间，保持一点谦逊。
I got to leave a little bit of room there for some humility.
比如，我们总能做出更好的产品。
Like, we can always make better products.
所以我不打算称我们的产品为绝佳。
So I'm not going to call our products fantastic.
它们很好，很棒。
They are good, great.
总还有改进的空间。
There's always room for making those better.
但说到当CEO以及这到底意味着什么，我真的不知道那到底是什么意思。
But as far as like being a CEO and whatever that's supposed to mean, I don't know what the hell that means.
昨天，我回复了大约200封来自客户的邮件。
Yesterday, I answered like 200 emails from my customers.
有些人可能会说，一个CEO花时间给客户发邮件是不负责任的。
Is that like, some people would say that's irresponsible for a CEO to spend their time emailing customers.
我觉得这是你能做的最好的事情。
Like, I think it's the best thing you can do.
But I don't think of myself as a CEO.
But I don't think of myself as a CEO.
I would say whoever says it's not a good use
I would say whoever says it's not a good use
of A lot time
of A lot time
say it, dude.
say it, dude.
Yeah, but like they need to listen to founders because they're all like this.
Yeah, but like they need to listen to founders because they're all like this.
The the best entrepreneurs and founders in in history.
The the best entrepreneurs and founders in in history.
And I think what me and you bond over is exactly that.
And I think what me and you bond over is exactly that.
Like, I all I care about is products.
Like, I all I care about is products.
我其他什么都不在乎。
I don't care about anything else.
是的。
Yes.
我觉得你看待自己作为设计师的方式。
I think the way you think of yourself as a designer.
对。
Yeah.
这样对吗？
Is that correct?
是的。
Yes.
当然。
Sure.
好的。
Okay.
有点自以为是。
A little presumptuous.
我是这么想的，是的。
Like, I I think of it yes.
好吧。
Fine.
你不是自以为是的人。
You're not a presumptuous person.
我不是那个意思。
I didn't mean it
那样说的。
that way.
我知道你不是那个意思。
I know you didn't.
是的。
Yeah.
但当我跟你说话时，感觉你为自己的一生都设计好了所有东西。
But when I talk to you, it's like you've just designed everything in your life.
我喜欢创造东西。
I like to make things.
是的。
Yeah.
但你这么说。
But you say that.
但你我们投入了很多
But you we put a lot
很多，你是一个
of there's a you're a
你是个非常有想法的人，你能看到，你在生活中每件事的设计上投入了多少思考。
very thoughtful guy, and you see the like, how much thought you put into the design of everything in your life.
恰好你也为商业产品投入了大量思考，使其完全契合你作为一个人的本质。
It just happens you've also put a lot of thought into designing products in the business, again, to fit exactly who you are as a person.
Yeah, as best I can.
Yeah, as best I can.
I mean, I have a family and I have kids, and like, don't always get that's
I mean, I have a family and I have kids, and like, don't always get that's
the way
the way
you want them to be, But like, you do your best and you live within a system that you're proud of and happy with.
you want them to be, But like, you do your best and you live within a system that you're proud of and happy with.
And that's, I think, a big part
And that's, I think, a big part
of it.
of it.
The best founders, I see this over and over again.
The best founders, I see this over and over again.
Like, they're always You said something about, like, the thickness of the envelope and all this stuff that's between the person running the company and the customer.
Like, they're always You said something about, like, the thickness of the envelope and all this stuff that's between the person running the company and the customer.
你必须把这一点尽可能缩小，甚至几乎消除。
You have to make that as small or almost nonexistent as possible.
我最喜欢的一个例子是百年前UPS的创始人吉姆·凯西。
One of my favorite examples is this example for over one hundred years ago, Jim Casey, the founder of UPS.
他意识到自己身边全是高管。
What he realized is like he had all these executives.
他非常关注激励机制。
He paid attention to incentives.
他发现，随着时间推移，这些人只会告诉他想听的话。
He realized they would, over time, just tell him what he wants to hear.
所以他一直被奉承，却得不到有用的信息。
So therefore, was only getting he was getting his ass kissed all the time, not getting useful information.
于是他想：算了，不玩了。
So he's like, forget this.
我不想再跟他们谈了。
I'm not I don't want talk to them.
是的
Yep.
他会让一位司机开车上街，每当看到一辆棕色的UPS卡车时，他就让司机停车，然后亲自与司机交谈。
He would he would have he had a driver, and they would drive on the streets, and he just says, every time you see a brown truck, brown UPS truck, you pull over, and he would just talk directly to the drivers.
他把所有时间都花在与那些实际工作的人交谈上。
He spent all his time talking to the person
对
Yeah.
那些才是真正为客户提供服务的人。
That's actually doing the work for the customer.
我不认为
So I don't think
他们最了解情况。
They know the most.
我不认为有人会说，杰夫·贝佐斯，我知道他拥有并是你的合伙人。
I don't think anybody's saying, Jeff Bezos, I know he owns he's a partner of yours.
他持有你们公司的一部分股份。
He owns a percentage of your company.
你知道，他对此抱怨了很久。
You know, he railed about this forever.
没错。
Right.
他要求每一位高管都必须花一天、一周甚至一个月时间亲自参与客户服务工作。
And he made every single executive, you'd have to spend a day or a week or a month on On whatever customer was support.
是的。
Yeah.
我们也这么做。
We do the same thing.
我们有一段时间没这么做了，但以前是这样的。
We haven't done that for a bit, but we used to do that.
其实我们该再恢复这个做法。
We should do it again, actually.
我们以前有个叫全员参与客服的制度，每个人轮流一天去负责客服工作。
We used to have this thing called everyone on support where people do it for a day, rotate through the company.
主要是为了让我和大卫也去参与，但现在我自己 anyway 也会去做。
Mostly so I would do it and so David would do it, and now I do it anyway.
但这非常重要。
But it's very important.
我想，当我住在芝加哥的时候，街角有一家叫Olivia's的杂货店。
I think, you know, there's a when I lived in Chicago, there was a grocery store down the street called Olivia's.
现在还在。
There still is.
我认识了店主。
And I got to know the owner.
我很欣赏他能亲自认识每一位顾客，因为顾客进店时，他会主动打招呼，对吧？
And I appreciated the fact that he got to know his customers personally because they'd walk in the store and he would say hello, right?
正因如此，我才认识了他。
That's how I got to know him.
可惜的是，我没有这样的机会。
I don't unfortunately have that opportunity.
比如，有数十万用户在使用我们的产品。
Like, have hundreds of thousands of people who use our products.
我真的很沮丧，因为我并不认识所有的客户。
And it actually frustrates me that I don't know all of our customers.
我可能一天内从75个我们的客户身边走过，却根本不知道他们是我们的客户。
Like I could walk past on the street, I could walk past 75 of our customers in a given day, and I wouldn't know that.
他能认出来，因为他认识他们是谁，了解他们的家人，方方面面都了解。
He would know because he would know who they are and he knew their family, the whole thing.
所以我一直尽力做到尽可能贴近我们的客户，虽然我无法真正贴近。
So I've always tried as best I can to get as close to I can't get as close to our customers.
从这个角度来说，我们的客户太多了。
We have too many of them in that sense.
但每当有人注册Basecamp时，他们首先看到的是一封来自我的信，里面有我的邮箱地址、签名和电子邮件。
But whenever you sign up for Basecamp, the first thing you see is a letter from me with my email address, my signature and my email address.
我希望我的客户给我发邮件。
And I want my customers to email me.
我不想躲着任何人。
I don't want to hide from anybody.
没有任何AI，没有任何助手，没有任何中间层级。
There's no AI, there's no assistant, there's no levels between at all.
直接给我写信吧。
Just write me.
人们经常这么做。
And people do all the time.
我们的书中也写了这一点。
And we have in our books as well.
我们的书中印有我们的邮箱地址。
We have our email address in our books.
我想尽可能贴近使用我们产品的人，不仅为了让他们开心，也因为我希望自己开心。
I want to get as close as possible to the people who use the things that we make, not just to make them happy, because I want to make myself happy too.
我们是我们自己产品的第一个客户，但为了了解他们如何使用这些产品，了解他们使用的语言、如何描述它们，以及他们是谁。
We are the first customer of our products, but to understand what they're doing with them, to understand the language they use, how they describe them, who they are.
我想知道这些，因为某种方式上，这些会渗透到我内心，让我感受到成为他们的感觉，理解他们使用我们为他们打造的杠杆去推动某些事物时的体验。
I want to know these things because somehow it permeates me and I just, I get to feel what it's like to be them and get to understand what it's like for them to use the lever that we've made for them to move something.
对我来说，除了公开我的邮箱地址，没有其他方式能做到这一点，因为我无法像见到那位经营杂货店的人那样亲自与人们见面。
And there's no other way to do that for me than to just share my email address because I don't get to meet people in person like this guy who runs a grocery store.
但我非常喜欢那样的企业。
But I love businesses like that.
我喜欢那些已经经营了四十年的干洗店老板。
People who I love the dry cleaner who's been there for forty years.
我喜欢本地的杂货店。
I love the local grocery store.
我就是喜欢这些小企业。
I just love businesses.
对我来说，这些远比那些十亿美元的巨头有趣得多。
Those to me are so much more interesting than the billion dollar whatever.
Why?
Why?
That's a great question.
That's a great question.
I feel like they're more real.
I feel like they're more real.
I like real things, for whatever that means.
I like real things, for whatever that means.
Define it however you'd like.
Define it however you'd like.
But a billion dollar business or a $10,000,000,000 business, just it doesn't feel like a real thing to me.
But a billion dollar business or a $10,000,000,000 business, just it doesn't feel like a real thing to me.
It feels like a concept.
It feels like a concept.
Meanwhile, the dry cleaner down the street, I can drop off my shirt, I get it cleaned, I bring it up, I pick it up from the person who owns the place.
Meanwhile, the dry cleaner down the street, I can drop off my shirt, I get it cleaned, I bring it up, I pick it up from the person who owns the place.
This is her living.
This is her living.
This is what they do.
This is what they do.
There's something for me that I connect with, something that's real, that I feel like I can hold in my head and I can understand.
There's something for me that I connect with, something that's real, that I feel like I can hold in my head and I can understand.
I keep coming back to this, well, keep, but I have already in this interview once, this idea of the surface area and like a business as an object.
I keep coming back to this, well, keep, but I have already in this interview once, this idea of the surface area and like a business as an object.
I want to be able to see the whole thing and understand the whole thing.
I want to be able to see the whole thing and understand the whole thing.
A massive entity with tens of thousands of people and billions of dollars and whatever.
A massive entity with tens of thousands of people and billions of dollars and whatever.
I just, I don't understand it.
I just, I don't understand it.
And that's maybe my own shortcoming or whatever.
And that's maybe my own shortcoming or whatever.
我真的不在乎了。
I don't really care again.
我是说，我不需要理解那个。
Like, I don't need to understand that.
那不是我的事。
It's not my thing.
但我就是更喜欢小企业。
But I just prefer smaller businesses.
我们的客户就是小企业主。
And that's what our customers are small business owners.
我对大企业客户毫不在意。
And I don't care about enterprise customers.
我不想要他们。
I don't want them.
我喜欢小型和中型企业。
I like small, medium sized businesses.
他们更像我。
They're more like me.
我理解他们是谁。
I understand who they are.
我理解他们做什么。
I understand what they do.
我喜欢这种类型
I like that kind
的东西。
of stuff.
所以一家企业不会超出一个人的理解范围。
So a business that can't be beyond a single person's comprehension.
比如，能够理解。
Like, can understand.
干洗店就是个很好的例子。
Dry cleaner is very You gave this great story.
我不记得这是否出现在你的某本书里。
I don't remember if it was in one of your books or not.
你的文字中流露出一种对工艺的热爱，我感受到了。
There was like this You like a love of craftsmanship that I get from your writing.
比如有一家披萨店，他只卖新鲜面团，而且他根本不开三明治店。
And yeah, there's like a pizza place where it's like he will only Is sell it the fresh dough and he has no It's a sandwich place.
三明治。
Sandwich.
你能讲讲这个吗？
Can you tell this?
当他们面包卖完的时候，我不在场。
When they ran out of bread, I'm not there.
我不知道他们现在还在做生意吗。
I don't know if they're in business anymore.
他们在芝加哥。
They're in Chicago.
Vinny's, I think, was the name of the place on Chicago Avenue, if anyone wants to look it up.
Vinny's, I think, was the name of the place on Chicago Avenue, if anyone wants to look it up.
Sandwich place, sub Italian joint, you know, whatever you go in and they're open as long as they have bread.
Sandwich place, sub Italian joint, you know, whatever you go in and they're open as long as they have bread.
And they just sell out and they're closed.
And they just sell out and they're closed.
That's it.
That's it.
They're done.
They're done.
They're not making, like, That's
They're not making, like, That's
sell still more.
sell still more.
They could, I'm sure, get more sacks of bread from that.
They could, I'm sure, get more sacks of bread from that.
它实际上是装在袋子里的，你知道的，就像那种大法棍面包之类的。
It actually comes like in a sack, you know, like the big baguettes or whatever.
然后，他们一卖完就关门了，结束了。
And like, they just went out, they're done.
通常可能是凌晨两点三十左右吧。
Maybe usually it's like 02:30 or something.
所以门上贴着营业时间。
So hours on the door.
他们什么时候卖完就什么时候关门，一天结束就结束。
They close when they close, when they're done for the day.
对我来说，这种做法有种特别诗意和美好的感觉。
I just, there's something to me very poetic and beautiful about that.
而且，再说一遍，够了。
And like, again, enough.
这又回到了一个观点：这其中已经足够了。
It comes back to this idea of there's enough in that.
They're done for the day.
They're done for the day.
It's enough.
It's enough.
They sold enough.
They sold enough.
But he does that because They
But he does that because They
could sell more, but then where do you stop?
could sell more, but then where do you stop?
But this is the thing.
But this is the thing.
It's the quality,
It's the quality,
though, right?
though, right?
因为那样的话
Because I then
我的意思是，你说得对。
mean, you're right.
确实是质量的问题，但他们也可以获得更好的面包质量。
It is the quality, too, but they could get more quality bread also.
但问题是，你在哪里停下来？
But there's a Okay, so where do you stop?
我的意思是，这到哪里才算结束？
Like, where does this end?
你可以营业到早上6:30。
Well, you could stay open until 06:30.
我的意思是，七点可能就够了，我们可以做到7:30。
I mean, seven probably, we could do 07:30.
如果还有人在门口，我们就可以做到八点。
Someone's still at the door, we could do eight.
你可以看到，这种情况根本没有尽头，这样的生意可能会吞噬一切。
Like, you could see how this doesn't end and how a business like that could consume everything.
然后你开始不喜欢它，因为你的生活中除了它之外什么都没有。
And then you begin to not like it because there's nothing else in your life but that.
然后你就对它如此依恋。
Then you're so attached to it.
你可以看到，这种情况可能会扩张到这种地步。
Like, you can see how this could expand to that degree.
我只是觉得，像你晚上2:30就收工这种想法是健康的。
I just think this idea of like, well, you're done at 02:30 is healthy.
我认为正因如此，生意才能更持久。
I think the business lasts longer because of that.
我觉得，如果你想想，你大概不会对这样的生意感到厌倦。
I think like if you think about, like, you don't probably get bored of a business like that.
这种理念和那种必须最大化、填满你所有时间、所有精力、一切的生意理念相比，有些东西很特别。我明白为什么这种模式在一段时间内很有吸引力，但我也觉得，‘足够’本身有一种简单而美好的意义。
There's something about that versus this idea of a business that you have to maximize and fully fill all your time, all your energy, everything, all the I just, I can understand the appeal there for a while, but I also think there's something very just simply beautiful about enough.
现在，我并不拥有这家店。
Now, I don't own that business.
他们可能希望自己能有更多收入，卖出更多三明治。
They might wish they had a lot more revenue and sold a lot more sandwiches.
所以我也想指出，我是从外部来看待这件事的。
So I also want to recognize the fact that I'm looking at this from the outside.
我是一个客观的观察者。
I'm an objective observer.
我不了解这家店的实际情况。
I don't know the realities of that business.
但我只是在观察我认为一件很美好的事：一家历史悠久、家族经营、生意刚好足以支撑他们自己和员工、为顾客提供美味食物的店。
But I'm just observing what I think is a beautiful thing, which is a business that's been around for a long time, family owned, does enough business for them to support themselves and their employees, make great food for their customers.
这不正是重点所在吗？
Isn't that what this is about?
你为自己能长久经营这家店感到自豪吗？
Are you proud of how long that you've been able to stay in business?
我不为此感到自豪。
I'm not proud of it.
我的意思不是在负面意义上说的。
Like, I'm not I didn't mean that, like, in a negative way.
自豪感重要吗？
It's like pride is not a Is it important?
感到幸运吧。
Feel fortunate.
时间对你来说重要吗？
Is the time important to you?
比如，如果我告诉你，你可以用十五年赚到你过去二十七年赚的同样多的钱，然后就可以收手了，你会选哪个？
Like, if I could tell you, okay, you can make the same exact amount of money that you made in twenty seven years, but you made in fifteen and you're done, you take the I 20 would
我会选二十七年。
take the twenty seven.
因为我喜欢这样，钱只是副产品，我知道。
Because I like to but the money is a side effect on I know.
所有钱都像你采访过的帕特里克·奥肖内西那样，对吧？
All of all the money does like Patrick, who you interviewed, O'Shaughnessy, right?
是的。
Yeah.
我非常喜欢他关于工作的说法。
I love what he said about work.
就像我觉得，我工作是为了能做更多工作，或者类似这样的话
It's like, I think something like, I work so I could work more or something like
好的工作带来的回报就是更多的工作。
that, The reward for good work is more work.
就是要持续下去。
You It's to keep going.
这个说法真棒。
Great way to phrase it.
所以这就是为什么二十七年比十五年更有趣。
And so that's why twenty seven years is more interesting than fifteen.
我喜欢这些东西。
I like this stuff.
对我来说，这一点美妙之处在于，我们 somehow 成功地建立了一个系统、一个事物、一家公司、这些产品，它们能够长期持续，让我们能够长久地享受我们的技艺和工作。
Like, the beauty about this for me is that somehow we've managed to build this system, this thing, this company, these products that sustain over a long period of time, that allow us to enjoy our craft and our work over a long period of time.
而我们尽可能地掌控着这一切。
And we are in control of that as much as we can be.
市场可能会变化。
The market can change.
任何事情都可能随时发生。
Anything can happen at any time.
但我能控制我的成本。
But I can control my costs.
我能控制我的质量。
I can control my quality.
我能尽可能地控制我的宣传信息。
I can control my messaging as best I can.
我们可以随着时间推移，不断做出最好的东西，并持续改进它。
And we can make the best thing we can over time and keep making that thing.
这就是我想做的，这就是我想要的。
Like, that's why I want to that's what I want to do.
这正是我的全部观点。
This is my whole point.
我不会用我的位置去换任何人的任何东西。
Don't want to trade my position with anybody for anything.
我也能欣赏别人所做的事。
I can love what other people do, too.
我真的会。
I do.
到处都有很棒的产品。
Like, there's great products all over the place.
我会想，哇，有人做出了这么了不起的东西。
And I'm like, Wow, that's an amazing thing that someone made.
Like, for example, one of my favorite products is the Concept2 rower.
Like, for example, one of my favorite products is the Concept2 rower.
Are you familiar with this?
Are you familiar with this?
Yes.
Yes.
I don't know anything about the company, but I can reverse engineer that I bet it's a badass killer company, too.
I don't know anything about the company, but I can reverse engineer that I bet it's a badass killer company, too.
Because that's how I look at things, by the way.
Because that's how I look at things, by the way.
I look at the products, not the companies.
I look at the products, not the companies.
I look at the products and go, Oh, that's a great product.
I look at the products and go, Oh, that's a great product.
I bet that's a great company.
I bet that's a great company.
或者这个产品嘛，我不喜欢这个产品。
Or This product is, Nah, I don't like this product.
我猜这家公司挺
I bet the company's kind
我是为人们做这件事的。
of I do this for people.
你可以
You can
做出好产品的人，很可能是个很有趣的人。
make a great product, you're probably an interesting person to talk to.
是的，我也能理解这种逆向思维。
Yeah, I could see that reverse thing as well.
我的意思是，再强调一遍，要从内看外，才能明白外在是如何形成的。
I mean, again, look to the inside to figure out what forms on the outside.
所以Concept2可能是我最爱的产品之一。
So Concept2 is probably one of my favorite products of all time.
Concept2划船机。
The Concept2 Rower.
他们的自行车也不错，还生产滑雪机，但划船机是我最钟爱的器械。
Their bikes are good too, and they make a ski machine too, but the Rower is like my favorite machine.
我非常喜欢它，因为它的做工非常出色。
And I love it because it is so well built.
首先，它的价格不到一千美元，而且我觉得这个价格已经保持了很久，这款产品也已经存在很久了。
First of all, it's under a thousand bucks and it's been under a thousand bucks, I think, forever, and it's been around forever.
它有过不同的版本，但始终在同一个主题上不断改进。
There's been different variations of it, but they're always improving on a theme.
每一代产品大致相同，但稍微更好了一些。
It's roughly the same thing every iteration, but slightly better.
它装在一个大箱子里，非常容易评估。
It comes in a big box, very easy to assess.
它是一台大型设备，但组装起来非常简单。
It's a big machine, but comes, it's very easy to assemble.
显示屏是黑白LCD，甚至不是LED，而是带有五个橡胶化按钮的LCD。
The display is black and white LCD, not even LED, LCD with like five rubberized buttons.
然后我觉得还有另外两个按钮。
And then I think there's two other ones.
它使用C型或D型电池供电。
It runs on C or D batteries.
不需要交流电，不用插电，也不用充电。
No electricity, no plugging in, no recharging.
天哪，没电了，换几节新电池吧。
Oh shit, like it's done, get some new batteries.
它就是这么简单好用。
Like it just works.
你按的按钮，没有触摸屏。
The buttons you press, there's no touch screens.
这东西非常可靠。
The thing is reliable.
它总是能正常工作。
It always works.
它极其耐用。
It's incredibly durable.
它只做它该做的事，别无其他。
It does exactly what it's supposed to do with nothing else.
我看着它，心想：这才是完美的产品。
And I look at that and I go, That is a perfect product.
这是我见过为数不多的完美产品之一。
One of the few perfect products I've ever seen.
就像回形针和Concept2划船机一样。
Like a paperclip and a Concept2 rower.
这两样东西都很难再改进了。
Like, hard to improve on both of those things.
我对这种东西深感钦佩。
Like, I have deep admiration for that kind of thing.
我仍然不想用我的公司去换他们的，因为我根本不知道他们做什么。
I still wouldn't want to trade my company for theirs because I don't know anything about what they do.
我知道我做什么。
I know what I do.
但我仍然可以尊重和钦佩各种各样的东西和各种各样的公司，但我还是不想成为他们。
But I can still, like, respect and admire all sorts of things and all sorts of companies, but I still wouldn't want to be them.
我喜欢我们所做的事情。
I like what we do.
我喜欢我能长期做这件事。
And I like that I can do it for a long period of time.
而且我希望，只要我还想做，我就会一直做下去。
And hopefully, I'll do it for as long as I feel like I want to do it.
然后在某个时候，我们会决定不再继续做了。
And then at some point, we'll decide that we're not going to do it anymore.
我不知道那会是什么时候。
And I don't know when that'll be.
关于 Bayt 播客
Bayt 提供中文+原文双语音频和字幕，帮助你打破语言障碍，轻松听懂全球优质播客。