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在听你很多内容时，你反复提到的一个主题是，你钦佩企业家，而你发现成功企业家的共同点在于他们几乎是狂热分子。
One of your themes that comes out in listening to a lot of your is you admire entrepreneurs and you find one of the common threads for the successful entrepreneurs be those who are basically fanatics.
他们全身心投入到自己的事业中。
They just are into their businesses.
我刚听了迈克尔·戴尔的访谈。
I just listened to Michael Dell.
我的意思是，迈克尔，他就是这样说的，甚至在这一集一开始他就引用了他的话。
Mean, Michael, it's like he says, and he even started off the episode by quoting him.
他说：‘你每天工作多少时间？’
He says, Well, how much time did you work?
他回答：‘一直都在工作。’
And he said, All the time.
一直都在工作。
All of the time.
这常常是企业家的共同特点：他们甚至不会去想‘工作’这件事，迈克尔不区分工作和娱乐，我认为我也一样。
And that's a theme for oftentimes for entrepreneurs that they are so it's not like they're even think about working, Michael doesn't make a distinction, I don't think, between work and play, neither do I.
因为当你真正享受的时候，这还能算是工作吗？
Because when you're really enjoying it, is it work?
我的意思是，你在做自己想做的事，而且充满乐趣。
I mean, you're doing what you want to do and it's playful.
所以虽然花了很多时间，但你根本不会觉得是在工作，因为你每分每秒都乐在其中。
So it takes a lot of time, but you're not thinking about it because you're loving every minute of it.
你享受这个过程。
You're enjoying it.
托德·格雷夫斯也是如此。
That comes through with the Todd Graves one as well.
我的意思是，他太热爱自己的事业了。
I mean, he just loved his business so much.
所以这些创业者都全身心投入。
And so all these entrepreneurs, they're 100% in.
他们的时间都花在了这里。
And that's where their time goes.
你问迈克尔，他是不是有点像文艺复兴时期的人，或者他是不是在做很多不同的事情。
You ask Michael if he was kind of like a Renaissance man or if he was doing a lot of different things.
答案是：不，不，其实不是。
It's like, No, no, not really.
我认为这对大多数创业者来说也是如此。
I think that's also true for most entrepreneurs.
他们通常专注于少数几件事，而且主要还是专注于自己的事业。
They're pretty focused on a few things, and mostly they're focused on their business.
是的。
Yeah.
就像我们刚才开始录音前聊的那样，我实际上是在向你寻求建议，因为我觉得我自己就跟这类人一样。
To the conversation we're just having before we started recording, you know, I'm essentially seeking your counsel because I think I'm just like these kind of people.
你不会花十年时间来做这个播客，读四百本书。
Like, you wouldn't spend ten years making this podcast, reading 400 of these books.
顺便说一句，你的书非常棒，我们今天会详细聊到。
Your book is excellent, by the way, which we'll talk a lot about today.
我没料到会从这里开始。
I wasn't expecting to start here.
如果你不觉得你和他们相似，或者他们身上有什么吸引你的地方。
If you didn't think that you were similar or there was something about them that was attractive.
我觉得我整个生命就是我的工作。
And I feel like essentially my entire life is my work.
现在，我认为我们之间有一样共同点，而且我们之前也相处了好几个小时，这一点在你的书中非常明显，对你本人也是如此——我不知道你是否用过这个词，但在我看来，你绝对是个传教士。
Now, I think one thing that we share together, and we spent several hours together too, is very obvious in your book, but also with you, you viewed yourself I don't know if you use this word, but to me, you're definitely a missionary.
我想和你聊的一件事是，我跟很多创始人也谈过这个。
And one of the things I want to talk to you about, I talked to a lot of founders about this.
所以这并不是那种常见的联合创始人冲突。
So it's not like a lot of co founder conflict.
而且很明显，尤其是当你是个传教士时，你不会只是想：哦，我只是想开一家杂货店，让人们吃得更健康、更好。
And it's very obvious that, especially when you're a missionary, you aren't like, Oh, I just want to like start, you know, one grocery store so people eat healthier and better food.
你的目标是：我们要改变整个国家的饮食方式。
You're like, We're going to change the way that the country eats.
这与你的一些早期联合创始人在哲学上存在明显分歧。
And that was a very distinct philosophical mismatch from some of your early co founders.
你能谈谈这一点吗？
Can you talk a little bit about that?
意思是，第一个项目刚开始时，我只是觉得这会很有趣。
Mean, the first one, we started it up, it was kind of like I thought it'd be fun.
我们并不是想改变美国人吃饭的方式。
We weren't trying to change the way America eats.
我们只是想开一家小型天然食品店，以更安全的方式。
We just wanted to open up a small natural food store, the safer way.
实际上，书中专门有一部分讲述了早期岁月，因为我认为许多创业者都对创业初期记忆犹新。
And actually, the good part of the book is dedicated to the early days because I think many entrepreneurs, they remember the early startup part of the business very well.
然后他们记得最近几年。
And then they remember the last few years.
但中间那段时期他们却往往忽略了。
And then there's the period in between they don't think about.
写回忆录的一个好处是，我不得不重新思考一切，重新体验一切。
One of the good things of writing a memoir is like, I got to rethink it all, relive it all.
我的原始创始人、联合创始人中，特别是马克，他只想赚很多钱。
And my original founders, co founders, particularly one, Mark, he just wanted to make a lot of money.
第一家门店，第一家全食超市，利润非常丰厚。
And the very first store, the very first Whole Foods Market was very profitable.
尽管洪水让生意受挫，但我们很快东山再起。
And even though the flood knocked it back, we got back on our feet.
而且它一直非常赚钱。
And it was just very profitable.
他说，我们其实没必要再做别的了。
And he said, We don't really need to do anything else.
我们已经成功了。
We've got it made.
我们只要别搞砸就行。
Let's just not screw it up.
我觉得，我不想只开一家店。
It's like, Well, I don't want to do just one store.
我想开更多的店。
I want to open up more stores.
他同意了，但这些新店起步很慢，需要慢慢成长。
And he went along with that, but those new stores started slow, had to grow into it.
因此，甚至有一段时间我们又开始亏钱了。
And so there even came a time where we were losing money again.
他对此非常生气。
And he was very angry about it.
他说：你搞砸了。
He says, You've blown it.
我说：不，这些店会好起来的。
And I said, No, these stores are going be fine.
它们会成长的。
They're going to grow.
我们等着看。
We wait and see.
但他没有耐心这样做。
But he didn't have the patience to do that.
这就像是种下一颗种子，你不能总去挖它，你得让它生长。
It's like you plant a seed, you can't be digging or you've got to let it grow.
你得给它时间，让种子发芽并长成东西。
You've to give it time seed to germinate and turn into something.
所以你必须有耐心。
So you have to be patient.
这有点像投资，你得让它在许多年里复利增长。
It's sort of like investing and you have to let it compound over many years.
同样，你也得让一家企业经过多年积累而增长。
Well, you have to let a business compound over many years as well.
因此，在我们开始扩张时，我逐渐意识到，没有人真正像全食超市这样做事。
So the missionary part was, as we began to grow, I began to realize nobody's really doing quite what Whole Foods is doing.
没有人拥有我们这样的愿景，像我一样，想成为一家全国性的公司，或许改变我们的农业体系，帮助人们吃得更健康。
Nobody quite has the vision that we have, that I had, to be a national company, to maybe change our agricultural system, maybe be able to help people to eat healthier.
我能同时看到正在发生的事情。
I could see what was happening simultaneously.
随着全食超市的成长，美国人的健康状况却越来越差。
With whole foods growth, America was getting sicker and sicker.
这就是悖论。
That's the paradox.
它几乎完美地反映了我们看到的情况，大卫，74%的美国人超重，43%的人肥胖。
It almost tracks perfectly where we see, mean, David, 74% of Americans are overweight and forty three percent are obese.
这还没有达到顶峰。
And that has not peaked.
它仍在持续上升。
It is still going up.
现在你可以看到，随着‘让美国重新健康起来’的呼声，人们开始意识到，我们正通过饮食方式在亲手毁灭自己。
And you can see it now with Make America Healthy Again that people are beginning to respond to the fact that we are literally killing ourselves through what we're eating.
那个在理念上不合的联合创始人，就是你们后来收购掉的那一位吗？
The co founder that had the philosophical mismatch, one of them, was that the same one that you guys bought out?
是马克吗？你们是在早期就收购了他吗？
Was it Mark that you bought out early in
是的，马克。
Yes, Mark.
没错。
That's right.
马克。
Mark.
另一位联合创始人和我在一起。
The other co founder was with me.
他原本是马克的合伙人，叫克雷格。
He was Mark's partner originally, Craig.
但克雷格其实有着更宏大的愿景。
But Craig really had a larger vision.
克雷格非常希望扩大业务。
Craig really wanted to grow the business.
我记得，我不确定在书里有没有提到过，我觉得我可能提过。
I remember, I don't know if I told it in the book or not, I think I might've mentioned it.
但早期有一天，我们刚开始增长。
But one day early on, we were starting to grow.
我们开始前往加利福尼亚。
We were starting to we went to California.
克雷格对我说，约翰，我们会遍布各地。
And Craig said, John, we're going to be everywhere.
我们会遍布全美国。
We're going be everywhere in America.
你能相信吗？
Can you believe this?
我们会让全食超市遍布各地。
We're going to have Whole Foods Markets everywhere.
他说：我打赌总有一天我们会在堪萨斯城开一家店。
He says, I'll bet someday we have a store in Kansas City.
对克雷格来说，堪萨斯城是我们最后才会开分店的地方。
For Craig, Kansas City was like the last place we'd have a store.
但他觉得：我们总有一天会到那里的。
But he thought, We'll get there someday.
我记得，等我们终于到达堪萨斯城时，克雷格可能已经退休了。
And I remember, I think Craig had retired by the time we finally got to Kansas City.
但我记得打电话给他，说：克雷格，我们做到了。
But I remember calling him up and saying, Craig, we've done it.
我们到堪萨斯城了，老兄。
We're Kansas City, dude.
我们成功了。
We made it.
我在关于你的创始人访谈中提到过很多这样的事。
There's a lot of things that I mentioned this in the Founders episode I made about you.
我没想到，顺便说一句，你在书的开头竟然这么幽默。
I was not expecting because you're hilarious in the book, by way, where it starts.
你就像个赤膊搭便车的嬉皮士。
You're like, I'm like this shirtless, hitchhiking hippie.
我刚从大学退学。
Like, I just dropped out of college.
我在寻找我的人生使命，想知道自己该做什么工作。
I'm looking for, like, my life's mission, like, I wanna do for work.
所以你不会觉得一个赤膊的、搭便车的嬉皮士会是这样的人。
And so you wouldn't think like a shirtless, you know, hitchhiking hippie.
你和约翰尼·洛克菲勒之间有很多相似之处，确实如此。
There'd be a lot of parallels between you and Johnny Rockefeller, but there definitely is.
特别是在他职业生涯的早期，他和最初的联合创始人之间存在目标不一致的问题，没错。
And specifically in the early days of his career, where there was a commitment mismatch between him and his original cofounders Yeah.
最终
Wind up
那是
That's
对的。
true.
最终，他买断了他们的股份。
Wind up he bought them out.
他说，把他那些合伙人赶走的那一天，是他回望一生中最明智、最好的决定之一。
He said the day that he got rid of those partners was he looks back as one of the smartest and best decisions of his life.
你总是想不断扩张，扩张，再扩张。
You were constantly wanting to expand, expand, expand.
我想问你，这正是我接下来要问你的问题。
I wanted to ask you that's the next question I'm going ask you.
从Safer Way的最初阶段，一直到Whole Foods，你的合伙人总是试图给你泼冷水，想拉住你。
From the very first like, from the very early days of Safer Way and then returns into Whole Foods, and your partners were kind of like trying to put the reins and like pull you back.
对。
Right.
你能跟我讲讲那段人生经历吗？
Can you like talk us through that time of your life?
我只是很有信心。
I just had a lot of confidence.
我认为很多创业者，我们并不是没犯过错误。
I think a lot of entrepreneurs not that we weren't making mistakes.
我只是觉得，创业者都相信，好吧。
I just I think entrepreneurs believe, Okay.
我是在开车来这儿的路上听了迈克尔·戴尔的访谈后得到的启发。
I got this from listening to the Michael Dell one on the drive out here, in fact.
迈克尔说，你必须犯错。
Michael said, Well, you've got to make mistakes.
这才是学习的方式。
That's how you learn.
这才是迭代的方式。
That's how you iterate.
企业家相信自己能够解决问题。
Entrepreneurs have confidence that they will solve the problems.
迈克尔喜欢解谜。
Michael likes to figure out puzzles.
对吧？
Right?
某种程度上，商业就像一个谜题。
Well, business in some way is a puzzle.
我现在又在做Love Life这个项目。
And I'm doing it again with Love Life.
好吧，市场到底想要什么？
It's like, okay, what does the market really want here?
好吧，这个行不通。
And okay, this isn't working.
我们需要减少做这些事。
We've to do less of that.
这个有效。
This is working.
我们多做点这个。
Let's do more of that.
然后你不断思考如何以客户甚至自己都未必意识到的方式为他们创造更多价值。
And then you're constantly trying to think about how to create more value for your customers in ways that they don't necessarily even know they need it.
因此，企业家相信自己能够找到答案、破解密码、解决这个难题。
So the entrepreneur has confidence that he or she will figure it out, crack the code, solve the puzzle.
所以他们愿意继续前进，即使他们并不确定，因为他们相信自己正在逐步找到答案。
And so they're willing to go ahead, even though they don't know for certain, because what they do believe is they're figuring it out.
他们一定会找到答案。
They're going to figure it out.
我认为我的联合创始人当时并不确定我们能否找到答案。
And people that, I think my co founders, they weren't sure we would be able to figure it out.
他们不想搞砸了。
And they didn't want to blow it.
他们想稳妥行事。
They want to play it safe.
他们不想失去已经拥有的东西，我觉得。
They didn't want to lose what they had, I think.
我当时觉得，失败不是选项。
And I was like, going to failure wasn't an option.
我的意思是，我认为企业家对自己的能力充满信心，相信自己能解决问题，最终取得成功。
I mean, I just think entrepreneurs have great confidence in their ability to solve the problems, and they will figure it out and win.
回顾过去，我觉得我属于这一类人。
And I think I fell into that category, looking backwards.
但你怎么会明白，你必须扩张，否则就不会成功呢？
Why did you understand, though, that you had to expand or you weren't going to succeed?
他们却认为，我们可以就这样守着这家老店就行了？
Where they thought, Okay, we can just stay with this nice old store?
因为世界在不断变化，全食超市并没有专利。
Because the world constantly Whole Foods had no patents.
我们只是一个杂货零售商。
We were just a grocery store retailer.
任何人都能看到我们在做什么。
Anybody could see what we were doing.
任何人都能模仿我们的做法。
Anybody could copy what we were doing.
我感到非常惊讶。
I was amazed.
我总是喜欢开玩笑说，全食超市一直低调行事。
I always like to make the joke that Whole Foods flew under the radar.
几十年来，大型超市从未认真对待我们。
The supermarkets never took us seriously for decades.
直到我们在纽约市的哥伦布圆环开设了门店。
It wasn't until we opened up in Columbus Circle in New York City.
媒体也从未关注过我们。
The media never paid any attention to us either.
我们开在时代广场，而不是时代广场。
We opened up in Times not Times Square.
我们在哥伦布圆环开了店，那是纽约最大的超市。
We opened up in Columbus Circle, the biggest supermarket in New York.
而且它位于地下室。
And it was in a basement.
我的意思是，我觉得我在书里谈到过，这个决定有多艰难，因为需要大量资本投入，而且地下室没有停车位。
I mean, I think I talk in the book about how difficult the decision that was because of the capital investment, no parking in an abasement.
我们注定会失败。
Was like, we're bound to fail.
但我们冒险了，这家店至今仍是全食超市业绩最高的门店，尽管现在有一些竞争对手了。
But we took the risk, and that store was still the highest line store at Whole Foods, even though it's got some challengers now.
自从我们开业以来，生意就一飞冲天。
Ever since we opened it, it just took off.
然后超市们才发现了我们。
And then the supermarkets discovered us.
由于我们获得了大量媒体报道，他们开始更认真地把我们当作竞争对手。
They started to take us more seriously as a competitor because of all the publicity we received.
他们也准备去参观那家店。
And they were ready to go see that store.
随后，媒体也开始关注我们。
And then the media started to pay attention to us as well.
随着媒体给予我们更多关注，越来越多的人开始购买我们的股票。
And as the media gave us more attention, more people began to buy the stock.
因此，我们迎来了一种成功的良性循环。
And so we had this upward spiral of success.
其中一件事是我们无法申请任何专利。
And one of the things is that we can't patent anything.
我们没有任何东西是别人看不到的。
We don't have any anybody can see what you're doing.
而且你的知识产权很容易被复制。
And it's easy to get your intellectual capital.
直接挖走一些关键员工。
Just hire away some key employees.
我们全食超市很幸运，因为在我们自己发展壮大之前，超市巨头们从未认真对待过我们。
We were Whole Foods was fortunate because we never were taken seriously by the supermarkets until we really developed scale on our own.
我想讲一个风险投资家没有投资的故事。
I think I tell the story of a venture capitalist who didn't invest.
他的基本论点是：我觉得这个市场不够大。
And his basic argument was, Well, I don't think it's a big market.
你们就是一群卖食物给其他嬉皮士的嬉皮士。
You're just a bunch of hippies selling food to other hippies.
但如果我错了，其他大型超市连锁店就会把你们赶出市场。
But then if I'm wrong, these other big supermarket chains will put you out of business.
你们无法与赛夫韦或HEB那些公司竞争。
You can't compete with Safeway or HEB or those guys.
他也许是对的，只是他们根本没注意到我们。
And he might've been right, except that they didn't pay any attention to us.
我们继续做我们的事，他们被沃尔玛迷住了。
We kept doing what They were hypnotized by Walmart.
他们太害怕沃尔玛了，以至于忽略了我们。
They were so scared about Walmart that they ignored us.
这是最令人惊讶的事情之一。
This is one of the most surprising things.
我想回到风险投资家的话题。
I want to go back to the venture capitalists.
我先谈风险投资家，然后去谈沃尔玛，因为我们吃饭时聊过这个。
I'm going to handle the venture capitalists first, I want to go to Walmart because we talked about this when we had dinner.
但在书中，最令人震惊的一点是，沃尔玛实际上在我们的成功中扮演了重要角色。
But in the book, that was one of the most shocking things where like, actually, Walmart played a huge role in our success.
我之前都没把这两件事联系起来。
I didn't even put it together before that.
你把风险投资家称为拿着信用卡搭便车的人。
You call venture capitalists hitchhikers with credit cards.
对。
Right.
在书中，你并没有掩饰对他们的普遍反感。
In the book, you do not hide your disdain for them in general.
你能解释一下为什么你称他们为搭便车的人或信用卡，并讲述一些你与他们的经历吗？
Can you explain why, you call them hitchhikers or credit cards and recount some of the experiences that you had with them
在早期阶段？
in the early days?
我的意思是，首先，我很高兴我们拿到了风险投资的钱。
I mean, first of all, I'm glad we got venture capital money.
我不知道如果没有它，我们能否成长起来。
I don't know if we could have grown without it.
我们没给他们太多股份，但足够让我们进入北加州。
We didn't give very much, but it was enough to get us into Northern California.
在拿到他们资金四年后，我们就上市了。
And then after that, four years after we got the money from them, we were public.
所以，他们对我们达到今天的成就至关重要。
So they were important for us to get to where we got to.
一旦我们有了公开市场的资金，就不需要这些搭便车的人了。
Once we had the public money, we didn't need those hitchhikers any longer.
他们从车里下去了。
They got out of the car.
我经常对创业者这么说。
And I tell entrepreneurs this all the time.
风险投资家玩的是另一种游戏。
The VCs are playing a different kind of game.
风险投资家玩的游戏是一种爆款模式。
The game VCs are playing is that it's kind of a blockbuster model.
他们追求的是指数级增长。
They're looking for exponential growth.
当他们成功时，当你遇到苹果、英伟达、直觉外科手术公司，或者这些不断复利增长的公司时，你可能获得100倍于风险资本的回报。
And when they hit, when you get an Apple or you get a Nvidia or an Intuitive Surgical or you get one of these companies that just compound and compounds and compounds, you can get 100x your venture capital money.
这就是他们所追求的。
And that's what they're looking for.
因此，最终的结果是，他们常常会把一些不错的业务强行快速扩张，因为他们想获得指数级的回报。
And so what ends up happening is they oftentimes take good businesses and try to scale them too rapidly because they're trying to get that exponential payoff.
记住，他们通常管理的基金资金只能投入七年。
Remember, they've usually got these funds where the money is only going to be in seven years.
他们必须开始返还资金。
They've got to start paying back.
所以创业者们面对的并不是可以长期持有资金的永续基金。
So the entrepreneurs, they're not evergreen funds where you can keep the money in for decades.
他们迫使创业者尽快实现规模化扩张。
They pressure the entrepreneur to try to scale rapidly.
这对一些企业是有效的。
And that works for some businesses.
这些就是圆满的结局。
And those are happy endings.
但很多时候，你会遇到一个完全不错的生意，它不会成为价值数十亿美元、改变世界的公司，但它仍然是个好生意。
But a lot of times you take a perfectly good business that's not going to be a multibillion dollar business that's going to change the world, but it's still a good business.
而他们却把它搞砸了。
And they wreck it.
但他们能承受很多失败，因为那些爆款项目能赚大钱。
But they can afford a lot of failures because of the blockbusters make so much money.
所以这就像打击率一样。
And so it's like a batting average.
他们不需要达到一千的打击率。
They don't have to hit a thousand.
他们只需要打得足够好就行。
They just need to hit good enough.
那些爆款就是全垒打，因此他们能从中赚取大量利润。
The blockbusters are home runs, and so they make a lot of money on that.
所以我经常告诉创业者要小心风险投资家，因为他们首先想到的就是要让你的业务快速扩张，还会告诉你：别担心你的烧钱速度。
So I'm often telling entrepreneurs that be careful with the VCs because the first thing they're thinking is they want to scale your business and they're going tell you, Don't worry about your burn rate.
我们会进行新一轮融资，一轮又一轮，级别越来越高。
We'll do another round of financing at a higher level and a higher level and a higher level.
但在这条路上，经常发生的情况是，业务并没有像他们期望的那样快速增长。
But what often happens down that road is that the business doesn't scale as well as they want it to.
然后你会遇到一轮所谓的‘压价融资’，也就是估值下跌的融资轮。
And then you get the round where it's kind of a cram down round, where it's a down round.
在这些下跌的融资轮中，创业者的股份会被严重稀释。
And entrepreneur's share is diluted way down in those down rounds.
或者他们直接赶走创业者，引入职业经理人，把创业者扫地出门。
Or they get rid of the entrepreneur and bring professional management in and they throw them out on the side of the road.
我总是告诉年轻创业者：不要把企业的控制权交给风投。
I always tell young entrepreneurs, don't give up control of your business to the VCs.
他们可能说得很好听，但他们的根本利益并不与你一致。
They may talk a good game, but they're not fundamentally aligned with you.
我认为对大多数创业者来说，你真正想要的是打造一家企业。
I think for most entrepreneurs, you really want to build a business.
而你可能希望在十年、十五年甚至二十年后，依然在这里继续发展你的业务。
And you probably want to be here a decade now or fifteen or twenty years from now still growing your business.
如果是这样，你就必须对风险投资家格外小心，因为这并不是他们想要的。
And if that's the case, you have to be very careful about the VCs because that's not what they want.
他们只有七年时间。
They have seven years.
他们希望获得一百倍的回报，如果可能的话。
They want 100x return if they can get it.
如果需要，他们甚至愿意让你的业务过早崩溃。
And they're prepared to crash your business prematurely if that's what it takes.
要小心。
Be careful.
这正是我告诉他们的主要观点。
That's my main thing I tell them.
你所指导的年轻创业者通常如何回应这些建议？
How do the younger entrepreneurs that you're advising usually respond to that advice?
首先，他们中的大多数人并不在意。
Well, for one thing, most of them don't care.
因为我觉得你是个建设者。
Because I think you're a builder.
迈克尔·戴尔，你所提到的这些企业家，这些标志性人物，都是建设型企业家。
Michael Dells A lot of these entrepreneurs you're talking about, these iconic entrepreneurs, they're builder entrepreneurs.
但这并不是最常见的企业家类型。
But that's not the most common entrepreneur.
你读到的传记讲的都是这类人。
Those are the ones you get the biographies about.
但最常见的企业家是连续创业者。
But the most common entrepreneur is a serial entrepreneur.
他们只是不断创办企业。
They just start businesses.
然后经营五年后就把它们转手卖掉。
And they do them for five years and flip them.
他们就像有人装修房子然后转手卖掉一样。
They're like somebody remodeling a house and then flipping it.
所以在这些情况下，他们非常有创造力。
And so in these cases, they're really creative.
他们擅长培育事物。
They're good at germinating things.
他们不想经营这些企业。
They don't want to operate them.
他们也不想长期建设它们。
They don't want to really build them over the long run.
因此，他们对试图扩大规模并不在意，因为他们反正也不会长期待下去。
And so they're okay with that trying to scale it because they're not going to be around anyway.
他们想要一次丰厚的退出。
They want a rich exit.
这种模式比你想象的更常见。
That's more common than you realize.
我想我现在终于意识到了这一点，而且我已经这样想好几年了。
I think I now am realizing that, and I have for several years.
实际上，这挺有趣的。
Actually, it's funny.
今天早上我刚想到这个故事，我觉得这其实是一个非常重要的观点：几年前，我曾和一位创始人共进晚餐。
I just thought about this story this morning, and I think this is actually a really important point, that I remember a few years ago having dinner with a founder.
奇怪的是，我之前从未见过他。
And the weird thing is I had never met him.
他是这个播客的粉丝。
He was a fan of the podcast.
但我一直在想，这家伙真的在听这个播客吗？因为他只想聊他戴的手表和开的车。
And but I'm like, I don't know if this guy's actually listening to the podcast because he wanted to talk about, like, the watch he has and the car he's driving.
后来我才知道，早在他的公司取得成功之前，他就已经在大量出售二手股份了。
And I found out he was selling a ton of, secondary before his company was successful at all.
就在昨天或前天，我得知这家公司在2021或2022年估值高达20亿美元——也就是我与他共进晚餐的时候——去年的收入却只有700万美元。
And it just came out yesterday or the day before that this company that had a $2,000,000,000 valuation in like 2022 or 2021, whenever I was having dinner with them, last year, did $7,000,000 in revenue.
哇。
Wow.
他们的支出高达4700万美元。
And they had $47,000,000 of expenses.
我当时想，你就是那个靠外表装点门面的人。
And I'm like, oh, you're just this guy this that sign.
我才不在乎你开什么车、戴什么表。
I was like, I don't give a shit about the car you have or the watch you have.
我在乎的是你创造了什么，而不是你消费了什么。
I care about what you build, not consume.
你应该为自己的成就感到自豪，而不是因为你有钱买别人的产品而沾沾自喜。
You should be proud of what you have built, not that you bought that you have money to buy somebody else's product.
这根本不会让我佩服。
Like, that doesn't impress me.
当然，我吃完饭就走了，再也没见过他，直到昨天我才突然想起这个人。
And obviously, I left the dinner, never saw him again, and I've kind of forgot about him until yesterday.
我当时想，哦，我居然花了这么多时间，真傻，大卫。
I'm like, Oh, this I spent and I was like, You idiot, David.
读一本像你这样的书，或者任何这些传记，其中一个好处就是，当你读到故事结尾时，你会被提醒：我们的生命，就像书里写的那样。
You have like one of the benefits of reading a book like yours or any these biographies, like you get to the end of the story, and you just you're reminded that, you know, our life you can come to it in the book.
我们的生命时间有限，你应该对自己如何花费时间保持无情。
Our life, we have limited time here, and you should be ruthless with how you're spending your time.
我居然给了这个连B级都算不上的人两个小时。
And I just gave two hours to this guy that was not even a B player.
他连F级都算不上。
He's an F.
你什么都没做成，你这个混蛋。
You've done nothing, you fucking joker.
和你浪费时间对我毫无意义。
Like, this is useless for me to spend any time with you.
这就是为什么人们觉得我有点疯，因为我把几乎全部时间都花在了那些有成就的人身上，就像我在这一集中说的，像你这样的人，比如迈克尔·戴尔、托德·格雷夫斯。
And this is why people think I'm a little crazy, where I spend almost all my time with people that have, I said in the episode, people like you, where Michael Dell, Todd Graves.
我痴迷于那些长期做事的人，因为时间是我唯一信任的筛选标准。
I'm obsessed with people that do things for a long time because time is the only filter that I trust.
我完全无法预测，今天刚创立公司的这位创业者将来是否会成功。
Have no idea, no predictability that this entrepreneur that started a company today is going to be successful.
我们会看到结果，这取决于他们自己以及他们做出的决定。
We're going to see, And it's going to be up to them and the decisions that they make.
因此，我更被这些具有使命感的创始人吸引，因为他们会做出更好、更长远的决策。
And so I am kind of drawn to these more missionary founders because you just make better, longer term decisions.
我不确定他是否是个典型的连续创业者，因为我认识的很多连续创业者，我认识一大堆。
So I'm not sure he was a typical serial entrepreneur because a lot of serial entrepreneurs that I know I know a bunch of them.
而且他们
And they
做
do
很在意自己的事业。
care about their businesses.
对他们来说，更重要的是他们具备一套创建企业并将其发展到一定规模的技能。
And for them, it's more they have a certain skill set of creating businesses and then getting them to a certain level.
这主要不是为了钱。
And it's not primarily about the money.
对他们而言，有趣的部分在于创建企业。
For them, the fun part is creating the business.
当你开始招聘员工并建立官僚体系时，他们会觉得被自己创造的东西束缚住了。
And then as you start to staff it up and you build a bureaucracy, they feel trapped by their own creations in a way.
他们并不适应自己所创建的那种企业结构。
They're not wired to fit within that kind of corporate structure that they're creating.
所有企业最终都会演变，或者几乎所有的企业只要达到一定规模，最终都会演变。
And all businesses eventually evolve to, or almost all businesses eventually evolve to if they get any scale.
他们就是不喜欢这样。
They just don't like that.
所以他们会重新开始。
So they start over again.
但我认为这些人非常有趣。
But I think those people are very interesting people.
我认为许多连续创业者并不仅仅是为钱而肤浅地做事。
I think many serial entrepreneurs are not simply shallow people doing it just for the money.
我有一些很好的密友，他们通过创办不同的企业赚了很多钱。
I have some good close friends who made a lot of money creating different businesses.
比如我在奥斯汀的一个好朋友，叫布雷特·赫特，他联合创办了三家上市公司。
Like one of my good friends in Austin, a guy named Brett Hurt, he co founded three public companies.
他最著名的是Bazaar Voice，它负责所有在线企业的评论功能——如果你在某个在线商家那里留下评价，那你很可能用的就是Bazaar Voice的技术。
His most famous one was Bazaar Voice, which does all the If you do a review on an online business, you're probably using Bazaar Voice technology.
布雷特只是说：‘我只是喜欢创办企业。’
And Brett is just He said, Well, I just love creating businesses.
但当我做了五六年之后，我就觉得无聊了，想再创造点新的东西。
But after I've done it for, I don't know, five or six years, I just get bored with it and I want to create something new.
是的。
Yeah.
我对这没什么意见。
Don't have any problem with that.
我的意思是，创业者的根本意义就在于你可以决定自己做什么、和谁在一起。
I mean, the whole point of being an entrepreneur is you get to decide what you work on, who's around you.
这是最重要的一点，但
That's one of the biggest But
布雷特从来不会炫耀他开的车或他的财富。
Brett would never be bragging about any of his cars he drives or his wealth.
他就是不会那样做。
It was just not he just wouldn't do that.
在和约翰进行这次对话之前，我花了七个小时，分两天和他相处。
Before having this conversation with John I got to spend seven hours with him over two days.
在我们的一次交谈中，约翰·麦基告诉我关于《创始人播客》最疯狂的一件事。
And it was during one of our conversations that John Mackie told me one of the craziest things that anyone has ever said about Founders Podcast.
在我们见面之前，他已经听了超过一百期节目，他告诉我，如果《创始人播客》在他年轻时就存在，全食超市现在可能还是家独立公司。
He had listened to over a 100 episodes before we met, and he told me that if Founders Podcast existed when he was younger, that Whole Foods would still be an independent company.
由于播客以及历史上最伟大的企业家们不断强调控制开支的重要性，他会将这一点放在更高的优先级上，尤其是在顺境时期。
That since the podcast and all of history's greatest entrepreneurs constantly emphasize the importance of controlling expenses, he would have put a much higher priority on it, especially during good times.
在繁荣时期，公司和人性都很自然地不会那么密切关注成本，因为一切进展得如此顺利。
During boom times, it is very natural for a company and for human nature to not watch your costs as closely because everything is going so well.
安德鲁·卡内基会反复强调这一信条。
Andrew Carnegie would repeat this mantra time and time again.
利润和价格是周期性的，受市场中各种短暂因素的影响。
Profits and prices are cyclical, subject to any number of transient forces of the marketplace.
然而，成本却可以得到严格控制。
Costs, however, could be strictly controlled.
在卡内基看来，任何在商品成本上实现的节约都是永久性的。
And in Carnegie's view, any savings achieved in the cost of goods were permanent.
这正是我和我的朋友埃里克讨论过的话题，他是Ramp的联合创始人兼首席执行官。
This is something I was talking about with my friend, Eric, who's the cofounder and CEO of Ramp.
Ramp是本播客的冠名赞助商。
Ramp is the presenting sponsor of this podcast.
在过去两年里，我深入了解了Ramp的所有联合创始人，并与他们共度了大量时光。
I've gotten to know all the co founders of Ramp and have spent a ton of time with them over the last two years.
他们都听这个播客，并注意到其核心主题是关注成本、控制支出，以及这样做如何带来巨大的竞争优势。
They all listen to the podcast and they've picked up on the fact that the main theme is on the importance of watching your costs and controlling your spend and how doing so can give you a massive competitive advantage.
这正是Ramp的核心主题。
That is a main theme for Ramp.
Ramp存在的原因就是为你提供一切所需，以控制你的支出。
The reason that Ramp exists is to give you everything you need to control your spend.
Ramp为你提供了一切所需，以控制你的成本。
Ramp gives you everything you need to control your costs.
Ramp为你和整个团队提供易于使用的公司卡、自动化的费用报告和成本控制功能。
Ramp gives you easy to use corporate cards for your entire team, automated expense reporting, and cost control.
在你目前正在收听的这一集中，约翰·麦基告诉我一个令人震惊的观点，涉及沃尔玛在全食超市成功中所扮演的角色。
In this episode you're currently listening to, there's a shocking idea that John Mackie told me about, and it has to do with the role that Walmart played in Whole Foods success.
这还关乎为什么其他人几乎不可能与山姆·沃尔顿和沃尔玛竞争。
And it has to do with how impossible it was for other people to compete with Sam Walton and Walmart.
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在自传中，山姆·沃尔顿写道：我们的财富来自于控制开支。
In his autobiography, Sam Walton wrote this, our money was made by controlling expenses.
如果你运营高效，即使犯了很多不同的错误，你仍然可以恢复；但如果你效率太低，即使再聪明，也可能倒闭。
You can make a lot of different mistakes and still recover if you run an efficient operation, or you can be brilliant and still go out of business if you're too inefficient.
Ramp 帮助你打造高效的组织。
Ramp helps you run an efficient organization.
Ramp 在一个平台上为你提供控制支出和优化所有财务运营所需的一切。
Ramp gives you everything you need to control your spend and optimize all of your financial operations all on a single platform.
Ramp 的网站非常出色。
Ramp's website is incredible.
请立即访问 ramp.com，了解他们如何帮助你的企业节省时间和金钱。
Make sure you go to ramp.com today to learn how they can help your business save time and money.
那就是 ramp.com。
That is ramp.com.
让我们回到沃尔玛在全食超市成功中所扮演的角色，这是你书中非常有趣的一部分。
Let's go back to the role that Walmart played in Whole Foods success, which is a very interesting part of your book.
嗯，如果我要打个比方的话，这有点像我们用了橄榄球的比喻。
Well, was sort of a if I was using a metaphor, it's kind of like we were using a football metaphor.
这就像沃尔玛是一个巨大的力量。
It's kind of like Walmart was such a massive force.
他们影响了所有的超市。
They created everybody, all the supermarkets.
记住，沃尔玛最初并不卖食品。
Remember, Walmart started out they didn't sell food.
山姆·沃尔顿，你肯定读过他的书至少十遍。
Were Sam Walton, you read his book probably 10 times.
山姆最初是从五分十分店做起的。
And Sam, he started out in kind of in the 5 and dime store.
那正是他最初的商业模式。
And that was kind of his initial model.
我记得他有个大胆的想法，就是开更大的综合百货商店，但他当时没能说服托人
I remember he had his big idea to do the bigger general merchandise store, and he couldn't sell it to where To
本杰明·富兰克林。
Ben Franklin.
去见本杰明·富兰克林。
To Ben Franklin.
他只是自己一个人去做了。
He just went out and did it on his own.
直到沃尔玛成功扩张，并开始与吉布森公司、凯马特等企业竞争时，他们才开始考虑进入食品领域。
And it was only later, after Walmart was very successful growing and they were competing with Gibson's and companies like that, Kmart, that they started thinking about food.
但当他们引入杂货商品后，彻底颠覆了传统超市行业，以至于所有超市都只想如何与沃尔玛竞争。
But when they put groceries in, it so disrupted the conventional supermarket industry that all they wanted to do was figure out how to compete with Walmart.
因此，现有的超市看到沃尔玛的竞争，犯了一个致命的错误：试图以低价与低成本提供商竞争。
So the existing grocery stores saw the competition from Walmart, and they made the drastic mistake of trying to compete on price with the low cost provider.
没错。
Correct.
于是他们试图降低成本。
And so they tried to cut their costs.
他们在店铺建设上花的钱更少。
And they spent less money in building out their boxes.
它们看起来更像仓库。
They looked more like warehouses.
环境更加冷清。
They were more sterile.
他们使用了廉价的照明。
They went with cheap lighting.
一切为了降低资本投入。
Everything to cut their capital investments down.
然后他们将人力成本压到极致。
Then they cut their labor to the bone.
很多店铺原本有工会，于是他们削减了服务。
A lot of them had unions, to they cut service back.
但他们仍然无法与沃尔玛竞争。
And they still couldn't compete with Walmart.
他们是在玩沃尔玛的游戏。
They were playing Walmart's game.
对于全食超市，我们走的是完全不同的路。
With Whole Foods, we just were going this different direction.
我们觉得，我们无法在价格上与沃尔玛竞争。
We'd like, Well, we can't compete with Walmart in price.
我们根本不会尝试这么做。
We're not even going to try to.
我们要在质量上竞争。
We're going to compete on quality.
我们要在服务上竞争。
We're going to compete on service.
我们要提供差异化的商品组合。
We're going to have differentiated product mix.
于是，我们就这么做了。
And so that's what we did.
有位风险投资家说：你们这群嬉皮士在向其他嬉皮士卖食物。
It's that one venture capital said, You're a bunch of hippies selling food to other hippies.
没错。
That's true.
确实曾经是这样。
It was true at one point.
我们当时确实是为年轻一代和更注重健康的人提供食品。
We were definitely food for a younger generation and more health conscious people.
但后来发生的情况是，当那些超市让他们的店面变得不再吸引人时，那些主要负责采购食物的中产阶级和中上层阶级女性，希望进入一家美观、漂亮、服务周到、帮她们把杂货搬到车上、对她们和蔼可亲、能回答她们问题的商店。
But what ended up happening is that as those supermarkets made their stores less attractive, we'll say to middle class, upper middle class women who do most of the food shopping, they wanted to come into a store that was pretty, that was beautiful, that was people that gave them good service, that took their groceries to their car, that was nice to them, that answered their questions.
她们得不到全食超市销售的那种产品，但她们得到的是我们新鲜农产品的美观和美味。
And they didn't get the products that Whole Foods sold, but what they got was our produce was beautiful and it tasted good.
这些顾客对我们非常友善，尽管我们身上有穿孔和纹身，看起来不像传统意义上的顾客。
And these people were really nice to us, even though they had piercings and tattoos and they didn't look like.
但他们其实觉得我们看起来就像他们的孩子。
But they looked like their children, actually.
所以他们对这件事的接受度比你想象的要高。
So they were more sympathetic to it than you might think.
因此，我们成功吸引了下一波中上阶层顾客，他们因为品质和服务而购买我们的食品。
And so we kind of cracked that upper middle class next that bought our food for the quality and the service.
随着这种情况的发生，我们的增长开始加速。
And then as that happened, we began to grow faster.
我们的同店销售额提升了。
Our comps went up.
我们不再只是局限于自己那片小小的‘嬉皮士天地’了。
We were not just in our own little sort of hippie, Hippieville any longer.
而超市们同样没有注意到这一点，直到我们真正崛起后，他们才开始关注。
And the supermarkets didn't pick it up, again, until we got to really didn't pick it up.
所以他们之前是在忽视你们吗？
So they were ignoring you?
他们确实在忽视我们。
They were ignoring us.
这就像用橄榄球的比喻重新回来一样。
It was like using a football metaphor coming back.
沃尔玛就像一个巨大的干扰，而我们则一路畅通无阻地冲向达阵区。
Walmart was like this giant distraction and we were running downfield wide open for the touchdown pass.
他们太过专注于遏制沃尔玛，这使得全食超市得以在不同的框架、不同的竞争策略下展开竞争。
They were so obsessed with stopping Walmart that it allowed Whole Foods to compete on a different framework, a different competitive strategy.
超市们在很长一段时间里只进行同类竞争。
The supermarkets only competed for the longest time.
他们真的只在价格上竞争。
They only competed on price, really.
店铺环境不错，还放着背景音乐。
Had nice stores with Muzak in it.
但他们都试图在价格上竞争。
But they were all trying to compete on price.
而沃尔玛就像是那个杀手级应用。
And Walmart was the killer app, so to speak.
他们只知道如何在这一点上竞争。
And they were trying to that's all they knew how to do is compete on that.
于是，全食超市创造了一种不同的商业模式。
So Whole Foods created a different business model.
一旦他们弄清楚了这一点，对我们来说竞争就变得激烈多了。
Once they figured it out, it became a lot tougher competition for us.
他们开始模仿我们。
They started copying us.
他们开始打造更漂亮的店铺，更加注重生鲜食品，比如蔬果，并且在价格上与我们竞争，而不是与沃尔玛比价格。
They started making nicer stores, putting a bigger emphasis on their perishable foods like produce, competing with us on price instead of Walmart on price.
他们给了你们多长时间的自由发挥空间？
How many years did they give you the run of the field?
这是个很好的问题。
That's the great question.
我觉得我们曾经拥有过完全自由的竞争空间。
I'd say we got the run of the field.
我们第一家全食超市是1980年开的，或者说1978年。
We opened up the first Whole Foods was 1980, say for 1978.
我们并没有一开始就开，直到2004年才开了哥伦布圆环店。
And we didn't open up it was 2004 we opened up Columbus Circle.
想想看这一点。
So think about that.
我们有二十到二十五年的时间，没人关注我们。
We had twenty to twenty five years nobody paid any attention to us.
这让我们得以扩张并实现复利增长。
And that allowed us to scale and compound.
他们完全忽视了我们。
And they just dismissed us.
他们只是想：谁会在意全食超市？
They just thought, Who cares about Whole Foods?
他们对我们构不成威胁。
They don't hurt us.
我们从未对任何一家超市造成如此大的伤害。
We never hurt any one supermarket that much.
事实上，当我们进入一个新市场时，他们最初会进行竞争。
In fact, we'd come into a new market and they'd compete initially.
他们会试图降价，抢走我们的一些产品。
They'd try to lower prices, get some of our products.
但他们的销售额并没有大幅下降，因为全食超市只是从众多不同的杂货店中分走了一小部分生意。
But then their sales didn't drop very much because Whole Foods would take a little bit from a lot of different groceries.
我们并不会从任何一个特定的店铺拿走太多。
We wouldn't take much from any particular one.
因此，他们只是认为，我们与全食超市竞争根本没什么问题。
So as a result, they just thought, We don't have any problem competing with Whole Foods.
他们忽视了我们。
They ignored us.
那里到底发生了什么？
What was going on there?
我不明白你们是怎么从比如说其他五家杂货店各自拿走一点点的
I don't understand how you would take a little bit from, let's say, five of the other grocery stores in the
在餐厅区域？
area of restaurant?
因为我们非常独特，所以只会吸引他们少数顾客。
Because we were so differentiated, we would take only a few of their customers.
并不是大多数顾客都转投我们。
Not most of their customers didn't switch over.
只是其中一些人会来。
Just some of them did.
有几个人会来。
A few did.
但有很多不同地方的少数顾客都转投了我们。
But a few switched over from a lot of different places.
在早期，当我们可能是方圆50英里内唯一一家天然食品超市时，很多人在周末会开车来囤货。
And in the early days, when we were the only natural food supermarket maybe for 50 miles around, we had a lot of people that would drive in on the weekends and stock up.
他们每次会买300到400美元的杂货。
And they'd buy $300 $400 worth of groceries.
他们开车多远来你们这里？
How far were they driving to get to you?
哦，有时候整整100英里。
Oh, I mean sometimes 100 miles.
当我们在一个市场区域只有一家店时，人们可能会专程过来。
When we only had one store in a market area, people might come in.
这并不是他们日常购物的地方，对吧？
It's not their everyday shop, right?
他们会专程过来。
They'd come in.
他们 elsewhere 买不到这种食物。
They couldn't get this food anywhere else.
当时普通超市里还没有全食超市所售的那些商品。
They didn't have what Whole Foods was selling at typical supermarkets in the day.
那时候，我们非常独特。
In the day, we were so unique.
我会说，大卫，在我们成立的前二十年里，每当人们第一次走进全食超市，我一次又一次地看到这种反应。
I would say, David, the first 20 we existed, when people would first walk into Whole Foods Market, I'd see it again and again and again.
他们的下巴都惊掉了。
Their jaw would drop.
他们会觉得，我从来没进过这样的商店。
It was like, I've never been in a store like this.
我从来没看过这样的商店。
I've never seen a store like this.
现在人们不会有这种感觉了，因为这种模式已经很普遍了，普通超市也提升了水平。
Now people don't have that feeling because it's more common, and supermarkets have upped their game.
但在很长一段时间里，至少二十年间，人们第一次走进全食超市时都会感到震撼。
But for a long time, at least twenty years, people were blown away the first time they came into Whole Foods Market.
他们从没见过这样的商店。
They'd never seen a store like that.
它与他们去过的任何其他超市都截然不同。
It was so different than any other supermarket they'd ever been in.
因此我们的差异化非常显著。
So we were very well differentiated.
我们处于一个细分市场。
We were in a niche.
而且没有人在这个细分市场里与我们竞争。
And people did not compete with us in that niche.
因此我们基本上独占了这个市场。
And so we sort of owned it.
但正如我所说，零售商没有专利。
But as I said, retailers don't have patents.
我们无法为天然食品超市申请专利。
We couldn't patent a natural food supermarket.
我们无法为我们的产品组合申请专利。
We couldn't patent our product mix.
我们无法为我们的市场营销申请专利。
We couldn't patent our marketing.
我们无法为我们的服务水平申请专利。
We couldn't patent our service levels.
所以规模是你解决这个问题的方法吗？
And so scale was your solution to that?
当我们扩大规模时，我们也能获得更好的定价。
Well, as we scaled, we could get better pricing as well.
书里有一个疯狂的故事，而我一直以来都在全食超市购物。
That was one of the crazy stories in the book that, again, I've been shopping at Whole Foods forever.
不知为何，我从未想过它的创立过程。
I never, for some reason, never thought about the creation.
我只是以为，哦，他开了第一家全食超市，然后是第二家，他已经做了四十年了，就这样发展起来了。
I just figured, Oh, he started the first Whole Foods and the second, and he's been doing it for forty years, and that's how it happened.
我根本不知道你是通过收购增长了这么多。
I had no idea that how much you grew by acquisition.
收购至关重要，因为它们为我们建立了地理平台。
The acquisitions were key because they created a geographical platform for us.
进入一个新地区并组建一支团队成本非常高。
To go into a new geography and create a team of people is very expensive.
我们做过几次。
We did it a few times.
我们做过，最初从德克萨斯开始。
We did it We started in Texas.
我们在北加州做过。
We did it in Northern California.
我们在芝加哥做过。
We did it in Chicago.
我们在北加州做过。
We did it in Northern California.
但其他大多数地区，比如洛杉矶、波士顿、华盛顿特区、佛罗里达、北卡罗来纳，我们都是通过收购获得了平台。
But most of the other regions like Los Angeles, Boston, Washington, DC, Florida, North Carolina, we got our platform by an acquisition.
我们收购了一家现有公司。
We bought out an existing company.
这意味着我们并没有获得很多门店。
Means we didn't get many stores.
我想我们在波士顿获得了六家门店，在洛杉矶获得了七家，在佛罗里达获得了两家。
We might've gotten I think we got six stores in Boston and seven in LA and two in Florida.
但即便如此，也足以建立一个平台。
But that was still enough to create the platform.
有了这个平台，加上已有的支持体系和优秀的专业人才，我们就能更快地发展。
And from there, with that platform in place, with already support there and good intellectual capital, people that knew what they were doing, we were able to grow faster.
但如果你看看全食超市，比如它现在有五百五十家门店。
But if you look at Whole Foods let's say Whole Foods has five fifty stores right now.
其中可能只有大约25家是当年被收购后保留下来且未搬迁的门店。
Probably of those that were stores that were acquired that still exist and weren't relocated, Maybe 25?
所以这些收购发生在公司早期阶段？
So the acquisitions were happening earlier in the company history?
是的，更早的时候。
Yes, earlier.
他们建立了一个平台，一个地理上的平台，使我们能够以这个平台为基础，扩展并在这个地区开设新店。
And they created a platform, a geographical platform, that allowed us to expand out from that platform, in a sense, open new stores in that area.
这又是我最喜欢书中的部分之一。
This is, again, one of my favorite parts of the book.
我想如果可以的话，花点时间在这里探讨一下。
And I think I want to spend some time here, if you don't mind.
洛克菲勒也做过完全相同的事情。
Again, Rockefeller did this exact same thing.
我在为你做的创始人访谈中提到过，他有一个叫‘秘密盟友’的概念，我认为这是我读过的所有书中最喜爱的想法之一。
I mentioned it in the Founders episode I did on you, where had this thing called secret allies that I think is one of my favorite ideas I've ever come across in any of these books.
他在炼油行业的初期阶段。
He's at the very beginning of the refining industry.
你则处于天然食品行业的初期阶段。
You're at the very beginning of the natural foods, you know, industry.
它实际上并不存在。
It doesn't really exist.
对。
Right.
你无疑是最有雄心的。
You are by far the most ambitious.
我在那期节目中叫你的时候，就说：哦，我本该早就知道的。
And I called you in the episode like, oh, like I should have known this.
任何想要进入一个新行业并打造出该行业定义性公司的人，当然都具有如此巨大的雄心。
Anybody that's going to start in a new industry and come out and built the category defining company in that industry, of course, they have this huge ambition.
在我看来，他们本质上就是征服者，尽管很多人可能不会得出同样的结论，因为你最初那种‘嬉皮士’的风格。
They're essentially a conqueror, is the way I think about you, even though I think a lot of people would not come away with that same conclusion because of how, like, you know, the hippie nature that you started with.
所以，你所做的一切非常聪明。
So you, what you do is very smart.
你完全复制了洛克菲勒的做法。
You do exactly what Rockefeller did.
你环顾四周，心想：好吧，我在做这件事。
You looked around, it's like, Well, I'm doing this thing.
还有谁？
Who else?
让我看看，不只是在我所在的领域。
Let me look around, not just in my area.
还有谁在做同样的事？
Who else is doing the same thing?
在某些情况下，你会从行业期刊中了解到这些信息。
And in some cases, find out about these in trade journals.
然后你不会只是说：哦，这挺有意思。
And then you don't just like, Oh, that's interesting.
不，你会搭飞机亲自前往，开始建立关系。
No, you get on a plane and you go there and you start building a relationship.
你建立了一个网络，对吧？
You built a network, right?
这是一个正式的网络吗？
Was it an official network?
这是非正式的吗？
Was this unofficial?
不是。
No.
我们给它起了个名字。
We had a name for it.
它叫天然食品网络。
It's called the Natural Foods Network.
谈谈这个。
Talk about this.
这太惊人了。
This is phenomenal.
在某些方面，天然食品行业，即天然有机食品行业，是从健康食品行业发展而来的。
In some ways, the natural foods industry, natural organic foods industry came out of the health food industry.
健康食品行业起步更早，但大多是所谓的药丸店。
The health food industry started earlier, but it's mostly what we call pill shops.
它们主要销售补充剂，还有一些全谷物和全谷物面粉之类的东西。
They're mostly selling supplements and some packaged whole grains and whole grain flours and things like that.
但大部分销售额都来自补充剂。
But mostly, most of their sales came from supplements.
但这个行业正是从这里发展起来的。
But that's kind of where the industry grew out of.
想想杰克·拉兰内。
Think about Jack LaLanne.
他在健康食品时代就出现了，是健康食品的倡导者。
He was back in the health food day and he was a health food champion.
这是70年代的事吗？
This like '70s?
什么是
What's
我们谈论的是，早期的健康食品行业可能出现在二战之后。
in We're talking the early health food industry was probably after World War II.
直到我们这一代人在60年代末70年代初成长起来，才开始出现主要销售食品而非补充剂的天然食品店。
It didn't until my generation kind of came of age in the late '60s and early '70s, you begin to see natural food stores start to pop up that were primarily food rather than supplements.
后来我们意识到，我们并不是传统意义上的健康食品店。
And there came a point where we realized we're not really health food stores in the old traditional sense.
我们是不同的。
We're different.
我们是天然食品店。
We're natural food stores.
接下来的演变是：如果我们开一家为这种生活方式的人提供一站式服务的商店，成为一家天然食品超市，会怎么样？
Then the next iteration was, what if we did a store that was a complete one stop shop for people living this lifestyle so that we were a supermarket, a natural food supermarket?
当全食超市（Whole Foods）成立时，美国只有三四家其他天然食品超市。
When Whole Foods started, there were only like three or four other natural food supermarkets in The United States.
比如波士顿的‘Bread and Circus’。
There was like Bread and Circus in Boston.
有位Mrs.
There was Mrs.
在洛杉矶有Gucci's。
Gucci's in LA.
圣地亚哥有弗雷泽农场。
There was Fraser Farms in San Diego.
就这些了。
That's about it.
我的意思是，当时有一些小商店，但在我看来，要成为一家天然食品超市，面积至少得有1万平方英尺。
I mean, there were some smaller stores, but they weren't You've got to be at least 10,000 square feet to be a natural food supermarket, in my mind.
所以我们开张了。
And so we opened up.
我听说了那些天然食品经销商，就去研究了它们，我记得那是个关键的时刻。
I heard about those in natural foods merchandiser and went and studied them and thought I remember it was pivotal.
这就像我可以对投资者说：嘿，我并不是这个概念的发明者。
It's like, I could go and tell the investors, Hey, I didn't invent this.
还有其他人也在做。
There are other people doing it.
在洛杉矶很成功。
It's working in LA.
在波士顿也很成功。
It's working in Boston.
在圣地亚哥也很成功。
It's working in San Diego.
为什么在奥斯汀就不行呢？
Why won't it work in Austin?
在奥斯汀也会成功的。
It'll work in Austin.
我们试试吧。
Let's try it.
否则，如果我没有几个已经运行的原型，可能根本拿不到资金。
Otherwise, I may not have been able to get the money if I didn't have at least a few prototypes that were already working.
我去研究了他们，和他们成了朋友，最终收购了他们所有人。
Went and studied them, became friends with them, and ultimately acquired all of them.
你跳到了我要去的地方。
You jumped where I was going.
但与此同时，还有其他地方也在兴起，比如博尔德的阿尔法法斯、新奥尔良的全食公司、迈阿密的独角兽村。
But there were others that were opening up about the same time, like alfalfas in Boulder, Whole Food Company in New Orleans, Unicorn Village in Miami.
当时也有其他地方正在形成。
There were others that were forming about the same time.
这是一个时机已到的想法。
Was an idea whose time had come.
但最初的直觉是什么？
But what was the initial instinct?
最初的直觉是，这些人正在做我正在做的事。
The initial instinct is, These people are doing what I'm doing.
让我去和他们建立关系。
Let me go build relationships with them.
然后你意识到，哦，这里的野心存在不匹配，我实际上可以收购他们？
And then you realize, Oh, there's a mismatch of ambition here, and I can actually acquire them?
不。
No.
因为他们并不想扩张。
Because they didn't want to expand.
你那里给我太多赞誉了。
You're giving me too much credit there.
好的。
Okay.
但是夫人。
But Mrs.
Gooches，我记得那个。
Gooches, I remember that one.
因为那时它起到了关键作用。
Because that was instrumental at the time.
我觉得你们当时只是在卖，就好像根本没个屠夫似的。
I think you guys were only selling like you weren't selling like there wasn't a butcher.
你们每周的销售额大概在八千到一万美元左右。
There was some kind of that you were doing like 8,000 to $10,000 a week in selling
那是一种更安全的方式。
That was a safer way.
好吧。
Okay.
更安全的方式，每周大概八千零一万美元之类的。
A safer way, 8,010 thousand a week or something like that.
他们每周能卖十万美金，而你这才意识到，原来可以增加另一个产品类别，
They were doing like $100,000 and you're like, Oh, that kind of opened your eyes that you could add the other product category,
对吧？
correct?
没错。
Bingo.
好的。
Okay.
夫人。
Mrs.
古驰早期对我们的影响很大，因为他们的销售额是我们的好几倍。
Gucci's was a huge influence early on because it's like, Wow, they're doing 10 times as much sales as we're doing.
他们的店面稍微大一点，但也没大多少。
And their stores are a little bit bigger, but they're not that much bigger.
但他们卖新鲜肉类，还有很大的生鲜部门。
But they're selling fresh meat and they've got big produce departments.
所以我们就想，我们也得这么做。
And so it's like, that's what we need to do too.
我们不能走那种安全的方式。
We can't do it a safer way.
太小了。
It's too small.
我们需要一个更大的场所。
We need a bigger location.
最终发生的事情，我是这么想的。
What ended up happening, I think of it this way.
我们某种程度上都是传教士。
We were all missionaries in a way.
我们自然而然地深信不疑。
We really believed naturally.
我们看到了加工食品行业正在发生的事，它本质上是在毒害人们。
We saw what was happening with the processed food industry, that it was basically poisoning people.
人们在吃这些糟糕的食物，过着垃圾食品的饮食生活。
People were eating this terrible food, eating junk food diets.
我们认为我们必须要。
And we thought we need to.
所以，我们某种程度上就像清教徒一样。
So we were sort of like Puritans in a way.
我们希望创造一场真正自然、有机的革命，以改变世界。
We wanted to create this really natural organic revolution that could change the world.
而我们的其他同事，他们也是传教士。
And other people that were our colleagues, they were missionaries, too.
他们这样做是因为他们真心相信这一点。
They were doing it because they really believed in it.
因此，我们最初创建了这个天然食品网络，因为我们互相帮助。
And so initially we created this natural foods network because we were helping each other.
我们会聚在一起，交换我们的财务报表。
We would get together and we'd bring our financial statements and we'd trade them.
我们并不把自己视为竞争对手。
We didn't see ourselves as competitors.
我们每个人都有自己的地理细分市场。
We each had our own geographical niche.
通过交换信息和财务信息，我们所有人都变得更好了。
And by exchanging information and financial information, this was making us all better.
更好的零售商。
Better retailers.
这有点像一个俱乐部。
It was sort of like a it was a club.
我们还经常一起去旅行。
Then we used to do trips together, too.
我们称它为野人团体，成员包括行业内的不少人，不只是零售商。
We called it We did some people that were in the industry, not just retailers, but we had a wild man's group.
我们一起在阿拉斯加和优胜美地进行过一些冒险。
We did some adventures together in Alaska, in Yosemite.
与工作无关。
Not work related.
这只是友谊吗？
This is just friendship?
一直都是。
Always.
是的。
Yes.
建立友谊。
Building friendships.
建立关系。
Building relationships.
一起冒险。
And having adventures together.
你们会不会也一起去其他商店，进行门店访问呢？
Wouldn't you guys also travel to other stores together and do store visits as
哦，当然。
Oh, a yes.
我们的做法是，大家会聚在一个城市。
What we do is we'd come together in a city.
通常会有一家主办公司，围绕一家新店举办活动。
There'd be a host company hosting usually around a new store.
我们开了一家新店。
We've opened up a new store.
你一定要去看看。
You got to see it.
当我们主办休斯顿活动时，我们在1984年开设了休斯顿第一家天然食品店。
And so like when we hosted in Houston, we opened up our first natural foods support in Houston in 1984.
我们在休斯顿举办了天然食品网络会议。
We hosted the Natural Foods Network meeting in Houston.
几年内，这家店就成为了天然食品领域销量最高的店铺之一。
That became one of the highest volume stores in the natural foods world within a couple of years.
这像是一个集体吗？还是你觉得你是这个组织的领导者？
Was this like a collective or you felt you were kind of the leader of this organization?
组织天然食品网络的那个人，我在书中提到了他，名叫彼得·罗伊，他是一个天生的社交达人。
The guy that organized the Natural Foods Network, and I credit him in the book, is a man named Peter Roy, who was a natural networker.
彼得在新奥尔良创办了一家全食公司，我们在1988年收购了这家公司。
And Peter, he started a whole food company in New Orleans, which we bought out, acquired that in 1988.
然后彼得加入并帮助启动了北加利福尼亚业务。
And then Peter came on and helped to start Northern California.
他最终担任全食公司总裁五年，并于1998年离开了我们。
He eventually became president of Whole Foods for five years and he left us back in 1998.
我在书中对此有详细描述。
I do some detail on that in the book.
因此，他起到了关键作用。
And so he was instrumental.
他为我们工作了十年。
He worked for us for ten years.
彼得将这个网络凝聚在一起，并提供了帮助。
And Peter brought the network together and he helped.
彼得离开后，我们做的第一批收购之一，是在上市前的关键举措。
One of the first acquisitions we did after Peter was we and it was key before we went public.
我们收购了位于北卡罗来纳州的韦尔斯普林格罗蒂公司。
We acquired Wellspring Grothie in North Carolina.
莱克斯·亚历山大和彼得就像最好的朋友。
Lex Alexander and Peter were like best friends.
所以彼得说，约翰是个好人。
So Peter said, John's a good guy.
我们会好好经营这家企业。
We're going take good care of the business.
我们会让它成长。
We're going to grow it.
你会拿到一笔丰厚的薪酬。
You're going to get a big paycheck.
因为我们必须上市，我不想让风险投资公司控制这家企业。
Because we needed to go public because I didn't want the VCs to get control of the business.
你
You
说他们有时试图抢走方向盘。
said they trying were to grab the steering wheel sometimes.
是啊，但创始投资者仍然持有大部分股票。
Yeah, well, the founding investors still had a majority of the stock.
风险投资公司拥有34%的股份。
The VCs owned 34%.
但如果我们再进行一轮融资，他们就会掌控公司，而且他们的目标完全不同。
But if we'd done another round, they would have gotten control of the business, and they had different agendas.
书里有个精彩的故事，因为你的父亲——我们稍后会讲到——在你的生活和公司中扮演了至关重要的角色。
There's a great story in the book because your dad, which we'll get to, plays a huge role in your life and in the company.
你们俩曾经爆发过一场激烈的争吵。
And there's like, you guys have this knockdown drag out fight.
然后他把你拉进一个房间，和那些风险投资家们在一起。
And then he pulls you into a room with the VCs after.
他把你拉进房间，说：我们必须尽快把这些人赶走。
And he pulls you into a room and like, We need to get rid of these guys as soon as possible.
是的。
Yeah.
他只是说，他们想接管公司。
He just said, They want to take over the company.
我们把他们赶走吧。
Let's get them out.
我们把他们赶出车外。
Let's get them out of the car.
我们把他们赶出车外。
Let's get them out of the car.
他对此用了更尖锐的言辞。
He used more choice language about it than that.
让我们回到他的关系网，你们当时是
Let's go back to his network, So you guys are
所以我们正在和这些人建立各种关系。
So we're developing all these relationships with these guys.
最后，我确实有扩大业务的雄心。
What ended up happening is I did have an ambition to grow the business.
他们中的大多数人想留下。
Most of them wanted to stay.
当我去北加州时，这是天然食品网络的第一次破裂，因为我们走出了本州，而古奇太太。
And when I went to Northern California, that was the first rupture in the Natural Foods Network because we'd gone out of our state and Mrs.
古奇觉得加州是他们的地盘。
Gucci has felt like California was theirs.
我说，天啊，洛杉矶是你们的。
I said, Gosh, LA's yours.
你们在那里，但北加州没人。
You're there, but nobody's in Northern California.
那里有400英里远。
That's 400 miles away.
你从未说过你对那里有任何野心。
It's like, you never said you even want to have any ambition there.
他们说：嗯，我们没有。
They said, Well, we don't.
但我们没想到最终会到达那里，而你现在却已经去了。
But we didn't think we would get there eventually, and now you've gone there.
所以这开始瓦解了天然食品网络。
So that kind of was beginning to break up the Natural Foods Network.
我们停止了财务信息的共享。
We stopped sharing financial information.
全食超市让一些其他创业者产生了恐惧，担心我们会进入他们的地盘。
Whole foods sort of created some fear in some of these other entrepreneurs that we were maybe going to come into their territories.
我不断说：不，朋友们，我们不会和你们正面竞争。
I kept saying, No, guys, we're not going to compete with you head on.
不，我是认真的。
No, mean, no seriously.
你说不会和他们正面竞争，是什么意思？
What do you mean you're not going to compete with them head on?
有些市场我们多年都没有涉足。
There were markets that we stayed out of for years.
那后来发生了什么？
Then what happened?
嗯，后来我们收购了他们。
Well, then we bought them.
你看，这是另一回事。
You see, that's a different thing.
约翰，约翰，你别谦虚了。
John, John, you have the come on, man.
你非常谦逊，我觉得这不是装出来的。
You have this you are unbelievably humble, and I don't think that's an act.
但你同时也是个无情竞争、志在必得的征服者。
But you also are this like ruthlessly competitive conqueror.
你在书里也承认了自己有多具竞争性。
Like, you admit to how competitive you are in the book.
是的。
Yes.
然而，重点是，这些人都是我的朋友。
However, but the point is, is that these were my friends.
我不希望伤害我的朋友。
And I did not want to hurt my friends.
所以我从未伤害过古奇夫人。
So I never hurt Mrs.
古奇。
Gooches.
我从未伤害过他们。
It never hurt them.
我的意思是，也许有一天，如果他们十年后才达到那个位置，而别人比他们更快地达到了，这可能会降低他们的上升潜力，因为他们走得实在太慢了。
I mean, maybe it lessened their upward potential someday if they'd gotten there in ten years or where somebody else would have gotten there before them, as slow as they were going.
但我从未直接与任何其他商店竞争。
But I didn't compete directly with anybody else's stores ever.
我从未这么做过。
I never did it.
我没有因为那个原因去波特兰，因为那里已经有Nature's了。
I didn't go to Portland for that reason because the Nature's was there.
直到alfalfas和wild oats合作之后，我才去的博尔德。
I didn't go to Boulder until alfalfas and wild oats had sort of partnered up.
因此，我和那些人建立的关系让我们可以自己选择去什么地方。
And so the people that I developed those relationships with, we could pick where we went.
现在他们害怕我们会去，但是
Now they were scared we were going to come, but
他们为什么会害怕你呢？
Why would they be scared of you?
他们看到了什么？嗯，在
What were they seeing Well, in
Whole Foods抢了先机。
Whole Foods got out ahead.
我们拿到了风投资金。
We raised the VC money.
一旦我们在1992年上市，那是一个重大事件，因为我们有了这种货币。
And once we went public in 'ninety two, that was a big event because now we had this currency.
创业者可以套现，赚取数百万美元。
And the entrepreneurs could cash out and make millions and millions of dollars.
创业者？
The entrepreneurs?
你是说风险投资家可以套现吗？
You mean the VCs could cash out?
好吧。
Okay.
不是。
No.
我说的是那些创业公司里的员工。
I'm talking about people that work entrepreneurs.
他们都这么做了。
And they all did.
最终发生的情况是，他们怎么能获得流动性呢？
What ended up happening is had no how could they get liquidity?
对于大多数企业来说，它们永远不可能变得足够大。
The reality for most businesses is they're never going to be big enough.
为了获得流动性，他们必须卖掉公司，因为大多数企业无法上市。
To get liquidity, they have to sell the business Cause most of them can't go public.
还有其他方式可以获得流动性吗？
And how else can you get liquidity?
你要么进行IPO，要么就进行出售。
You're going to either have an IPO or you're going to have a sale.
所以他们中的大多数人都看到了趋势。
So most of them saw the writing on the wall.
全食超市正在扩张。
Whole Foods was expanding.
应该套现离场。
And should cash out.
他们中的大多数来找我们，问：你们有兴趣收购我们吗？
Most of them came to us and said, Would you be interested in buying us?
比如，我们收购了Wellspring之后，特别是收购了Bread and Circus之后，当时我们支付的价格是公开的，他们心想：天哪。
Like once we bought Wellspring, and then particularly once we bought Bread and Circus, and that was what we paid was public, they thought, My God.
我们最终支付了，我想，安东尼最终得到了3000万美元，但当时我们支付的是2800万美元，因为在他套现股票之前有一段延迟期，而我们在进行二次增发后，股票价值上涨了。
We ended up paying, I think, Anthony ended up well, we paid him $28,000,000 but he ended up getting $30,000,000 because he had to there was a lag period between before we could cash the stock out for him and it was worth more after we did it when we did our secondary offering.
于是他们惊讶地说：哇，我没想到我的企业值这么多钱。
And so they were like, Wow, I didn't realize my business was worth this much money.
于是他们来找我们。
And so they came to us.
一位来自佛罗里达的叫特里·达顿的人说：收购我吧。
A guy, Terry Dalton in Florida, said, Buy me.
你们为什么不来佛罗里达呢？
Why don't you come to Florida?
我们很棒。
We're great.
所以我们确实买了他的公司。
And so we did buy him.
这就是事情发生的经过。
And so that's kind of how it happened.
他们信任我。
They trusted me.
他们知道我们也会照顾好他们的业务。
They knew we were going to take care of their business, too.
我们不会去破坏，反而会热爱他们的业务，并真正让它变得更好。
We weren't going to we were going to love their business and make it better, actually.
他们大多看到了全食超市在做什么，并且钦佩我们。
Most of them saw what Whole Foods was doing and they admired us.
他们部分嫉妒我们，但也钦佩我们。
They envied us partly, but they also admired us.
他们知道，如果把公司卖给我们，我们会照顾好他们的员工，并且会坚持我们的标准——不会把它变成一家普通的超市。
And they knew if they sold out that we were going to take care of their team members and that we were going to maintain our standards of we weren't going to turn it into a regular supermarket.
他们对此感觉很好。
They felt good about that.
双赢，三赢。
Win, win, win.
我想回到你的竞争心态上，因为我确实想谈谈这个，因为我觉得这让很多人感到惊讶。
I want to go back to your competitive drive because I do want to talk about that because I think it surprised a lot of people.
不过我的问题是，我想从你的角度和你的思维出发了解。
My question, though, I want to know from your perspective and your mind.
好吗？
Okay?
因为我现在也做完全相同的事，我四处走动，但播客并不是一种非常积极的歌曲。
Because I do the exact same thing now where I go around, and podcasting is not it's a very positive song.
其实并没有什么竞争。
There's no like there's really no competition.
这更像是更多的合作。
It's like a lot more collaborative.
但我非常好奇，我秉持着和你一样的理念，也和洛克菲勒的理念相同。
But I am very curious, and I run the same idea that you did and the same idea that Rockefeller does.
我会专门飞越整个国家，只是为了和另一位播客主共进午餐或晚餐。
It's like, I will fly across the country just to have like lunch or dinner with another podcaster.
我想了解你对你的业务以及你正在做的事情的看法。
Like, I want a download of your thoughts on how you think about your business and like what you're doing.
嗯。
Mhmm.
在你建立这个网络、结识来自不同地区的这些人的过程中，你注意到了什么？
What did you notice as you're building this network and you're meeting all these other people in all these different regions?
你觉得你和他们有什么不同吗？
Did you think you were different from them?
当然。
Sure.
我特别喜欢你的一点，就是在来这里的路上我听了你和迈克尔·戴尔的对话，让我印象深刻。
One of the things I liked about your I just listened to on the drive here with your Michael Dell, which was impressed.
我认识迈克尔。
I know Michael.
当然，我们都住在奥斯汀。
Of course, we both live in Austin.
在过去的十年左右奥斯汀成为创业中心之前，我们俩是奥斯汀仅有的两位大企业家。
For a long time, we were the two big entrepreneurs in Austin before it became kind of an entrepreneurial hub in the last decade or so.
所以我一直密切关注他的职业生涯，了解他，他是个非常好的人。
And so I followed his career closely, and I know him, and he's a really good guy.
迈克尔谈了很多关于持续学习的事情。
Michael talked a lot about continuous learning.
还记得他提到你问他时，他说：‘你得重新塑造自己三四次吧？’
Remember how he talked about you asked him, said, Well, you had to reinvent yourself like three or four times.
他说，不，更像是七到八次。
He said, No more like seven or eight times.
因为每次出现新的变革，他都必须调整自己的业务，对吧？
Because every time there was a new revolution, he had to adapt his business, right?
所以我继续学习。
So I continued to learn.
你以为他们是。
And you thought they were were.
自满吗？
Complacent?
他们只是，世界在不断演变。
They just The world is constantly evolving.
它一直在变化。
It's constantly changing.
如果你原地不动，迈克尔说过，他在和你的谈话中提到过：如果你保持不变，就会被超越，你会失败。
If you sit still, Michael said it, he said it in his talk with you, If you stay the same, you get passed up, you're going to fail.
你必须持续进化。
You have to continue to evolve.
新事物不断涌现，你必须随之改变。
New things emerge and you have to change with it.
全食超市正在迅速变化。
Whole Foods was changing rapidly.
我们正在开设更大的门店。
We were opening up bigger stores.
这些家伙大多没有资本去跟上这种步伐。
Most of these guys didn't have the capital to try to match that.
他们也没有这样的雄心去做这件事。
They didn't have the ambition to do it.
让我退一步说。
Let me back up.
我并不是想说这话是为了显得自己高人一等，好像我跟所有竞争对手都不一样。
I'm not trying to say this to be for somebody to be like an arrogant person, oh, I'm different from all my competitors.
不是的。
No.
这是一种发现机会的绝佳方式。
It's like a really great way to spot opportunity.
你一遍又一遍地说这一点，正是史蒂夫·乔布斯传记里我最喜欢的一句话：如果你仔细观察他的主要能力之一，就是他能够发现那些充斥着劣质产品的市场。
The fact that you say this over and over again is one of my favorite lines in Steve Jobs' biography, was that if you actually look at one of his main skill sets, was that he was able to identify markets with second rate products.
他觉得这些产品自己可以做得更好，或者用不同的方式去思考——从个人电脑到手机，再到他所做的一切，你都可以看到这一点。
Products that he thought he could just make better or think about in a different way, like he didn't and you just go through all of them from personal computing to the phone to just everything that he's done.
我当时就想，天啊，我直到读了第十遍这本书、读了第十本关于他的传记后，才意识到这一点。
I was like, damn, I didn't even realize that until it's probably the tenth time I read that book too, the tenth biography of his that I read.
我在你所做的事情中也看到了很多类似的模式。
I see that a lot in what you were doing too.
所以，我并不是想说，‘我比这些人更优秀’。
So I'm not trying to be like you to say, Oh, I was like better than these people.
我只是在根本上以不同于他们的视角来看待这个行业。
It's just like, no, I'm fundamentally looking at this industry different than they are.
我想知道，当你刚开始四处建立这个网络时，这一点是否已经很明显了？
And I was wondering if that was obvious at the beginning when you started going around and building this network.
我在思考乔布斯。
I think about Steve.
我的意思是，也许他选择的是非常早期的产品。
I mean, maybe he took products that were very early.
我的意思是，他可能没有发明个人电脑，但那时的电脑并不好用。
I mean, he didn't maybe invent the personal computer, but they weren't very good.
没错。
No.
让产品更容易使用。
Made it easier to use.
是的。
Yes.
尤其是他用更好的Apple II彻底改变了它。
And he transformed it with a much better Apple II in particular.
这是一个巨大的进步。
It was a huge step.
或者他最初并没有做MP3播放器，但iPod要好得多。
Or he didn't do the MP3 player initially, but the iPod was massively better.
不，他没有做手机。
No, he didn't do the phone.
不过，你可以说他发明了智能手机。
You could say he invented the smartphone, though.
那时候有智能手机吗？
Was there a smartphone?
当时没人用手机。
Nobody was using cell phones.
所以，是的。
So Yes.
但智能手机不仅仅是一部电话。
But the smartphone is not just a phone.
它是一个全新的类别。
It is completely new category.
你几乎可以说，没有人真正发明了什么，因为他们总是在把其他一些想法以有趣的新方式组合在一起。
You could almost say nobody hardly invents anything because they're always taking some other ideas and putting them together in interesting new combinations.
但从你的角度来看，是的。
But from your perspective Yeah.
显然，那时候你的感受不同，对吧？
Obviously, you felt different at that time or no?
你知道，这很难说。
You know, it's hard
很难说，大卫，因为我真的不知道别人是怎么想的。
to say, David, because I don't really know how other people are thinking.
我只知道我是怎么想的。
I only know how I'm thinking.
我只看他们怎么做。
I just see how they act.
而且我知道，这些人大部分都比我年长，这是一点。
And I just know most of these people are older than me, for one thing.
而且他们都有家庭。
And they had families.
他们更注重安全。
They were more security oriented.
他们想要财务上的保障。
They wanted the financial security.
我一直都是全身心投入的。
I just was always, always kind of all in.
所以我更有野心吗？
So was I more ambitious?
我过得很好，我真的很喜欢经营业务。
I was having a good I really like growing the business.
我认为这是企业家的共同点之一。
I think that's one thing entrepreneurs have in common.
他们喜欢扩大自己的业务。
They like to grow their business.
喜欢看到它就像迈克尔说的，一个他正在解开的谜题。
Like to see it's like, Michael called it, a puzzle he's figuring out.
但同时，经营企业也极具成就感，因为所有利益相关者都在受益。
But also, growing a business is immensely satisfying because all the stakeholders are benefiting.
你的客户在受益。
Your customers are benefiting.
你的员工在受益。
Your employees are benefiting.
他们获得了新的机会和晋升。
They're getting new opportunities, new promotions.
你看着他们茁壮成长。
You're watching them flourish.
其中最伟大、最有成就感的事情之一，特别是全食超市在被亚马逊收购前，作为一家上市公司独立运营了二十五年。
One of the greatest, most satisfying things, particularly as Whole Foods was a public company before Amazon bought us public for twenty five years, independent.
我们的许多团队成员通过股票期权计划成为了百万富翁。
So many of our team members became millionaires through our stock option program.
如果你身处一个不断成长的胜利团队，即使你不是最高层的高管，也能赚到很多钱。
If you're on a winning team that grows, you can make a lot of money, even if you're not the most senior executives.
我们给在那里工作的每个人提供了股票期权。
We gave stock options to everybody that worked there.
我记得参加过一次年度聚会。
I remember going to an annual gathering.
我们有成百上千的人。
We had hundreds and hundreds of people.
我得到了大家的起立鼓掌，因为他们告诉我：我们买了房子。
And I got this people got they did a standing ovation for me because they were telling me, We bought a house.
我从没想过我们能买得起房子。
I didn't think we'd ever be able to buy a house.
我的孩子们现在可以上大学了。
My kids, they can go to college now.
我可以退休了。
I can retire.
这真是太棒了。
This is so great.
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