迈克尔·奥维茨，CAA联合创始人

他们就像在聊天一样，你知道，他们坐在圆桌旁而不是椅子上。

They're like having conversations at the you know, they're at round tables instead of chairs.

然后我们又放了一个视频，之后我走到他身边说，这样下去不行。

And then we ran another video and then I walked over to him and I said, this is not going well.

我们得开始即兴发挥了。

We got to start to wing it.

然后我们就那么做了。

And we did.

然后我们就离开了。

And we left.

最后他们说他们不想做这个项目。

And they ultimately said they didn't wanna do it.

他们告诉我们他们想委托写一份报告，他们也确实这么做了。

They told us they wanted to commission a report, which they did.

那份报告大概有500页。

It ran about 500 pages.

他们得出的结论和我们当初告诉他们的一模一样。

And the conclusion they came to was exactly what we told them.

结果三十年后，他们才决定这么做。

And now thirty years later, decided to do it.

所以他们错过的钱多得吓人。

So the amount of money they left on the table was frightening.

我们俩都从这件事里学到了很好的教训。

We both learned a really good lesson from that.

菲尔·奈特的竞争心有多强？

How competitive is Phil Knight?

菲尔·奈特是活着的商人里最有竞争心的，毫无疑问。

Phil Knight is the most competitive businessman alive and bar none.

我，我特别欣赏那个人。

I, I'm crazy about that guy.

我非常尊敬他。

I have such respect for him.

他拿了一个普通的东西，就是这些鞋子，然后用它们改变了世界。

He took a standard item, these shoes, and he changed the world with them.

如果你回到最开始，他做Tiger的时候，那是日本鞋，那是他的起点。

If you go back to the beginning when he did Tiger, which was a Japanese shoe, it's where he started.

当时他和他的妻子佩妮，还在汽车后备箱里卖这些东西。

When he and Penny, his wife, were selling these things out of the trunk of their car.

对。

Yeah.

鞋底是平的，其实不太舒服。

The soles were flat and they weren't really comfortable.

它们是为了跑步而做的，因为他的田径教练比尔·鲍尔曼。

They were made for running because of his track coach, Bill Bowerman.

也是他的联合创始人。

And his co founder.

对。

Yeah.

对。

Yeah.

但突然之间，鞋底变得更软，鞋跟更高，颜色也更多了。

But all of a sudden they get cushier, the heels get higher, they're in colors.

我喜欢上网定制鞋子，我觉得那是最有趣的事了。

I love going online and doing the customization I just think it's the most fun thing imaginable.

我问这个是因为在我为另一个播客采访过的所有创始人里，最争强好胜的，我觉得迈克尔·乔丹算一个。

The reason I asked is because out of all the people I've read for my other podcast founders, the most ruthlessly competitive, I pay like Michael Jordan up there.

我觉得拉里·埃里森、年轻的比尔·盖茨肯定也是这样的。

I think Larry Ellison, young Bill Gates, definitely like this.

但迈克尔·乔丹很坦诚，他就说，我没有赌博问题。

But Michael Jordan is open, he's just like, know, I don't have a gambling problem.

我有的是竞争问题，一种竞争成瘾。

I have a competitive a competition prox

问题。

problem.

科比会讲一些故事，他说迈克尔·乔丹就像我的大哥一样。

And Kobe would tell stories about he's like Kobe's like, you know, Michael Jordan's my older brother.

我在篮球上很有竞争心。

I'm competitive when it comes to basketball.

但迈克尔对什么都较劲。

Michael's competitive with everything.

比如，谁吃沙拉吃得最快？

Like, who can eat the salad the fastest?

他就是对竞争上瘾。

Or just he's just got an addiction to competition.

不过，我最近读了一本关于迈克尔·乔丹的冷门传记。

And yet I was reading this obscure biography of Michael Jordan.

我觉得那本书是在他退役之前写的。

I think it was written before he retired.

书里讲到，在迈克尔签约耐克后的头几年里。

And they were talking about in the history, this is after Michael was signed to Nike and within the first few years.

一开始很成功，但后来有个人在迈克尔·乔丹耳边吹风，想说服他转投其他品牌。

Immediate success, but then there's this guy that got in Michael Jordan's ear to maybe convince him to go and launch with somebody else.

他们开了个会，基本上就是耐克内部有人警告他们。

And they had a meeting where they're essentially, somebody in Nike warned them.

他们说，你不明白。

They're like, you don't understand.

菲尔·奈特是地球上最有竞争心的人。

Phil Knight is the most competitive person on the planet.

如果你这么做，背叛了他，他会追你到天涯海角。

If you do this and you betray him, like, will chase you to the ends of the earth.

我记得读那本书的时候，他们是在对一个最有竞争心的人说这话。

And I just remember reading that book and, like, they're saying this to one of the most competitive people.

他们说，不。

They're saying, no.

你觉得迈克尔·乔丹很有竞争心。

You think Michael Jordan's competitive.

你还没见识过这位的厉害呢。

You haven't seen anything with this guy.

我觉得好笑的是，在《鞋狗》里，虽然是自传，他写的是，是的，我是个挺好胜的人。

And the reason I think it's funny is because in Shoe Dog, obviously autobiography, he's like, yeah, I'm a pretty competitive fellow.

我就觉得，这说法也太轻描淡写了吧。

I'm like, that might be an understatement.

我得说，大卫，我现在正想着要不要结束这期播客，因为你没把我列为你见过的最好胜的人之一，我真的很不爽。

I have to say, David, I'm thinking right now about ending the podcast because I really am upset that you didn't name me as one of the most competitive people you've met.

不，你看，说到底，咱们直说吧，这不太政治正确。

No, look, at the end of the day, let's be straight out about it, it's not politically correct.

但商业就是一场竞争激烈、你死我活的运动。

But business is a competitive cutthroat sport.

我不是说你可以做不道德或违法的事，你得有底线。

Now I'm not saying you do anything immoral or illegal and you have to have guidelines.

但如果你不愿意像魔术师约翰逊在球场上那样拼，或者像迈克尔·乔丹，或者那些伟大的球员那样，我是从欧文那里学到的。

But if you're not willing to get out there and do what Magic Johnson did on the court, or Michael Jordan, or any of the greats, I learned it from Irvin.

欧文，我非常喜欢他，也帮他开启了商业生涯，我提这个是因为他在自传和其他场合对我好得不得了。

Irvin, who I am crazy about, who I helped start his business career, I only mention it because he's been kind to me beyond belief in his autobiography and everything else.

他来找我说，我想做生意。

He came to me and said, Look, I want to be in business.

那时候没有其他运动员这么说过。

No other athletes at that time said that.

他们服役完，到35岁就结束了。

And they did their service and 35, they were done.

欧文说，我退役后想成为一名商人。

Irvin said, When I'm done, I want to be able to be a businessman.

然后我们就一起规划了那条路。

And we went and set that course.

我从欧文身上学到的一课，对我建立CAA帮助巨大，那就是当他打快攻，也就是所谓的“表演时刻”时，他唯一的念头就是得分。

What I learned from Irvin was an extraordinary lesson that helped me build CAA, which was when he was doing the fast break on what was referred to as showtime down that court, he had no goal except to score.

他不在乎是谁把球送进篮筐的。

And he didn't care who got that ball in the basket.

他只需要把球带进去。

He just had to get in there.

然后你有四个人，二对二，沿着那个半场跑，三对一。

And you had four guys, two-two, running down that quarter, three-one.

他带着球，沿着球场移动，他会选择他认为能投进的那个人，而且他对此毫无私心。

With him carrying that ball, and he'd move down that court, he would pick whoever he thought could make that shot, And he had no ego about it.

那你是怎么运用这个想法的？

So how'd you use that idea?

因为

Because

归根结底是为了赢。

it was about winning at the end of the day.

这是关于竞争。

It's about competition.

这是关于不掺杂个人私心。

It's about not having an ego about it.

我们在CAA做的一件很棒的事情就是，我不在乎谁得分。

One of the great things we did at CAA is I didn't care who scored.

我只想要得分。

I just wanted a score.

在CAA，当我们请人做事时，即使是最年轻的人，我们也从不要求他们做我们自己不愿意做的事情。

And when we ask people to do things at CAA, even the youngest people, We never asked them to do anything we wouldn't do ourselves.

如果他们做得慢，我们就会亲自去做，以证明这一点。

And if they were slow on it, went and did it to prove a point.

我无法告诉你，每周有多少次在早会上，我或某个部门主管请某人做某事。

I can't tell you how many times a week in a morning meeting where I asked someone to do something or one of the department heads asked someone to do something.

但到下午五点还没完成。

And it didn't get done by 05:00.

我们中的一个人就会去做。

One of us did it.

我在读《从零到一》这本书时，发现了我一直以来最喜欢的一句话。

I found one of my all time favorite quotes when I was reading the book Zero to One.

那句名言是这么说的：我注意到的最强大的一个模式就是，成功的人总能在意想不到的地方发现价值，而他们之所以能做到，是因为他们从基本原理出发去思考商业，而不是套用现成的公式。

The quote says, the single most powerful pattern I have noticed is that successful people find value in unexpected places, and they do this by thinking about business from first principles instead of formulas.

这正是AppLovin在广告平台上所做的。

That is exactly what AppLovin has done with their advertising platform.

AppLovin能让你接触到移动游戏里超过十亿的潜在新客户。

AppLovin connects you with over a billion potential new customers inside mobile games.

AppLovin能让你抓住用户全部的注意力。

AppLovin allows you to capture undivided attention.

AppLovin的广告是全屏视频广告，平均观看时长达到三十五秒。

AppLovin ads are full screen video ads that are watched for an average of thirty five seconds.

这样的用户留存率，让其他广告平台望尘莫及。

That is retention that blows other ad platforms out of the water.

而且你几分钟内就能在AppLovin上开始投放。

And you can launch on AppLovin in minutes.

你设定目标，AppLovin帮你实现。

You set the goal, and AppLovin achieves it.

不需要复杂的设置，也不需要专业知识，而且AppLovin扩展得很快。

There's no complex setup, no expertise needed, and AppLovin scales quickly.

他们可以把你的广告展示给超过十亿的潜在客户。

They can put your ads in front of over a billion potential customers.

其他企业的成果已经扩展到每天数十万美元的广告支出，并且收入增加了数百万。

Other businesses results, have scaled to hundreds of thousands of dollars of spend per day, and increased their revenue by millions.

所以，趁你的竞争对手还没都上AppLovin，你得赶紧开始。

So you want to get started quickly before all of your competitors are on AppLovin.

你可以通过访问applovin.com来做到这一点。

And you can do that by going to applovin.com.

就是applovin.com。

That's applovin.com.

这就是为什么昨天那么重要，因为这是一回事，显然我们已经建立了友谊。

This is why yesterday was so important because it's it's one thing, like, we've obviously built a friendship.

我们一起吃过无数次晚餐。

We've had countless dinners.

我们花了很多时间聊天。

We spent a lot of time talking.

你那本书我他妈读了三遍。

I've fucking read your book, like, three times.

我有个想法，接下来我们要聊点奇怪的东西。

I I had this thought and this we're gonna go in a weird direction.

我和查理·芒格吃过晚饭，那时候他99岁。

Had dinner with Charlie Munger when he was 99 years old.

对吧？

Okay?

任何99岁的人都会有某种程度的认知衰退。

And anybody at 99 is gonna have some level of cognitive decline.

对吧？

Right?

这是不可避免的。

You just it's gonna happen.

我坐在他对面，脑子里只记得，我读书的时候得特别用功。

And I'm sitting across from this guy, and all I remember is, like, I have to work hard when I'm, like, reading books.

而且我会把什么都划出来。

And, like, I highlight everything.

我会做笔记。

I take notes.

我会反复读。

I reread them.

别人都说，你记性真好。

People are like, you have such a good memory.

其实是因为我读过的内容，笔记都看了十遍。

It's like, I've read the thing I read my notes 10 times.

这不是我记性好。

This is not I don't have a good memory.

但我还是会问查理。

And yet I would ask Charlie.

他坐在书架前，身后就是他的书。我看到一本他曾经推荐我读的书，我也读过了。

He was sitting in front of his bookshelf behind him, and I'd see a book that, you know, he'd recommend reading one time, and I had read.

我就说，哦，查理，给我讲讲你身后那本亨利·凯泽的传记吧。

And I'm like, Oh, Charlie, tell me about this biography of Henry Kaiser behind you.

他就能滔滔不绝地讲他建了哪些企业，公司收入多少。

And he would rattle off the businesses he built, the revenue of the companies.

那家公司后来怎么样了？

What happened to that company?

有多少？

How many?

他的商业伙伴后来怎么样了？

What happened to his business partners?

然后我们从他的书房出来去吃饭，我就说，你介意我翻翻你的书架吗？

And then after we went from his library to go to dinner, was like, do you mind if I go through your bookshelf?

他说，去吧。

He's like, Go ahead.

我猜，你知道，我拿起那本书，上面大概写满了笔记。

I'm assuming, you know, I pick up the book, probably covered in notes.

结果什么都没有。

Nothing.

完全是空的。

Completely empty.

顶多就是在页边用铅笔写上一两条笔记。

Like, maybe like one or two notes pencil in the margin.

当我意识到这一点时，我就想，天哪，想象一下他45岁或65岁时的大脑是什么样的，而那就是你要竞争的对象。

And when I realized it's like, My God, imagine what his brain was like, his mind was like when he was 45 or 65, and that is who you're competing against.

我昨天想到了这件事，因为你显然了解并读过关于你工作态度的内容。

I thought about that yesterday because obviously you understood and read about your work ethic.

我们聊过这个。

We've talked about it.

但即使你已经工作了六十年，亲眼看到这一点还是让人震撼。

But then to also see it, even you're six decades into your career.

我当时就想，哦，这还有不同的层次。

And I was like, Oh, there's different levels to this.

听说和亲眼看到，那完全是两码事。

There's a fundamental difference between reading about something and then observing it.

所以我想把这点联系起来。

So I want to tie this together.

我本来没打算聊你的竞争心。

I wasn't expecting to go on your competitive drive.

你刚进入经纪行业的时候，是不是很明显你就能比周围所有人都更拼？

When you jumped into the agent business in the very beginning, was it obvious that you were just going to be able to outwork everybody else around you?

你自己当时就清楚吗？

Was it obvious to you?

我自己很清楚，但别人都不觉得。

It was obvious to me, but no one else.

所有人都说我们会失败。

Everyone said we were going to fail.

我在威廉·莫里斯共事的一个好朋友，1974年他对我说了一句话，我到现在都没忘。

One of my closest friends I worked with at William Morris said something to me I have not forgotten since he said it to me in 1974.

那句话我永远都忘不了，而且直到今天，它对我来说都是一种巨大的激励。

It's something I will never forget, and it turned out to be such a fantastic stimulant for me to this day.

当时我们坐在一起。

We were sitting together.

一起喝咖啡。

We were having a coffee.

他对我说：你开始做这个生意真是太好了。

He said to me, So good that you're starting this business.

一年之后，你就会去找工作了。

In a year, you'll be looking for a job.

我说：真的吗？

I said, Really?

你凭什么这么觉得？

And what makes you think that?

他说，哦，你会失败的。

He said, Oh, you're going to fail.

我说，真的吗？

I said, Really?

他说，是的。

He said, Yes.

你做不到的。

You can't make it.

外面有将近200家代理公司。

There's almost 200 agencies out there.

你竞争不过那些大公司的。

You're not going to compete with the big ones.

第二件事，在那之后不到六个月，一家领先的电视文学代理公司，由我们一个合伙人的好朋友经营。

Second incident, within six months of that, a leading TV literary agency run by the best friend of one of our guys.

我们见面是想谈合并的事，这样我们就能得到我们需要的，也就是作家，因为他们是打包项目的源泉。

We met with the thought of merging, which would give us what we needed, which were writers because they're the font of packaging.

对吧？

Right?

在会议上，我之前跟你讲过这个故事，所以我简单说，不重复细节了。

In the meeting, and I told you this story before, so I want to say it fast and not repeat it in detail.

那家经纪公司的四个合伙人说，你知道，我们永远不会代理任何电影明星。

The four partners of that agency said, you know, we'll never represent any movie stars.

我看着他们说，你们为什么这么想？

And I looked at them, I said, Why do you see them?

他说，你们永远签不到他们。

He said, You'll never get them.

我说，我们会把他们全签下来。

I said, We're going to have all of them.

他说，你太自大了。

And he said, You're just so arrogant.

我说，其实我一点都不自大。

I said, I'm not arrogant at all, actually.

我只是知道我会比他们每个人都更努力。

I just know I'm going to outwork every one of them.

每次我们签下一个电影明星，大概每周一次，我们都会在《综艺》杂志上打一个整版红页广告。

Every time we signed a movie star, which was once a week, we took out a full Red Page ad in variety.

那时候还没有电脑。

This is when there was no computers.

人们真的会去读。

People actually read.

而且每周五都会登。

And took out every Friday.

每次我们签下电影明星，就把那个广告剪下来，装进信封，寄给那四个人。

Every time we signed a movie star, took that ad toward, put it in an envelope to those four guys.

接下来的十年里，我一直这么做。

And I did it for the next ten years.

现在，竞争？

Now, competition?

喜欢。

Love it.

垄断？

Monopoly?

非常喜欢。

Absolutely love it.

没有竞争的空间。

There's no room for competition.

我喜欢彼得·蒂尔在斯坦福讲的关于垄断的课。

I love Peter Thiel's Monopoly lectures at Stanford.

他说得太对了。

He's spot on.

他说竞争是留给失败者的。

He says competition is for losers.

确实是留给失败者的，因为你基本上是在和自己竞争。

It is for losers because you're competing with yourself basically.

我就是这么看的。

That's how I view it.

我不跟别人竞争。

I'm not competing with anybody else.

所以我把通话时间、视频会议时间、吃饭时间都压到最短。

It's why I keep my calls to a minimum, my Zooms to a minimum, my meals to a minimum of time devoted.

当有人跟我说要开一个小时的视频会议时，我都有点想笑。

When someone says to me, I have take an hour Zoom, I kind of laugh at them.

我说，这世界上哪条法律规定视频会议必须开一个小时？

I said, What law is there on the planet that says a Zoom has to be an hour?

我说，说实话，如果你用的是免费版，四十五分钟就给你掐断了。

I said, frankly, if you get free Zoom, they cut you off in forty five minutes.

我说，那凭什么非得开一个小时呢？

I said, so what rule is it that has to be an hour?

哦，我也不知道。

Oh, I don't know.

我二十分钟就搞定了。

I do them in twenty minutes.

我就是不信这个。

I just don't believe it.

如果是在处理关键的尽职调查事项，或者有人正在解释非常复杂的事情，那另说。

If it's a if we're in the middle of a critical diligence item or somebody's trying to explain something really complicated.

好的。

Okay.

这个我理解。

I get that.

但比如说，那种一个小时的会议。

But concept, for example, of hour meetings.

就算没什么好说的，也要把一小时填满。

Let's just fill the hour, even if we have nothing to say.

我不想闲聊。

I don't want any small talk.

这不是社交时间。

It's not social time.

我很想听听你孩子们的事，但我更想在晚餐或午餐时听。

I'd love to hear about your kids, but I'd like to hear that over dinner or lunch.

我没兴趣。

I'm not interested.

我们直接进入正题吧。

Let's get down to what we're doing.

我们在做什么？

What are we doing?

我们在努力建立一家公司。

We're trying to build a business.

我们在努力推广那家公司。

We're trying to market that business.

而且我们要尽可能快速、干净、简单、狠辣地干掉竞争对手。

And we're trying to blow out the competition as fast, as cleanly, as simply, and as brutally as we can.

因为我们的目标就是一直推进，直到他们彻底招架不住。

Because the idea is to keep it going until they can't see straight.

而且在我看来，任何其他的做法都没有意义。

And to do it any other way makes no sense to me.

顺便说一句，确实有人不靠这套理念也成功了。

Now, by the way, there are people that have done it without that thesis.

但这不是我认同的理念。

But it's not a thesis I subscribe to.

你是说，确实有人没有这种残酷的竞争驱动力也成功了？

There are people that have done it without this ruthless competitive drive, do mean?

对。

Yeah.

顺便说一句，我排除的是创意型人才，因为他们既有强硬的一面，也有柔软的一面。

They've there's by the way, and I'm excluding creative people because creative people have a hard and a soft side.

他们强硬的一面比人们通常想象的要强得多。

They're a much harder side than people tend to imagine or think.

但他们也有非常柔软的一面，因为他们非常敏感。

But they have a very soft side because they're very sensitive.

正是这种敏感和感知能力结合在一起，才创造了图像或文字。

It's that sensitivity and perceptual ability tied together that creates images or words.

但他们也有非常强硬的一面。

But they also have a very hard side.

我见过马丁·斯科塞斯在房间里把哈维·韦恩斯坦像牙签一样拆了，那是在他拍一部电影时，哈维给了他一些蠢到极点的建议。

I've watched Marty Scorsese take Harvey Weinstein apart in a room like he was a toothpick over a movie that he was doing where Harvey was giving him the dumbest notes imaginable.

想象一下，居然有人觉得自己有资格给斯科塞斯提电影建议。

Imagine thinking you could be in a position to give Scorsese notes on a movie.

对，这就是关键，不是吗？

Well, that's the whole point, isn't it?

听着，我和顶级电影制作人待过同一个房间，因为我们当时签了所有这些人。

Listen, I've been in rooms with mega filmmakers, because we had all of them.

有一段时间，CAA代理了票房收入最高的前50位电影制作人。

At one time, CAA represented the top 50 grossing variety box office filmmakers.

我们有46个。

We had 46.

46个。

46.

我当时很不高兴，因为我没有全部签下来。

And I was upset because I didn't have all of them.

有四个我没能签下来。

There were four I couldn't get.

这真的让我很困扰。

And it really upset me.

我在那儿的整个职业生涯里，这件事一直让我耿耿于怀。

It gnawed at me my whole career there.

但我觉得，如果你给出建议，然后让别人去做他们想做的事，那建议就是好的。

But I find it notes are good if you give them and then let somebody do what they want to do.

他们更懂行。

They know better.

不过说到时机安排之类的事情，那就是另一回事了。

Now on timing and other things like that, that's a different story.

但没人应该给马蒂提关于电影核心、角色设定或者镜头摆放的建议，你懂的。

But nobody should be giving Marty notes about the core of his film or the conceit of a character or where he's putting the camera, you know.

这简直是个笑话。

It's a joke.

真的就是个笑话。

It really is a joke.

我是说，这个人看过所有电影。

I mean, the man's seen every movie ever made.

他的知识就像百科全书一样。

He has an encyclopedic knowledge.

而且这很有意思。

And it's interesting.

他就像查理·芒格，但他不是靠这个吃饭的。

He's like Charlie Munger, but he's not doesn't do that for a living.

有些人天生记忆力超群。

There are people that are gifted in their recall.

我不是那种人。

I'm not one of those people.

你刚才说了你不是。

You just said you're not.

我真的得费很大劲才能记住工作中需要记住的东西。

I really have to struggle with memory that I need to keep in place for what I do.

跟我说说

Tell me

你合作过的那些创意天才，他们难搞的一面，再多讲讲。

more about this hard side of some of these creative geniuses that you worked with.

你觉得是什么让他们非得这么难搞？

What do you think is driving their need to be hard?

是不是只是因为他们对

Is it just that they're disagreeable when it comes to the

不是所有人都这样。

Not all.

我觉得他们是在保护自己的愿景。

I think they are protecting their vision.

我觉得电影制作人对自己想达到的目标有非常清晰的愿景。

I think filmmakers have a very clear vision of what they want to achieve.

我觉得他们有时会迷失方向，但他们会找回来。

I think sometimes they lose their way, but they get it back.

我和巴里·莱文森、达斯汀·霍夫曼还有汤姆·克鲁斯在拍《雨人》时遇到过一种情况，达斯汀在第一周找不到角色的感觉。

I had a situation with Barry Levinson and Dustin Hoffman and Tom Cruise on Rain Man where Dustin couldn't find a character in the first week.

我觉得巴里当时非常沮丧，因为那部电影有很多内容是没有剧本的。

And I think Barry got very frustrated because the movie was a lot of it was not scripted.

很多都是即兴发挥的。

A lot of it was done in the moment.

我觉得这部电影正是从最初的这个难题中受益了。

I think that the movie benefited from this problem at the beginning.

因为达斯汀找到了角色的感觉，巴里也有耐心让他去发挥。

Because Dustin found the character, Barry had the patience to let him do it.

这很难，因为每天都在烧钱。

Which is hard because you're losing money every day.

大家都忘了这一点。

Everyone forgets that.

然后巴里在即兴和剧本之间找到了平衡。

And then Barry found a balance of improvisation versus script.

这部电影完美了。

And the movie's perfect.

完美。

Perfect.

从头到尾都完美。

From beginning to end.

那带我回到斯科塞斯和韦恩斯坦见面的那次吧。

So bring me back to the meeting between Scorsese and Weinstein.

所以他那强硬的一面就出来了，因为他是在保护自己的构想，对吧？

That's why the hard side of him came out because he was protecting his vision?

嗯，马丁当时有他自己的看法，而且他是对的。

Well, Marty had a point of view that was right.

所以我才很快就结束了那次会议。

That's why I ended that meeting pretty fast.

首先，他就不该出现在剪辑室里。

First of he shouldn't have been in the editing room.

马丁的经纪人在剪辑室里没问题，但制片人不行，除非这个制片人和他关系特别铁，一起拍过好几部电影。

It's okay for Marty's agents to be in the editing room, but not the producer, unless the producer is someone incredibly close to him where they've done multiple movies together.

你一直

You've been a

跟很多创始人打过交道。

lot of around a lot of founders.

马丁当时那种保护自己构想的本能，跟那些创始人不是一模一样的吗？

Isn't that same instinct to protect the vision that Marty had in that situation, isn't it the exact same thing that they're

我觉得这是所有成功人士的共同点。

I think it's common denominator of anyone who's successful.

我们说的其实是让任何人在任何行业里成功的那些特质：专注、敬业、聪明、好奇心，还有保护自己的愿景，找到能激发灵感的东西，把它们记在脑子里，让它们慢慢发酵。如果它们一直留在你脑海里，那就说明你找到了真正重要的东西。

I think we're talking about all the things that make people successful in any vocation: dedication, work ethic, intelligence, curiosity protect the vision find things that give you food for the thought for the vision inventory them in your head Let them marinate, because if they stay in your head, that means you're onto something.

这跟我收藏艺术品的方式是一样的。

It's no different than the way I collect art.

我收藏艺术品是看背景的，也就是说我会尽可能多看作品。

I collect art contextually, which is I see as many images as I can.

我的大脑会吸收我喜欢的，慢慢排除不喜欢的，这就是我收藏的方式。

My brain takes in what I like, rejects what I don't over time, and that's how I collect.

所以这本质上是个背景知识的问题。

So it's a foundational issue of context.

我觉得电影人也是这么做的。

And I think filmmakers do the same thing.

对。

Yeah.

我知道你和乔什·库什纳一起待过不少时间。

You've spent a bunch of time with Josh Kushner, I know.

是的。

Yes.

尤其是在Thrive刚起步的时候。

Especially at the beginning of Thrive.

我最近刚和他待过一段时间，我们聊了很多，大部分内容都是关于他的愿景。

I just spent some time with him and a large part of our discussion was really just like about his vision.

听他说话，听他一点点梳理自己的想法，我就觉得，你说的“保护愿景”这个说法挺有意思的。

And from hearing him speak and just listening to him like kind of map every his thoughts out, It was like, you said protecting the the vision is an interesting way to think about it.

我是这么想的，我读过一个人的传记。

Way I thought about it, I read this biography of this guy.

他是个工程师。

He was an engineer.

他创办了哈曼卡顿，就是那个做高端音响设备的公司。

Started Harman Kardon, the high end audio equipment.

那我说的是西德尼·哈曼的时候吗？

And when I was Sidney Harman?

对。

Yeah.

没错。

Exactly.

他是我很熟的一位朋友。

He was a guy I knew well.

是的，他有一本很棒的书。

Yeah, he's got a great book.

我记得他的自传叫《管好你的事》。

I think the autobiography is called Mind Your Business.

我读过。

I've read it.

他是个了不起的人。

He was an amazing man.

而且我是个音响发烧友。

And I'm an audiophile.

他曾经做出过最好的音箱。

And he at one time made the greatest speakers.

那款音箱叫Infinity IRS-1B。

They were called Infinity IRS-1Bs.

那是四柱式的，

And they were four towers,

不是两柱的。

not two.

他能在他竞争的领域做出最好的产品，我一点也不意外。

It doesn't surprise me that he was able to build the best product in the category he competed in.

他在那本书里描述了他的理念，但我从你和这些创意天才的接触中听到的，以及我和一些创始人的对话中，他讲得最到位。

He describes his philosophy in that book, but what what I'm hearing from the experiences that you've had with some these creative geniuses, some of the conversations I have with these founders, he put it the best way.

他说，创始人就是公司灵魂的守护者。

He's like, the founder is the guardian of the company's soul.

我听乔希讲话的时候，心里就想，哦，他就是在守护公司的灵魂。

And I was listening to Josh speak, during our conversation, I was like, oh, he's guarding the company's soul.

他想确保Thrive内部有灵魂存在。

He wants to make sure there's a soul inside of Thrive.

我是在乔希上哈佛商学院的时候认识他的。

I met Josh when he was at Harvard Business School.

他的兄弟贾里德是我的朋友，他请我帮忙。

Jared, his brother, was a friend of mine and asked me to help him with.

乔希在哈佛商学院读书时，经营着一家很赚钱的游戏公司。

Josh in Harvard Business School had a very valuable gaming company while he was in school.

贾里德请我帮忙打理这家公司。

And Jared asked me to help him with it.

那时候的乔希和现在的乔希一模一样。

Josh then is exactly the same as the Josh today.

没有任何区别。

There's no difference.

非常聪明，特别忠诚，低调，体贴，智商高，而且很好相处，同时也会坚持自己的立场。

Wildly smart, very loyal, low key, thoughtful, highly intelligent, and very easy to talk to, and will hold his ground.

但真正让他出色的是，如果你能说服他，他会愿意改变立场。

But what makes him fantastic is he'll yield his position if you can talk him out of it.

我喜欢那种坚持立场直到你证明他们错了的人。

I love people that hold their ground until you prove them wrong.

对。

Yeah.

我想说，你刚才其实把我们这次对话的主题都串起来了。

I would say since you just made you kinda like connected this whole theme of this conversation we're having right now.

我们其实就是在聊那些成功人士的特质，不管他们在哪个领域做事。

It's like, we're really just talking about the traits of people that are successful regardless of the domain they have they choose to operate in.

这在所有的传记里都是反复出现的。

And that's something that reoccurs in all these biographies.

就像，我不在乎这个想法是不是我的。

It's like, I don't care if the idea is not mine.

我就是想赢。

I just wanna win.

所以如果你能反驳我，说，不，大卫，你在某某事上错了，这种情况发生过好几次，尤其是这些年我做播客的方式，我可能会说，可能需要一点时间，但最终我会改变主意。

And so if you can push back on me and say, no, David, you're wrong about x y z, which has happened several times, like, especially with my approach to podcasting over the years, I'll be like, it might take me a while, but then I'll eventually flip.

我觉得你需要看到这种共性。

And I I think you need to see that common.

我想到了史蒂夫·乔布斯。

I think of, Steve Jobs.

我刚重新读完了《创造美好》，这是他遗孀出版的一本书，非常棒。

So I just finished rereading Make Something Wonderful, which is this book put out by his widows, an excellent book.

但书里有很多例子，就是那种他本来坚持某个想法，而且非常固执。

But there's a ton of examples in in that case where it's just like he had thought x, and he was really adamant about thought x.

然后他会去测试这个想法。

And then he would test this.

他们提到，比如海豚有什么？

And they said it's something like, what do dolphins have?

比如回声定位？

Like, echolocation?

他会抛出一个想法，有时候他自己都不信那个想法。

He would throw in an idea, and sometimes he didn't even believe in that idea.

但他还是会说出来，只是为了得到回应。

But he would throw it out and just because he wanted a reaction back.

然后信息反馈回来，就像声呐一样，就像海豚有的那种能力。

And then the information comes back to almost like sonar, like whatever dolphins have.

然后他会想一想，最后改变主意。

And then he'd think about it for a little bit and then he'd wind up changing his mind.

他刚有这个想法的时候，我在皮克斯给他做了好几年顾问。

I consulted for years for him on Pixar when he first had the idea.

那是我最开心的时光之一，因为他特别聪明，记忆力惊人，一旦有了想法就停不下来，而且能在某些事情上立场非常坚定。

And it was some of the best times I ever had because he's whip smart, unbelievable memory, totally unstoppable with an idea, and could take completely entrenched positions on things.

而且实际上，如果他同意的话，你是可以说服他的。

And actually, you could talk him out of it if he agreed.

我经营CAA的时候，觉得商人最好的特质就是，我的理念很简单。

The best trait any businessman can have when I ran CAA, I had a very simple thesis.

我愿意听取任何人的想法。

I'll take ideas from anybody.

没有愚蠢的想法，因为一个坏主意可能会激发一个好主意。

No idea is stupid because it may a bad idea may stimulate a good idea.

而且我想听年轻人的意见。

And I want to hear from young people.

对于新事物，我不太在意年长者的看法，但我希望他们的智慧能渗透到各个方面。

I'm not interested so much in the opinions on new things from the older people, but from the older people I want their wisdom to be spread all over it.

我们有个机制，每九十天，把两百人围成一圈，椅子绑在一起，每个人有三十秒时间提出一个想法，不能跳过。

We had a setup where every ninety days we put 200 people in a circle with their chairs tied to each other and everybody had thirty seconds to pitch an idea and you couldn't pass.

有个收发室的小伙子提出了一个关于有线电视的想法。

We had a mail room guy pitch an idea about cable.

我们当场就把他提拔到亚洲去了。

We promoted him on the spot to Asia.

当场就升了。

On the spot.

这个点子

It was

确实很棒。

that good.

解释一下那个200把椅子绑在一起是怎么回事。

Explain this 200 chairs tied together.

我想到的

What I came

是一个开会的概念。

up with was this concept for meetings.

我们在所有度假会上都这么搞，大家围成一个圈或者椭圆坐。

And we did it at all our retreats, where everyone sat in a circle or an oval.

随着公司壮大，从圆形变成了椭圆形，因为圆形在几何上不太行得通。

As we grew, it went from a circle to an oval because the geometry didn't work.

我们让每个人的椅子都挨在一起。

And we made everybody's chairs touch.

在圆圈或椭圆里，没有出路。

There was no way out of the circle or oval.

这是故意安排的。

That was done intentionally.

如果你想出去，就得把椅子往后推，你就能看到那个洞有多大。

And if you wanted to get out, you had to push your chair back and you could see the hole as big as it could be.

我们以此为基，确保每个人都在参与。

We would meet with that as a foundation that everyone was participating.

我主持这个活动，坐在那里，会点名那些没说话的人。

And I ran it and I would sit there and I'd call people that didn't say anything.

这样就能引导他们开口说话。

And it coaxed them to say things.

有些人一开始不高兴，但最后大家都接受了，感谢你把我从我的洞里推出来。

Some people were upset, but everyone came around in the end, thank you for pushing me out of my hole.

人们需要学会如何在群体中沟通。

And people need to learn how to communicate in groups.

但是，主持这些小组的人必须学会倾听，学会从别人那里获取想法。

But the people that run those groups have to learn how to listen and learn how to get ideas from people.

所以你真的建立了一个机制，让公司里每个人，甚至是在收发室工作的员工，都能直接向创始人提出想法。

And so you literally developed a mechanism where every single person in the company down to the people working in the mail room could pitch an idea directly to the founder.

对于公司里的每一位高管，我们都在场。

To everyone that was a senior executive in the company, we were all there.

每个人都在场。

Everybody was there.

整个理念就是，我们想听听你的想法。

The whole concept was we want to hear from you.

我第一次开会时就说，没有哪个想法是愚蠢的。

I started the first meeting with saying no idea is too dumb.

我想听到所有的想法。

I want to hear everything.

在我的职业生涯中，我最好的那些点子，要么是偷来的，要么是借鉴来的，其实都是从别人那儿来的。

Over my career, some of the greatest ideas I've ever had or stolen or appropriated have been from other people.

你知道的，我特别崇拜毕加索，我所有的艺术品都是他的粉丝。

And as you know, I'm a mega Picasso fan of all my art.

这家伙什么都借鉴。

The guy appropriated everything.

他最有名的雕塑之一就是那个牛角，其实是他看到的一辆自行车上的车把，跟车座焊在一起做成的。

One of his most famous sculptures of bullhorns, which is handlebars from a bicycle that he saw with a seat welded together.

他不是有句名言吗，后来乔布斯也常引用，说好的艺术家模仿，伟大的艺术家偷窃。

Didn't he have that quote that Steve Jobs would repeat, that good artists copy, great artists steal?

我觉得那是毕加索说的。

Think that's I Picasso,

不确定，但听起来差不多。

don't know, but it sounds about right.

但比如说，史蒂夫对电脑动画有个愿景，迪士尼当时并不认同。

But Steve, for example, had a vision about computerized animation that Disney didn't share.

他们错了。

They were wrong.

他是对的。

He was right.

就是这样。

That's it.

你明白吗？

You know?

这是巴里·迪勒的名言，我永远不会忘记，而且现在还在经常用。

It's Barry Diller's famous line, which I will never forget and still use all the time.

他当时竞争收购CBS，我记得是派拉蒙，我记不清是哪一个了，但萨姆纳·雷德斯通不知怎么把两个都拿下了。

He competed to buy CBS, I think, Paramount, I don't remember which one, but Sumner, Redstone got both of them somehow.

当媒体问巴里，他觉得自己输掉了什么时，

And when Barry was asked by the press for, know, what did he think he lost?

他看着他们说，他赢了，我们输了，下一个案子。

He looked at him and he said, He won, we lost, next case.

这对我来说说明了一切。

Which is like says it all to me.

太精彩了。

It was so brilliant.

他赢了，我们输了，下一个案子。

He won, we lost, next case.

他说得对。

He's right.

就六个字。

Six words.

你不能回头看。

You can't look back.

我特别难过，当我的朋友，我给他们做咨询的那些，他们做交易时犯了错或者失败了，然后一直纠结不放。

I am so upset when friends of mine that try to do deals that I consult on and they make a mistake or they lose it and then they dwell on it.

这真是个蠢货。

It's a dome.

事情不会改变的。

It's not gonna change.

那你回头看什么呢？

So what are you looking back for?

我不喜欢回头看。

I don't like to look backwards.

我觉得你得一直向前看。

I think you have to always look forward.

有人完全不认同我，但我是个向前看的人。

There are people that totally disagree with me, but I'm a forward looking person.

如果我犯了错，只有天知道。

If I've made a mistake, God only knows.

我觉得创始人愿意跟我聊的一个原因是，我能告诉他们可能会犯的错，因为我都犯过。

I think one of the reasons founders talk to me is that I can tell them things they're gonna do wrong because I've done it all.

商场上能犯的错，我都犯过了。

I've made every mistake in business you can make.

我也有过一些成功，但我也犯过很多错误。

I've had some wins too, but I've made a lot of mistakes.

我的目标是用这些经验来避免我的年轻人再犯错误，因为他们都会

My goal is to use that to prevent my young people from making further mistakes, because they're all

犯同样的错误。

gonna be the same.

如果他们能从别人的经验中学习，那价值简直不可估量。

It's unbelievably valuable if they can learn from other people's experiences.

我觉得，你知道，这是我从我们对话中收获最大的事情之一。

I think that's, you know, one of the things I get most out of our conversations.

我还喜欢你毫不掩饰地走极端。

I also like that you are unapologetically extreme.

你不隐藏自己是个极端性格的人，你年轻时就是这样。

You don't hide the fact that you are an extreme personality that you were when you were younger.

直到今天你依然如此。

You start to this day.

你刚才说要跳起来掐我，我记得你用的词是“掐死我”。

You just threaten to jump out of the chair, I think throttle me is the word that you used.

我是在尽量礼貌一点。

Trying to be polite.

那确实很礼貌。

That's really polite.

不过我说过，我年纪大了，做不动了。

But I did say I'm too old to do.

没关系。

That's fine.

我连还手都不会还手。

I wouldn't I wouldn't even fight back.

没关系。

That's fine.

我太尊重你了。

I have too much respect for you.

跟我说说我们能谈的那笔交易吧。

Tell me about this deal that we can talk about.

我知道你手头有好几个项目在进行。

I know you have a few deals going on.

有几个还没定下来。

Once a few are not

有一个我不能说。

One I can't talk about.

对。

Yeah.

没错。

Exactly.

那就说说你能谈的那个吧。

So tell me what the one that that you can talk about.

嗯，这个是公开的。

Well, it's public.

我可以这么说，比尔·阿克曼和我已经做了三十三年的朋友了。

I can say that Bill Ackman and I have been friends for thirty three years.

我们讨论过他在环球音乐的头寸。

Had a discussion about his position in Universal Music.

我们当时在聊这个。

We were kicking it around.

他曾经是大股东，也在董事会里。

He's a, he was a large shareholder, was on the board.

我非常喜欢卢西安·格兰奇，因为他是个懂人才的人。

I like Lucian Grange a lot because he's a talent guy.

我对所有这些公司的看法是，如果公司没有一个懂人才的人来经营，因为运营者总是能找到，但如果没人懂人才，那公司就会完蛋。

And my thesis about all these companies, if you don't have someone that understands talent running the company, because you can always get an operator, If you don't have someone who understands talent, that company is going to die.

卢西安确实很厉害，但他每年都在以几何级数扩大公司，签下所有艺人，出版业务也很棒，但股价却一直在跌。

And Lucian is really good, but Lucian is growing the company geometrically every year, signing every artist, publishing is great, and the stock keeps going down.

然后股价慢慢跌到了，你知道，比IPO价格低10个点左右。

And it crept down to like, you know, 10 points under the IPO price.

我跟比尔说，咱们把它私有化吧。

And I said to Bill, let's take it private.

他很喜欢这个想法。

And he loved the idea.

然后发生了几件事。

And a number of things occurred.

我告诉他，除非是友好的，否则我们做不了。

I told him we couldn't do it unless it was friendly.

因为比尔两种方式都试过。

Because Bill has done both.

比尔非常聪明。

Bill's very smart.

我是说，真的非常聪明，而且非常直接，这正是我喜欢他的地方。

I mean really smart and very direct, which is what I like about him.

因为你知道，我喜欢你的意见，因为你告诉我你的真实想法。

Because as you know, I like I love your opinions because you tell me what you think.

我们做了一些尽职调查，和卢西安见了面，看看如果我们真要做点什么，他会不会感兴趣。

And we did some diligence, met with Lucian to see if he'd be interested if we did do something.

给他做了一个大概的概述，明确表示这笔交易的前提条件是他来掌舵。

Gave him a 41,000 foot overview, made it very clear that a condition proceeding to the deal would be his running the show.

我们会支持他。

We would support it.

我会担任董事长，支持他，特别是在科技和人工智能领域，他非常敏锐，但可能需要一些帮助。

I would become chair and support him, and particularly in the tech and AI area, which he's very attuned to but could use some help.

你知道，在他的职位上，一天的时间根本不够用。

You know, in his job, there's not enough hours in the day.

真的不够。

There just aren't.

想想他得花多少时间在内部、外部，还有和工作室的人才打交道。

You think about the amount of time he has to spend internally, externally with talent in studios.

真是没完没了。

It's just endless.

这活儿根本没法干。

It's an impossible job.

太难了。

It's like so difficult.

但他干得非常出色。

And he does it brilliantly.

然后我们发了那封信。

And we sent the letter.

我们是公开做的。

We did it publicly.

所以没什么秘密。

So there's no secret.

没有什么见不得人的。

There's nothing nefarious.

没有人背着谁搞小动作。

No one's going behind anybody's back.

把资金条件直接摆在桌面上。

Put the money terms right on the table.

我们资金非常充足。

We're very well financed.

我们给出了一个非常优厚的Deel报价，现在在等回复。

Made a very handsome Deel offer, and we're waiting for an answer.

Deel就是让最优秀的创始人把全世界变成他们人才库的方式。

Deal is how the best founders turn the world into their talent pool.

十年来，我一直在研究历史上最伟大的创始人是怎么运作的。

I've been studying how history's greatest founders operate for a decade.

他们都有一个共同点，就是明白招募和聘用最顶尖的人才是你最重要的优先事项。

And one thing they all have in common is they understand that recruiting and hiring the very best talent is your most important priority.

A类人才会识别其他A类人才，这就是为什么像Ramp、Shopify、Eleven Labs、Uber和DoorDash这样的顶级公司都在用Deel。

A players recognize other a players, which is why top companies like Ramp, Shopify, Eleven Labs, Uber, and DoorDash all use Deel.

我认识的很多顶级创始人，在使用Deel的产品后，都亲自投资了Deel。

Many of the top founders I know have personally invested in Deel after using their product.

他们发现，Deel 是全球在构建全球招聘基础设施方面最出色的公司。

And what they discovered is that Deal is the best company in the world at building infrastructure for global hiring.

Deel 能帮助你的企业在全球范围内招聘、支付和管理任何员工，这样你就能留住各地最优秀的人才，把剩下的时间花在你最擅长的事情上——为客户创造价值。

Deal will help your business hire, pay, and manage any worker anywhere in the world so you can retain the best talent anywhere and spend the rest of your time focusing on what you do best, delivering value to your customers.

Eleven Labs 的创始人对于 Deel 能给你的公司带来什么价值，有一个很精彩的描述。

The founder of Eleven Labs has a great description of the value Deel can give your company.

他说，我们创建 Eleven Labs 是为了打破语言和沟通的障碍。有了 Deel，我们可以在全球任何地方招聘和支持杰出人才，从而加速创新，把更多声音、故事和想法带到世界的每个角落。

He said, we built Eleven Labs to break down language and communication barriers With Deel enabling us to hire and support exceptional talent anywhere, we can accelerate our innovation and bring more voices, stories, and ideas to every corner of the world.

超过四万家企业信任 Deel。

Deel is trusted by over 40,000 businesses.

今天就访问 deal.com/senra，了解他们如何帮助你的企业。

Learn how they can help your business today by going to deal.com/senra.

网址是 deal.com/senra。

That is deal.com/senra.

我们刚才聊到了你时间的成本，以及如何选择把精力和资源投入到哪个项目上。

So we talked about the opportunity cost of your time and picking which project to dedicate your attention to, your resources to.

你为什么选择做这个？

Why did you choose to do this?

我觉得音乐是未来互联网时代的关键组成部分，尤其是在人工智能的背景下。

I think music is a critical component going forward in the new Internet era, particularly with AI.

我们已经看到了。

We've seen it.

看看Suno和Udio的情况，它们拿别人拥有的知识产权，哪怕只有十秒钟，然后制作出定制歌曲。

What's going on with Suno and Udio where they're taking IP that other people own, even ten seconds of it, and constructing custom made songs.

音乐永远不会消失。

Music is never going away.

我认为Daniel X Spotify的出现，他在瑞典斯德哥尔摩的一个车库里开发出来的，是一个改变游戏规则的东西。

I think the advent of Daniel X Spotify, he developed in a garage in Sweden, in Stockholm, is a game changer.

而且我认为音乐为很多数字化的东西奠定了基础，从游戏到电影、电视、人工智能，以及所有图像捕捉技术。

And I think that music set the foundation of so many things that are digitally based from games to movies, television, AI, all of the image capturing that's done.

你不觉得在TikTok、Instagram和YouTube上，几乎你看到的所有内容，都会有人选择配乐，这很吸引人吗？

Don't you find it fascinating that on TikTok, Instagram, and YouTube, almost everything you see, someone chooses music to go behind it.

这是全球文化的一部分，不是按国家区分的。

It's part of our culture worldwide, not it's not country by country.

世界各地都有英美音乐的共同点。

There's a common denominator of British and American music around the world.

而且它是打开大门的一把钥匙。

And it's a door opener.

即使语言不通，每个人都能听懂并产生共鸣。

It's something everyone can hear and relate to, even if they don't speak the same language.

所以我喜欢这个想法。

So I love the idea.

我喜欢Bill的融资能力。

I love the Bill's financing capability.

我喜欢Lucian的管理和人才专长。

I love Lucian's management and talent expertise.

而且我喜欢我是在这个行业长大的这个事实。

And I like the fact that I grew up in that business.