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我最钦佩你的地方之一，就是你已经经营公司二十一年了，差不多是这样。
One of things I admire most about you is that you've been running your company for twenty one years, something like that.
我喜欢那些长期坚持做事情的人，追求卓越、努力变得优秀的人。
I love people that do things for a long time, people that chase excellence, that try to be great.
我的整个生活都围绕着创始人。
My entire life is founders.
对吧？
Right?
所以白天的时候，我会阅读关于最伟大创始人的传记和历史。
So during the day, I read biographies of History of Greatest Founders.
我已经读了大约四十本了。
I've read, like, four ten of them.
到了晚上，我就和创始人们待在一起。
And then at night, I hang out with founders.
我觉得我连一个不是企业家的朋友都没有。
I don't think I have a single friend that's not an entrepreneur.
然后
And then
我非常喜欢这一点。
I love that.
我总是问我最钦佩的那些创始人。
I'm always asking the founders I most admire.
是的。
Yeah.
他们最钦佩的创始人是谁？
Who are the founders they most admire?
而你的名字一次又一次地出现。
And your goddamn name comes up over and over and over again.
他们谈论的是，你在公司建设和管理方面有着非常独特的见解。
And what they talk about is that you have very unique ideas on company building and management.
他们经常用‘独一无二’这个词来形容你。
And you're they use the word singular a lot.
所以我想大致梳理一下你是如何思考构建公司、产品和技术的，然后，你知道的，传播创业精神。
So I wanna kinda like lay out how you think about building companies, building products, building technology, and then, you know, spreading the gospel of entrepreneurship.
我想从你提到的一件事开始。
I wanna start with one thing that you said.
你说公司本身就是一种技术。
You said companies are technologies themselves.
你这话是什么意思？
What do you mean by that?
在很多方面，比如，从社交的角度来看。
In a lot of ways, like, I mean, like, take the social angle.
很多公司本质上是社交技术，因为它们让我们能够全身心投入。
Like, a lot of like, companies are social technology in in the sense that they allow us to go all in.
只有在公司里，你才真正被允许每天花上——我不知道，我说八小时吧，因为这是个合适的数字——实际上，每天十四小时。
Like, the only time you are really allowed to spend, I don't know, eight I I'm gonna say eight because that's the right number to say, really, like, fourteen hours a day.
对吧？
Right?
单纯地专注于一件事，就像我们希望孩子们在学校里这样投入时间，这没问题。
Just singularly pursuing a thing is like I I mean, we want kids to spend this time in school, and that's okay.
到了大学，你就专心致志地投入其中。
And then university, you know, dedicate yourself.
除此之外，你不能没有工作，却只是沉迷于各种事情。
Other than that, like, you can't just, like, not have a job, but just be, like, really, really in into into things.
这在社会上是不被接受的。
It's socially not acceptable.
所以，创办公司成了一个完美的借口。
So, like, company building turns out to be the perfect excuse.
一旦你把它称为公司，就不再是随便摆弄几个想法了。
Once you call it a company, it's not like tinkering around anymore with few ideas.
你可以去探索各种事物。
And you get to you get to explore things.
公司本质上让你能够挑战你周围世界的反事实假设。
What a company fundamentally allows you to do is, like, just run the counterfactual to the world you see around you.
对吧？
Right?
你可以尝试去打造一个你认为本该存在的东西，然后用市场来检验它。
Like, you you you get to try to build a thing that you think ought to be there, and then you means test it against the market.
如果市场认同你的想法，认为这个东西确实需要存在，它就会以金钱的形式将资源回流给你，让你能继续做你一直想做的事。
And if if the market agrees with you that this thing needs to exist, it it it moves energy in the form of money back to you so you can do more of the thing that, you you were pursuing all along.
不仅如此，这还是一种自我融资的方式。
And not only that, it's like self financing.
比如，我当初创办了一家公司，根本没想到它会发展成如此庞大的市场。
Like, if you find out like, again, I started a company which I didn't think was gonna be, like, half its very, very big market.
在这个过程中，市场仿佛将Shopify从我最初启动的项目中提炼了出来。
And along the way, it just, like, the market to like, pulled Shopify out of the project I started essentially.
你能利用这种非凡的智慧，真是太棒了。
You know, that's an incredible intelligence to to to tap into.
所以，把这些都结合起来，你就会发现：看吧。
So you put all these things together, and you say, like, well, look.
公司的概念其实并不久远。
Companies the concept of companies is not that old.
我们才刚刚经历了大约五百年的历程，而所谓的公司其实是从一些更像准政府的实体中演变而来的，比如东印度公司。
It's like we we are on a five hundred year run and sort of kind of extract extracted from things called companies which weren't which were actually more like quasi governments, like the East India company.
所以现代公司的历史并没有那么长。
And so modern company is not that old.
我发现，如果你抱着这种观念——公司只是应对社会和部分法律问题的一种路径依赖型解决方案，它能让成千上万的人加入你的项目，这种加入被称为工作，于是大家都接受了这种安排。
I find that if you take that mindset that, like, companies are just sort of a path dependent solution to social and somewhat legal problems, they allow thousands of people to join with your project, and, it's called a job, and, therefore, everyone accepts this.
而且，你显然还能赚钱，这是一笔很划算的交易。
And, you you like, obviously, you can make money, so it's a good deal.
然后你还可以不断检验，你的假设是否成立，是否需要在过程中调整，或者类似这些事情。
And then you can figure out if it's counterfactual of yours might be correct or needs updating along the way or any of these kind of things.
最终，如果你足够幸运，你会和一群真正全情投入、充满启发性、并把事情推向你从未想象过高度的人一起工作。
And you could at the end of the day, if you are lucky, you work with other people who are really all in and, like, inspiring and, like, taking it further than you ever think.
说真的，我对公司这种制度本身感到无比惊叹。
And it's just like the whole thing is just like I I just like I I marvel at the institution of a company in a way.
因为如果公司这个东西本来不存在，现在有人提出这么个想法，听起来会疯掉。
Like, because if it wouldn't exist for some reason and someone would propose a wall idea now, it would sound insane.
从第一性原理来看，这一切其实根本说不通。
Like, first principles, none of this makes sense, really.
嗯，我听到你说了一件很有趣的事。
Well, I heard you say something that was fascinating.
当你说到我们还不知道如何构建公司时，这真的引起了我的兴趣。
It really piqued my interest when you're like, we do not know how to build companies yet.
所有公司都很糟糕。
All companies are terrible
是的。
Yes.
包括我的公司，你也说了，你知道，当你经营一家市值两千亿以上的公司时，这简直太搞笑了。
Including mine, which you said, and, you know, that that's hilarious when somebody's you're running a 200,000,000,000 plus dollar company.
而且你觉得在接下来的二十年里，我们会回过头来看现在所做的事情，并为当时的做法感到羞愧。
And you think that in the next twenty years, we're gonna look back at what we were doing at this point and be embarrassed by what we were doing.
你为什么这么认为？
Why do you think that?
因为这和其他事情都一样。
Because it's like everything else.
我敢打赌，当你第一次听播客时，你会说：天啊。
It it I'm sure when you listen to your first podcast, you're like, oh my god.
别这样。
Please don't.
但说实话，这应该是最令人欣喜的时刻之一。
But, like, it's honestly, this should be seen as the most joyous of, like, moments.
如果你还没做过，真的应该去试试。
You should actually do it if you haven't done it.
没有。
No.
我经常做。
I I do it all the time.
好的。
Okay.
很好。
Good.
因为那和你今天会做的事情之间的区别就在于你的进步。
Because what you the difference between that and what you would do today is you progress.
对吧？
Right?
作为一名计算机程序员，我经常遇到这种情况。
And as a computer programmer, I I experience this all the time.
我看着以前的代码，心想：这是什么鬼？
I look at old code and was like, what the hell?
这太糟糕了。
Like, this is terrible.
我为什么会这么做？
Why why would I have to do this?
这太抽象和复杂了。
This is way too abstract and complex.
然后我改进了它，因为我现在有了这样的能力。
And then I made it better because I now have the skills to do so.
我生命中最难过的一天之一，就是当我打开旧代码时，惊讶地发现它竟然这么好。
And one of the saddest days of my life was when I opened old code and was, like, really impressed with how good it was.
这真的是最难过的一天吗？
Like, that and that's one of saddest day?
我生命中最难过的一天，因为我心想：天哪。
Really saddest day of my life because I'm like, holy shit.
这个含义突然像火车一样击中了我。
The implication of this just hit me like a like a train.
对吧？
Right?
就像
Like
你根本没有取得任何进展，就像
That you weren't progressing anywhere like
这很正常，因为我并没有整天编程。
It figures because I wasn't programming all day.
我当时在努力，你知道的，去创办一家公司，而说实话，这两者非常相似。
I was, like, trying to, you know, build a company instead, which, honestly, is very, very similar.
这是丹尼尔·埃克告诉我的一件事
This is one of the things Daniel Ek told
关于你。
me about you.
是的。
Yeah.
这是我观察到的情况。
Here's what I'm observing.
和你一样，我读了很多书。
Like you, I I read a lot of books.
我总是试图弄明白，你知道的，我觉得如果你不读书，你这一生就只活了一次。
I I I I try to figure out like, you know, I think someone like, if you don't read books, you live a lifetime.
如果你读书，你就活了一千次。
If you read books, you live a thousand.
对吧？
Right?
所以我是说
So it's I'm
我得打断你一下，因为六年前我就在这档播客里做过笔记。
gonna interrupt you real quick because I took notes on this podcast six years ago.
这是我第一次接触到你，你说过，书籍是你能找到的最接近现实生活外挂的东西。
This is the first time I came across you, and you said, books are the closest thing you'll ever come to finding cheat codes for real life.
你可以在几个小时内掌握他人整个职业生涯的全部经验。
You can access the entire learnings of someone else's career in a few hours.
这说得通，对吧？
It tracks, doesn't it?
是的
Yeah.
它让我能够全身心投入这件事。
It let me dedicate my life to this.
当然。
Of course.
我同意这一点。
I'm gonna agree with that.
我的意思是，你知道，普里亚本该同意我，但我真的觉得我们应该大声宣扬这一点。
I mean, you know, Priya's supposed to agree with me, but, like, I I I really think we need to shout this more from a rooftops.
对吧？
Right?
就像，你知道，那个奇怪的秘诀似乎就是——读书。
Like, it's you know, like, the one weird trick seems to be just, like, read books.
对吧？
Right?
而且，这其实并不重要。
Like, it's and and it kind of doesn't matter.
他们只是养成了读书的习惯，而且最好每三本书左右换一本，至少每本都要读。
They just make a habit of reading books and, like, ideally change every three books or so, at least for one book.
仅凭这一点，就能让你获得一个广泛的视野，足以应对你将来所做的一切。
And then that alone will give you a range that you'll you can draw on for basically everything you'll ever do.
所以，你看，我读了很多书，非常多。
So, like, look, I I I I read lots of books, lots of them.
你知道，特别是当我从程序员转行做商业时，我很快就意识到，自己学商业学得太快了，结果很快对商业类书籍的质量感到失望，因为坦白说，我认为这些商业书籍大多是那些有时间却没真正创办公司的人写的。
You know, just like you know, especially, when I went from programmer to a business, like, realizing after I just learned business really quick, I I got really dismayed with the quality of business books pretty quickly because, frankly, I think the business books are largely written by, by the people who have time, while not the people who actually build companies, frankly.
所以，你也要学会在字里行间去理解。
So, so you read between the lines as well.
这取决于，如果一个创办公司的人或者写书的人是个销售，那么每个问题都能用销售来解决。
Depends on like, if if a person who start a company or a person writing book is a salesperson, every problem can be solved with sales.
如果一个人是市场人员，那显然每个问题都能用营销来解决。
If a person is a marketer, clearly, every problem can be solved with marketer.
至少我可以从中吸取一个教训，避免陷入这种陷阱。
And, I mean, at least that I can take away to as a trap to not fall into.
对吧？
Right?
所以我下定决心，不要成为那种把一切都看作工程问题的工程师型创始人，因为那叫盲目，而那正是限制我能力的东西。
So I was determined to not, be the engineering type founder who was gonna see everything as an engineering problem, because that would be called blindness and, like, I would that's what kept my capabilities.
所以我努力尝试一切，学习如何组建团队，做到充分授权，建立不同的业务线，并合理安排事务。
So I really tried everything and learning, like, the you know, just how to, you know, build the team in such a way that I delegate everything, and I have my different business lines and, you know, arrange things.
这大概是在上市之后，我意识到自己必须成为一个非常认真的上市公司CEO。
This is sort of after the IPO, and I realized I have to be a very serious public company CEO.
说实话，这几乎毁了公司。
And so, it almost killed the company, honestly.
它是怎么差点毁了公司的？
How did it almost kill the company?
实际上，是新冠疫情在那时救了公司。
It was actually COVID that saved it at this point.
我当时就感觉事情真的、真的不太对劲。
Like, I I had the inclinations that something was really, really going poorly.
那时候我们没什么竞争对手，这对企业来说也非常困难。
It was a time we didn't have a lot of competition, so which is also really, really hard for businesses.
这根本不是好事，因为没有良好的竞争，你就无法判断，即使某件事看起来很好，你也无从确认，因为没人能让你保持清醒和诚实。
It's not a good thing at all because, again, you you don't get you don't have good rivalry and you can't you can't sort of like, even if something seems really good, you don't know because there's no one else to keep you honest about it.
你有
You have a
对竞争对手和对手之间的区别。
distinction between a competitor and a rival.
你觉得对手竞争是一回事。
And you think rival competition is one thing.
竞争关系其实很好。
Rivalry is really good.
我的意思是，其实是一回事，但要看情况。
I mean, it's the same, but it depends.
这是一种心态的转变。
It's a mindset change.
就像，我认为如果你和另一家公司竞争，我们就需要复制他们的一些东西。
It's like like, I think if you again, if you compete with, another company, like, there's a lot of, we need also a version of what they have, copying.
你采用的是复印策略，非常迅速。
Like, you you do the the Xerox strategy, very quickly.
公司往往会陷入痴迷。
Companies tend to get obsessed.
有些公司最活跃的Slack频道就是竞争对手分析频道，人们会不断分享其他公司正在做的一切。
Like, there's companies which have very, very like, the most active channel in their Slack is their is a competitive analysis channel where people just bring everything everyone else is doing.
我认为虽然这有一定道理，但问题在于它会让公司变得非常被动。
And I think that while that that has some merit, I think the problem is it makes companies very reactionary.
对吧？
Right?
就像，在艺术领域，每个人的艺术教育都始于一些美术基础。
Like, I you know, that like, in in in in in the arts, part of anyone everyone's art studies is early some fine arts.
你复制优秀的作品。
You copy the great pieces.
比如，你复制伟大的作品，但你的下一幅画却达不到梵高的水平。
Like, you you make copies of great works, your next painting is not at the quality of a Van Gogh.
你只是在复制它。
You just copy it.
对吧？
Right?
模仿实际上并不是通往卓越的绝佳方式，而公司往往深陷其中。
Like, the so mimicry is actually not an excellent way of getting to excellence, and companies end up falling very much into this.
相反，如果你把同行视为竞争对手，就更容易实现共赢，因为竞争能激发最佳表现。
Whereas if you treat someone like an other companies in your space as rivals, much easier to have a positive sum outcome there because rivalries inspired the best.
比如，没有桑普拉斯，阿加西也不可能成为阿加西。
Like, Agassi could not have been Agassi without Sampras being there.
对吧？
Right?
而且他在书中非常明确地提到了这一点。
Like and he very, very clearly states this in his book.
在阿加西那个时代存在的桑普拉斯，阿加西明白那并不是一个真实的人。
The Sampras that existed during the Agassi area that Agassi, like, understood wasn't a real person.
当你读到桑普拉斯的传记时，他只是
When you read Samfas' biography, it he just
喜欢网球。
liked tennis.
是的。
Yeah.
而阿加西讨厌它。
And Agassi hated it.
阿加西讨厌它。
Agassi hated it.
因此，他为自己创造的这种竞争关系，实际上塑造了真实的他自己。
And so the rivalry he created for himself created him in a in a very real way.
在《最后的舞蹈》中，我非常喜欢，迈克尔·乔丹自己承认，他可能在某个时候编造了一个滑动的场景，这在我看来是最深刻的一刻之一。
In The Last Dance, which I loved, like Michael Jordan, like, he admits that he might made up a slide at at some point, which to me is, like, one of the most profound moments.
有时候我在工作时会把《最后的舞蹈》放在背景里播放。
Sometimes I play The Last Dance in the background while at work.
这是我最喜欢的纪录片。
It's my favorite documentary.
我第二喜欢的是《反抗者》。
My second favorite one is the defiant ones.
它讲的是德雷博士和吉米·艾奥文之间长达数十年的合作关系。
It's about the partnership between doctor Dre and Jimmy Iovine, the multi decade partnership.
没错。
That's right.
这是对它的描述。
That's the description.
但这并不是它真正要表达的内容。
That's not what it's about.
这是关于创业的最佳纪录片之一。
It's one of the best documentaries about entrepreneurship.
有意思。
Interesting.
嘻哈音乐的历史极具创业精神。
Hip hop rep history is incredibly entrepreneurial.
这真的是太……
It's it's it's So
我们两天前，或者不管什么时候，刚采访了这部纪录片的主角吉米·艾欧文。
we just recorded with Jimmy Ivein, who's star of the documentary, two days ago or whenever this was.
我都忘了今天是星期几了，而他正是这么说的。
Don't even know what day it is, and that's exactly what he said.
他们比任何人都更早理解了音乐的商业本质。
It's like they understood the business of music before anybody else.
这完全说得通，也完全吻合。
That makes perfect sense and totally tracks.
你可以从外部看到它。
You can see it from the outside.
其实我们是从内部看到的。
It's we we actually we see it from inside.
就像它是第一个在Shopify上大获成功的音乐类别。
Like, it was the first, category of music that just, like, killed it on Shopify.
他们就像是把机会直接转化成了产品，就是这样。
It's like they're just, like, so, like, opportunities converted into products like like that.
而且他们做出了不一样的东西。
And it's it's like, they made different.
真的非常酷。
It was really, really cool.
关于Shopify，有一件特别美好的事。
Like, I there's this beautiful thing about Shopify.
它让你能近距离看到各个行业有多么强的自主性，以及他们多么迅速地吸收新想法。
It's a front row seat to just seeing how high agency the the different industries are and how, you know, quick they absorb new ideas.
而且这 anyway，它其实是另一个话题，但是，
And it's just like it's anyway, it's like a different topic, but,
简直就像在电子游戏中，以上帝视角观察创业，因为你看到过多少在 Shopify 博客上分享的创业者？
Almost like in video game, like a god level view of entrepreneurship because you how many how many entrepreneurs on the shop blog post?
有好几百万呢。
It's, like, millions.
对吧？
Right?
就像，它是
Like, it's
你正从你平台上的创业者身上汲取灵感，用于自己的工作。
And you're drawing, like, insights for your own work from the entrepreneurs on your platform.
其中一位，我们今天会重点讨论，就是差异化的重要性。
One of them, we'll talk a lot about today, was, like, the importance of differentiation.
嗯。
Mhmm.
但我还想回到那个话题。
But I wanna come back to that.
我想再回过头说一下，你当时在想，好吧。
Wanna go back to, like so you were thinking, okay.
IPO之后，我就要以全新的方式处理一切。
Right after the IPO, I'm gonna approach everything.
这就像一个工程问题吗？
This is like an engineering problem?
我会扮演一个公众公司的CEO，一个六十岁、穿着西装的家伙。
I'll be I'll be a cosplay a company a public company CEO, like six 60 year old guy in a suit.
好吧。
Like Okay.
有法律背景。
Legal background.
对吧？
Right?
就像这样，不知为何，大家都效仿这种做法。
Like, that's sort of what everyone emulates for whatever reason.
但从产品角度来看，这种方式对我来说根本行不通。
And and it just worked really poorly for me from a product perspective.
公司整体上还过得去，一路都挺好的。
A company did fine, right, all all the way through.
疫情发生了，好吧。
COVID happened well.
然后我就想，好吧。
And I'm like, okay.
所以，我的公司现在对我的要求是五件不同的事。
So my what my company needs here for me is like five different things.
其中一件事是，所有计划都从根本上失效了。
One of one of them is all plans are invalidated fundamentally.
总之，所有制定计划的人，都请把计划扔掉吧。
Like, everyone who has a plan, just please throw it out.
我们需要重新审视我们所做的一切，重新推导一遍，因为这一切都基于一个非常长的推理链条。
We need to go and, like, go for everything we're doing and rederive it because, again, everything is based on a very long tree.
比如，你从公理开始，然后做出大量后续决策，最终得出结论，而这一切决定了你每天如何构建这个东西，因为这些前提。
Like, you start with Axioms and then you make a a huge amount of decisions on top and then you get to a conclusion, and that's means this is how you spend your day to day building this thing because of these things.
如果这条链条上的任何一个变量被推翻，你就应该从头开始重新推导整个体系。
If any variable along this way is invalidated, what you should be doing is rederive the entire thing on top.
对吧？
Right?
你应该始终回溯到决策树的源头，然后重新向前推进。
Like, you should always prune back the decision tree all the way there and go forward.
人们无法走出家门。
People not being able to, go out of their houses.
这是其中一件事。
It's one of those things.
我觉得我们都没意识到，‘人们可以自由地在世界上移动’这个前提竟然是我们的核心假设，但后来我们被告知不能再这样了，而且这种情况在COVID期间持续了相当长的时间，尤其是在加利福尼亚、加拿大和一些其他地方。
Like, I don't think we all knew that was a core assumption we had, that people could just freely move around in the world, but we got, told that that we can't do this anymore, and it, ended up being quite long during COVID, at least in California and Canada and some places.
所以我们需要重写一切，这一点对我来说很明确，事实上，这就是你构建计算机程序的方式。
So we need to rewrite everything, and that was kind of clear to me and sort of what I you know, I that's how you structure a computer program, frankly.
我仔细梳理了整个路线图，发现要理清这些事情真的非常困难，而且人们甚至在抗拒讨论正在发生的一切。
I went through the entire road map, and what I've figured out is, first of that was really, really hard to get, and people are fighting even like, they're very much resisting talking about everything that's going on.
我弄清楚了原因，因为确实有很多混乱无序的项目在进行。
And I found out why, because, like, there's just a lot of boondockers going on.
有一些随机的人在做着随机的项目，我根本无从得知。
There's just, like, random projects by random people that I would never found out about about it.
比如，有这样一些项目，
Like, there's, like
你为什么不知道在自己的公司里发生了这些事？
Why did you not know that was going on in your own company,
因为公司当时大概有四五千人。
Because the company was, like, let's say, 4,000 or 5,000 people.
你知道，这有点像分散式运作。
You know, it's sort of Corsa distributed.
我们启动了AutoWork项目，当时在多伦多、蒙特利尔等地都有办公室。
We started AutoWork, and we we had, like, Toronto office and Montreal office and so on.
结果发现，多伦多办公室有一个相当大的项目，旨在为Shopify开发新功能，让它能用于运营超市，因为他们觉得超市行业规模巨大，应该去抢占其中1%的市场份额，就像《呆伯特》漫画里那样。
And so it just turned out that, like, you know, in Toronto office, there was a fairly big project to build the features to add to Shopify so, you could use it for running a supermarket because, you know, just they decided that the supermarket industry is very large and we should go and, capture 1% of all it, like, in the Dilbert comics.
对吧？
Right?
而且，说实话，我并不是说那些决定是错的。
And so, you know, and and frankly, it, like, I I'm not saying those were wrong decisions.
建立企业或做决策时最令人惊讶的一点是，做出正确的决定通常其实很简单。
The the the sort of really surprising thing about building a business or just in decision making in general is that, making the right decision is actually child's play usually.
有时候你做出的错误判断，可能因为外部环境变化，后来才被证明是错的，诸如此类。
Like, can make wrong calls which which end up because of world changes ended up being the wrong call later and so on.
那是另一回事。
That's a different thing.
但大多数时候，如果你面对的选项里有明显不好的，它们自己就会被淘汰掉。
But, like, most of the time, if you like, the bad options in front of you just prune themselves away.
它们根本说不通。
They just don't make sense.
它们太贵了，或者根本偏离了目标，等等。
They're too expensive or just, like, off mission or whatever.
问题在于，我认为学校不幸地无意中向人们灌输了这种观念：总有一个正确答案。
You the problem is, and I think school, unfortunately, accidentally drills this into people, is that there's one right answer is sort of what people think.
一旦他们找到了一个看似能实现目标的正确答案，就会采纳它。
And, once they find a right answer that could plausibly accomplish the goals that they set out, they go with it.
但实际上，很可能有数百个很棒的解决方案，其中有一个方案的工作量要少得多，尤其是在工程项目中。
But that's like well, there's probably hundreds of great answers, and one of them is, like, far less work, far more, especially in an engineering project.
最好的解决方案总是模块化和组件化的。
Like, the best solutions are always, modular and components.
你构建一个东西，它就能和你做的其他所有东西协同工作。
You build one thing, and it will work with everything else you did.
人们使用的很多糟糕软件，都是像一团乱麻一样的东西。
Lots of the bad software that people use is are things there, which are just like hairballs inside.
这些部件根本无法配合，要让新东西能与其他部分兼容，必须编写大量代码。
They're like, none of the pieces fit together, and a huge amount of code has to be written to extend the new thing, make it usable from everything else.
我不想跟你细说这些细节。
And, like, I'm not gonna bore you with those kind of details.
但如果你看项目简报，这个团队表现得非常出色。
But, if you look at the project brief, the team killed it.
大概每个人都拿到了奖金。
Probably everyone made their bonus.
他们交付了产品。
They delivered the thing.
但一旦交付完成，它就成了一个孤岛，之后产品里的其他任何部分都无法正常工作。
It just it's like an island upon itself now that and and and and after it's delivered, it nothing else in the product works.
所以你当时是在以创业者、CEO或商人的视角来看待这些事情，是吧。
So you were looking at things as, like, cosplaying a entrepreneur, like a CEO or a business person Yeah.
而不是以工程师的视角？
As opposed to an engineer?
我当时是信任的。
I was trustfully.
我当时在想，好的，不错。
I was like saying, okay, cool.
你看起来很有热情，而且似乎知道自己在做什么。
You're you seem passionate and you've seem to know what you're doing.
我相信你会做正确的事。
I trust you to do the right thing.
当我听到时，当然，我们会继续交流。
And, when I hear, know, obviously, we we gonna keep talking.
你给我更新一下进展。
You give me updates on things.
人们很快就能知道哪些项目是我感兴趣的。
People learn pretty quickly what are the projects that I'm interested in.
教会了我这两者，仅此而已。
Taught me about both and nothing else.
人们学会了如何引导我的注意力，让我关注他们希望我关注的事情。
People learned how to direct, my attention, to the things that they wanted, to have my attention.
那你后来是怎么解决这个问题的？
So how did you fix that?
我亲自逐个审查了每一个项目，每天工作长达十六个小时。
The moment I went through absolutely every project, I did it myself, took, like, many like, sixteen hour days.
我取消了大约60%的项目，并且在一年的时间里，彻底更换了我所有的高管。
I canceled probably 60% of the projects, and, yeah, over the course of a year, I turned over every one of my executives.
这基本上就是由此带来的后果，因为我意识到，在很多情况下，核心问题其实是——嗯，我不想不公平地评价。
Like, this is basically the the consequence of this because I just realized that the in in many cases, the core skill was well, I mean, I I don't wanna be unfair.
对吧？
Right?
只是在很多情况下，信任已经被破坏了。
Like, it's just that trust was broken in many cases.
而在像新冠疫情这样的真正危机中，那确实是我一生中最艰难、最艰难、最艰难、最艰难、最艰难的时刻。
And in a real crisis like COVID again, COVID was hard, hard, hard, hard, hard, hardest time of my life for sure.
在危机中，如果每个人原本都是1，有些人会在危机中跌到0。
And in a crisis, if everyone is a one before, some people go to zero in a crisis.
有些人则会飙升到100。
Some people go to a 100.
我发现这几乎是无法预测的。
And I found it's almost unpredictable.
事实上，如果我在新冠疫情前打赌谁会贡献最多，我想我会完全猜错。
In fact, if I would have been betting before COVID about who's going to be contributing the most, I would have been wrong, I think, entirely.
你认为这是为什么？
Why do you think that is?
我一直在思考这个问题，但至今还没有找到一个满意的答案。
I I've been thinking about it for a long time, and I I still haven't gotten a good answer.
我认为他们自己也想不到。
I don't think they would have known.
这正是有趣的地方。
This is the interesting thing.
我认为真正的危机以一种其他任何事情都无法做到的方式考验你，而且没有任何准备能让你完全应对它。
I think a real crisis tests you in a way that nothing else does and nothing prepares you right for it.
归根结底，我发现那些能最快适应的人其实会自我识别出来。
I think at the end of the day, the thing that I have found is people who can adopt the fastest actually quite self identify.
现在我就能预测出来了。
Now I would be able to predict it.
很简单，你以前创办过公司吗？
Very simple, have you started a company before?
Shopify 由创始人创建，为创始人服务，从而催生更多创始人。
So Shopify is by by a founder, by founders, for founders, causing more founders.
对吧？
Right?
这其实是对创业精神的颂扬。
Like, it's a celebration of entrepreneurship.
我们相信创业是光荣的，那些追寻榜样、在当代做出英雄壮举的人，踏上了一段英雄之旅，面对众多质疑，克服了难以置信的困难和重重阻力。
We we believe entrepreneurship is glorious, and people who reach for their heroes and, doing modern day heroic heroics, go on a hero's journey with lots of naysayers, overcome incredible odds, and lots and lots and lots of headwinds.
这种信念非常根深蒂固。
That conviction runs really deep.
当然，有时候我们会收购公司。
Sometimes you buy companies, of course.
我们收购的许多人至今仍在Shopify工作。
Many of the people we purchased are still in at Shopify.
人们不会长期留下，因为这里本质上是为创业者和高自主性的人打造的场所。
People, like, people don't, like, stay for a very long time because I think it's such a place for founders and for high agency people.
所以我一直为所有我们收购公司的创始人开设了一个Slack频道。
So I always had a Slack channel with all founders of our companies that we purchased.
我每年都会为他们举办一次创业者闭门会议。
We always I I did a founder off-site with them once a year.
因为他们给的建议真的非常有价值。
They're just like because I find their advice just to be so good.
他们都曾对人们的生计负责，这会改变一个人。
They all have been responsible for people's livelihoods, and that changes you.
所以我去了创始人群组，说：伙计们，我需要帮助。
So I went to the founders channel and said, guys, I need help.
对吧？
Right?
这个地方简直太疯狂了。
Like, this is this place is it's crazy here.
你当时已经开始更换高管了吗？
Had you already started turning over your executives?
是的。
Yeah.
一旦我意识到这一点，就发现这并不是某个瞬间的事。
Once I realized that I was like and and it wasn't, like, one moment.
它只是慢慢地...
It was just like
你怎么会本能地想到去创始人群组寻求帮助？
How did you know that instinct to go to the founders channel and ask for help?
我觉得在那种‘我该去找谁求助？’的时刻。
I think that in a moment of, like, where the fuck do I go?
我和谁最相似？谁能真正理解这里的问题？
Who do I have most in common with, and who can I who can actually relate to the types of problems here?
因为，再说一遍，我和Shopify的关系是不同的。
Because, again, my relation to Shopify is different.
对吧？
Right?
是我创办了它。
Like, I started it.
对吧？
Right?
这就跟其他人完全不同。
Like, it's like it's just like it's different from everyone else.
但次好的办法是，找那些和自己创造的东西有过类似关系的人聊聊。
But the second best thing is talk to people who have had this type of relationship with the thing they created.
你知道吗，我请了很多创始人来担任我的高管。
You know, I asked a lot of the founders to become my executives.
在某些情况下，我从工程团队的普通成员中提拔了人，让他们负责非常重要的事务。
In some cases, I took people from individual contributors in in the engineering team and put them in charge of a very large thing.
你知道吗？
And you know what?
我们每个人都努力工作了。
Every one of us folks worked.
这非常了不起，因为它印证了我原本就有的直觉。
And it was like really remarkable because it really fed into an intuition I had anyway.
我在疫情期间发现，公司的创始人其实过得并不好，因为他们也受到了类似的管理方式。
And what I found is during COVID is the founders of a company were actually not doing well because they were, like, similarly managed.
他们就像是麻烦制造者。
They were, like, irritants.
那是什么意思？
What does that mean?
他们不会妥协。
They don't settle.
他们谈论的是绝对标准。
Like, they they they talk about absolutes.
如果某件事很糟糕，他们就会直言不讳。
They they if something is shit, they say so.
不管大家是否已经同意继续前进。
It doesn't matter if everyone has agreed to to move on or something.
这件事会像一种更深的困扰，一直啃噬着他们。
It just it gnaws on them in a way that's deeper than, this other thing.
这正是你内心所拥有的东西。
And it's exactly what you have inside of you.
没错。
Exactly.
所以我觉得这是一种非常特别的品质，但公司却常常拒绝它。
And so I I I I feel like this is, it's a very special thing, and it's companies reject it.
公司把他们包裹起来。
Companies cocoon them.
有时他们发现，会给他们一些边缘项目，比如臭鼬工作组。
Sometimes they find sort of out they give outskirts like the skunk work team.
这就像是托儿所，专门收容那些otherwise告诉你你的东西根本没臭味的人。
It's like just like it's day care for for people who otherwise tell you that your stuff your your shit doesn't smell.
对吧？
Right?
但臭味确实存在。
And shit does smell.
所以，我决定，不行。
So once I'm like, no.
你不能把他们扔进什么托儿所。
You you you don't get to put them in, like, found a daycare.
你得让他们直接面对你，甚至压在你身上。
You you I'm gonna put them right right in front of you or, like, in fact, on top of you.
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所以，你知道，这对这家企业产生的影响简直不可思议。
So and so, you know, the difference that made to this business is nuts.
所以这就是为什么我说新冠疫情拯救了Shopify，因为我必须做出一个非常果断的决定。
And so this is why I'm saying COVID saved Shopify because I I needed to take a move that was, like, very much, okay.
我创建了这家公司。
I built this company.
我走到了这一步。
I got to this point.
这很重要。
It's important.
实际上，也许在疫情期间比之前更重要，因为对数百万小企业来说，这是它们当时生存下去的唯一希望。
It's actually maybe even more important during COVID than before because it was kind of like for millions of small businesses, their likelihood for this time and only way to make likelihood.
我为我们所做的一切感到无比自豪，因为我认为那些在Shopify上起步的早期企业成长得更好了。
And I'm super proud of what we did because I think the businesses that started in Chopraim came early pro like, grew and did better.
有些企业成长了
Some of them grew
比你更快。
faster than you.
你说有人比你们更快达到十亿美元。
You said somebody beat you guys to a billion dollars.
哪个
Which
这最疯狂了。
is the craziest thing.
这些企业是从哪里吸引到他们的客户的呢？那些在平台上起步的企业，这太棒了，我爱死这个了。
Where were these businesses ever raised their customers, like, that started on the platform for it's it's the greatest I love this thing.
所以，我的意思是，他们真的很棒。
And so, I I mean, again, like, they're fantastic.
他们是英雄。
They're heroes.
他们太辉煌了。
They're glorious.
他们，他们，他们的创始人和我的客户一样，对我的软件感到同样的困扰。
They're they're they're wonderfully founder my my customers have the same irritation with my software.
就像我跟你说的，这简直完美。
And like I tell you, it's like, it's perfect.
对吧？
Right?
这正是我想要的。
It's exactly what I want.
于是，那一刻我心想，你知道吗，托比？
And so this was one of those moments saying, you know what, Toby?
也许你并不是完全偶然地创建了Shopify，你的直觉可能真的很有帮助，而模仿别人可能并不是你需要做的事。
Like like, maybe you didn't build Shopify completely by accident and your intuition might have been actually helpful and cross playing someone else is probably not what you need to do.
所以那时，你
So at that point, you
已经运营Shopify多久了？
were running Shopify for how long?
十五年。
Fifteen years.
现在是，是的。
Now it's yeah.
大约。
About.
所以你已经十五年了，十五年了。
So that you were fifteen years in Fifteen years in.
这在传记中非常常见。
This is very common biographies.
我想人们会感到惊讶，比如：‘为什么花了这么长时间才搞明白？’
I think I would just surprise people like, oh, why did take so long to figure it out?
不，不是这样的。
It's like, no.
真正掌握技能需要很长时间。
It takes a long time to to actually build the skills.
而关于直觉，重要的是它需要不断磨练。
And then the important thing about intuition has to be refined.
是的。
Yeah.
所以，也许在2005年，你不该那么依赖你的直觉。
So it's like, maybe in 2005, you shouldn't have been trusting your intuition.
相信直觉有时是不错的建议，但关键在于你的直觉是否可靠。
Trust your gut is sometimes good advice, but it really depends on your gut.
没有人天生就具备创办企业的直觉，因为首先，每个十年的商业环境都截然不同。
So it's like, no one no one is born with intuition for building businesses Because first of all, building businesses are completely, every decade is different.
有些问题是持续存在的。
Like some problems are persistent.
我笑了。
Like I laughed.
我听了你关于拉里·埃里森的那期节目。
I listened to, I think, the episode you did on Larry Ellison.
你刚才描述了他对销售团队问题的沮丧，而这些我确实不得不面对。
You were describing his frustration with problems in his sales team, which literally I had to.
就像，你知道吗？
Like, it was like, you know what?
我其实并没有亲身经历过那种噩梦。
I I didn't actually live have to live that horror.
我本可以，如果我读了正确的
I could have actually like, there, if I would have read the right
你读过关于软件的书或传记吗？
Did you read software and any biographies?
那么就是
Then it's
我们的听众，创始人，是的，
like Our listeners, founders, yeah,
关于销售团队的激励问题就像是
like The incentive problems around commercial teams was like
但那正是最精彩的部分。
But that's that's amazing part.
我很高兴你刚刚注意到了这一点。
I'm I'm glad you just you you picked it up.
因为他会说，我简直羞愧难当。
Because he's like, I'm fucking embarrassed.
他说，我都40岁了。
He's like, I'm 40 years old.
是的。
Yeah.
是的。
Yeah.
我经营这家公司这么多年，却没意识到销售团队的激励机制有多重要。
I've been running this company forever, and I didn't understand that incentives with my sales team mattered.
而这一点差点毁了他的公司。
And they almost destroyed his company.
是的。
Yeah.
他们差点破产。
They almost went out of business.
我通常在坐进赛车模拟器练习X射线时听播客，然后到了那个时刻，我不得不停下来，好好听一听，因为我在对拉里·埃里森产生强烈的共鸣，真是不可思议。
I usually listen to podcasts when I'm sitting in my racing simulator to practice for an x rays, and, like, it got to that point, and I had to, like, okay.
我必须停下来，专心听，因为我对拉里·埃里森产生了强烈的共情，这简直太意外了。
I have to stop and just listen to this because I'm I'm I'm just feeling so much empathy for Larry Ellison, of all people.
这不是很有趣吗？
How funny is that?
所以，不管怎样，他是谁？
So, anyway Who's that?
共情的问题？
Empathetic question?
在你继续之前，因为我超喜欢你接下来要说的，但我忍不住，因为你知道的。
Before you move on, because I love where you're going, I can't help myself because you know this.
就像我听到你说，我要辞退高管们的时候。
It's like when I hear you saying, like, I'm getting rid of the executives.
我要组建一个由创始人组成的高管团队。
I'm gonna build an executive team of founders.
这并不是什么新点子。
That's not a new idea.
洛克菲勒一百五十年前就在这么做了。
Rockefeller was doing that a hundred and fifty years ago.
有趣的是，洛克菲勒发明的这些基本架构——我们称之为信托，因为当时这就是个术语，嗯。
It's interesting how the building blocks that largely Rockefeller invented I mean, we call these things trusts because it was, you know, like, that that was a term Mhmm.
他们最早就是这么用的。
They, first used there.
托比对提升公司不懈的投入让我想起了我的朋友卡里姆，他是Ramp的联合创始人兼CTO。
Toby's relentless dedication to improving his company reminds me of my friend Karim, who's the cofounder and CTO of Ramp.
卡里姆是金融领域最杰出的技术人才之一。
Kareem is one of the greatest technical minds working in finance.
我花了很多时间和Kareem交谈，每一次对话都围绕着他致力于打造高质量产品，并利用最新技术持续为客户提供更佳体验的执着。
I spend a lot of time talking to Kareem, and every single conversation centers around his obsession with crafting a high quality product and using the latest technology to constantly create better experiences for his customers.
和Toby一样，Kareem认为永远没有足够好的东西，总可以进一步改进。
Like Toby, Kareem believes that nothing is ever good enough and it can always be improved.
Kareem领导着金融领域最具才华的技术团队之一，他们通过快速而不懈的迭代，每天都在提升产品。
Kareem is running one of the most talented technical teams in finance and they use rapid relentless iteration to make their product better every day.
今年迄今为止，Ramp已经发布了超过300个新功能。
So far this year, Ramp has shipped over 300 new features.
Ramp完全致力于利用人工智能，为客户提供更佳的体验，并尽可能自动化企业的财务流程。
Ramp is completely committed to using AI to make a better experience for their customers and to automate as much of your business' finances as possible.
事实上，Kareem最近写道：‘这些天我脑子里想的全是人工智能。’
In fact, Kareem just wrote this: AI is all I think about these days.
我们有责任成为先行者，突破极限，从而为客户提供最卓越的产品体验。
It is our duty to be first movers and push limits so we can make the greatest possible product experience for our customers.
这听起来和Toby的做法非常相似。
That sounds a lot like the approach Toby uses.
卡里姆和托比从不满足于现状，而是通过快速迭代为客户发明新产品。
Both Kareem and Toby never rest on their laurels and use rapid iteration to invent new products for their customers.
世界上许多增长最快、最具创新性的公司都在使用Ramp来运营其业务，包括Shopify。
Many of the fastest growing and most innovative companies in the world are running their business on Ramp, including Shopify.
请务必访问ramp.com，了解他们如何帮助您的企业节省时间和金钱。
Make sure you go to ramp.com to learn how they can help your business save time and money.
让AI帮您追踪收据并完成对账，这样您就能把时间和精力投入到为客户打造卓越产品上。
Let AI chase your receipts and close your books so you can use your time and energy building great things for your customers.
因为归根结底，这一切的核心就是打造一款能让他人生活更美好的产品或服务。
Because at the end of the day, that is what this is all about, building a product or service that makes someone else's life better.
这正是我正在努力做的事情。
That is what I'm trying to do.
这正是托比毕生致力于追求的目标，也是Ramp所践行的使命。
That is what Toby has dedicated his life to doing, and that is what Ramp has done too.
立即访问ramp.com，开始使用吧。
Get started today by going to ramp.com.
所以现在你有了高管团队。
So now you have the executives.
你正在经历人生中最艰难的阶段。
You're going through the most difficult part in your life.
是的。
Yeah.
你意识到，哦，我是在控制成本。
And you realize, oh, I'm cost playing.
我要更相信自己的直觉。
I'm gonna go lean into my intuition.
对。
Yeah.
这就是为什么我觉得，你六七年前——不管多久前——做出的那个决定，正是这么多创始人研究你、尊重你、借鉴你理念的原因，因为你真的太厉害了。
This is another thing why I think that decision you made six, seven years ago, however long it was, is why so many founders, like, study you, respect you, take pieces of, like, your philosophy as well because you're like, goddamn it.
我就要按我自己的方式来做。
I'm just gonna do this the way I wanna do it.
我当时想，好吧。
I was like, okay.
我需要尝试一些不同的东西。
I need to try something like, different.
你必须做些不一样的事情。
You have to do things differently.
显而易见，如果一直做同样的事，就会得到同样的结果。
Axiomatically, like, if obviously, axiomatically, if you do the same thing, you get the same results.
差异化需要新的想法。
Differentiation requires new ideas.
你不是花接下来十年去琢磨如何更好地模仿别人，而是想想，如果一家公司完全基于我的直觉和偏见会是什么样子。
You are instead of figuring out like, spending the next ten years of my life figuring out how well I can cosplay someone else, what would a company look like if it just, like, taps entirely into my intuitions, like, in in my biases.
我现在做的每件事都和以前完全相反，因为以前的方法行不通，也许反着来反而有效。
I'm I'm doing literally the opposite now as I did before because this didn't work, so maybe the opposite works.
最坏的情况，我也能在这两者之间找到一个折中点。
And worst case, I triangulate the midpoint between those things.
因此，在Founders Channel的成员主动提出与我一起经营公司并取得清晰、迅速且明显的成功之后，我在这里的真正直觉再次浮现——直觉就是你一生的经历浓缩成一个瞬间的决断。
So enabled by the, very clear, fast, and obvious success of, asking people from Founders Channel to step up and and and run company with me, My real set of intuitions here, again, intuition is your entire life's story rolled out for you to make a snap decision in a moment.
我的直觉告诉我，一家公司实际上应该是什么样子？
What does my intuition say about what a company actually should look like?
让我们抛开路径依赖吧。
Like, let's let's forget about the path dependence.
让我们彻底从零开始，从公理出发重建一切。
Let's go full tabular rasa and go up up from Axioms.
我从真正、真正、真正的一无所有开始。
And I started with really, really, really nothing.
我 literally 在GitHub上启动了一个项目，真的就是这样。
Like, I started a pro like, a project on GitHub, literally.
工程工具，我的直觉再次发挥作用。
So engineering tools, my intuitions again.
公司的第一原则是什么？
What is the first principle of com of of a company?
那么，输入是什么？
Like, what is like, what are the inputs?
我们的决策是什么？
How what are our decisions?
比如，把配置文件里有哪些职位、哪些级别都列出来，我还收集了所有销售薪酬数据或市场数据，放进代码仓库里。
Like, put in config files, what titles exist, what levels exist, how you know, I asked for all the sales, like, compensation data or the market data and put them into the repository.
我把它们转成了机器可读的文件，因为总不能直接用PDF之类的格式吧。
I turned them into machine readable files because I can't got them as PDFs and so on and so on.
所以我做了一个工具，最终我拥有了构建公司模型所需的所有信息。
So I built a thing that then created like, at the end, I had all the information to create a model of a company.
这其实就是一段Python代码，它会读取我们共同确认的配置文件，比如每个经理应该管理多少人，然后用一种叫SAC求解器的工具进行计算。
Like, literally, this is Python code which takes configuration files that we agreed on, things like how many people should report to a manager, all these bits, and then computes them, uses something called a solver, like a SAC solver specifically.
在所有这些约束和输入条件下，Shopfare应该是什么样子？
And then, with all these constraints, all these imports, what should Shopfare look like?
有哪些部门？有哪些级别？每个组有多少人？所有这些细节。
What departments exist, what level exist, how many people are there, in in which group and everything.
当然，第一个版本非常完全错误，后来我意识到了。
And of course, the first version, very utterly incorrect, and then I realized.
你是独自完成的吗？
Are you doing this alone?
我一开始自己做，然后找了两三个其他人来帮忙，我们一起深入投入了这个项目。
I started it, and then I got, like, two, three other people in it to help me, this, with this and really, really got into it.
所以，这个系统被称为Shopify OS，即Shopify操作系统。
And so, this is this is called Shopify OS, the Shopify operating system.
现在成为Shopify的一部分，真的有很多内容。
It is really a lot being part of Shopify now.
它揭示了一个无可辩驳的事实：我们并不了解所有的原则。
What it did is it it it became irrefutable that we didn't know all the principles.
公司有大约八千人，却有五千五百多个不同的职位头衔。
We had, like, something it was 8,000 people in in a company, and it was five and a half thousand different titles in a company.
比如，有些只是‘高级’和‘高级职员’，但在某些团队里，高级职员的级别低于总监，而在另一些团队里却高于总监。
And it's like so I mean, some of them are just senior and senior staff, but in some groups, senior staff was lower than director and some above.
当我试图让某些东西可软件寻址并尝试复现时，它非常轻易地揭示了公司里所有疯狂且不可行的选择。
And it just like it it just when I tried to make something software addressable and try to reproduce it, it showed every crazy, unviable choice in the company very, very easily.
工程领域中有一个系统，虽然并未被充分理解，但我认为它应该被称为‘期望状态系统’。
So there's a system in engineering, not actually a well understood part of, but I think it should, called desire state systems.
期望状态系统就是这么一种东西：你先说，好吧。
And what desire state systems are is is it's it's a it's a thing where you say, okay.
这是应该有的状态。
Here's what should be.
然后将它与现状进行对比。
You hold that up to what is.
比如，你点击一个网站上的链接，其背后的 React 库会这样做：好吧。
Like, you click on a website on a link and your React library behind it, what it does is it says, okay.
我计算出它应该是什么样子。
I compute what it should be.
再观察它当前是什么样子，然后找出将它从现状变为理想状态所需的最少步骤。
I see what it is, and now I figure out what is the minimum amount of steps I take to get this to that.
这就是你在网页浏览器上看到的内容。
And that's what you see on the web browser.
我需要为这家公司建立一个目标状态系统。
I need a desired state system for this company.
所以我们创建了这个模型，然后将其与公司现状对比，人力资源的职责就是充当调和者。
So we have this model we create it, and then we hold it up to the company, and the job of HR is to be this reconciler.
如何以最少的步骤从现状到达目标，或者改变我们系统中的内容，使其更接近我们真正想要的状态？
Like, how do you take the minimum steps to get from here to there, or change what we have in this system to, approximate what we actually want?
这非常技术性。
So this is very technical.
它的影响如下。
Here's the effect of it.
想想看，这能消除多少政治博弈。
Think about how much politics this removes.
然后我的销售负责人来找我说，嘿。
Then my head of sales comes to me and says, hey.
我需要招聘50名新销售人员。
I need 50 new salespeople.
我现在可以把这个需求输入系统，系统会说：这意味着你们要么做出这些调整，要么就得失去一些工程师，或者看看情况。
I can put this now into the system and says, well, that means you have to either make these changes or you're gonna lose some of your engineers or look.
因为系统会根据我们的协议重新计算所有内容。
Because the system, based on our agreements, recomputes everything.
所以，我们总能查看反事实情况。
So I have, we can always look at the counterfactual.
而不是像这样：老板在打高尔夫时同意招聘50名新销售人员，现在却有人必须从工程团队中砍掉某些人，你突然就无法专注于创新了，因为你从未真正做出过不招聘工程师的决定——只是因为预算不允许了，但你确实做出了招聘销售人员的决定。
And then it's not like, yes, boss agreed while playing golf to hire 50 more salespeople, and now someone has to carve like, you have to find a pound of flesh somewhere in the engineering team, and suddenly you don't actually work on innovation anymore because you never actually made the decision to not hire engineers because your budget doesn't allow anymore because but you did make the decision to hire salespeople.
也许这个决定是正确的，但现在我们可以真正看清每项决策带来的后果。
And maybe this is the right decision, but now we can actually look at the consequences of every one of those things.
因此，这个系统非常成功，因为它为我们带来了极大的透明度和简洁性。
So it was hugely successful because it just created such a legibility for for us and such a simplicity.
它还让我们意识到，原来有这么多事情其实尚未决定。
It also just told us that so much was undecided.
比如，在工程领域，我们早就把个人贡献者视为一条非常优秀的职业发展路径。
Like, for instance, we took the concept of in in engineering, this was already around individual contributors as a really, really excellent career track.
对吧？
Right?
在一些优秀公司里，作为个人贡献者赚的钱完全可以和副总裁或经理一样多，甚至在当今时代，许多公司的最高薪职位已经是个人贡献者了，尤其是在机器学习领域，比如OpenAI这样的机器学习实验室。
Like, you can make as much money in good companies as an individual contributor as you can as a as a as a VP or manager or, like, the best paid people in many companies are now individual contributors at this point in in history, especially in machine learning, like, at least in the at the machine learning labs like OpenAI.
但其他领域并没有这样的路径。
But no other discipline really had that.
你必须成为管理者才能在职业上获得晋升。
You had to become a manager to to, progress in your career.
所以我认为，其中一个后果是，我开始认真思考：嘿。
And so I think one of the consequences was that, then I really will look as, hey.
我需要更多优秀的工程师。
I need more great engineers.
招募他们的最佳来源就是我自己的管理团队。
The best place to recruit them from was my own management team.
这看起来很荒谬，尤其是因为我们真的有那么多优秀的管理者吗？
And, like, that seems silly, and especially because we we are they actually great managers?
他们之所以备受尊重，是因为他们是出色的工程师，所以也许吧，但他们难道不想写代码吗？
They're really well respected because they're good engineers, so maybe, but, like, don't they want to code?
所以我们创建了一种所谓的精通体系，你知道，每个职位都可以保持原状。
Like, it's like and, you know so we created, like, this sort of mastery system, we call it, where, you know, every job has this ability to stay.
你可以频繁地获得这些级别提升，无论承担什么职责，只要你能力超群，就能赚很多钱。
You you can get these, basically, level upgrades frequently, at any set of responsibilities, you can if you're insanely good at it, you can make lots of money.
这看起来显然就是人们所向往的模式。
And, like, that just seems like, of course, you desire it like this.
你为什么不呢？
Why would you not?
他们为什么能一直留在个人贡献者的岗位上？
Like, why they can stay individual territory.
举个例子。
Like, take an example.
在工程领域，如果你在这个专业中比其他人优秀一百倍，你赚的钱可能会超过副总裁。
In engineering, if you're in like, if you're a 100 times better than other people in in in this discipline usually, you can make more money than a than a vice president.
这取决于你能带来的价值，但确实是有可能的。
Now that depends on the value you can bring, but it is possible.
而且，我真的不喜欢我们行业那种薪酬分配方式。
And just like like, I I kind of hated the way we did, like, compensation in the in the industry.
对吧？
Right?
再说一遍，这些话题很无聊，但你得明白。
Like, again, these are these are boring topics, and you need to No.
对我来说，还有对听我们对话的人来说，这些并不无聊。
It's not they're not boring to to me and to the people listening.
等等。
Wait.
你为什么讨厌行业里那种薪酬分配方式？
Why do you hate the way that they were doing compensation in the industry?
我喜欢创业的一点是，人们所承担的责任感和个人责任感。
What I love about entrepreneurship is the is is the level of responsibility personal responsibility people take.
我之前谈到过，那些对他人命运负责的创始人，这会改变你的格局。
I said as much earlier when we talked about, the founders who have been responsible for people's likelihoods, it changes your doors.
对吧？
Right?
我不太适应那种一切都已预先规定好的环境。
Like, so, like, I I don't work myself well in an environment where sort of like everything is pre predescribed.
我不喜欢加入别人的游戏。
I I don't like joining other people's games.
诸如此类的事情都是我的偏见。
I and so on.
所有这些都属于我的个人倾向。
All all these kind of things are my biases.
而且，我们在这里实施的正是我的这些偏见。
And, again, we're implementing my biases here.
所以在新冠疫情期间，大概是2021年或2022年，Shopify的股价突然下跌了80%。
So in COVID, like, this is 2022, I think, or '21, suddenly, Shopify went down 80% of stock value.
对吧？
Right?
这其实又让我觉得，这根本不是什么问题，因为我觉得股票市场本质上就像Polymarket。
Like, that that's a like, again, I didn't think that was a problem because, like, I think the stock market is basically like polymarket.
它更像是对未来的价值进行押注的市场。
It's sort of a betting market on its future value.
对吧？
Right?
就像，如果你们押错了，那只是你们下注水平差而已。
Like, it's like it's like, you guys then then you guys are wrong, then you're just bad at betting.
实际上，我关注的是公司的真实价值，而你们只是在对这个价值下注，但说实话，我不太确定。
Like, in fact so I work on the real market value of a company, which you guys are betting on, but I don't know.
所以，人们对股价的谈论方式，和公司内部实际看待股价的方式，存在着巨大的差异。
So, like, there's such a discrepancy from the way I see people talk about stock price and and and how I or have ever or inside of companies, this is perceived.
但当股价下跌80%时，你心里到底在想什么？
But what was going on in your head when it drops by 80%, though?
嗯，我当时觉得，你知道的，我们可是股票界的行家。
Well, I'm like, well, my head, I believe because I'm like, you know, I I mean, we're the stock boss.
松了一口气。
Relieved.
是的。
Yeah.
对。
Yeah.
好。
Yeah.
当然。
Of course.
什么叫‘当然’？
Because What do mean, of course?
这可不是正常的反应。
That's not an normal reaction.
我当时想，我不会去融资，直到我银行里有足够的钱。
I was like I was not about to, like, raise money until I had enough money in a bank.
我是德国人，所以我不太会那样做，等等。
I'm, you know, German, so, like, I don't take that, like, much and so on.
就像是这样
It's like so
内部指标表现如何？
Were the internal metrics strong?
你觉得它们不配，你不觉得吗？
They you felt they didn't deserve you didn't
单位经济状况非常棒。
deserve The unit economics are amazing.
不过，当时我……我不想这么说，但我真的不记得具体数字了。
However, like, at the I I don't I don't wanna say this right, but but I honestly don't remember the exact numbers.
在我们股价的高点，我觉得我们的交易估值超过了收入的50倍，类似这样的情况。
Like, at the high point of our stock price, I think we were trading at beyond 50 x of revenue and stuff like this.
是的，我当时就是这么想的。
I'm like, yeah.
这根本不是价值投资。
That's not exactly value investing here.
对吧？
Right?
各位，你们明白吗。
Like, guys.
所以我理解。
And so I get it.
但你当时不担心
Like But you weren't worried about
业务的基本面吗？
the fundamentals of the business?
不。
No.
但当市值达到收入的50倍时，我觉得我有责任这么做。
But, like, what when it is 50 times revenue, I see it as my obligation to do that.
好吧。
Okay.
对吧？
Right?
这就像，这是我的工作。
Like, it's my, like, my job.
我的职责是打造我所能创造的最好的公司。
My my job is to build the best company I can.
市场预期我能实现这样的成就。
The betting market says that I can deliver that kind of thing.
我就想，是的。
And I'm like, yeah.
也许吧，但你得给我一点时间。
Maybe, but you gotta give me a moment here.
我是说，我需要一点时间来做这件事。
Like, like, I I need a moment here for for doing this.
所以我想
So I'd like
所以我提起这个的原因是，因为每次我和其他创业者交谈时，我都会用我脑子里所有东西来过滤一遍。
so I I the reason I bring this up is because, again, everything I talk to another entrepreneur, and I just run it through this whatever the hell's in my head from all
这些书。
these books.
当你谈到这一点时，我想起了亚马逊股价的那段时期。
And when I hear you talk about that, I think of that the time when Amazon stock.
贝索斯在股东信中谈到了这一点。
He took Bezos talks about this in his shareholders.
它从大约180跌到了6，或者从120跌到了6。
It went from, like, something like, you know, 180 down to 6 or 120 down to six.
他说，是的。
And he's like, yeah.
但他们当时关注的是其他事情。
But they were they were focused on something else.
我看到了这家公司的实际基本面，心想，这东西一定会成功。
I saw the actual fundamentals of the business, and I was like, this thing's going to work.
所以最终，我认为巴菲特总是重复一句话：短期内，股市是个投票机。
And so eventually because I think Buffett always repeats that thing where, like, in the short term, the stock market's a voting machine.
长期来看，它是个称重机。
In the long term, it's a weighing machine.
你只想打造一家极其扎实的公司。
You just wanna build a heavy ass company.
他接着说，杰夫也说，我正在打造一家非常扎实的公司。
And he's like and and and Jeff's like, I'm building a very heavy company.
亚马逊会是一家非常扎实的公司，所以我并不担心这种短期下跌80%到90%的情况。
Amazon will be a heavy company, so I'm not worried about this, like, short term drop by 80 or 90%.
这确实说得通。
That that really tracks.
所以，但其中一个影响是，没错，人们当时拿到了股票期权，是的。
And so, but, like, one of the effects was, and this is right, like, well, people got stock options at Yeah.
那个层级上。
The level up there.
他们理所当然地问：那又怎么样呢？
And they rightfully say, well, how about it?
对吧？
Right?
就像，即使你说，好吧。
Like, it's like, even if you say, like, okay.
我非常愿意努力，帮你重回那个状态。
Well, I'm super game here to, you know, get us back there.
这需要付出很多努力。
Like, this is gonna be it's gonna take doing.
我意识到，当所有人都深陷困境，需要花好几年才能重新回到股票期权哪怕值一分钱的起点时，这背后存在一个心理问题。
I realized the psychological problem with everyone being so underwater and having, you know, to spend years getting to basically the zero point where the stock options are worth, like, even a penny again.
当然，他们会觉得，但那是公司给的。
And, of course, they were like, well, but that's the company.
当时公司给了我这两样东西。
Like, the company gave me both things at the time.
我是收到了它们的。
It's like I received them.
在这个过程中，我是被动的。
I was I was I was passive in this interaction.
因此，公司有某种责任让我恢复到原本的状态。
Therefore, the company has some kind of responsibility to kind of make me whole here.
我觉得这其实——你知道，我并不一定这么看，因为风险本来就存在，而且这类事情就是这样。
And I think that's actually, you know I I mean, I not necessarily see it this way because, like, like, the risk was there and, like, these kind of things.
而且，again，是其他人投票导致了这种价格变化。
And, like, again, it's like other people voting that's causing this price.
我没有设定它。
I didn't set it.
然而，我确实获得了一个点数。
However, I I do receive a point.
他们在整个过程中没有任何主动权。
Like, they they had no agency in the process.
所以我们重新构建了我们的薪酬体系，完全反其道而行之，与别人的做法截然相反。
So we rebuilt our compensation system to completely the opposite work the opposite of what everyone else's does.
我们给每个人提供：这是你的年薪。
We we give people, here's your annual salary.
这是内部系统。
Here's an internal system.
你进去。
You go in.
你查看它。
You look at it.
这是一个数字。
This is a number.
现在你有了滑块。
Now you get sliders.
你可以选择：你想要多少股票？
You can say, how much do you want in stock?
你想要多少限制性股票单位（RSUs）？
How many do you want in RSUs?
你实际上想要多少现金薪酬？
How much office do want in shop cash, actually?
你想要多少现金？
And how much do you want in cash?
你可以每季度调整一次。
And you can change it every quarter.
就像你决定自己想要多少报酬一样。
It's like you decide, like like, how much money you want.
而且你甚至可以使用某种工具，将你所获得的股票价值锁定三年。
And you can even use a couple like, a tool that's been able to lock in the value of the stock you received for three years.
就像，这又回到了一个原则性的问题：如果你秉持良好的原则，有时自动执行机制会重新回到桌面上。
Like, it's a it's like, again, sometimes auto doxie can come back on the table if you get there from good principles.
通过我们提供的工具，你实际上可以加入Shopify，并获得与其他公司相同的股票期权方案，但你是完全自主的，并做出自己的选择。
Like, you can actually join Shopify and get exactly the same stock option deal that companies get at other places, by using the tool we give you, but you are full agency and you make this choice.
这种薪酬体系的结果非常美妙，因为首先，它极其可预测。
The consequence of this compensation system is kind of beautiful because what happens is, first of it's super predictable.
其次，如果你持有股票，而股价上涨，你就能赚更多钱。
Second, you know, if you go stock and the stock appreciates and you you hold them, you make more money.
如果股价下跌，你下个季度就会获得更多的股票期权。
If, like, the stock goes down, you would now get more stock options then in your next quarter.
所以它实际上每个季度都会根据实际价值进行重新平衡。
So it like, it's it's rebalanced against the actual value every every quarter.
因此，这套机制运作得非常好。
So it works really, really well.
这非常受欢迎。
It's very popular.
这本来很难实现，因为要在全球范围内、针对不同国家的人实施这种做法，简直就是一场法律噩梦，因为各地关于薪资调整的规则五花八门。
It's was kind of hard to do because doing this worldwide for with people in many different countries was, like, kind of a legal nightmare because, like, there's, like, all sorts of rules around how to change around changing of salaries.
我们最终把一切都理顺了。
We figured it all out.
所以我们现在有了一个关于人们如何希望实施这一做法的完整方案。
So we have a blueprint of how people want to do it.
这对我们的效果非常好。
It works really well for us.
但我们对此感到相当自豪，因为这确实是一个独特的亮点，而且我们相信它看起来要好得多。
But we're kind of proud of it because it's, like it's it's it's just, like, again, it's a point of differentiation, and we believe it looks much better.
而且，我也希望公司里的每个人都感受到，这是一家从不盲目行事的公司。
And, again, I want people at the company to also feel like this is a company that is like never sleepwalks into anything.
对吧？
Right?
我们做事是有意而为之的。
We we we kind of we are deliberate about things.
当你刚开始做这件事时，我就决定要按我的方式来。
When you started this, I'm gonna do it my way.
我正在和创始人及高管团队合作。
I'm working with the founder executive team.
你当时正在推进这件事，而股价却在下跌吗？
You're in the process of that and the stocks dropping?
没有。
No.
那件事早就存在了。
It was already there.
那个事件是2020年或2021年初的项目，我想。
Like, that that event so that was a twenty twenty, twenty early twenty one project, I think.
然后我想问，股市是什么时候开始变化的？
And then I think I think the stock market when when did that change?
像是21年底？
Like, '21 late?
这些年对我来说完全混在一起了，因为根本就没有周末。
Some these years are totally running together for me because it just was I mean, there was no weekends.
根本没有
There was no
我记不清是谁说的了。
I I can't tell I can't remember who said this.
我跟很多年长的创始人聊过。
I was talking to a much I I talked to a lot of older founders.
我特别痴迷于这一点，别人以为我痴迷于老年人。
I'm obsessed with, like people think I'm obsessed with old people.
不是那样的。
It's not that.
就像这位老兄已经有五十年的经验了，是的。
It's like this guy's got fifty years as a Yeah.
作为企业家的经验，作为企业家。
As an entrepreneur experience as an entrepreneur.
结果发现他们懂不少东西。
Turns out they know some shit.
他们见识过不少事。
They've seen some shit.
真让人意外。
Surprise.
是的。
Yeah.
他只是说，伙计，你会记得你公司起步的时候。
And he's just like, man, you're gonna remember the beginning of your company.
你会记得结尾，而中间的大部分事情都会——他说得一点没错。
You're gonna remember the end and, like, so much in the middle is gonna he said exactly what you said.
它们只是，模糊地混在一起了。
It just, like, blurs together.
是的。
Yeah.
所以他是在说你应该更多地记录下来。
So he's saying you should document it more.
我完全同意。
I totally agree.
很多年份都完全混在一起了。
Lot lots of years are totally running together.
我对这方面的记录还算不错，尤其是有了所有这些由AI驱动的代理式节点重处理、新闻推送等等，你实际上可以重建这些历史和时间线，我现在对此非常着迷。
I I have reasonable record keeping on this, so I I I and especially with all this AI led agentic, like, reprocessing of nodes and press and so on, you can actually reconstruct these histories and timelines, and I'm fascinated with this right now.
但是
But
所以我的理解是，你现在把经营公司看作是一个工程项目。
So my understanding, though, like, you thought you're now looking at running a company as, like, an engineering project.
没错。
That's right.
所以我觉得，让我们来工程化一家公司。
So I'm like, let's engineer a company.
做个公司工程师，就像我刚刚对我的团队说的那样。
Be a company engineer, as I just told my team.
每个部门都适用吗？你会工程化市场营销吗？
That applies for every single department in do you engineer marketing?
你会工程化所有事情吗？
Do you engineer everything?
所有事情。
Everything.
我要求我的高管们至少要告诉我，实际上要去做：参加一个播客或国际会议，每年都要谈谈Shopify是如何不同地处理会议主题相关的事情，以及为什么这样做更好。
I require my executives to I mean, at least tell me, but actually do it, go to a podcast, some international conference, and and and and talk about how Shopify does the thing the conference is about differently and why that's better every year.
如果他们无法清楚地说明自己目前是如何做这件事的，或者打算如何做，那就是我正在和他们一起努力厘清的信息。
If they don't have a good answer for how they are doing this right now or how they would, that's that's what I'm working on with them to crystallize that message.
我之所以这样做的原因有几个，我们稍后可以深入探讨，其中部分是心理层面的。
And there's a couple of reasons why I do it this particular way that we can get into that are partly psychological.
但这也
But, it's also
只是现在而已。
just like into now.
心理学上的原因是什么？我觉得是
What's the psychological I think it's
我研究过大脑，相当深入，而关于大脑，你最终得出的主要结论是：大脑其实是一个事后叙事协调机制。
I study the brain a little quite a bit, and, you know, the the main conclusion you get to about the brain is really that the brain is a retrospective narrative alignment mechanism.
它并不是一个出色的记录系统，但它主要试图选取最显著的自我身份版本，并将过去的历史与之调和。
Not it's it's actually terrible record keeping, but it it mostly attempts to, take the most salient, version of our self identity and reconcile the history with it.
它会奖励那些与这种身份完全一致的行为，并阻止你做出与自我身份相冲突的事情。
And, it sort of rewards you for actions that are directly congruent with with this identity, and it dissuades you from dissonance with your own identity.
但你实际上可以相当大程度地改变自己的身份，而这会让整个过程为你所用，效果显著。
But you can actually, like, change your identity quite a bit, and that actually makes this whole process work for you significantly.
你所说的改变身份是什么意思？
What do you mean by change your identity?
比如，你如何看待自己？
Like, the way you view yourself?
真的，积极肯定真的有效。
Literally, affirmations work.
对吧？
Right?
就像，积极肯定真的有效，这是最愚蠢却管用的技巧。
Like, affirmations work, which is the dumbest trick that that that works.
太好了你提到这个，因为外人会觉得，这家伙明明很理性、像工程师。
So glad you're saying this because people from the outside are like, this guy is, like, very logical engineering.
不是的。
No.
你其实完全靠直觉。
It's like And but you're all about intuition.
现在你又在谈积极肯定了。
Now you're talking about affirmations.
你这是在对牛弹琴，不过你知道吗。
You're speaking to the choir, just so you know.
我是个工具制造者。
I'm a toolmaker.
我总是表现得非常理想主义，但实际上我并没有那么理想主义。
Like, I always project very idealistic, but I'm actually not that idealistic.
我本质上是个手艺人，是个工具制造者。
I'm super I'm I'm I'm like a craft person, toolmaker person.
我这一生都在制造工具。
I I my entire life was making tools.
我 literally 我的工具是切削机。
I literally my pro my pro I chopfizer tool.
我经常为工具制造者制作工具。
I make tools very often for toolmakers.
我的爱好就是为工程师、为制造工具的人制作工具。
Like, my my hobbies is making tools for engineers, for people who make tools.
对吧？
Right?
所以，我的人生就像工具制造的分形。
So like, it's a like my life's a fractal of toolmaking.
这全都是关于工具制造的美学。
It's all about toolmaking aesthetics.
这全都是关于背后的工艺。
It's all about the craft behind it.
但也不仅仅是因为工艺本身，尽管我也欣赏这一点。
But also also not because of craft for its own sake, although I appreciate that too.
但就连这一点也不是出于理想主义的原因，因为欣赏工具制造背后的工艺，恰恰是高效修剪的实用绝佳方式。
But even that's not for idealistic reasons because appreciating the craft behind the tool making happens to be pragmatically an excellent way to get really good at pruning.
一切都关乎结果。
Like, everything is about outcomes.
但肯定的部分是什么呢？
What's the affirmation part, though?
肯定句的作用是，如果你反复告诉自己或写下一百遍关于自己的某件事，它就会深深植入你的前额叶皮层，让你的大脑开始接受这个事实。
The affirmation that, like, you are if if you tell yourself or or write down a 100 times something about yourself, that writes it into the neurofrontal cortex at such a deep level that your brain will start reconciling you to that.
它真的有效。
It just works.
我经常用这种方法，比如，我以前特别害怕公开演讲，直到我花了一周时间，每天花十分钟写下‘我喜欢公开演讲’。
I I've used that very often to, like, I, you know, like, I I was terrified of public speaking until I just sat down for, like, a week, and every day I spent, like, ten minutes just writing that I like public speaking.
我喜欢公开演讲。
I love public speaking.
你确实写过，我知道。
You you wrote that I I know.
对。
Yes.
现在你真的喜欢上了。
And now you you love it.
是的。
Yeah.
就像一周后，我知道了，当你知道自己在做什么时，这招真的管用。
Like and a week later, and I knew it's not this works when you know what you're doing.
对吧？
Right?
比如，这根本不是安慰剂效应。
Like, you don't even it's, like, it's not like a placebo.
它实际上是，你此刻就在主动改变你的神经前额皮层。
It's, it's actually, like, you just actively change your neural frontal cortex in this moment.
所以我经常用这个方法。
So I I I use this often.
我经常会给自己写信，像漂流瓶一样的那种话。
I I sort of write to myself, message in a bottle, these kind of things.
这完全是另一个话题了。
That's all of a different topic.
但，呃，不是这样的。
But, like, it's No.
不。
No.
所以重点是，我我
So the point is, like, I I
你说的是这个话题吗？
tell the topic there?
等一下。
Hold on.
你给自己写消息？
You write messages to yourself?
是的。
Yeah.
肯定语，还是只是
Affirmations or just
不。
No.
就是，一般来说，当我感觉有什么事情出现时，比如，嘿。
It's just like like, generally, when I feel like something is like, hey.
我发现了一件我真的很喜欢的事情。
There's something I figured out that I really like.
现在我必须给自己安排一条消息，来记住它。
And now I have to write a scheduled message to myself, to remember it.
因为，我需要对这个想法进行间隔重复。
Because, like, I I need spaced repetition on on on the idea.
能举个例子吗？
What's an example of that?
我的意思是，比如，我们公司每年会举办一次大型全体会议，持续大约四周。
I mean, for for instance, like, we have a company keynote for, like, kind of thing, like a company get together summit once a year and for around to four week.
通常我会在会上做主题演讲，然后把关于这个过程的优缺点、下次该如何改进等内容写成一封‘瓶中信’，全都留在待办事项里，以便有个好的开端。
And so, usually, I did a keynote there and, like, then I write a message in a bottle to myself if what was good about the process, what was bad about the process, what it to do next different differently, and all the topics are left in the cutting board just so, like, to get a head start.
这就是一个随机的例子。
So that's a random example of that.
你是怎么学会这一点的？比如改变身份、肯定语有效、给自己写这些信息？
How did you learn this, that you could change identity, that affirmations work, that writing these things to yourself?
我觉得是通过不断尝试和犯错，但我觉得线索其实无处不在。
I think trial and error, but, like, I think the hints are, like, everywhere.
对吧？
Right?
我的意思是，肯定语就是那种东西，社会之所以创造仪式，肯定是有原因的。
Like, it's mean, affirmations are one of those things that, like, I mean, there's a reason why the, like, society creates rituals.
对吧？
Right?
因为仪式本质上就是反复进行的肯定语。
Because rituals end up being largely affirmations on on repeat.
对吧？
Right?
那你怎么看待可视化呢？
So What do you think of visualization?
比如，显化这类事情，我可能也读过不少相关的书。
Like, so manifestation, these kind of things, I I probably books too.
你知道吗？
I've you know what?
有趣的是，我觉得只要你去做，所有方法都会有效。
The funny thing, I think everything works if if you if you just do it.
关键在于哪种方法更有效、更快速。
The question is what's effective and quick.
我之前听起来像是，开始读了很多传记。
It sounded to me before, like, I started doing all reading all these biographies.
我当时觉得，这简直是一派胡言，是的。
I was like, this is some willy foo foo Yeah.
胡说八道。
Nonsense.
对。
Yeah.
然后你会看到许多聪明、富有分析力、逻辑性强的发明家和工程师，这种情况一再出现。
And then you see very smart, analytical, logical, in many case, inventors and engineers, and it appears over and over again.
人们彼此并不认识。
People didn't know each other.
他们身处不同的行业、不同的时代、地球的不同角落，却都提到在做这件事。
They didn't they worked in different industries, different times, different parts of the planet, and they all talk about doing this.
这是构建过程的一部分。
And it's part of the construction.
他们用不同的语言得出了相同的结论。
They all come to the same conclusions in different words.
是的。
Yeah.
所以，没错，我个人在软性层面非常认同这种哲学：掌控你能控制的事情，认清什么是你无法控制的，然后尽最大努力去做。
And so, yeah, I I'm I'm I personally mean, in the in in the soft department, I'm extremely taking the philosophy, control what's under what is under your control, know what is, and then do the best possible job.
重点在于行动本身。
It's the job is the thing.
就像整个生命项目就是努力变得非常、非常擅长某件事，最好能培养出一些重要的技能，创造出可能有服务价值的产品，然后与尽可能多的人分享。
Like like, the the whole project in life is just try to become very, very good at something and ideally cultivate some significant skill, create potentially service products, and then share them with as many people.
对吧？
Right?
你这么做是因为这就是你计划去实现的目标。
Like, you you do this because that's what you're on plan to afford.
对吧？
Right?
就像，去做那些在这个世界上真正重要、且在你掌控之内的事情，同时也要主动投身于最有趣的地方，只要你始终记得自己在其中的角色是什么。
Like, it's like, do things that matter in the world that are under your control, but also sign yourself up for like, it's okay to sign yourself up for most interesting places as long as you remember what your job is in within them.
因此，我喜欢这个时代，我也热爱科技行业。
So in this way, like, I I love the current times, and I I love the technology industry.
我在其中扮演着一个角色，那就是照顾数百万的创业者和小企业，他们正试图通过自己的努力运用科技和零售的力量，而这一切正在成为现实。
I have a role inside of it, which is, like, I'm taking care of millions of entrepreneurs and small businesses that, you know, are trying to use the word of technology, use the word of retail through their own work then that's actualized.
这是一个值得追求的目标，也是一份值得做的工作。
And that is a worthy goal and worthy job.
所以你知道吗，AI出现了，人们都在说，我是不是该创办一个AI实验室之类的？
And so, like, you know, AI comes out and I'm like, people are like, well, should I start an AI lab or whatever?
或者你难道不想去OpenAI工作吗？
Or should I like don't you want to, you work at OpenAI?
但说实话，所有事情都挺有意思的，但你知道吗？
And it's like, I mean, everything would be interesting, but you know what?
真正酷的是什么？
What's really cool?
在不断变化的环境中持续解决同一个问题。
Pursuing the same problem in a changing landscape.
对吧？
Right?
现在，我可以重新塑造我之前做过的所有事情。
Like, now I get to reinvent everything I've already done.
这有多有趣啊？
How how fun is that?
对吧？
Right?
因为我真的很关心这些问题。
Because I really care about these problems.
Anyway，回到积极肯定和大脑的自我锻炼上。
Anyway, back to the affirmations and sort of a brain sort of self gymnastics.
去找我的团队，直接说：听好了。
Going to the my my team and just saying, look.
你知道，直接告诉我你上台要讲什么，这很糟糕。
You know, just tell me what you will talk about on stage is bad.
事后，你需要把这当作一种承诺内化下来，我想象那应该是他们在意的事，他们在意去调和它，所以也许他们不得不去做。
It's like, afterwards, you need to internalize this as something that you have committed to me as imagining I imagine that's something they care about they care about reconciling, and so maybe they have to do it.
你知道吧？
You know?
因为否则的话，他们就是对我说了不真实的话。
Because otherwise, they, you know, said something untrue to me.
对吧？
Right?
而且，他们并不认为自己会说不真实的话，因此，你可以以这种方式让和解真正为你自己的利益发挥作用。
And, like, they don't see themselves as someone who says untrue things, and therefore, you know, you can actually make the reconciliation work for for your own benefit in this in this kind of way.
这也意味着，它强调了差异。
It also just means like, it emphasizes, like, difference.
差异真的很重要。
Like, difference is so important.
从项目一开始，或者从决策一开始，绝对不能允许自以为是的存在。
It's so like, autodoxy just really needs to be off the table from the beginning of a project or, like, from the beginning of decision making.
你有没有研究过詹姆斯·戴森？
Have you ever studied James Dyson?
没有。
No.
好的。
Okay.
如果我只能推荐一本书，那就是他的第一本自传。
If I can only recommend one book ever, it's his first autobiography.
但他有一句非常疯狂的话是这么说的。
But one of the he has a he has a crazy line about this.
这在伟大的企业家中也非常常见，你之前也提到过。
So this is also very common with great entrepreneurs, and you you hit on your earlier talks.
比如，如果你想追求卓越，想成为世界上最好的，或者制造出最棒的工具。
Like, well, if you wanna I'm trying to chase excellence, trying to be the best in the world or make the best tools possible.
因此，这要求差异，要求我所走的这条道路、这个使命。
Like, therefore, that demands difference, that that path, that mission I'm on.
我做不到。
I can't do it.
如果都一样，那就不可能是最好的。
Literally, it can't be the best if it's the same.
是的。
Yeah.
对。
Right.
没错。
Exactly.
你就想想这个。
Like, just think about this.
是的。
Yeah.
比如埃德温·兰德，他是史蒂夫·乔布斯的偶像，宝丽来公司的创始人，他有一个个人座右铭。
And so, like, Edwin Land, who's Steve Jobs hero and the founder of Polaroid, he he had a personal motto.
他说，我的个人座右铭非常个人化，可能不适合你，但他说过：不要做任何别人能做的事。
He says, my personal motto is very personal, and it may not work for you, but he said it is don't do anything that somebody else can do.
他根本不会去生产跟别人雷同的产品。
He just would not he I'm not making a me too product.
但我提到戴森，是因为他现在拥有全球最有价值的私营公司之一。
But the reason I bring up Dyson, because now he owns one of the most valuable privately held companies in the world.
对吧？
Right?
是的。
Yeah.
但他写那本书的时候，生意已经不错了，但产品只进入了一个或两个市场。
But he's writing that book when the business was fine, but he had one product in, one or two markets.
每年的收入达到了三亿美元。
It was doing, 300,000,000 a year of revenue.
这生意不算差，但相比接下来三四十年里它增长到的规模，还是非常小的。
Not a bad business, but a very small compared to the size that it it compounded to over the next, like, four decades or three decades.
他在那本书中提到，即使在那个时候，他也强调差异化和对全局的完全掌控。
And he says in that book, even at that time, he's like, differentiation and retention of total control.
他说，即使产品更差，也要让它与众不同。
And he goes, it he goes, you make it different even if it's worse.
是的。
Yeah.
这是我读过最疯狂的一句话。
That's one of the craziest sentences I've ever read.
我完全同意
I totally agree with
即使更差也要与众不同。
to be different even if it's worse.
完全同意。
Completely agree.
我经常看到这种情况，因为这又回到了模仿绘画的问题。
I see it all the time because, again, it gets back into the copying of a painting problem.
比如，你可以通过复制市场上已有的七分解决方案，来做出一个七分的方案。
Like, you can make a seven out of 10 solution to everything by copying the seven out of 10 that already out there in
的
the
市场。
market.
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