亲爱的Sugar，第一集：认识The Sugars

在我生命的不同阶段，我曾试图与他沟通。

Now at different points throughout my life, I tried to engage him.

我尝试看他是否能成为我心目中理想的父亲。

I tried to see if he could be the father I wanted him to be.

但他始终未能做到。

And he never could.

大约在我22岁的时候，我终于做到了。

But after a certain point, I did when I was about 22.

那时我22岁，母亲去世了。

Well, I was 22 when my mom died.

就在那时，我真正意识到，如果我想拥有美好的人生，就必须找到治愈这道创伤的方法，宽恕我父亲的过失。

And that is when I really thought, if I am going to have a good life, I need to come up with a way to heal this wound and to forgive my father for his failings.

是的。

Yeah.

你知道，

You know,

无论它们多么巨大。

large as they were.

所以我可以告诉这位来信者，这确实是可能的。

And so I can say to this this letter writer, you know, that this is really possible.

我知道现在听到这些话的许多人，他们也不得不这样做。

And I know so many people who are hearing these words right now, you know, they have had to do that.

你知道吗？

You know?

我们中许多人都不得不面对父母大大小小的过失。

Many, many of us have had to come to grips with parents who who failed us in ways large and small.

这就是成长的一部分意义。

That's part of what it means to grow up.

而我认为对我来说，这项工作的一部分还包括重新定义宽恕的含义。

And I think that for me, part of doing that work has to do with also, like, reconceiving what we mean by forgiveness.

它不是一次性完成的单一行为。

It's not one act at one time.

这不是一个决定。

It's not one decision.

对。

Right.

这不是某一天你突然顿悟，然后所有的悲伤和愤怒就都消失了。

It's not one, you know, like, day where you have an epiphany and then and then all of your sorrow and rage is gone.

而是经年累月。

It's years.

是数十载。

It's it's decades.

是几十年的光阴

It's decades

没错。

Right.

在这个过程中不断告诉自己：我站在这里，你或许是个黑暗导师，但你确实教会了我一些东西。

Of saying, here I am, and you might have been a dark teacher, but you were a teacher.

谢谢你。

And thank you.

是啊。

Yeah.

我有个一直想问你的问题。

Here's my question to you that I've been wondering about.

我能很清楚地追溯为什么我喜欢处于倾听真实情况的位置。

I can trace back very clearly why I think I like to be in the position of of hearing what's really going on.

但对你来说，你认为你性格中的什么特质吸引你担任提供建议的角色？

But for you, what do you think in your character draws you to that role of of being somebody who offers counsel?

这要追溯到很久以前

It goes way back

嗯。

Mhmm.

追溯到最初。

To the very beginning.

你知道吗，我六七岁学会阅读时，就被语言的力量深深震撼了。

You know, when I was six or seven and learned how to read, I was so amazed by the power of language.

语言能成为窥探内心世界的窗口，这让我惊叹不已。

I was so amazed by how language could be used as a window into the interior life.

这种人们都试图隐藏的内心生活。

This life that people were all around me trying to keep concealed.

小时候我总是过分好奇，好奇到让周围的大人都觉得尴尬。

And when I was a kid, I was always just very curious to an extent that was embarrassing to the adults around me.

当妈妈的朋友来访时，她会跟我说：'好了雪柔，你只能问三个问题。'

When my mom's friends would come over, she would say to me, Okay, Cheryl, you can ask three questions.

就这样。

That's it.

她必须设定限制，因为我会坐在那里不停地盘问他们。

Like she would have to put a limit because I would sit there and I would grill them.

如果有夫妻来做客，我常问的一个问题是：'你们到底为什么相爱？'

And one of the questions that I would often ask if a couple came over, I would say to them, why do you really love each other?

我想要听真实的故事。

I wanted the real story.

就像你说的那样。

Just like what you said.

我想要了解表象之下的真相。

I wanted what was beneath.

我想要那些不显而易见的东西。

I wanted what was not apparent.

那你呢，史蒂夫？

So what about you, Steve?

比如你接受心理治疗的经历是怎样的？

Like what's your background with therapy?

我的心理治疗经历啊。

My background with therapy.

天啊，我给你看看我的账单就知道了。

God, I'll show you my bills.

我是说，这绝对是我们家的信仰。

I mean, I absolutely it was a family religion.

我是说，我父母都是精神病学家，后来成为精神分析师，我就是在这样的环境中长大的。

I mean, I grew up with parents who were psychiatrists and then psychoanalysts.

当我告诉别人这件事时，人们的反应非常有趣。

And people the reaction is so interesting when I tell people this.

人们的第一反应总是：哦，那你一定是个疯子。

The first thing people say is, oh, you must be crazy.

每个和我交谈的人都说，哦，你一定是疯了。

Every single person I talk to says, oh, you must be so crazy.

就好像如果我说我父母是消防员，他们就会认为我是个纵火狂似的。

As if somehow if if I said my parents were firemen, they would think I was a a pyromaniac.

我觉得这让人们有种被指控的感觉。

I think it makes people feel indicted in some way.

就像精神科医生或治疗师那样，能看到别人看不到的东西，赋予你这种黑暗的预知能力之类的。

Like, psychiatrists or therapists or people who can see things that other people can't see and it gives you this kind of dark clairvoyance or something.

事实恰恰相反，我完全不知道父母是做什么工作的。

The truth of the matter is just the opposite, that I had no idea what my parents did.

他们从不谈论自己的病人。

They never talked about their patients.

这对我来说很神秘。

It was mysterious to me.

我只知道他们回家时总是精疲力尽，而且我们家里很少有情感和心理层面的交流。

All I knew was that they came home very drained and that there wasn't a lot of emotional and psychological discourse in our house.

人们以为客厅里会摆着某种精神分析躺椅，他们会说‘哦，这很有意思，孩子’

People think that there was some analytic couch, you know, in the living room and that they'd say, oh, well, that's very interesting, son.

我想或许我曾幻想过那种场景会发生

I think maybe my fantasy was that that would happen.

但我们很少谈论情感和心理，这就像你小时候那种未被满足的渴望——‘我要弄清这件事的真相’

But we didn't talk a lot about emotion and psychology, and it was an unrequited desire just like you as a little kid saying, I wanna get to the bottom of this.

人们保守着所有这些秘密，而我想要将它们公之于众

There are all these secrets that people are keeping, and I want them out in the open.

我一直都在追寻这些答案。

I've always been reaching after that.

当我从记者转行发现小说创作的可能性后，不再只是追问外在事件——谁去了哪里，我开始阅读并意识到：等等，最有趣的问题其实是‘为什么’？

And when I found fiction and the possibility after being a journalist and asking these external questions who went where, you know, I started reading and realizing, wait a second, the most interesting questions are why?

最耐人寻味的困惑莫过于失去与遗憾。

The most interesting forms of bewilderment are loss and regret.

为什么我们总是选错人？

Why do we choose the wrong people?

为什么我们会做出伤害自己的糟糕决定？

Why do we make, you know, bad decisions that are hurtful to us?

为什么我们留不住如此珍贵的爱？

Why can't we hold on to love that feels so precious?

为什么我们要背负内疚与愤怒？

Why do we carry around guilt and rage?

所有这些追问让我觉得：如果不去挖掘这些本质问题，活着的意义又是什么？

And, you know, all these questions that were questions that feel to me like, what's the point of being on earth if you're not gonna try to unearth this stuff?

从某种奇怪的角度来说，我觉得这是对我父母的一种致敬。

I think in a weird way, it's like my homage to my parents.

我想这就是为什么我会被建议专栏这个概念所吸引，但更重要的是看到你所做的工作时，我会感叹‘哇’。

I think that's why for me, I was drawn to the advice column as a as a concept, but even it was especially important for me to see the work that you did and to say, oh, wow.

你知道吗，这才是正确的做法。

You know, that's really the way to do it.

你必须敞开心扉，才能完全沉浸在他人的痛苦和经历中，给予他们某种清晰的指引，或至少让他们在困境的疑虑中感到些许安慰。

You gotta lay yourself bare in order to fully immerse yourself in somebody else's anguish, what they're going through, and give them any sort of clarity or at least make them comfortable in the doubt of their circumstance.

所以这对我来说是最激动人心的部分。

So that's the exciting part for me.

让我们听听那些随机而来的心声吧。

You know, let's hear what comes in across the transom.

让我们听听人们正在挣扎的真实故事，看看我们能做些什么来帮助他们。

Let's hear what people are struggling with, the real story, and, you know, see what we can do to help.

在寻找全家都会喜欢的播客吗？

Seeking a podcast the whole family will love?

快来收听《Circle Round》节目，享受那些关于花园里贪吃的山羊、自负的郊狼（哟吼）的永恒民间故事。

Check out Circle Round and enjoy timeless folktales about garden eating goats Cocky coyotes Yeehaw.

会说话的罐子（哇哦）。

Talking pots Wee.

还有更多精彩内容。

And more.

我们数百个民间故事中都有你熟悉并喜爱的声音，比如《辛普森一家》的亚德利·史密斯（哎呀，真是的）。

Our hundreds of folktales feature voices you know and love, like the Simpsons' Yardley Smith Oh, for crying out loud.

百老汇的比利·波特

Broadway's Billy Porter

那是一只

Is that a

奶牛吗？

cow?

还有《宋飞正传》的杰森·亚历山大

And Seinfeld's Jason Alexander.

你真是个天才。

You are a genius.

在您收听播客的任何平台都能找到《Circle Round》。

Find Circle Round wherever you get your podcasts.

亲爱的Sugar，我写信给你是因为我完全陷入了困境。

Dear Sugar, I'm writing you because I am absolutely stuck.

我拥有一个出色的丈夫和两个可爱的孩子，这让我倍感幸福。

I have been blessed with an amazing husband and two gorgeous children.

但问题在于。

But here's my problem.

我丈夫想要第三个孩子。

My husband wants a third.

我是个职场妈妈，丈夫工作时间很长，所以孩子们放学回家时我无法指望他能陪在身边。

I'm a working mother, and my husband works long hours, so I can't depend on him to be around when the kids come home from school.

就目前而言，在工作、参与孩子们的校园生活、家庭运转之间周旋，我已经感到力不从心了。

And as it is between work and trying to be involved in their schools and lives and running a household, I already feel like I'm failing.

我试着想象在完成所有这些事情的同时还要停下来喂奶或换尿布，这似乎是不可能的。

I try to imagine doing all those things while stopping to feed a baby or change a diaper, and it seems impossible.

尽管我知道这是可行的，但感觉毫无吸引力。

Even though I know it is possible, it seems unappealing.

当我看到别人带着婴儿时，我会想到自己无法想象重回那个阶段有多艰难，以及我多么庆幸那不是我的孩子。

When I see other people with babies, I think about how I cannot imagine being back in that stage, how hard it was, and how I'm so happy that it's not my baby.

更自私一点说，我结婚很早。

On a more selfish note, I got married young.

然后我们俩直接去了研究生院，我毕业时已经怀孕了，但不得不开始工作。

Then we both went straight to grad school, and I graduated already pregnant but had to start working.

我内心有一部分终于觉得能够拥有一点自由和自己的时间了。

There's a part of me that finally feels like I'm able to have a little freedom and time to myself.

我又能看书了，又能锻炼了，尽管是在早上五点半。

I'm able to read books again, work out again, albeit at 05:30 in the morning.

在某些日子里，我真的感觉自己又像个人了。

And on some days, I actually feel human again.

我确实喜欢这样的想法：当我和丈夫还足够年轻时，孩子们已经比较独立，我们可以享受生活，有时间进行活动或旅行——这些我们从未能实现的事情。

I do like the idea of the kids being more independent when my husband and I are still young enough to enjoy ourselves and spend time doing activities or traveling, something that we've never been able to do.

但就在我思考这一切并觉得似乎很明确时，内心有个小小的声音告诉我，我是在选择轻松的路，而我过去那些最艰难的决定反而带来了最美好的结果。

But just as I think all these things and it seems clear, there's a small part of me that feels like I'm taking the easy way out, that feels like my hardest decisions have been the most wonderful.

我不禁自问，未来是否会为此后悔。

And I ask myself if I'll regret it later.

亲爱的，我只是需要一些方向。

I just need some direction, sugar.

拜托。

Please.

真诚地，被困住了。

Sincerely, stuck.

史蒂夫，你怎么看？

Steve, what do you think?

哦，天哪。

Oh, boy.

我有第三个孩子，我们经历了一段非常复杂的决策过程才最终决定要第三个孩子。

I have a third child, and we had a very complicated path to deciding or winding up with a third child.

我不确定我们做了多少有意识的决定，但确实经历了许多潜意识和有意识的挣扎。

I don't know how much conscious decision making we did, but a lot of unconscious and conscious struggling with it.

我深深理解这位女性的处境，但我也认为她其实知道答案。

And I feel for this woman deeply, but I also think she knows the answer.

你看，她是个职场妈妈，却要操持整个家，而且她也知道丈夫在孩子放学后不会在家。

You know, she's a working mom, but she has to run the household, and she also knows that her husband's not gonna be around when the kids come home from school.

所以爸爸说'我想要第三个孩子'当然轻松。

So it's easy for a dad to say, I want a third baby.

确实如此。

Absolutely.

因为他大概只会承担25%到30%的工作量？

Because he's gonna be doing, what would you say, 25%, 30% of the work?

如果我们完全诚实地说，可能连这个比例都不到。

Probably less than that if we're truly deeply honest.

嗯。

Mhmm.

这位女性想要重获自己的生活，想要找回自我认同感，却又被这些渴望是自私的想法所困扰。

And this woman wants her life back, and she wants a sense of identity, and yet she's plagued by the feeling that those desires are selfish.

这不是很有趣吗？

Isn't that interesting?

这封信对我来说最耐人寻味的部分就在于此。

That's one of the most interesting parts of the letter for me.

而且你也经常听到这种普遍的说法。

And you hear it a lot too, just at large.

那些选择不成为母亲的女性，或者不生育第三个孩子的女性，在某种程度上被认为是自私的。

Women who don't choose to become mothers are somehow selfish, or women who don't have that third baby.

这怎么能算是自私呢？

How can that be selfish?

我认为长期以来我们一直被负罪感绑架，要求成为养育者、成为母亲，即使我们不是母亲或不想成为母亲，以至于我们将独立、自主权或关于你真正想如何度过人生的理性决策与之等同起来。

I think we've been guilt tripped for so long to be the nurturers, to be the mothers, even when we aren't mothers or don't want to be, that we equate independence or agency or a sort of intellectual decision about what you'd actually like to do with your life Right.

等同于自我中心或自私。

With being self absorbed or being selfish.

我认为这完全错误。

I think that's absolutely incorrect.

对。

Right.

而对女性的刻板假设是她们应该想成为母亲，并且母亲应该完全无私。

And the the categorical assumption about women is that they should wanna be mothers and that mothers should be entirely selfless.

她们应该被定义为这样一种人：从怀孕那一刻起就为别人而活。

That they should be defined as human beings who the moment they become impregnated are living for somebody else.

这是最具破坏性的迷思之一。

And it is one of the most destructive myths.

有种罪行不敢言说，那就是母性矛盾心理。

It's sort of the crime that dare not speak its name is maternal ambivalence.

我想说的是，或许我们应该扩展讨论范围，因为确实有很多人——我当然也曾如此——在这个问题上挣扎过。

What I would say is that maybe we should expand the conversation because so many people you have, I certainly did, struggled with the question.

我觉得有必要和我妻子谈谈这个，因为我认为我们应该给她打个电话。

I think it's worth talking to my wife about this because I think we should call her up.

天哪。

Oh gosh.

她有三个孩子。

She's got three kids.

她根本不可能回答这个问题

There's no way she can answer this She

能回答你在哪里吗？

can answer where are you?

你帮了大忙。

And you're being very helpful.

确实如此。

Exactly.

典型。

Typical.

我想象她正在擦拭瓶子。

I imagine her swabbing the bottle.

嗨。

Hi.

这里是艾琳·阿尔蒙德。

You've reached Erin Almond.

请给我留言。

Please leave me a message.

该死的，艾琳。

Damn it, Erin.

我会尽快回复你。

I will get back to you as soon as I can.

艾琳在哪里？

Where is Erin?

我确切地知道艾琳在哪里。

I know exactly where Erin is.

艾琳正在应付一个虽不算肠绞痛发作，但极其专横的15岁孩子。

Erin is dealing with a not quite colicky, but deeply tyrannical 15 old.

她还有个五岁孩子，可能正和她八岁的女儿打架。

She's got a five year old who's probably fighting with her eight year old daughter.

我完全明白她为什么没法接电话。

I know exactly why she can't pick up that phone.

嗯，我觉得我们该打电话给我丈夫，因为我们在这个问题上持相反立场，原因正是你和亚伦决定要孩子时的考量。

Well, I think that we should call my husband because we fell on the other side of this question for the same reasons that you and Aaron decided to have a baby.

我们当初非常向往那种拥有孩子后的浓烈爱意。

We were very drawn to this idea of just that big love that you have when you have a baby.

这种感觉无与伦比。

It's there's nothing like it.

养育孩子是我们做过最棒的事。

It's the best thing we've ever done is have our children.

所以我们想，那何不再要一个呢？

And so we thought, well, why not more?

然后我们决定不这样做了。

And we decided not to.

话虽如此。

Having said all that.

话虽如此，那我们就打电话给我丈夫，讨论一下我们的想法吧。

Having said all that, so let's let's call my husband and talk about what what we came up with.

你好。

Hello.

嗨，亲爱的。

Hi, sweetie.

嘿，亲爱的。

Hey, hon.

史蒂夫和我有个听众的问题要请教。

So Steve and I have a question from a listener.

好的。

Okay.

她和她的丈夫正在考虑要第三个孩子。

And she and her husband are thinking about a third child.

她丈夫是赞成的。

Her husband is in favor of it.

她本人对此有些开放态度，但主要表达的是许多疑虑和勉强。

And she's slightly open to it, but mostly what she reports is a lot of doubt and reluctance.

嗯。

Mhmm.

我们有两个漂亮的孩子，但我们确实讨论过要第三个。

You and I have our two beautiful kids, but we did have a conversation about having a third.

你还记得吗？

Do you remember?

我记得。

I do remember.

是的。

Yes.

是你吗？

Was that you?

是我。

That was me.

能和我们分享一下你的想法吗？比如，为什么你想要一个？

So would you share with us your thoughts about, you know, why did you wanna have one?

为什么我们会如此深入且认真地考虑这种可能性？

Why did we entertain that possibility so deeply and seriously?

又为什么最终决定不要呢？

And why did we decide not to?

嗯，我记得我们当时对此非常开放且兴奋，但同时也因为感觉压力太大而有些畏惧。

Well, as I recall, we were very open to it and excited by it, but we were also a little bit intimidated just by how kind of far stretched we we felt.

与其说是决定不要，不如说是我们掷了骰子，让命运来决定是否会有第三个孩子。

I think more so than, like, coming to a decision not to have one, we rolled the dice and, you know, kind of let the universe decide whether or not we would have the third.

你懂我的意思吗？

You know?

嗯，你是什么意思？

Well, what do you mean?

我是说，我们没有采取避孕措施，而且有那么一段时间我们以为你怀孕了。

Well, I mean, we weren't using birth control and we had that time where we thought you were pregnant.

嗯，但我知道。

Well, but we I know.

那是个误会。

That was a sort of mistake.

我是说，那次的事情，你会记得的。

I mean, the time see, you will remember.

不。

No.

你会记得的。

You will remember.

事情是这样的。

So here's what happened.

你知道，那时我们的孩子还小，我们几乎没时间过夫妻生活，因为全部精力都放在照顾孩子上了。

So, you know, our kids were toddlers and we were hardly ever having sex with each other because we were so consumed with the care of the kids.

记得我们去明尼苏达度假时，带着孩子住在那间小木屋里，我当时有个想法。

And remember we went on vacation and we were staying in this cabin with the kids in Minnesota and I had this idea.

你还记得是什么想法吗？

Do you remember what the idea was?

做爱？

To have sex?

每一天都要。

Every single day.

就是每天都要做爱，记得吗，每天。

It was to have sex, remember, every day.

这简直是你有史以来最棒的主意。

That's like the greatest idea you've ever had.

所以我们的假期就——

And so our vacation was I

亲爱的，我超爱你的主意。

love the I love your ideas, hon.

然后每天我们都互相提醒说，好吧。

And every day, we were like, okay.

我们必须做爱。

We have to have sex.

那不是很有趣吗？

And wasn't that fun?

简直太棒了。

It was great.

真的特别有意思。

It was so fun.

我还专门研究了自己的生理周期之类的。

And I had done all of this sort of looking at my cycle and stuff.

我当时说，接下来十天我们不仅要每天做爱，而且绝对安全，因为正好是我的安全期。

And I said, not only are we gonna have sex every day for, the next ten days, we're also completely safe because of, like, where I am in my cycle.

还记得我们当时开车离开的时候吗？

And then remember we were, like, driving away.

然后我就说，你知道吗？

And I was like, you know what?

我当时看着日历说，我觉得我可能算错了几天的日期。

And I was, like, looking at the calendar, and I said, I think I actually miscalculated just by, like, a few days.

是啊。

Yeah.

那时候我们简直惊呆了。

And this is when we were like, oh my gosh.

然后这引发了整个对话。

And then this started this whole conversation.

呃，我们该不该这样做？

Well, should we?

我们不该这样做吗？

Should we not?

如果我们真要这么做的话，现在就是最佳时机，因为我马上就要40岁了。

Now would be the moment to do it if we're gonna do it because I was just about to turn 40.

某种程度上也可以说是我自找的。

We could also say maybe in some ways I was asking for it.

你知道，我并不这么觉得，但或许在某些方面确实如此。

You know, I don't feel that I was, but but maybe in some ways I was.

不过之后我们还是决定不这么做了。

But but then after that, we decided not to.

我认为连续一周每晚和丈夫无保护措施的性行为确实符合条件。

I think I think it does qualify having sex every night with your husband for a week without birth control.

十天。

Ten days.

十...十天。

Ten ten days.

天啊。

Oh my god.

要知道，我觉得这确实算得上是听天由命了。

You know, I think that does actually qualify as leaving it up to the universe.

是啊。

Yeah.

我想是吧。

I guess so.

但你知道，后来我们开始在意这件事了。

But, you know, but then we got conscious about it.

后来...后来当我们...当我以为我怀孕了却又不想怀孕时，之后我就变得谨慎多了。

And then and then we we we weren't when I thought I was pregnant and then didn't wanna be, I was a lot more careful after that.

你当时希望怎样？

What did you hope?

当我们以为我怀孕的时候，你希望是什么结果？

When we thought that I was pregnant, what were you hoping for?

我当时希望你怀孕。

I was hoping you were pregnant.

是啊。

Yeah.

但我也感觉像是被宇宙温柔地拥抱着，觉得无论发生什么都会没事的。

But I also felt kind of just like in the warm embrace of the universe and felt like, you know, whatever transpires will be fine.

想想挺有意思的，我记得那对我来说就像个警钟，因为我意识到你希望我怀孕，而我却害怕自己怀孕，一心希望没有怀孕。

Think What is interesting, I remember that's where it was like a wake up call for me because I was aware that you were hoping I was pregnant and I was terrified that I was pregnant and I was hoping I wasn't pregnant.

哇。

Wow.

我想，那时候我们坐下来认真讨论了这件事

And I think that, you know, then we sat down and we did this whole thing.

我们列了个长长的清单，写满了不该要第三个孩子的理由，也列了应该要的理由

We made this long list of all the reasons we should not have a third and then a list of the reasons we should.

支持要孩子的理由清单上只有一条，而反对的清单上却有一大堆

And there was only one thing on the list in favor of having a child and oodles of things on the other list.

但我确实觉得这很能说明问题——你当时是希望我怀孕的，而我却希望没有

But I did think that it really showed our hand that you were rooting for me being pregnant and I was rooting against it.

尽管我内心有一部分确实想要怀孕，但大部分的我并不想。

Even though a part of me wanted to be pregnant, most of me didn't.

这与我记得自己非常直白地认为自己一直处于慢车道有关。

And it had to do with, I just remember very literally thinking I had been in the slow lane.

你知道，我们有两个孩子，他们之间只相差十八个月，而这正好与我的职业起飞期重合。

You know, we had two kids who were eighteen months apart, which also coincided with my career, you know, really taking off.

我的第一本书出版时，我们的第二个孩子刚出生。

My first book was published when our second was a newborn.

我记得那种感觉就像在参加一场比赛，但一条腿被绑在桶上。

And I remember feeling like I was like running a race with like one of my legs tied to a bucket.

我无法像周围的人那样快速奔跑

And I couldn't run as fast as the people around me

是的。

Yep.

在职业发展上。

Professionally.

显然，我欣然接受了这样的生活。

And obviously, I did that, you know, happily.

要知道，成为母亲是世界上最美好的事情。

I was so you know, being a mother is the best thing ever.

但我也确实在某些方面感到受限。

But I was also I felt, you know, hindered in some ways.

我当时就想，好吧。

And I was like, okay.

我是否愿意在慢车道上再停留几年？

Am I willing to stay in the slow lane for another couple of years?

如果当时我们生了第三个孩子，情况就会是这样。

Which is what it would be if we'd had that third child.

但我认为你应该分享清单上支持生育的那个关键理由。

But I think it would be important for you to share what that one thing was on the list for reasons to do it.

因为这是我们一生中做过最棒的决定

Because it's the best thing we ever did in our whole

人生。

lives.

确实如此。

Exactly.

因为我们无比爱他们。

It was because we love them beyond measure.

这就足够了。

And it was enough.

你知道吗？

You know?

而在不这么做的理由清单上，我们负担不起。

And then on the list of not to, we can't afford it.

我们无法，你知道的，就是所有这些，你明白吗？

We can't you know, it's all all of you know?

而最主要、头号不这么做的理由是，我们得买一辆小型货车。

And the main one, the number one reason not to was that we were going to have to buy a minivan.

你买小型货车了吗，史蒂夫？

Did you buy a minivan, Steve?

我们没有买小型货车。

We did not buy a minivan.

实际上，我们买了一辆普锐斯，花了大约157个小时研究如何摆放三个汽车座椅

We, in fact, bought a Prius, and we spent about, I'm gonna say, a hundred and fifty seven hours trying to figure out what configuration of car seats could fit three

在

in

普锐斯的后备箱。

the back of a Prius.

那就是我们的问题。

That was our problem.

就像，我们只是觉得，我们真的得买辆新车，是的。

Like, we just we were like, we we'd have to buy we'd we'd honestly have to buy a new car Yeah.

如果我们生了第三个孩子。

If we had a third baby.

我来告诉你什么如此迷人。

I'll tell you what's so fascinating.

我记得艾琳告诉我这个消息时的情景。

I remember when Erin broke the news to me.

雪莉，我记得你说话时的两件事。

I remember two things as you were talking, Sheryl.

当她告诉我她怀孕时，你们列了个清单。

When she told me that she was pregnant, we you know, you guys made a list.

我们没列清单。

We didn't make a list.

我们完全是凭感觉行事，没有特别留心。

We were really flying by the seat of our pants, not paying very careful attention.

说实话，我对婴儿是怎么造出来的整个机制还是稀里糊涂的。

And I'm still foggy on the whole mechanics of how babies are made, frankly.

所以我清晰地记得她出现时的样子，她走进我办公室门口，脸上带着一种恶心的恐惧表情，我问：发生什么事了？

So I remember quite distinctly she showed up, she walked into the doorway of my office and she had a look on her face of just a kind of queasy terror and I said, what's going on?

她说，好消息是我们接下来九个月都不用担心避孕的事了。

And she said, well, the good news is we don't have to worry about birth control for the next nine months.

然后，她本想开个玩笑，却突然哭了起来。

And then, I mean, she was trying to make a joke, but she just burst into tears.

她非常担心我的反应，因为这不是我们计划中的事。

She was so worried about what my reaction was gonna be because it wasn't something that we'd planned.

我给了她一个拥抱，但同时也完全慌了神，悲痛欲绝——因为我当时的感受（这暴露了我的自私，但也反映了我的需求）是：我又要失去我的妻子了。

And I, you know, I I gave her a hug, but I also was absolutely panicked and really grief stricken because what I felt, and this speaks to my selfishness, but also to my need, was I'm gonna lose my wife again.

嗯。

Mhmm.

我又要失去我的妻子了。

I'm gonna lose my wife again.

我还记得大约四五个月时，亚伦正经历孕吐和情绪低落，我们争吵不断，孩子们也察觉到了紧张气氛。

I also remember about four or five months in when Aaron was, you know, nauseous and unhappy and we were fighting and our kids were picking up on the tension.

记得有天晚上我们吵架时，我对她说：要么这件事会摧毁我们，要么会让我们的关系更加紧密。

And I remember us having a fight one night and I just remember saying to her, look, this is either gonna break us or it's gonna bring us closer together.

我们只有这两种选择。

Those are the two choices here.

要么这个我们未曾计划过的第三个孩子——尽管私下里我们各自可能都暗自期待过——会因压力让我们分崩离析，要么会让我们更加紧密。

Either this third baby that we did not plan for even though secretly each of us in our own ways might have wished for it, is either gonna gonna blow us apart the pressure of it or it's gonna bring us closer together.

我认为它让我们更亲密了，但这位女士的思考方向是对的。

I think it's brought us closer together, but this woman is she is thinking the right things.

她明白这不仅仅是浪漫的部分。

She gets that it's not just gonna be the romantic part of it.

这是一个将彻底让她远离原有目标的现实问题。

It's a real thing that is gonna completely take her away from the the goals that she has.

尽管它如此美好，这件物品——我们做过最棒的事——出现在每位准父母的清单上。

As beautiful as it is, that that one item, it's the best thing we ever did, is on every single expecting parents list.

没错。

Right.

无论他们已有多少个孩子。

No matter how many kids they have.

是啊。

Yeah.

他们总是这样，我并不是想轻视这件事。

They always have that on I'm not to trying to trivialize it.

这是人类能做的最深刻的事情。

It is the most profound thing that human beings can do.

我觉得这是情感和心理上投入最多的事情，但它并非人们唯一要做的事，也不是每个人都必须做或必须做多少次的事。

I feel it's the most emotionally and psychologically involved, but it's not the only thing they do, and it's not something that everybody has to do or a certain number of times.

这位女士似乎非常掌控事实，坦白说，在这方面艾琳和我当初对自己的处境以及想要并有权追求的生活都远不如她这般清醒。

This woman seems very in control of the fact in a way, frankly, that Erin and I were not of her circumstances and the life that she wants to lead and has a right to lead.

没错。

Yeah.

而且我认为，从非常实际的角度来说，因为我们当时没有要第三个孩子，那段时间我们还在忙些什么？

And I think too, you know, in very practical terms, because we didn't have that third baby at that moment in our lives, what else we were doing during that time?

我当时在疯狂写作。

I was writing wild.

是啊。

Yeah.

而且

And

然后生下了

then giving birth to

生下了Sugar并撰写Sugar专栏。

Giving birth to sugar and writing the sugar column.

布莱恩正在制作他最新的纪录片《异乡男孩》。

Brian was making his most recent documentary, Alien Boy.

没错。

Yep.

那时孩子们都还是学步和学龄前阶段。

Kids were toddlers and preschoolers at this point.

对。

Right.

我们当时为钱发愁，为了付房租什么工作都接。

We were struggling for money and taking every job we could possibly take to pay the rent.

同时我们俩还都在进行着结果完全未知的大型艺术项目。

And then we were also both undertaking huge artistic projects for which the outcome was absolutely unknown.

但这里这封信是写给我的。

But here here's to me for this this letter.

最让我担心的是她传达出的那种育儿责任不平等的感觉。

Thing that concerns me the most is is the feeling that she conveys of of not kind of the parenting being equal.

对。

Right.

而且看起来他们的整个处境会发生很大变化，因为在怀孕和生孩子期间，他必须在很多方面成为主要的照顾者。

And it just seems like their whole situation is going to become very altered because he would have to be the main parent in many ways while she's pregnant and and, you know, having the child.

我对这种平衡关系有点担心。

And I'm I'm kind of worried about that that equation.

确实。

Right.

我是说，即使是史蒂夫和艾琳，你知道，你们的关系很平等，但艾琳陪孩子的时间比你多。

I mean, even Steve and Erin, you know, you have a equitable relationship, but Erin is with the kids more than you are.

确实如此。

Absolutely.

正如刚才所展示的，我有几点要说。

As as as was just demonstrated, there's a couple of things I'll say.

我认为根本问题或者说这封信最令人不安的地方，是她说的那句'我已经觉得自己在失败了'。

I think the fundamental problem or the thing that was most unsettling about woman's letter is the line when she says, I already feel like I'm failing.

是啊。

Yeah.

我想对她说的是，你并没有失败。

And what I would say to her is you're not failing.

你正在大获成功。

You're succeeding wildly.

你是一个非常清醒且专注的家长。

You're a very cognizant present parent.

你关心的事情都是对的。

You're concerned about the right things.

你可能需要重新协商一下婚姻中的条款，这样你的压力会小一些，也不会因为想要在母亲身份之外拥有自我而感到内疚。

You probably need to renegotiate the terms of your marriage a little bit so that you're under less pressure and feel less guilty about wanting to actually have an identity outside of being a mom.

她完全有权利这样做，并且不应该因为同时做着大约三份不同的工作而感到自己是个失败者。

She has the right to do that and to not feel like a failure because she's doing about three different jobs at the same time.

我们显然永远不能告诉别人该不该要孩子。

We obviously can never tell anyone to have a kid or not have a kid.

你知道，这是个决定。

That's, you know, a decision.

但我认为进行这类讨论真的很有帮助。

But I think it's really useful to have these kind of discussions.

我认为我们被灌输的这种观念，尤其是关于母性应该是纯洁、清晰、充满爱等等的想法。

I think that we're supposed to this idea, especially of motherhood is about purity and clarity and love and all of those things.

但实际上其中充满了矛盾情绪。

But really there's so much ambivalence.

而且并没有一条绝对正确的道路。

And there isn't one right path.

布莱恩，你对我们决定不要第三个孩子有什么遗憾吗？

Brian, do you have any regrets about our decision not to have a third?

没有。

No.

我只是觉得拥有两个孩子已经非常幸运，而且我的生活已经足够充实了。

I just feel so lucky to have the two and also that my plate's more than full.

是啊。

Yeah.

我想说我的遗憾是，如果时间允许的话，我可能会要第三个孩子。

I would say my regret was, you know, if I had more time, I would probably have a third.

如果我现在更年轻些，我可能会说，嘿，我们再要个宝宝吧。

If I were younger right now, I would maybe say, hey, let's have another baby.

但现实生活并非如此。

But that's just not how life is.

生命的美好之一，就是学会热爱那些你不得不放手的事物。

And one of the beautiful things about life is loving the things that you've had to let go.

你知道，我曾在'亲爱的糖'专栏写过一篇关于幽灵船的文章——那艘载不动我们的船，讲的就是向那艘你未能登上的船挥手致意。

You know, there's this column I wrote as Dear Sugar, the ghost ship that doesn't carry us, you know, that it's about waving to that ship that you're not aboard Yep.

同时承认那艘船上自有其美，而你却无缘得见。

And acknowledging that there's beauty on it, and you're not there for it.

但正因你无缘见证那份美，你才能邂逅另一种美好。

But because you're not there for it, you're there for another kind of beauty.

对

Right.

所以无论你有零个孩子、一个孩子、三个孩子还是十个孩子，生活中都会有不同版本的爱。

So whether you have zero kids or one kid or three kids or 10 kids, there's just a different version of love in your life.

是啊

Yeah.

而我们看着像你们这样的夫妻会想，哦，那本可能是我们要过的另一种生活。

And we look at couples like you guys and go, oh, that was the other life that we were gonna lead.

是啊。

Yeah.

没错。

Exactly.

好的，亲爱的。

Okay, sweetie.

我晚点回家，我们就可以开始十天的第一天了。

I'll be home later, and we can start our first of ten days.

嗯。

Yeah.

我觉得

I think

应该是十五天。

it should be fifteen days.

十五天。

Fifteen.

好的。

Okay.

谢谢你跟我们谈话，Suga先生。

Thanks for talking to us, mister Suga.

好的。

Okay.

再见。

Bye bye.

再见。

Bye.

好吧。

Alright.

亲爱的Sugar，我爱上了一个完美的男人，唯一的问题是他与我在智力上不相匹配。

Dear Sugar, I've fallen in love with a guy who is perfect except that he is not my intellectual equal.

他善良、体贴，具备一个人想要的所有品质。

He's nice, caring, and everything a person would want.

但在内心深处，我并不想嫁给他，我知道我们的关系是有期限的。

But deep in my heart, I don't see myself marrying him, and I know our relationship has an expiration date.

他的家庭是蓝领阶层。

His family is blue collar.

我的家庭富裕且受过良好教育。

Mine is affluent and educated.

他没有野心，甘愿一辈子做同样的工作。

He's not ambitious and is happy to spend the rest of his life in the same job.

我想在世界上留下自己的印记。

I wanna make my mark in the world.

我感到肤浅又矛盾。

I feel shallow and conflicted.

我真的很爱他，和他在一起我很幸福。

I really love him, and I'm happy with him.

当你确实感受到经济与智力上的差距时，是否还能与某人共度充实的人生？

Is it possible to have a fulfilling life with someone when you do feel an economic and intellectual divide?

克服这种差距有多重要？

How important is it to overcome that divide?

署名：试图明智行事的人

Signed, trying to play it smart.

我选择这个问题并非因为你明显比我聪明得多，但我确实选择了这个问题。

Now I did not pick this question because you are clearly so much more intelligent than me, but I did pick this question.

你怎么看，谢丽尔？

What do you think, Cheryl?

我觉得这很有趣。

I think it's interesting.

对此我有许多不同想法，因为这位来信者选择定义她与伴侣之间分歧的方式让我很着迷。

I think a lot of different things about it because it's fascinating to me the the ways that this letter writer chooses to define the things that divide her from her partner.

她说自己很幸福。

She says she's happy.

她说自己爱他。

She says she loves him.

对

Right.

这难道不是很棒吗？

Isn't that fantastic?

是啊

Yeah.

我觉得这还不够吗？

I got Isn't that enough?

他太完美了。

He's perfect.

你知道吗？

You know?

是啊。

Yeah.

所以她似乎与他有足够的共同点，以至于爱上了他。

And so then she seems to have enough in common with him that she's fallen in love with him.

对吧？

Right?

而且他们的关系已经发展到相爱的程度了。

And they've sustained a relationship to the point that they're in love.

然而她却立刻基于这些非常表面的特征，就断定他们不合适，他不是对的人。

And yet she's immediately based on these kind of very, I think, kind of surface markers just decided that they're not compatible, that he's not the one.

所以她正在这么做。

And so she's she's doing this.

这简直就像我们能写一部浪漫喜剧。

It's almost like we could write a romantic comedy.

知道吗？

Know?

比如，我们现在就能写出剧本，十秒钟内卖给好莱坞。

Like, we could just write the screenplay right now and sell it like in ten seconds to Hollywood.

因为你知道故事会如何结局

Because you know how the story is gonna end

在好莱坞。

in Hollywood.

刚刚写好了结局。

Just wrote the ending.

好的。

Okay.

是啊。

Yeah.

她会甩了他。

She's gonna dump him.

没错。

Yep.

然后她会嫁给某个，你知道的，混蛋，就是那种和她臭味相投的人。

Then she's gonna marry some, you know, asshole, you know, who's like like her, you know?

她会过得很惨，但全身穿着普拉达之类的名牌。

And she's gonna be miserable but wearing like Prada, you know, all this stuff.

然后某个下午她会出现在书店里

And she's gonna be like in a bookstore one afternoon.

她会抬头一看，发现他就在那里

And she's gonna look up and there he is.

他没什么野心

He's not ambitious.

他就像这家独立书店里的普通店员

He's just like a clerk in this independent bookstore.

对吧？

Right?

然后她会意识到自己犯下的错误。

And she's gonna realize the mistake that she made.

我不知道。

I don't know.

你知道吗，我觉得在好莱坞，他们会把剧情搞得很俗套，让他莫名其妙就自我提升了。

You know, I think in Hollywood, they would cheese it up and he somehow would have improved himself.

你知道，他可能会去社区大学，准备认真对待职业生涯。

You know, he would be going to community college and ready to take a career seriously.

从根本上说。

Fundamentally.

知道吗，他会看起来像是工人阶级。

Know what it would He would appear to be like working class.

对。

Right.

但实际上，他就像是继承了巨额财富的人。

But actually, he's like the he's like the inherits a great wealth.

就像，他就像是洛克菲勒那样。

Like, he's like a Rockefeller.

你懂吗？

You know?

因为说实话，这个问题很大程度上涉及阶级——而好莱坞再过一百万年也不会触及这个话题。

Because, honestly, a lot of what this question is about and what Hollywood will never deal with in a million years is class.

是啊。

Yeah.

我是说，这关乎尊重和阶级。

I mean, it's about respect and it's about class.

她瞧不起这家伙。

She doesn't respect this guy.

没错。

Yeah.

她是个势利眼。

She's a snob.

她是个势利眼。

She's a snob.

她是个势利眼。

She's a snob.

现在听着。

Now listen.

每个人都是势利眼。

Everybody's a snob.

我是个势利眼。

I'm a snob.

每个人在某些方面都是势利眼

Everybody's a snob in their own

我是势利眼吗？

I'm a snob?

不是。

No.

除了你。

Other than you.

其他所有人都是势利眼，谢丽尔。

Everybody else is a snob, Cheryl.

我我我在某些事情上确实很势利。

I I I was snob about certain things.

好的。

Okay.

没错。

Exactly.

我承认。

I'll admit.

我是说，你说'我永远不会买小型货车'就是一种势利。

I mean, you're a snob in saying I would never buy a minivan.

这倒是真的。

That's true.

这就是你那种势利。

That's your kind of snob.

我们都带着自己的偏见。

We all carry around our bigotries.

但我喜欢很多开小型货车的人。

But I like a lot of people who drive minivans.

当然

Sure.

你只是不想自己拥有它们

You just wouldn't wanna own them on yourself.

没错

That's right.

好吧

Okay.

但事实上，我在这封信中听到的是有人在说：虽然爱这个人，但他配不上我

But the truth is what I hear in this letter is somebody who's saying, well, love this guy, but he's not good enough for me.

他的野心配不上我

He's not ambitious enough for me.

我认为所谓智商都是胡扯

I think intelligence is a crock.

我觉得人的聪明才智体现在各种不同的方面

I think people are intelligent in all kinds of different ways.

比如说，情商。

Like, for instance, emotional intelligence.

你是更愿意和一个门萨会员在一起，还是和一个能在你下班回家时察觉你情绪低落、需要独处或一个拥抱的人在一起？

Would you rather be with somebody who's a MENSA member or somebody who, like, really recognizes when you walk through the door at the end of the day that you're upset and you need some time on your own and maybe a hug.

拜托。

Like, come on.

这根本不用想。

It's a no brainer.

所以在我看来，'聪明'这个词非常难以捉摸。

So the idea of intelligence is it's just a very slippery word to me.

嗯。

Mhmm.

我觉得她可能是。

I think she might be.

我不想对她太苛刻，但我觉得她是想相信自己能爱上这样的人。

I don't wanna be too hard on her, but I think she wants to believe that she could love such a person.

嗯，她确实爱着这样的人。

Well, she does love such a person.

她只是觉得他不适合作为人生伴侣。

She just thinks he's not a good match for a life partner.

这说明她对人生伴侣还有其他考量，不仅仅是爱情。

So which tells us she has other things in mind for a life partner aside from love.

她拥有爱情，这是已经满足的一个条件。

She has love, That's one box to check.

还有诸如进取心、处于相同的社会经济阶层、在物质世界有共同追求这些方面。

And then things like ambition and being in the same socioeconomic class and having the same aspirations in the material world.

所以她有很多条件想要满足。

So she has many boxes that she wants to check.

我觉得很多人都是这样。

I think a lot of people do.

我并不是在谴责这种行为。

I'm not condemning it.

但我确实觉得有趣的是，爱情只是其中一项条件。

But I do think it's interesting that love is only one of those.

因为她明明说自己爱他，和他在一起很开心。

Because she says she loves him and she's happy with him.

她没有任何不满。

She has no complaints.

但我不相信。

But I don't believe it.

我是说，她嘴上说着没有不满，直到她开始抱怨为止。

I mean, she says she has no complaints until she starts complaining.

对吧？

Right?

他的家庭是蓝领阶层。

His family is blue collar.

我家境优渥且受过良好教育。

Mine is affluent and educated.