人工智能正在颠覆音乐界。格莱美奖该如何应对？

但只要我在录音室，AI几乎总是就在那儿。

But when I'm in a room, AI is generally always there.

它被用来创作和弦进行。

It's being used to create chord progressions.

它也被用来填充鼓点循环。

It's being used to fill out drum loops.

有些人干脆直接用AI生成整首曲子。

Some people are just creating entire tracks using AI.

还有人用AI来写歌词。

Others are using AI to come up with lyrics.

比如他们写好了第一节的几句，想让第二节保持相同的押韵和节奏，就直接把第一节输入进去，让AI生成第二节。

Maybe they've written a few lines in the first verse, they want the second verse to have the same rhyme scheme and rhythm and they'll just send in enter the first one and say, make a new one for the second one.

有些人只输入一个标题，AI就能给出一堆创意。

Some people are putting in a title and it's giving out ideas.

还有人纯粹把它当押韵词典用，但眼下AI已经渗透到歌曲创作的方方面面了。

And some of them are just using it as a rhyming dictionary, but AI is across so many different aspects of songwriting right now.

当然了，现在大家用它来制作和声、堆叠音轨，甚至为他们正在写的歌生成歌手的试听样带。

Definitely, people are using it to create background vocals, to make stacks, to create demos of singers that they may be writing a song for.

AI的力量真是让人惊叹。

It's pretty wild, the power of AI.

我对它的感受很复杂，既有正面也有负面的情绪。

And how I feel about it is I have mixed emotions.

我确实很不安，因为我和我身边的所有人，一辈子都在录音棚里、在卧室的笔记本电脑前、对着乐器埋头苦干，就为了做出好作品。

I am definitely disturbed by the fact that I worked my whole entire life and all the people that I work with have been grinding for years in studios and in bedrooms on laptops and with instruments to try and figure out how to make great art.

可现在，有些人没花过一天功夫，也没那份热情，只要打几个字，就能生成一首歌。

And now there's a possibility of people doing that that have not put in the work or don't have that same passion and they can just type in a prompt and create a song.

我经常提到我侄女。

I talk a lot about my niece.

她特别爱用AI创作，经常把歌发给我妻子，说：‘你看看我写的歌。’

She does a lot of AI creating and she sends songs to my wife and says, look at the song I wrote.

她才上六年级呢。

You know, she's in sixth grade.

这确实让我很纠结，但作为制作人和CEO，我也得明白，AI已经来了，必须找到平衡。

And and so it's definitely it's a it's a challenge for me, but I also have to understand both in my role as a producer and my role as a CEO, there's got to be a balance because AI is here.

人们肯定会用它。

People are gonna use it.

外面的竞争已经存在了。

There's gonna there's competition out there.

词曲作者、艺人、制作人，大家都在争夺有限的市场机会。

Songwriters, artists, producers, they're all competing for a certain amount of years.

很多人不在乎自己是怎么达成目标的，他们只想要结果。

And a lot of them, they don't care how they get to those years, they just wanna get to them.

我在努力平衡：既要保护人类的创造力，又要让技术推动音乐创作这门艺术的发展。

So I am struggling with making sure we're preserving human creativity while also allowing technology to evolve the craft and the art form of creating and writing songs.

这对我来说并不容易，因为我本身是个创作者，但同时我也要以CEO的身份，为音乐圈的人服务。

So it's not an easy struggle for me because I am a creator, but I'm also overseeing or trying to help serve music people in the music community in my role as CEO.

你刚才提到了音乐风格。

You mentioned genres.

我们之前做过一个报道。

We did a story a while ago.

我们的好朋友查理·哈丁写过关于人工智能在乡村音乐产业中的应用。

Our great friend Charlie Harding wrote about AI in the country music industry.

乡村音乐产业是一个体系完整的行业。

And the country music industry is an industry.

它的结构比其他类型的音乐更严密。

It's it's more structured than other kinds of music.

非常不一样。

Very different.

有词曲作者，有录音乐手，还有伴奏乐手。

Songwriters, there are session musicians, there are track players.

这就像一台精密的机器。

It's a it's a machine.

他说，人工智能在这里正以非常结构化的方式出现。

And he was like, AI is showing up in structured ways here.

对吧？

Right?

以前人们会为歌手制作小样，但现在词曲作者可以直接说：‘帮我写一首听起来像某某乡村歌手的歌’，然后用他们的声音直接去推销。

And the idea that people are gonna make a demo track for an artist, that's going away because the songwriters can just say, make me a song that sounds like whatever country artist and I'll pitch it to them directly with their voice.

这些歌手都不会承认，但我们从很多词曲作者那里听到了这种情况。

And none of the artists would cop to it but we heard it from all these songwriters.

是的。

Yeah.

我们只是在使用这些歌手的声音。

We're just using the artist's voices.

当然。

Sure.

这里面确实有个趋势，而且正在蔓延到音乐行业的其他领域。

There's a real dynamic there, right, that is spreading to other parts of music industry.

就像你提到的流行音乐，也开始用上这项技术了，只是没那么系统化。

Pop music as you mentioned, it's starting to use it but it's not as structured.

没那么有条理。

It's not as controlled.

你觉得这种趋势是怎么在不同音乐类型中扩散的？

How do you see that diffusion happening across genre?

嗯，我觉得

Well, I'm

说实话，我有点惊讶，这种技术居然渗透到了乡村音乐圈。

a little surprised, to be honest, that it is is permeating the country scene.

我原以为乡村音乐会是最后接受AI或类似技术的领域。

I would think that would be one of the last to accept, you know, AI or any input from it.

我对乡村音乐和它的商业化程度有完全不同的看法。

Oh, I have a very different view of country music and how how commercial.

是的。

Yeah.

嗯，

Well

我觉得这背后有个形象，还有一个产业。

I think there's an image and then I think there's an industry.

一种现实。

A reality.

确实如此。

Yeah.

我确实见过一些人在这个领域使用人工智能。

Well, I've definitely witnessed some people in that space using AI.

你得想清楚怎么用它。

You have to figure out how you're gonna use it.

它是当工具用，还是当替代品用？

Is it gonna be a tool or is it gonna be a replacement?

这在不同行业里会不一样。

And that is gonna change per industry.

我见过有人现在用它来做电影配乐，方式是我以前完全没想到的。

I've seen people who are doing film scores now using it in a way that I never imagined.

你知道吗，他们把单个乐器的旋律输入到生成式音乐平台里，平台就会自动生成完整的编曲。

You know, they're playing individual instrument lines into, you know, the generative pro platform and then that will in turn create a full arrangement.

比如你弹一段钢琴旋律，它就能自动扩展成弦乐、小提琴、中提琴、大提琴和低音提琴，还帮你分好乐谱。

So maybe you're playing a line on a piano and then it turns into strings and violins and violas and cellos and basses and it splits it out on a score.

然后他们直接找乐团来演奏就行，根本不用自己编曲、作曲，连乐谱都不用写。

And then they'll just hire the orchestras to play it, but they will not have to do any of the arranging or the composing or even making charts.

所有这些工作，系统都帮你完成了。

It's doing all that for you.

所以你会看到AI在不同音乐创作形式里的各种用法——就像你说的，现在在乡村音乐、流行音乐和影视配乐里，已经能看到明显区别了。

So you're gonna see it used different ways and different forms of music making, which, you know, you're already seeing, as you said, in country versus pop versus composing.

我给你念几组数据，我觉得特别有意思。

I'm read you some stats that I think are just fascinating.

《好莱坞报道》最近做了一项关于AI与音乐的大规模调查。

The Hollywood Reporter just did a big AI and music poll.

这是去年秋天的调查结果，但和我们最近看到的其他数据趋势完全吻合。

This is from last fall, it tracks with the polling that we've seen more recently.

大多数人，52%，并不想听由AI协助制作的音乐。

Most people, 52%, do not want to listen to music made with the help of AI.

66%的人表示，他们从未意识到自己听过的音乐是AI制作的。

66% of people said they've never listened to music knowing it was made by AI.

我不知道现在还能不能做到这一点，但他们就是这么说的。

I don't know if that you can do that anymore, but that's what they said.

还有很多数据表明，人们对AI普遍持反感态度。

And then there's a lot of data that just says people dislike AI generally.

但你得看看这些调查的对象是谁，是谁在填这些问卷，是谁在订阅他们的杂志或浏览他们的网站。

But you have to look at the who they're asking and who are the people that are filling out those surveys and who are the people that subscribe to their magazine or will look at their website.

随着年龄越来越小的人群，我猜这些数字可能会不一样。

As you get into younger people, I would imagine those numbers might change.

至于年轻人，我们在这档节目里，还有《The Verge》上，已经多次引用过这些调查数据。

So younger people, this is polling that we have cited a lot on this show and across The Verge.

年轻人越是使用AI，反而越不喜欢它。

Younger people, the more they use AI, the more they dislike it.

对。

Mhmm.

千禧一代对人工智能有一种强烈的反感。

So Gen z has this, like, ferocious dislike for AI.

我提这个并不是要跟你争论调查数据。

I bring this up not to litigate the poll numbers with you.

我只是好奇，人工智能被广泛使用，而大多数艺术家都知道，他们的粉丝不希望他们公开说自己在用AI。

I'm just curious about the the sort of widespread use of AI and the knowledge that most artists have that their fans don't want them to say they're using AI.

米歇尔·刘易斯对《滚石》杂志说，音乐行业对AI音乐实行一种‘不问不说’的潜规则。

So Michelle Lewis told Rolling Stone that music industry has a quote, don't ask, don't tell policy about AI music.

Suno的首席执行官，是其中一个主要的生成式AI平台。

Suno, CEO, it's one of the big generative AI platforms.

也许是主导性的那个。

Maybe the dominant one.

米基·舒尔曼说，Suno就像是音乐行业的司美格鲁肽。

Mikey Schulman said Suno is the Ozempic of the music industry.

人人都在用。

Everybody's on it.

但没人愿意提这事儿。

Nobody wants to talk about it.

这就是问题所在。

That's the gap.

对吧？

Right?

大家都在用这些工具。

Everyone's using the tools.

大家都明白这些工具有多强大。

Everyone sees the power of the tools.

但我们没法直接告诉粉丝，我们是用AI来制作音乐的。

But we cannot tell our fans straight out that we're using AI to make the music.

你觉得这个差距是在缩小，还是在扩大？

Do you see that gap closing or do you see it widening?

我不确定。

I don't know.

我不知道这个差距是会缩小还是会扩大。

I don't know if it's gonna close or widen.

对我们学院来说，处境挺棘手的，因为我们得表彰音乐领域的卓越成就。

For us at the Academy, we are in a challenging position because we have to award excellence in music.

每年我们都要决定，AI在音乐创作中达到什么程度才算可以接受。

And we are now every year deciding what is gonna be the threshold of acceptability for AI.

所以这个决定很可能会影响差距的走向，因为我们提交作品时都会问：你有没有使用AI？

And so that's gonna probably have an effect on how the gap widens or closes because we ask when you submit, did you use AI?

但承认使用AI，就像用司美格鲁肽一样。

But acknowledging it's like Ozempic.

有些人会说他们用了，有些人则不会说。

Some people are gonna tell you they're on it, some people are not.

所以我们现在只能靠信任他们的说法，直到我们能找到或推出相应的技术——我知道这种技术应该已经存在了，能准确判断AI是否被使用以及使用了多少。

So it's a little bit of taking people's word for it until we can find the technology or deploy the technology, which I know is supposedly out there, that can determine when AI is being used, how much it's being used.

我们只能靠大家主动告知是否使用了AI，别无他法。

We are a little bit at the mercy of people telling us and disclosing when they're using it.

所以得看看大家的态度会怎么变化，随着越来越熟悉，情况也会不同。

So we'll see what the perception is and as people become more comfortable.

回顾人类历史，我们总是在使用新科技的过程中逐渐适应它，一旦它融入社会，大家接受起来其实很快。

You know, in the history of humanity, I think we've had a pattern of becoming much more comfortable with new technology as we've used it and it's been a part of our society and it doesn't usually take us very long.

我记得以前有人跟我说，我绝不会把信用卡信息放到网上。

I remember people that I was with saying, I'm never putting my credit card on the Internet.

这简直太荒谬了。

That's ridiculous.

甚至在音乐圈里，我也遇到过一些人，他们说绝不会用Pro Tools、Auto Tune、Melodyne这些工具——可这些技术明明帮我们提升了创作效率和表现力。

Or I've even met people in the music space who said they'd never use Pro Tools or Auto Tune or Melodyne or some of the other things that have developed and allowed us to be more creative and more efficient with our creativity.

所以咱们再看看接下来会发生什么吧。

So we'll see what happens again.

十八个月后咱们再聊一次，看看那时候大家的想法有没有变化。

In eighteen months, we should talk again and we'll see how people are feeling.

你有没有注意到最近社交媒体上关于杰伊·兹提出的‘自动调音已死’这个说法的讨论？

You see the the the recent sort of social media discourse about whether death of auto tune had held up as an idea from Jay Z.

现在这东西到处都是。

It's like, now it's everywhere.

它根本没死。

It didn't actually die.

它已经全面占领了整个行业。

It took over everything.

它已经全面占领了整个行业。

It took over everything.

对啊。

Yeah.

我还没关注过这个，不过想想还挺有意思的。

I haven't seen that, but it's a a funny subject to think about.

有大牌艺人直接说，要么适应，要么被淘汰——比如迪波洛就是这样。

I got big artists saying basically adapt or die, Diplo.

我可以用AI做出最棒的嗓音。

I can get the best voice from AI.

我不再需要任何人来唱这首歌了。

I don't need anybody to sing the song anymore.

人家明摆着说，要么适应，要么去开网约车。

Literally, said adapt or become an Uber driver.

Timberland现在直接在做纯AI歌手。

Timberland is doing straight AI artists.

他出了一整张专辑，都是给他的AI歌手用的。

He's got an entire record labeled for his AI artists.

50 Cent特别爱发一些网友做的、用灵魂乐风格翻唱他歌曲的梗图。

Fifty Cent just loves posting memes of, like, soul covers of fifty Cent songs.

Grimes确实存在。

Grimes exists.

Taryn Southern也在外面活跃着。

Taryn Southern is out there.

我觉得反而是大牌艺人会更快接受AI，因为他们本来就有名气。

What's your take on it's the bigger artists who are gonna adopt AI faster because they have the name recognition.

他们发AI做的音乐，大家还是会听，因为那是五十美分、格莱美奖得主，或者别的大腕。

They can put out AI music and people will listen to it because it is fifty Cent or Grammys or whoever.

年轻艺人却很难吸引注意，因为社交媒体上全是垃圾内容，挤得水泄不通。

And the younger artists are struggling for attention because they're swamped on social channels full of slot.

有些大艺人会接受，但也有人会拒绝。

Some big artists will adopt, others are gonna reject.

对。

Yeah.

我觉得这跟音乐创作领域的其他层级情况很像。

And I think it's very similar to the other tiers of music creators.

一些新晋艺人会觉得这是个优势，他们想用AI，因为能更快产出，作品数量也能上去。

Some young new artists are gonna see it as an advantage and they're gonna wanna use AI because they can create faster, they can create more things.

但也有人根本反感用这种技术来创作音乐。

And some are gonna, you know, rebuff the whole idea of using technology like that to create.

我觉得不可能有一种放之四海而皆准的做法。

And I don't think you're gonna find any one size fits all.

这反而是我觉得最有趣、也最能让人接受的地方。

And that's what's gonna be cool or I think somewhat acceptable about it.

我始终会为人类发声，我认为，如何作为社会、作为人类、彼此互动并表达我们的共同体验，依然是艺术中非常关键的部分。

I am always gonna advocate for humans and I think that's still gonna be an important part of the art form is how do we express ourselves as as a society, as humans, as interacting with each other and talking about that human experience.

这才是我们真正交流的方式。

That's how we that's how we communicate.

这才是我们彼此感受的方式。

That's how we feel each other.

这才是我们凝聚在一起的方式。

That's how we come together.

所以我觉得这一点永远都会很重要。

So I think that's always gonna be important.

另一件重要的事是，人类还是会创造出最酷、最新颖的东西。

The other thing that's gonna be important is humans are gonna create the coolest, newest stuff.

我不觉得十八个月后我们还能再聊这个。

I don't AI, I don't think eighteen months we can talk again.

我不认为AI会抢在我们前面，创造出什么全新的声音、新的流派，那种新鲜又让人激动、能打动听众的东西。

I don't think AI is gonna go out ahead of us and beat us at coming up with a new sound, a new genre, something that's, fresh and and exciting and that lands and that resonates with listeners.

它们也许有一天真能搞明白怎么做到这一点。

They will at some point maybe figure out how to do that.

但眼下它们只会把我们做的那些酷东西全拿去模仿，稍作调整，拼拼凑凑，最后推出一首新歌、一个新的声音，或者新的唱法。

But what they're gonna do now is they're gonna listen to all the cool stuff that we make and then they're gonna iterate on that and they're gonna probably add a little twist here and they're gonna mash some stuff together and come out with a new song or a new voice or a new singing.

但作为真实活着、有体验的人类创作者，推动艺术向前发展的，终究还是我们。

But as humans and as creators who are living life and experiencing things, we are gonna be the ones that push the art form forward.

我真心觉得，就是这个月的事。

I truly believe that this month.

咱们走着瞧吧。

We'll see.

所以到时候，两种都会存在。

So you'll you'll have both.

有人会用AI生成大量音乐，也有人会说，我想用自己的方式来创作。

You'll have people using AI and just creating a whole bunch of music, you'll have other people say, I I wanna do it my way.

我想通过我的经历、我的痛苦、我的人际互动来创作，那样才更有意思。

I wanna create through my experience and through my pain and through my my interactions, and that'll be cool.

你之前提到怎么才能拿格莱美奖，得证明作品是人类创作的。

So you were talking earlier about how to win a Grammy, you gotta certify that you made it with human.

你只想把奖项颁给音乐中真正由人类创作的部分。

You only wanna give the award to the human part of the music.

但这一点正变得越来越模糊。

That's obviously getting fuzzier.

你刚才就是在说这件事越来越难界定。

You're describing it getting fuzzier.

如果迪波洛提交一首歌，说所有和声都是AI做的。

If Diplo submits a track and he's like, all the backing vocals are AI.

那也没关系。

It's okay.

这没问题。

That's okay.

使用AI并不会让你失去资格。

AI doesn't make you ineligible.

它不会把你排除在评选流程之外。

It doesn't exclude you from the process.

我们只需要确保人类的创造力处于核心位置，并且确实存在人类的创作。

We just have to make sure that the human creativity is at the forefront and there is human creativity.

如果有人提交的歌曲用了AI生成的和声，那他们不会获得格莱美奖，甚至可能连表演类奖项的参选资格都没有，因为表演的是AI。

So if somebody submits songs with AI background vocals, they're not gonna get a Grammy or they won't even be eligible for a Grammy for performance because AI is doing the performing.

但你仍然可以提交参选作词、作曲或其他类别。

But you can still submit for songwriting or some of the other categories.

反过来，如果歌曲是AI写的，但由人类演唱，而且唱得特别出色，这位歌手依然有资格角逐表演类奖项。

And conversely, AI has written the song but you have a human singing it and they sang the heck out of it, that person can be submitted for performance award.

我们承认这一点，也正因如此，界限才如此微妙。

And we acknowledge and this is why it's a fine line.

我们现在正走钢丝呢。

It's we're walking the tightrope right now.

我们得确保尊重人类的创造力。

We wanna make sure we're honoring human creativity.

我们也要认可卓越的表现。

We wanna honor excellence.

我们必须承认AI已经被广泛应用，迟早得做个决定：是彻底禁止使用AI，只要用了就取消格莱美参选资格，还是……

We have to acknowledge that AI is being used and at some point, we'll have to decide, do we wanna completely ban AI from the process and say, if you used AI at all, you are excluded from the Grammy process.

把AI看作音乐创作的下一代工具，人们用它的方式各不相同。

Or we're gonna say, AI is the next version of a tool for music making and people are using it in different ways.

有些用法特别有意思，也很有创意。

Some of them really interesting and creative.

但也有些用得太过分，让人觉得不合适。

Some of them seem egregious and and too much.

我们得找到那个平衡点，这正是我们每年都在做的事。

And we're gonna have to find that sweet spot and that's what we're doing every single year.

我们会定期审查这项政策。

We review this policy.

我们会仔细审视，确保所做的决定符合董事会、会员以及创作群体的期望——因为我们始终倾听创作者的声音。

We look at it and make sure that we're doing the thing that our board of trustees and our members and our our creative community want because, we listen to our creative community.

这就是我对未来的看法：不断在这条线上找到平衡，我相信它会随着时间慢慢演变。

So that's where I see the future is is navigating that and I think it's going to evolve over time.

现在的界限在哪里？

Where's the line right now?

是看用了多少AI成分吗？

Is it how much it?

目前我们的标准是，作品中必须包含显著的人类创作成分。

It's right now we call it a more than de minimis amount of human creativity involved in the process.

只要能证明确实有人类深度参与，而不仅仅是敷衍了事，我们就认可它是符合规定的。

So as long as you can show that a human was involved and it wasn't just a tiny amount, then we will say it's acceptable.

但一旦超过这个界限，人类的参与变得微不足道，我们就必须退回来。

But as soon as it gets beyond that point of no or not enough human inner inner action, then we have to pull back.

这系统并不完美。

And it's not a perfect system.

说实话，要建立这样的系统真的很难，因为我们根本没法准确量化人类创意或人类参与的程度。

I mean, this is a very very tough system to create because again, we don't know exactly the percentage of of human creativity or human inner interaction.

以现在的技术，我们还做不到这一点。

We don't have the ability to determine that today.

希望将来我们能实现。

I hope that we do in the future.

我们承认这系统远非完美，而且音乐，你知道的，本来就是主观的。

We acknowledge that it is not the most perfect system and music by the way is subjective as you know.

所以我们是在评估，试图奖励一些对每个人意义都不同的东西。

So we're evaluating and trying to award something that means something different to everybody.

我们只是想尽量做对。

So, we just wanna try and get it right.

我们希望表彰音乐，表彰音乐人，以及音乐的各种形式。

We want to try and celebrate music and and music people and all the different forms of it.

目前，我们承认人工智能是一种正在被使用的工具。

And we, at this point, are acknowledging that AI is a tool that is that is being used.

我们迟早也得谈谈立法问题，因为我们需要一些规范和约束。

We also at some point, should talk about the legislation because we need guardrails.

我们需要有人来明确规则，同时我们也得确保这些规则得到执行。

We need people telling us and us enforcing the rules around how AI can be used.

我知道你一直主张某种具体的法律方案。

I know you've you've been advocating for a specific litigation.

我确实想聊聊这个话题。

I do wanna come to that.

不过我想先再就这一点多说几句。

I just wanna stay on this aspect of it for one second.

你说要拿格莱美奖，就得证明人类的参与度远超最低限度。

You're saying to win a Grammy award, you need to show us somehow that there's more than a de minimis amount of human involvement.

我不能光靠给Suno发个指令，就做出一首热门歌曲。

I can't just prompt Suno to make a hit record.

生成一段像哈维为珍妮特·杰克逊做的那种声音，这其实是个特别棒的Suno提示词。

Make a sound like Harvey would make for Janet Jackson, which actually sounds like a great Suno prompt.

我一出去就试试看。

I'm gonna do that when I when I get out of here.

明白了。

Okay.

这还不够。

That's not enough.

那你怎么证明呢？

How do you prove it?

得提交什么材料？

What do have to submit paperwork?

要提供截图吗？

Do you have to submit screenshots?

到底该怎么证明呢？

Like, what's the proof?

我们有专门的审核小组，负责审查和评估每个人的申请。

Well, we have screening committees that that review and evaluate people's claims.

最终，还是要靠人来做分析、提问题、要求证据和文件。

And at some point, it does come down to people's opinions and people doing the analysis and asking questions, asking for proof, asking for documentation.

我们不可能每次都拿到这些材料。

We're not always gonna get that.

但我们会尽力去做。

We're gonna try.

正如我所说，这并不是一门精确的科学。

And as I said, it's not a perfect science.

没有一个非黑即白的明确标准，能百分百证明你确实做了你所说的事。

We don't have a black and white determining, you know, box that you can check that's exactly proved that you've done what you've said you've done.

但我相信，我们的社群是一群有操守的人。

But I know that our community is an honorable community.

搞音乐的人，作为创作者，都是很特别的。

People who make music are, you know, creators are are different people.

我不觉得有人会想靠无法证实的借口去骗一座格莱美奖。

I I don't think anybody wants to cheat and win a Grammy on on grounds that they that they they can't prove.

我真不愿意相信会有人这么做。

And I would hate to think that somebody would wanna do that.

也许真有这种事，但希望我们能在他们得逞之前发现并阻止。

Maybe it happens and hopefully we'll find we'll catch them before it does.

但这套系统本来就不是完美的。

But it's just not the perfect system.

要准确判断谁做了什么，真的很难。在我们有技术能彻底拆解这些问题之前，只能靠整个行业主动坦诚相待。

It's gonna be challenging to determine exactly who did what and until we can get the technology that breaks it down for us, we're gonna have to rely on our community to be forthcoming.

我们刚才聊了这么多关于艺术创作、灵感和氛围的事，现在突然抛出一堆数据，我都有点不好意思了。

I feel like we're having this like deep conversation about the artistic process and creativity and vibes I'm and just hitting you with stat after stat.

Deezer说，每天有五万首由AI生成的歌曲被上传到他们的平台。

Deezer says 50,000 AI generated songs are being uploaded to their platform every day.

你描述的是一群人一起审阅格莱美所有投稿、核查证据、走流程的过程——面对这么多AI作品涌进来，你们不会被压垮吗？

You're describing a process where a bunch of people get together and they look at all the submissions for the Grammys and they whatever evidence and they do some process, are you gonna get overwhelmed with the amount of AI material that's coming your way?

咱们走着瞧吧。

We'll see.

到目前为止，还没出现过。

So far, we haven't.

去年我们收到了大约两万四千份投稿。

We had about 24,000 submissions last year.

今年比前年稍微多了一点，具体会怎样，还得看看。

Now it's up a little bit from the year before, we'll see what happens this year.

如果真开始大量出现，我们就得调整了。

And if that starts to happen, then we'll have to make changes.

我们这个组织最棒的一点，就是过去五六年来，反应特别快，说改就改。

The cool thing about our organization, at least over the last five or six years, is we've really been quick to change.

我们一直在关注事态发展。

We're watching what's happening.

我们也一直在听。

We're listening.

我们一直在听音乐团队的意见，也在思考怎样才能把这件事做对。

We're hearing from our music people, and we're saying how can we make sure we're doing this the right way.

如果我们开始应接不暇，AI成了真正的问题，搞不清状况，被大量内容淹没，或者整体质量被AI稀释了，那我们就得调整了。

So if we start to get overwhelmed and AI becomes, you know, an issue for us and we can't determine what's happening and we're getting, you know, inundated or the whole thing is getting diluted by AI, then we're gonna make some changes.

不过现在看来，我们的状态还不错。

But right now, I think we're in a pretty good spot.

行业内其他地方也在尝试类似的做法。

There are other parts of the industry that are attempting to do the same things.

比如Spotify，就想调整版税结构，来应对AI音乐的问题。

Spotify, for example, wants to change its royalty structures to account for AI music.

他们现在搞了一个由真人认证的厂牌。

They have a label now that like a human certified label.

这和你们的想法一致吗？

Does that align with your thinking?

整个行业有没有可能采取一种更全面的应对方式？

Is there a a more holistic approach across the industry that will help with this?

那再好不过了。

That would be great.

我知道我们很多人私下都在讨论，该怎么统一标准，怎么建立起清晰的区分机制。

And I know a lot of us are talking amongst ourselves about how can we align and how can we build some of those those processes and lanes for separation.

我也觉得这些做法会随着时间慢慢演变。

And I also think that's gonna evolve over time.

当我们开始深入聊的时候，这其实是个很深刻、带有哲学意味的话题。

And as we start talking, it is a it is a deep conversation, philosophical thought.

某一天，我们是不是得搞清楚，哪些是完全由AI生成的，哪些是部分生成的，哪些是纯人工的？

At some point, is it as important to determine what is synthetic or AI generated and what is 50% generated, what is 0% generated?

总有一天，听众会厌倦这些区分，直接说：我就想听好听的音乐。

And at some point, the consumers start to wear down and tire a little bit of that and just say, I just wanna hear great music.

现在我其实不太在意用了什么工具，关键是我们得在背后保护好人类的创作。

I'm not sure that I care about the tools so much right now, and then it leaves it to us on the back end to make sure we're protecting human creativity.

也许十八个月后，我们的想法会不一样。

I'm not sure eighteen months from now, maybe we will.

我们可能会更在意，但也许会越来越不在意，就像鼓机一样。

We'll be more concerned about it, but maybe we'll be less and it'll be like drum machines.

你会说，哦，这段录音用了AI，但我真会在意吗？

And you'll say, you know, some AI was used in this recording, but do I care?

作为格莱美奖的CEO，我关心，因为我代表的是人类音乐创作者。

And I care as the CEO of the Grammys and I care representing human music people.

而且我们还得在背后持续努力，推动和捍卫人类的创造力。

And again, we're gonna have to in the background continue to fight and push and advocate for human creativity.

但消费者现在根本不关心人声有没有加自动调音。

But consumers aren't worried right now if a vocal has auto tune on it.

他们听着喜欢的抒情歌，根本不会去想里面的弦乐是不是真乐器。

They're not thinking about if the strings are real strings in the ballad that they just listen to and that they love.

所以我不确定有没有标准答案，但我们会看到，随着时间推移，消费者对不同创作形式和工具的接受度会怎么变化。

So I'm not sure I have the answer, but we're gonna see how it changes over time and how consumers' appetite for different forms of creativity and different tools being used in that process play out.

以前确实有人特别在意自动调音这回事。

I mean, there was a time when people really cared about Auto Tune.

对吧？

Right?

以前制作人还会故意撒谎，说自己没用Auto Tune。

Like, shares, producers lied about using Auto Tune on belief.

对吧？

Right?

那时候他们真会瞒着，就怕别人知道他们用了什么手法。

Like, that used to be a thing that they would literally lie about because they didn't want anyone to know how they'd done it or or it caught to it.

你现在是说，随着AI的普及，这种隐瞒也会像当年那样慢慢消失吗？

And you're saying that's gonna fade away with AI the same way it's faded away with

我不确定真会这样。

I'm not certain it's going to.

我的意思是，这有可能发生。

I'm gonna say that's an option that it could.

人们渐渐习惯了，他们只在乎音乐好不好听。

People become normalized to it and they just wanna hear great music.

他们更不在乎这些工具本身。

They're not concerned about the tools as much.

但话说回来，我还是要强调，我相信人类和人类的创造力始终重要，始终最被看重，也始终是推动艺术前进的核心。

But in saying that, I have to again reiterate that my belief is that humans and human creativity is always gonna be important, is always gonna be the most desirable, and always be the thing that pushes the art form forward.

我喜欢你这种乐观的态度。

I like your optimism.

但我得反驳一下，鼓机大部分根本不是防务公司做的。

I but my pushback here is drum machines for the most part were not made by defense contractors.

对。

Mhmm.

比如，雅马哈可能跟防务有点关系，但总的来说，乐器公司、采样器公司，像普瑞能，根本没在造军用制导系统。而Anthropic、OpenAI、谷歌这些大模型公司，全都是防务承包商。

Like, may maybe Yamaha had some sort of defense contractor, but, like, for the most part, the instrument companies, the sampler companies, Pioneer was not making military targeting systems, Anthropic, OpenAI, Google, all the big model companies are defense contractors.

他们每天都深陷政府高层的争议之中。

Like, they're caught up in, like, government, like, top of the government controversies every single day.

他们一直在向政府索要数十亿，甚至上万亿美元的资金。

They're asking everyone for billions, if not trillions of dollars.

我们打算把数据中心搬到太空去。

We're gonna put the data centers in space.

但从我的角度看，艺术家、创作者和作家们其实心里清楚这不对劲，但他们却说：等等再说。

And at least from my perspective, it seems like the interests of artists and creatives, authors are they know it's bad, but they're like, hold on.

我们得行动了，因为战争已经来了。

We gotta do we have war.

我们即将和AI模型打一场仗。

We we're gonna do war with the the AI models.

我们还会为网络安全问题争个不停。

We're gonna argue about cybersecurity.

搞不好，整个世界都会被拖垮。

Maybe we're gonna crash the whole world.

他们有回应你吗？

Have they been responsive to you?

你上次做节目时，有人问你有没有见过萨姆·阿尔特曼。

The last time you're on the show, asked if you met with Sam Altman.

我是希望如此。

You're like, I'm hoping to.

你之后有见过他吗？

Have you met with him since?

我并没有直接见过他，但跟他的团队以及来自OpenAI和Claude的人沟通过。

I haven't met with him directly, but I have met with his team and people from Open and from Claude.

我们一直在频繁交流，其他平台比如Suno、Yudio这些也都在联系。

And we're doing a lot of talking and definitely the other platforms, Suno and Yudio and others.

所以对话还在持续进行中。

So the dialogues are ongoing.

从我的角度看，或者说，也许我太乐观了，我自己也知道可能真是这样。

And from my perspective, or at least maybe I'm overly optimistic, I know I probably am.

你今天刚跟我说过我就是这样。

You already told me I am today.

我很感谢。

I appreciate it.

但我认为每个人都希望把这件事做对。

But I I think everybody wants to do this the right way.

也许他们是在骗我。

And maybe they're tricking me.

但据我所见，他们明白音乐和创意的重要性，没人真想彻底抛弃这些。

But from what I can tell, they realize the importance of music and creativity and nobody wants to append that completely.

至少我接触过的那些音乐公司负责人，他们自己就是乐迷，热爱音乐和创意，想为这个生态添砖加瓦。

At least the music people that I talked to that are running those companies, they're fans and they love music and they love creativity and they want to add to that ecosystem.

所以咱们走着瞧吧。

So we'll see where it goes.

我挺乐观的，但我的乐观更多是因为我了解我们的社群，了解音乐人。

I am optimistic, but I think my optimism comes more from the fact that I know our community and I know music people.

我知道我们是怎么想的。

I know how we think.

我也清楚音乐人有多 competitive，有多出色。

I also know how competitive and talented that our music people are.

我始终相信，我们会坚持下去，善用这些工具，找到全新的方式去创造更棒的东西。

And I am just always sure that we'll persevere and we'll use the tools, we'll figure out cool new ways to do great new things with them.

我们会不断改进之前的做法，摸索出全新的音乐创作和自我表达方式。

And we'll iterate on what we've done before and we'll come up with a new new way of making music and and expressing ourselves.

所以我的乐观主要来自这里，而不是觉得所有平台都会乖乖听我们的，因为我知道这不可能；也不是指望今年能出台完美的法律，因为我知道这大概率也实现不了。

So that's really where my optimism comes, less so from thinking that all the platforms are gonna get in line and do exactly what we want because we know that's not gonna happen or less so that we're gonna have the perfect legislation that's gonna be drafted and passed and approved this year because I know that's probably not gonna happen.

但确实。

But Yeah.

我相信我们的人。

I believe in our people.

你接触了这么多公司，哪些看起来最尊重艺术家？

As you talk to all these companies, which of them seem the most artist friendly?

哪些又显得最疏远？

Which of them seem the most distant?

现在的整体情况怎么样？

How's the dynamic?

当我身在其中时，他们都对艺术家很友好。

When I'm in the room, they're all artist friendly.

你知道的，他们都挺友善的，也都很喜欢创作者。

You know, they're all very nice and they all love creators.

我 just 在想 OpenAI 推出 Sora，就这么直接推向市场。

I I'm just thinking about OpenAI doing Sora and just like launching it in the world.

说他们抄得一干二净，或者我是不是总挑 OpenAI 的毛病，拿 Studio Ghibli 说事。

Mean, stole everything or I just keep picking on OpenAI doing Studio Ghibli.

对吧？

Right?

或者说，我们语音合成器里的声音听起来像斯嘉丽·约翰逊，结果差点惹上官司。

Or saying this voice from our voice synthesizer sounds suspicious to like Scarlett Johansson until there's a lawsuit.

有的公司明显更激进，有的则显得稳重得多。

Like, some of them seem much more poised to be aggressive and some of them seem a little calmer.

有些公司根本不太在意这些事，对艺术家群体的态度也显得有点轻率。

Some of them are more they're just not as concerned about it and they're not focused on a little more frivolous with how they're treating the artist community.

但我可能理解错了。

But I don't maybe I'm misinterpreting it.

他们似乎并不是故意要针对谁，或者存心伤害人。

It doesn't seem like they're doing it to be spiteful, to be harmful.

他们其实都在同时摸索着前进。

They're they're all trying to figure this all out at the same time.

我听说有些人说，他们只想快速推进，哪怕打破一些东西。

And I have heard some people say they just wanna move fast and break things.

这种话你肯定比我听得更多——他们宁愿事后道歉，也不愿事先请示。

You know, you've heard that probably more than I have and and they're gonna ask for forgiveness rather than permission.

从创作者的角度来看，这些说法确实让人不安。

And those are things that are scary from a creative community perspective.

那些写歌、拥有版权和知识产权的人，谁也不想听到这种话。

You know, people that have written songs and hold copyrights and intellectual property, we never wanna hear that.

我们总想着，先做了再说，道歉以后再补。

You know, we're we'll ask for forgiveness later.

我们会用你创造的东西、你拥有的东西、你合法拥有的权利，来为我们自己谋利。

We're gonna use what you've created and what you own and what you legally have possession of and we're gonna use that for our own benefit.

这会树立一个危险的先例，我相信我们这些搞创作的人没人会支持这种做法。

That's a that's a dangerous precedent and one that I don't think anyone of us on the creative side would support.

但你确实已经看到一些这样的情况了，这些问题必须得解决。

But you are you are seeing some of that, so that needs to be worked out.

我们得休息一小会儿。

We need to take another short break.

一分钟之后就回来。

We'll be back in a minute.

本节目由EVEN Realities赞助。

Support for the show comes from EVEN Realities.

想想你上次走进一场重要会议时，是不是特别希望自己的发言要点能一直记着，不会忘词或跑题。

Think about the last time you walked into a big meeting and wished your talking points could just stay with you without losing your place or your train of thought.

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EVEN Realities built exactly that.

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And unlike most smart glasses, they're designed to look and feel like premium eyewear.

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With no camera and a lightweight 36 gram design, you can wear all day.

你提供的信息越多，它就越懂你，能自动适应你的工作习惯和需求。

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我是塞思·马特林斯。

I'm Seth Matlins.

我的新节目《创造者与毁灭者：重塑营销》探讨了企业所做的每一个决策——不只是营销决策，还包括人力资源、投资者关系、定价、组织架构和规划等决策——这些大多数人根本不会当成营销的举动，实际上都在塑造价值或摧毁价值。

My new show, creator destroy reimagining marketing explores how every decision a company makes, not just the marketing ones, but the HR, IR, pricing, org design, and planning ones, the ones most don't consider marketing at all, contribute to either creating value or destroying it.

每周，我都会与首席营销官、首席执行官、创始人以及文化思考者对话，他们正在构建、打破或重新定义企业如何成长或停滞，我们一起讨论什么创造价值，什么摧毁价值。

Each week, I sit down with CMOs, CEOs, founders, cultural thinkers, the people building, breaking, reimagining how businesses grow or don't for conversations about what creates value and what destroys it.

这是一档商业节目。

It's a business show.

这也是一档营销节目。

It's a marketing show.

《创造者与毁灭者》——一档主张营销与企业决策本质相同的节目。

Creator destroys the show that argues.

节目由Vox Media播客网络和The Wisdomist公司联合出品。

They've always been the same thing from the Vox Media Podcast Network and The Wisdomist Company.

新集数每周在YouTube和你常用的播客平台上线。

New episodes drop weekly on YouTube and your favorite podcast app.

经过将近二十年，一件原本不可能的事终于发生了。

After the better part of two decades, something impossible just happened.

Siri 变得靠谱了。

Siri became good.

在苹果的 WWDC 开发者大会上，苹果再次展示了它对人工智能和未来的宏大构想，而主角是一款全新的语音助手——据各方面反馈，这次它真的把事情办成了。

At Apple's WWDC Developer Conference, Apple once again presented its grand plans for AI and the future of everything, and the star is a brand new voice assistant that by all accounts actually appears to have done the job this time.

本周的《The Vergecast》节目，我们聊了聊 WWDC 的所有动态，包括今年秋天将登陆苹果设备的各类新功能，以及 Siri 终于能正常工作意味着什么。

This week on the Vergecast, we're talking about all of the news from WWDC, including all of the stuff coming to Apple devices this fall, and what it means that Siri actually works now.

《The Vergecast》在你常用的播客平台都能收听。

That's The Vergecast wherever you get podcasts.

我们再次邀请到录音学院首席执行官哈维·梅森 Jr.，聊聊人工智能与音乐产业的碰撞。

We're back with Recording Academy CEO Harvey Mason Jr, talking about the collision AI in the music industry.

这里有个挺有意思的现象。

There's an interesting split here.

你提到过一项法案，叫《反伪造法案》，它保护的是声音、形象和肖像权。

There's legislation that you've brought up, the no fakes act, which protects voice image and likeness.

还有《列车法案》，它能让创作者查到模型训练所用的数据，从而要求获得版税。

There's the train act, which would give creators access to the records of what was trained on, so you could demand royalties.

《清晰法案》只是一个透明度法案。

There's a clear act, is just a transparency act.

就告诉我们模型里到底装了什么。

Just tell us what's in the models.

我真希望这些法案都能通过。

I would love all those to exist.

就像你说的，我不确定今年国会会不会迅速采取行动应对人工智能问题。

Like you said, I I don't know if this year is the year for a congress to act with alacrity on AI.

我刚从华盛顿回来，感觉今年他们内斗太厉害，不太可能有什么进展。

I just got back from DC and it doesn't seem like this is the year they're having so much infighting.

但让我惊讶的是，大家在这些问题上其实达成了不少共识。

But there is a lot of alignment around these which surprised me.

尤其是《反伪造法案》，在两党、两院都获得了广泛支持。

It's bipartisan, bicameral support for especially the no fakes.

大家都觉得这事儿该做，关键是怎么把它落实下去？

Everybody knows that's the right thing to do and how can we get it done?

咱们先把措辞定好。

Let's get the language right.

别非得追求完美。

Let's not try and make it perfect.

先立个法把框架搭起来，以后再慢慢完善。

Let's get something on the books right now and then we can refine it.

这至少是我的想法。

That's at least my thought.

你真觉得，偏偏是唐纳德·特朗普这样的人，会明白用他的声音有多大的分量，他该有所作为？

You think Donald Trump of all people would understand that the use of his voice is a powerful thing that he should.

可看样子，这事儿根本没人当回事。

But it doesn't seem like it it matters.

对吧？

Right?

我的想法特别悲观：版权法本质上是大公司做交易的框架，对其他人来说，就是谁都能随便用。

Like, there's I have a like, my most nihilistic version of this is copyright law exists as a framework for big corporations to make deals, and for everyone else, it's just a free for all.

我们就是会随便拿东西 remix，马克·库班和泰勒·斯威夫特只能靠加密货币广告赚钱，反正也拦不住，也许以后会有法律，但那得等多久谁知道。

We're just gonna take stuff and remix it, and Mark Cuban and Taylor Swift are gonna need crypto ads and that's just the end of the you know, like, there's there's no holding back and maybe there will be some laws on whatever timeline there are laws.

meanwhile，平台只能自己动手，因为版权法本来就是它们做交易的依据，总得做点什么。

And in the meantime, you're gonna get the platforms deciding that because copyright law is the structure by which they make deals, they gotta do something.

所以 YouTube 现在有了形象识别功能。

So YouTube has likeness detection now.

对。

Mhmm.

这其实就是个私人制定的法律体系。

That is just a private legal framework.

它们自己定了套关于形象使用的规则，你只要用 Content ID 这类系统，它们就会说：‘我们认出你了。’

They just made up some rules about likeness and you can sign up for it in just the way that Content ID works on YouTube, they're like, we saw your face.

没错。

Right.

你在卖鞋子。

You're selling shoes.

你希望我们把它删掉吗？

Do you want us to take it down?

他们真会删掉的。

And they'll take it down.

这么多平台都在自创各种规则。

That's a lot of platforms inventing a bunch of frameworks.

你觉得

Do you

这能管用吗？

think that's gonna be effective?

你觉得

Do you

在推动国会或其他政府采取行动时，这里头有没有什么值得借鉴的地方？

think there's something to learn there as you push Congress or other governments to do stuff?

还是说，这对艺术家来说只是又一种新的混乱？

Or does that feel like just another kind of chaos for artists to deal with?

这感觉像是第一步，而且方向是对的，因为这些措施确实试图保护艺术家的权益和创作归属。

It feels like a first step and it feels like something that is headed in the right direction because those are things that are attempting to protect the artists and the ownership that they have.

我很欣赏有人愿意为此努力，但说实话，如果能有一个联邦层面的法律框架，或者整个行业都能遵守的统一规范，那就更好了。

And I appreciate people trying to do that and yet but it does make it difficult for the artists, having some federal framework, some federal legislation, or even an industry wide framework that we could all abide by would be even better.

但大家都在摸索着前进。

But everybody's just trying to figure this stuff out.

人们在经营自己的生意，艺术家在经营自己的事业，直播主也在经营自己的平台。

People are trying to run their businesses, artists are trying to run their businesses, streamers are trying to run their businesses.

这里面的动态太复杂了，真的很难应对。

And there's a lot that it's a dynamic that is very difficult.

我觉得我们以前从未经历过这样的时刻。

And I don't know that we faced a time like this before.

人人都爱说，这种事以前见过。

Everybody likes to say, we've seen this before.

我们以前也见过这种情况。

We've seen this before.

某种程度上，确实如此。

And to some degree, that's true.

我们见过采样。

We've seen sampling.

我们见过流媒体。

We've seen streaming.

就像我之前说的，我们还见过鼓机和那些颠覆创作过程的技术。

We've seen, as I said, drum machines and disruptive technologies in the creative process.

但这次不知为什么感觉不一样了，也许是我年纪大了才这么想，因为每一代人都会这么说他们那个时代的问题。

But this one for some reason feels different and maybe I'm showing my age when I say that because everybody says that about the the issues that are in their generation.

但现在，人类创作过程本身以及创作成果的归属权，正受到质疑或至少在被广泛讨论。

But the the change to the human creative process and the ownership of that is in question or at least being discussed right now.

我认为，这种变化在创意和音乐史上，还从未像现在这样紧迫，也从未像现在这样可能带来深远影响。

And I don't think it's been as acute as it's as it is now or has the potential to be now in the history of of where we are in creativity and music.

我没法站在你的立场上。

I don't sit in in your shoes.

我不用去扮演你必须扮演的角色。

I don't have to I don't have to play the roles you have to play.

我可以直来直去。

I can just be direct.

我看看世界经济的现状，就觉得那些人不该这么富有，而所有艺术家的收入应该高得多。

I look at the state of, I don't know, the world economy and I think those guys shouldn't be as rich as they are and all of the artists should be much richer than they are.

我完全同意。

I totally agree.

你有权利这么沮丧吗？有权利像你的粉丝、你的支持者和音乐圈希望的那样，把话说得这么明白吗？

Let's Are you allowed to be that frustrated and express that as clearly as I think your fans, as your constituencies, and the music community want you to say it?

是的。

Yeah.

我希望是这样。

I'd like to think so.

我认同艺术家、创作者和做音乐的人都是特别的。

I agree with artists and creators and people who make music are special.

他们就是不一样。

They just are.

他们为社会、为世界、为个人、为社区、为国家所做的一切，我作为音乐人，只能从这个角度去看。

And what they do for society, what we do for the world, what we do for individuals, for communities, for countries, And I'm a music person, so I just see it through that lens.

我觉得做这些事的人理应得到照顾、获得回报，应该能掌控自己的作品，决定它们如何被使用、如何被报酬、如何被署名。

But I think that the people who do that should be taken care of and should be compensated and they should have the ability to control what they make and they should have the ability to decide how it's being used and how they're compensated and how they're credited.

我坚信这一点。

I just strongly believe that.

在我的职业生涯里，我合作过太多特别的人了，你知道的。

And I in my career, I've worked with so many special people, you know.

我记得，我遗憾地参与过许多才华横溢的人的最后一张专辑。

And I remember, I've sadly worked on the last record of a lot of very talented people.

我做过惠特妮·休斯顿的最后一张专辑，迈克尔·杰克逊的最后一张专辑，还有卢瑟·范。

I worked on Whitney Houston's last record, Michael Jackson's last record, Luther Vann.

我记得很清楚，每当他们离世时，我都会想，我们失去的是一件如此重要、如此有意义的东西，而人们各自都有自己的难处。

And I remember distinctly when they've passed and thinking to myself, we've lost something so important and so meaningful and people have their challenges.

他们都有挣扎，有困扰。

They have struggles, issues.

每个人都有理由对某个艺术家感到不满。

Everybody has something they can get upset at an artist about.

但归根结底，当一位艺术家推出一首歌，你听着它开车、在婚礼上跳舞、或在音乐节现场，那种感觉是无可替代的。

But at the end of the day, when an artist makes a record and you feel that record and you're driving your car or you're dancing at a wedding or you're at a concert.

这世上没有任何东西能比得上那种体验。

There's nothing in the world like that.

是的。

Yeah.

那些创作者，还有让这一切成为可能的人，我们得好好守护他们。

And those people and the people that allow that to happen, we have to watch out for them.

不管他们个人有什么缺点或过失，都不能抹杀他们为这个世界带来的价值。

Regardless of some of their shortcomings or some of their fault because of what they put into the world.

我觉得这特别有力量。

And I just think that's powerful.

你去和人工智能公司开会的时候，能带着这种热情去吗？

Are you allowed to bring this fire to your meeting with the AI companies?

这其实正是我想问的。

That's that's really what I'm asking here.

我的观众能感受到那种挫败感。

I for my audience, I sense frustration.

是的。

Yeah.

这段内容会发到YouTube上，我建议你去看看那些 inevitable 的评论，基本都在问：为什么哈维不抓萨姆·艾尔曼？

This is gonna go out on YouTube and I invite you to take a scroll through the inevitable YouTube comments we're gonna get, which basically come down to why isn't Harvey arresting Sam Allman.

对吧？

Right?

我做这档节目时，总能感受到这种情绪。

Like that's the vibe I get on this show all the time.

是的。

Yeah.

这些人把一切都拿走了。

These guys are they've stolen everything.

本该获得价值的人——那些带给我们快乐的人——却一无所获。

And the people who should be getting the value, the people who make us feel joy are getting nothing.

人们以前对Spotify就是这种感觉。

That's how people felt about Spotify.

现在人们对YouTube也越来越有这种感觉了。

That's increasingly how people feel about YouTube.

你在和科技公司会谈、推动政策时，能带着这种怒气去吗？还是你选择了一种更委婉的方式？

Are you allowed to bring the fire to your meetings and in your advocacy or are you playing a a more subtle game?

不管去哪儿，我都会带着这份热情。

I try and bring fire with me no matter where I go.

明白了。

Alright.

但这也是一种关系，是一场持久战。

But also it is a a relationship and it's a long term play.

这事不可能马上就能成。

This is not gonna happen instantly.

你如何与人互动，会直接影响结果。

And how you're interacting with people is going to affect the outcome.

正如我之前说的，我相信他们也在做生意，就像我努力经营和保护自己的事业一样。

And I and I do believe, as I said, they're trying to run a business just like I'm trying to run a business or protect the business.

解决问题不是靠我一味强压他们。

And finding a solution is not gonna be me just bulldozing them.

而是我们要一起找到一个双方都能接受的方案。

It's gonna be how do we come together to find something that works for both of us.

我得说，就像当年流媒体刚出现的时候，人们对我们也是怨声载道。

And I have to say much like streaming, when streaming came out, people were up in arms about us.

流媒体太糟糕了。

Streaming is horrible.

我们没拿到钱。

We're not getting paid.

但另一方面，你也看到听音乐的人多了多少。

But on the other side of that, you see how many more people are listening to the music.

你看到有多少人通过平台发现了以前根本不知道的新艺人。

You see how many more people are finding new artists that they never knew before.

有多少人因为在网上听到喜欢的歌，才跑去听现场演出。

How many people are being encouraged to go to concerts because they discovered the song that they love on a streaming platform.

所以这中间有得有失。

So there are trade offs.

如果有人一上来就全面否定流媒体，我们会失去很多其他机会，那些都是你没料到的。

So if somebody goes and just blows up streaming right off the bat, we lose a lot of other opportunities that are unintended or you might not have thought of.

所以对待AI领域的人，情况也差不多。

So approaching the AI people is kind of the same thing.

没错，我们确实有些问题，但同时，你们也带来了可能对我们所有音乐人、乃至整个社会都有好处的东西。

Yes, we have some issues, but yes, you're also bringing something that could potentially benefit all of us, music creators, society at large.

那你要怎么应对这个挑战呢？

And so how do you manage that as I guess the challenge?

音乐行业里有一些强势的巨头。

There are some bulldozers in the music industry.

流媒体刚兴起的时候，泰勒·斯威夫特硬是逼着行业改了分成模式，最后大家都跟着这么做了。

When streaming came out, Taylor Swift bulldozed her way into a rate structure that eventually most of the industry adopted.

她当时在《华尔街日报》发了一篇长文，说她为什么不上 Spotify。

She put a big article, think it was in Wall Street Journal about being on not being on Spotify at that time.

环球音乐集团就存在那儿。

Universal Music exists.

那可能是最大的一个巨头了。

That is maybe the biggest bulldozer of all.

卢西安爵士。

Sir Lucian.

卢西安·格兰奇爵士，绝对是最大的巨头之一。

Sir Lucian Grange, one of the biggest bulldozers of all.

他呢，一直在用非常策略性的方式跟Suno和Udios打官司、和解。

He's, you know, he's suing and settling with Sunos and and Udios in very tactical ways.

对吧？

Right?

争议的核心在于，Suno生成的歌曲能不能导出成MP3文件自由分享，还是必须通过平台播放——这样至少还能起到一定的把关作用。

The fight is whether the songs in Suno can be exported as m p three files to be shared freely or whether you have to listen to them on a platform, which provides at least some gatekeeping.

我不确定这招管不管用。

I don't know if that's effective.

我不觉得这种限制真能奏效。

I don't know if that's an effective restriction.

我能想到至少五十种办法绕过它，以前做音乐的时候。

I can think of 50 ways to get around that as an old music At

至少五十种。

least 50.

但你看，这就是那些巨头们的态度：好，我们就要限制你们的平台。

But like, this is the level that the bulldozers are saying, okay, we are gonna restrict your platform.

你觉得音乐产业有这样的权力，真能带头反击吗？

Do you think that the that kind of power in the music industry can lead the charge on pushing back?

当然能。

Yes.

这是有可能的。

It can.

但真能见效吗？

Will it be effective?

时间会说明一切。

We'll see.

我相信，他们比我都更清楚这一点，毕竟他们聪明、有实力，而且深思熟虑。

At some point, I'm sure they all realize this much more than I do because they're incredibly smart and powerful and thoughtful.

但消费者想要什么，他们就想要什么。

But consumers want what consumers want.

不管你怎么设障碍，想阻止消费者接触音乐，都很难成功——毕竟，人们就是想听歌。

And friction between consumers and music or consumers and how they access their music, those are things that you can push against as much as you would like to and it's probably not gonna work because people wanna listen to their music.

所以，是的，我认为强有力的领导、法律诉讼以及努力保护版权很重要， hopefully 会推动行业朝着正确的方向前进。

So yes, I think strong leadership and lawsuits and trying to be protective is important and it is hopefully gonna make advancements in the right direction.

但归根结底，正如我所说，人们就是想要他们的音乐，想听音乐，而这种需求可能会因为各种因素发生变化——包括诉讼、技术冲击，还有音乐粉丝本身。

But at the end of the day, as I said, people want their music, they wanna listen to it, and that's probably gonna change based on a lot of things, the lawsuits, the bulldozers, but also fans of music.

我想再问一个问题，然后我们简单聊一聊格莱美和迪士尼，做个收尾。

I wanna ask one more question here and then I wanna talk about the Grammys and Disney for one second to wrap it up.

你进过录音棚，亲眼见过艺术家们用这些工具的各种方式。

You've been in the studios, you've seen artists use these tools in all kinds of ways.

我猜你也用过这些工具，用过各种各样的方式。

I'm assuming you've used the tools in all kinds of ways.

你见过最创新的声音是什么？

What's the most innovative sound?

我从来没用过这些工具。

I've never used the tools.

你从来没用过

You've never used