puck 的首席执行官能否为影响者时代重塑新闻行业？

真的不知道怎么做。

really not sure how.

不。

No.

不。

No.

我会解决这个问题。

I will I will address that.

但我真的不认为这两者有关联。

But I I I don't because I don't think those two things are connected.

原因是我们确实有基于订阅的模式，去年我们的订阅收入增长了50%以上，这非常关键。

And the reason for that is we do have a subscriber based model where, our subscription revenue grew over 50% last year and that is really critical.

我们掌控着分发渠道，我们的记者也不是成本中心。

We do control distribution, and our journalists are not a cost center.

我们看待每一个栏目时，都会仔细分析每个栏目的经济模式，并且我们会每半年与每位负责我们栏目的记者进行一次业务回顾。

The way that we look at each franchise is thinking through the economics of each of those franchises, And we do a business biannual business review with each of those reporters who anchor each of our franchises.

因此，我们在这个系统中带来的运营杠杆仍然能够确保这项工作得以完成。

So the operating leverage that we bring into this system still allows for this the the job to be done.

这项工作要做的并不是——我不会把影响者和创作者仅仅定义为那些做整合品牌合作的人，但——

The the job to be done is not and I I wouldn't define influencers and creators only as those that do like integrated brand partnerships, but

但那正是他们所有人赚钱的方式。

like But that's how they all make their money.

那可能是他们赚钱的方式，但马特·贝尔oni之所以在好莱坞圈内极具影响力，是因为他在报道这个行业。

That might be how they make their money, but Matt Belloni is very influential in the Hollywood in the world of Hollywood because he is reporting on it.

这种影响力很重要，但更重要的是他所建立的关系。

And that influence matters, but also the relationship that he has.

这就是我一开始说他深入挖掘信息来源的原因，这并不是马特一个人的特例，但当你身处这个行业时，你就知道你必须阅读他的报道，因为他报道的是内幕故事。

This is why I started out by saying he goes so deep into his sourcing, and this is not Matt's an illustration of all of our our journalists, But when you are in that industry, you know you have to read him because he is reporting on the inside story.

他让你接触到你通常无法获得的信息。

He's giving you access to information that you would not normally have access to.

而他正是以高利润率的商业模式做到这一点的。

And he does that with a high margin business.

所以，是的，我们的收入模式是双重的。

So, yes, our revenue model is twofold.

我们知道，我们有订阅收入模式和商业收入模式，也就是广告模式。

Know, we have a subscriber revenue model and we have a commercial revenue model, an advertising model.

你所描述的那些无法实现以人才和记者为核心的盈利业务，我不同意这种观点。

Those things that you're describing that you can't have a profitable business that is talent led and journalist led, I would disagree with.

我认为这完全有可能，这也是为什么我们每位记者都拥有公司的股权和所有权，因为我们希望他们能被激励，在成本问题上做出艰难的决定。

I think that is absolutely possible and that is the reason why each of our journalists have equity and ownership in the company is because we want them to be incentivized to make hard decisions around cost.

比如，我们在这些方面非常严谨。

Like, we're we we are very diligent in those things.

我们还有幸成立才四年半，而不是像其他公司那样已经运营了二十年。

We also have the luxury of being four and a half years old and not having been built, you know, for the last twenty years.

因此，我经常说，能够领导这家公司，并带领它在收入、内容、人才和订阅用户增长方面实现重大突破，这真的是一种莫大的荣誉。

And so that's also I I I consistently say I I it is, again, a real honor to be able to lead this company and to lead it through significant advancements in growth from a revenue perspective, from a content perspective, from a talent perspective, and then also from a subscriber growth perspective.

我们刚刚突破了十万付费订阅用户。

We just hit over a 100,000 paying subscribers.

我们有，你知道的，多达一百万的读者在阅读这份出版物。

We have, you know, upwards of a million just, you know, folks overall that are reading the publication.

这非常重要。

And that that's significant.

说到你的平台部分

To get to your platform piece

但事实上，我能问一下吗？2025年公布的最新数字是45,000吗？

But, actually, can I just ask you the last public number from 2025 was 45,000?

所以这65,000是来自Air Mail收购的吗？

So the the 65,000 is from the Air Mail acquisition?

抱歉。

The I'm sorry.

55,000是来自Air Mail收购，才让我们突破了十万大关。

55,000 is from the Air Mail acquisition to get to over a 100.

这是我们最后一次与布莱恩·沃西宣布的公开数字，当时是重启阶段。

It it is the last public number we announced with, Brian Worsey and the rebooting.

我宣布我们已经达到了十万用户。

I announced that we had hit a 100,000.

我们实际上并不区分具体数字，因为那45,000我认为是2024年的数据。

We don't break out actually the difference between because that that 45,000, I think, was a 2024 number.

但通过收购Air Mail，我们的用户数远超十万。

But with the acquisition of Air Mail, we well exceed a 100,000.

好的。

Okay.

所以你可以大致推算出来。

So you can just kinda back into it.

你们只有一个公开的数字。

You you you had one public number.

你们进行了一次收购。

You made an acquisition.

你们的用户数大幅增长，达到了另一个公开数字。

You had a much you had a big jump to another public number.

Air Mail 的结构是一样的吗？

Is does Air Mail have the same structure?

他们有股权吗？

Do they have equity?

他们有收入分成吗？

Do they have a revenue share?

是的。

Yeah.

所以目前，通过这次收购，我们正在处理所有员工的薪酬、股权和所有权问题。

So right now with the acquisition, we're working through all of the employee based comp for, equity and ownership.

现在整个公司是一个整体，薪酬结构也完全统一。

It's it's all one collective company and all all one same compensation structure.

Air Mail 是一个品牌。

Air Mail was a brand.

对吧？

Right?

格雷登·卡特是个品牌人物。

Graydon Carter is a brand person.

《名利场》是一个品牌。

Vanity Fair was a brand.

你本来并不需要知道格雷登·卡特是谁，除非你是那种必须知道他是谁的人，而那时他非常重要。

You were not really supposed to know who Graydon Carter was unless you were the sort of person who needed to know who Graydon Carter was, and then he was very important.

Air Mail 的创建大致遵循了这种模式。

Air Mail was kinda built in that model.

对吧？

Right?

Air Mail 有多少人工作？

How many people worked at Air Mail?

我想Air Mail有四十五到五十人，Puck也有四十五到五十人，总体人才比例大约是五五开。

I think we have forty five forty five to 50 people from Air Mail, and 45 to 50 people from Puck were about fifty fifty in terms of talent overall.

不过在整合过程中，为了让你的听众理解，当你进行收购时，你需要考虑并购后的整合，以及如何将两家公司融合，如何思考卓越中心——比如一方有四位财务人员，另一方也有四位财务人员。

Although with the integration as, just for your listener base, as you do an acquisition, one thing that you think about is the post merger integration and how you bring two companies together, how you think about centers of excellence where you might have four finance people on one side and you have four finance people on the other side.

所以我们做了大量的协同工作。

So we did a lot of that synergy work.

而且

And

通常当人们说协同工作时，意思就是裁员。

Usually when people say synergy work, mean layoffs.

你们裁员了吗？

Did you lay people off?

我们从Air Mail这边裁掉了一些人，从Puck这边也裁掉了一些人。

We laid off a few people from the Air Mail side and a few people from the Puck side.

是的。

Yes.

我们确实裁了。

We did.

我们非常谨慎和用心。

We were really thoughtful and really careful.

我们在收购后的前24小时内就内部沟通了这一点，评估了哪些团队人员过剩，并决定从业务的任一侧调配人员。

We communicated that within, the first twenty four hours of of the acquisition and reviewed where we felt like we had too many people on within one team and then where we would port folks over from either side of the business.

那么，现在负责对外代表公司、创造收入的员工与管理层之间的比例分别是多少？

And then the so the the total split between the talent who's supposed to go out and be the face of the company and make all the money and the management is what now?

管理层方面，我们的领导团队有9个人，而记者和编辑团队大约有40人，还有可能……

Management, we have nine people on our leadership team, and then we have, across our journalists and editorial teams, probably 40, and then maybe yeah.

40到50人左右，其余的都在销售、市场和技术团队。

Forty forty to 50, and then the rest are in sales, marketing, our technology team.

我们的战略和运营团队非常小。

We have a very small strategy and ops team.

我问这个问题的原因之一是，我知道一些人从大型媒体公司离职，去了Substack或Ghost之类的平台，但也有朋友从Substack离职，转投其他邮件服务商，因为他们觉得Substack抽成10%太高了。

One of the reasons I'm asking this is, you know, I I have friends who've left big media jobs to go to Substack or Ghost or whatever, and then I have friends who have left Substack to go to another email provider because they think Substack's 10% is too much.

他们觉得从Substack得不到应有的价值。

They're not getting the value out of Substack.

你收取的费用超过10%了，就像我刚才描述的，为一位独立记者承担这些运营成本，相比他们能获得的收入，这笔支出确实很高。

You're taking more than 10%, like I just describing that overhead for an individual journalist, that's a lot to pay into to support a sales team or whatever else might you might have compared to the revenue might get back.

你们如何为从独立记者那里抽取的分成进行辩护？

How do you justify the split you're taking from the individual reporters?

从薪酬角度来看，我们每年都会评估我们的薪酬水平与行业标准的对比，针对我们的记者和编辑们

From a compensation perspective, and we do on an annual basis, we look at our our comps on compensation relative to the industry, and our journalists and editors

这个行业是指媒体行业、Substack行业，还是Instagram网红行业？

the industry is the media industry or the substack industry or the the Instagram influencer industry?

媒体行业。

The media industry.

我们的薪酬远高于或远远超过当前的行业水平。

And our comps are well higher than at or very much above the, current comps.

此外，我们的记者以及所有员工都持有公司的股权和所有权。

And then also our journalists, but all of our employees have equity and ownership in the company.

因此，我非常有信心，我们对员工的薪酬方式与公司的整体利益高度一致并具有激励性。

So I feel very confident that the way we pay our people is very much aligned and incentivized with the holistic company.

我认为在Substack这边，所以

I think on the the Substack side so

等等。

Wait.

我能问一下关于股权的事吗？

Can I just ask about that equity?

你们会向股权支付股息吗，还是这只是纸上财富？

Are you paying dividends on equity, or is that just paper money?

不会。

No.

我们不会，因为我们不是上市公司。

We are not because we're not a public company.

我在问这些股权值多少钱。

I'm asking what the equity is worth.

我是那个在一家媒体公司持有大量纸面股权的人。

Why I I'm I'm the person who owns a bunch of paper equity in a media company.

这很好。

It's great.

有时候我会想到它。

Sometimes I think about it.

它没法支付账单。

It doesn't pay the bills.

对吧？

Right?

比如，它能支付你们团队的工资吗？

Like, does it pay the bills for your people?

嗯，我理解你的意思。

Well, I I appreciate that.

目前还不能，但公司的价值，尤其是最近的收购之后，此前积累的基础已经让股权价值大幅提升。

Not at the current moment, but the value and especially with the recent acquisition, but what everything was built on prior to that has made the value of the equity significantly higher.

而且，作为曾在另一家公司经历IPO前阶段的人，我相信股权是薪酬结构中重要的一部分。

And as someone who was also at another company pre IPO, I I believe in ownership as a a component part of a compensation structure.

对于你们的听众，我也鼓励他们认真考虑这一点。

For your listeners, I would also encourage them to really consider that as well.

你需要认真考虑你的总薪酬包，也就是TTC，它蕴含着巨大的价值。

There is there is a ton of value to think about your your TTC, your total compensation package.

所以，虽然我理解你的观点，但我只是想确保你正在引导你的年轻听众们

So, immediately, while I appreciate your point, I just wanna make sure you're guiding your your young listeners

如果你要获得股权并且它最终能带来巨额回报，你就需要一个退出事件。

to be you're gonna if you're gonna get equity and it's gonna pay off a huge number, you need an exit event.

你的退出计划是什么样的？

What's your exit event look like?

这确实是个非常好的问题。

That that's a a really good question.

目前，我们完全专注于继续发展我们迄今为止已经取得成功的公司，对此我们感到非常有信心。

And right now, we are completely focused on continuing to grow the successful company that that we've built thus far and feel really good about that.

所以，目前并没有退出策略

So so no exit strategy at

当前，没错。

the current Right.

所以，我只是想再就这一点专注一下。

So I I just wanna I just wanna stay focused on this for one second.

是的。

Yeah.

我们的情况比正在衰落且薪酬低廉的媒体行业要好。

We're we're saying we're we're we're doing better than the media industry, which is dying and pays at low rates.

我们可能不如网红行业或Substack行业那么好，如果你在那个领域达到了顶尖水平，收入会极其丰厚，而你正用非流动性的股权来弥补这一差距，而且目前没有任何明确的流动性计划。

We're not maybe doing as well as the influencer industry, the substack industry, which if you're if you're a winner at the level that you might need people to be a winner at, pays at extraordinarily high rates and that you're making up the gap with equity that is not liquid and there's no stated plan to be liquid.

那么，你的员工是否应该期待通过退出事件来收回这些回报？

So should your employees expect an exit to pay that off?

让我澄清一下，因为那并不是我的原意。

Let me just clarify because that that is not what I said.

当然。

Sure.

我说过，基本薪酬处于或高于行业水平，而且我觉得

I said that the base compensation is at or above the industry level, and I feel The

媒体行业。

the media industry.

媒体行业。

The media industry.

离开媒体行业，因为他们可以在Substack上赚更多钱。

Leave the media industry because they can get more money on Sub Substack.

这正是我在问的问题。

That's what I'm that's what I'm asking.

我觉得这很有趣，因为我们实际上有两位Aqua员工之前来自Substack，这是因为她们觉得自己无法很好地在该平台上实现盈利。

Well, so I I think that's very interesting, because we've actually done two of our Aqua hires prior to came from Substack, and that's because they don't feel like they're capable of monetizing the platform as well.

这也是因为Substack的世界——实际上我认为Substack是一个非常有趣的平台。

It's also because the world of Substack and and I actually think Substacks are a very interesting platform.

我对这家公司内部情况了解不多。

I I I don't have a ton of internal knowledge about the company.

我觉得他们在推动民主化方面所做的努力非常有意思。

Think what they're trying to do in terms of democratization is really interesting.

但我们发现，Substack 通常是一个独立运营者的平台，许多记者真正希望获得独立性，能够自由地讲述他们想讲的故事，同时拥有背后的支持体系，比如销售团队。

But what we've found is that Substack tends to be a platform of solo operators and many journalists are actually looking to be able to be independent and really be free to express the stories that they want to express, but also have infrastructure around them where they do have a sales team.

他们还拥有增长营销团队。

They do have a growth marketing team.

而这正是我们所构建的部分。

And that's the part that we've built out.

所以，你刚才所做的一些计算是错误的。

So, a lot of the calculations that you just went through are incorrect.

另一个例子是，我们的每一位作者都会根据他们获取和保留的订阅者数量获得奖金。

And another example of that is our our each of our authors get bonus based on the subscribers that they acquire and that they retain.

因此，他们有动力持续扩大规模。

So they are incentivized to continue to grow.

作为公司，我们也有动力帮助他们成长。

We're incentivized as a company to help them grow.

而这些收益最终会回馈给他们。

And that comes back to them.

所以你的总薪酬方案，我觉得你对股权的侧重有点过多，但again，所有权的目的在于让每个人都觉得自己在公司里有发言权，而这正是我们努力营造的重要部分。

So your total compensation package, I think you oriented a little bit too much around equity, but again, the purpose of ownership is that everyone should feel like they have a voice in the company and and that's a big part of what we're trying to create.

但我认为你所描绘的关于整个行业的挑战是非常真实的，我完全能理解。

But I I think that the the challenges that you're painting relative to the broader industry are are are very real, and and and I can appreciate that.

是的。

Yeah.

我只是想弄清楚，成为这个组织一员的价值在哪里。

I'm just trying to trying to understand what the value of being a part of the organization is.

还有，你知道的，马特·贝洛尼，我们在这里已经多次提到过他。

And, you know, Matt Belloni, we've talked about him several times here.

嗨，马特。

Hi, Matt.

我们这边非常欣赏你。

We're big fans over here.

他在十一月被《纽约时报》做过专题报道，其中有句话是这么说的：‘可以肯定的是，如果我独立运营，至少在短期内我能赚更多钱，但我不确定。’

He was profiled in New York Times in November, and this is a quote, he said, it's safe to say I could make a lot more money if I were independent, at least in the short term, but I don't know.

我想在Substack上发布吗？

Do I wanna be on Substack?

这确实有些模糊。

That's some ambiguity.

对吧？

Right?

你在那个平台上能做的事情，就像我们节目的听众非常清楚的，我有很多关于这个平台的问题，但你在那个平台上能做的，是不用承担那么多运营成本就能赚到更多收入。

Like the the thing that you could do on that platform, and there's I have a lot of problems with that platform as listeners of show know very well, but the thing you can do on that platform is collect a lot more revenue without the overhead.

所有去那里的朋友都说：我不需要这么多东西。

All of my friends who go there say I don't need all this stuff.

我在社交媒体上有粉丝，我可以把他们转化过来在这里付费，所有收入都归我。

I have fans on social media and I can convert them to get paid over here, and I will make all the money for myself.

所以我想搞清楚，加入这个更大的组织、支付比Substack的营销费用还高的分成，到底有什么价值？

So I'm I'm trying to really just nail down what's what's the value of being part of the the greater organization and paying a higher cut even than you would pay to Substack for their marketing?

是你们的销售团队吗？

Is it your sales team?

是增长营销团队吗？

Is it the growth marketing team?

是产品吗？

Is it product?

这又是怎么运作的？

How does that work?

我认为是整个集体的力量。

I I think it's the collective whole.

而且，我不认同你的计算，但这没关系。

And again, I I don't agree with your calculations, but that's that's okay.

抱歉，我说什么了？

What what I'm sorry.

我做了哪些计算让你不认同？

What calculations have I made that you disagree with?

我觉得我们拿走的分成并不是更多

I I I don't think that we take a a greater cut of

你不觉得为Puck工作所带来的额外负担比子团队的10%还要高吗？

You don't think the overhead of working for Puck is greater than sub stacks 10%?

我认为，从广告和订阅者的角度来看，我们所提供的价值，包括福利和奖金，确实是更高的。

I I think that what we provide relative to scale from an advertising perspective and a subscriber perspective as well as paying benefits as well as providing bonuses Sure.

确实更高。

Is is higher.

所以，这就是我的立场。

So that that's that's where I'm coming at it from.

我很感谢你一直不断质疑这一点，但我只是觉得，我不认同这个说法。

I I appreciate you con continuing to to pick at it, but I just, you know, I I disagree with that statement.

我的意思是，如果你说我们提供医疗保险，我认为这对很多人来说是有意义的。

I mean, if you just said we provide health insurance, I think that's meaningful for a lot a lot of people.

我明白。

Like, I I get it.

对吧？

Right?

医疗保险。

Health insurance.

我有两个孩子，这一直是我考虑的问题，每当有人问我是否要独立工作时。

I have two kids, and that's always on my mind, you know, whenever someone asks me about going independent.

我会说，不行。

I'm like, no.

我有两个孩子，而且我非常喜欢经营我的新闻团队。

I have two kids, like and I love running my newsroom.

但对我认识的许多考虑这个问题的人来说，他们的想法并不是该去另一家公司工作。

But the the dynamic for a lot of people I know thinking about this isn't I should go work for another company.

对我来说，如果我自己创业，回报是非常高的。

It's the rewards for me are very high if I go out on my own.

我觉得你试图在中间找平衡，而我只是想找到这种模式的边界在哪里。

And I think you're trying to sit in the middle of that and I'm just trying to find the edges of how that model works.

因为如果你陷入传统的成本结构，这个模式就无法持续。

Because if you end up in, you know, traditional cost structure, it won't work.

如果你完全偏向这边，你就要和一个平台免费获取所有内容的成本结构竞争。

And if you end up all the way over here, you're competing with a cost structure where the platforms get all the content for for free.

或者在Substack的情况下，人们为内容付费，这可能是所有模式中最好的商业模式。

Or in Substack's case, people pay them for the content, which is maybe the best business model of them all.

而Puck就处在中间位置，我只是想弄清楚这个模式究竟是如何运作的。

And I somewhere in the middle is Puck, and I'm just trying to figure out how that model actually works.

所以你说得对。

So you are correct.

我们确实处在中间位置。

We do sit in the middle.

对吧？

Right?

这正是我们能够吸引到如此出色、具有代际天赋的人才的原因，因为我们允许并支持记者，不仅仅是马特，还有比尔·科汉。

And that's why we are able to get the incredible generationally talented individuals that we have, because we allow and support journalists, not just Matt, but Bill Cohan.

我还提到了在人工智能领域工作的伊恩·克雷茨伯格。

I mentioned Ian Kreisberg on the AI front.

我们一年前刚引进了劳伦·谢尔曼和金·马斯特斯。

Lauren Sherman, we just brought on Kim Masters a year ago.

玛丽安·曼尼克、迪伦·拜尔斯。

Marian Maniker, Dylan Byers.

这些是极其出色的记者，他们在所报道和引领的行业中拥有最权威的声音。

These are incredible journalists that have some of the foremost voices inside of the industries that they write about and that they lead.

他们是组织的一部分，但同时也能够保持独立。

They're a part of an organization, but they're also able to be independent.

他们确实有医疗保险，对吧？

They do get healthcare, right?

这确实很重要。

And that does matter.

他们有奖金，也会收到反馈，但没人告诉他们该追哪些新闻。从大型媒体机构转向Substack的好处在于，有些人是为了钱，但更多人是为了独立性。

And they do have bonuses and they do have, feedback that they get, but they're also not told what stories to chase and the benefit of moving from a large media organization through to substack of it all, the motivation for some might be money, but the motivation for many is independence.

我们努力在保持独立性与拥有支持性基础设施之间取得平衡，让你能够承担一些风险。

And we try to capture the balance between being able to be independent but also having a support infrastructure in place that allows you to take some of those risks.

这非常特别。

It's quite special.

而且，我认为这正是我们的订阅用户群体如此忠诚且持续增长的原因，因为他们能在作者身上感受到这一点。

And and that's, again, I think the reason why we have a subscriber base that's also incredibly loyal and and growing, because they can feel that in the authors.

当我与Substack的员工或那些转投Substack的人交谈时，他们对这10%的解释通常是，Substack带来的订阅者增长比任何其他平台都多。

When I talk to people at Substack or the people who have moved to Substack about that 10%, the justification is generally that Substack drives more subscriber growth than any other platform.

而离开Substack的人则发现他们的订阅者增长速度明显放缓。

And the people who've left Substack have seen a pretty rapid decline in how fast their subscribers grow.

Substack基本上已经把它的应用变成了一个封闭的花园。

Substack has turned its app basically into a walled garden.

他们说他们做邮件，但你现在打开后，界面看起来却像Twitter，里面还有播客，他们甚至打造了一个小社交网络，尽管他们声称自己并没有做社交网络。

They they say they do email but now you open it and it looks like a Twitter and there's podcasts inside of it and they've made a little social network even though they claim they haven't made a social network.

这没什么问题，而且确实有效，因为它为许多用户带来了大量的订阅者增长。

And that's fine and it's working because it's driving a lot of subscriber growth for a lot of their people.

当你订阅一个Substack时，他们会自动帮你订阅另外七个，他们的应用里存在一些隐蔽的诱导设计。

When you subscribe to one sub stack, they like sign you up for seven more, like they have dark patterns in that app.

那就是他们的10%。

That is their 10%.

他们会直视着你说，我们知道人们觉得这个数字很高，但我们说，如果你离开，你的新订阅者增长速度会下降，而这10%是值得的。

They will look you in the eye and say, we know people think this is a high number and we say if you leave, your rate of new subscribers will go down and that's worth the 10%.

一旦我们不再提供这种价值，我们就知道人们会离开。

And the second we stop delivering that, we know people are gonna turn off.

Puck的情况也一样吗？

Is that the same for Puck?

是健康保险加上订阅者增长吗？

Is it it health insurance plus subscriber growth?

你们的订阅者增长机制是什么？

What's the mechanism for subscriber growth for you?

我不是Substack的专家。

I'm not an expert in Substack.

我能说的是，Substack上的许多订阅者——至少从我们招聘的Aqua员工来看——并不是付费订阅者。

What I can say is that many of the subscribers on Substack, at least from the Aqua hires that we have made, are not paying subscribers.

我之前提到的订阅收入来自付费订阅者，增长也来自付费订阅者。

The subscription revenue that I mentioned before is from paying subscribers and the growth is from paying subscribers.

因此，拥有优秀的基础薪酬，再加上股权、医疗保险、休假政策以及当你想休假时有人支持你，这些都带来了额外的好处。

And so the additional benefit from having great base comp, and then also having equity and having healthcare and health insurance and a vacation policy and all of that good stuff and folks to support you when you do wanna go on vacation.

除了这些之外，这又回到了订阅者奖金的激励机制上。

Aside from all of those things, it goes back to the incentive around the subscriber bonus.

正如我之前所说，增长是由营销驱动的。

So as I mentioned before, the growth is driven by marketing.

我们的增长来自于记者们创作的内容以及他们所讲述的故事。

Our growth is driven by the content that our journalists create and the stories that they are are selling.

此外，我们现在还在围绕这些个人打造多模态的系列品牌，比如通过活动业务。

And then it's also created now because we're we are building sort of multimodal, franchises around these individuals, whether it's through event businesses.

而且，我们所有参与活动的创作者都能获得活动奖金。

Also, all of our talent gets bonus on the events that they are a part of.

因此，你有订阅者获取奖金、留存奖金和活动奖金，这就是我们的创作者因为投入的工作、时间和精力而获得激励和报酬的核心价值主张。

So you have the subscriber acquisition bonus, you have a retention bonus, you have an events bonus, and that is our talent getting incentivized and paid for the work and the time and the energy that they're putting in, and that's really the crux of the value proposition.

但再说一遍，如果你的播客里有志成为记者的人，他们想当记者的动机是什么？

But again, would go back to like, if you have any aspiring journalists on your pod, what's the motivation that they have around wanting to be a journalist?

如果他们的动机是能够报道和讲述独立的故事，同时获得经济回报，我认为我们是一家罕见的、致力于实现这一目标的公司。

And if it is to be capable of reporting and telling independent stories and also being able to be financially compensated, I think that we are a rare breed of trying to create a company that fosters that.

对我来说，当我考虑选择来这里而不是去另一家大型科技公司时，这个使命是我强烈的动力。

And that to me, again, when I think about the career choice to come here versus going to another big technology company, I it was a a a strong motivator for me was that mission.

我们得再短暂休息一下。

We have to take another quick break.

我们马上回来。

We'll be back in just a minute.

本节目由MongoDB赞助。

Support for the show comes from MongoDB.

如果你厌倦了数据库的限制和扩展时崩溃的架构，是时候跳出行和列的思维了。

If you're tired of database limitations and architectures that break when you scale, it's time to think outside of rows and columns.

因为说实话，你进入科技行业并不是为了照看一个出问题的数据库。

Because let's be honest, you didn't get into tech to babysit a broken database.

你投身于此是为了真正地构建一些东西。

You got into it to actually build something.

MongoDB 让你能做到这一点。

MongoDB lets you do that.

它灵活、以开发者为中心、符合 ACID 标准、适合企业使用，并专为 AI 时代打造。

It's flexible, developer first, ACID compliant, enterprise ready, and built for the AI era.

告别瓶颈和遗留代码。

Say goodbye to bottlenecks and legacy code.

立即开始使用 MongoDB 进行创新。

Start innovating with MongoDB.

它之所以被众多财富 500 强企业信赖，是有原因的——因为它是一个由开发者为开发者打造的平台。

There's a reason it's trusted by so many of the Fortune 500, and that's because it's a platform built by developers for developers.

MongoDB，这真是个棒极了的数据库。

MongoDB, it's a great freaking database.

立即前往 mongodb.com/build 开始构建。

Start building at mongodb.com/build.

本期节目由CNN赞助支持。

Support for today's show comes from CNN.

你想永生吗？

Do you want to live forever?

著名记者卡拉·斯威舍尔正在深入审视长寿产业，以区分网红炒作与实证科学。

Influential journalist Kara Swisher is taking a hard look at the longevity industry to separate the influencer hype from evidence backed science.

在她的全新CNN原创系列节目中，卡拉与硅谷的重量级人物对话，并亲身体验最新的抗衰老技术，以辨别哪些有效、哪些是浪费。

In her new CNN original series, Kara's talking to Silicon power players and trying out the latest in antiaging technology to see what works and what's a waste.

卡拉·斯威舍尔希望永生。

Cara Swisher wants to live forever.

新集数每周日上线，需CNN订阅方可观看。

New episodes streaming Sundays with a CNN subscription.

前往 cnn.com/subscribe 开始观看。

Go to cnn.com slash subscribe to start watching.

你经常听到关于人工智能取代人类的讨论。

You hear a lot of talk about AI replacing humans.

好奇心引发了一个更好的问题：人类将如何塑造人工智能？

Curiosity invites a better question: How will humans shape AI?

这正是SAS数十年来一直在研究的课题。

That's something SAS has been working on for decades.

他们正在庆祝在数据和人工智能领域五十周年的成就，早在负责任的人工智能成为潮流之前，他们就已经围绕透明度、治理和信任构建系统了。

They're celebrating fifty years in data and AI, and long before responsible AI was trendy, they were building systems around transparency, governance, and trust.

如果你好奇负责任的人工智能究竟是什么样子，请访问sas.com了解更多。

If you're curious about what responsible AI actually looks like, visit sas.com to learn more.

那就是sas.com。

That's sas.com.

你好。

Hi.

我是布琳·布朗。

I'm Brene Brown.

我是亚当·格兰特。

And I'm Adam Grant.

我们在这里邀请你来参观‘好奇心商店’。

And we're here to invite you to The Curiosity Shop.

这是一个专注于倾听、好奇、思考、感受与质疑的播客。

A podcast that's a place for listening, wondering, thinking, feeling, and questioning.

这会很有趣。

It's gonna be fun.

我们很少意见一致。

We rarely agree.

但我们几乎从不争吵，而且总是在学习。

But we almost never disagree, and we're always learning.

没错。

That's true.

你可以在YouTube上订阅《好奇心商店》，或在你最喜欢的播客应用中关注我们，每周四自动接收新 episodes。

You can subscribe to The Curiosity Shop on YouTube or follow in your favorite podcast app to automatically receive new episodes every Thursday.

欢迎回来。

Welcome back.

我正在和Puck公司的首席执行官Personette讨论Puck的新受众来源。

I'm talking with Puck CEO, Personette, about where new audiences for Puck come from.

你们的增长来自哪里？

Where does your growth come from?

对吧？

Right?

如果你们的员工薪酬提高了，如果他们因为订阅用户增长而获得奖金，那么新增客户究竟从哪里来？

If if your folks are getting paid more, if they're getting bonuses on subscriber growth, where does the net new customer come from?

新增订阅用户来自于那些有趣且具有突破性的内容。

Net new subscribers come from content that is that is, like, interesting and breakthrough.

我认为之前所做的大量工作确实如此。

I think a lot of the work that has been done Right.

对。

Right.

我明白，但你总得把独家新闻发布到某个地方。

I understand, but you have to distribute the scoop somewhere.

它从哪里来？

Where where does it come from?

我想你是在回到平台这个部分，

I I think are you getting back to the platform piece that

是的。

Yeah.

你的

Where's your

谈的是

talk about the is

当朱莉娅·亚历山大——她是我最喜爱的人之一——讲一个精彩故事时，是搜索流量转化的吗？

is it do you when you make it when whoever when Julia Alexander, who's one of my very favorites, when she has a great story, is it search traffic that converts?

是她发推文带来的吗？

Is it her tweeting about it?

是Facebook短视频带来的吗？

Is it Facebook reels?

比如，新的订阅用户到底是从哪里来的？

Like, what what where does the net new subscriber come from?

是的。

Yeah.

这其实你也能理解，情况是这样的。

It there's an you're I would imagine you would understand this as well.

它并不是来自单一渠道。

It does not come from one singular place.

我们同时通过社交媒体平台进行自然推广。

We have the both organic side of leveraging social platforms.

我们非常鼓励作者们在推特上分享他们的文章。

We absolutely encourage our authors to tweet about the stories that they have.

我们还有一个由一人组成的社交媒体团队，负责制作所有自然内容并利用各个平台进行推广。

We also have a a social team of one that develops all the organic content and and leverages the various platforms for that.

我们还有一个出色的传播团队，帮助分发从政治内容到其他所有栏目推出的所有文章。

We also have an incredible comms team that, also helps to distribute the the stories that are coming out of all of our political content all the way through to all the other, franchises.

此外，在体验层面，每当我们举办任何以人才为中心的活动时，我们都会谈论他们所做的工作，这些访谈也随之生动起来。

And then also on the experiential side, whenever we are doing any type of event that obviously is talent centric, we're talking about the work that they do and that those interviews are coming to life.

所以我认为，在这个环境中——正如我在本小时初所提到的——发生的这些转变意味着，不再存在一个将分发集中于一、二或三个地方的世界。

So I think in this environment, and I walked through at the top of the hour, the transitions that have occurred, there is no longer a world where distribution is centralized into one, two, or three places.

不再有一个单一的电视网络，你只要在上面做广告就能推动产品和增长。

There's not a singular television network that you can advertise on and drive product and growth.

不再有一个单一的平台，你只要在上面做广告就能推动增长。

There is not a singular platform that you can advertise on and drive growth.

这种碎片化和颠覆已经持续了二十多年。

That fragmentation and disruption has been happening for over twenty years.

所以，如果还有人说内容来自单一渠道，那真是令人惊叹。

So if if there's anyone that is saying it comes from a singular source, that that's amazing.

但我们充分利用了各个平台，结合付费和有机方式，让我们的内容触达新订阅用户。

But we leverage each of the various platforms and we leverage paid and we level leverage organic in order to get the work out in front of net new subscribers.

你们最大的渠道是什么？

What's your biggest channel?

比如，我会去问一个YouTuber，你的主要渠道是什么？

Like, I go and ask a YouTuber, what's your biggest channel?

他们会说，是YouTube的算法。

They will say the YouTube algorithm.

如果你问一个Substack用户，他们的主要渠道是什么，他们会说Substack。

If you ask a Substacker, what's your biggest channel, they will say Substack.

对吧？

Right?

他们与自己的分发方式深度融合，方式非常独特。

They're they're integrated with their distribution in in very particular ways.

他们并不总是喜欢这样。

They don't always love it.

我常开玩笑说，每个YouTuber只要拍一个关于他们有多生气YouTube的视频，就等于长出了翅膀。

My joke is that every YouTuber gets their wings when they make a video about how mad they are at YouTube.

对吧？

Right?

创作者与平台之间存在着一种紧张的关系。

This is a tense relationship between creators and their platforms.

但如果你问他们粉丝来自哪里，答案正是这些平台本身。

But if you ask them where the followers come from, it is the platforms themselves.

你的最大渠道是什么？

What's your biggest channel?

我会说，我们最大的付费渠道也是社交媒体平台和搜索引擎优化。

I would say our our biggest paid channel would be the would be social platforms as well as SEO.

如今，在行业向零点击趋势转变的过程中，我们正在大幅调整网站的开发方式以及针对地理位置的优化策略。

Now within the industry and sort of the migration to zero click, we we are transforming a lot of the way that even our our site is developed and the way that we optimize for GEO.

我的意思是，这在行业内是一个巨大的转变。

I mean, that's that's a a big shift in the industry.

等等。

Wait.

我只是想定义一些术语。

I just wanna define some terms.

我是提出'Google零'这个说法的人，所以我觉得是你吧？

I'm the person who came up with the phrase Google zero, so I think You did?

就是我。

That's me.

他们非常喜欢。

They love it.

他们真的喜欢吗？

Did they really?

我确实提出了。

I sure did.

事实上，在这个节目中，关于这个话题有很多可说的。

On this show, as a matter of fact, there's a lot to say about it.

我认为我们的听众都明白，'Google零'指的是谷歌停止向出版商输送搜索流量的情况。

I think our listeners understand Google zero is when Google stops sending search traffic to publishers.

你听过我多次谈论过这个话题。

You've heard me talk about it a lot.

GEO是生成式搜索优化，我认为这还未经证实，大部分都是噱头。

GEO is generative search optimization, which is, I would say, as yet unproven and mostly snake oil.

我不确定这算不算噱头，但我记得在Facebook工作时，至少很多市场营销和业务人员都说社交媒体是噱头，后来我看到同样的转变也发生在移动领域——当时没人相信会有人在手机上看视频，但现在视频已成为最主要的消费形式之一。

I don't know if it's snake oil, but I do remember when I was at Facebook and all, at least many people across marketing and businesses said that social was snake oil, and then I remember that same shift happening with mobile and that no one great example, no one would ever watch video on their mobile phones, and now it's one of the number one consumption, formats.

所以我可以告诉你这一点。

So I can tell you this.

作为一名企业领导者，我不能忽视AI正在更广泛地推动的变化——不仅在行业里，也在消费方式上；但你说得对，这确实尚未得到验证，因此它还不是一个单一的渠道或单一的投资方向，不过我们仍在探索：在一个‘Google零流量’的世界里，如何实现有机发现。

As a business leader, I can't ignore the changes that AI is driving more broadly in the not just in the industry, but in consumption, But I I think you're you're very, correct in saying that it it's not proven out yet, and so it's not the singular channel and or the singular investment, but but we are continuing to work on what does it mean to be organically discovered in a world that's, you know, Google zero.

所以，我再次觉得，你提出这个说法真的很棒，因为它已经在整个行业里广泛传播了。

So I I I again, I think that's really neat that you actually, that you came up with that language because it's it's, widespread across the industry.

你可以看看Naropa在我在这档节目中说出‘Google零’这个词时的反应。

You can watch the Naropa try react to me saying the words Google zero on this very show.

那对所有人来说都是一个有趣的时刻。

It was a fun moment for everyone.

我想我的问题是，你并没有像平台那样的单一顶层流量入口。

I guess my question there is, you don't have a singular top of funnel like a platform does.

你们没有糟糕的模式。

You don't have the bad model.

老牌媒体公司才有。

Old media companies do.

我并不是在说那种模式很好，事实上它们正在消亡。

I'm not in any way saying that was a good model, like they're dying.

我们正在看着它们消亡。

I'm we're watching them die.

你可以读到马特如何具体描述好莱坞正在消亡。

You can read Matt describe Hollywood is dying like very specifically.

那里的成本结构很糟糕。

Cost structure there is bad.

你们的成本结构处于中间位置，我只是想弄清楚你们的增长点在哪里，或者你们的计划是保持小规模。

Somewhere in the middle is your cost structure, and I'm just trying to figure out where you find the big growth from or if the plan is to remain small.

对吧？

Right?

因为现在似乎有两个选择需要做出。

Because that it feels like the there's two choices to be made right now.

我们的主要分发模式是通讯简报。

Our primary distribution model is newsletters.

我们不是一个技术平台。

We're not a technology platform.

所以，与YouTube、Facebook或Substack的比较并不适用，我们不是一家科技公司。

So the comparisons to YouTube or Facebook or Substack, we're not a technology company.

我们绝对是一家媒体公司，一家新闻与信息公司，一家以记者为中心的公司，而且再次强调，我们的主要分发方式是我们的创作者主导私人电子邮件或私人简报，发送给一个持续增长的受众，这些受众都是付费订阅者；此外，我们还拥有一个长期的潜在客户名单，并通过CRM等渠道继续向通过各种途径发现的新潜在客户进行营销，比如通过我们的社交媒体平台推广，或者通过其他读者的推荐——这些读者对某个故事感到兴奋和好奇，希望他们行业中的其他人也能了解正在发生的事情。

We are absolutely a media company, a news and information company, a journalist centric company, and again, the primary distribution is that our talent anchors a private email or private newsletter that gets distributed to an audience that is consistently growing related to paying subscribers, and then we also have a long leads list and we use channels like CRM in order to continue to market to hot leads, new leads that come in through discovery, whether it is, again, through through our social platform leverage, whether it is through a referral that's coming from another reader that is excited and intrigued about a story and wants somebody else in their industry to understand what's going on.

所有这些因素都构成了漏斗的顶端，最终目标是促成用户转化为付费订阅者。

All of those things fill the top of the funnel that ultimately drive to ideally conversion of becoming a paying subscriber.

因此，对于漏斗顶端，我认为可以分为付费和非付费两类，而非付费用户转化为付费用户的过程也是其中一个重要组成部分。

So that top of funnel, I think, the way that I think about it is really there's there are paying and unpaid, and the the conversion of unpaid to paid leads to subscribers is also a component part of that.

你提到了社交媒体渠道。

You talked about social channels.

我认为你所描述的这个世界中一个非常有趣的动态是，机构重要还是人才重要。

One of the dynamics I think is really interesting in the world you're describing is whether or not the institution is important or the talent's important.

你的重点明显放在了人才身上。

It very much feels like your emphasis is on the talent.

你们会在人才的社交媒体账号上投放付费广告吗？

Do you run paid social on your talent's social media feeds?

因为粉丝都在那里。

Because that's where the followers are.

还是你们希望人们关注Puck的官方账号？

Or do you have the Puck channel and you want people to follow that?

目前，我们不会在个人人才的社交媒体账号上投放付费广告。

Right now, we do not run, paid social on the individual talents.

在思考这个问题时，我觉得这确实是一个值得与内部人才重新探讨的有趣话题。

As I'm processing it, I'm like, that's a that's a really interesting conversation to come back around on with talent internally.

过去我们与他们沟通的方式是，许多人才希望拥有并自主运营自己的账号，当他们有问题或需要支持时，可以联系专门负责的人。

The way that we've managed in the past and through conversations with them is that a lot of talent wants to own and run their own channel and that and when they have questions or when they need support, they have a a person that they can call on for that.

但我们主要的增长来自于我们自有和运营的渠道。

But our primary growth has been through our owned and operated channels.

但我很喜欢这个观点。

But I I like the the provocation.

所以，如果大家对此持开放和感兴趣的态度，我一定会带回去进一步思考。

So so something I certainly will take back is if if folks are are open and interested in that.

这正是我认为对每个人来说都存在的动态。

Well, this is the this is the dynamic that I think it just is is for everyone.

记者离职的原因是，他们说：我有数万的Twitter粉丝，我只需从中变现两千人，就能赚到比你付给我的多得多的钱。

The reason that a reporter leaves is they say, I have however many tens of thousands of Twitter followers, I can monetize 2,000 of them and I'll make more money than you ever paid me.

我有过这样的对话，我相信你也经历过。

I've had this conversation, I'm sure you've had this conversation.

这个现象在世界上很普遍。

There's a lot of this in the world.

平台激励人们参与其中。

The platforms incentivize the people to participate.

对吧？

Right?

有无穷多的青少年愿意为Instagram免费制作内容。

There's an infinite supply of teenagers who will make content for Instagram for free.

所以他们不希望机构变得强大，因为新闻机构的数量并不是无限的。

And so they don't want the institutions to be powerful because you can't there's not an infinite supply of news organizations.

所以一旦你拥有了一点权力，你就可能得支付一些费用。

And so once you have a little bit of power there, you can't you you might have to pay some rates.

对吧？

Right?

数字媒体的原罪是约翰·阿普雷迪以为自己会走红，以至于Facebook会付钱给他。

The the original sin of digital media is John Appready believing he'd go so viral that Facebook would pay him money.

我们所有人谈论的都是视频转型，那就是那个时刻，而它本不会发生。

And we all that's what you're talking about, the pivot to video, that was that moment right there it and was not going to happen.

我认为很多人知道它不会发生，但我们还是都经历了它。

And I think a lot of people knew it wasn't gonna happen and we all lived through it anyway.

在这样一个世界里，你希望品牌成为核心，以实现你所描述的用户获取和订阅获取，但所有平台都希望所有行为都由用户主导，你该如何运作？

How do you operate in a world where you want the brand to be central to do the audience acquisition and the subscriber acquisition you're describing with the methods you're describing, when all of the platforms want all the action to be by the people?

我无法评论当今平台的动机。

I can't speak to the motivation of platforms today.

我认为你说得对，当我还在那两家平台工作时。

I I I think you're correct when I was at both of those platforms.

我看到的是，平台确实非常希望支持出版商。

What I saw is actually a real deep desire to actually support publishers.

但再说一遍，我现在并不在那些公司工作。

But again, don't work at those companies.

我无法评论它们如今的动机。

I can't speak to the motivations of them today.

我认为我们都能清楚地看到他们的动机，那就是

What I can I think we can all see their motivations pretty plainly What

从Puck的角度来看，我并不是想和YouTube竞争。

I I can say is for us from a Puck perspective, I'm I'm not trying to compete with YouTube?

我知道我已经说过，我们不是一个技术平台。

I know I've already said this, that we're not a technology platform.

我们不是一个技术平台。

We're not a technology platform.

我们的重点是报道那些拥有意见精英和高度关注行业动态人群的行业内部故事。

We are focused on covering the stories inside of the industries that have the opinion elite and people that deeply care about what's happening.

这就是我们正在做的，我们确实通过简报以及多种其他营销渠道来分发这些故事。

That is what we are doing and we distribute those stories, yes, through newsletters and then also through a variety other of other marketing channels.

我知道我并没有完全彻底地回答你的问题，但我认为可能

I I know I'm not completely and totally answering your question, but I I think it might be

我觉得你可能是在谈论受众。

I think you're talk might be talking about the audience.

我谈论的是创作内容的人。

I'm talking about the people who make the work.

是的。

Yeah.

对吧？

Right?

还有那些创作内容的人的经济激励。

And the economic incentives of the people who make the work.

我的意思是，你描述的Puck就像是世界上迄今为止最高端的行业通讯合集。

I mean, you're describing Puck is sort of like the fanciest collection of trade publications that has ever existed in the world.

我不知道这是否是人们真正想做的事情。

I don't know if that's how the people I I don't know if that's like what people want to do.

对吧？

Right?

我觉得人们想要的是庞大的受众。

I I think people want big audiences.

我觉得每个记者都希望成为世界上最著名的记者，这很好。

Like I think every reporter wants to be the most famous reporter in the world, and that's great.

我觉得这种动机完全一致：去挖掘独家新闻，吸引关注，写出最好的分析，变得出名，对吧？

Like I I think that is a perfectly aligned incentive with go get scoops, go get attention, write the best analysis, be go be famous, right?

这会让每个人都赚很多钱。

And that's gonna make everybody a lot of money.

为意见精英服务的小型行业垂直媒体集合，与这种影响力截然不同。

Collection of small trade verticals for the opinion elite is very different than that impact.

我认为媒体机构正在失去人才，因为平台的影响力太吸引人了。

And it's I I think media organizations are losing people to platforms because that impact is so alluring.

还有机会做些非新闻类的事情，比如整合品牌营销、做赞助、去上班。

And then the opportunity to do things that are not journalism, to do integrated brand marketing, to do sponsorships, to go on the job.

所有那些我不会让我的人去做的、我自己也不会做的事。

All the stuff I won't let my people do that I won't do.

我甚至都不会听播客广告。

I won't even read the podcast ads.

但这些机会就在那里。

But it's all right there.

对吧？

Right?

可以获得庞大的受众，也能获得丰厚的回报。

Can get the big audience and you can get the big payday.

再说一遍，我只是在为Puck寻找界限。

And again, I'm just trying to find the boundary for Puck.

对吧？

Right?

你其实是在把它做小。

You're you're kinda making it smaller.

我只是想知道，这种规模在所有指标上是否像大平台所宣称的那样具有吸引力、影响力和激励性。

And I'm just wondering if that if that size is as lucrative, as impactful, and as incentivizing across all the metrics as maybe the big platform makes it.

我不太确定，在你们这个圈子里的记者是否真的会被你鼓励去转向平台。

I'm not quite sure if for the journalists in your world, it sounds like you're trying to encourage them to go to the platforms.

我只是在观察我周围正在发生的一切。

I'm just seeing what's happening all around me.

我我

I I

我经营这个新闻编辑部已经十五年了。

I I've run this newsroom for, like, fifteen years.

是的。

Yeah.

你知道，我们在这里卖的就是我们卖的东西。

You know, it's like we we we sell what we sell here.

我的玩笑是，我们卖的是我们的伦理准则，人们正是为此订阅我们。

Like, my joke is that we sell our ethics policy, and that's what people subscribe to us for.

再说一遍，我们就是不做赞助播报。

Like, again, we we just, like, won't do the sponsor reads.

我拒绝做赞助播报，这让我公司的人快疯了。

It drives my company crazy that I won't do the sponsor reads.

所有人都能看到彩虹尽头那个标着‘尼尔做赞助’的金罐子，但我就是不做。

Everyone can see the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow labeled Neil I does a sponsor, but I won't do it.

因为我认为，观众付钱给我们，是因为他们知道你们无法左右我们的新闻编辑部。

Because I think what the audience pays us money for is the fact that you you can't tell my the newsroom what to do.

我愿意相信我的新闻团队已经认同了这一点，而且在这种模式下，经济逻辑也是成立的。

I would like to believe my newsroom has bought into this and then, you know, the economics make sense inside of that.

但你描述的这种以记者为明星的影响力模式，却没有给予他们像网红那样的相应回报。

But you're describing this like talent led journalist as influencers model without the corresponding payoff that the influencers get.

而这正是我所感受到的矛盾，我只是坐在那里思考着。

And that's the that's the tension I'm just I'm just sitting

我非常理解这种矛盾。

I I I appreciate that tension.

一个值得考虑的恰当数据是，我认为你所描述的世界——如果您的听众群体相对年轻——会让人觉得唯一值得追求的职业就是成为网红。

An appropriate stat to to consider because I I I think you're describing a world and and, again, if your listenership is relatively young, it would drive everybody into the only career that they should have is to be an influencer.

而我从根本上不同意这种观点。

And I I I, you know, fundamentally disagree with that.

我知道关于Substack的情况是，其前10%的作者创造了90%的收入。

What I do know of of Substack is that it's about their top 10% of authors make 90 of the revenue.

但我想让每个人都听到这一点。

So but but I want everyone to hear that.

你所描述的这种模式，即每个人都能从这些其他平台获得巨额收入，实际上只有前10%的作者获得了90%的收入。

The the model that you are describing that everyone is, like, getting massive paydays from these other platforms, the top 10% are making 90% of the revenue.

我们提供的是一个平台——用引号说，不是技术平台，而是一家支持记者的公司。

What we provide is a platform in quotes, not a technology platform, but a company that does support journalists.

是的，我会说记者是最初的网红，但网红通常只是拿出手机，随便拍点内容。

And yes, I would say that journalists are the original influencers, but influencers oftentimes just pop up a phone and make content about anything.

新闻业是一项根本不同的职业。

Journalism is a fundamentally different profession.

你从伦理、事实核查、法律角度提出了观点——知道如果你写了一篇文章，有人会来找你麻烦，而你有法律支持，这些在新闻业中都很重要。

You you make the point from an ethics perspective, from a fact checking perspective, from a legal perspective, knowing that if you write a story and somebody else comes after you and that you have legal support, those things matter in journalism.

除了能够实现受众增长，这也是公司的核心重点之一：实现商业增长，通过你参与的活动、你吸引的订阅者获得收入，我认为这绝非小事。

And that, in addition to being able to have audience growth, that is a core focus of the company, being able to have commercial growth, being able to get paid for the events that you are a part of for the subscribers that you are bringing in, I don't think is small.

我实际上觉得这非常令人兴奋，而且潜力巨大。

I actually think it is quite exciting and can be quite large.

当你提到各个类别时，是的，在Puck内部，Air Mail 稍微有些不同。

When you when you say the if you look at the various categories, yeah, within Puck, air mail is a little bit different.

我认为，这种推动文化优势的品牌就是Puck，它通过每个由我们的核心人才主导的行业或领域来体现专业优势，这些人才在讲述故事、报道这些行业核心企业以及决策者们的动态。

That's sort of the I think that the brand that that drives cultural advantage, and I think Puck is the brand that drives professional advantage because it does go through each of these categories or industries that are anchored by our lead talent and they're telling stories and they're reporting on what's happening, the top of the companies that drive these industries and the people that are making the decisions within it.

但我认为，这些行业本身没有一个是微不足道的，我确信Puck的组合不仅仅关注各个独立行业，更关注这些领域之间权力与决策的互动与交汇。

But I don't think any of these industries in and of themselves are are small, and I certainly think that the Puck portfolio is one that is not just about the individual industries, but actually about the interplay and the intersection of power and decisions occur across each of those franchises.

这正是Puck作为品牌所独有的价值主张，而这一点也得到了我们人才的强力支持。

And that's also the unique value proposition that Puck as a brand brings, and that is very much supported by our talent.

我依然为这一点感到无比自豪。

And I continue to be incredibly proud of the fact.

我理解品牌与人才之间的张力，但我内心并不感受到这种张力。

I appreciate the tension between brand and talent, but I don't feel that tension internally.

我认为我们既是品牌，也是支持人才的公司，帮助他们能够专注于本职工作——进行报道。

I feel like we are brand and a company that supports talent so that they can they can do they they can do their job, which is to report.

你提到Air Mail有点不同。

You you mentioned Air Mail is a little different.

Air Mail到底哪里不同？

How is Air Mail a little different?

它并不专注于行业内的专业人士。

It is not focused on the professionals inside of an industry.

但Puck会报道时尚产业、经济领域等业务，面向那些身处这些行业或对这些领域充满好奇的专业人士。

It is, because Puck will report on, you know, again, the business of fashion, the business of our economics, things like that for the professionals that ultimately are in those spaces and or those that are very curious, across those industries.

从文化优势的角度来看，Air Mail报道的是风格、时尚和健康。

Air Mail, from a cultural advantage perspective, is reporting on style, fashion, wellness.

它以全球视角报道世界正在发生的事情，其受众群体无疑是意见精英和知识好奇心强的人群，但更偏向B2C（企业对消费者）模式，而非B2P（企业对专业人士）模式。

It has a global perspective on what is happening in the world, and that audience base is, certainly opinion elite, intellectually curious, but it's less of a a b to p, a business to professional offering and more of a b to c, a business to consumer offering.

因此，从投资理念的角度来看，这具有极大的合理性。

And that was one of the reasons why from an investment thesis perspective, it made so much sense.

尽管两者受众都非常富裕且地位显赫，但我们的受众重叠率还不到6%，整体重叠非常有限。

We had less than like 6% audience overlap even though both very affluent and elite audiences, but very limited in terms of overlap overall.

因此，它为我们的产品组合增添了一项绝佳的补充。

And so it's a it's a a awesome add to the portfolio.

所以Puck是——你的意思是，你这样描述它。

So Puck is I mean, you're describing it this way.

Puck 是一系列人们愿意支付高价订阅的行业刊物。

Puck is a collection of trade publications that people will pay high rates for.

这其中蕴含着巨大的价值。

There's a lot of value in that.

我非常喜欢优秀的行业刊物。

I I love a good trade publication.

我就不一一列举我所有的最爱了，但确实有一些非常小众、高度聚焦的行业刊物，我认为可能是整个行业里最好的。

I can I won't rattle off all my favorites, but there are some very small, very focused trade publications that I think are maybe the best in the entire industry?

Air Mail 不是那样的。

Air Mail is not that.

Air Mail 就像一本高端的文化杂志，你知道，它叫 Air Mail，是因为我觉得它原本是设计在飞机上阅读的。

Air Mail is like a big fancy culture magazine for you know, it's called Air Mail because I I think it was meant to be read on airplanes.

在头等舱的飞机上，这种类型的杂志确实有一席之地。

There is like a a moment for that kind of magazine to exist in first class in airplane.

你们是在试图在两者之间转移读者群体吗？

Are you trying to move audience between them?

你们这里缺少的是一个捆绑套餐。

The thing you don't have here is a bundle.

对吧？

Right?

你们拥有的是一系列独立的通讯简报，但无法将它们全部打包，说：这就是我们提供的全部价值。

You have a collection of individual newsletters and you can't actually bundle them all up and say, here's the whole stack of value we provide.

你们如何在彼此之间可能没有重叠的各个行业出版物之间转移受众，再从这些出版物转向Air Mail——一本精美的文化杂志？

How do you move audience between individual trade publications where there might not be overlap, and then from that world to Air Mail, which is a glossy culture magazine.

在Puck这边，我们实际上提供的是：订阅Puck即可获得所有那些通过Puck自然发展起来或我们收购并推出的独立栏目和类别内容。

On the Puck side, we actually do like, a Puck subscription gets you access to, each of the individual franchise and categories that organically came up through through Puck or that we've acquired and launched.

在Air Mail这边，你说得对，目前它是一个独立的订阅服务，我们正在规划产品路线图，以确定究竟该推出什么样的捆绑方案或试用方案，这些工作都在进行中。

On the Air Mail side, you're right that currently it's a separate subscription and we're working through the product roadmap to figure out what the essentially what the the either bundle offering is, the sample offering, those are are all underway.

所以，大概在未来几个月内，你们会看到我们在这一方面有更多进展。

So probably within the next few months, so you'll see more from us on that side.

最后几个问题。

Last few questions.

我们时间快用完了。

We're running out of time.

谢谢你如此慷慨。

Thank you for being so generous.

你们现在盈利了吗？

Are you are you profitable right now?

我们非常接近盈利了。

We are very close to profitable.

差一美元，还是差一百万美元？

Like, a dollar away or, like, a million dollars away?

我不会回答这个问题，但我们非常接近盈利了。

I'm not gonna answer that question, but we're very close to profitable.

我对我们的运营杠杆率也感到非常乐观。

I feel very good about our operating leverage as well.

实现盈利还需要多长时间？

What's the what's the runway to being profitable?

我不会回答那个问题，但我对我们目前的状况以及今年将要交付的东西感到非常乐观。

I'm not gonna answer that question, but I feel really good about our, where where we are are at and, what we will deliver this year.

我问盈利问题的原因是，盈利通常能让你推动增长，或者你可以选择不盈利，从而推动更大的增长。

The reason I asked about profitability is profitability is usually what allows you to drive growth, or you can choose to be really unprofitable and drive a lot more growth.

你们在考虑更多的收购吗？

Are you looking at more acquisitions?

你们在考虑被收购吗？

Are you looking to be acquired?

这对你们来说会如何运作？

How does this how does this gonna work for you?

关于收购方面，嗯，从增长角度来看，我觉得有必要明确一下。

On the acquisition side, so well, one on the growth side, I I think it's just good to state.

在增长方面，总收入去年增长了40%。

So for growth, total revenue, we grew at 40% last year.

广告收入方面，我们的增长超过了35%。

Ads, we grew at over 35% sub revenue.

我们的增长率超过了50%。

We grew at over 50%.

当我们审视固定成本与经常性收入的比例时，我们的状况非常稳健；同时，我们也关注人均收入，以此评估组织是否精简高效，并推动运营卓越。

And when we look at our fixed cost to recurring revenue, we're in a really solid place and we also look at revenue per head just to think about structurally whether or not the organization is lean and driving operational excellence.

因此，我认为我们能够在严格控制成本的前提下实现收入增长，从而构建一个长期可扩展的体系，这也是我对今年即将接近盈利这一目标感到乐观的原因。

So so that's I think we're able to drive top line growth with real cost discipline in order to create a system that is is scalable over the course of time, And that's why I feel good about being very close to profitable and the goal of that this year.

关于收购，我们实际上一直在思考哪些品牌能够为整体投资组合带来补充价值。

Related to acquisitions, we we're actually always thinking about various brands that could be additive to the overall portfolio.

正如我之前提到的，我们此前已进行过几次收购式招聘，这些收购式招聘的投资逻辑主要是为了进入新的品类。

As I mentioned before, we've done a a few acqui hires prior to in order and and the investment thesis behind those acqui hires was really to either break into a new category.

例如，我们邀请玛丽·安妮·曼尼克从Substack加入，以切入艺术领域；并通过收购《零售日记》来增强我们对读者和订阅用户的覆盖，特别是劳伦·谢尔曼的线稿系列。

So we did that with Mary Anne Maniker coming over from Substack in order to to break into the business of art through to the acquisition of retail diaries in order to drive more coverage for the the readers and the subscribers that we had with, Lauren Sherman's line sheets.

这些更像是小规模的补充型收购。

So those are more like tuck ins and and smaller acquisitions.

而像《Air Mail》这样的收购则是变革性的，它不仅丰富了我们的整体投资组合，也回应了你之前提到的机遇——即在各个媒体品牌之间实现内容捆绑和读者群体的互通。

And then there are transformational acquisitions like Air Mail where that is additive to the the collective portfolio and to the piece that you were getting at before where we see that there's opportunity certainly for for bundling and for for access of readership across the the various media brands.

我问收购的问题，原因之一是我们正处在一个媒体并购的时代，像那种规模巨大、影响深远的媒体合并。

One of the reasons I asked about acquisitions is we we live in a time of media mergers, like massive earth shattering media mergers.

在收购Air Mail时，我认为你们的股东名单里现在有杰夫·祖克，因为他曾是Air Mail的投资人。

In acquiring Air Mail, I think you have Jeff Zucker on your cap table now because he was an investor in Air Mail.

有传言说他想打造一个大型媒体平台。

There are rumors that he wants to to build a big thing.

他想收购Versant，建立一个通讯社部门，重新运营一个像他在CNN时那样的大型新闻业务。

He wants to buy Versant and have a newsletter division and run a big news operation again like he had at CNN.

你们有没有讨论过这件事？

Is that something you've talked about?

你们会考虑这样的可能性吗？

Is that something you would entertain?

我不会谈论谁在我们的股东名单上。

I'm I'm not gonna talk about who's on our cap table.

好的。

Alright.