Canva首席执行官谈公司向AI企业软件的重大转型

梳理沟通流程是最快、最简单的企业整顿方法之一，能让你的公司重回正轨。

Streamlining your communications can be one of the fastest and easiest ways to get your company back in shape.

Quo表示他们可以帮你做到这一点。

Quo says they can help.

Quo是一款能帮你更高效管理企业的智能工具。

Quo is the smarter way to run your business.

Quo自称是G2平台上评分第一的企业电话系统，累计有超过3000条用户评价，是专门为现代团队的工作模式打造的。

Quo says they're the number one rated business phone system on G2 with over 3,000 reviews, specifically built for how modern teams work.

因此，超过9万家企业——不管是单人创业者还是扩张中的团队，都在靠它维持联络，保持专业形象，还能随时响应客户需求。

That's why more than 90,000 businesses, from solo operators to growing teams rely on to stay connected, professional, and consistently reachable.

用了Quo，你整个团队都能通过同一个共享号码处理所有来电和短信。

With Quo, your entire team can handle calls and texts from one shared number.

再也不会漏掉消息，也不会出现沟通断档的情况。

No more missed messages or disconnected conversations.

所有人都能看到完整的对话记录，回复效率更高，客户也能实实在在感受到被用心对待。

Everyone sees the full thread, making replies faster, and customers feel genuinely cared for.

从这个季度开始，别再错过任何机会，别再流失任何客户。

Make this the season where no opportunity no customer slips away.

前往quo.com/decoder，就能免费试用Quo，还能享受前六个月八折优惠。

Try Quo for free, plus get 20% off your first six months when you go to quo.com/decoder.

记住，是quo.com/decoder。

That's quo.com/decoder.

Quo，智能助力企业发展。

Quo.

再也不会漏掉任何一通来电

No miss No miss calls.

再也不会错失任何一位客户

No miss customers.

本期节目由Framer赞助播出

Support for the show comes from Framer.

一个合格的网站理应能助力业务增长

A website should help your business grow.

但要是你的网站出了点小纰漏，业务增长就会受拖累。

However, small mistakes on your website will slow you down.

所以如果你觉得维护自己的官网比预想的麻烦太多，那一定要试试Framer。

So if updates to your.com feel harder than they should, try out Framer.

Framer是一款适合企业级使用的无代码建站工具，像Perplexity和Miro这类公司的团队都在用它来提升工作效率。

Framer is an enterprise grade, no code website builder used by teams at companies like Perplexity and Miro to move faster.

它支持实时协作，还有功能强大的内容管理系统，能帮你的设计师和营销人员从接手第一天起，就全权打造并运营好官网，把价值拉满。

With real time collaboration and a robust CMS, your designers and marketers are empowered to build and maximize your.com from day one.

不管你是要全新搭建一个网站、测试几个落地页，还是要给整个平台做网站迁移，Framer都为初创公司、成长期企业和大型企业准备了配套方案，能让你从想法构思到网站上线的全过程变得既简单又高效。

So whether you want to launch a new site, test a few landing pages, or migrateyourfull.com, Framer has programs for startups, scaleups, and large enterprises to make going from idea to live site as easy and fast as possible.

想要解锁viewer.com的更多潜能？你可以咨询Framer的专业人员，也可以现在就免费开始搭建，访问framer.com/decoder，就能以30%的折扣购买Framer Pro的年度套餐。

Learn how you can get more out of viewer.com from a Framer specialist or get started building for free today at framer.com/decoder for 30% off of Framer Pro annual plan.

记住，访问framer.com/decoder就能享受七折优惠。

That's framer.com/decoder for 30% off.

framer.com/decoder

Framer.com/decoder.

优惠活动可能有适用规则和限制。

Rules and restrictions may apply.

本期节目由Upwork赞助播出。

Support for the show comes from Upwork.

成功的关键往往在于，你得清楚什么时候该把工作交出去、交给谁。

The key to success often comes down to knowing when to delegate and to whom.

这时候Upwork就能帮上忙了。

That's where Upwork comes in.

如今已有数千家成长型企业选择用Upwork招聘灵活优质的自由职业人才，不管是一次性的项目，还是长期的服务需求，都能搞定。

Thousands of growing businesses already trust Upwork to hire flexible, high quality freelance talent for everything from one off projects to ongoing support.

你可以直接浏览候选人的资料、查看过往作品，还能获得帮你梳理岗位要求的协助，完全可以放心招人，立刻上手推进工作。

You can browse profiles, review past work, and get help scoping the role so you can hire with confidence and get started.

而且效率极高。

Quickly.

Upwork还能帮你省去大量运营杂事，合同、付款这些流程全都能在一个平台上处理，你就能把更多精力用在打理自己的业务上。

Upwork also cuts down operational hassle by handling things like contracts and payments in one place, so you can spend more time running your business.

Upwork的基础使用是免费的，如果你升级到Upwork商业增强版，还能解锁平台上前1%的顶尖人才资源。

Upwork is free to use, but if you decide to upgrade to Upwork Business Plus, you'll get access to the top 1% of talent on Upwork.

再加上AI智能筛选功能，不到6小时就能为你匹配到最合适的 freelancer（自由职业者）。

And with AI powered shortlisting, you'll get matched to the right freelancer in under six hours.

现在就访问upwork.com，免费发布你的招工需求吧。

Visit upwork.com right now and post your job for free.

记住是upwork.com，在这里就能对接顶尖人才，助力你的业务发展。

That is upwork.com to connect with top talent ready to help your business grow.

欢迎访问upwork.com

That's upwork.com.

upwork.com，记住这个网址

Upwork.com.

本期节目同样得到Shopify的赞助支持

Support for this show comes from Shopify.

所有蓬勃发展的成功企业，都是从小起步的

Every thriving successful business has to start somewhere.

起步的话不妨先思考一个很简单的问题。

A good place to start is a relatively simple question.

如果有了趁手的工具，我全力投入这件事的话，会闯出什么名堂？

What if, given the right tools, I really put my all into this?

而Shopify就是一款能帮你把刚起步的小生意推上新台阶的工具。

One tool that can help grow your sprouting business to new heights is Shopify.

全球有数百万商家都在靠Shopify做电商生意。

Millions of businesses around the world rely on Shopify for e commerce.

Shopify提供了一大堆实用工具，从支付处理、数据分析到网站搭建，你都能用得上。

They offer a host of helpful tools you can take advantage of, from payment processing to analytics to website design.

它的设计工作室里有几百套模板，帮你做出心里预想的那款专属企业网站。

Their design studio includes hundreds of templates to help you create the exact website you've been envisioning for your business.

可能有人会问，那我要是遇到问题需要帮忙怎么办？

If you're wondering, what if I need help?

完全不用担心，你绝对不会孤立无援，什么都得靠自己折腾。

Then no worries, because you're never left to fend for yourself.

Shopify 的客户支持拿过奖，24 小时全天候在线。

Shopify's award winning customer support is available 247.

现在就用 Shopify，把那些‘如果’变成实实在在的事业吧。

It's time to turn those what ifs into a thriving business with Shopify today.

今天就去 shopify.com/decoder 注册，每月仅需 1 美元试用。

Sign up for your $1 per month trial today at shopify.com/decoder.

去 shopify.com/decoder 就行。

Go to shopify.com/decoder.

就是 shopify.com/decoder。

That's shopify.com/decoder.

欢迎回来。

Welcome back.

我正在和 Canva 的首席执行官梅兰妮·珀金斯聊天。

I'm talking with Canva CEO, Melanie Perkins.

我特别想知道，Canva 大力推 AI 之后，她的决策方式有没有变化？

And I had to know, has Canva's big AI push changed how she makes decisions?

既然你已经聊了不少Canva内部的使用场景，那我觉得可以开始问咱们《解码器》的固定问题了。

I feel like it's time for the Decoder questions because you've talked about how much you use Canva internally.

上次我问你都是怎么做决策的，你说你们有一套叫“决策幻灯片”的流程，就是用Canva做文档，把所有利弊都列出来，还会把产品原型做出来。

The last time I asked you how you make decisions, you said you had a process called decision decks where you literally made Canva documents with all the pros and cons and you mocked up the products.

现在这套流程还在用吗？

Is that still the process?

对啊，一直都在用。

That is still the process.

原型制作现在已经是整个流程里非常核心的一环了

Prototyping has become a very key part of it.

现在不管要推出什么项目，在正式上线前基本都会先做出一个能用的原型

Often now there's like a workable prototype before anything gets launched.

我觉得特别有意思的一点是——哦对了，不知道我之前有没有跟你提过那套复杂决策框架？

I think the really fun thing about I don't know if I talked to you about the complex decision making framework.

没提过，这是第一次听说

No, this is new.

这我真是第一次听说。

This is definitely new.

行。

Okay.

那这套方法分享给所有需要做复杂决策的人吧，我个人觉得它特别好用。

Well, this for anyone that needs to make complex decisions, I find this extremely helpful.

就是把问题拆解开：先理清楚目标是什么，再列出来有哪些可行的选项，最后逐个分析每个选项的优缺点。

It's like splitting it out into like what are the goals, then what are the options, what are the pros and cons for each of the options.

这个方法用起来特别有意思，现在我们Canva里都做了这个复杂决策框架的现成模板了

But it's really fun because like now we have a template inside Canva, which is the complex decision making framework doc.

你直接用Canva AI的语音输入功能口述内容就行，系统会自动把内容填到模板里

And you can literally just dictate using dictation through Canva AI, and it will actually go and fill out this template.

现在有很多特别棒的功能，能帮你把脑子里的想法整理提炼出来，变成所有人都能看懂的内容，这其实就是设计的核心意义嘛

So there's a lot of really exciting ways of how you can take your ideas and the thoughts in your head and then have that distilled in a way that other people can see and understand, which I guess is the essence of design.

以前大家可能会觉得设计就是把东西做的好看，但实际上设计是用来把想法表达清楚、高效传递给别人，还要把脑子里的想法落地成真的

Like if you think about design in the sense of it previously, you know, design can sometimes be thought of as like making things look pretty, but really design is about expressing ideas and being able to communicate that effectively and being able to turn something from an idea into reality.

所以我们觉得这些新工具真的能很好地推动这一点。

And so we think all these new tools really help to facilitate that.

我经常用 Canva Code。

I use Canva code all the time.

以前我老做原型图，现在我用 Canva Code 把每个想法都快速变成原型，这太强大了，能让想法走得更远。

I used to do a lot of mock ups and now I use Canva code to create prototypes all the time for every idea that I have, which is pretty powerful because it it takes the idea far further than it could before.

上次我问你结构的时候，还顺带问了另一个 Decoder 的问题，就是公司是怎么组织的。

The last time I asked you about structure, I asked the other Decoder question is how the companies are structured.

上次你说公司大概有四千五百人，结构是高度集中的产品团队，再加上一大堆本地团队。

Last time you were about 4,500 people and you described your structure as a very centralized product team and then lots and lots of local teams.

你当时打了个比方，说像一个纸杯蛋糕。

And the metaphor you used was a cupcake.

你说产品团队负责做蛋糕本身，把蛋糕做得越来越大，本地团队则负责裱花。

And you said we work on the cupcake and we make the cupcake bigger and all the local teams work on the icing.

现在这个比喻还适用吗？

Is that still a metaphor?

是的，这个比喻挺贴切的。

Yeah, that's a fair metaphor.

这个说法已经流传很久了。

That one's been around for a while.

蛋糕配奶油这个说法，其实能用在很多不同的场景里。

The cupcake and the icing is actually so applicable in so many different ways.

那些小而自主的团队，才是我们真正把事情做成的核心。

These small empowered teams is really at the essence of how we get things done.

我们的结构非常以目标为导向。

We're very much a goal oriented structure.

比如在做Canva AI 2.0的时候，我们把公司上下所有人都动员起来，就为了把这个产品推出来。

So for example, with Canva AI two point zero, we really brought everyone together across the company to achieve that goal and bring Canva AI two point zero out into the world.

我们每周都会搞展示会，让大家互相分享，深入了解彼此在做什么。

We do show and tells every week so everyone can share and get deep context on what's happening.

我觉得过去十年里，我们能做成任何事，根本就在于目标驱动。

I think that goals has really been at the essence of how we've achieved anything over the last decade.

我们得先凝聚在共同目标下，再灵活组建不同团队来完成任务，就是这样运作的

It's like being able to rally around goals and have different team formations in order to achieve that.

Canva现在一共有多少员工啊？

How many people is Canva now?

哦，最新的数据是差不多五千人

Oh, latest stat of about 5,000.

原来如此，你们一直在扩张壮大啊

Okay, so you've been growing.

那我特别好奇，在刚才说的这种决策模式和团队架构下，你们是怎么敲定要做Canva 2.0、还要全力投入AI方向的？

I'm really curious about just in that context, decisions and structure, how you made the decision to say, okay, we're gonna do Canva two point zero and we're gonna lean heavily into AI the way that we're gonna lean into AI.

是吧？

Right?

要调动这么多人，这绝对是个重大决策。

That's a lot of people, it's a big decision.

我猜当时肯定也做了决策汇报用的PPT吧？

I imagine that there was a decision making slide or a deck.

那感觉这本质上就是个自上而下拍板的决定了

And then this feels like it sort of inherently is a top down decision.

就是全公司都得朝这个方向干

Like we're all doing this.

就像梅勒妮说的，所有人都得跟上，你跟我说说当时是怎么定这个决定的，还有为了推进这件事，你们有没有对公司架构做什么调整

Like Melanie says, we're all doing this, we're all doing Walk me through that decision and walk me through any structure changes you had to make in order to accomplish it.

对，完全是这么回事

Yeah, absolutely.

那我带大家回到2011年吧，当时我们有一份演示文稿，那时候Canva还不叫这个名字，它的项目名是Candace Chef。

So I'm going to take us back to 2011 and to a deck that we had which was called Candace Chef before Canva was even called Canva.

你打开这份文稿的第一页，上面写着：「今天你想创作点什么？」

And when you The first slide when you go into it, it's like, What do you wanna chef up today?

然后你可以在搜索框里输入内容，最初的设想就是你想搜什么都能搜，之后就能直接进入编辑器，还可以和别人协作，里面也有全套编辑工具。

Or how And then you could type into a search box and the idea was you could type whatever you wanted and then you'd pop into the editor and you could collaborate and you could have the editing tools.

等我之后把这份老文稿发给你们看，你们肯定会惊讶，它和我们现在要推出的新产品思路居然出奇地像。

If we share it with you after this, you'll see it's like bizarrely similar to what we're launching today.

所以说这个其实是我们藏了很久的梦想，只是之前技术上一直没法实现，难度太大了。

So I guess this has been the dream for a really long time, but the technical ability to do this has been been hard.

我记得2017年的时候，我们出过一份内部文档，

I'd say in 2017, we had this document.

名字叫《变聪明》。

We called it Getting Smart.

当时我们就畅想，很久很久以后的未来，设计会变成以搜索为核心的模式，不用再像去自助餐厅一样挑素材，所有操作都能实时完成。

And we're like, in the future, future, future there's going to be search driven design rather than going to the buffet and getting something that will be able to happen on the fly.

就像厨师用各种原材料下厨做菜一样。

Like a chef cooking something up from the raw ingredients.

而现在我们终于能真正实现这个设想了。

And now it feels like we can actually do that.

早在去年十月的时候，其实我们已经在这个领域钻研了好几年。

Back in October, we like we'd been researching into this space for some years.

当时出现的那个基础模型是个重大突破，那个设计领域的基础模型，就是最关键的核心转折点。

The foundational model that was a huge step, the design foundational model that was a huge key piece.

但到了十月，公司有了重大突破，我们终于能把它做出来了。

But then in October there was a significant breakthrough in the company that meant that we could actually do it.

一看到这个进展，我们都惊呆了：天啊，这简直太激动人心了，Canva能因此打开的局面简直不可限量。

So as soon as we saw that, we were all like, oh my goodness, this is really exciting and groundbreaking for what Canva can unlock.

从那时起，我们彻底全身心投入，意识到这项技术必须推到极致——这正是我们今天要发布的成果。

And so that was when we really started to go all in and realized that that technology needed to be pushed as far as it could go, which is what we're launching today.

你们发邮件通知了吗？

Did send out an email?

有没有发个Canva文档，直接说：这事定了，就这么干？

Did you send out like a Canva doc being like, we're doing this now, decision made.

具体是怎么操作的？

How did that work?

这是个好问题。

That is a great question.

其实当时已经有个团队在做这件事了，后来我们又大力加强了这个团队。

How did we So there was a team working on it already and then we really bolstered up that team.

那之后我们就一致决定，得把所有能帮上忙的人都拉进这个项目里，把这个东西做出来。

So then we were like, okay, we need to get every single person that can possibly help bring this to life onto the project.

我们开起了每周进度分享会，还把这支团队整合成了一个集中管理的人工智能团队，规模从最初的小队伍扩张到了好几百人，就为了把这个项目落地。

And we started the weekly show and tells and we turned it into a more of a centralized AI team within hundreds of people that went from a smaller team to then many hundreds of people to bring it to life.

大家分头负责不同模块，就像一支交响乐团里各司其职的乐手一样。

Everyone working on the different parts that needed to become part of this orchestra.

没错。

Yeah.

对，我也挺好奇的。

Yeah, I'm curious.

感觉团队协作的这块架构设计特别有意思，你说是不是？

Like that part, that structure part seems really interesting to me, right?

我们现在用的软件工具就是那种很常规的固定流程工具，里面有下拉选择框、输入框这些基础功能。

We have a software tool, you know, standard sort of deterministic software tool with a select box and a text arrow, all that stuff.

接下来我们打算做一个能操控这套工具的人工智能。

And we're gonna build an AI that can use that tool.

现在我们得把手里所有的工程师都调来攻克这个难题。

Now we've got to take all the engineers we had and point them at that problem.

那你们当时是重新调整了产品团队，还是直接扩招了呢？

Did you have to rethink your product team or did you just make it bigger?

就是负责这块业务的那个团队？

The team that was working on that part?

其实两方面都做了点调整。

I think a little bit of both.

等团队取得这个重大突破，大家亲眼看到它实际跑起来的时候，所有人都惊叹：我的天，这是全世界最酷的东西了。

Like, once the team had this big breakthrough, then and we and we all saw it in action, we're my goodness, this is the coolest thing ever.

接着我们就得琢磨，公司里还有哪些人能过来搭把手。

And then we had to figure out, like, who could actually help from across the company.

我之前提到的那个目标导向的架构，说的就是这个意思：一旦定下目标，你就得先理清哪些人能帮你把这个项目落地，然后通过我们搞的每周进度分享会，让所有人都清楚项目的整体进展，所有需要协调的板块也都能对齐。

And I think that's the goal oriented structure I was meaning before is that I was mentioning before is that when there's a goal then you need to figure out like who are the people that can help bring this to life and then everyone that's what then we were doing the weekly show and tell so everyone can get a really clear understanding of like where everything is at, all the pieces that needed to be orchestrated to come together.

好在Canva本身就兼容各类生态，很多相关功能其实早就开发好了，最后才能这么顺畅地整合到一起，效果特别惊艳。

I think Canva already being interoperable meant that there was a lot of these things that had already been built and that then could just come together in an exciting way.

我们搞一个叫‘卷心菜拼图’的玩法。

We do something called the cabbage jigsaw.

从最早期开始，我们就一直在玩各种版本的‘卷心菜拼图’，其实就是先定个目标，然后拆出一堆独立的任务，各自去搞定，最后拼成完整的东西。

We've been doing different variations of the cabbage jigsaw since the earliest days, which is like, it's often a goal and then all the pieces that need to be worked on independently to be able to bring that to life.

这次项目的核心，恰恰又是这么回事。

And that was exactly what we had at the center of this project again.

你本质上就是个软件公司的CEO。

You're fundamentally the software CEO.

这说法挺公道的。

I think that's a fair description.

你就是做软件的。

I think you make software.

软件开发这行，现在好像正经历一场存在主义危机。

The nature of software development itself seems to be going under some kind of existential crisis.

我们Version Vox Media的一个设计师说，现在的软件开发，其实就是不断跟数据库对齐，边聊边试，看能冒出啥结果。

One of our designers here at The Version Vox Media described all software development now is calibrating yourself to a database and just like talking and seeing what happens.

这可能会让你脑子变成一坨浆糊。

And maybe that'll turn your brain to mush.

你们做Canva的时候，用Claude Code或者Codex多吗？好像其他公司都在拼命用这些工具。

Are you using as much Claude Code or Codex to make Canva as it it seems like every other company is racing to do?

是的。

Yeah.

我确实大量使用Canva Code，主要是因为，当我觉得……

So I use Canva Code really extensively from the perspective of, When like

你说的Canva Code，是你们自己开发的编程工具吧？

you say Canva Code, that's your own coding product.

你不是在用Claude Code或者……

You're not using Claude code or

因为它太好用了。

Because it's so cool.

现在呢，我以前老是做原型，但现在不用了。

So what you can do, like, now like, rather I used to create mock ups all the time.

以前不管我冒出什么新想法，首先都会做个原型图出来。

Like, anytime I had an idea, I'd, like, create a mock up.

但现在有了想法，我直接用Canva Code就能搞定。

And now anytime I have an idea, I can use Canva code.

尤其是这次更新之后，你甚至能直接在里面编辑文字内容。

But with this latest release, you can actually go in and edit the text.

也就是说你写完代码之后，还能改文字、拖放元素，随便调整页面里的所有内容。

So you can actually code something, you can edit the text, you can drag and drop, you can move things around.

对的。

Yeah.

我们在AI领域投入了大量资源，也一直在提升团队的技术能力。

We've been really investing heavily on the AI front and upskilling our team.

所以说

So

那你能用Canva Code做出Canva本身吗？

So can you make Canva with Canva code?

没错。

Yeah.

我们确实用Canva代码开发Canva本身，只不过那个版本还没有正式上线。

We do make Canva with Canva code, not deployed.

我们有很多厉害的工程师负责把成品打磨好，推送给几亿用户，但我们内部一直用它来做原型开发。

We have many incredible engineers that actually make it sound to go out to hundreds of millions of people, but we we use it for prototyping all the time.

原来是这样。

Yeah.

我想问的核心其实是这类人才相关的问题，你们是怎么规划这部分人力成本的？

I think that's the the question I'm asking is more about those folks and how you think about the costs associated with those folks.

现在软件工程的行业性质正在发生重大转变，尤其是各类编码工具普及后，变化特别大。

Like, the nature of software engineering is changing in some big meaningful way due to the in particular, the coding tools that are available.

你们在更新Canva的各个版本时，有没有重新梳理过公司内部的相关工作模式？

Are you rethinking how that works inside of Canva as you ship new versions of Canva?

毕竟我接触过的其他软件公司CEO，全都对这个变化感到特别震惊，完全跟不上节奏。

Because every other software CEO I talk to is their their minds are exploding.

他们都摸不准这事最终会怎么发展，但都清楚行业格局会彻底改写，再也回不去了。

They don't quite know how it's gonna go, but they know it's definitely gonna change forever.

我们一直砸了很多资源在一件事上，那就是持续帮团队和整套体系升级能力。

I think one of the things that we've invested really heavily in is continuously upskilling our team and systems.

所以我们是有意规划好，让全团队都能用上所有最先进、最顶尖的工具。

So we've taken a very intentional approach to give all of our team access to all of the latest and greatest tools.

而且我们没有死抱着某一款工具不放。

So we actually have not selected a winner.

我们给团队开放了所有工具权限

We have just given them everything.

这是我们刻意规划的，因为我们希望所有人都能用上最新最好的工具，随时提升自己的技能

And it's been very intentional because we want everyone to be playing with the latest and greatest and to be upskilling all the time.

不管是员工个人，还是我们的整套系统，都得不断迭代升级

We need to be upskilling each one of us every one of our systems.

我们必须持续提升能力，毕竟现在打造产品的方式和以前完全不一样了

We need to be upskilling because the way we build product is completely different today.

现在我们的质量检测流程也和以前完全不一样了。

The way we do QA is completely different today.

公司里的每一套体系、每一套流程，都必须完成原生AI转型，无一例外。

The way we do actually every system and process inside the company has had to have like an AI native transformation.

公司里的所有岗位职能，全部都要完成原生AI转型。

And so there's every specialty inside the company has had to have an AI native transformation.

不管是设计师还是工程师，公司里每一个岗位的工作内容都变了。

What a designer does today, what an engineer does today across every single part of the company.

所以我们在工具配套、给团队留出时间、专业能力培养这些方面投入了特别大的精力。

So it's been a huge area of investment on the tooling, on giving our team time, on the specialties.

我们先是主推‘全面布局AI’，之后是‘AI赋能业务’，现在又提出‘原生AI架构’，就是想在这个AI时代把所有事情都重新梳理一遍。

We've had this focus on AI everywhere and then AI Impact and now AI Native because we really want to be rethinking everything in this AI era.

产品经理、设计师和工程师之间的权责正在重新划分，现在大家都能接手一部分原本属于对方的工作了。

There's some sort of rebalancing of power between product managers, designers and engineers because them all do each other's jobs.

那Canva内部在这个问题上是怎么处理的呢？

Where have you landed on that inside of Canva?

其实我觉得，我们所有人聚在这儿，都是为了打造出最好的产品体验。

I think, you know, we're all here to build the best experience we can.

而且我一直觉得，死守着自己那点专业壁垒，从来就不是打造好产品的正确方式。

And, you know, I think having really solid expertise is it's never been the best way to build product.

实际上，产品经理经常会主动站在设计师的角度思考问题。

In fact, PMs often think about the design perspective.

厉害的工程师也常常会从设计视角出发考虑问题。

Great engineers often think about things from a design perspective.

说白了，核心就是团队里所有人都朝着一个目标使劲，打造出最棒的产品。

So really, it's about the team that are, like, there to, like, just create the best thing possible.

之前大家各守各的一亩三分地，还说什么‘这是我的地盘’，那种模式从一开始就根本做不出好产品。

And having people in their separate siloed isolated lanes and say like, that's my territory, was never a great way to build product.

而AI的出现，刚好把这种打破边界的趋势推得更远了。

And so I think that with AI, it's really leaning further into that.

现在所有人都在同一件事上动脑筋：我们到底能打造出什么样的最优产品体验？

It's like everyone thinking about like what is the best product experience that we can build.

大家各自都有不同的本事能拿出来用

Everyone will bring different skills to the floor.

比方说设计师肯定有自己的专长，产品经理、工程师也都各有擅长的领域

So a designer will obviously have a certain expertise, PM will have certain expertise, an engineer will have certain expertise.

但我们一直都把这件事当成团队协作的任务——哪个想法最好就用哪个，所有人都得齐心合力，才能给我们的用户群体交出最棒的成果

But we've always thought of it as a bit of a team sport where the best idea should be winning and everyone should be collaborating to create the best outcome that they possibly can for our community.

我现在明白为什么你会做出这样的选择，也懂这套AI的正向发展逻辑了

So I understand that this sort of positive case for AI, why you made the decision.

我明白产品的宣传卖点是，你只要告诉这个AI工具想做什么，它就能先生成第一版草稿，你再结合手里的数据接着完善就行。

I understand that the product promise of just tell this box what to make and it will make you a first draft and you can go on from there based on the data you have.

但AI有个很严重的弊端，尤其会对品牌形象产生负面影响。

There's a pretty significant downside to AI is particularly as it relates to brand.

至少在美国这边，民调显示大众对AI的观感普遍很差。

Like there's polling here in The United States at least that basically is just bad vibes around AI.

我们反复提到的最新NBC新闻民调里，AI的好感度比冰块还低，只比伊朗战争的观感好一点。

Like the last NBC news poll that we are constantly citing is AI is polling under ice in terms of favorability and just above the war in Iran.

AI这个概念的风评实在太差了，大众好感度低得离谱。

That's not a great place for AI to be as a concept that as favorable aren't favorable.

现在很多地方的居民都投票反对在自己社区建数据中心。

People are voting against data centers in their communities.

大家普遍觉得AI会抢走工作，你们这个工具说不定还会让企业裁员——毕竟社交媒团队不用再像以前那样招那么多人了。

AI is widely associated with job loss and maybe now you're gonna cause some enterprise job loss because social media teams don't need to be as big as they needed to be anymore.

现在各行各业的一堆乱象，全都会被甩锅到AI头上。

There's a lot of layouts are being blamed on AI across the board.

你们可凡现在是在大力押注AI，对吧？

You're leaning into AI with Canva, right?

感觉整个产品都在往AI方向重新定位，把AI作为核心卖点了。

They're like you're rebranding the whole product is having AI in it.

那你是怎么看待刚才说的那个负面风险的？毕竟大家现在都不太喜欢AI。

How do you think about that downside risk that people don't like it?

而且大家越接触AI，就越抵触，都喊着‘别搞了，我不想身边有这东西’。

The more they're exposed to it, the more they're saying, wait, stop, I don't want this around me.

我觉得AI其实和任何工具都一样

I think it's kind of like any tool.

它能变成什么样，全看使用者想怎么用它

It will be whatever you want it to be.

要是你想用它来给人赋能、给客户提供更好的服务，或是帮学生拿到优质的学习资料，那它完全能做到这些事

And so if you want it to help empower people, if you want it to help deliver better experiences for your customers, if you want it to uplift students and to give them great quality education materials, it can do that.

而且我觉得

And I think that's

等等，这功能真能实现吗？

Wait, can it do that?

其实我对那个针对学生的方案还是有点拿不准。

I'm actually not so certain about the student thing.

我们推出了一个叫LearnGrid的工具，这个工具能帮全球很多国家生成符合当地课标要求的教学内容。

We launched something called LearnGrid, and LearnGrid enables across many countries to be able to have the curriculum aligned content created.

这些内容可以是练习题，也能提供即时反馈，而且完全免费。

That can be worksheets, that can be immediate feedback, and it's free.

所以我们特别期待能把这些工具送到全球各地的老师和学生手里。

So we're really excited about being able to put these tools in teachers and students' hands around the world.

现在已经有1亿师生在使用Canva了，但能不能用上优质工具这件事，差异其实特别大——比如就看学校本身的资金情况。

We've got 100,000,000 teachers and students using Canva today, but the access to great tools is like very divergent depending on the wealth of a school, for example.

所以我们很高兴能让全球各地的学生都能用得上这些工具。

And so we're really excited about being able to bring that accessibility to students around the world.

原来是这样。

Right.

不过我的疑问其实还是关于AI输出粗制滥造的问题，你懂吧？

But I think my question there is it's more of the slop question, right?

大家现在体验到的AI工具，大多都是免费版ChatGPT，或是谷歌塞给他们的那些AI概览功能——这些功能全都是用成本最低的模型跑出来的，还堆了超大规模的用量。

Like people are experiencing the tools that exist today and maybe mostly they're experiencing the free version of ChatGPT or whatever AI overview Google puts in front of them running on the cheapest possible model at the biggest possible scale.

大家实际用到的就是这类东西。

And they're having these experiences.

我也知道业内总说，大部分人都没用过AI，更别说有人会花钱买AI服务了。

And I know that the industry likes to say most people have never used AI and certainly no one's paying for it.

但ChatGPT的实际用户都有十亿了，那些民调的数据归数据，现实是另一回事。

But like a billion people have used ChatGPT and then the polling is the polling.

我就是有点好奇，你们打算怎么向大家说明这是一款AI产品呢？

I'm just sort of wondering how you're thinking about communicating this is an AI product.

因为在我看来，只要沾上AI这个标签，就会附带一大堆刻板偏见。

Because it to me feels like that comes with all kinds of baggage.

你看OpenAI都收购了W+K了，就是他们自己也觉得在营销上踩了坑。

And I'm watching OpenAI buy TBPN because they think they have a marketing problem.

我发现所有风投都觉得媒体在造谣AI的现状，说AI以后肯定会把一切都往好的方向改变。

I'm watching all the venture capitalists feel like the media is lying about AI and it's gonna change everything for the better.

结果现在你们也急着跟进，说Canva现在也成AI平台了。

And then you're like racing into being like, Canva is AI now.

但我觉得你肯定清楚，一大批设计师肯定会对这个情况非常不满。

And I think you know that a bunch of designers are going to be very unhappy about this.

对吧？

Right?

肯定有人会直接站出来说这不行，说你们把产品给搞砸了。

There are some people who are going to just say, this is bad, they're ruining the product.

我就是好奇你打算怎么平衡好这些状况。

And I'm just wondering how you are thinking about navigating that balance.

我觉得不管什么事儿，大家肯定都各有各的看法。

I think there's going to be a plethora of opinions on any topic.

我们一直以来的做法，都是把用户社群的需求和诉求放在第一位。

What we always do is just like put what our community want and need at the center of it.

其实早就有很多人问过这个问题了，连你自己都特意提过这件事。

So we've had a lot of people asking, even yourself quite specifically.

大家都会说，我都有明确目标了，为什么Canva的AI不能把所有相关信息都摸清楚，帮我写出第一版草稿呢？

You're like, I've got this goal, why can't Canva AI just know everything about it and be able to help me with that first draft?

帮用户实现他们的目标，永远是我们做所有事的核心。

So helping people achieve their goals is always going to be at the centre of what we do.

也正是这个初衷，推着我们做出了这类决策。

And that's exactly what drives these sorts of decisions.

它能帮你省去大量手动排版的麻烦。

It's like being able to take out a lot of the manual work from being able to lay things out.

我们坚信，AI应该加速你的创意和构想，而不是取代它。

So really believe that AI should accelerate your vision and creativity, not override it.

我觉得特别重要的是，AI只是我们工具箱里的一个新工具，用不用、怎么用，都由你说了算。

And I think that's really important that AI is just like another tool in our toolkit and it will help achieve our goals if we choose to use it.

所以在产品设计上，我们一直非常用心。

And so we've been really intentional about the product design.

比如Canva AI是一个独立的标签页。

Like Canva AI is a new tab.

如果你喜欢用模板，进来直接用就行。

So if you just come in and you love templates, you can use that.

如果你偏爱自己动手，从零开始做设计，那也完全没问题。

If you come in and you just love the elements and just like creating things from scratch, that's totally fine.

这完全没问题。

That's totally cool.

如果你想通过语音输入或者打字来表达创意，也完全没问题。

If you wanna be able to express an idea just like by through dictation or through typing, you can do that too.

所以我觉得很关键的一点是，我们得清楚平台上每一位用户，对AI的接受程度和使用熟练度都各不相同。

So So I think it's really important that we understand that every one of our community members is at different stages and different scales of comfort with AI.

我们要做的就是帮所有人都能顺利用上这些功能。

And so want to be making sure that we're helping to facilitate that.

我们是想覆盖所有用户的需求，而且有一点非常重要：Canva绝对不会变成一个单纯的聊天机器人，这是绝不可能的。

So I think this is like the full spectrum and it's really important that Canva isn't turning into a chatbot by any stretch of the imagination.

但如果你想用对话的方式让AI帮你做事，这个功能也完全能用

But if you do want to be able to just chat to something and have it help you out, you can do that too.

所以我们把所有这些需求都兼顾到了

So we are really enabling all of that.

别的公司我不好说，但Canva能有今天，全靠我们超棒的用户社群撑着

I think, you know, I can't speak for other companies out there in the world, but Canva has benefited greatly from an incredible community.

每个月都有2.5亿人在用Canva呢

We've got, you know, quarter billion people that use Canva each month.

大家都特别喜欢我们的产品。

There's a lot of love for our product.

我觉得这份喜爱的根源，就是Canva一直以来都在帮大家把脑子里的创意落地成真。

I And think that that love really comes from being able to have Canva be the thing that helps people to express their ideas and turn that into reality.

我们一直把这份责任看得特别重。

And we take that extremely seriously.

所以我们做所有产品迭代时，都始终把这一点放在核心位置；赋能用户是我们最核心的原则之一，未来大家很快就能亲身感受到，我们的所有功能都围绕这个原则打造。

So with all of these product developments, we are continuing to keep that at our core and empowerment is like such a critical principle for us that is very much through everything that you'll hopefully be seeing and touching very soon.

我们得再短暂休息一下

We've got to take another short break.

一分钟后就回来

We'll be back in just a minute.

本期节目由Rippling赞助播出

Support for this show comes from Rippling.

很多自称“一站式”的应用，其实根本名不副实

Too often, apps that call themselves all in one are far from it.

Rippling就是来解决这个问题的，它能把一切都变得简单很多

Rippling is here to make things a whole lot simpler.

它是一个整合了全球人力资源、薪资计算、IT服务和财务管理的统一平台

It's the unified platform for global HR, payroll, IT, and finance.

有了Rippling，那些原本需要跨好几个工具、跑好几个部门才能做完的流程，现在全都能自动在一个平台里完成

With Rippling, workflows that normally bounce between a handful of tools and departments actually do just happen in one place, automatically.

给你举个例子吧

Here's an example.

比如你的员工要升职了

You have an employee getting promoted.

在Rippling这一个平台上，就能搞定所有事：更新他们的工资税、设置新的应用权限、寄出新的工作设备、发放新的公司卡，还有安排培训课程

Rippling can update their payroll taxes, manage any new app permissions, ship them any new device, issue a new corporate card, and assign trainings all in one platform.

根本不用在好几个软件之间来回切

No jumping between apps.

有了Rippling，你可以把HR、IT和财务所有业务都整合在这上面统一管理，也可以按需选你需要的功能，补上你现有软件体系里的缺口

With Rippling, you can run your entire HR, IT, and finance operations as one, or pick and choose the products that best fill the gaps in your software stack.

如果你或者你的公司想要用一个以人为本的统一平台来支撑公司的核心业务，现在就去 rippling.com/decoder 注册吧。

So if you or your company want to run the backbone of your business on one unified platform with people at the center, head to rippling.com/decoder and sign up today.

别忘了是 rippling.com/decoder，去那里注册就对了。

That's rippling.com/decoder to sign up.

大家好。

Hi.

我是布琳·布朗。

I'm Brene Brown.

我是亚当·格兰特。

And I'm Adam Grant.

今天我们来邀请你收听《好奇心商店》节目。

And we're here to invite you to The Curiosity Shop.

这档播客是一个用来聆听、畅想、思考、感受和提问的空间。

A podcast that's a place for listening, wondering, thinking, feeling, and questioning.

这个节目一定会很有意思。

It's gonna be fun.

我俩很少对所有事都意见一致。

We rarely agree.

但几乎不会有真正合不来的时候，而且我们一直都在互相学习。

But we almost never disagree, and we're always learning.

说得对。

That's true.

大家可以在YouTube订阅《好奇商店》，也可以在你常用的播客平台关注我们，这样每周四的新节目就会自动更新推送给你啦。

You can subscribe to the Curiosity Shop on YouTube or follow in your favorite podcast app to automatically receive new episodes every Thursday.

本期节目由CNN赞助播出

Support for today's show comes from CNN.

你想过长生不老吗？

Do you wanna live forever?

知名记者卡拉·斯维舍深入调查了长寿产业，要揭穿网红炒作的噱头，留下真正有科学依据的内容

Influential journalist Kara Swisher is taking a hard look at the longevity industry to separate the influencer hype from evidence backed science.

在她为CNN打造的全新原创系列节目里，卡拉和硅谷的一众大佬对话，还亲身试用了最新的抗衰老技术，亲测哪些有用、哪些是智商税

In her new CNN Original series, Kara is talking to Silicon Valley power players and trying out the latest in antiaging technology to see what works and what's a waste.

卡拉·斯威舍本人就想长命百岁。

Kara Swisher wants to live forever.

新剧集每周日上线，需要订阅CNN才能观看。

New episodes streaming Sundays with a CNN subscription.

快去cnn.com/subscribe订阅，就能开始看了。

Go to cnn.com/ subscribe to start watching.

嘿。

Hey.

那我们今年就不交税了呗。

So we're not paying taxes this year.

是吧？

Right?

只要五角大楼还通不过哪怕一次正经审计，我们就一分税都不该再交了。

Until the Pentagon passes one damn audit, we shouldn't pay any more taxes.

大家现在都不想交税，就是因为不信政府管钱、花钱的那套做法。

People don't wanna pay taxes anymore because they don't trust the way the government is spending and tracking our money.

美国人早就受够交税了，这我真的懂。

Americans are fed up with paying taxes, and I know.

我太懂了。

I know.

但先听我把话说完。

But hear me out.

盖洛普的民调还有网上的帖子都显示，最近美国人对交税的抵触情绪比之前更强烈了。

Americans are extra fed up with paying taxes lately according to some Gallup polling and some posting.

可咱们这么想是不是目光太短浅了？

But are we being shortsighted?

我觉得有政府管着还是很重要的。

I think that it's important to have a government.

人类试过无政府状态好长时间了，根本行不通。

I think that humans tried anarchy for quite a long time, and it it didn't work so well.

那时候好多人都被人用石头砸死了。

A lot of people got hit over the head with rocks.

经济发展基本就无从谈起了。

We didn't have a whole lot of, economic development.

几乎所有人都认同，美国得有军队来抵御外敌入侵，也得有执法部门、消防部门、学校这些基础设施。

Almost everyone agrees that The United States should have a military to protect it from foreign invasion, that we should have law enforcement, firefighting, schools, etcetera.

今天的《Today Explained》节目，我们就来聊聊反纳税群体，以及这件事未来可能的走向，本节目工作日下午更新。

Anti taxers and where this could all be heading on Today Explained, dropping every weekday afternoon.

欢迎回来继续收听。

Welcome back.

今天我和Canva的首席执行官梅勒妮·帕金斯聊了聊，现在用人工智能做自动化营销有多离谱。

I'm talking with Canva CEO, Melanie Perkins, about how weird it is to do automated marketing with AI right now.

那我来问问你关于竞争的问题吧，毕竟你刚才提到了不少发展目标。说真的，每次我和企业高管聊大家真正的需求时，最后总会发现大家聊的其实都是商用软件，你说对不对？

Let me ask you about the the competition because you're describing goals and, you know, when I when I talk to executives and I describe goals and what people really want, we often realize you're talking about business software, right?

而且你公司的企业服务业务现在也在增长。

And your enterprise is growing for you.

我感觉这个产品本身就是定位企业级服务的。

And this very much feels like an enterprise offering to me.

就好像你会把它和其他所有系统都对接起来，用它来完成各项工作，真正把活儿干顺。

Like you're gonna connect to all these other systems and you're gonna get some work done and you're gonna do work.

我就是这么个感觉。

That's what this feels like to me.

而且我知道Canva本来就有海量的个人用户，好多人都爱用它玩点创作，玩得很开心。

And I know Canva has a big consumer base and a lot of people have fun with it.

但你现在做的这个东西，感觉纯纯是面向工作场景的专业工具了。

This feels like a work product.

人工智能本质上是企业软件吗？

Is AI fundamentally enterprise software?

反正我不觉得大家会渴望自动化，还说要什么个性化的自动化。

To me, like I don't think the people yearn for automation and they're like personalized.

我觉得大家只是想把工作里那些杂七杂八的琐事给甩掉，好腾出精力去做更重要的事——毕竟很多工作本来就重复，用人工智能来处理太合情合理了。

Like I think you want to get rid of busy work at work so you can do something more important and a lot of work is inherently repetitive and AI just makes a lot of sense in this zone.

你觉得人工智能本质上算是企业软件吗？

Do you think AI is fundamentally enterprise software?

我觉得你说的没错。

I think you're right.

Canva的AI功能绝对会成为核心工具，帮大家搞定各种工作。

Like Canva AI will totally be the system at the center of how work gets done.

但这也不影响普通人用它啊，比如你要给女儿的派对做海报，就能直接调取 upcoming 派对的嘉宾名单，轻松做出你想要的效果。

But that doesn't mean that if you're creating those wanted posters for your daughter's party, can't be like, pull the invite list from the party coming up and just wanting that

那这么说的话，我得能轻松查到下周末来我家的所有八岁小女孩的名单才行啊。

to kick This implies in that I have a good access to the database of the eight year old girls coming to my house next weekend.

这个想法挺不错的。

Well, a great idea.

不过对，人工智能确实常常是用来处理工作相关事务的。

But yeah, it often will be about work.

对不同人来说，“工作”的含义千差万别。

Work means many different things to many different people.

它可能是课堂上的老师的工作，可能是大公司职员的工作，也可能是小商家要做的事——比如赶制营销物料。

So work can mean a teacher in a classroom, work can mean at a large company, work can mean a small business trying to just get the marketing collateral created.

我觉得我们已经从那种单向广播式的沟通，变成了像理发师能给顾客生日时发个专属优惠券这样的个性化推送。

I think we've gone from broadcast communication where everything is like one to many to being able to have like a hairdresser being able to send out a campaign on someone's birthday to say, here's a special voucher for your birthday.

就是那种你正好喜欢的东西。

That particular thing that you like.

能实现这么个性化的沟通，我觉得这是另一个关键点。

Being able to have that much more personal communication I think is a is another aspect.

在我看来，尤其是社交媒体营销的前沿，就是这种自动化。

It does feel to me like the cutting edge of, in particular, social media marketing is automation in this way.

我看了好多TikTok和Instagram短视频，都是社交媒体运营者在分享他们怎么用AI工具搭出超厉害的仪表盘，把整个工作流都自动化了，建起了内容生产线。

And I have probably watched more TikToks and Instagram reels of social media managers explaining how they have built incredible dashboards using AI tools, automated entire workflows, built content pipelines.

这事儿明摆着呢。

You can see it.

这里面正发生着特别重要的变化。

There's something very important happening there.

Canva肯定也会加入进来，把这些工具直接集成到自家平台里。

Presumably Canva will participate in that and they will build those tools inside of Canva.

不止它一家，Meta、TikTok还有YouTube本身也都在开发一模一样的这类工具。

Right next to that is Meta itself and TikTok itself and YouTube itself, who are all working on tools exactly like this.

关于2025年的小扎，我给你念一段他的原话吧。

Mark Zuckerberg in 2025, I'm just gonna read you this quote.

这段话是他跟本·汤普森说的。

He said this to Ben Thompson.

他说大体上以后会发展成这样：如果你是商家，来找我们，说清楚你的目标，再绑定银行账户，剩下的什么创意素材、定向投放、效果追踪，全都不需要你操心。

In general, we're gonna get to a point where if you're a business, you come to us, you tell us what your objective is, you connect to your bank account, you don't need any creative, you don't need any targeting, you don't need any measurement.

只要你告诉我们你想要什么效果，我们就能帮你实现。

You tell us the results you want and we will give them to you.

最后只要你接收我们产出的结果就行。

You accept to be able to read the results that we spit out.

这直接把广告的定义都改写了。

That's a redefinition of advertising.

某种程度上来说，他们说的这套逻辑也适用于你们的产品。

That is they're describing to some extent your product.

你只需要告诉它你想达成什么目标，AI就会生成一大堆创意素材，还会自动在平台上排期投放。

You tell it what you want to achieve and AI is gonna make a bunch of creative and schedule it across their platform.

我知道抖音海外版（TikTok）正在做这个方向的产品。

I know TikTok is working on this.

我知道优兔（YouTube）也在做同样的事。

I know YouTube is working on this.

他们都看中了这个能卖给自己的大客户、也就是广告主的卖点。

They all see this thing that they can sell to their biggest clients, their advertisers.

你怎么看和这些平台自带的原生功能竞争这件事？这些功能和Canva专门为营销人员打造的产品特别像。

How do you think about competing with the platform's own native capabilities that look a lot like what Canva is trying to make for marketers in particular.

说起来还挺有意思的。

It's actually funny.

其实早在2012年我们做路演的时候就提到过这点，当时我们推出了设计引擎，就说这些大平台迟早都会推出类似工具，后来他们也确实这么做了。

It sounds like, you know, back in 2012 we had this pitch and we called it we had the design engine and we said like all these other platforms are gonna like have tools and they did.

很多公司都会为各个特定平台开发五花八门的工具。

Lots of companies have lots of different tools for like a specific platform.

但这事其实挺麻烦的，因为你作为一家公司，肯定不想只在一个平台投广告，肯定得多渠道布局。

But it's kind of annoying because as a company, you probably wanna be advertising in lots of different places.

你还得做推销演示文稿、整理各种文件，还有一大堆其他内容要处理。

You probably wanna be having your pitch decks and your docs and all the different things.

你肯定不想这些东西分散在一大堆互不关联的工具和系统里。

And you don't have that fragmented across lots of different tools and systems.

所以用Canva的话，所有东西都能整合在一个地方，不用分散在各个平台存资料、记操作。

And so, in Canva, it's kind of everything in one place rather than having to go and have your knowledge in lots of different places.

所以这十年来，我们一直主打一个核心方向，就是让Canva成为你所有工作的核心枢纽。

So that's, I guess, one of the key things that we've been leaning into for the last decade is that Canva can be that thing that is at the center of your work.

而且这中间还有个问题，就是这些平台要么数据分析做得烂，要么抠得要死不肯把数据分享给你，甚至还要让你额外交钱才能看他们的分析数据。

So the back and forth there is these platforms either have bad analytics or are not very generous in sharing their analytics or make you pay extra to access their analytics.

Meta不用说，肯定有自己的模型。

Meta obviously has its own models.

谷歌也一样，有自己的一套模型。

Google obviously has its own models.

这些平台可能会说：想投放这个创意素材，就得用他们家的工具来做。

They might say, look, if you wanna run this creative you gotta make it in our tools.

要是你非要用别处做的素材来投放，他们就会给你限流限制流量。

If you wanna use this stuff, we will throttle you if you come to us with creative made elsewhere.

说白了就是逼你用他们自己的工具。

We're gonna push you towards our tool.

这样一来你用了他们的模型，他们就能在 Token 计费上赚两次钱，两头都捞到好处。

So you use our models and we get two bites of the apple on token pricing.

我从很多人工智能公司的负责人那里听说，数据库访问权限往后会成为一个新的收费维度。

I've heard this from a bunch of AICOs that database access in general is gonna become a new pricing vector.

我们要开始收过路费了。

We're gonna charge tolls.

要是想接入我们的系统，客户就得付更高的访问费才行。

You wanna connect to our system, the customer will have to pay some higher access fee.

你有没有观察到类似的苗头？还是说现在下结论还太早了？

Have you seen any glimmers of this yet or is it too early to say?

我觉得吧，一方面这事还早得很，但另一方面，我希望最后能是消费者受益。

I'd say A, it's too early, but B, I think that hopefully the customer wins out of all this.

就是大家能顺顺利利达成目标，想用什么工具就用什么工具。

Like to achieve their goals and use the tools that they want to use.

说到底啊，所有这些其实也正好能解释，我为什么一直对设计这么痴迷。

And I guess at the end of the day, all of this is hopefully about why I've been so infatuated with design.

设计嘛，就是先在脑海里勾勒出未来的样子，再一步步把它变成现实。

It's like design is imagining the future and then willing it into existence.

而设计能从根本上推动这个过程落地。

And design really radically helps that process.

话说回来，你刚才提到了乐观主义。

And so I guess you mentioned optimism.

我之所以这么热爱设计，原因就在这：你得先在脑子里构想好自己向往的未来，之后才能一步步把它变成真的。

I think that's why I love design so much is because you kind of you do have to imagine the future that you want and then you can work to bring it into reality.

对。

Yeah.

我啊，实话实说吧，扎克伯格这人本身就很强势，争强好胜得不得了。

I I just The reality is Mark Zuckerberg exists and he's very, very, very competitive.

对吧？

Right?

这件事里也确实存在这方面的因素。

Like, there's also that piece of it.

而且我觉得，从我们的实际经历来看，我很看重创造力的作用——因为创造力本身就能成为阻碍恶性竞争的一道屏障。

And I think I also like I think From our experience, I love to have creative because creative is a blocker.

你刚才是说他们就爱钱吗？

Did you say they love money?

我可听见你说啥了啊

I heard you.

倒也确实，我认识好多做社交媒体的人，都把这事当成

Probably, it's like it is like I know a lot of social media people who take it as

先打个岔啊，我再给你额外调侃两句这事

articles Let me me give you a little extra parody on that.

他们就是喜欢往外推，广告根本不会停。

They like to be out like, they're not gonna stop advertisement.

他们的公司本来就是靠广告撑起来的。

Like, their their company is built on advertising.

他们肯定想从各种地方把创意内容都拉到自己的平台上。

It's they're gonna wanna take creative from wherever to have it on their platform.

说实话，现在企业做不出高质量广告素材，才是大家在他们平台上投广告的最大障碍。

In fact, you know, the lack of companies being able to create great advertising materials has been a huge blocker for people being able to advertise on their platform.

所以我觉得，他们一点都不会介意用Canva来制作这些内容。

And so I don't think they're gonna be sad about creating it in Canva.

明白了。

Okay.

我很好奇这个会怎么发展，因为我觉得Meta还在大力投AI，完全是自研。

I'm curious how this this one plays out because the the other thing that I see Meta doing is investing heavily in AI, like themselves.

每周扎克伯格都砸几百亿美金，招三个顶尖AI研究员，就为了做出最牛的模型。

And they are every week he, you know, Zuck has spent another $200,000,000,000,000 hiring three AI researchers who are gonna build in the best model.

而且谁能说得准这笔投入能不能有回报呢？

And like, who knows how that will pay off?

其实所有这类布局都一样，谁都没法打包票能不能回本。

The same way who knows how any of this will pay off?

但有种可能的盈利思路是，他直接规定：要想在我们平台投广告，就得用我们自己的AI模型生成素材。

But one way it could pay off is for him to say, if you want to buy advertising on our platform, you're going to generate it with our AI models.

而且因为模型是我们自研的，我们的收费能比Canva的梅兰妮低多了——她还得从别人那里买令牌，既要分摊对方的利润，又要加上自己的成本，定价自然下不来。

And because we own the model, we can charge you less than Melanie who has to go buy tokens from someone else and pay their margin and pay her margin.

而且这趋势真的很明显，我认识好多社交媒体运营都认准了一个理：必须用Instagram自带的剪辑工具做视频，平台才会给更多流量推送。

And you can just see how that would Like I know a lot of social media managers who are fully convinced that they need to make their videos in Instagram's edits app because Instagram will promote it more heavily.

哪怕他们其实根本没在里面真剪视频，就是把成片导进去过一遍水，就为了蹭上那点「用平台工具剪辑」的元数据标签。

Even if they're not actually making the videos, even if they're just feeding it through to get whatever little metadata that it says edits.

这话到底是真是假，其实也说不准。

And like, maybe that's true, maybe it's not.

但不管是Meta还是YouTube，大家对这些平台的普遍印象就是：它们肯定会给自家的工具开绿灯、拉偏架。

But the perception of Meta as a platform, the perception of YouTube as a platform is that they will self preference in this way.

那如果他们本身还做模型供应，既能开出更低的价格，又有大家已经默认的这种优先扶持自家生态的倾向，你打算怎么跟他们竞争啊？

So if they're also the model providers and they can have lower pricing and the perception of self preferencing, how do you expect to come up against that?

过个几年咱们再回头看就知道了。

Let's check back in a few years.

行。

Okay.

我其实早就猜到你会这么说了，我就是能预见到这事会往这个方向发展。

I kind of thought that's what you would say, it's just I see it coming.

尤其是Meta，他们得想办法靠正在开发的大模型赚到钱才行。

Especially for Meta, which has to find some way to make money with the model that they're building.

而到现在为止，我也没摸清他们的盈利模式，只猜到可能是靠GPU支撑的Reels内容推送来变现。

And as of yet, I don't know what it is except for maybe they're doing reels targeting on GPUs.

对，我没法替他们的商业模式站台，但站在客户的角度说：能在一个平台里搞定所有想要的内容创作，流程顺畅没什么阻碍，还能一键分发到好多平台，这正是我们过去十年一直在深耕的领域。把这套能力拓展到其他平台，不仅对我们的客户很实用，对那些平台本身也有好处——因为这样就有大量创作者能在他们的平台上做营销推广了。

Yeah, I can't speak for them and their business model, but I can certainly say, you know, for a customer's perspective being able to create all of the content that you want in one place, having little friction between that, being able to deploy into lots of places, it's the, you know, what we've been specialising in I'd say for the last decade and certainly being able to take that to other platforms has been great for our customers but then also great for the other platforms because then they are able to have all these people that can do their marketing on those platforms.

我没记错的话，咱们上次聊到的你们合作的大模型供应商还是OpenAI。

The last time we talked to your model provider was OpenAI I believe.

现在你们还是主要跟他们合作吗？

Is that still the primary partner?

我们目前和OpenAI、Anthropic都有合作，当然也在用我们自己自研的模型。

We partner with OpenAI and Anthropic and then of course our own internal models.

我们很愿意和各方展开合作。

We love to collaborate with everyone.

原来是这样。

Yeah.

这些模型是通用的吗，还是说你们的Canva AI里会把它们用在特定的任务上？

Are their models interchangeable or do you use them for specific tasks inside of Canva AI?

我们一直都是什么任务最适合用哪个模型，就选哪个模型，这个原则始终没变。

We always take the best model for the best task continuously.

现在这个领域能有这么多优秀的合作伙伴真的太好了，从谷歌到Anthropic，还有OpenAI都在跟我们合作。

It's been great to have so many great partners in the space from Google to Anthropic and OpenAI.

我感觉现在的情况是，大模型每生成一个token，背后都是大公司在砸钱。

My sense of the situation is that every token costs the big companies money.

他们都在补贴每个token的使用成本。

They're all subsidising token use.

但总有一天这会变的，对吧？

At some point that's going to turn, right?

到时候他们就想从每个token上赚点钱了。

They're going to want to make a penny of profit on every token.

那到时候你的定价怎么办？

What does that do to your pricing when that happens?

所以我们自研模型一直是战略重点，不仅把成本降下来了，延迟也大幅降低。

So investing in our own models has been a really cool part of our strategy and we were able to bring the cost down, the latency down.

价格也因此被狠狠压低了。

So that's been a and the price is being driven down radically.

你看过去三年，LLM查询的价格直接降到了原来的五十分之一。

Like if you look at the price of LLM queries, it's grown down 50 times in the last three years.

所以看到这么多大公司争着推出最便宜的模型，真的挺让人兴奋的。

So it's pretty exciting from that standpoint of having so many big companies racing to provide the cheapest models.

你刚才说你们自研模型，那你们现在也要抢GPU资源吗？

When you say your own models, you actually are you like in the fight for GPUs?

还是说你们是租用别人的云来训练这些模型？

Are you training them on someone else's cloud?

这块具体是怎么运作的？

How's that working?

对，算力这块确实是我们的核心投资方向，所以我们专门组建了一支百余人的研发团队，专注攻克我们需要的技术领域。

Yeah, it's been a really important area of investment, which is why we've got our own research team of 100 people that are investing in the areas that we need to.

举个例子吧，我刚才提到的设计方向里，那个“魔术分层”功能其实是我们自己的研究团队做出来的。

So for example, I was mentioning the design side, like magic layers was from our own research org.

能把钱投在别的公司没关注到的领域，这种感觉真的很棒。

It's been really exciting to invest in the areas that other companies aren't.

那些已经有海量资金涌入的赛道，我们没必要挤进去抢，但只要是能切实给我们的用户带来独特优势的方向，我们肯定会全力投入。

We don't need to go and compete in areas that there are billions of dollars of investment already happening, but in the areas that we know we can give great advantage for our customers, we certainly do that.

就说这个魔术分层功能吧：不管你是用什么工具生成的图片，都能导入Canva，这个功能会自动把图片拆分成可编辑的图层，你就能像编辑Canva模板一样修改它了。

So Magic Layers was you'd now take any image from wherever you might generate it into Canva, and then it will actually split it out into layers so you can just edit it like a Canva template.

那这个魔力图层功能是用你们自己的模型跑的吗？还是说你们对接了外部的……对。

Does that does Magic Layers happen on your models or is that are you going out Yeah.

不是的。

No.

它确实是用我们自己的模型实现的。

That's that's certainly our models.

这太厉害了。

That's really cool.

那你们选择自研模型，而不是直接用其他服务商的方案时，会去测算性价比吗？

When you've made the decisions to invest in your own models versus going out to other providers, is there a cost performance ratio?

你们具体是怎么拍板做这个决定的？

Like how do you make that decision?

毕竟自研模型成本可不低啊。

Because investing in your own models is expensive.

确实烧钱，但你看那个魔法分层功能，上线才四周就已经被用了800万次了。

It is expensive, but, like, for example, Magic Lays has had 8,000,000 uses in the four weeks since launching.

而且这个功能确实戳中了用户的痛点——以前你生成内容后，得不停给大语言模型重新输提示词才能调整，特别麻烦。

And it just it really hit a pain point that people had, which was that you generate something and you have to go and re prompt the LLM over and over again to be able to do it.

现在只要直接进去微调几行文字就行，还能支持协作之类的，这个功能真的太实用了。

Being able to like just go in and make that tiny little text tweak or, you know, to be able to collaborate or whatever it might be has been really important.

所以我觉得，我们每次选模型的时候，核心标准都是挑全球最顶尖的那个。

So I guess, you know, every time we're choosing a model, it's like, what is the best in the world?

同时我们也得给公司各个业务线都设定对应的价格区间。

What you know, we want to have price brackets for each of the different areas of our company.

所以呢，我们现在有好几种不同的模型，

So, you know, we've got different models.

用户可以选高阶版的模型，也可以选标准版的，

You can choose your premium models or you can choose standard models.

我们本身就是设计和视觉AI领域的专家，所以研发一直都围绕这个方向深耕。

So we are domain experts in design and visual AI, and so that's been really the focus of our research and development.

我知道你之前说不想提竞品，但收尾前我想问问你们最大的竞争对手相关的情况。

I wanna you you said you don't wanna talk about your competitors, but I wanna wrap up by talking about your biggest competitor.

我们上次聊的时候就花了一些时间谈这个，今天也一样。

We we spent some time on it the last time you on today.

我其实挺好奇的。

I'm actually curious.

我都不知道你会点谁的名字。

I don't even know who you're gonna name.

咱们最大的对手是谁？

Who's our biggest competitor?

我觉得是Adobe。

I think it's Adobe.

我觉得就是Adobe。

I I I think it's Adobe.

在专业创意软件领域，明显就是Adobe嘛。

I think in the world of creative software for professionals, it's obviously Adobe.

至于Canva，可能更偏向普通消费者一些。

And maybe Canva's more consumer than that.

你觉得你最大的竞争对手是谁？

Who do you think your biggest competitor is?

我不该问这个问题的，是吧？

I shouldn't have opened that question up, should I?

我该让你自己说下去的。

I should've let you just go.

你这不正好撞枪口上了嘛。

You walked right into this.

我知道，我知道。

I know, I know.

当年我们刚起步的时候，就觉得市场上有个巨大的空白。

I'd like, you know, we when we set out years ago, we were like, there's this huge gap in the market.

那时候根本没什么工具能让设计变得简单、快速，还能释放创意。

There wasn't tools that enabled easy design that was rapid and enabled creative freedom.

我觉得Canva AI 2.0正好填补了这个空缺，把创意和效率结合起来，让人能在一个地方把所有工作都搞定。

And I think that that's exactly with Canva AI two point zero, bringing creativity and productivity together, being this place where you can get all of your work done in one place.

其实我真没把它们当成竞争对手。

They're really I don't really think of it as competitors.

我们有一个高达2.5亿用户的庞大社区要服务，得帮这群人实现他们的目标。

There are a community of a quarter billion people that we need to satisfy and help them achieve their goals.

所以我们一门心思只顾走好自己的路，填补市场里的这块空白。

We're really focused on running our own race and filling the gap in the market.

行吧，这就算是你的答案了。

Guess that's answer.

那你最大的竞争对手到底是谁啊？

Who's your biggest competitor?

你最大的竞争对手是谁啊？

Who's your biggest competitor?

害，这就好像……

It is like

根本没有对手。

no one.

一个市值40亿美金的公司不可能没对手啊

You can't be a $4,000,000,000 company with no competitors.

这根本由不得你选

That's not a choice.

我不这么看——我们内部是这么想的：要是真去跟风做别人已经做出来的东西，那才是糟糕的商业决策，你懂我的意思吧？

I don't think that they're I think, like, the way we think about it, it would be it would be actually a bad business decision to be like, you know what I'm gonna do?

跑去抄别人已经做出来的产品，自己再做一遍

I'm gonna go and create this product that another company has created.

这么想根本说不通

That wouldn't make any sense.

我们入场的时候完全是冲着填补市场空白去的

We literally go in and we say like, where is the gap in the market?

用户现在还有哪些需求没被满足

Where are you

我很认同你们在做的事，也很欣赏这一点

I like what you're doing and I appreciate it.