回放：私募股权如何摧毁企业与社区

嗯。

Mhmm.

那真的发生了吗？

Has that played out?

你看到那些成功的案例了吗？

Do you do you see those success stories?

我能想到一个？

I can I can think of one?

我不想透露出来。

I don't wanna give it away.

但你看到过其他成功的案例吗？

But have you seen other success stories?

当然。

Sure.

确实有一些成功的案例。

There are certainly success stories.

我不想说私募股权交易总是以失败告终。

I do not want to say that private equity deals always end badly.

那当然不是事实。

That is certainly not the case.

私募股权的主要游说团体喜欢引用这个统计数据。

The private equity's main lobbying group loves to cite the statistic.

我记不清确切的数字了，但大多数私募股权交易实际上都是针对小型家族企业。

I forget the exact number, but the majority of private equity deals are actually for small family run companies.

据我所知，这一点确实是真实的。

And that is, a, true, as best I can tell.

而且，更重要的是，这些交易的成功率高于大型公司的交易。

And b, it is also true that more of those deals are successful than is true for the biggest companies.

对吧？

Right?

在我的书中，我确实聚焦于那些更灾难性的案例。

And I do focus on the more disastrous stories in my book.

虽然大多数交易都是针对小公司的，但大部分资金都流向了大公司。

While it is true that most deals are for small companies, the most of the money is for the big companies.

对吧？

Right?

因此，规模更大的杠杆收购对员工数量、整个社会等各方面的影响都要大得多。

And so the larger leveraged buyouts just have much greater effects on the number of workers, our society at large, all of those things.

而这些交易往往结果最差。

And those deals tend to have the worst outcomes.

对吧？

Right?

被私募股权收购的企业中，破产的数量是其他类型企业的十倍。

So 10 times as many businesses acquired by private equity declare bankruptcy as other types of businesses.

这是一个难以反驳的统计数据。

So that is just a statistic that is hard to argue with.

并不是说私募股权从来都不奏效。

It's not that private equity never works.

问题是，当核心理念是不惜一切代价不断变大、吞噬越来越大的事物时，就会出现一个问题：更多人受到负面影响，结果也往往更糟。

It's that when the ethos is you get bigger and bigger and bigger at all costs, and you devour bigger and bigger and bigger things, then you start to end up with a problem where more people are negatively affected and the results tend to be a lot worse.

让我们从这个角度谈谈医疗保健。

Let's talk about health care in that context.

你书里有一句话让我印象深刻：社区需要企业。

You have a line in the book that is really stuck with me that communities need businesses.

对吧？

Right?

社区中拥有商业活动本身就带来了巨大的价值。

There's some enormous value that just having commerce in your community provides.

对吧？

Right?

它让社区充满活力。

It makes a community vibrant.

它让人们感受到彼此的归属。

It makes people feel like they belong together.

人们可能会在自己社区里的企业与这些企业的经营者之间建立一种关系。

There's a relationship people might have between the businesses in their community and themselves, people who run those businesses.

医疗保健在很大程度上也是社区的一部分。

Healthcare is part of that community in like a huge way.

将医疗保健商品化，使其成为一种工业产品，这是私募股权规模给美国带来的系统性变革。

Commodifying that and making that an industrial product, that's a systematic change that private equity scale has brought to America.

嗯。

Mhmm.

对吧？

Right?

这就是你所说的那笔钱。

And that that's the money you're talking about.

要彻底改变美国医疗保健的性质，需要大量的资金。

You need a lot of money to just wholesale change the nature of healthcare in America.

这笔钱已经到来，我们能感受到。

That money arrived, we can feel it.

我觉得现在人们真的能感受到这一点。

I think people can really feel it right now.

但并没有市场压力来改善它。

But there's no market pressure to make it better.

但让我最痛心的是，人人都知道它很糟糕。

But that's the thing that like kills me about it, is everyone knows it's bad.

在极资本主义的美国，提供更好的服务就能赚更多钱这一想法已经被彻底打断了。

And the idea that you could provide a better service in ultra capitalist America and make more money by providing a better service is just short circuited.

你认为为什么会这样？

Why do you think that is?

私人资本大量涌入医疗领域的一个原因，是《平价医疗法案》。

Part of the reason that a ton of private equity money flowed into health care in particular was the Affordable Care Act.

《平价医疗法案》当然为社会带来了诸多积极效益，尤其是对那些原本无法获得保险的人。

The Affordable Care Act obviously had all sorts of positive benefits for society, especially for people who couldn't get insurance otherwise.

它也意味着，私人资本公司又获得了一笔新的稳定资金来源。

It also meant, again, that there was a a new source of guaranteed money for private equity firms.

因为突然之间，最坏的情况是，政府将为更多人支付保险费用，而之前这些人是没保险的。

Because all of a sudden, you know, worst case scenario, like, the government's gonna pay a lot more people are insured than previously were.

因此，医疗保健的问题——这不是私人股权制造的问题——是每个人都需要它，但很多人付不起钱，而政府的报销又极其糟糕。

And so the problem of health care, which is not a problem that private equity created, is that everybody needs it, many people can't pay for it, the government reimburses terribly for it.

所以，从某种意义上说，这确实是一个破损的商业模式，如果有人真想解决这个问题，就必须彻底拆掉重来。

And so it really is a broken business model in a way that will require you know, if anybody ever gets serious about fixing it, will require tearing it down to the studs and starting over.

而这是一件非常困难的事情。

And that's a very difficult thing to do.

因此，私人股权公司合理地——在某种程度上——介入进来，说：好吧，这确实很糟糕，但我们看到了一种能让我们获利的方式。

And so private equity, you know, understandably to some extent, kind of came in and said, well, you know, this is real broken, but we see a way for it to work for us.

而对他们来说，所谓‘有利’通常意味着拆分资产的模式。

And working for them generally did mean kind of the stripping it for parts model.

你卖掉房地产，削减服务。

You sell off the real estate, you cut back the services.

因此，突然之间，我在书中聚焦于农村医院，那里的人们真的别无选择。

And so all of a sudden, you know, I focus on rural hospitals in the book, where people genuinely don't have other options.

当你不断削减他们当地医院本已有限的服务时，这对私募股权公司来说确实很好。

And that when you take away more and more and more of the services they do have at their local hospital, yeah, that's great for the private equity firm.

对吧？

Right?

这纯粹是在削减成本。

That's just cutting costs.

然后你无情地合并，以进一步降低成本。

And then you kind of ruthlessly consolidate to cut more costs.

如果人们连生孩子的地方都没有了，好吧，这很不幸，但事实就是这样。

And then, you know, if people don't have a place to deliver their baby anymore, okay, that's unfortunate, but here we are.

这回答了你的问题吗？

Did that actually answer your question?

是的，回答了。

It did.

你知道，我父母是八十年代威斯康星州小镇上的医生。

You know, my parents were small town doctors in Wisconsin in the eighties.

我妹妹现在是一名医生。

My sister's a doctor now.

我之所以关注社区和企业，是因为上世纪八十年代威斯康星州小镇上他们工作的医院本身就是社区的一部分。

The the reason that I focused on communities and businesses is the hospitals they worked at in small town Wisconsin in the eighties were just part of the community.

是的。

Yeah.

对吧？

Right?

我们镇上每个人都是在两家医院之一出生的，圣玛丽医院或圣卢克医院，人们都会谈论这些事。

Everyone was born in my town at one of the two hospitals, St.

圣玛丽医院或圣卢克医院，人们都会谈论这些事。

Mary's or St.

人们都会谈论这些事。

Luke's and people talked about it.

我不知道为什么会有这种竞争，但确实存在竞争。

And I don't know why that was a rivalry, but it was a rivalry.

就像小镇上总是会形成竞争一样。

Like in the way that small towns just create rivalries.

而如今，所有这些都被合并成了庞大的企业实体。

And then all of those things are merged into giant corporate entities now.

这正是我父母职业生涯的经历。

And that has been the experience of my parents' career.

我妹妹的诊所被一家私募股权公司收购了。

My sister, her practice was bought by a PE company.

每当我们做一期关于私募股权的节目，都会收到医生发来的邮件，说你们根本不了解情况有多糟。

Every time we do an episode about PE, we get emails from doctors saying you don't understand how bad it is.

是啊。

Yeah.

对吧？

Right?

我们已经将医疗操作化并提高了效率，但这种方式实际上让行医变得几乎难以持续。

We have operationalized and added efficiency to medicine in a way that has actually made the practice of medicine almost untenable.

嗯。

Mhmm.

就像人们并不喜欢做这件事。

Like people do not like doing it.

你在书中非常清晰地描述了这一点，这种直白的表述我从未在其他人那里见过。

And you you describe it very clearly in the book in a way that I don't think I've seen anybody just straight up describe it.

你说人们并不把医生当作劳动者，而私募股权却把他们变成了劳动者。

You say people don't think of doctors as workers and private equity has made them workers.

他们依然拥有医生的社会地位，也仍然是医生，但私募股权使他们变成了劳动者。

They they still have the status and they're still doctors, but PE has made them workers.

谈谈这一点吧。

Talk about that a little bit.

这听起来是不是很诱人？

Is that does that seem tantal?

因为作为医生已经很难了，而还要再当一个机器的雇员，这真的很难受。

Because it's really hard to be a doctor and then to be a doctor and then to feel like an employee of a machine.

这从我自己的家庭经历以及每次我们做私募股权专题时收到的读者来信来看，都是令人不安的。

It it's destabilizing just from the experiences I've had with my own family and from the people that write in every time we do a PE episode.

我书中聚焦的那位医生来自怀俄明州的一个小镇，他之所以选择从事社区医学，是因为他深爱的叔叔——他的榜样——就是一位社区医生。

The doctor I focus on in the book, who is in small town Wyoming, he wanted to go into community medicine because his beloved uncle, who was his role model, was a community doctor.

他的叔叔是在三四十年代、五十年代当社区医生的，那时候当社区医生意味着你只是为自己工作。

And his uncle was a community doctor in, like, you know, the thirties, forties, fifties, at a time when being a community doctor meant you just worked for yourself.

对吧？

Right?

你可以自行定价。

You could set whatever prices you wanted.

如果市场能承受，那就没问题；如果不能，那就接受现实。

If the market would bear them, the market would bear them.

如果不行，就自己想办法。

If not, deal with it.

你可以以物易物，比如为付不起钱的人提供治疗，你可以自由做出任何选择。

You could barter, you know, you could treat people who couldn't afford to pay, whatever choices you wanted to make.

随着美国医学的专业化，所有人都被纳入了医院和诊所体系。

And then as medicine in The US professionalized, everybody got pulled into the kind of hospital and clinic system.

当私募股权进入后，医生们就彻底失去了任何自主权。

And then when private equity came in, you know, it was just game over for doctors having any autonomy to themselves.

我觉得特别有趣的一点是，这并不仅仅是私募股权的问题。

And one thing that I think is really interesting is that it's not actually just private equity.

对吧？

Right?

比如学术医学，我丈夫从事学术医学，也采用了同样的无情整合理念。

So academic medicine, my husband works in academic medicine, uses that same philosophy of ruthless consolidation as well.

书中讲了一个关于耶鲁大学的故事，它收购了康涅狄格州各地的所有机构。

There's a story in the book about Yale, which just bought up everything across Connecticut.

你看到的结果是，患者满意度大幅下降，而患者支付的费用却大幅上升。

And what you saw was patient satisfaction went way down, and the costs patients pay went way up.

这就是耶鲁。

That's Yale.

对吧？

Right?

从某种意义上说，这与私募股权运营的医院正好相反。

That's, in some sense, the opposite of a private equity run hospital.

但问题都是一样的。

But it's all the same problems.

哈佛医院的医生，尤其是内科医生，目前正在组织工会，因为他们工作过度、毫无自主权，已经受够了。

The doctors at Harvard's hospitals, the internists are unionizing right now because they're so overworked, they don't have any autonomy, and they're just sick of it.

因此，虽然私募股权并没有创造这些问题，但它确实利用并加剧了这些问题，把医生变成了机器中的一个齿轮，就像多年来他们对待零售员工那样。

And so, though private equity didn't create these problems, it certainly took advantage and made doctors into a cog in the machine in the same way that they had, for years, treated retail workers, for example, as cogs in the machine.

所以，是的，医生们非常愤怒。

And so, yeah, doctors are furious.

他们也是我听到最多的群体。

They're the most common group of people I hear from too.

现在有大量医生团体正试图组织起来对抗私募股权。

There are all these groups of doctors wanting to organize against private equity.

让我觉得有趣的是，这些医生并不都是左翼人士。

And what's interesting to me is, like, these are not all leftist doctors.

其中很多人认为，工会对于医生来说恰恰是错误的解决方案。

These are a lot of folks who think that, you know, unions are exactly the wrong answer for doctors, for example.

但有一种共识是，我们或许在解决方案上意见不一，但我们都一致认为，私募股权是敌人，无论我们个人的政治立场如何。

But there is this current of we may not all agree on the solutions, but we are completely unanimous that private equity is the enemy, whatever our individual politics.

这种动态对我来说非常有趣。

That dynamic is super interesting to me.

你有一群受过极高教育、相当富裕的人，政治观点截然不同，但他们都能看清问题所在。

That you have this class of ultra educated, pretty wealthy people, wildly divergent political views and they can see the problem.

让我感到困惑的是，理论上应该存在系统性和市场性的纠正机制来解决这个问题。

And the thing that gets me is there are supposed to be systemic and market correctives to the problem.

比如，医生的数量根本不够。

Like there aren't enough doctors.

光是这一点就应该能解决这个问题，对吧？

That alone should solve the problem, right?

市场本应响应稀缺劳动力的需求，但这种机制却被打断了。

Like the market should be receptive to the needs of the scarce labor and that is short circuited.

我不太明白为什么会这样。

And I I kinda don't know why.

我在科技行业能看到这种情况，比如你是AI工程师，你就有一艘大船，你知道的。

Like I can see it in tech, if you're an AI engineer, like you get a boat, you know.

是的。

Yeah.

市场对招募和留住这类稀缺人才非常积极。

The market is ultra receptive to recruiting and retaining that talent because it's scarce.

但在医疗市场中，感觉几乎恰恰相反。

And in the healthcare market, it it's it feels almost as though it's the opposite.

也不会突然冒出大量新医生。

And there's not some big supply of new doctors that's gonna show show up.

我们肯定不会像七八十年代对待我父母那样，大规模引进医生了。

We're certainly not gonna immigrate them like they did with my parents in the seventies and eighties.

你认为为什么医疗保健领域会如此脱节？

Why do you think that's been so short circuited in health care?

是的。

Yeah.

我的意思是，有几个原因。

I mean, there are a couple of reasons.

一个是，医生的数量受到限制，因为联邦政府严格限制了住院医师培训名额的数量。

One is that there's an imposed limit on how many doctors there can be because there's an imposed limit literally imposed by the federal government on the number of residency slots.

对吧？

Right?

所以医生确实短缺，但同时也确实存在很多人在争夺这些有限的住院医师名额。

So there is a shortage of doctors, but it is also true that, like, you have everybody fighting for this number of of residency slots.

但另一点是，医疗保健行业在很多方面都打破了我们对自由市场经济规则的认知。

But the other thing is, like, healthcare is an industry that breaks what we think of as the rules of free market capitalism in so many ways.

因为政府的介入比许多其他行业都要多。

Because of there's there's more government involvement than in a lot of industries.

但还因为有一本书，堪称美国医学作为商业的权威历史著作。

But also because there's this book that is, like, the definitive history of American medicine as a business.

这本书叫《美国医学的社会转型》。

It's called The Social Transformation of American Medicine.

作者是普林斯顿大学的一位名叫保罗·斯塔尔的教授，出版于八十年代。

It's by this Princeton professor named Paul Star, and it came out in the eighties.

我是在2022年偶然拿到这本书的，原本以为它会显得非常过时。

I picked it up in, like, 2022 expecting it to feel incredibly dated.

但事实上，它却显得异常前瞻，因为它逐条追溯了我们如何从医生为本地社区提供诊疗的体系，逐步演变为如今专业医院兴起的模式。

And in fact, it felt so prescient because it traced exactly step by step how we went from this system of doctors treating their own communities to, okay, now we're starting to get professional hospitals.

这很好。

That's great.

我们能够挽救更多生命。

We're able to save more lives.

但与此同时，我们却将医生纳入了这个体系，却没有认真思考如何设计一个合理的系统。

But also, now we're putting doctors into this system without really thinking about how do we design a system that makes sense.

所以从一开始，这个系统就彻底出了问题。

And so from the very beginning, it was super broken.

对吧？

Right?

这个系统从未真正运行良好过，我们不可能说：让我们回到过去那种状态。

There was never a time where this system worked well, and we could just say, like, let's go back to that.

这对我来说很棘手，因为我并不认为私募股权是美国医疗体系的好模式。

It's a tricky one to me because I don't think private equity is a good system for American medicine.

而且，我真的不知道除了彻底推倒重来之外，还有什么解决办法。

And also, I truly don't know what the solve is without, like I say, ripping it down to the studs and starting over.

这是一种政治解决方案，一种监管解决方案。

That's a political solution, a regulatory solution.

有很多关于医疗政策的播客，人们可以去听。

There are many podcasts about health care policy that people can go listen to.

但在这个节目、这个语境下，2025年，我们似乎不得不讨论另一个看似存在的缓解途径——联合健康集团的首席执行官布莱恩·汤普森在纽约街头遭枪击。

But it feels like for this show in this context in 2025, we have to talk about the other relief valve that appears to exist, which is Brian Thompson, the CEO of United Healthcare was shot on the street in New York City.

路易斯·吉曼尼奥目前正在服刑，等待审判，他被指控涉嫌谋杀。

Louis Gimangione is in prison awaiting his trial for for what appears to be that murder.

这是一个非常糟糕的结果。

That is a very bad outcome.

你不希望政治暴力成为纠正私营股权投资在医疗保健领域乃至其他任何地方过度行为的手段。

You don't want what feels like political violence to correct the the excesses of the private equity market in healthcare or really anywhere else.

这个行业是否意识到：我们压榨得太厉害了，以至于街头发生了枪击事件。

Has the industry seen, oh, this is we've squeezed it so hard that there are shootings in the street.

这让人感觉，好吧。

That feels like, okay.

是时候拉下紧急拉杆，真正思考一下这些后果了。

Like, it's time to pull the ripcord and maybe actually think about the outcomes here.

这是一个非常有趣的问题。

It's such an interesting question.

据我所知，医疗界对这起枪击事件的主要反应是：我们得加强安保。

What I understand to have been the main reaction in health care circles to that shooting was, you know, let's get more security.

让我们确保这些人得到更好的保护。

Let's make sure these people are better protected.

而不是我们可能需要改变系统，让愤怒不再如此明显。

Not maybe we need to change the system so the anger isn't so palpable.

我还想谈谈私募股权，还有布莱恩·汤普森——他不是私募股权人士，而是健康保险行业的，这些人因为很少有人了解他们的影响力，所以感觉更安全一些。

I also think talking about private equity specifically, and, you know, Brian Thompson, not a private equity guy, health insurance guy, those folks get to feel a little safer because of the knowledge that few people understand their influence.

对吧？

Right?

所以大多数人并不知道他们当地的医院是由私募股权公司运营的。

So most people do not know if their local hospital is run by a private equity company.

我接触过的大多数员工，大约几百人，都不知道自己的公司是由私募股权公司控股的，即使他们在那里工作了很多年。

Most of the workers I talked to, you know, a couple 100 people, didn't know that their company was owned by private equity, even if they had worked there for years.

因此，私募股权喜欢在暗处运作。

And so private equity loves to operate in the shadows.

当你开始思考，是的，这种愤怒是否强烈到会引发政治暴力？

And when you start to think about, like, yeah, is the anger so intense that it's going to result in political violence?

也许直到十二月，健康保险公司的高管们还觉得自己属于那个群体。

Maybe until December, health insurance executives felt like they were in that group.

但我认为，即使在布莱恩·汤普森遇害之后，私募股权高管们可能仍然觉得自己属于那个群体。

But I I think that private equity executives probably still feel like they're in that group even after the Brian Thompson shooting.

因为，你知道，谁能说出一个私募股权高管的名字？

Because, like, you know, who can name a private equity executive?

对吧？

Right?

嗯，任何人都可以。

Well, anyone.

你只要在纽约走一走。

You just walk around New York.

他们的名字出现在所有大楼上。

Their names turn all the buildings.

这没错。

That's true.

我的意思是，是的。

I mean, yes.

如果你足够关注任何艺术博物馆的董事会成员是谁，或者儿童医院是以谁命名的，等等，那确实是这样。

If you're paying enough attention to who's on the board of any art museum or who the children's hospital is named after or whatever, yes.

但你知道，我认为大多数人如果看到那边的克拉维斯儿童医院，也说不出亨利·克拉维斯是谁，以及他为什么重要。

But, you know, I don't think most people, if told, you know, see the Kravis Children's Hospital over there, could tell you who Henry Kravis is and why he matters.

对吧？

Right?

这里有一种有趣的分裂：一方面，我们把私募股权人士看作慈善家、文化机构的捐助者；另一方面，他们其实就是普通的私募股权人士。

There's like, this interesting divide between, like, our perception of private equity guys as philanthropists, benefactors of cultural institutions, all of that, and private equity guys as private equity guys.

所以，如果你不了解，我认为这正是私募股权的一个根本问题：没人明白他们是谁，以及他们如何运作。

And so if you don't know I think this is a real fundamental problem with private equity is that nobody understands who they are or how they work.

而这可能确实让他们在路易吉·曼乔内事件的时代获得了一点安全感。

And that probably does give them a little bit of a better sense of security in the age of Luigi Mangione.

但同时，你知道，他们带来的负面后果也很严重。

But also, you know, it's it's the negative outcomes there are pretty bad too.

我会说，出现在《解码者》节目的首席执行官们，亲自到场时的安全措施越来越多。

I will say that the CEOs who show up on Decoder, increasing amounts of security when they show up in person.

是啊，没错。

It is Oh, yeah.

这确实是我们观察到的一个明显趋势。

That is very much a trend that we have seen.

但我就是觉得我们的客户恨我们恨到极点，以至于有些人已经开始朝我们开枪了。

But I just feel like our customers hate us so much that some of them have started shooting us.

这是最后的市场修正吗？

Is the last market corrective?

对吧？

Right?

总得有什么事情发生，至少改变一下对话的基调。

Like, the the something has to happen there that at least changes the valence of the conversation.

而你说，对于私募股权来说，这种压力依然没有感受到。

And you're saying for PE, that pressure still isn't felt.

我觉得这种压力还没感受到。

I don't think it's felt.

没错。

No.

因为我根本不觉得私募股权人士意识到他们还没有受到严密关注。

Because I just don't think I think private equity guys know that they are not yet being super closely looked at.

即使你知道美国医疗体系已经严重崩溃，你也必须深入了解很多信息，才能判断哪些问题可以归咎于私募股权人士。

And even if you know that American health care is super broken, You just have to kind of understand a lot to understand which part of that you can attribute to private equity people.

健康保险公司的首席执行官，人人都讨厌他们的健康保险公司。

A health insurance CEO everybody hates their health insurance.

对吧？

Right?

所以我正在想，该怎么说才能不显得太糟糕。

So I'm trying to think of how to say this without sounding terrible.

但某种程度上，有人去针对健康保险公司的高管，虽然这很可怕，但对我来说并不那么意外，相比之下，如果有人去查一下，比如……

But like, it is less surprising on some level to me that somebody would go after a health insurance executive, as terrible as that is, than if somebody were to look up okay.

这个基金拥有我当地的医院。

So this fund owns my local hospital.

这个基金由一家私募股权公司运营。

This fund is run by x PE company.

这家私募股权公司由某些人管理。

This PE company is run by x people.

这正是他们做出的决策。

This is exactly what decisions they took.

存在一层层的空壳公司和基金，这些结构在一定程度上掩盖了真相，除非人们愿意花功夫去深入挖掘，否则很难看清——当然，除非是像我们这样疯狂、爱刨根问底的记者。

There is a level of shell companies and funds and all of this stuff that ends up disguising it a little bit from people who don't put in the work to, you know, really dig and who would, you know, unless they're crazy, nosy journalists like us.

这并不是说，医生被枪击的事件就没有发生过。

This is not to say Like, there have been doctor shootings too.

对吧？

Right?

因为有人手术出了问题，就有人跑去枪杀自己的医生。

Because somebody's surgery gets messed up and somebody goes and shoots their doctor.

但这种感觉要直接得多，我认为，健康保险公司的首席执行官也是如此，而不是像这个基金，它甚至比你医院的母公司还要高出三层。

But that feels so much more visceral, I think, as does a health insurance CEO, than, like, this fund three levels above even the parent company of your hospital does.

对我来说，真正有趣的是，今天我们所拥有的健康保险市场的形成条件，其实也高出三层。

To me, what's really interesting is that the conditions that create the health insurance market that we have today are three levels above.

这是 consolidation（整合）。

It is consolidation.

是的。

Yes.

这是成本控制。

It is cost control.

这是利润榨取。

It is profit extraction.

这一点似乎正变得越来越明显。

And that seems to be coming more apparent.

对吧？

Right?

我认为越来越多的人意识到，私募股权公司一出现，这些影响就会随之而来。

I think more and more people are aware that PE shows up and then these effects follow.

我认为越来越多的人意识到，玩具反斗城曾经是一家存在的公司，但现在已不复存在。

I think more and more people are aware that Toys R Us was a company that existed and no longer exists.

或者像红龙虾，他们试图把明显的问题归咎于无限量虾，但实际上是因为私募股权公司介入了。

Or like Red Lobster, they're trying to blame a very obvious thing on endless shrimp and actually it's the PE company showed up.

是的。

Yeah.

手工艺者们对Joanne Fabric超市气得发疯。

The crafters man, mad about Joanne Fabrics.

我经常听到手工艺者们的反馈。

I hear from the crafters so often.

医生和手工艺者。

Doctors and crafters.

是的。

Yeah.

没错。

Exactly.

那些人真的很生气。

Those folks are mad.

我们刚刚休息了一下。

We have taken another quick break.

马上回来。

We'll be back in just a minute.

本节目由领英赞助。

Support for this show comes from LinkedIn.

想象一下，如果所有包含‘我需要一个合适的人来做这份工作’这句台词的电影，都妥协为‘随便找个人就行’会怎样？

Imagine if any of the movies that included the line, I need the right person for the job settled for, I'll just take about anyone.

有多少次劫案会失败？

How many heists would have failed?

有多少笔交易会泡汤？

How many deals would have fallen through?

有多少秘密间谍任务会以灾难告终？

How many secret spy missions would have ended in disaster?

那么，为什么在为你的企业招聘时，你要随便找个人呢？

So why would you accept just anyone when hiring for your business?

当你需要找合适的人选时，可以使用LinkedIn Jobs。

When you need the right person for the job, you can turn to LinkedIn Jobs.

现在，LinkedIn Jobs推出了全新的AI助手，让你更有信心找到其他地方无法寻得的顶尖人才。

And now LinkedIn Jobs is stepping things up with their new AI assistant, so you can feel confident you're finding top talent that you can't find anywhere else.

通过LinkedIn Jobs的AI助手，你可以跳过繁琐的步骤和招聘术语。

With LinkedIn jobs AI assistant, you can skip the confusing steps and recruiting jargon.

它会根据你为职位设定的标准筛选求职者，只呈现最匹配的人选，让你不必被困在堆积如山的简历中。

It filters through applicants based on criteria you've set for your role and surfaces only the best matches so you're not stuck sorting through a mountain of resumes.

一次就招对人。

Hire right the first time.

免费在linkedin.com/partner发布职位，然后推广它以使用LinkedIn Jobs的新AI助手，让寻找顶尖候选人变得更简单、更快捷。

Post your job for free at linkedin.com/partner, then promote it to use LinkedIn jobs new AI assistant, making it easier and faster to find top candidates.

这就是 linkedin.com/partner，免费发布您的职位。

That's linkedin.com/partner to post your job for free.

条款和条件适用。

Terms and conditions apply.

本节目由 MongoDB 提供支持。

Support for this show comes from MongoDB.

您是一位希望创新的开发者。

You're a developer who wants to innovate.

但您却不得不花时间解决瓶颈问题和处理遗留代码。

Instead, you're stuck fixing bottlenecks and fighting legacy code.

MongoDB 可以帮到您。

MongoDB can help.

它是一个灵活且统一的平台，由开发者为开发者打造。

It's a flexible, unified platform that's built for developers by developers.

MongoDB 符合 ACID 标准，适用于企业，具备快速构建 AI 应用所需的功能。

MongoDB is ACID compliant, enterprise ready, with the capabilities you need to ship AI apps fast.

因此，众多《财富》500强企业都信赖MongoDB来承载他们最重要的工作负载。

That's why so many of the Fortune 500 trust MongoDB with their most critical workloads.

准备好跳出行和列的思维了吗？

Ready to think outside rows and columns?

立即在mongodb.com/build上开始构建。

Start building at mongodb.com/build.

今天节目的支持来自SelectQuote。

Support for today's show comes from SelectQuote.

是时候聊聊人生了，特别是人寿保险。

Time for some life talk, specifically life insurance.

你很可能为很少的保障支付了过多的费用，但通过SelectQuote找到合适的保单，就能轻松解决这个问题。

Odds are you pay too much for too little, but it's simple to get it right by finding a policy with SelectQuote.

四十多年来，SelectQuote一直是保险领域最值得信赖的经纪公司之一，已帮助超过200万美国人获得超过7000亿美元的保障。

For over forty years, SelectQuote has been one of the most trusted brokers and insurance, helping more than 2,000,000 Americans secure over $700,000,000,000 in coverage.

他们的使命很简单：为你找到最适合你独特需求的保险政策。

Their mission is simple: to find you the right insurance policy for your unique needs.

他们购物，你省钱。

They shop, you save.

无需体检，没问题。

No medical exam, no problem.

他们与提供当日保障、最高达200万美元的供应商合作，无需拜访医生。

They partner with providers offering same day coverage up to $2,000,000 without needing to visit your doctor.

以更低的价格获得适合你的寿险，节省超过50%，立即访问 selectquote.com/decoder。

Get the right life insurance for you for less and save more than 50% at selectquote.com/decoder.

今天就访问 selectquote.com/decoder，节省超过50%的定期寿险费用，立即开始。

Save more than 50% on term life insurance at selectquote.com/decoder today to get started.

那就是 selectquote.com/decoder。

That's selectquote.com/decoder.

欢迎回来。

Welcome back.

我正在与梅根·格林韦尔讨论她的著作《劣质公司》、私募股权以及美国梦的消亡。

I'm talking to Megan Greenwell about her book, bad company, private equity, and the death of the American Dream.

在广告插播前，我们正在讨论她书中所追踪的行业、公司和人们在私募股权收购前后所发生的变化。

Before the break, we were talking about what happened to the industries and companies and people she followed in her book before and during private equity takeovers.

但这些故事并不仅仅止步于此。

But the stories don't just stop there.

梅根书中的每个人都在某种程度上抵制了私募股权的影响。

Every person in Megan's book pushes back on the influence of PE in some way.

所以我想问，他们是如何做到的？

So I wanted to ask, how?

这正是书中应用程序部分的最后内容。

That's the last bit of the book in the app.

这是后记部分。

It's the after section.

你谈到了前进的方向，书中的人物小故事中，主要角色们都以某种方式对抗了私募股权。

You talk about ways forward, the vignettes in your book, the main characters have all fought against PE in some way.

你如何看待这种情况的发展？

How do you see that playing out?

所以我强烈觉得，我不希望这本书以‘这个系统太烂了’作为结尾。

So I felt strongly that I didn't wanna end the book on like, well, this system sucks.

我退出了，你知道的？

I'm out, you know?

而最自然的方式是，我也不想提出什么规定性的建议，因为我不是一名活动家。

And the most natural way to do that, in that I also didn't wanna do something prescriptive because I'm not an activist.

最自然的做法似乎是去关注那些事后采取行动的人。

The most natural way to do that felt like it was to look at people who were doing something after the fact.

我最终得出的结论是，如果我们真的想改变这个系统，就必须采取一种多方面的策略。

Where I ultimately came to is if we are serious about changing this system, it's going to have to be so multifaceted an approach.

所以，我书中的四位人物，以各自的方式‘反抗’着私募股权。

So the four characters in my book are, you know, quote unquote fighting back in several ways.

那位在玩具反斗城工作过的女性，第一次飞遍了整个国家，在养老基金委员会前发言，试图说服养老基金不要再投资私募股权，或者至少对它们已投资的私募股权基金施加更多压力。

The woman who worked at Toys R Us, like, flew around the entire country for the first time in her life, speaking in front of these pension boards, trying to convince pension funds no longer to invest in private equity, or at least to exert more pressure on the private equity funds they do invest in.

书中的媒体案例对我来说非常有趣，因为这并不是一种可以通过监管手段将私募股权赶出地方报纸的情形。

The media example in the book to me is really interesting, because that's not something where, like, there's no regulatory situation that is going to get private equity out of local newspapers.

这就意味着你必须从零开始重建商业模式。

That's just that you have to rebuild the business model from scratch.

因此，我关注的这个人就职于一家本地非营利初创机构，而这类机构目前正掀起一股热潮。

And so the person I focus on works for a local nonprofit startup of which there is, you know, a big wave right now.

这本身并不是万能解药，但确实是一个有趣的实验。

And that is not itself a silver bullet to anything, but is like an interesting experiment.

有人在进行这些实验，我认为值得引起一些关注。

And the fact that there are people making these experiments is, I think, a useful thing to shine some light on.

此外，还有诉讼案件和正在提出的法案。

There are also court cases, and there are proposed bills.

你知道的。

You know?

我认为，在当前的政治环境下，联邦层面不太可能对私募股权进行大量监管，但各州正在发生许多有趣的事情。

I don't think in our current political climate, there's going to be a lot of regulation of private equity on the federal level, but there are lots of interesting things happening in various states.

目前，尤其是在医疗保健领域，因为在马萨诸塞州和宾夕法尼亚州发生了重大的私募股权灾难后，这两个州——都是蓝州——迅速认真地开始推行监管。

Right now, especially in health care, because after big private equity disasters in Massachusetts and Pennsylvania, those states, you know, both blue states, real quick got very serious about doing regulation.

因此，读完这本书后，我并没有对从私募股权手中夺回一点主动权感到完全绝望。

And so I didn't come away from the book feeling totally hopeless about the chances of clawing a little bit back from private equity.

我不认为这个系统会很快消失，也不觉得它非得消失不可。

I don't think the system is going to disappear anytime soon, nor do I feel particularly strongly that it needs to.

但经过几年的报道，我确实认为这个系统已经严重失灵，而有一些人正在做一些有趣的事情，似乎正在获得一些势头来应对这个问题。

But I think after several years of reporting, I certainly came away thinking this system is very broken, and that here are some people doing some interesting things that seem to be gaining some momentum to do something about it.

对我来说，关键的解决方案似乎是重新连接输入和输出。

It feels to me like the the big solve is somehow connecting the inputs and the outputs once again.

对吧？

Right?

我们在节目中采访过亿万富翁。

We talked to billionaires on the show.

我内心有一部分觉得，公平竞争嘛。

There's a part of me that says, you know, fair play.

如果你真的在运营谷歌，而谷歌确实存在，你的目标是在谷歌有竞争对手的市场中获胜，那没问题。

If if you actually run Google and Google exists and your goal is to operate Google and win in a market where Google has competitors, fine.

对吧？

Right?

至少在那里，我能把输入和输出联系起来。

Like at least I can connect the input and the output there.

嗯。

Mhmm.

很多人喜欢谷歌。

A lot of people like Google.

你有动力把谷歌做得很好。

You're motivated to make Google pretty good.

很好。

Great.

嗯。

Mhmm.

私募股权的核心就是割裂输入和输出。

PE is all about disconnecting the inputs and the outputs.

如果你能挥动魔杖解决这个问题，你会怎么做？

If you could wave a magic wand and just solve that problem, how would you do it?

我的意思是，我基本上要抄袭伊丽莎白·沃伦的观点。

I mean, I'm just going to essentially plagiarize Elizabeth Warren here.

多年来，她一直提出《停止掠夺华尔街法案》，旨在监管私募股权。

She, for several years now, has introduced this Stop Wall Street Looting Act, which would regulate PE.

总的来说，这可能会基本上让私募股权无法存在。

All told, would probably regulate PE basically out of existence.

但我认为其中一部分是

But the part of the that I find The

魔杖就是让它消失。

magic wand is making it go away.

只是要

Just to be

我的意思是，是的。

mean, yes.

但这一法案中最让我觉得最有说服力的部分其实非常简单。

But but the the single part of that build that I find the most I find the case for it the most compelling is actually pretty simple.

杠杆收购的基础是你借入大量资金，而作为私募股权公司，你无需负责偿还这些债务。

So the the basis of leveraged buyouts is you borrow all this money, and you, as a private equity firm, are not responsible for paying the money back.

只有被收购的公司本身才需要偿还。

Only the portfolio company itself is.

因此，最终的结果是你让自己的被投公司背负沉重的债务负担。

And so what ends up happening is you bury your own portfolio company under this mountain of debt.

她的法案中有一项内容就是禁止这种做法。

And one component of her bill is you can't do that anymore.

你必须要有真金白银的投入。

You have to have skin in the game.

再回到我之前对私募股权和风险投资的区分，没人会认为，如果你是风投，投资一家公司时却没有任何风险承担。

And again, you know, going back to my distinction between private equity and venture capital, nobody would ever think that if you're a VC and you invest money in a company, that you don't have something on the line there.

但如果你是私募股权公司，实际上你承担的风险却非常小。

But if you're a PE firm, you really don't have much on the line.

如果你把公司逼破产，你能赚到的钱是有限的，但你也很难亏钱，因为你对这些贷款不负责任。

There's a limit to how much you will make if you drive the company out of business, but it's also pretty hard to lose money because you're just not responsible for those loans.

所以，如果我要提出一项政策改变，我会说，很好。

And so I think if there were one policy change I would make, I would just say, great.

好吧。

Okay.

你必须对投资组合公司所借的贷款承担法律责任。

You are legally responsible for the loans that your portfolio company takes out.

我觉得你绝对应该写一本关于风险投资行业及其所创造的市场环境的下一本书。

I feel like you definitely have to write your next book on the venture capital industry and the the market conditions it has created.

是的。

Yeah.

因为你在这里提出的对比真的很有意思。

Because that is a really interesting contrast that you're making there.

是的。

Yeah.

不。

No.

风险投资对我来说非常有趣。

I VC is fascinating to me.

现在我可能对风险投资过于乐观了，因为我看到了明显的区别，而且我对人们将两者混为一谈有本能的反感。

And it's like, now I'm probably too rosy on VC because I just see such a distinction, and because I have such a knee jerk reaction to people conflating the two.

所以，如果风险投资界发生任何负面新闻，这些人就会@我，说：‘CC，这是私募股权。’

So if there's, like, a negative story that happens in VC world, all of these people will tag me in it and be like, CC, that's private equity.

我会说：不。

And I'm like, no.

好吧。

Okay.

是两回事。

Different thing.

但我对风险投资体系非常感兴趣，因为说实话，我对它了解得还不够。

But I am very interested in the VC system because I don't, you know, I don't know enough about it.

是的。

Yeah.

好吧，梅根，等你写完你的VC书籍时我再回来。

Well, Megan, I have to come back when you write your VC book.

现在先这样，完美。

For now Perfect.

这本书叫《坏公司：私募股权与美国梦的终结》。

The book is Bad Company Private Equity and the Death of the American Dream.

我强烈推荐这本书。

I highly recommend it.

就像我说的，这是一本很有趣的读物。

It is like I said, it's a it's a fun read.

它会让你非常生气，但读起来很有趣，我真的很享受。

It will make you very mad, but it's a fun read and I really enjoyed it.

谢谢你的阅读，梅根。

Thanks for reading on, Megan.

谢谢你，尼拉。

Thank you, Neelay.

这本书名为《坏公司：私募股权与美国梦的终结》，将于6月10日上市，你可以在任何购书平台预订。

The book is Bad Company Private Equity and the Death of the American Dream, and it's out on June 10 to order from wherever you like to buy your books.

我要感谢梅根今天抽出时间参与《解码器》节目，也感谢大家的收听。

I'd like to thank Megan for taking time to join me on Decoder today, and thank you for listening.

希望你们喜欢这期节目。

I hope you enjoyed it.

如果你对本集内容，或任何其他话题有任何想法，欢迎给我们留言。

If you'd to let us know what you thought about this episode or really anything else at all, drop us a line.

你可以发送邮件至 decoder@theverge.com。

You can email us at decoder@theverge.com.

我们确实会阅读每一封邮件。

We really do read all the emails.

或者你也可以在Threads或Blue Sky上直接联系我。

Or you can hit me up directly on threads or blue sky.

我们还有TikTok和Instagram账号。

We also have a TikTok and an Instagram.

请前往decoder pod关注我们。

Check them out there at decoder pod.

如果你喜欢Decoder，请分享给你的朋友，并在你收听播客的平台订阅我们。

If you like decoder, please share it with your friends and subscribe wherever you hear podcasts.

Decoder由The Verge制作，属于Vox Media播客网络的一部分。

Decoder is production of the Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network.

我们的制片人是Kate Cox和Nick Stadt。

Our producers are Kate Cox and Nick Stadt.

我们的编辑是Ursa Wright。

Our editor is Ursa Wright.

Decoder的片头音乐由Break Master Cylinder创作。

The Decoder music is by Break Master Cylinder.

我们下次再见。

We'll see you next time.