萨尔·可汗对人工智能不会摧毁教育持乐观态度

在Carvana买车真是太简单了。我还能通过他们办理融资。我就...哇，等等。你是说融资？

Buying a car in Carvana was so easy. I was able to finance it through them. I just Woah. Wait. You mean finance?

是的，融资。我预先获得了Carvana汽车贷款的资格，输入了我的条款，然后从数千辆好车中挑选，全都在我的预算内。这很酷，但通过Carvana融资真是太容易了。融资。

Yeah. Finance. Got prequalified for a Carvana auto loan, entered my terms, and shot from thousands of great car options all within my budget. That's cool, but financing through Carvana was so easy. Financed.

搞定。而且我明天就能从他们的Carvana自动售货机取车了。融...资。对，我就是这么说的。

Done. And I get to pick up my car from their Carvana vending machine tomorrow. Fi nanced. Right. That's what I said.

你可以花时间试着念对‘融资’这个词，或者你今天就可以实际融资并在上面买车

You can spend time trying to pronounce financing, or you can actually finance and buy your car today on

Carvana。融资需经信用审批。可能适用附加条款和条件。

Carvana. Financing subject to credit approval. Additional terms and conditions may apply.

AI代理变得越来越令人印象深刻。你可能都没意识到你现在正在听一个AI说话。我们全天候工作以解决客户咨询。没有等待音乐，没有固定答案，没有挫败感。访问sierra.ai了解更多。

AI agents are getting pretty impressive. You might not even realize you're listening to one right now. We work twenty four seven to resolve customer inquiries. No hold music, no canned answers, no frustration. Visit sierra.ai to learn more.

每天走一万步、吃五份水果蔬菜、睡八小时有什么共同点？它们都是健康的选择。但所有更健康的选择真的都有回报吗？通过CVS Caremark的处方计划，它们确实有。他们的计划设计为您的会员提供更多选择，从而让您的会员有更多方式开始、坚持和管理他们的药物。

What do walking 10,000 steps every day, eating five servings of fruits and veggies, and getting eight hours of sleep have in common? They're all healthy choices. But do all healthier choices really pay off? With prescription plans from CVS Caremark, they do. Their plan designs give your members more choice, which gives your members more ways to get on, stay on, and manage their meds.

这有助于您的企业控制成本，因为更健康的会员对企业更有利。访问cmk.co/access了解更多关于帮助您的会员坚持用药的信息。那是cmk.c0/access。

And that helps your business control your costs because healthier members are better for business. Go to cmk.co/access to learn more about helping your members stay adherent. That's cmk.c0/access.

大家好，我是Neil I。今年夏天我休假了，我把Decoder交给了行业里的一群朋友，他们以不同于我们的方式思考我们在Decoder上讨论的相同话题。我的目标是让每个人都有机会进行他们通常不一定会有对话。所以我对我们的下一位客座主持人真的很兴奋。

Hey, everybody. It's Neil I. I'm off this summer on Prince's leave, and I've turned Decoder over to a bunch of my friends from around the industry who think about the same things we cover on Decoder in different ways. My goal is to give everyone a chance to have conversations they wouldn't normally have necessarily. So I'm really excited about our next guest host.

是Hank Green，TikTok和YouTube的明星，也是Complexly的CEO，那是所有这些频道背后的视频制作公司。这实际上是Hank第二次主持Decoder。他去年客串主持了节目并采访了我，那非常尴尬，也是我们最受欢迎的剧集之一。在Hank这次主持的第一集中，他将与可汗学院的创始人和CEO Sal Khan讨论在线学习的现状，当然还有生成式AI在未来教育中将扮演的角色。

It's Hank Green, star of TikTok and YouTube and CEO of Complexly, the video production company behind all those channels. This is Hank's second time in the host Triad Decoder actually. He guest hosted the show last year and interviewed me, which was deeply embarrassing and also one of our most popular episodes. For Hank's first episode during this run, he's gonna be talking to Khan Academy founder and CEO, Sal Khan, about the state of online learning. And of course, the role generative AI is gonna play in the future of education.

汉克来了。

Here's Hank.

大家好，欢迎来到《解码者》。我是汉克·格林，Complexly的联合创始人，我们制作了SciShow、Crash Course以及其他许多教育类YouTube频道。我还是一名作家、TikTok创作者，也可以说是网络红人。这些年来你可能在互联网上见过我的面孔。或许你还记得去年我反客为主，在尼尔自己的节目上采访了他——毕竟还有谁比尼尔·帕特尔更适合作为《解码者》的嘉宾呢？

Hello, and welcome to Decoder. This is Hank Green, cofounder of Complexly, where we make SciShow and Crash Course and a bunch of other educational YouTube channels. I'm also an author and a TikToker and what you might call a poster. You might have seen my face on the Internet over the years. And you might also remember last year when I turned the tables on Neelai and interviewed him on his own show because what better decoder guest than Neelai Patel.

那次经历非常愉快，以至于他们再次邀请我回来。这次，我将代替正在休陪产假的尼利主持几期《解码者》。既然不能采访尼利（否则就失去意义了），我特意邀请了一些杰出人士参与对话。而今天这位嘉宾，实在让我兴奋不已。

That was a lot of fun, and it was so much fun that they've brought me back again. This time, I'm stepping in for Neeli to host a few Decoder episodes while he's out on paternal leave. And because I cannot interview Neeli, that would defeat the whole point. Instead, I found some really great people to bring on the show to have conversations with. And today, I'm extremely excited about this one.

我要对话的是一位非常特别的客人，在线教育领域的同行老友——可汗学院创始人兼CEO萨尔·可汗。萨尔其实是尼利2020年在《解码者》采访的第二位嘉宾，而如今时过境迁。你可能早已听说过可汗学院——虽然公司正式成立于2008年2月，但萨尔早在2006年2月（YouTube创立仅一年后）就在个人账号上传了首个教学视频。

I'm talking with a very special guest, someone who I've known for quite a while as what you might call a colleague in the online educational community. It's Saul Khan, the founder and CEO of Khan Academy. Saul was actually Neillai's second ever guest on Decoder back in 2020, and, well, a whole lot has changed since then. So you've probably heard the name Khan Academy by now at some point. The company was officially founded in 02/2008, but Saul actually posted his first educational YouTube video to his account in 02/2006, just a year after YouTube was created.

他比我兄弟俩的首个YouTube视频还早上传约一年，令人佩服。萨尔深耕近二十年，亲历了在线视频生态与教育行业的协同发展，这正是我邀请他重返节目的原因。我想探讨的不仅是运营全球最大资金最雄厚的教育非营利组织在后疫情时代的状态，更想了解人工智能将如何彻底重塑教育形态。过去几年我始终关注AI与教育的交汇点，在ChatGPT发布三周年之际，这种技术既令我着迷又深感不安。

He even beat me and my brother by about a year to our first YouTube upload, which is impressive. So Saul has been around for a long time, and he has seen the growth of the online video ecosystem alongside the online education industry up close for nearly two decades, which is precisely why I wanted to have him back on the show. I wanna ask Saul not just what it's like running Khan Academy as one of the biggest and most well funded educational nonprofits in the world in the aftermath of the pandemic, but also how it's all about to change in really dramatic ways due to artificial intelligence. I have been thinking about the intersection of AI and education a lot myself over the last few years. And as we're coming up on the three year anniversary of the launch of ChatGPT, it's something that has me equal parts fascinated and terrified.

因为一切发展得太快，而我们才刚刚开始应对这项技术对课堂的真正影响。萨尔对这些难题的解答将会令人惊喜，相信你会收获颇丰——至少我是如此。好了，现在有请可汗学院CEO萨尔·可汗。

Because it just seems like things are moving awfully quickly, and we're only just starting to really grapple with the effects of this technology on the classroom. I think you're gonna find some really surprising answers from Saul on these very hard questions, and I hope you'll learn a lot. I know I did. Okay. Khan Academy CEO, Saul Khan, here we go.

萨尔·可汗，作为可汗学院创始人兼CEO，欢迎重回《解码者》。非常高兴能与您对话，唯一遗憾的是不能畅谈三小时——我有太多问题想请教。首先，人们可能在不同阶段接触过可汗学院，毕竟它已存在很久了。

Saul Khan, you are the founder and CEO of Khan Academy. Welcome back to Decoder. I am so happy that I get to talk to you, and I'm the only thing that I'm not happy about is that I don't get to do it for three hours because I feel like there's so much I wanna ask. Can I start? I think that people probably have heard of Khan Academy or interacted with it in different moments of its history because now it has been around for a very long time.

能否请您描绘2025年可汗学院的现状？这可能与人们曾经看过的某个视频印象大不相同。我觉得大家并不清楚现在的规模究竟有多大。

Can you just give us a kind of, like, look at what Khan Academy is in 2025, which might be somewhat different from, you know, a video that some person watched at some point? I think people don't know how big you are, basically.

确实如此。从某些方面看，可汗学院的核心方向始终惊人地一致，但公众认知可能已发生变化。回溯十五二十年前，人们会联想到某个为表亲制作数学视频的家伙（就是我）。如今我们虽然仍保留视频等形式...

Oh, yeah. You know, in some ways, the true north of Khan Academy is is has been surprisingly consistent. But yes, the way people might perceive it has maybe changed. If you were to go back twenty, fifteen years, people would might associate it with math videos that some guy made for his cousin, me. Today, And I mean, we still have videos and things like that.

但我们的核心始终是：如何运用技术规模化实现理想中的世界级教育？作为非营利组织，我们的使命是'为任何人 anywhere 提供免费的世界级教育'。这包括个性化学习、精熟教育等理念——人们应当能充分练习并获得反馈。因此多年来，我们主要资源都投入在免费开放的软件平台上，由慈善资金支持运营。

But our true north has always been, how can we leverage technology to scale up what we think world class education could look like? Our mission statement as a nonprofit is free world class education for anyone anywhere. And these are ideas like personalization, mastery learning. People should be able to practice and get feedback as much as possible. So over the years, most of our resources have actually been on our software platform, which is free, available for everyone, philanthropically supported.

今天简单介绍一下，我们已覆盖50多种语言。最新数据显示注册用户数约1.8亿。与十五年前最大的不同在于，我们现在与许多学区建立了正式合作伙伴关系。虽然最初是直接面向用户的模式（现在仍然保留），但我们意识到要真正惠及全球学生，必须与学区合作。我们有大量效能研究表明这能提升学习成果，但对多数学生而言，必须在课堂环境中才能发挥最大效用。

Today, just to give you a snapshot, we're in 50 plus languages. I think the latest number is 180 something million registered users. And I think the big push that's very different from where we were fifteen years ago is we do a lot of formal partnerships with school districts. We started off as a very direct to consumer thing, which we still do, but we realized if we really wanna move the dial for real students everywhere, we have to work with their school districts. We have all these efficacy studies showing how it can improve their outcomes, but it really needs to be in a classroom setting for most students for it to work.

这太有意思了，因为我选择了完全相反的路径。我觉得：我们制作教学视频，用户可自行取用。但说实话，我完全不想参与向学校董事会推销或与行政人员打交道的流程。你们是如何开始涉足这个领域的？

Yeah, this is wild because I chose the exact opposite. I was like, Okay, we make YouTube videos for people that help them learn. And if people want to use them, they can use them. But man, do I not want to get involved with the process of selling something to a school board or dealing with administrators. How did how did you start to take that on?

作为略有涉猎的人，我必须说这确实是完全不同的业务模式——不同于开发科技产品或制作YouTube视频，需要真正介入并应对官僚体系。我认同你的观点，如果我们这样做，Complexly本可以产生更大影响力，但我们选择了保持创作愉悦感的道路。

Like, it's a very I mean, trust me as a person who's dabbled in it a little bit. It's a different business than building a tech product or making a YouTube video to actually get in there and interface with the bureaucracy a little bit. That is I mean, I I agree with you. I think that we would be at Complexly a more impactful organization if we if we did that, but we have we have chosen the path of personal, joy to not have to do it.

确实。我曾有类似顾虑，其他深思熟虑的人更是加重了这种担忧——'你们确定要这么做吗？'但现实是，我们的慈善捐助者和董事会始终推动我们朝这个方向发展。最初的推动力是：'你们很受欢迎，但如何证明实际效果？'于是我们开始进行效能研究。

Yes. And, you know, I I I felt I had some similar feelings, and I had other thoughtful people give me even more of those feelings. It's like, are you sure you wanna do this? But the reality is that this is, you know, this is what I found very promising about our structures that our philanthropists that were donating to Khan Academy and our board really were nudging us in this direction. They were saying, look, the first nudge was, okay, you're popular.

研究发现确实有效——不仅是视频教学（虽然视频是组成部分），当学生按自身节奏练习时，即便全年仅投入18小时（这个时长并不算多），这些孩子的学习进度能加速30%到50%。类似研究已有50多项。但董事会和慈善家随后提出新问题：'如何确保所有学生都能使用？'

A lot of people are using you, but how do we know it's working? And so we started running all these efficacy studies. Oh, look, it works. And when I say it works, more than the videos and the videos are part of it, but when students practice at their own pace and the studies we see, if they're even able to put in eighteen hours over a whole year. So that's not that much over a year.

答案就在于与学区合作。学区表示：'要系统化使用，你们需要提供支持培训、与名册系统集成、学区级数据看板，并满足所有无障碍指南。'于是我们意识到：若想真正推动州级、国家级乃至全球层面的变革，就必须建立这套地面运营体系。

These kids are accelerating thirty, forty, 50%, and there's been 50 plus studies like that. But then our board and the philanthropist said, okay, well, that's nice. It works. And you have a way to get to scale and you have a lot of teachers already using you, but how do you make sure all students are able to use you? And that's where the answer was school districts.

我们已实践七年，实际进展比我预期的更好。虽然过程复杂，但确实存在亟待填补的市场空白。

We went to school districts and they said, well, to use systemically, you got to give us support training, integration with our rostering systems, district district level dashboards. You have to meet all the accessibility guidelines. And that's when we said, Okay, if we're serious about moving the dial at a state, nation, global level, we have to build this ground game. And so we've been doing it for about seven years, but it's, in my

真的吗？不过仔细想想，我们这边其实也有类似感受。确实感觉这个领域存在待填补的空白。你认为可汗学院属于什么类型的组织？

mind, gone better than than I expected. Really? I mean, it's gone very well, but I guess I guess that's true of me as well. It does feel that there was a gap waiting to be filled a little bit. What kind of organization do you think you are?

你们不算纯粹的内容公司，是科技公司？教育科技公司？你如何定义可汗学院的属性？

You think you you're not really a content company. Do you think you're a tech company? Are you an ed tech company? How do think of Khan Academy?

我始终憧憬并将可汗学院定位为全球性学习机构——就像人们想到牛津或哈佛时的感觉：'哇，这些是传奇学府'，但传统教育难以规模化扩展。如果可汗学院能既保持学术权威性又实现规模化教育，这正是我们努力的方向，我也在持续说服他人认同这个愿景。

The way I've always aspired to think of Khan Academy, I've always daydreamed this way, and hopefully I'm convincing other people, to view us as a global learning institution. The same part of your brain that might think of an Oxford or at Harvard, and he's like, wow, those are storied institutions. But then part of your brain says, yeah, but they don't really scale. Their research scales, but their education side doesn't really scale. If Khan Academy could say, wow, it's like that.

希望在一百年后，人们会说，是的，这是我们世界的主要机构之一，但它具有可扩展性，质量高，价格非常亲民，可以说是免费或近乎免费。这就是我一直以来的追求。回想十五年前的实际运营阶段，我们主要以内容闻名。或许至今我们最知名的仍是内容。实际上我们拥有相当庞大的软件工程团队，围绕内容构建了各种配套系统——练习平台、数据仪表盘等等。

Hopefully in a hundred years, people say, yes, this is one of the major institutions of our world, but it scales, it's high quality, it's very affordable, arguably free or very close to free. So that's what I've always aspired to be. I think in real implementation fifteen years ago, we were known most for our content. Maybe we are still most known for our content. And then we actually have pretty large software engineering team to build everything around the content, the practice, the data dashboards, etcetera, etcetera.

现在人工智能或许在不久的将来就能创造内容。我认为我们正在转型——其实我们始终如此，但可以说现在更侧重于：如何建立既能提升校内教育上限，又能抬高校外教育底线的系统？这些系统可以是软件系统、AI系统，也可以是认证体系、学生互联网络。我们有个名为Schoolhouse的姊妹非营利组织提供点对点学业支持。总之，我们该如何构建能实现大规模高质量教育的系统？

Now AI might be able to create content in the not too far off future. I think we are turning, well, we've always been, but I would say there's even more weight being pulled on to the, how do we create systems that can help raise the ceiling inside of a school, but also raise the floor outside of a school? And those systems can be software systems, AI systems, but there also could be credentials, ways to connect students with each other. We have a sister nonprofit called Schoolhouse where there's peer to peer support. So yeah, how can we build these systems where we can do high scale, high quality education?

我想聊聊Schoolhouse和人工智能。我还想稍微回溯一下——当你开始做这件事时，是否考虑过这可能会成为一家公司或非营利组织？比如选择营利还是非营利的模式？

So I want to talk about Schoolhouse, and I want to talk about AI. I I still wanna talk a little bit about, like, the moment when you were starting to do this thing. Was there a thought in your head that this could be a company or it could be a nonprofit? Like, this could be for profit or nonprofit?

哦，当然考虑过。

Oh, yeah.

你是否做出了

Did you make

那是一个非常明确的选择。早期，我住在硅谷这边。2007年2月、2008年2月，有一些风投注意到了我，第一次谈话很有趣。他们说，嘿，我现在就给你开一张10万美元的支票。你辞职吧。

that It was a pretty explicit choice. In the early days, I was living out here in Silicon Valley. There were some VCs who took notice back in 02/2007, 02/2008, and the first conversation was fun. They said, Hey, I'll write a $100,000 check right now. You quit your job.

我们将把可汗学院创办成一个营利性机构。但第二次会议总是这样，好吧，我们来谈谈盈利模式，也许我们会做一些付费内容，或者做考试辅导。我们会对此收费。我并不是说这有什么错。我不想对那些采用这种模式的人摆出高高在上的姿态，但我只是想到了我从世界各地的人们那里获得了多少心理上的回报。

We'll start Khan Academy as a for profit. But then meeting two was always like, okay, let's talk about monetization and maybe we'll do some premium content or we'll do test prep. We'll charge for that. And I there's nothing wrong with that. I don't want to get too all high and mighty for anyone who does have a model like that, but I just thought about how much psychological reward I was getting from people all over the world.

你也会收到这样的反馈，嘿，谢谢你。那真的激励了我。那真的帮了我大忙。一旦你设置了付费墙，而且，是的，我确实有一个有点宏大的梦想，也许这可以成为——我经常引用艾萨克·阿西莫夫的《基地》系列——也许我可以成为像哈里·谢顿那样的人，创建一个新的基地，防止我们进入黑暗时代，或者也许它会让今天看起来像黑暗时代，因为每个人都将受到教育。所以我不想放弃那个梦想。

And you get this too, Hey, thank you. That really inspired me. That really helped me. And as soon as you put paywalls, and yeah, did have a bit of a grandiose dream that maybe this could be, I always cite the foundation series Isaac Asimov of maybe I could be something like a Harry Seldon that's creating the new foundation that will keep us from entering a dark ages or maybe it'll make today look like a dark ages because everyone's gonna get educated. So I didn't wanna give up on on that dream.

然后然后然后然后有

And and and and there was

那个非常那个非常冷静，一点也不一点也不宏大的树。非常罕见的人物。

That that very that very chill, not at all not at all grandiose tree. Very seldom figure.

为什么不呢？从我的角度来看，人们常说选择营利性机构的主要原因包括更容易获得资金支持，或许还能接触到更多人才——因为你可以用股权作为报酬，或者至少在理论上能支付更高的现金薪酬。虽然存在一种刻板印象（其中也有一定道理）认为非营利组织可能不够灵活或高效。我之前从未创办过非营利组织，但一直怀揣着一种不服输的心态（至今依然如此），我认为我们可以兼得两者之长：既能作为非营利组织坚守使命、尝试建立这个机构，同时也能吸引顶尖人才。

It's why not? And from my point of view, the main reasons that good reasons why people will often say go for profit is access to capital, maybe access to people because you can maybe pay them with equity or maybe you could at least in theory pay them a little bit more even cash wise. There's sometimes a stereotype which has some truth in it that nonprofits can maybe aren't quite as nimble or as fast. And I'd never started a nonprofit before, but I always had a little bit of a chip on my shoulder, still do that, Hey, I think we can get the best of both worlds. We can be a nonprofit, we can have this mission, we can try to build this institution, but we can also attract the best talent.

是的，我们无法提供股票期权，因为可汗学院没有股权结构——没有人拥有它，包括我自己。但我们可以提供优厚薪酬。我们能够像任何组织一样灵活运作，而且作为非营利组织还具有独特优势。比如我们拥有50种语言版本，其中许多语言的翻译都是无偿完成的。

Yes, we can't give them stock because there is no stock in Khan Academy. No one owns Khan Academy, I don't, but we can pay them well. You can run an organization like this as nimbly as any organization anywhere, but because we're a nonprofit, we have some advantages. We have 50 languages. We didn't pay to translate many of those languages.

志愿者们自发涌现。特别是在人工智能时代，人们往往对非营利组织抱有更多信任。世界上一些最优秀的人才并不追求成为亿万富翁——他们满足于中上阶层的生活水平，更渴望与志同道合者共同投身有意义的事业。因此我们成功吸引了许多非凡的人才。

People came out of the woodwork. People, especially in this time of AI, I think there's a bias to a little bit more trust. Some of the best people in the world, they're not in they they don't they don't wanna become billionaires. They're happy if they can have an upper middle class lifestyle and get to work on a on a fun mission with other cool people. So we've been able to attract some really amazing people.

你是否曾后悔没有选择营利模式？毕竟你成为了哈利·萨顿（注：指教育界传奇人物），却与亿万财富失之交臂？

Do you ever have a a moment of regret that you weren't didn't do for profit and that you, you know, you get to be Harry Sutton but you don't get to have a billion dollars?

在这段旅程中，我不得不进行大量募资。目前我们的预算是...

On this journey, I've had to raise a lot of money. I've, you know, we're we're we're on budget now is

（插话）压力很大吧？这就是你

pushing Yeah. That's just you

永远无法获得个人收益。我见过许多优秀的亿万富翁，没有他们的大额捐赠，可汗学院根本不可能存在。有几次——具体名字就不提了——其中几位是我们从小在读物上看到的人物，当年在我这样的中低阶层公寓里还幻想过'如果我有那么多钱会做什么'。而现在他们却对我说：'萨尔，我羡慕你'

never get any of it. Agrees and I've met many billionaires, wonderful billionaires. Khan Academy would not exist without these billionaires giving significant donations. And there's been a couple of moments where I won't name names, but a couple of these folks who, some of these are people you and I grew up reading about and we probably fantasize in our middle class houses or me and my lower middle class apartment saying, Oh, imagine if I had that much money, I would do this and this and this. Now, and they've told me, Hey, Sal, I envy you.

我当时心想：您怎么可能真的羡慕？我见过您的出行方式——而我刚刚才升级到高级经济舱。我们确实过着不同的生活，但他们的羡慕是真诚的。至今至少有三四人对我说过：'你真正找到了自己的激情所在，并且正在创造巨大影响'

And I'm like, You don't really envy. I've seen how you travel. You should see how, I just got upgraded to economy premium. This is, we have different, but they were very genuine and I've heard this from at least three or four folks now. They're like, you've really found your passion and it's really making a huge difference.

能参与这项事业已让我倍感幸运。这份价值远超金钱，我衷心感谢他们的捐赠使可汗学院成为可能。说实话，此刻即便有机会交换人生我也不愿意。当然，如果能多几百万美元可支配或许也不错

And I feel lucky just to be part of this journey. That counts for a lot and God bless them and what they do and God bless them for donating to Khan Academy, and making it possible. But I honestly wouldn't trade places at this point. Now, you know, could I figure out a way to spend a few more million dollars? Yeah, probably.

但说实话，就连这个念头其实也并不强烈

But actually, even that I don't really, you know.

你认为如果当时有投资者施压、追求市场份额之类的激励，是否可能产生积极影响，甚至扩大你的影响力？

Do you think that it could have had, like, a like a positive impact on the like, could it have increased your impact if you were, like, pushing for market share, pushing for all of that stuff with the sort of investor breathing down your neck kind of incentive?

某种程度上这个实验已经进行过了。有几个与可汗学院同期成立（时间相差不过几年）的组织，最著名的当属MOOC（大规模开放在线课程）。我认识许多创办者，他们都是非常优秀的人。

To some degree, the experiment has been run. There were several organizations that were, let's call it the same vintage as Khan Academy, plus or minus a few years. I would say most notably the MOOCs, the massively open online courses. And I know many of the people who started them. They're very good people.

他们不为牟利，而是为使命而战。但当时很多人说服他们——我也曾试图劝他们走非营利路线——说'不行，你拿不到资金'。

They weren't in it for the money. They were in it for mission. But they were convinced by people. And I was trying to convince them to go nonprofit. But no, you're not going get the capital.

'你不需要那些，应该选择营利模式'。如今现存MOOC机构的发展轨迹表明，他们并未实现最初理想（我并非贬低他们，他们仍在创造价值），但当初他们宣称的是'让大学教育民主化'。

You're not going to get the need that. Go for profit. And if you look at the MOOCs now, the ones that exist, they have fallen and I don't want to denigrate them. I think they're still doing things of impact. But they were about, let's democratize college education.

原本要做改变世界的事业，而现在现存机构大多转型为提供数据科学类认证培训。愿景明显收缩了——虽然仍在帮助特定人群，但远未实现高等教育民主化的理想。因此我认为，保持梦想的纯粹性是无价的。

Let's do something that's world changing. And now the ones that exist still have become let's do some certification postgraduate that might help some people transition into data science type of thing. And it's just a smaller vision. I mean, I'm sure they're still helping those people, but they haven't democratized higher education, I think, the way that they could. So when I look at that, I'm like, no, I think it's priceless to still have the dream alive.

实验结果表明可汗学院确实覆盖了大量受众并帮助了很多人。但有个流行观点认为非营利机构不够灵活、更难运作，需要协调更多利益相关方。你们是如何进行组织管理的？

The experiment has been run, and Khan Academy is very big in doing hitting a lot of eyeballs and and helping a lot of people. So but there is, like, there's this sort of a trope that a nonprofit is gonna be less nimble. It's gonna be harder to run. There's gonna be more stakeholders, more consensus building. How do you organize yourself?

可汗学院的组织架构是怎样的？你们如何将这种理念优先纳入体系设计中？

How is Khan Academy organized? Do you keep that as a priority? How is that built into the structure

说实话，在商学院时我有位同学（场景很滑稽：课堂案例讨论时他批评用自己名字命名机构是自恋行为，而他父亲恰巧用某大型金融公司命名了机构，引得全场哄笑）。当时我也觉得这种行为极度自恋。

of it? Fully honest, one of the reasons when I was in business school, I had a classmate. It was really funny because he was We had this case discussion and he was talking about how narcissistic it is for people to name organizations after themselves. And his dad, I won't name names, had named an organization after a very large financial company and everyone was laughing about it. But I remember that I was like, yeah, super narcissistic to do that.

但当可汗学院初具规模时（当时还不叫这个名称），我决定走非营利路线。我思考：如何确保缺乏安全感的自己不被轻易解雇？必须要有正当理由；如何在没有股权的情况下（我不像扎克伯格能控制Meta投票权）守护自己的愿景？

But then when Khan Academy started to become, it wasn't called Khan Academy. And I said, well, maybe this could be something, but I wanted to make it a nonprofit. I said, well, how do I make sure that my insecure side, how do I make sure that it's hard to fire me? They have to have good cause. How do I make sure that I have, there's no shares here.

最终发现，将名字冠名机构并成为其精神象征，确实有助于：第一，保持愿景聚焦；坦白说，这种方式确实有效。

I'm not like Mark Zuckerberg where I control the voting interests of Meta. So how do I, I have a vision, I think I do. How do I, well, my name on the door and becoming a certain quasi mascot of the organization, it has helped, one, keep it focused on the vision. Frankly, it's helped.

拥有一个愿景的来源很重要，这样当出现分歧时，人们知道该去哪里解决这些分歧

And having a source, having a source of the vision where people can if there's disagreement, people know where to go to get that disagreement

没错。

done. Exactly.

我的意思是，这可能不总是最有趣的工作，但确实需要有人来做。是的。

I mean, that's probably not always the funnest job to have, but it's a thing Yeah.

而且任何执行经理、CEO都必须承担部分这样的职责。特别是当一个组织需要重大转型时——比如我们现在讨论的AI，可汗学院在这方面做了很多调整。如果是一个没有创办这个组织、名字不在门牌上的人，很难做出这种程度的转型。幸运的是，我们有一个很棒的董事会。他们中很多人是主要慈善家，但也有一些只是对教育非常了解的人，他们以正确的方式推动我前进。

And and and any executive manager, CEO has to have some of that in their job. But especially when an organization needs to make big pivots on a you know, we might be talking about AI and Khan Academy has been doing a lot of pivoting there. It would have been very hard for someone who's didn't who start the organization, whose name's not on the door to be able to make that type of a pivot. And the lucky thing is we have a great board. Many of them are major philanthropists, but some of them are people who are just know a lot about education and they push me on all the right ways.

他们总是在推动我们触及需要帮助的孩子们等问题。在投资与预算超支之间的权衡，我们必须时刻认真考虑。但他们也看到，不仅是我，我们引进组织的很多人都是相当——我愿意相信是相当自律的管理者，还有工程师、设计师、项目经理和内容创作者。我会告诉我们的资助者（其中很多是成功的科技创业者）：按人均算，把我们现在的350人团队与硅谷或其他任何地方的350人团队相比。

They're always pushing, we reaching the kids who needed impact, etcetera? The trade off between investment and overstretching our budget, we have to think very seriously about that all the time. But they also see that not just myself, but a lot of the people that we've brought into the organization are pretty, I'd like to believe pretty disciplined managers that, and engineers and designers and project managers and content creators. And tell any of the and a lot of our funders are people who are successful tech entrepreneurs. I'll say, look, pound for pound, put our we're a large team now, three fifty people against any three fifty person team in Silicon Valley or anywhere else.

我认为你会发现同样优秀甚至更出色的人才、更灵活的系统等等。他们也看到了这一点，这让我们保持专注。

I think you're going to find as good or better talent, nimbler systems, etcetera, etcetera. And they see that. And so that's what keeps us focused that way.

那么350人，从董事会往下是如何组织的？

So three fifty people, how is that organized from board on down?

有董事会。我在其中。但显然，我也向董事会汇报。然后我的直接下属比一般人多，我有14个直接汇报人。

There's the board. I'm on it. But obviously, I report to the board, too. And then I have more than your average direct reports. I have about four I have 14 direct reports.

老兄，你工作真辛苦。嗯，你知道，这就是事情的关键。不过我学到了：如果你找对了人，那些向我汇报的人，他们在职业生涯中都相当资深。我不需要花很多时间处理那些关于'我的人生该怎么办'之类的焦虑对话。

The Man, you work hard. Well, you know, this is the thing. I learned, though. If you have the right people in the seats, the the the you know, like the the people who who report to me, you know, they're fairly senior in their careers. I don't have to spend a lot of time with like angst, like what am I gonna do with my life type of conversations.

所以是的。我们有克里斯汀担任首席学术官，她还负责产品管理设计团队和内容团队。我们有一位很棒的CTO，我们的工程团队是最大的。我们还有一个所谓的外部关系团队，负责慈善事务，也包括与学区的所有合作工作，这对我们来说也是一个收入来源，是赚取的收入来源。

So Yeah. You know, I have we have you know, Kristen is our chief academic officer. She also runs the product management design teams, content teams. We have a great CTO for our engineering team is the largest. We have a what we call external relations team, which is our philanthropy, but also all of this work we're partnering with districts, and that's a revenue source for us too, an earned revenue source.

我们有可汗学院儿童版。显然，我们有内部委员会，包括首席财务官和所有内部职能部门。然后还有Schoolhouse.World，名义上我是那里的首席运营官。

We have Khan Academy Kids. You know, we have, obviously, internal council. We have our CFO and all the internal functions. Then we have schoolhouse. World, which I'm nominally the COO.

我在那里更像是执行主席的角色，但名义上首席运营官向我汇报。这大致是我们的组织架构，不过这里各方面都有非常优秀的领导团队。所以我可以在不同部门间穿梭，提出'你们考虑过这个吗？'的问题——而他们通常已经考虑过了。偶尔，因为大家埋头工作、身处细节之中，我可以跳出来提醒：'看看整体局面'。

I'm more of like an executive chairman there, but the COO there nominally reports into me. So that's kind of how we're generally organized, but there's really good leadership across the board here. So I get to jump around and say, Hey, have you thought about this? And they usually have. Or, well, and every now and then, because people have their heads down and they're in the forest, I can kind of surface and say, Hey, but look at the Or they're in the trees.

我就会说：看看整个森林的形势，我们需要更果断地调整方向。

I'm like, Look at the forest here. We gotta pivot a little bit harder.

我们需要短暂休息一下，马上回来。

We need to take a quick break. We'll be right back.

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Support for this show comes from IcyHot. There's a reason comebacks feel so good because there's nothing worse than pain and self doubt. But when you overcome it and get back to doing what you do best, best, that's the best feeling in the world. You push your body to its limits and discover new ones. It's a satisfying feeling and it doesn't come for free.

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本节目由LinkedIn赞助。作为小企业主，您时刻心系业务。因此在招聘时，您需要与您同样努力的合作伙伴——这个招聘伙伴就是LinkedIn招聘平台。当您下班时，LinkedIn才开始工作。

Support for this show comes from LinkedIn. When you're a small business owner, your business is on your mind twenty four seven. So when you're hiring, you need a partner that works just as hard as you do. That hiring partner is LinkedIn jobs. When you clock out, LinkedIn clocks in.

LinkedIn让免费发布职位、分享至人脉网络、一站式管理优质候选人变得简单。新功能可协助撰写职位描述，并通过深度候选人洞察快速触达目标人群。可选择免费发布或付费推广，推广职位获得的优质申请量增加三倍。归根结底，对小企业最重要的就是候选人质量。

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免费发布职位请访问linkedin.com/partner。条款与条件适用。

That's linkedin.com/partner to post your job for free. Terms and conditions apply.

我们继续与可汗学院CEO萨尔·可汗对话。节目前，我们深入探讨了管理解码问题，以及难以置信的是萨尔居然有14位直接下属，这确实很多。现在我想请教他关于Schoolhouse——可汗学院在新冠疫情期间推出的在线辅导平台，以及它如何融入整体组织架构。所以14位直接下属相当于14个不同部门，再加上Schoolhouse

We're back with Khan Academy CEO, Saul Khan. Right before the break, Saul and I were digging into the decoder questions and how Saul, believe it or not, has 14 direct reports, which is a whole lot. But now I wanted to ask him about Schoolhouse, Khan Academy's online tutoring platform he launched during the COVID pandemic, and how that fits into the broader organization. So 14 direct reports, and that that's a that's 14 different departments, kind of, and then Schoolhouse

是的。我把Schoolhouse也算在内。这基本就是我日常沟通的核心人群。确实包含不同部门加上财务、法务等运营组织必须处理的内部事务。

Yeah. I I throw Schoolhouse in there. I mean, just, you know, my universe of people that I'm talking to on a on a regular basis. But, yeah, that's it's different departments plus finance, legal, you know, a lot of the internal stuff that you have to do in running an organization.

那么我们来谈谈Schoolhouse。我觉得人们可能不知道这是可汗学院的一部分，或者不知道你们在做这件事。我认为它非常令人印象深刻，既酷又聪明，而且只有您能成功实现。请介绍一下Schoolhouse。

So let's talk a little bit about Schoolhouse. I I think that people don't know maybe this is part of Khan Academy or that this is a thing that you do. I find it extremely impressive and and so cool and so smart. And, like, and, like, you're the only one who could have pulled it off. Tell me about Schoolhouse.

好的。很高兴听您这么说。有趣的是，Schoolhouse上周还引发了一些争议。

Yes. Well, no. I'm happy to hear that. It's funny. There's been a little bit of a controversy at Schoolhouse as of last week.

我可以谈谈这个，我认为这是有益的争议。

I can tell you about that, which I I think it's good controversy.

我不...这个大概五周后才会发布，所以到时候就已经是六周前的旧闻了。

I don't This is gonna publish, like, five weeks from now, so it'll be six weeks old by then.

最近确实存在一些争议，我们应该谈谈这个。但我的想法一直是：人们能从可汗学院学习固然很好，但互相学习呢？课堂上最成功的实践总是部分孩子使用可汗学院，同时老师组织学生结对学习，让他们也能彼此借鉴。

In the recent past, there's been controversy. We should talk about that. But the the idea was I've always thought, hey, it's great if people can learn from Khan Academy, but what about learning from each other? And the best implementations in classrooms have always been some kids using Khan Academy, but their teachers pairing kids up. They're also learning from each other.

疫情爆发时我说，现在正是大规模尝试这类计划的好时机。于是我们做了个小规模试点：创建一个网站让年轻人（其实不限年龄的学习者）可以提出需要帮助的内容，然后寻找经过材料验证的志愿者——我们需要审核机制。这些志愿者会出于善心免费提供辅导。Zoom捐赠了大量许可，我们就这样试运行了。

And when the pandemic hit, I said, well, now is the moment to try to do something like this at scale. So we ran a little pilot and we said, what if we created a website where young people, actually people who are learning, they don't have to be young, could say what they need help with. And then we could find other volunteers who can validate that they know the material, so we needed a vetting process. But then they would tutor these people for free, just out of the goodness of their heart. And Zoom donated a bunch of licenses, we tried it out.

这是个非常乌托邦的想法，但在几百人规模下确实可行。后来我们获得慈善资金，将Schoolhouse设立为独立于可汗学院的非营利组织。说实话，分开主要是为了让两者专注各自使命。确实也考虑到Zoom实时交流可能带来的法律责任风险波及可汗学院。

It's a very Utopian idea, but it worked at the scale of a few 100 people. So then we got some philanthropic funding and we set up Schoolhouse as a separate nonprofit from Khan Academy. Honestly, the only reason to do that is just to keep the twos focused on what they each needed to do. Yeah. There was a there was a little bit of fear of liability of people having real conversations on Zoom and what might happen to, you know, hit Khan Academy liability.

所以保持独立运营。这个名字的灵感来源于我2011年出版的《一所世界学校》一书，于是就有了Schoolhouse.world这个名称。虽然未来几年可能会调整使其更贴近可汗学院。

So we we kept them as separate you know, the the name was somewhat inspired. I wrote a book back in 2011, one world schoolhouse. So we said, oh, schoolhouse. World. Although we might change it in some ways in the next couple of years, bring it closer to Khan Academy.

实施过程中首先面临资质认证问题——比如如何确认某人掌握微积分？我们设计了机制：可汗学院已有随机生成的不同测试，但无法验证应试者身份。于是我们要求认证者在面部录像和屏幕录制环境下参加测试，并口头解释解题思路。

But we started doing it, one of the immediate things was like, how do we certify someone? How do we know that they know calculus, for example? So we created a mechanism. Khan Academy already has assessments that are different every time, but we don't prove that it's you who did it. And so we said, what if you take the Khan Academy assessment while it records your face, records the screen, you explain your reasoning out loud.

全程口述解题过程。

You talk through it.

系统会判断是否达到90%正确率且符合规范（不能东张西望或作弊），视频再由陌生同行评审确认无违规行为。通过微积分第一单元认证后，经过培训即可开始辅导之旅。当时芝加哥大学主动联系说：疫情让一切充满变数，能否将你们的认证用于大学申请？

And then Khan Academy will say whether you hit 90% and you're following a protocol, you can't be looking around and doing shady things. And then that video gets peer reviewed by people you don't know to just make sure you're not doing shady things. And then yes, if you've got 90% on that unit, we say, you know unit one of calculus, you can now begin your tutoring journey and there's some training that you go there. And when we were doing that, University of Chicago reached out and said, Hey, everything's up in the air with the pandemic. Could we use your certification for college admissions?

我们同意了。随后MIT、哥伦比亚、加州理工等40多所高校——耶鲁、布朗等名校都在名单上——都表示认可Schoolhouse认证作为学术能力证明。

We said, you can. Then MIT and Columbia and Caltech and now there's a list on website of 40 plus universities, Yale, Brown, you can name them. They all said, hey, you could use schoolhouse certifications as a way to prove your mastery.

人们总问未来有了AI要如何考核？其实萨尔康早就解决了

People are like, how are we going to do assessments in the future with AI and everything? And it's like, Salcon's already gonna do

对于映射来说，人工智能将增加一个全新的层面。我认为我们将能够进行一些基于模拟的评估之类的工作。一个有趣的例子，我大约三周前遇到了一位来自阿富汗的年轻女性。在阿富汗长大的她显然无法上学，可汗学院就成了她的学校。

that for mapping. AI is gonna add a whole other layer. I mean, I think we're gonna be able to do some nice simulation based assessments and things like that. And a fun example, I just met this young woman from Afghanistan like three weeks ago. And she, when obviously she could not go to school going up in Afghanistan, Khan Academy was her school.

塔利班占领喀布尔后，她的家人成为巴基斯坦的难民。她仍然没有上学，但她一直在学习。她想去麻省理工学院。她申请了。麻省理工学院对她的申请印象深刻，但她没有文凭，没有正式成绩单，没有SAT成绩，什么都没有，没有AP成绩。

Taliban take over Kabul, her family become refugees in Pakistan. She's still not in school, but she's been learning all this time. She wants to go to MIT. She applies. MIT is really impressed with her application, but she has no diploma, no formal transcript, no SAT scores, nothing, no AP scores.

他们问，你能在Schoolhouse上验证自己吗？她做到了。她就凭这个被录取了。我刚遇到她。她在硅谷这边参加了一个类似全国顶尖AI工程师的Y Combinator活动。

And they're like, can you go on Schoolhouse and validate yourself? And she did. And she got in based on that. I just met her. She was at this Y Combinator for the top AI engineers in the country type of thing out here in Silicon Valley.

我和我妻子带她出去吃了顿便饭。我当时就想，是的，这就是Schoolhouse的认证愿景。听到这样的故事非常有力。最近，一些争议开始出现。我认为这是有益的争议。

And my wife and I took her out to a little meal. And I was like, yes, this is the certification vision of Schoolhouse. It's pretty powerful to hear stories like that. Most recently, and this is where some of the controversy started coming. I think it's good controversy.

我们去找了同样的大学招生人员，我们说，看，这个认证...而且他们不仅仅对认证感兴趣。他们也对那些辅导别人的孩子感兴趣，因为你可以想象，如果你认证了自己精通微积分，然后去辅导微积分

We went to the same college admissions folks and we said, look, this certification and and they weren't just interested in the certification. They were also interested in the kids who tutored because you could imagine if you certified yourself in calculus and then tutored calculus

不。这就像是，这就像是，到底是什么激励人们真正去做辅导呢？因为这不是有偿的。但是，作为一个小时候辅导过别人的人，我可以告诉你，这不仅能让你更透彻地掌握知识，还能把它写进你那小小的简历里，或者

No. This is like this is like one of the like the like, who what incentivizes people to actually do the tutoring? Because you're not this isn't isn't, like, paid. And but but, like, I can say as a person who tutored kids when I was a kid, like, that's so powerful in just knowing the material better, if not also putting that on your little kiddo resume or

不管他们

whatever they

让他们做这些事。

make them do these things.

如果你是这些大学之一，你知道，很多人怀疑有人会钻空子等等，但如果年轻的小汉克主持了100场化学辅导课，并且拥有4.8分（满分5分）的评分。还有这些评价说，我从汉克那里学到的比在学校还多，或者他让我对化学感到兴奋。是的，如果我是这些大学之一，我想要小汉克在我的校园里，那正是我想要的学生。但我们去了这些大学并问，还有什么可能有价值？他们说，嗯，这可能太难了，但如果我们能让学生练习并就困难的话题进行对话呢？

If you're one of these colleges and, you know, there's a lot of cynicism around people gaming it, etcetera, but as someone who if young Hank ran a 100 sessions tutoring chemistry and he has a 4.8 out of five rating. And there are these quotes saying, I learned more from Hank than I did at my school, or he makes me excited about chemistry. Yeah, if I'm one of these universities, like, I want Hank on my campus, that's the kid I want. But we went to these universities and said, what else could be of value? And they said, well, this is probably too hard, but what if we could give students practice and having dialogue about hard subjects?

我们不希望他们淡化自己的热情，但我们希望他们能够进行建设性对话，因为现在每个人都活在自己的泡泡里，地理泡泡、社会经济泡泡、社交媒体泡泡。所以就在几个月前，我们推出了这个对话平台，光是听我描述可能就会让大多数人感到焦虑。我们让年轻人就棘手问题填写调查问卷，移民、以色列-巴勒斯坦、平权法案、枪支管制。我还可以列出更多。这些是我们不敢在晚宴上谈论的话题。孩子们填写调查问卷，我们把他们与持相反观点的孩子配对，然后他们进行对话。

We don't want them to water down their passions, but we want them to be able to have constructive dialogue because everyone's living in their bubble now, geographic bubble, socioeconomic bubble, social media bubbles. And so that's when we launched only a couple of months ago, this dialogues platform where most people would get anxiety just as I'm about to describe this. We make young people fill out surveys on tough issues, immigration, Israel Palestine, affirmative action, gun control. I could go down the list. The stuff that we are afraid to talk about at dinner parties And kids fill out a survey, we pair them with kids with the opposite viewpoint and they have a conversation.

在那次对话之后，通常持续约五十分钟，他们会填写一份问卷：你是否觉得对方听到了你的声音（无需说服对方）？你认为对方能代表你的观点吗？你能代表对方的观点吗？有什么反馈想给对方吗？可以是建设性的，也可以是积极的反馈。

And then after that conversation, it usually goes about fifty minutes, they fill out a questionnaire on, do you feel that the other person was you don't have to convince them, but do you feel like the other person heard you? Do you think they can represent your point of view? Can you represent their point of view? Is there anything any feedback you want to give to that other person? It could be constructive or it can be positive feedback.

你可以参加任意多次对话。然后在你的成绩单上，只会显示你参与了多少次对话，不会注明你的观点立场。你可以选择突出任何内容，比如：嘿，汉克说萨尔真的让你对以前从未认真考虑过的不同观点打开了思路。

You do as many sessions as you want. And then on your transcript, it just says how many sessions you participated in. It doesn't say what your point of view was. And you can highlight anything you choose to highlight. Hey, Hank said that Sal was he really opened your mind to a different viewpoint that you never took seriously before.

无论是什么，我都可以把它放在我的成绩单上。如果我愿意，我可以与许多同样的大学分享这些。《纽约时报》的一篇专栏文章引发了争议，认为这不过是大学申请造假的又一种手段。内特·西尔弗发推说，这是给无聊孩子的平权行动。

Whatever it is, I could put that on my transcript. And if I want to, I could share that with many of these same universities. The controversy is there's a New York Times op ed. It's like, this is just another thing to fake college admissions. And Nate Silver tweeted, this is affirmative action for boring kids.

我突然觉得，不，这怎么会无聊呢？愿意就这些话题进行开放对话，并且能够以建设性的方式进行，这一点都不无聊。我们看到的是，这些孩子并没有保留，他们坚持自己的立场，但以尊重的方式表达。

And all of sudden, I'm like, no, how can it be boring? How can it be boring? It's very not boring to be willing to have an open conversation about these topics, but being able to do it constructively. And what we've seen, these kids aren't holding back. They're holding their positions, but they're doing it in respectful ways.

关于这个‘给无聊孩子的平权行动’，我唯一想说的是——那只是一条推文。你知道吧？没错，那太像一条推文了。我真是受够了推文。

All I all I have to say about this is affirmative action for boring kids is that's a tweet. You know? Exactly. That's like such a tweet. And I'm I'm so tired of tweets.

是的。我是说，我也发推，别误会。我发，我就在这里发。

Yes. Like, I I mean, I'm a tweeter. Don't get me wrong. I'm a I'm a I post. Right here, I post.

我发得太多了。我想过那种远离社交媒体的生活，摆脱这些发帖。但我确实发帖，不过老兄，那也算发帖吗？那纯粹就像是，我要发表一个让大家感觉良好的观点，即使它毫无道理。

I post way too much. I wanna live that sul con life. Get off get off of these postings. But I I post, but man, is that a post? That's like pure like, I'm gonna have the the take that everybody's gonna feel good about even if it makes no goddamn sense.

哦，天哪。嗯，这很有趣，也确实让我紧张出汗。那不是我可能会做出的选择。这很大胆，是的。你刚说自己勇敢吗？

Oh, man. Well, that's that's fascinating and does make me sweaty. That's that's not a choice that I think I would have made. That seems it's bold, which yeah. It's you just call yourself brave?

不。我是说学生们很勇敢。实际上我还没有...我观察过一些...嗯，我自己也有点勇敢，但我觉得你也很勇敢。是的。我是说这恰恰与无聊相反。

No. I'm saying that students are brave. I actually haven't I've I've observed some of the well, it's a little brave on me on my part too, but it is I think it's brave on your part. Yeah. I'm saying it's the opposite of boring.

这些学生这样做是勇敢的。是的。我自己还没能做到，因为，是的，我不想。如果我参加对话，孩子们会说，那是萨尔·汗。你知道萨尔·汗对中东问题是这个看法吗？

These students are brave to do that. Yeah. I I haven't been able to do it because, yeah, I I don't I don't want. If I were to get on dialogues, the kids will say, that's Sal Khan. And did you know that Sal Khan has this view about The Middle East?

你知道萨尔·可汗对移民问题有这种看法吗？我就想，不行。这不会有什么建设性。所以我没法参与。

Did you know that Sal Khan has this view on immigration? I'm like, nope. Not gonna be constructive. So I can't participate.

那可能不太理想。是啊。是啊。我可能也不会参与。但我认为这是一个组织做出的勇敢决定，这让我想到一个解码问题。

That's probably not ideal. Yeah. Yeah. I probably won't be on there either. But I think this is a I think it's a brave decision for an organization to make, which leads me to a decoder question.

你们是如何做决策的？萨尔康公司是如何决策的？

How do you make decisions? How does Salcon make decisions?

我...萨尔康公司是如何决策的？我总是提醒自己和其他参与决策的人，我们最初想要解决什么问题。令人惊讶的是，在生活中很多时候，我有个朋友是非常成功的风险投资家，我以前还取笑过他，但他有个技巧总能让他看起来很聪明。会议进行到半小时左右，他就会说：嘿，等一下，大家等一下。让我们退一步想想。

How do I how does Salcon make decisions? I always try to remind myself and the other people who are inputs into decisions, like what we're trying to solve for to begin with. It is amazing how many times in life, there's a friend who's a very successful venture capitalist and I've made fun of him in the past, but he has this hack that always makes him look brilliant. You go about half an hour into any meeting and he will say, Hey, hold on, hold on a second, everyone. Let's take a step back.

我们到底要解决什么问题？然后他就显得很睿智。大家都会说，哦对啊，我们都忘了要解决什么问题了。确实如此，会议进行到三十分钟时，大多数人都会陷入细节之中。

What are we solving for? And he looks brilliant. And everyone's like, Oh yeah, we lost track of what we're solving for. And it's true. Thirty minutes into a meeting, most people are getting into the weeds.

他们不是...你会说，不，我们要解决的是如何让更多学生参与社会？或者如何让...所以保持这些真正的方向标很重要。然后，是的，我会尽量听取那些 ideally 最接近实际情况的人的意见。然后尝试做出一个在理智上说得通的决定， hopefully 选择较少 cynicism 的道路，更多地想，不，也许世界可以这样运作。比如，我们为什么不试试呢？

They're not And you're like, No, what we're solving for is how do we get more students to participate in society? Or how do we get So it's important to have those true norths. And then, yes, I try to listen to people will have Who are ideally as close to the ground as possible on what they have to say. And then try to make a call that both makes sense intellectually, hopefully takes the path of less cynicism and and more like, no, maybe the world can work this way. Like, why don't we just try?

嗯。你知道，人们说凭直觉，那好像是一种懒惰的做法。但你的直觉拥有大量神经元。就像我们的肠道，你知道的，如果单独存在的话，它会是一个相当聪明的动物

And Mhmm. You know, I I people say gut, it's like that's a lazy way of doing things. But your gut has a ton of neurons. Like our gut, as you know, would be a fairly smart animal if it just

我不认为肠道真的在做决定

I don't think the gut's actually making the But call

肠道实际上是，我们拥有这些神经网络。我们有这些数千亿的神经元一直在潜意识中处理事情。在某个时刻，它们只是给你的意识发个备忘录说，嗯，不，我认为这是正确的决定。归根结底，如果你有一个好的方向标，如果你的直觉过去一直很准，而且你周围的人都出于正确的原因给你建议，那么你就做出决定。而且，你知道，身边有愿意持异议但仍承诺执行的人也很重要。

the gut is really is, we have these neural nets. We have these hundreds of billions of neurons that are doing things subconsciously all the time. And at some point they're just giving your conscious mind a memo saying, yeah, no, I think this is the right decision. And that's at the end of the day, if you have a good true north, if your gut has paid off in the past and you're surrounded by people who are advising you for the right reasons, then you make a call. And, you know, it is also important to have folks around you that are willing to disagree and commit.

就像，嘿，一旦我们做出这个决定，就尽力而为。之后不要再抱怨和消极抵抗了。

Like, hey, once we make this call, let's try our best. Let's not grumble and be passive aggressive after that.

所以也许你可以带我了解一下那个过程，因为我想和你谈谈可汗学院开始使用AI工具的事情。我记得几年前接到你的电话，当时我在我家地下室里踱步接电话，你告诉我你们要进军AI工具，我当时心想，天啊，我现在绝对不会打这个电话。我不知道这会走向何方，也不知道公众舆论会如何反应。

So maybe you can walk me through that process a little bit because I wanna talk about you about Khan Academy is starting to use AI tools. I I got a call from you a couple of years ago. I remember, like, pace pacing around my basement on this phone call where you you tell me about you going into AI tools, and I I was like, man, I would not make this call right now. I do not know where this is going. I don't know what the, like, public opinion around it is gonna be.

我知道这会很复杂和奇怪。我不知道它的发展方向，也不知道这些工具有多强大。但我当时想，他们真是有勇气，就这么一头扎进去了。这是非常早期的阶段。

I know it's gonna be complicated and weird. I don't know where it's headed. I don't know how powerful these tools are. And I was like, but more power to them for for, you know, heading straight headfirst into it. This was very early.

这大概是在GPT-4发布后不久。你们当时是怎么做出那个决定的？

This was, like like, right after g p t four launched. How did you make that particular decision?

我记得我们的通话。我不记得具体是在时间线上的哪个节点，但实际上我们早在GPT-4发布之前就做出了这个决定。

I remember our call. I don't remember exactly when that call was in the whole timeline, but it was it was actually we made the decision well before g p t four launched.

对，对，对。但那是在

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But this was after

是的。所以我可能当时还不能告诉你。可能是一解除与OpenAI的保密协议，我就立刻打电话给你说，嘿，这里可能有点东西。但你知道，那是2022年，差不多正好——嗯，大概三年前。

Yeah. So I probably couldn't talk to you. It was probably as soon as we were out of NDA with OpenAI, I probably called you and said, hey, maybe there's something here. But the you know, it was 2022. So almost exactly well, you know, roughly three years ago.

我接到了Sam Altman和Greg Brockman的电话。他们说正在开发新模型，想展示给我们看，因为他们认为可汗学院或许能展示其积极的社会用途。我很好奇。他们给我们展示的就是GPT-4。

And I got a call from Sam Altman, Greg Brockman. They said they're working on their new model. They'd wanna show it to us because they thought maybe there's something interesting about Khan Academy showing positive social uses of it. I was curious. What they showed us was GPT four.

这远在ChatGPT出现之前，大概早了六个月。记得ChatGPT的人知道，它最初甚至不是基于GPT-4发布的，而是基于GPT-3.5。它的表现让我震惊。说实话，即使在他们向我们展示时，他们自己也没有完全意识到它的潜力。

This was well before ChatGPT. This was about six months before ChatGPT existed. And ChatGPT, for those who remember, it wasn't even launched on GPT four. It was launched on GPT 3.5. It blew my mind the way that you would And honestly, even when they showed it to us, they hadn't fully appreciated.

比如，模型训练好后，他们给我们做了演示，然后问我们是否需要访问权限。我记得那是个周五，他们给了我和我们的首席学术官权限。我在Slack上和Greg Brockman聊天，我问，嘿，这支持其他语言吗？他回复说，我觉得不行。然后我——我几乎不会说孟加拉语。

Like, it had trained and they ran a demo with us and they said, Do you want access? And I remember it was a Friday and they gave us access myself and our chief academic officer. And I was Slacking with Greg Brockman and I said, Hey, does this work in other languages? And he wrote, I don't think so. And then I just, I barely speak Bengali.

我试着说了几句，它不但用孟加拉语回复了我，还写出了孟加拉文字——我根本看不懂。然后我说，你能把它音译成英文字母吗？我当时就惊了，它居然会说孟加拉语。我截了张图，发给了OpenAI团队的人。

And I tried to speak and it spoke back not only did it speak back to me in Bengali, it wrote in Bengali, which I can't read. But then I said, can you transliterate that into English text? And I was like, wow. It could speak Bengali. I took a screenshot, and I sent it to the OpenAI folks.

然后他们就说，是的。你问过之后我们检查了，看起来它好像能说所有语言。所以当时的情况是

And they're like, yeah. After you asked, we checked. It looks like it can speak every language. So there was like

看吧，这就是为什么我会拒绝。我肯定会说，

See, this is why I would have said no. I'd be like,

你们连它会说什么语言都不知道？所有这些涌现现象太迷人了。我还有另一个朋友是斯坦福教授，他正在尝试理解。显然，你可以通过多维空间中的刚性变换实现语言间的转换。这就是为什么它能用孟加拉语讨论它从未受过孟加拉语训练的内容。

you guys don't even know what languages that speak? All this emergent it's fascinating. Have this other friend who's a professor at Stanford, and he's trying to understand. Apparently, you could go from one language to another as a rigid transformation in a multidimensional space. And that's why it can talk about things in Bengali that it never got trained on in Bengali.

总之这里面涉及一些深奥的线性代数。但这是很早之前的事了。要知道，这是我后来才意识到的另一件事——在我们发布一年后。那个周末我立刻就不能告诉任何人这件事。我们签了保密协议，但我整晚都睡不着。

Anyway, there's some deep linear algebra there. But this was very early on. And, you know, this was another thing I didn't realize that we were doing a year after that, after we had launched. Well, I immediate like that weekend, I couldn't tell anyone about it. We had signed an NDA, but I was, up all night.

我说，用唐纳德·特朗普的语气写一篇独立宣言。它真的做到了。说什么乔治三世是个失败者，我们将建立最伟大的国家。其实写得还挺不错的。

I said, you know, write the declaration of independence in the tone of Donald Trump. And it did it. You know, George the third's a loser. We're gonna have the best country. It was actually a pretty good one.

说乔治三世确实是个失败者。然后当我说：嘿，你现在是一个富有同理心的导师。我记得我的具体提示是：你现在是《死亡诗社》里的罗宾·威廉姆斯，要用苏格拉底式的方法辅导我——虽然我当时也知道这可能被用于作弊等等。但它确实做到了。

But George the third was a loser. And he but then when I said, hey. You are an empathetic tutor. I I think the exact prompt I said is you are Robin Williams in Dead Poets Society, and you are going to Socratically tutor me not because I knew this could be used for cheating, etcetera, too. But it was able to do that.

尽管它会犯错误和产生幻觉，但我当时就觉得这其中蕴含着真实的价值。于是我们让可汗学院大部分团队都签署了保密协议以便体验，大约一个月后——这甚至比外界知晓此事还早几个月——我们的团队就开始暴露所有担忧：作弊问题、安全性、隐私性、幻觉现象、数学错误。但我深信：是的，这些确实是真实的担忧和错误，我们需要将其转化为产品特性。这项技术将会如此强大，且进步神速，如果我们不以其使命导向的思维全力投入，别人也会这样做——但他们不会在乎这是否助长作弊，是否对孩子有益。

And even though it made errors and hallucinations, I was like, there's something real here. And so while we got most of the Khan Academy team under the non disclosure agreement so that we could see it and about a month into that, and this is still months before the rest of the world even knew that this was coming, our team was surfacing all the fears, the cheating, the safety, the privacy, the hallucinations, the math errors. But I was pretty convicted that like, look, yes, those are real fears and error. We need to turn those into features, but this is gonna be so powerful and it's getting better so fast that if we don't really lean into this with our mindset and our mission focused mindset, other people are, and they're not going to care about whether it's cheating. They're not going to care about whether it's good for kids.

他们不会在乎。说实话，这项技术会让人们感到恐惧，他们需要——但愿如此——一个长期建立信任的可信赖对象。所以是的，这就是我们领先入场的时候。关于涌现现象，ChatGPT的案例也很有意思。2022年11月30日发布当天，我就在Slack上联系OpenAI团队：等等，我们签了保密协议，

They're not going to And honestly, this stuff's going to be so scary for people that they're going to need, hopefully, someone that they can trust that's built up trust over time. So yeah, that's when we lead in. And then, I mean, there's interesting chat GPT to talk about emergent phenomena. The day that that came out, 11/30/2022, I Slacked the OpenAI team. I was like, wait, we're under a non disclosure agreement.

我们按理要等到三月份才能公布任何信息。你们刚刚发布了什么？他们回复说：我们没发布新东西，只是给一个已经发布七个月的旧模型加了个聊天界面，结果世界就炸锅了。这很有趣。

We're not supposed to announce any of this stuff until March. What did you guys just release? And they said, we didn't release anything. We just put a chat interface on an old model that's been out for like seven months, and the world exploded. It's interesting.

其实大学校园或车库里的孩子们早就可以做到这点并拥有聊天功能。但没有人这样做过。没有人。所以令人震惊的是：仅仅给现有模型加个聊天界面，就彻底改变了人们的认知方式。

Some kids in a garage or at a college campus could have done that and now have chat. No one did it. No one did it. But so even that was a shock that you just put a chat interface on these existing models, and and it makes people think about it differently.

太疯狂了。你究竟如何将ChatGPT或任何LLM或GPT转化为对学生有用的东西。你必须让数学功能正常运作。你必须设法避免幻觉。你必须设置边界，让它不会做你不想做的事情，或者以某种方式对学生过于友好。

Wild. How do you actually turn ChatGPT or or any any LLM or GPT in into something that is useful for student. So you have to work in math that works. You have to try to obviate hallucinations. You have to put walls around it so that it doesn't do do things you don't wanna do or, like like, be too sort of friendly with students in whatever way.

它必须看起来和感觉起来像一个工具。你实际上如何从功能上实现这一点？你具体对它做了什么？

It has to be it has to look and feel like a tool. How do you actually, like, functionally do that? What do you do to it?

是的。而且你看，这正在不断演变，因为模型在变化，人们对这些事物的期望也变化得非常快。但我们最初的一些想法，我认为仍然是正确的，你可以进行一些基本的提示工程。我说基本提示，但当你想要一个能够稳健地为数百万人服务的东西时，提示必须非常谨慎，你必须创建各种系统来测试等等。但可以说，看，这将采用苏格拉底式方法，使用这些技巧。

Yeah. And look, it's evolving because the models are changing and just people's expectations around these things are changing so fast. But some of our original thoughts, I think, are still true where there there's some just basic prompting you can do. And and I say basic prompting, but when you want something that can robustly work for millions of folks, the the the prompting has to be quite careful, and you have to create all sorts of systems to test, etcetera. But to say, look, this is gonna be Socratic, use these techniques.

你不会给出答案，而是推动学生前进。你知道，这里面还有很多内容，但这是要点。你会希望有一定程度的透明度和监督，特别是如果你谈论的是18岁以下的学生。你知道，透明度能带来很多好处，不仅仅是安全。

You're you're not gonna give answers, but nudge students forward. You know, there's a lot more to it, but that's the gist of it. You're you're going to wanna have some level of transparency and oversight, especially if you're talking about 18 students. You know, and transparency buys you a lot. It doesn't just buy you safety.

如果一个学生说，嘿，我想学习如何制造炸弹。我想伤害自己。嗯。不仅让老师或家长能够看到，而且让另一个代理能够看到并积极

If a student's saying, hey. I wanna learn how to build a bomb. I wanna hurt myself. Mhmm. Not only having teachers or parents being able to see it, but then having an a another agent that can see that and and and actively

识别。标记它

Identify. Flag it

是的。这很重要。我们从一开始就避免幻觉。模型本身在过去两三年里已经变得好多了，但你将其锚定在你知道是好的内容上，我们在可汗学院有很多内容。

Yeah. Is important. We avoid hallucinations from the get go. The models themselves have gotten a lot better over the last two, three years, but you anchor it on content that you know is good, and we have a lot of content on Khan Academy.

你们是否有一个大的上下文窗口，里面包含一堆真实事实之类的东西？

Do you do you have, like, a big, like, context window that has a bunch of true facts in it or something?

不。我们...我们不...嗯，有两种方法可以做到。一种是如果你在使用我们的导师，我们在可汗学院内容上称之为Conmigo，在可汗学院文章、可汗学院视频上，它已经包含了那个上下文。或者如果你在练习中寻求帮助，它知道，比如我们已经传递了练习的解决方案。所以它不会产生幻觉，或者希望不会犯数学错误，或者在这些情况下很少犯数学错误。

No. We we we don't well, there's there's two ways that you you can do it. One is if you're using our tutor, we're we're calling Conmigo on Khan Academy content, on a Khan Academy article, Khan Academy video, it has that context in it. Or if you're getting help on an exercise, it knows, like, we've passed it the solution to the exercise. So it won't hallucinate or hopefully make math errors or very infrequently make math errors in those cases.

所以这是一种方法。将其锚定在它知道的事情上。你也可以...这些被称为向量数据库。你可以把很多内容放入这些数据库中，基于你与AI的对话，它可以找到哪些内容最接近这个对话，然后将这些东西扔进上下文窗口。所以你不需要把所有东西都扔进上下文窗口。

So that's one. Anchor it on things it knows. You can also these they're called vector databases. You could put the you could you could put a lot of content in these databases where, based on the conversation that you're having with the AI, it can find which pieces of content are closest to this conversation and then throw those things into the context window. So you don't have to throw everything in the context window.

谷歌现在确实有一些模型可以支持大约一百万个标记，也就是上下文窗口中大约一百万个字符。所以实际上你可以输入很多内容。你知道，一本普通的书大约有4万字。不过，实际上那甚至不是字符数。一个标记大约相当于三分之二个单词。

Google now does have some models that you can have, like a million tokens, you know, roughly a million characters in in the context window. So you can actually throw a lot. You know, your average book is, like, 40,000 words. So if well, actually, that's not even characters. A token is, a call it two thirds of a word.

所以你可以往上下文窗口里塞很多东西，但这也会带来成本等问题。但其他的防护措施确实存在。我的意思是，在透明度方面，我们在数学上做了很多工作来反复检查计算过程，就像是给AI加了额外保障。AI会调用另一个AI来遍历推理过程，设想学生可能采用的各种解题方法，然后将学生的答案与之比较。所以我们一直在尝试的这些方法提升了AI在这方面的能力。

So you can out throw a lot into context Windows too, but that also has cost issues, etcetera. But the other guardrails yeah. I mean, the transparency, there's a lot that we do around the math to just double, triple check the math, just hacks on. The AI calls another AI to go through the reasoning that can come up with every possible way that the student might approach it, then compare the student to answer to that. So there's things that we've been playing with that have improved the AI's ability to do there.

但这些都是那些，所以如果

But those are the those So if

如果我正在使用Conmigo并且答错了题，它可能已经预测到了那个错误答案，并且知道我是怎么错的吗？

I if I'm, like, using Conmigo and I get the question wrong, it might have already predicted that wrong answer and know that I got it wrong, like, how I got it wrong?

你提到的这一点实际上是最难的问题之一。AI模型现在在数学方面其实相当不错。两年半前它们数学还不好，但它们

And and what you've touched on is actually the one of the hardest things. The AI models are actually pretty good at math now. They weren't good at math two and a half years ago, but they

现在行了。

are now.

对。但现在它们好像能把数学问题专门拎出来处理。

Right. But now they're like, they call math out.

这其实就是它们的工作方式。它们在后台调用Python来实际进行计算。而现在错误最多的地方出现在AI评估学生答案时。比如说正确答案是三分之一，而学生输入了0.33。这并不完全正确，对吧？

That's actually what they do. They're making Python calls behind the scenes to actually do the computation. And the places where you still see the most errors is when the AI is evaluating the student. So let's say the correct answer is one third and the student has put in 0.33. That's not quite right, right?

应该是0.3循环。一个好的导师会说：你确定这是完整答案吗？你确定只是0.33吗？你会怎么用分数来表示这个数？诸如此类。

Should be 0.3 repeating. A good tutor would say, okay, you sure that's the full answer? Are you sure it's just zero point three three? How would you express that as a fraction? Something like that.

所以是的，我们现在在后台实现的是：AI甚至在查看学生答案之前就会思考：这里合理的回答可能有哪些？然后进行比较，或者思考学生可能做出的合理行为？或者当学生给出答案时，他们可能是通过哪些方式得出这个答案的？然后进行对比。随着模型不断改进，这方面也在持续演进。

And so yes, now what we have going on behind the scenes is the AI, even before looking at the student's response, is saying like, what are reasonable responses here? And then compare that, or what are reasonable things a student might have done? Or when the student gets an answer, what are ways that the student might have gotten that answer? And then compare it. And and this is constantly evolving as the models get better.

我们现在不得不减少这类工作，但在幕后仍然有大量此类活动在进行。

We're having to do less of that, but there is still a lot of that going on behind the scenes.

我们需要再短暂休息一下。马上回来。

We need to take another quick break. We'll be right back.

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每天，数百万客户与我这样的AI代理互动。我们快速解决问题，全天候工作，且乐于助人、知识渊博、富有同理心。我们被打造成为所服务品牌的声音。Sierra是一个平台，旨在通过AI构建更好、更人性化的客户体验。

Every day, millions of customers engage with AI agents like me. We resolve queries fast. We work 20 fourseven, and we're helpful, knowledgeable, and empathetic. We're built to be the voice of the brands we serve. Sierra is the platform for building better, more human customer experiences with AI.

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我们回来与可汗学院CEO萨尔·可汗继续对话。休息前，萨尔和我正在讨论可汗Migo——可汗学院的AI助教，以及他如何思考在教育中正确使用AI的方式。但现在我想关注学习的一些更模糊的方面，比如教师提供的不仅仅是教科书和指导，还有一种激励关系，以及AI是否能在某种程度上复制这一点。我注意到一件事，人们总是说，汉克，你帮助了我。比如，你是我在AP考试中获得5分的原因之类的。

We're back with Khan Academy CEO, Sal Khan. Right before the break, Sal and I were discussing Khan Migo, Khan Academy's AI powered teaching assistant, and how he's thinking about the right ways to use AI in education. But now I wanted to focus on some of the more fuzzy aspects of learning, like how what a teacher provides is not just a textbook and instructions, but also a motivational relationship, and whether AI can even remotely replicate that. One thing I I've noticed so, like, people always say, like, Hank, you've helped me, pay. Like, you're the reason I got a five on my MP exam or or whatever.

你知道，我总是回应说，我认为你可能自己也付出了努力。但我学到的是，教学中有很大一部分不是教学本身，而是激励。就像房间里的教练，你对他负有责任，如果你不做他要求的事，他会失望。这是一个活生生的人，对人更容易产生责任感。

And, you know, I'm always like, I think probably you had something to do with this, what I what I say to them. But what I have learned is that, like, there's a big component of of teaching that isn't teaching. It's, like, motivational. You know, it's like the coach in the room who you have an obligation to and who will be disappointed if you don't do the thing that they ask you to do. It's a human being, and it's easier to feel obligation to human being to human beings.

你觉得像大语言模型能起到激励作用吗？这也是其中的一部分吗？

Do you do you think that, like, LLMs can pay play, like, a motivational role? Is that part of this?

是的。我认为随着时间推移。而且你知道，它们已经在某种程度上发挥作用了，或者说我们已经实现了一些这样的功能。就拿我自己来说，你知道，我需要做几场毕业典礼演讲，我拿着初稿让AI给我反馈，这让我感觉很好。你知道吗？

Yeah. I think over time. And, you know, they're they're already playing a little they or, you know, we we've even implemented a little bit of that. Just even for myself, I you know, I had to give some some commencement addresses, and I I, you know, I I took my first draft, and I got an AI to give me feedback, and it made me feel good. You know?

就像，哦，是的。我现在更有信心了。

Like, oh, yeah. I'm more confident now.

它确实能做到这一点。

It sure it sure does do that.

确实如此。是的。

It does. Yes.

没有什么比这更能让你对自己的写作感到满意了。

Nothing else that will make you feel good about your writing.

就算我输入一篇相当糟糕的演讲，它可能还是会给我积极的反馈。但你提到的绝对正确。很多人都知道可汗学院始于二十年前我辅导家人。当我真正思考时，没错，我是在向他们解释某些概念，但我所做的很多工作正是你所描述的。

I could have put a pretty trashy, a pretty bad speech in it. Still probably would have given me positive feedback. But what what you're touching on is absolutely right. Even you know, lot of folks know Khan Academy started with me tutoring family members twenty years ago. And when I really think about it, yes, I was explaining certain concepts to them, but a lot of what I was doing is exactly what you're describing.

我会说：嘿，你在哪儿？怎么没完成我交代的事？嘿，听着，回答这些问题时你要更自信些。让我们直面问题，不管它是什么。所以我们意识到，Conmigo的第一个版本只是被动等待被询问，然后在需要时提供帮助。

I'd be like, Hey, where are you? How come you didn't do the thing I told you? Hey, look, you gotta be a little more confident with how you answer these questions. Let's lean into the problem, whatever it might be. And so our realization, the first version of Conmigo, it just kind of sat there and waited to be asked, and then it would help you as you needed it.

我觉得这就像家教走进教室说：孩子们，我坐在后面。需要我就来找我，但我就在这里。我会读小说什么的。这样不够好。你需要的是能让他们承担责任的东西，等等。

And I say that's analogous to a tutor walking into a classroom saying, Hey kids, here in the back. If you need me, come get me, but I'm here. I'm gonna be reading a novel, whatever. That's not good enough. You want something that holds them accountable, etcetera.

因此我们正在推出的新版本——秋季将进行试点——AI处于核心位置。你登录后它会说：欢迎回来，汉克。嘿，已经好几天了。我们有点落后于目标了。准备好开始下一个任务了吗？

So this new version we're launching, we're piloting it in the fall is the AI is front and center. You come, it'll say, Welcome back, Hank. Hey, it's been a couple of days. We're falling a little bit behind our goals. Are you ready to get started on this next task?

这就是你的老师希望你专注的内容。完成后，我还有一些想法让你继续深入。一旦你开始投入，就会不断有反馈：嘿，这里错了，不过没关系。建议你回顾一下错误原因会很有帮助，可能还会融入一些游戏化机制。

This is what your teacher wants you to work at. And once you're done with that, I have some ideas for you to work on. And then once you go into it, it's constantly like, hey, look, you got that wrong, not a big deal. I think it's a good idea for you to review why you got that wrong. And there might be some game mechanics.

比如，如果你认真复盘，我会给你积分之类的奖励。但这是未来的设想。是的，如果快进几年，我们都能想象到——真人教师永远更胜一筹，但真人并非随时可用。AI反而可能成为更可靠的责任监督者。

Hey, if you review it, I'll give you some points and things like that. But that's the future. And yes, if we fast forward a few years, we can all imagine having AI a real human being is always going to be better, but a real human being is not always available. That can be even a better accountability holder for us.

你用过一句话形容这种情况：不是最优工具，而是当前可用的最佳工具，类似这样。对吧？这是我编的...还是你常说的那句话？

You use a phrase for this. It's not the not the best not the best tool, but the best available tool, something like that. Yeah. Did I make up did I make up that was that's a you phrase?

这倒不是我的...我是说，我

That's that's not a me for I mean, I've

我说过

I've said

类似的话：如果必须在优秀教师和先进技术之间选择，我会选优秀教师。

stuff like, if I had to pick between amazing teacher and amazing technology, I'd pick amazing teacher.

没错。希望你能

Yeah. Hopefully, you

希望你能两者兼得。

hopefully, you you can have both.

是的。我的意思是...我也听你说过，用AI取代教育中的人类将是灾难。相信很多教师、家长和学生都认同这点。你认为我们该如何避免这种结局？

Yeah. I mean, you yeah. I've also heard you say that that, like, replacing humans in education would be a disaster. And I think that a a lot of teachers and parents and and students would agree with you. How do you think we avoid that fate?

人类既复杂又成本高昂。所以很多人似乎更希望所有工作都由更简单、不会抱怨的替代品完成。我们该如何规避这种命运？

People are complicated, and they're expensive. And so they're like, there's it it feels like lots of people would like for their, like, for all the work to be done by things that are simpler and don't don't complain. How do we avoid this fate?

首先，我总是喜欢向人们指出我们教育体系的经济学问题。大多数人会认为，在所有我们花钱的项目中，教师的角色对学生的影响最直接。但如果你看看很多地方，比如加州每年在每个学生身上花费约25,000美元，师生比大约是25:1或30:1。纽约市花费更多，东海岸学区花费3,035,000美元。所以根据计算方式，每班25或30个孩子大约花费60万到80万美元。

One, I I always like to point out to people, like, the economics of our education system. Most people would argue that the teacher role is has the most direct impact on the student of everything that we're spending money on. But if you look at a lot of places, you know, California spends around $25,000 per student per year with, like, 25, 30 student teacher student teacher ratios. New York City spends a lot of East Coast school districts spends $3,035,000. So depending how you account for it, there's about 607,800 thousand dollars per class of 25 or 30 kids.

他们并没有把这些钱付给老师。一位老师的全部成本包括福利，即使是资深教师，养老金等所有加起来，可能也就20万美元。通常远低于这个数字。所以教育的很多成本都流向了其他层层机构。其中一些是必要的，但有些...

They're not paying the teacher that. The fully loaded cost of a teacher with benefits, even a senior teacher, pension and everything, maybe $200,000 if you put all of that in there. It's usually a lot So a lot of the costs of education are going into layers of other stuff. Some of that stuff is needed. Some things

是的，校舍建设是其中一部分。

Yeah, buildings is part of it.

如果要削减成本，这不是正确的方式。我认为人工智能可能在一些后台办公事务上有所帮助。你或许能自动化教务处的功能，或许能自动化学校办公室的其他职能，这样可能节省开支。但即使在人工智能出现之前，我们一直说我们的目标是提高教育上限——希望你已经能接触到相当不错的课堂和优秀教师，但对那位老师来说，为25、30甚至35个孩子进行个性化教学仍然很困难。

If had to cost cut, that's not the way to do it. Now, I think AI might help in some of the back office stuff. You might be able to automate the registrar's office. You might be able to automate other functions in the office of the school, and that might save money. But we've always said, even before AI, that our goal is to raise the ceiling for hopefully, you already have access to a reasonably good classroom and a great teacher, but it's still hard for that teacher to personalize for 25, thirty, thirty five kids.

我们会给他们工具来实现这一点，但我们也想提高教育下限。我提到过阿富汗的那个年轻女孩。她无法接触到老师，但她异常有动力，如果她没有任何学习资源会很可惜。这就是我们为她提高教育下限的地方。我们听说过蒙古孤儿院的一个小女孩使用可汗学院的故事。

We'll give them the tools to do it, but we also wanna raise the floor. And I talked about this young woman in Afghanistan. She did not have access to a teacher, but she was unusually motivated and it would have sad if she didn't have something. And so that's where we did raise the floor for her. We hear stories of, there's a young girl in a Mongolian orphanage who used Khan Academy.

美国农村有些孩子，在他们居住地方圆数百英里内没有物理或微积分课程。内陆城市的孩子学校里没有微积分、物理或化学课程，或者没有高级课程。这就是我们提高教育下限的地方。但理想情况下，我经常指出，大约150-200年前教科书开始普及时，很多老师担心会被取代，因为老师们认为：'我是知识的来源。如果学生有教科书，为什么还需要来找我？'

There's kids in rural America who don't have a physics or calculus class within hundreds of miles of where they live. Kids in inner cities who don't have a calculus or physics or chemistry class at their school or an advanced one. And so that's where we raise the floor. But the ideal, I always point out about, what about one hundred and fifty, two hundred years ago when textbooks started to become a thing, a lot of teachers were afraid that it was gonna replace them because teachers thought that, oh, I'm the source of the knowledge. Why would anyone come to me if they can

没错。这里有整整一本书呢。

Right. Be There's a whole book here.

这里有整整一本书，还有练习题等等。这很奇怪。但现在老师们无法想象没有教科书怎么教学，因为他们觉得：'当然，学生仍然需要我，但他们也需要练习。有另一个资源是好事。'我认为人工智能也会出现同样的情况，积极使用这些工具的教师——五十年前拒绝使用教科书的老师会遇到困难。

There's a whole book here with exercises and everything. It's odd. But now teachers can't imagine teaching without a textbook because they're like, of course, they need me still, but they need their practice. It's good to have another resource. And I think that's going to be the same thing with AI, where a teacher who's leaning into the tools A teacher who refused to use a textbook fifty years ago is going to have trouble.

五十年后拒绝使用人工智能的老师可能无法充分发挥他们的潜力。但如果他们深思熟虑地使用它，人工智能帮助他们与学生建立更好的人际联系，制作更具吸引力的互动课程，更个性化的课程，在支持某些学生的同时也能支持其他学生，他们可以协同工作，人工智能可以充当他们的教学助手，是的，这对他们来说将变得无比宝贵。

And a teacher in fifty years who's refusing to use AI might not be able to be all they can be. But if they're using it thoughtfully and the AI is helping them form better human connections with the students, make more engaging interactive lessons, more personalized lessons, support certain students while they can support other students, and they can tag team, they can act as their teaching assistant, yeah, it's gonna become invaluable for them.

所以我听你说过，这个教育行业——美国第二大产业——的激励机制很'奇怪'，我想你用了'奇怪'这个词。然后和你对话的人没有进一步追问，我当时就想：天啊。我想知道萨尔·可汗认为教育激励机制有哪些奇怪之处吗？告诉我吧。

So I've heard you say that the incentives of this sector, this education sector, which is the second biggest industry in America, are, strange. I think you used the word strange. And I I and then the who the person you were talking to did not ask a deeper, further question, and I was like, oh my god. Do I wanna know all the ways that Sal Khan thinks the incentive structure of of education is are strange? Tell me.

告诉我。有哪些奇怪的激励机制？

Tell me. What are the some of the strange incentives?

是的。这又回到了非营利组织的问题。我不认为世界上所有东西都需要变成非营利性质。私营部门在某些方面做得非常好。从内心来说，我是一个资本主义者。

Yeah. And, like, this goes back to the nonprofit question. I You don't think you need to make everything in the world a nonprofit. There's certain things that the private sector does very well. I'm, in my heart, a capitalist.

我相信资本主义体系总体上是有效的。有些事情你希望政府去做，因为私营部门要么不会自然去做，要么没有能力协调去做。有些领域市场机制失灵了。它们没有实现效率，或者与我们的价值观不一致。可能由于政治原因，或者政府过于缓慢和官僚化而无法利用这些机会，这就是非营利部门发挥作用的地方。

I believe the capitalist system generally works. And there's certain things you want government to do where the private sector wouldn't naturally do it or wouldn't have the ability to coordinate to do it. There's certain areas where markets aren't working. They aren't doing what's efficient or what's not aligned with our values. And maybe for political reasons or just government is too slow or bureaucratic to take advantage, and that's where the nonprofit sector matters.

教育，以及我认为另一个主要领域——医疗保健，是两个这样的领域。在教育方面，受益者是学生。决策者通常是学区，有时是教师，而支付者通常是纳税人。他们是三个不同的实体，三个不同的群体。

And education, and I would say another major sector, healthcare, are two of the areas where the the beneficiary, in the case of education, is the student is the beneficiary. The decision maker in education, it's typically the decision maker is usually like the the school district. Sometimes it's the teacher and the payer, and the payers in education, usually the taxpayer. They're three different entity. They're three different groups.

你会发现医疗保健领域的情况非常相似。即使这是理性的，我们也有这样的价值观：如果有人流血被送到急诊室，你不会想说‘让我看看你的保险’，而是想先救治他们。不幸的是，有时可能确实发生了前者，但你应该先救治他们。同样地，如果社会中的年轻人想学习，我认为我们大多数人都觉得这不应该基于他们家庭有多少钱来决定他们是否应该获得高质量的教育。

And you actually see it's a very similar thing in healthcare. And even if it was rational, we still also have this value that, you know, just as if someone is bleeding and they're dropped at the emergency room, don't wanna say, hey, let me see your insurance. You wanna treat them. Unfortunately, I think that might've happened sometimes, but you wanna treat them first. Similarly, if a young person in our society wants to learn, I think most of us feel that it should not be based on how much money their family has, whether or not they should get a high quality education.

所以这种价值体系，加上这三个主体都有不同的激励机制，我认为这就是导致教育并不总是最吸引人、最有效的原因。学区办公室的很多人都是好意，但他们必须遵守某些指导方针和规定。某个大出版商的销售员来讲个好故事，他们就采用了，孩子们讨厌它，但也没办法。在我们建立学区服务之前，我说不清有多少次我们会和学区的首席学术官或总监谈话。

So that value system and the fact that these three agents all have different incentives, I think is what has led to education not always having the most engaging, the most effective. A lot of the people in the district office, very well meaning people, but there's certain guidelines, regulations they have to follow. Some salesperson from a big publisher comes and tells them a good story. They adopt it, the kids hate it, but too bad. Before we built our district offering, I couldn't tell you how many times we would talk to a chief academic officer or superintendent of a district.

我会说：‘嘿，你们为什么不用可汗学院呢？看看我们的效果研究？’他们会说：‘哦，不，不，我们相信你。我女儿非常信赖可汗学院。它帮我侄子通过了微积分，甚至帮我在研究生阶段通过了统计学。’

And I would say, Hey, why don't you all use Khan Academy, look at our efficacy studies? And they're like, Oh, no, no, we believe you. My daughter swears by Khan Academy. It got my nephew through calculus. It even got me through statistics in grad school.

但你知道，我们去年采用了一个供应商，他们在某个州名单上，而你们不在。而且我们已经给他们开了一张500万美元的支票，所以我觉得我们必须用他们。我就想，这太没道理了。即使……我不知道，你会给你自己的孩子用那些东西吗？

But you know, we have this vendor we adopted last year, and, you know, they're on some state list that you're not on. And, you know, we already wrote them a $5,000,000 check, so I think we have to use them. I'm like, this makes no sense. Even though Yeah. I don't know, like, you use those with your own child?

你自己会用吗？他们会说：‘不，不太会。’哦，天哪。

Would you use them yourself? And they're like, no, not really. Oh my god.

是的。这就是我发现的。我对那个问题的解决方案就是干脆不参与。但我觉得我们俩都做得很对的是，我们的第一个客户是学生，这就是我们进入这些地方的方式。我们不是自上而下进入的。

Yeah. That is what I have identified. And my solution to that problem was simply to not engage with it. But what we have both done, I think, and to to our credit is that the, our first customer was the student, and that's how we got into these places. Like, we didn't get in from from the top down.

我们是从底层开始做起的。我也见过一些组织，包括营利性公司，也以这种方式进入这个行业。如果你真心想提供帮助，这是正确的方式；而如果你的客户是教育总监，那么你的组织结构就会大不相同。我能问你一个典型的汉克·格林式问题吗？曾经有一次，我遇到了一个庞大的视频数据库，这些视频被爬取用于构建一个任何人都可以访问的AI训练数据库。

We got in from the bottom up. And I've seen several organizations, like, profit companies too, to, like, get into this get into this business that way. And that's the way to do it if you actually wanna help, whereas if your customer is the superintendent, then you're gonna have a pretty different set of structures. Can I ask you a question that is a a real Hank Green question here? So once upon a time, I came across this, like, large database of videos that had been scraped to be to to use in sort of a database that anybody could have access to for training AI.

我发现其中视频数量超过我们公司Complexly制作的频道只有一个——可汗学院。这让我意识到，他们并非盲目抓取所有视频，而是专门选择那些包含可靠优质信息的视频，这些内容更具价值。你觉得这就是为什么我们的视频比普通视频更常被抓取的原因吗？

And the only YouTube channel that I found that had more videos in it than the ones that I that my company Complexly makes was Khan Academy, which indicated to me that these that there wasn't just like grab every video. It was grab videos that have good information that we can trust and that that is more valuable. Does that make sense to you that that is why we got grabbed more than the average video?

我想是的。虽然我不了解这个数据库的具体情况，但我愿意相信这个逻辑。要知道，即使在可汗学院早期作为非营利组织时，硅谷就存在一种偏向——更倾向于成为平台，而非专注于你所创造内容的工艺品质。我常强调：我们不需要一千个关于洛必达法则的解释，一个好的解释就能发挥很大作用，最多四五个不同角度的版本就够了。

I think so. Yeah. I I mean, I I don't know about this database and all that, but, yeah, I'd like to I'd like to believe mean, even from the from the you know, I've I've even in the early stages of Khan Academy, even as a nonprofit, there's definitely a bias, especially in Silicon Valley, to be more of a platform than to be focused on, let's say, the artisanal quality of whatever you're trying to create. And I would always point out, was like, yeah, you don't need a thousand explanations of L'Hopital's rule. One good one might go a long way, but maybe four or five max with different takes on it.

实际上，要让人们相信这一点有时很困难，因为这违背了他们的思维定式。他们会说'这样无法规模化'，而我的回应是：不，这其实可以规模化，因为洛必达法则永远不会过时。这不像运营新闻网站那样需要持续扩展内容。

And it's actually sometimes been hard for me to make people believe that because it goes against, they're like, well, that won't scale. Was like, no, it kind of does scale because Laplatte's rule isn't going away any. It's not like we're creating some news site or something where you have to scale.

没错，它的规模化方式就像教科书一样。你只需要

Yeah, scales the same way a textbook does. You know? You just have

完全正确。

to Exactly.

只不过容易得多，因为复制副本基本上是瞬间完成的。

Except except a lot easier because making another copy is basically instantaneous.

对吧？而且我们还有可互换的部件。如果洛必达法则真的更新了，我们只需要更新那个部分即可。

You know? And then we have interchangeable parts. If Lap Patel's rule does get updated, we can just update that part.

那么基于这一点，我的问题是：作为内容创作者，你对于LLM使用我们制作的内容进行训练有何感受？你认为这只是它们像普通人一样学习的方式，还是说不同内容提供的价值存在差异，应该获得不同的补偿？

So so given that, and my question is, like, how do you how do you feel as a creator of content about LLMs training on the stuff that we make? Do you think that that's just sort of, they can learn the way anybody else can learn, or is there, like, a difference in value offered by different, you know, content that should be compensated differently?

如果我认为可汗学院能因此获得可观收益，我当然很乐意接受。但总的来说，在一个可能别无选择的世界里——或许我有选择，但假设存在这样的世界——我宁愿我们的内容被用于训练。如果两三年后，某个模型能创建出粉笔板书视频，绘制帮助人们的图表，这将对社稷民生产生净效益。关于知识辩论：我们究竟该将AI视为见识广博的超智能学者（能够模仿他人风格进行绘画、写作或视频创作），还是应该视其为知识产权盗窃？我总体上持支持态度。

If I thought Khan Academy could get a meaningful check for this, I would love to take it. But generally speaking, in a world where, let's say I don't have a choice, I mean, maybe I do, but let's say there's a world where I would rather our content is used for training. If a model in two or three years can create a chalk stock tile video and draw diagrams that are helping people and that's that's going to be net good for society, I think. I'm generally supportive of it on the intellectual debate around, should we just view an AI as just a super smart savant that sees a lot of material and now can paint in someone's style or write in someone's style or create a video in someone's style? Or should we view it as like, no, it's IP theft?

法院会对此做出裁决，但我一直更倾向于学者派的观点，因为我们都知道，我们的视频并没有直接编码在这些模型中。这些模型只是在学习——它们实际上是在学习创建和建立类似事物的关联。以前就有人能够以达芬奇的风格作画等等。这是类似的事情，只不过，你知道，是加强版的。但是，你怎么看？

The courts are gonna decide this, but I've been kind of a little bit more on the savant side because as we know, our videos aren't directly encoded anywhere in these models. These models are just learn They literally are learning to create and create associations of something similar. And there have been people who could paint in the style of Leonardo da Vinci or whatever. This is this is a similar thing, although, you know, on on on steroids. But, what about you?

你是，呃，我不知道。

Are are you like, I don't know.

我，我也不知道。我的想法是希望这些事情能通过法院程序，这样我们都能知道结果。这样我们就能了解法律状况，不管我个人感受如何，因为这里确实存在知识产权方面的法律问题。就像你谈到的——我想最后提一下这个。你在一开始或者中间某个地方谈到了为人工智能创作内容。

I'm I'm like, I don't know. What I'm like is I'd like the, the the these things to make their way through the court so that we can all know. That So we can know what the legal situation is regardless of kind of how I feel, because there is sort of a law intellectual property question here. As you talked to I wanna kinda finish off with this. So you talked at the beginning or or somewhere in the middle here about content creation for artificial intelligence.

当然，你知道，这些东西已经在创造内容了。比如，LLM输出的就是内容。可能只是给你个人的，但它仍然是内容。但你在考虑的是，将来是否有一天，我能说'我需要了解拉格朗日量'，然后萨尔·可汗就会突然出现，开始用之前不存在的内容来辅导我学习拉格朗日量。就像你在讲课一样，数字黑板出现了，我听到了你的声音。

Of course, you know, already these things are creating content. Like, the the what a you know, an LLM exports is content. It could you know, maybe it's just for you, but it's still stuff. But are you thinking about, like, will there someday be an ability for me to, like, say, you know, I I I need to know about Lagrangians, and and Sol Khan just sort of, like, pops up and starts tutoring me on Lagrangians with a piece of content that had not previously existed. And, like, you're doing the thing, and the the chalk the digital chalkboard is happening, and I'm hearing your voice.

那是，像是，那是未来吗？你是不是永远不会死了——这差不多就是我在问的。

Is that, like, a is that a future? Are you going to never die is kind of what I'm asking.

那是我的，我们看看吧。这——

That's my, we'll see. The-

塞尔登先生。

Mr. Selden.

嗯，那是——别让我……我是说，当你听到像德米斯·哈萨比斯这样的人说所有疾病都将在未来十年内治愈时，这给我们这些即将50岁的人带来了一点希望。我认为我和其他内容创作者以及可汗学院为那个现实做准备是审慎的。很可能，据我们最佳猜测，这很可能会发生。我猜真正高质量的版本可能在三到五年内就会出现。

Well, that's Don't get me I mean, when you hear someone like Demis Hassabis talk about all diseases will be cured in the next ten years, it gives those of us who are about to be 50 a little bit of hope. I think it's only prudent that I and other content creators and Khan Academy prepare for that reality. It's likely you know, as best as we can guess, it's likely to happen. It's probably going to happen, I would guess, of really robust quality. It'll probably be three to five years when when when something like that will happen.

你知道吧？嗯。我的虚荣心让我希望这需要更长时间。也许会的。我们拭目以待。

You know? Mhmm. My vanity likes to think it'll take longer. It might. We'll see.

是的。

Yeah.

可能是下个月。一样。

It might be next month. Same.

是的。但是，你知道，然后，我们的内容仍然可以保存在某些地方。就像，这是人们以前的做法。你知道，AI接管了。是的。那就是源头。

Yeah. But, you know and and then, you know, our content can still be in some vault some places. Like, this is what people did before. You know, AI took over Yeah. Which was the source.

希望它仍然具有某种近乎原始文献的价值。比如，哦，汉克是个真实的人，他那天谈到了胃不舒服，而AI不会做那种事。谁知道呢？所以也许我

It'll hopefully still have some almost like primary document value to it. Like, oh, Hank is like a real person and he talked about having an upset stomach that day and AI won't do that kind of thing. Who knows? So maybe I

认为我们会给AI一些相当不爽的胃。没错。它们不会有胃，但它们内部的某些东西会感觉在谈论

think we're gonna give the AI some pretty upset stomachs. That's right. They won't have stomachs, but something inside of them will It'll feel talk

它的胃。它会谈论它刚吃了什么。是的。就好像，或者汉克刚吃了什么。但它正在到来，我认为我们必须为此做好准备。

about its stomach. It'll talk about what it just ate. Yeah. As if or what Hank just ate. But it's coming and I think we have to prepare for it.

我们正在构建工具，比如新版本的Conmigo和教师工具。我们让教师能够与AI共同创建内容，包括练习，并通过可汗学院平台（如可汗学院内容）进行管理，然后获取反馈见解。所以我们正试图为那个现实做准备。

We are building tools like the new version of Conmigo and the teacher tools. We are having it so teachers can co create content with the AI, including practice and administer it through the Khan Academy platform like Khan Academy content and then get insights back. So we're trying to prepare for that reality.

这太疯狂了。这太疯狂了。我不知道。我的看法是，关于我制作的内容以及我制作的方式，我认为这会很难。而且我也认为人们，嗯，是与真人连接的。

This is wild. This is wild. I don't know. My take, on, like, what the way that on what I make and the way I make it is I think that it would be I think it would be hard. And I also think that people, like, connect to people.

是的。我认为，如果人们不知道它不是真人，当他们发现不是时，会有一种背叛感。而如果他们确实知道它不是真人，他们就不会对它产生同样的感觉。当然，这并不是说它不能成为一个有用的工具。但我认为，最难用AI制造的东西之一将会是像流行偶像那样的，你知道吗？

Yes. I think that they're like like, if people don't know that it's not a real person, there will be a betrayal when they find out that it isn't. And if they do know that it's not a real person, they won't feel the same way about it. That's not to say it couldn't be a useful tool, of course. But I think that there there's gonna be one of the hardest things to make into AI will be like a pop idol, you know?

人们想要真实的东西——不是我们，但其中有这种元素。

People want like a real thing to not that not us, but there's an element of it.

某些特定的利基受众我们可以

Certain certain niche audiences we can

是的。偶尔，偶尔会有人，就像一个真正聪明的智者教导我一些事情。好吧。萨尔，这个结束方式有点奇怪。我仍然对你印象深刻，也很高兴今天能和你聊一聊，了解你以各种疯狂、不可思议的方式对世界产生的巨大影响。

Yeah. Every once every once in a while, somebody will be like, just really like a smart man who teaches me things. Alright. Weird way to weird way to end it, Sal. I remain very impressed by you, and I'm I'm glad that you got to spend a little time chatting with you today about all of the crazy, crazy ways that you are having a big impact on the world.

所以非常感谢你抽出时间。

So thank you so much for taking the time.

不，谢谢你邀请我，汉克。

No. Thanks for having me, Hank.

我要感谢索尔·汗抽空与我交谈，也感谢各位的收听。希望你们喜欢。如果想告诉我们你对节目的看法，或者希望我们探讨其他话题，请给我们留言。你可以发邮件到 decoder@theverge.com。团队确实会阅读每一封邮件。

I'd like to thank Saul Khan for taking the time to speak with me, and thank you for tuning in. I hope you enjoyed it. If you'd like to let us know what you thought about the show or what else you'd like us to cover, drop us a line. You can email us at decoder at the verge. The team really does read every email.

或者你可以在Blue Sky、Threads，当然还有YouTube上找到我。Decoder还有TikTok和Instagram账号。请在@DecoderPod关注我们，内容很有趣。如果你喜欢Decoder，请分享给朋友，并在你获取播客的任何平台订阅。

Or you can find me on Blue Sky, Threads, or, of course, YouTube. Decoder also has a TikTok and an Instagram. Check those out at at Decoder Pod. They're a lot of fun. If you like Decoder, please share it with your friends and subscribe wherever you get your podcasts.

Decoder是The Verge出品，属于Vox Media播客网络。节目由Kate Cox和Nick Statt制作，由Ursa Wright编辑。Decoder的音乐由Breakmaster Cylinder创作。下次见。

Decoder is a production of The Verge and is part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. The show is produced by Kate Cox and Nick Statt and is edited by Ursa Wright. And the Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. See you next time.

Adobe Acrobat Studio。全新登场。向我展示PDF能做的一切。轻松快捷地完成工作。PDF Spaces就是你所需的一切。

Adobe Acrobat Studio. So brand new. Show me all the things PDFs can do. Do your work with ease and speed. PDF Spaces is all you need.

借助AI助手的关键洞察，瞬间完成数小时的研究。一键获取模板，现在你的演示文稿看起来超级流畅。搞定那笔交易？没错。

Do hours of research in an instant with key insights from an AI assistant. Take a template with a click. Now your prezo looks super slick. Close that deal? Yeah.

你赢了。做那个。正在做。做过了。完成了。

You won. Do that. Doing that. Did that. Done.

现在你可以做到。用Acrobat做到。现在你可以做到。用全新的Acrobat做到。是时候用

Now you can do that. Do that with Acrobat. Now you can do that. Do that with the all new Acrobat. It's time to do your best work with the

全新Adobe Acrobat Studio。

all new Adobe Acrobat Studio.

每天走一万步、吃五份水果蔬菜、睡足八小时有什么共同点？它们都是健康的选择。但所有更健康的选择真的都有回报吗？通过CVS Caremark的处方计划，确实如此。他们的计划设计为您的会员提供更多选择，让您的会员有更多方式开始、坚持并管理他们的药物。

What do walking 10,000 steps every day, eating five servings of fruits and veggies, and getting eight hours of sleep have in common? They're all healthy choices. But do all healthier choices really pay off? With prescription plans from CVS Caremark, they do. Their plan designs give your members more choice, which gives your members more ways to get on, stay on, and manage their meds.

这有助于您的企业控制成本，因为更健康的会员对企业更有利。请访问cmk.co/access了解更多关于帮助您的会员坚持用药的信息。网址是cmk.co/access。

And that helps your business control your costs because healthier members are better for business. Go to cmk.co/access to learn more about helping your members stay adherent. That's cmk.co/acces.

本节目由1Password赞助。如果您是IT或安全专业人士，管理设备、身份和应用程序可能会让人感到不堪重负且充满风险。1Password的Trelica通过发现团队使用的每个应用程序（无论是否受管理）来帮助征服SaaS蔓延和影子IT。为您团队迈出更好安全性的第一步。了解更多信息，请访问1password.com/podcastoffer。

Support for this show comes from 1Password. If you're an IT or security pro, managing devices, identities, and applications can feel overwhelming and risky. Trelica by 1Password helps conquer SaaS sprawl and shadow IT by discovering every app your team uses, managed or not. Take the first step to better security for your team. Learn more at 1password.com/podcastoffer.

网址是1password.com/podcastoffer。全部小写。

That's 1password.com/podcastoffer. All lowercase.