对话Anker CEO：为何手机充电成了一门复杂的生意

本周在灰色地带节目中，我们将探讨记忆如何影响我们对自己及他人讲述的故事。

This week on the gray area, we're learning about how memory affects the stories we tell ourselves and each other.

人们往往更倾向于记住生活中的积极事件而非消极事件。但更重要的是，当他们重构这些记忆时，往往会美化自己的形象。随后你会据此构建出一个叙事框架——或许这个叙事会说'我们民族很伟大'，也可能说'我们曾经伟大，如今却糟糕透顶'。

People tend to remember positive events more from their lives than negative events. But more importantly, when they reconstruct them, they tend to remember themselves more positively. And then you construct a narrative out of it. And maybe that narrative is that our people are great. Maybe that narrative is we used to be great, and now we're terrible.

我们需要再次伟大起来。

We need to be great again.

欢迎在任意播客平台收听《灰色地带》节目，每周一更新新一期内容。

Listen to the gray area wherever you get your podcasts. New episodes every Monday.

我是亨利·布洛杰特。本周《解决方案》节目嘉宾：马克·库班。

I'm Henry Blodgett. This week on solutions, Mark Cuban.

在我看来，未来企业将分为两类：精通人工智能的公司，和濒临倒闭的公司。

To me, there's gonna be two types of companies, those who are great at AI and those who are out of business.

我们将讨论是否处于AI泡沫中，马克认为企业和应届毕业生该如何运用AI，以及他计划如何修复我们破碎的医疗体系——首先从药品价格着手，他通过其在线药店Cost Plus Drugs旨在大幅降低药价。进展如何？请在任意播客平台收听亨利·布洛杰特的《解决方案》节目。

We discuss if we are in an AI bubble, how Mark thinks businesses and new graduates should use AI, and how he plans to fix our broken health care system. He's starting with drug prices, which he aims to lower significantly through his online pharmacy, Cost Plus Drugs. How's it going? Find solutions with Henry Blodgett wherever you get your podcast.

大家好，欢迎收听Decoder。我是The Verge的主编尼尔·伊帕特尔，Decoder是我的节目，探讨宏大理念与其他难题。本周，我对话的是安克创新（Anchor）的创始人兼CEO阳萌。安克对我来说是个始终充满魅力的企业——阳萌于2011年创立它，如今已发展为拥有3000名员工的全球化公司，通过在亚马逊销售手机充电器和移动电源起家。

Hello, and welcome to Decoder. I'm Neil Ipatel, editor in chief of The Verge, and Decoder is my show about big ideas and other problems. This week, I'm talking to Steven Yang, the CEO and founder of Anchor. Now Anchor is one of those companies that's endlessly fascinating to me. Steven founded it in 2011, and since then, it's turned into a 3,000 person company that operates all over the world by selling phone chargers and battery packs on Amazon.

后来业务扩展到网络摄像头、蓝牙音箱和智能家居等领域。期间安克引领了充电技术的重大突破：还记得给iPhone充电慢如蜗牛的白色小方块吗？它采用硅材料，功率仅5瓦。而安克大胆押注氮化镓（GaN）材料，如今推出同尺寸却支持30瓦功率的充电器，甚至能为MacBook Air供电。

And it's since expanded to other categories like webcams and Bluetooth speakers and smart home products. Along the way, Anker's pioneered a major advancement in charging technology. You know that little white brick that takes forever to charge an iPhone? It's made using silicon and it puts out about five watts of power. Anker made a big bet on using a material called gallium nitride or GaN and now it has a charger the size of that iPhone brick that can put out 30 watts of power, enough to charge a MacBook Air.

这场豪赌大获成功，我一直好奇阳萌如何决策并执行。安克还身处复杂的政策环境：手机厂商为环保取消标配充电器，欧盟拟强制统一USB-C接口（包括当前使用Lightning的iPhone）。苹果自身通过MFi认证严格管控配件，参与该计划还需缴纳费用。

It was a big bet and it paid off and I've always been curious to know how Steven decided to make that bet and how he executed it. Anker also sits in the middle of a complicated set of politics and platform policies. Smartphone makers are taking the chargers out of phone boxes to save on e waste while the EU is considering mandating the USB C plug to charge phones, even iPhones which currently use Apple's lightning connector. And Apple itself strictly limits what accessories can officially connect to its devices under something called the Made for iPhone or MFI program. It also collects fees to participate in that program.

在The Verge多年采访中，配件厂商最恐惧的就是被踢出MFi体系——毕竟iPhone配件市场巨大。当然还有亚马逊：安克从亚马逊起家，至今大部分产品仍在此销售。阳萌透露，公司有100人（占总数3%）专职研究亚马逊平台运营策略。

At The Verge, we've talked to a lot of accessory makers over the years and getting kicked out of MFI terrifies them. IPhone accessories are a big market after all. And of course, there's Amazon. Anker started its business on Amazon and still sells most of its products on that platform. Steven told me that Anker has 100 people or fully 3% of the entire company dedicated to thinking about managing the Amazon marketplace.

这很有必要——去年夏天，多家竞品因刷好评被亚马逊封杀。我自然要请教阳萌对这些问题的看法。这就是Decoder的经典议题组合：氮化镓等技术豪赌、亚马逊DTC业务构建、平台关系管理、监管政策、平台费用...而这一切竟源于手机充电器。

And for good reason. This past summer, several of Anchor's competitors were banned from Amazon for breaking the guidelines around fake and paid five star reviews. So of course I had to ask Steven for his views on all of that. That's the full stack of decoder topics. Taking big bets on new technology like Allium Nitride, building a direct to consumer business on Amazon and the complexity of managing the Amazon relationship, regulatory issues, platform fees, you name it, and all because of phone chargers.

我说过，安克永远令人着迷。现在有请安克创新创始人兼CEO阳萌。阳萌先生，欢迎来到Decoder。

I told you, Anchor is endlessly fascinating. Okay. Steven Yang, the founder and CEO of Anchor Innovations. Steven Yang, you are the CEO of Anchor Innovations. Welcome to Decoder.

谢谢伊帕特尔，很荣幸参与。

Thank you, Yulai. It's a pleasure.

我们之前聊过。我在Vergecast上采访过你。自那以后发生了很多事，那已经是三年前了。所以有很多可以聊的。

You and I have talked before. I've interviewed you on the Vergecast. A lot of things have happened since then. That was three years ago now. So a lot to talk about.

但对于Decoder的听众，让我们从头开始。Anchor是为手机和电脑生产配件最成功的公司之一。你们已经扩展到其他品类，如音响、投影仪和家居用品。给我们讲讲Anchor吧。你们总部在哪里？

But for the Decoder audience, let's kinda start at the beginning. Anchor is one of the more successful companies that makes accessories for phones and computers. You've expanded into other categories like sound bars and projectors and and home goods. Tell us a little bit about Anchor. Where are you located?

你们有多少员工？最大的市场是哪些？

How many employees do you have? What are your biggest markets?

我们视Anchor为一家全球化公司。实际上我们很大一部分在中国进行产品开发，但全球各地也有数百名员工。我们在西雅图、洛杉矶、东京、澳大利亚、中东、东南亚和欧洲等地都设有办公室。产品方面，我们从充电设备、便携充电器起步，这几乎是初始品类，之后在Anker品牌下扩展到所有充电相关产品。后来，我们又将音频产品纳入产品线。

We like to think Anchor as a global company. A large part of us is in China actually working on product development, but there are also hundreds of us everywhere in the world. So we have offices in Seattle, in Los Angeles, in Tokyo, in Australia, Middle East, Southeast Asia, and Europe, and so on and so forth. Product wise, we started from charging, portable chargers, that's almost the beginning categories, and so expanded into everything charging under the Anker brand. Later, we added audio into our portfolio.

在Soundcore品牌下，我们有蓝牙音箱和蓝牙耳机。从2017年起，我们增加了智能家居产品。现在，Eufy品牌下有清洁机器人以及家庭安防产品。此外，还有一个名为Nebula的智能投影子品牌。这就是我们的三大加一个品牌。

Under the Soundcore brand, we have Bluetooth speakers and Bluetooth headsets. From 2017 on, we added Smart Home. Now, the Eufy brand, we have cleaning robots as well as actually home security products. And also, have a smart projector sub brand called Nebula. So that's our three plus one brands.

Sanker总共有多少人？规模多大？

How big total is Sanker? How many people?

我们现在有3000多人，刚超过这个数字。是的。

We're a little bit over 3,000 people now, just past that. Yeah.

哇。这比我们上次交谈时的增长幅度大多了，对吧？公司规模正在迅速扩大。

Wow. That's a that's a big growth from the last time we spoke. Right? The company's getting a lot bigger.

是的。我希望我们能保持这种势头，但实际上确实如此。开拓新品类需要投入大量精力才能真正进入并做好。

Yes. I hope we are, you know, still keeping that momentum, but actually yeah. So new categories take a lot of effort to really just, you know, get into and do welling.

三千人的规模已经算得上是相当大的公司了。你现在花在产品开发和日常管理——比如远程文化、国际贸易政策这些事务上的时间比例是怎样的？

3,000 people is, you know, right on the edge of being a pretty big company. How much of your time is spent on products and product development versus now managing all of this stuff, managing remote culture and, you know, international trade policy and things like that?

这个问题问得好。我确实深入思考过这个问题，可以分享一下。目前我们涉及约15个品类，不同品类间的复杂性正在快速增加。同时由于我们在三四十个国家开展业务且持续扩张，跨国运营的复杂性也在加剧。

That's actually a great question. And really, I spend a lot of thought on that, so I can share a bit of of that. So we are in 15 ish categories till this moment. Complexity among the different categories is just really increasing fast. And also, the complexity from multi countries as well, because we're in thirty, forty ish countries and increasing as well, so that complexity is increasing too.

当品类数量与国家数量相乘时，这种复杂性可以说已经超出了个人甚至小团队的管理能力上限。意识到这点后，我们进行了大量内部讨论，结论是我们不可能事无巨细地管理每个品类和每个区域的业务。必须将角色从管理者转变为赋能者——本质上就是把公司打造成一个产品平台，赋能全球团队自主开展品类运营、区域销售和品牌建设。所以我现在80%的时间都用在打造这个'公司产品'上，而非具体产品。

If you multiply that number of category and number of countries together, the complexity becomes really, I would say, hard to impossible to be managed by a single person, or even a small team. Realising that, we did much internal discussion, and the answer was there's no way we could just manage every category and the business in every region. We have to turn our roles from managing to empowering. Essentially, we just build the company as a product, could empower the people from all over the world to actually do the categories, do the regional sales work, do the brand work that they would like to accomplish. So, my time actually now is, I would say 80% of my time is spent on this company as a product rather than individual products.

所以我开玩笑说，有时候我都是在新闻稿里发现我们的新产品。

So I was I was joking. Sometimes I I discover new products in our press release too.

这很有意思。Anchor另一个重大变化是一年前在深交所创业板上市，作为上市公司CEO，工作性质发生了哪些变化？

That's pretty good. The other kind of big thing that's happened to Anchor recently, a year ago, you went public on the Chinext stock exchange in Shenzhen. You're a public company CEO now. That changes the job. What has changed for you now running a public company?

我不认为我没事。我想我确实成功地告诉自己一切都没变。

I don't I think okay. I think I I really succeeded in telling myself nothing changed.

嘿，这已经是进步了。

Hey. That's a step.

是啊。所以对我来说，真的没什么区别。有总裁和副总裁在，他们负责所有的汇报等等。所以对我来说，生活依旧。我从不查看我们的股价。

Yeah. So I for me, it's really no difference. With a president, DP, he handles all the reporting and so on and so forth. So, for me, it's like life stays on the same. I don't check our stock prices.

实际上从来没有。我的股票应用里没有它，我也从未看过。我只是表现得好像我们还处在过去的美好时光里。

Never ever, actually. It's not in my stock app, and I've never looked at it. I'm just acting as if we're just still the good old days.

上市给你们带来了什么额外能力吗？显然，这有助于融资。它让你们接触到新受众，提供了增长途径。那么上市的好处是什么？

Has going public given you any additional capabilities? Obviously, that helps you raise money. It it gives you new audiences. It provides avenues for growth. What are the benefits of going public then?

我认为我们在中国市场也越来越受欢迎。在那里上市确实帮助我们提升了知名度。在招聘方面也有帮助，因为人们现在知道这是一家上市公司，而不是一家不知来历的公司。因为，你知道，实际上我们在中国以外的知名度可能比国内更高，对吧？

I think we're, you know, again, getting more popular in the China market as well. Going listed in there actually definitely helped us to raise up the awareness part. Also, in terms of recruiting, that helped as well, because people now understand that this is a listed company instead of a company that I don't know where it's coming from. Because, you know, anecdotally, we're actually much more well known probably out of China than in China. Right?

这真的很有趣。我们来谈谈实际业务。业务中有多少仍然是销售充电器和配件，多少是Eufy家居产品或Soundcore产品之类的？

So That's really interesting. Let's talk about the actual business. How much of the business is still selling chargers and accessories, and how much is the Eufy Home products or the Soundcore products, things like that?

非充电业务增长快于充电业务。去年充电业务占比已不足50%，今年可能降至40%左右。音频业务约占30%稍低，智能家居产品略超30%，几乎形成充电、音频、智能家居三分天下的格局。

The non charging part is growing faster than charging. Last year, charging was already less than 50%. So this year, probably around 40 ish percent are charging. And then we have, I think, around 30 ish percent in audio, slightly less than 30%, and then a little bit more than 30% in smart home products. It's almost like three three three, so charging, audio, and then smart home.

先从充电业务谈起——毕竟我们今天对话当天，欧盟刚提出包括iPhone在内的所有设备都应采用USB-C接口。你们作为USB-C领域的先行者，如何看待欧盟将强制推行这一充电标准的决定？

Let's start with charging. I have to because we are literally talking on the day that the European Union proposed that everything be USB C, including the iPhone. You have been on the the front lines of USB C for years. What do you make of that announcement that the the European Union is gonna mandate this charging standard?

我们对此表示欢迎，真心实意地欢迎。记得我们2017或18年首次会面时...

We welcome that. We really welcome that. Right? So it's when we met the first time, I think it's 2017 or '18.

应该是18年。

I think it was '18.

当时就在那个会议室里，我们讨论过USB-C将如何席卷全球，人们如何用单一充电器为所有设备供电，以及由此每年能减少30万吨电子垃圾。令人欣慰的是，这些年我们正逐年见证预言成真——去年苹果取消标配充电器，今年欧盟更进一步推动改革。中国也正在制定法规要求充电协议互通。这已成为行业共识：让通用充电器为所有消费电子产品供电，这实在太棒了。

We were in that room actually talking about how USB C is going to take over the world, and how people are going to really just use a single charger to charge all of the devices, and how because of that, we're going to save 300,000 tons of e waste every year. Gladly, actually, the years, we're seeing this becoming true year after year. Last year, Apple decided to take the in box chargers out, and this year, actually, European Union is pushing that envelope even more. In China, there's regulations being established to enforce that the charges, the protocols are interchangeable as well. I think this is becoming a really common sense, or a common practice to really just have interchangeable chargers to feed all our consumer electronics products, which is which is super.

苹果三星都不再标配充电器，加上国际监管压力...电子垃圾问题稍后再谈，我更好奇实际操作层面：不配充电器是否意味着你们充电器销量增加了？

Apple doesn't have chargers in the box. Samsung doesn't have chargers in the box anymore. There is this sort of international regulatory pressure. We should talk about e waste, but I'm curious from nuts and bolts level. No chargers in the box.

这是否意味着你们充电器卖得更多了？

Does that mean you're selling more chargers?

是的，数量要多得多。因为对许多用户来说，充电器实际上是一个全新的品类。这些用户过去根本没有单独购买充电器的概念，他们只是用设备原配的充电器，不会自行额外购置。

Yeah. A lot more. Because the charger is actually a new category for a lot of users. Because for these users, previously, there was no category such as a charger because they just get whatever is coming from the device, and they just use that. They don't just buy a charger by themselves.

现在随着包装盒内不再标配充电器，根据我们的调查，约50%用户仍在使用旧充电器。虽然这些年他们积攒了一些，但越来越多人开始单独购买。当然其中大部分会选择设备原厂品牌，比如苹果或三星充电器。但这仍给我们第三方充电器品牌创造了接触用户、向他们展示产品优势的机会。

So now, as there's no longer chargers in the box, per our survey, about 50% of them still rely on using their old chargers. Over the years, they've saved some, but more and more people start to really just shop individual ones. Of course, a large fraction of them will go to the device brand. For example, they'll to buy an Apple charger or a Samsung charger. But still, that gives us a chance, a third party charger brand, to reach them and to really just, you know, inform them on the superiority of our charger.

比如我们的小巧体积、高功率输出、耐用性，以及能完美兼容各品牌设备的充电能力。

You know, the small size, the high power, the durability, as well as the ability to just, you know, charge devices from all the brands well.

这本质上是个电子垃圾问题对吧？当初的理念是停止随盒配送充电器，因为用户可能已有充电器或旧手机。

This is kind of the e waste question. Right? The idea was we're gonna stop putting the chargers in the box. You probably have a charger already. You probably have already had a phone.

或许他们仍保留着旧充电器。我们通过强制或协商让厂商取消标配充电器，本意是让用户利用现有配件以减少电子垃圾。但你说消费者反而购买了更多充电器？你认为这对减少电子垃圾产生了实质效果吗？

You might still have a charger. We mandate or otherwise get the manufacturers to take the charger out of the box. The idea is you're going to use your existing charger and we're going to save the e waste. But you're saying consumers are responding to this by buying a lot more chargers. Do you think that there's been a meaningful effect on e waste?

首先，包装盒取消充电器本身已是巨大节约。以100人为例，我们已节省了100个充电器。而根据调查，其中约50%甚至更多人...

Well, first of all, when there's no chargers in the box, that's already a lot of savings. Okay. Right. And then let's say for 100 people, we saved 100 charges already. And then a large fraction of them, again, per our survey will be like 50% or even more.

...他们不会再额外购买。但仍有部分用户，特别是那些持有慢速充电器的群体...

So, they'll just buy nothing more. But then there are still a fraction of them, especially the chargers that they have were slow charging chargers.

经典的苹果充电器是

The classic Apple charger is

是的。没错。

Yes. Yes.

五瓦慢速充电器。对。

Five watt slow charging charger. Yes.

我们还了解到通过PD协议实现的快充技术，能在不到三十分钟内为手机充入50%电量。这非常实用，对日常生活帮助很大。既然包装盒里不附带，你就得另寻途径购买。你可以选择网购苹果原装充电器，或者来Anchor选购我们的产品。我们的充电器体积只有苹果的大约几分之一。

And we learned about the fast charging through PD, which could charge your phone 50% in less than thirty minutes. That is really practical and that's really helpful in our daily lives. When it's not coming in the box, you've got to get it somewhere. So you go online, you either shop the Apple charger, or you can come to Anchor and get an Anchor charger. We're just, like, a fraction of the the size of an Apple charger.

所以有些人冲着这种高效能选择我们。

So some people come to us for that, you know, sort of efficiency.

你认为如果现在有50%的人需要购买，下一代手机这个比例会降低吗？毕竟他们家里可能已经备有高质量的Ankur充电器了？

Do you think that if it's 50% now, do you think the next phone generation, that percentage will be lower because they have a high quality Ankur charger at home already?

是的。我认为随着时间推移这个比例会下降，因为人们已经拥有充电器——最好是配备了适用于不同生活场景的Ankur充电器。这样他们就能跳过购买充电器的环节，直接享受设备带来的乐趣。

Yeah. I think over time that percentage will go lower, because people already get chargers, hopefully get equipped with Ankur chargers in different life occasions or scenarios that they need to use their charger on. So they could happily skip the, you know, the buy charger part and just enjoy their devices.

你是否注意到人们在购买新充电器时，正从旧的矩形接口USB-A转向新的USB-C接口？

Do you see a shift towards USB c from USB a, which was the old rectangle connector, towards the new USB c connector when people are buying new chargers?

是的。比如，我们的USB-A线缆销量基本持平甚至略有下降，而USB-C线缆的销量增长非常迅速。

Yeah. Like, our USB a cable volume was, like, flat or even dropped a little bit, and USB c cable's volume were increasing very fast.

我们需要短暂休息一下，回来后我们将讨论氮化镓——这种使充电器更小巧的新材料，以及Anchor如何凭借这项技术成为市场领导者。

We need to take a quick break, but when we come back, we're gonna talk about gallium nitride, the new material enabling smaller chargers, and how Anchor has positioned itself as a market leader with that technology.

数百名得克萨斯国民警卫队士兵已抵达伊利诺伊州，正准备在芝加哥部署。当地居民一直在抵制移民海关执法局（ICE），他们甚至阻止国土安全部部长克里斯蒂·诺姆使用洗手间。

Hundreds of Texas National Guard troops have arrived in Illinois and are getting ready to deploy in Chicago. Residents there have been pushing back against ICE. They blocked DHS secretary Christy Noem from using the bathroom.

州长弗里茨克称这是保障民众安全的合作行为。

That's what governor Fritzker says is cooperation in keeping people safe.

然后，实际上还有更多关于洗手间的事情。

Then, actually, even more bathroom stuff.

他们甚至不允许我们的ICE官员和边境巡逻人员使用洗手间和其他设施。

They don't even let our ICE officers and our border patrol officers use restrooms and facilities.

但这并不全与洗手间有关。

But it's not all bathroom related.

你要用那把枪对付自己人。真为你感到羞耻。我希望此刻你的祖先正看着你。

You're gonna use that gun on your people. Shame on you. I hope right now your ancestors are looking at you. And

这种紧张局势，加上特朗普总统清晨呼吁将伊利诺伊州州长关押起来，引发了人们对接下来会发生什么的担忧。这是Vox每日解释的今日内容。

this tension combined with president Trump's early morning call for the governor of Illinois to be jailed has raised fears about what is coming next. That's on today explained from Vox every weekday.

本周《Net Worth and Chill》节目，我们邀请了畅销书作家兼领导力专家苏西·韦尔奇，她数十年来一直帮助人们在工作和生活中取得成功。从在知名出版物攀登企业阶梯，到与杰克·韦尔奇合著《赢》，苏西将她的见解转化为职业成功和巨额财富。她坦诚分享了如何应对重大人生转折、为何热爱工作实际上是积累财富的策略，以及她的ViewBridge工具如何能改变你最重要的职业决策。我脑海中也有阻止我押注自己的声音。我当时想，为什么

This week on Net Worth and Chill, we're joined by Susie Welch, the best selling author and leadership expert who spent decades helping people win at work and life. From climbing the corporate ladder at prestigious publications to co authoring Winning with Jack Welch, Susie has turned her insights into both career success and serious money. She opens up about navigating major life transitions, why loving your work is actually a wealth building strategy, and how her ViewBridge tool can transform your biggest career decisions. I also had voices in my head that were preventing me from betting on myself. I was like, why

我要押注自己？当我最终迈出那一步，投身于我的使命时，我独自一人在深夜的房间里，生平第一次想到：我要做这件可怕的事。我要提升自己。

would I bet on myself? I mean, the moment I finally stepped out and stepped into my purpose, I literally, like, I was alone in my room at night, and I thought for the first time in my life, I'm gonna do this terrifying thing. I'm gonna better myself.

在任意播客平台收听或观看youtube.com/yourrichBFF。

Listen wherever you get your podcasts or watch on youtube.com slash your rich BFF.

我们再次与斯蒂芬·杨对话。上次2018年交谈时，你对氮化镓非常热衷。

We're back with Stephen Yang. The last time we talked in 2018, you were very excited about gallium nitride.

是的。

Yep.

氮化镓（GaN）取代了硅和充电器中的传统材料，能在更小的体积内提供更大功率，这就是充电器能做得更小的原因。当时这似乎是推动整个市场的关键技术。几年过去了，它的发展是否符合你的预期？

GaN, which replaces silicon and chargers. It can allow you to provide more power in smaller form factors. That's why your chargers can be smaller. At the time, that seemed like a key enabling technology for that entire market. And several years later, has it played out the way you think it should have?

没错。过去几年我们已经售出大量GaN充电器，对吧？今年早些时候我们还推出了第二代产品GaN2，现在65瓦功率也能做到非常紧凑的体积。实际上我们明年即将发布GaN3，尺寸会更小，功率也会更高。

Yeah. We sold a lot of GaN chargers already in the past years, few years, right? And then we launched the second generation, we call them GaN two, earlier this year. So you can now do 65 watt in, again, very small cubic space as well. We're about actually to launch GANS three next year, which will bring the size even smaller, and to get the power rating higher as well.

正如你可能注意到的，设备功耗越来越大，充电速度越来越快。十年前手机充电功率只有5瓦，后来提升到10瓦，苹果将其提高到20瓦，其他安卓品牌甚至达到40-60瓦。但我觉得讨论瓦数对消费者不够友好，更应该关注充电时长。

So, as you probably could see, devices are becoming more power hungry and charging at a higher speed. So, phones ten years ago was like five watts. Later, it was 10, and Apple has brought it up to 20, and the other Android brand has brought it up to like 40 to 60 watt. I think talking about wattage is like a not customer friendly approach, right? So, talking about charging time.

过去充电需要约三小时，20瓦充电器缩短至约1小时20分钟，40-60瓦则进一步减少到30-40分钟。有些激进品牌甚至推出120瓦快充，不到20分钟就能充满手机。这是手机方面的情况。

So, the charge time used to be like three hours ish. So, it's been brought down to like one hour and twenty minutes ish with the 20 watt. And then, to about thirty to forty minutes with the 40 to 60 Watt. And there are even more sort of adventurous brand doing like 120 Watt, which will get the phone fully charged in less than twenty minutes. And so that's on the phone side.

你可以看到手机厂商在这场充电竞赛中不断加码，提高功率并缩短时间。这种竞争也蔓延到笔记本领域——超级本从30瓦提升到45、60瓦甚至更高，游戏本的功率也在全面上涨。今年我们发布的双口产品主要是65瓦或最高90瓦，我们认为这已经足够。

And you're seeing that sort of, that competition going on, the phone manufacturers really just sort of escalating on that charging power rating, and then reducing the charging time. And that same competition has been moving to laptops too. Like Superbooks, it used to be like 30 watt, so now it's ramping up to 45, 60, and up as well. And gaming books, again, that power rating were all, like, going up. So this year, for the, like, you know, dual port product we announced, it was, mostly 65 watt or up to 90 watt, and we feel that's enough.

但展望未来，我们认为多口充电器可能需要达到150瓦、200瓦甚至250瓦，因为要同时支持例如60瓦的手机和120瓦的笔记本等设备。

But looking forward, we feel the multiport product would probably have to be like 150 watt or 200 watt or even two fifty watts because it would have to support, for example, a 60 watt phone, like 120 watt laptop, and

是的。

Yeah.

没错，还有几样东西。这样加起来很快就到200瓦了。以这种功率等级，你真的需要氮化镓来缩小充电器的体积。因为我不确定你是否记得游戏本配的那些适配器，就是那些大砖块。

Yeah, a few other things. That's quickly adding up to 200. So at this power's rating, you really need gallium nitride to reduce the size of that charger. Because I'm not sure if you remember the chargers, the adapter that's coming with the gaming laptops, the big bricks.

巨型砖块。

The huge bricks.

对。那种大概200瓦左右吧？你肯定不想随身带着200瓦的砖头。所以用氮化镓技术，我们就能把200瓦功率做到原来体积的一小部分。

Yeah. That was like 200 watt ish. Right? You don't want to carry that 200 watt brick everywhere. So with gallium nitride, we can just make 200 watt in a very small fraction of that size.

所以氮化镓是这项关键赋能技术。它大约三年前进入市场，你们已经在讨论第三代了。这需要投入工程资源吗？是否有稳定的供应商渠道？

So gallium nitride is this key enabling technology. It hit the market three ish years ago. You're already talking about the third generation. Is that something that you have to invest engineering resources in? Is there a supplier pipeline?

材料科学研发管线是否完善？你们如何管理这类投资？

Is there a material science pipeline? How do you manage that investment?

其实Anker是消费电子充电领域首个引入氮化镓技术的品牌。我们能实现这点，是因为与开发氮化镓充电芯片的前沿芯片制造商建立了合作。我们几乎是他们的首批客户。芯片刚研发出来时，需要攻克大量技术难关才能真正产品化。这不完全是材料科学的问题，还涉及应用技术、系统架构设计、散热管理等综合知识。

Well, Anker was the first to actually introduce gallium nitride on consumer electronics charging. The way we were able to do that was actually we partnered with the frontier chipset manufacturers who actually developed the gallium nitride charging chip. Then we're almost their alpha customer, or the first customer. When a chip is first developed, a lot of effort, a lot of hops you have to jump through to actually really just make it into a product. These are not entirely material science knowledge, but application knowledge, system architecture knowledge, knowledge about managing heat, and other things.

所以，这几乎是一个系统性的努力。我认为我们在这一端积累了知识，然后与氮化镓芯片制造商合作，共同将其融入产品中。今年你们看到的GaN二代，在65瓦和30瓦的尺寸上，我们实际上与Power Innovations PI合作了近一年。这是最新一代的产品，是全新一代的氮化镓芯片，而且非常独特。

So, it's almost like a system effort. I think we accumulate knowledge in that end, and then just couple that together with gallium nitride chipset manufacturer to just together build it into products. You're seeing the GaN two this year, At that size, the 65 watt size and the 30 watt size, we've been working with Power Innovations PI for actually almost a year on that. It's the latest generation. It's a brand new generation of GaN chips, and it's unique as well.

因此，我们在今年年中推出了Gantu。65瓦的尺寸再次成为竞争对手中的一小部分。我们能做到这一点，实际上是基于Power Innovations最新一代的氮化镓芯片。我们作为独家合作伙伴开发了近一年。所以至少在接下来的三到六个月内，你们不会看到其他品牌推出类似产品，因为我们一直在独家合作。

So, we launched Gantu mid of this year. So, 65 watt size was, again, a fraction of the competition now. The reason we were able to do that was actually based on Power Innovation's latest, or the newest generation of GaN chip. So, we've been the sole partner for almost a year developing that. So you'll not be seeing similar products at least three to six months coming from other brands because we're just working together solely.

所以你们有独家关系来推出下一代氮化镓芯片组。你们获得了这个窗口期。三到六个月后，其他人才能购买这款芯片组。是的，没错。

So you had an exclusive relationship to bring up the next generation GaN chipset. You get that window. Three to six months later, other people can buy that chipset. Yeah. Yeah.

所以你们在讨论芯片组。你们的所有业务都涉及芯片。是的。我们在节目中花了很多时间讨论芯片短缺问题。是的。

So you're talking about chipsets. All of your businesses have chips in them. Yep. We spent a lot of time on the show talking about the chip shortage. Yep.

芯片短缺对你们的影响有多大？

How impacted by the chip shortage are you?

影响很大。每天就像在灭火，每天都有不同的火要灭。是的。特别是我们已经熬过了整整一年。我都不知道怎么说。

A lot. It's like fire every day, different fire every day. So, yeah. And especially, we've gone through it through a whole year. You become I don't know.

你会变得无所谓。好吧。所以没关系。新的火来了，我们就去扑灭它。

You become okay. All right. So it's fine. A new fire. Let's go put it off.

那么最大的影响在哪里呢？

Where is the biggest impact then?

我们确实拥有不同的产品线。总的来说，最大的挑战来自于采用八英寸晶圆制造的芯片组。

We really have, you know, different product lines. And in general, the biggest challenges come from chipsets that's made by the eight inch wafers.

嗯。

Mhmm.

因为八英寸晶圆算是过时的技术，但仍被许多芯片使用。而十二英寸晶圆的供应正在增加，实际上并不那么稀缺。但挑战在于，当你将芯片组的生产从八英寸转向十二英寸时，必须经历大量认证流程，几乎像是重新验证产品。不同行业实际上需要不同的努力或周期来验证他们的产品。

Because eight inch wafers are sort of outdated technology, but still used by a lot of chips. Right? And 12 inches supplies are increasing and really not that scarce. But the challenge is, when you shift a chipset to be manufactured by eight inches to 12 inches, you have to go through a lot of qualification processes, almost like reverifying that product again. But different industries actually take different effort or different cycles to verify their products.

我认为汽车行业显然需要最长的时间。他们可能需要一两年，甚至三到五年来验证一个芯片组。由于这种巨大的成本转变，八英寸晶圆的产能大部分是为他们保留的。而消费电子类别，虽然我们仍需验证这种转变，但时间相对较短，对吧？一两个月，而不是两年。

I think the car industry, they obviously take the longest time. They probably need to take a year or two years to verify, or even three years to five years to verify a chipset. Because of that huge shift in cost, so the eight inches wafer capacity was largely reserved for them. And the consumer electronics category, again, still we need to verify that transition, but it's just relatively shorter time, right? A month or two months, rather than two years, right?

因此，我们被要求更多地完成这种转变。所以全年都有大量的验证工作在进行。但我想，这算是履行社会责任吧。

So, we are asked to do the shift more. So, it's a lot of verification work going on throughout the whole year. But, yeah, I think that's that's, you know, just response social responsibility. Yeah.

我的意思是，这个问题可能在每一期节目里都会出现，所以我总是很好奇。

I mean, it it comes up on maybe every episode of the show, so I'm always curious.

酷。

Cool.

有些技术看似能带来新功能，而有些则仿佛会永远拖我们后腿。苹果著名的MFi（Made for iPhone）计划就是个例子。即使在Anchor的产品线或其他品牌中，也能看到内置苹果芯片的无线充电器支持快充，而外观完全相同但未经认证的产品充电速度就慢得多。这实在太令人沮丧了。说说你们是如何应对MFi认证的。

There are some technologies that seem like they will enable new capabilities and then there are some things that seem like they're just gonna hold us back forever. Apple famously has the MFI program made for iPhone. Even in Anchor's product line, other product lines, I see there are wireless chargers that have Apple's chip in them that enable faster charging, and there are products that look exactly the same without that certification that charge slower. That has to be so frustrating. Tell me how you're dealing with MFI.

告诉我，这是行业现状，还是你们和苹果之间存在拉锯战？具体是怎样的？

Tell me, is that just the state of things, or is there a push and pull with Apple? How does that go?

我认为我们当然能理解苹果这么做的缘由。看看市场上那些非MFi认证的劣质数据线——比如5美元能买五条的Lightning线，它们真的会损坏设备。MFi模块里的认证芯片至少能让消费者辨别这是否是正品苹果线缆。

I think we can certainly see, you know, the where it's coming from and why, Apple needs that. If you look at the market, there's just a whole lot of non MFi cables out there, which are just really harmful to your device. Like, there are cables which you can get five lightning cables for $5 or even less. And this actually do fry your phones. With that authentication chip in the MFi module, so at least customers could be informed if this is an authentic Apple cable or not.

但我觉得或许有其他解决方案，比如真正强制执行统一的线缆制造标准。当通用标准完善后，就不再需要这么多私有标准了。不过建立和推行通用标准也需要投入大量精力，所以目前我们仍在观望，但尚未看到实质性进展。

But I think there could be potential other ways to solve the same problem by, for example, by really enforcing just universal standard of actually how you should make a cable. I think when the universal standard is up, then you no longer need that much of a proprietary standard, But there's always a push and pull, because they also need to have a lot of effort involved in building a universal standard and enforcing it too. So, so far, I think we're looking up to that, but we're really not seeing that much of work happening.

我在另一档节目《The Vergecast》里经常开玩笑说，我对车载充电器毫无抵抗力——每次看到新品就会冲动消费，简直是养活整个Instagram广告生态的冤大头。现在苹果又推出了手机磁吸充电新标准MagSafe。

I tell this joke on my other show, The Vergecast, all the time. I am an absolute sucker for car chargers. Every time I see one, I it's real bad. I am the entire Instagram advertising economy. Apple has a new standard called MagSafe magnetic charging system for their phones.

没错。

Yep.

据我所知，目前市面上还没有一款真正优秀的MFI认证MagSafe车载充电器，那种苹果官方认证的快速充电车载支架，可以固定在车上并夹住手机。为什么会这样？

There is not, as far as I can tell, a great MFI MagSafe car charger, an Apple approved fast charging car charger that, like, mounts to your car and you can clip your phone in. Why is that?

重申一下，苹果的标准很高对吧？而且我认为，车内高温环境与无线设备工作时的发热叠加是个挑战，但我们很快会解决这个问题——希望如此。这是个承诺...或者由其他人来实现。

Again, Apple has high standard. Right? And I think coupling, you know, the heated environment in the car was actually, you know, the wireless devices being heated while working as well. I think that could be a challenge, but we'll solve it soon, hopefully, sometime. That's a promise Or somebody else.

还是说你们正在研发这类产品？

Or some are you working on one?

我不确定。因为就像我说的，我也是通过...这种方式来了解我们的产品。事情就是这样，对吧？

I don't know. Because again, I I was telling you, I'm discovering, you know, our products through. That's what it's too. Right?

噢伙计，你这完全是准备好的托词啊。你自己挖坑自己跳了。嘿，我是莱伊。

Oh, man. You came in. That's a ready made dodge from the question. You set yourself up. Hey, it's me, Lai.

在我们录制后，安克发布了几款利用iPhone磁吸功能的车载充电器，但它们并非MFI认证产品，只是基于标准Qi协议的磁吸充电。我们联系安克获取声明，他们提供了史蒂文的这段话：虽然无法评论苹果MFI认证计划，但通过MagGo系列，安克正全面进军磁吸充电产品领域。

Since we recorded, Anker has released some chargers that use the magnets in the iPhone including a car charger, but they're not MFI. They just use the magnets in standard Qi charging. We went back and asked Anker for a statement and they sent back this quote from Steven. Here it is. While I can't comment on Apple's MFI certification program, I will say that with the new MagGo lineup, Anker is making a major move into magnetic charging products and accessories.

这六款新品都更注重色彩、材质选择和工业设计。这代表着安克的未来方向——为消费者提供融合尖端充电技术与个性美学设计的产品。以上就是声明内容。好的，回到访谈。

With each of our six new products, there is a stronger focus on color, material choices, and industrial design. This is the future of Anker giving consumers products that combine the world's most advanced charging technology with designs that complement the consumer's unique style. There you have it. Alright. Back to the interview.

我想转向那些支持性技术，比如USB4、Thunderbolt4，市场上不断涌现新的连接和标准。这些会对你们的业务产生影响吗？

I wanna switch to, you know, enabling technologies. There is USB four. There's Thunderbolt four. There are new connections and standards in the market. Is that stuff that impacts your business?

毕竟你们并不完全掌控这些标准对吧？但你们能预见它们的到来，是如何为此做规划的？

Because you're not necessarily in control of those standards. Right? But you have you see them coming. How do you plan for them?

有趣的是，我们再次成为英特尔的首批合作伙伴，率先将Thunderbolt4扩展坞推向市场。

So interestingly, we are, like, again, the first partner to work with Intel to bring, like, a Thunderbolt four docking stations to the market as well.

哦，太棒了。

Oh, that's great.

我认为品牌方确实将Anchor视为值得信赖且高效的新技术开发者。正因如此，芯片制造商和技术赋能者都会主动找我们合作。我们很荣幸能成为新技术与终端用户之间的桥梁。

I think, you know, brands really like they they they see Anchor as a trustworthy and efficient developer on the new technologies. So, that's why chipset manufacturers come to us and technology enablers come to us as well. So, we're happy to be the bridge between that, you know, new technology and the audiences, the the the customer base.

你觉得Thunderbolt4设备会降价吗？目前定位还比较高端，未来会更普及吗？

Do you think the Thunderbolt four stuff is gonna get cheaper? Is that it's been pretty high end so far. Is it gonna get more mainstream?

当然。以氮化镓为例，我们首款30瓦产品最初售价30美元左右，这些年价格下降得非常快。

Yeah. Sure. I mean, if you look at gallium nitride. Right? So our first 30 watt was, you know, I don't know, $30, and it's getting cheaper over the years quickly.

所以我认为两者兼有，希望这也是一回事。这始终是，你知道的，规模法则。对吧？是的。

So I think some of both, you know, it's hopefully the same thing too. That's always, you know, the law of magnitude. Right? Yeah.

你之前提到5美元五根充电线，以及解决劣质充电线可能烧毁手机问题的不同方法。在这个生态系统中，亚马逊似乎是最大的参与者之一，因为它会把那些廉价产品直接列在你的产品旁边，紧挨着正版产品。至少在美国，你们的主要销售渠道仍是亚马逊。这种关系如何？这些年有变化吗？

You were talking about five charging cables for $5 and different ways to solve that problem of cheap cables that might actually fry your phone. It seems like one of the the biggest actors in that ecosystem is Amazon because Amazon will list those cheap products right next to yours, right next to the licensed products. A lot of your presence in The United States at least is Amazon still. What is that relationship like? Has it changed over the years?

亚马逊仍是你们的主要零售渠道吗？你们是否在尝试多元化？

Is that still the primary retail channel for you? Are you trying to diversify?

亚马逊仍占我们业务的一半以上。实际上我们正努力成为真正的品牌，希望实现全渠道销售。如今你已能在所有主要零售渠道找到Anker产品：好市多、沃尔玛、塔吉特、百思买、威瑞森等等。我认为我们正在实现成为你首选的充电品牌这一目标，即全渠道覆盖。至于假冒伪劣产品，我认为亚马逊已在这方面付出很多努力。

Amazon's still more than half of our business. We're actually really just to become a brand, we'd hope to be omni channel as well. So, today, actually, you'll be able to find anchoring all the major retail channels: Costco, Walmart, Target, Best Buy, Verizon, and so on and so forth. So, I think we're just reaching that goal of becoming your go to charging brand, which is omnichannel. So, when talking about counterfeit or fake products, I think Amazon has taken a lot of effort to work on that.

只是这类问题太多了，因为根据程序，你必须先送实验室检测，获得认证后才能采取行动。这需要时间。是的，我觉得这就像一场猫鼠游戏，你知道的，永无止境。是的。

It's just too much of that, because under the procedure, you have to test by, you have to send it to a lab, and then you have to get the certification, and then you can do something. So, that takes time. Yeah, I think it's it's like a cat and mouse game. That's, like, you know, forever. Yeah.

我们刚看到一波你们的竞争对手，比如RAVPower、Show Tech等直接与你们竞争的品牌，因操纵评论系统、向未购买产品的用户索要评价而被亚马逊下架。你们是否尝试过这种手段？是完全避开了？还是说参与这个生态系统就必然面临这种风险？

We just saw a wave of your competitors, like RAVPower and Show Tech and other brands that were kind of competing directly with you get kicked off of Amazon for gaming the review system, for asking for reviews from people who hadn't bought products in Amazon. Is that a game that you have tried to play? Is that something you've totally avoided? Is that just a risk of participating in that ecosystem?

我们总是告诉朋友们，我们的充电器与你提到的某些品牌完全不同。如果你拆解它们，送检测机构测试，就会发现这些充电器尤其在耐用性和安全性上截然不同。多年前我们刚在亚马逊销售时，第一件事就是研读《亚马逊社区政策》。这份三四页的文件列明了很多禁止事项，但对某些人来说，这些也可能是快速赚钱的途径。是的。

We always tell, like, our friends that our charges are not the same as actually chargers from some of the brands that you mentioned. So, if you tear them apart, if you send them through testing facilities, you really see that these chargers are not the same, especially in terms of durability and safety. So, years ago, we started selling on Amazon, so the first thing we read was the Amazon Community Policy. It's a three pages, four pages document, which describe a lot of things that you can't do, but also for some, it could be the ways to make quick money. Yeah.

对吧？所以对我们来说，我们真正致力于建立一个持久的企业。因此，我们非常确保自己远离并避免做任何违反社区政策的事情。虽然我不能评论他人，但这就是我要求团队遵循的方式。

Right? So, for us, we really aim to build a long lasting business. So, we just made very sure that we stay off and we don't do anything. That's forbidden in this community policy. So, you know, I can't talk about others, but that's how, you know, I sort of asked my team to do.

当我们与其他参与亚马逊销售的卖家交流时——参与亚马逊的方式多种多样——但获取好评并保持高排名的压力确实存在。这种压力如何影响您及您对业务的思考？

When we talk to other sellers who participate in Amazon, and there's lots of ways to participate in Amazon, But the pressure to get good reviews and stay high in the rankings is real. How does that pressure impact you and how you think about your business?

这完全取决于你如何引导这种压力。如果将其导向销售部门并说'你们必须为产品获得好评'，结果会很糟糕。但如果将其导向产品团队、产品经理和质量工程师，情况就不同了。从最初开始，我们就分析评论，总结客户不满的主要问题，并努力修复或开发新产品来解决这些问题。通过解决问题和打造更好的产品来获得更好的评价，这就是我们过去十年应对评价压力的方式。

It really totally depends on how you direct that pressure. If you direct that towards your sales department and say, Hey, you guys have to get good reviews for products, you get bad results. But if you direct that towards your product team, towards your product managers, your quality engineers. So, from the first days on, we analyze our reviews and just pick out and summarize the major points that customers are not happy with, and try very hard to work on either fixing it or build a new product that fix it. So, just by fixing issues and build better products and to get better reviews, that's how we've been taking that review pressure for the past ten years.

这已成为公司的核心理念，由好评驱动。但最近我们也意识到这种方法的弊端。因为当你进入全新、极具冒险性的品类时，很难一开始就获得4.5星评价。如果初期过分关注评价，反而会限制重大创新的空间。

It's becoming really just a core of this company. It's driven by good review. But recently, we also realized that that approach had cons as well. Because when you look at brand new categories, categories that are so new and so adventurous that the reviews are just it's very hard to get 4.5 star reviews. If you focus on reviews too much in the beginning, you actually sort of reframe yourself from making big innovations.

所以现在我们尝试平衡：对于现有产品，产品团队必须交付获得好评的产品；但对于无人涉足的全新品类，允许通过产品迭代逐步提升评价。

So, now we're trying to balance a little bit, to say, hey, for this product that's already there, our product team has to deliver a product that has great reviews. But for some brand new categories that nobody else has worked on, it's okay to say have an improving review through different generation of products.

你们进入过哪些愿意承担这种风险并专注于持续改进的产品类别？

What's a product category you've entered where you've been willing to take that risk and focus on improvement?

比如较新的会议音箱品类。我们做过普通音箱，但会议音箱是首次尝试。首款产品上市初期评分约3.8-3.9分，但团队迅速收集反馈进行改进。虽然我们在多种场景下测试，但总有未覆盖的用户场景。好在可以通过软件更新调整算法参数来解决问题。

The newer ones, for example, conference speakers. Yes, we did speakers before, but we didn't do conference speakers. The first model we put to the market, at the beginning, was 3.8, 3.9 ish, but then the team quickly worked on, collected the feedbacks. We tested in different scenarios, but there are always consumer scenarios we didn't have the chance to test. And the good thing with that is there could be software updates just to fine tune the algorithms to shift some metrics or some parameters to fix the problems.

所以，是的，那个评分很快就会达到4.5左右。

So, yeah, that review rating got to be 4.5 ish very soon.

我必须问一下，因为我是一名产品评测员。

I have to ask because I'm a product reviewer.

是的。

Yeah.

你们对专业评测员的关注程度和亚马逊评论一样多吗？是更多还是更少？这具体是怎么运作的？

Do you pay attention to the professional reviewers as much as the Amazon reviews? Do you pay more less attention and more attention? How does that play out?

当然，实际上很关注，因为你们接触的产品更多。对吧？所以我们不仅会阅读你们写的文章，还会通过常规的沟通渠道获取更多反馈，这些可能无法全部整理成文章。是的，我们认为你们非常重要。

Surely, actually, attentions because you guys see just many more products. Right? So it's not only, like, we read through the the articles you guys write, but also, again, through sort of the regular communication channels where hopefully to get, you know, more feedbacks that we're not able to be just, you know, putting together the article. Yeah. We'll see you guys very importantly.

是啊。你知道，这没关系。有些人告诉我我们已经完全不重要了。比如，当你有亚马逊那种实时反馈时，我一直很好奇。

Yeah. You know, it's it's fine. Some people have told me that we don't matter anymore at all. Like, I when you have that kind of real time feedback from Amazon, I I've always been curious.

我觉得这就像两个极端。对吧？一方面是评测的质量，另一方面是评测的数量、评测的量级。对吧？

I think it's like two ends. Right? One is about the quality of the review. One is about the the volume of the review, the quantity of the review. Right?

所以我们会有，比如10个、20个或40个人讨论同一个观点。这种情况本身也有一定分量。

So we get, you know, 10 or 20 or 40 people talking about the same point. That also weighs something as well.

我们在亚马逊评论中看到很多游戏化现象。竞争对手会留下差评，而企业则试图鼓励客户留下好评。这对你们在平台上的运营有影响吗？你认为这是个风险吗？

We see a lot of gamification in Amazon reviews. Competitors will leave negative reviews. Companies are trying to encourage their customers to leave positive reviews. Has that impacted you on the platform? Do you see that as a risk?

是否因此你们在流程中设置了很多防范措施？

Is that so many guard against your process there?

重申一次，当我们说严格遵守社区政策时，意味着我们不会通过激励手段提升评论数量，实际上我们也不会利用评论暗中贬低他人。

So again, when we say we really abide by the community policies, that means we don't improve our reviews by incentivizing them, or actually, we don't, you know, try to use reviews to subtouch others as well.

但其他商家正在对你们这么做。你们有发现这种情况吗？

But others are doing that to you. Do you see that happening to you?

是的。我们确实发现了。例如，突然之间我们商品页面的顶部评论都变成了无效评论，因为很多人给这些差评点了'有用'标记，

Yes. We do see that. For example, like, all of a sudden, like the reviews, the top reviews that's on our listing, all become like inactive reviews, because a lot of people clicked on this negative reviews to say helpful,

数量很多

a lot of them

会点击'有帮助'、点赞评论，这些负面评论会被顶到前面。但我认为亚马逊在这方面确实做得越来越好了。我是算法出身，职业生涯早期就研究算法，所以我坚信对抗这些欺诈算法其实很容易。从这些行为中可以收集到大量信号来判定它们属于异常行为。

would click on helpful, like reviews, these negative reviews got to be moved to the top. But I think Amazon was, again, doing an increasingly better job at identifying this. I'm an algorithm guy. Worked on algorithms early on in my career, so I strongly believe that it's easy to actually fight these feared algorithms. There are so many signals you can collect from these behaviours to really tell that these are abnormal behaviours.

比如本周突然有100、200甚至400人集中给多条差评点击'有帮助'，这绝对是异常行为。你只需要想办法过滤掉它们。但更好的做法是找到源头，因为他们很可能不仅针对你的产品，也在对其他人的产品做同样的事。毕竟创建虚假账号是有成本的——任何机制都存在投资回报率问题。

For example, 100 or 200 people, or even 400 people coming in this week and clicking on several negative review and saying these are helpful. These are definitely abnormal behaviors. And you just have to find ways to filter them out. But the better thing could be that you can find the source of them, because likely they are not doing it only to your product, but doing it to someone else's product and someone else's product. Because again, the cost of creating the fake accounts, if you make that cost to be high enough because any sort of mechanism has a ROI, right, return on investment.

如果你把回报压得足够低，把投资门槛提得足够高，这种把戏很快就会失去吸引力，人们自然就会放弃。这正是我们现在看到亚马逊采取的策略。

If you make the return sort of low enough and the investment high enough, that game quickly lose, you know, the interest and people would just, you know, move away away from that. And that's what we're seeing, you know, what Amazon's doing as well.

作为一家3000人企业的CEO，你显然花了很多时间研究亚马逊。Anchor公司有多少人在专门研究亚马逊及其政策？

You're the CEO of a 3,000 person company. You obviously have spent a lot of time thinking about Amazon. How many people at Anchor spend time thinking about Amazon and its policies?

我们有个专门的线上销售团队，是公司唯一专注亚马逊业务的部门，全球大约100人。可以说公司3%的人力——3000人中的100人，主要工作就是研究亚马逊。

We have actually a team called online sales organization, which is our only team working on Amazon, and it's about 100 people globally. So you can say, yes, about 3% of this company, 100 people out of 3,000 people are just thinking mainly about Amazon.

我之所以问这个，是因为其他平台运营者也反映过类似的人员配置比例。

The reason I ask, that tracks with other people I talk to who run businesses on platforms.

没错。

Yep.

所以我经常与YouTube创作者交流。他们花费大量时间思考YouTube及其政策。我们也接触过Instagram网红，他们同样深陷于对Instagram的考量。而你经营着一家硬件公司。

So I talk to YouTube creators. They spend an inordinate amount of time thinking about YouTube and its policies. We talked to Instagram influencers. They spend a lot of time thinking about Instagram. You run a hardware company.

你正在通过独家合作推出英特尔芯片组。然而你和亚马逊之间的平台关系，与YouTube汽车评测频道主Doug Demuro如出一辙。这种动态你想改变吗？你有能力改变吗？还是说这就是既定现实？

You're you're running partnerships to launch Intel chipsets exclusively. And yet you have the exact same kind of platform dynamic with Amazon is Doug Demuro, who runs a car review channel on YouTube. Is that a dynamic you wanna change? Do you have leverage to change it? Is that just the way it's gonna be?

你会为此与亚马逊交涉吗？

Is that you talk to Amazon about it?

我不确定。实际上，我完全认同这种动态与YouTube或Instagram如出一辙。因为打造硬件产品需要付出更多努力——六个月、十二个月甚至十八个月，而内容创作可能相对简单。

I'm not sure. Actually, I entirely agree with that dynamic as the same as, you know, YouTube or actually Instagram. Right? Because it takes a whole lot more effort to just build a hardware product. Again, six months, twelve months, or even eighteen months, versus actually maybe just doing content.

但我们共同的认知是：产品始终是王道。我常对公司说，产品是那个'1'，其他都是后面的'0'。如果产品糟糕，其他做得再好也毫无意义。这是我坚信的理念。当你的产品真正造福客户时，与渠道、平台的关系自然就会变得良性，对吧？

But I think the similar thing that we all share would be that the product is still the king there. I always tell the company, hey, the product is the one and everything else are the zeros. So, if you get everything else right and you'd have a crappy product, so that's nothing. So, yeah, that's what I strongly believe. And then when you get good products, when you get products that truly benefit your customers, I think that relationship with the channels, with the platform becomes benevolent, Right?

形成互利共赢的关系。

Becomes mutually beneficial.

这就是你当前与亚马逊的关系吗？属于良性状态？

Is that how you see your relationship with Amazon now? It's benevolent?

是的。过去十年里，我们一直将这种关系视为善意且互利的，因为亚马逊为我们提供了直接向消费者销售的机会。另一方面，得益于这种快速反馈机制，我们能够打造更好的产品，最终也让客户受益。

Yeah. For the past ten years, we've seen this relationship as as, you know, benevolent, mutually beneficial because Amazon gives us the opportunity to just, you know, sell directly to the customers. On the other hand, because of that quick feedback loop, we're able to build better products and benefit customers as well.

有时让这种关系变得不那么善意的是，亚马逊在美国至少是出了名的会利用消费者的购物数据来推出自己的产品。你们是否遇到过这种情况——亚马逊推出了你们某款充电器或音响的Amazon Basics版本？

One of the things that sometimes makes that relationship not benevolent with Amazon is they're somewhat notorious, at least in The United States, for taking data about what shoppers are buying and then making their own products. Is that something you've experienced that Amazon has come out with an Amazon Basics version of one of your chargers or your sound bars or something like that?

是的。我认为这是所有销售渠道共有的现象。沃尔玛、Costco这些渠道都有自己的渠道品牌，这种现象已经存在几十年了。

Yeah. I think that's a story with all the channels. Right? If you look at Walmart, Costco, every channel has their channel brand. And that has been there for decades.

这不是新鲜事。我们观察到渠道品牌的市场份额存在天花板，不同品类的上限也不同。以科技品类为例，由于技术持续进步和创新，渠道品牌想要占据市场要困难得多。

It's not a new story. So, what we've observed was that the percentage of the channel brands has a ceiling. And for different categories, that ceiling was different. So, for tech categories, because it's always advancing, always innovating, Right? So it's a whole lot more difficult to make channel brands.

他们会找你们合作吗？我不认为亚马逊有一群研究氮化镓的工程师。他们会联系你们说'想打造亚马逊品牌的USB配件，由你们代工'吗？你们是否承接这类业务，还是由其他公司负责？

Is that something they come to you to do? I I don't think Amazon has a bunch of engineers thinking about gallium nitride. Do they come to you and say, hey. We wanna make a Amazon branded USB accessory and you do it for them? Is that the are you doing that kind of work, or is that a different set of companies?

我们仍在讨论这个问题，因为常规产品团队与Anchor标准产品团队是不同的。所以目前我们尚未开展这类合作。

We're still debating about that because the teams are are different, right, to be working on, like, a regular product versus a Anchor standard product. So I would say not not up to this moment yet.

我们需要再休息一下，回来后我们将讨论Anchor涉足的其他业务领域，以及不仅要创造用户体验，还要持续通过软件更新来维护产品是怎样的体验。欢迎回来，在结束前我想快速聊聊其他品类。充电器很重要——显然我们经常思考这个问题。

We need to take one more break, but when we come back, we're gonna talk about some of the other businesses that Anchor is in and what it's been like to not only create user experiences, but also create products that need to be supported with software updates. We're back. I wanna talk about the other categories here real quickly before we end. Chargers are they're important. We I think about them a lot, obviously.

我们显然经常思考USB的问题。但它们自成体系，对用户要求不高。对吧？你插上它，给手机充电，就完事了。就这么简单。

We obviously think about USB a lot. But they're in their way, they don't require a lot from the user. Right? You plug them in, you plug in your phone, you're done. That's it.

没错。你们涉及的其他品类存在用户体验问题。对吧？回音壁有按钮和交互界面，投影仪也是。你们现在有多少用户界面设计师？

Yep. The other categories you're in have user experience concerns. Right? Soundbars have buttons and interfaces, projectors. How many user interface designers do you have now?

你们现在有多少软件工程师？

How many software engineers do you have now?

我没具体统计过，但大概有十几名用户界面开发人员，可能100名左右的应用开发人员，或许更多，但至少有这个数量。所以我们很清楚软件部分，或者说应用体验现在已成为重要组成部分。比如，我们为耳机开发了名为HearID的技术，五分钟内通过播放不同频率声音的测试来获取用户反馈，从而增强特定音频频段，让音乐听起来更棒。你可以把它想象成微型音频放大器。

I haven't really counted, but I think we have like a dozen or so user interface developers, and probably a 100 ish app developers, or possibly more, yeah, but at least that number. So, we definitely realise that the software part, or the app part of experience is now a major part. For example, actually, for a headset, we developed this technology called HearID, which in five minutes, it takes you through a set of tests which plays different frequency sound and tries to test your feedback. And with that, it can just really augment a part of the audio spectrum to let you get better music. Think of it as a very miniature piece of audio amplifier.

这个功能完全依赖手机应用，但能极大提升听音体验。用户试用后都非常喜爱这个功能。所以我们正在开发更多类似功能，不再仅是硬件公司，更像是软硬件结合的公司。

That part entirely relies on a phone app, but it greatly enhances your listening experience. Our users, you know, tried this love this feature. So we're trying to develop more and more of this. So not just only a hardware company, but more like a hardware software company.

一旦开始做软件，产品生命周期成本就上升了。比如卖给我一个充电器是一次性交易，不需要软件工程师永远在应用商店里更新充电器应用。但如果卖给我有酷炫软件功能的耳机，这个应用就得为iOS 15更新。

Once you start making software, the life cycle cost of a product goes up. So you sell me a charger once. You don't have to have a software engineer updating the app for the charger in the App Store for the rest of time. You sell me a set of earbuds that have a cool software feature. That app has to get updated for iOS 15.

这个应用还得为iOS 16更新。你认为软件功能应该支持多久？你们如何管理这方面的投入？

That app has to get updated for iOS 16. How long do you think the software features should be supported for? Like, how do you manage that investment?

我认为我们最初考虑的核心始终是客户价值。如果软件部分确实能为你带来足够的价值，让你觉得有必要或感到满意，那么我相信总有办法让数字合理。以耳机产品为例，多年来Soundcore品牌耳机的价格在上涨，这不仅源于软件部分，还包括更先进的硬件、设计等多方面因素。我们最初定价约99美元，如今最贵的耳机已达149美元。如果未来推出更具创新性、搭载更优硬件和软件功能的产品，价格还可能小幅上涨。但最终，客户必须愿意买单。

Well, I think the original point we think about is still customer value. So if that software part really adds enough value for you that you feel necessary, or you feel good, then I think there's got to be a way to get numbers right. So, for the headphone products, for example, over the years you're seeing the Soundcore brand headphones, the price point's raising, not only actually from the software part, but also from more advanced hardware and design, and so on and so forth. But we started at $99 ish, and now our most expensive headset has been $149 and we're actually, again, if more innovative products come out, which carries more better hardware features and more software features as well, so that price point could go up a bit. But eventually, the customers have to be willing to pay.

对吧？如果我们提价但消费者却转身离开，那显然行不通。

Right? If we raise the price, but people just, you know, walk away, then that's not something right.

这是个故意设计成无法回答的问题，但我还是想问：在这种动态关系中，什么更重要？是软件体验还是硬件体验？

This is an intentionally impossible to answer question, but I'm gonna ask it anyway. In that dynamic, what is more important? Is it the software experience or is it the hardware experience?

我自认是个灰度思维者——非黑即白不适合我。我接受过软件教育，职业生涯始于软件领域，但过去十年一直从事硬件工作。我认为两个学科都有其魅力。有时这两个领域的工程师会互相敌视，

I always see myself as a grayscale guy. So, I'm not a zero guy or one guy, right? So, I did my education in software, had my early career in software, but now have been working on hard work for ten years. I think I see beauty in both disciplines. Sometimes, the engineers from the two disciplines hate each other, right?

或者彼此轻视，但我始终致力于将他们凝聚起来，强调'并非你或你更重要'，而是共同打造无缝体验，让用户根本无需区分软件或硬件，只需享受其益处。这就是我试图实现的平衡点。

Or look down upon each other, but I'm really trying to unite them together and say, Hey, it's not that you are more important or you are more important, right? It's like, together you guys deliver this great experience that is so smooth that customers don't really just think about, hey, this is a software experience or hardware experience, but they just, you know, they just benefit from it. So that's a point that I'm trying to, you know, to reach, to strike.

谈及优秀软件设计，我们会想到苹果、谷歌这些巨头，某种程度上也包括Facebook（尽管存在争议）。你认为你们是否已吸引到能在软件设计、执行等方面与巨头竞争的人才？

When you think about great software design, we think about the great companies. We think about Apple. We think about Google. To some extent, we think about Facebook, although lots of arguments to be made there. Do you think you've attracted the sort of talent to compete with the giants in terms of software design, execution, all those things?

我们不做大规模软件服务，没有日活十亿级的应用，这确实降低了难度。但反过来说，这也意味着我们无法像巨头那样吸引顶尖人才。

We don't do, like, mass scaled software. Right? We don't do a, you know, app that serves like a billion people each day. So that's a much easier problem. But also on the other end, actually, that dictates that we don't get as good people as these giants.

我认为'足够'可能是最贴切的词或方式，同时情况也变得越来越复杂。因此，你需要有足够胜任工作的人手，随着复杂性的增加，他们能够与挑战共同成长。这实际上是一种非常理想的状态，对吧？既不会承受过大压力，又能享受成长的过程。

I think sufficient is probably the word or the way, and also increasingly more complicated. So you have to have people that's sufficient for the job, and then as the complexity raises, they're able to grow together with the challenges. And that's actually a very happy state. Right? You don't get stressed too much and enjoy your growth.

我们观察到的另一个现象是，特别是在连接手机的软硬件解决方案领域，两大平台都在不断整合所有功能。耳机就是个典型例子——苹果将定制软件集成到操作系统中，使AirPods能够实现（据我所知）其他厂商在iOS上无法实现的功能。谷歌也推出了自家耳机。

One of the other things we see, particularly with, you know, hardware software solutions that connect to phones, both platforms are relentlessly integrating everything. Headphones is actually a great example. Right? Apple has integrated custom software into the OS to enable AirPods to do things that, as far as I know, no one else is allowed to do on iOS. Google made its own headphones.

三星也在玩同样的把戏。这种趋势将蔓延到所有产品类别。你们是否采取了任何措施来规避这种风险？

They're doing the same trick. Samsung is doing the same trick. That's gonna extend to all kinds of categories. Is that a risk that you're hedging against in any way?

欧盟是否有真正强制执行可互换标准？

Is there a European Union actually enforcing on interchangeable standard?

欧盟可以宣称它在做任何事。

The European Union can say it's doing anything.

但问题是

But whether

这些声明是否有实质意义是一回事，他们是否真正采取行动又是另一回事。我只是在想，平台这种无止境的整合趋势确实构成风险，对吧？

that means anything whether they actually do anything is one question. Whether it means anything is another. Yeah. I'm just wondering, like, that's a risk, right, that the platform will sort of relentlessly integrate. Yeah.

你甚至无需赋予它动机。这就是平台和通勤者随着时间推移的常态。它们只是逐渐整合了所有功能。你如何看待这种风险？

You don't even have to ascribe it motive. That's just what platforms and commuters do over time. They just sort of integrate every function. How do you think about that risk?

首先你得接受这一点，对吧？因为当手机制造商开始创新时，我认为很自然的是，他们从自己的设备和操作系统起步。但如果确实是有用的东西，我依然认为人类是向善的，人们能够坐下来共同商讨如何将其变成标准。

You should have to first accept it. Right? Because when phone manufacturers start to do innovation, I think it's natural that actually they, you know, they start from their own devices and their own operating systems, right? But if it's really something that's useful, I still see the humankind as a good one, right? People are able to just sit together, sit down together and really talk about how we make this to become a standard.

所以我们看到的是先创新，可能优先考虑某些方面，然后再逐步使其成为标准。这中间存在时间差，对吧？

So that that's what we've, you know, seeing as, you know, innovate first, you know, maybe pro prioritizing, and then later sort of to make them become become standard. So there's a gap. There's a time gap. Right?

你现在参与标准制定机构了吗？比如USB论坛、蓝牙标准组织之类的？

Are you in the standards bodies now? Are you in the USB forum, the the Bluetooth standards organization, all that stuff?

我们是成员单位但尚未进入决策层，不过我们确实希望能参与其中。因为我们掌握大量消费者反馈，并能快速将创意推向市场验证。我们非常希望能在这些领域做出贡献。

I think we're a member and we're not in the decision body yet, but we're we're definitely, you know, hoping to get into it. Because we we carry a lot of consumer feedbacks, and we're able to fastly take ideas to the market and prove it. So we definitely hope to be able to contribute in there.

我最近买了你们的一款Nebula胶囊投影仪，非常有趣。价格大概几百美元，体积就像个小音箱。

One of the products I recently bought was one of your Nebula capsule projectors. It's really fun. Right? It's like couple $100. It's as big as a little speaker.

内置投影功能，运行安卓系统。这应该是你们首款完整的安卓产品——你们不仅搭载了操作系统还进行了定制，接入Play商店可以安装各种应用。这看起来很新颖，但你们现在似乎有大量同类产品。开发过程顺利吗？

It's got a projector in it. It runs Android. I think that's your first full on Android product where you've brought up an operating system and customized it and you're in the Play Store and you can get various apps on it. That seems really new, but it seems like you have a lot of products in that line now. Was that easy to do?

谷歌是否已经准备好让你发布一种新产品，还是你需要说服他们允许你这样做？

Was Google just, like, ready to to let you launch a new kind of product, or was it something you had to convince them to let you do?

是的。我认为我们确实花了一些时间说服谷歌在Android TV上部署这个定制界面。但我觉得这是值得的，因为这些小型投影仪只有易拉罐大小，你可以随身携带。好处是你可以把手机放在一边，或者继续玩手机，而投影仪上的Android系统会处理所有的投影和内容流传输工作。所以，是的，我认为我们只需要为我们的设备增加这种功能，就能按应有的方式打造产品。

Yeah. I think it did take us a while to convince Google to have the Android TV, right, deployed on that and this custom interface as well. But I think that's worthwhile, because again, it's small soda can sized projectors, and you can just take them with you anywhere. The good thing is that you can just leave your phone, or just still play with your phone, but have that of Android that's on the projector doing all the projecting and the content streaming work. So, yeah, I think we we just need to add that capability to our box and being able to just build products however they should be.

我问你是因为这是你们第一款运行他人操作系统且需要维护的独立产品。从产品谱系来看，充电器完全属于一次性销售产品。没错。卖完就不用管了。是的。

Well, asked you because that's your first standalone product that runs an operating system that's owned by somebody else that you have to maintain. On the spectrum, chargers are all the way over here. Yep. Sell them once and walk away. Yep.

没错。带有可调节设置应用的蓝牙音箱处于中间位置。而卖给你们一台安卓电脑则完全属于长期维护型产品。

Yep. Bluetooth soundbars with an app that might change some settings are in the middle. Yep. And I'm selling you an Android computer is all the way at the end. Yep.

这关系到你需要与客户保持多深的关系。

In terms of how much relationship you have to have with your customer.

是的。

Yep.

当你们在制定流程文件和委员会审核时，有没有考虑过——我们将不得不为这款400美元的投影仪永久投资安卓系统更新？你们是否思考过如何在这段时间内实现盈利？这类决策通常是什么样的？

When you're doing that process document and the committees are checking in, at some point, are you like, well, we're gonna have to invest in Android updates for this $400 projector forever? And do you think about how you'd monetize it over that course of time? Like, what does that kind of decision look like?

我认为，首先，谷歌在偶尔更新Android TV方面做得非常出色。

I think, first of all, like, Google does a great job in terms of updating the Android TV once in a while.

‘偶尔做得非常出色’这个说法非常准确。

A great job once in a while is very accurate.

就像他们完成了所有艰苦的工作，而我们只是将其打包，当然要确保不会崩溃我们的用户界面，然后精简地提供给客户。这涉及一个三四十人的工程师团队。我们确实将其视为对未来的一项投资，因此我们有更复杂的产品，那种独立的操作系统级别能力是必须具备的。对于Anchor来说，我们始终支持我们的产品。所以，我们必须确保实际发布的产品是真正高质量的，对吧？

It's like they take all the hard work and we just package it, of course, to make sure it doesn't crash our UI interfaces, and then streamline it to the customers. It's about a team of thirty, forty engineers. We're really seeing it as an investment into the future, so we have products that are more complicated, that standalone operating system level capability is something you must have. And for Anchor, we always stand behind our products. So, we have to make sure the ones that are actually released is a really quality one, right?

所以，这是一项投资，然后这是一项投资。

So, that's an investment, then that's an investment.

这种决策需要一直上报到你这里吗？比如，‘嘿，我们想做一个需要五年持续软件工程投资的产品’，还是你会让他们顺其自然？

Is that the kind of decision that comes all the way up to you? Hey. We wanna make a product that's gonna require five years of ongoing, like, software engineering investment, or is that you're gonna let them see what happens?

是的。这种决策会上升到公司的最高层。我们有一个投资委员会监督所有重大投资，那些超过200万美元的项目，以及那些需要我们投入数年时间的项目。所以，是的，这些决策我们必须做出。但另一方面，我们也不仅仅把它们看作一次性的事情，或单一产品的事情。

Yeah. That's a decision that will come to the top of this company. So we have a investment board that's overseeing all the major investment, things that's above $2,000,000, as well as things that's going to cost us a few years. So, yeah, for these decisions, we have to make. But also, on the other hand, we see them not just as a one time thing, or one product thing.

因为如果你再次将公司视为一个产品，所构建的能力可以应用于不同的产品线。那是一种能力，例如，Android系统的能力是我们认为长期未来所需的一种能力。所以，当我们决定投资它时，希望不仅仅是为了这一个产品，而是可以部署到更多产品上。

Because if you look at, again, company as a product, capabilities, when it's built, could be applied towards different product lines. That's a capability, for example, the Android system capability is something that we see them as a capability that's needed for the longer term future. So, when we decide to invest in it, hopefully it's not, you know, on this single product, but it could be deployed on more products.

你们打算做手机吗？

Are you gonna make a phone?

不，不，不。我们绝对不碰那个领域。我有个比喻：如果你观察消费电子产品的所有子类别，从最大的开始数，首先是手机。每年15亿部，平均售价约300美元。

No, no, no. We'll definitely stay off that playground. Well, I have an analogy on that. So if you look at all the consumer electronics subcategories, if you count from the biggest one down, the first one you have cell phone. 1,500,000,000 of them each year, about $300 ish average selling price.

所以这是个每年5000亿美元的生意。接下来是笔记本电脑，2000亿美元的市场。笔记本和台式机。第三名很快跌到平板电脑，只有600到700亿美元。

So that's a $500,000,000,000 business each year. And the next, you have laptop, which is a $200,000,000,000 business. Laptop and PC. And the third, it quickly comes down to tablets. That's a $60 to $70 business.

然后是智能手表和无线耳机，这些大约是400亿美元左右，虽然还在增长。注意到没有？从第一名到第五名，市场规模从5000亿骤降到500亿，整整10倍差距。这就是我们所说的大品类。

And then next one, have smart watches and then wireless headsets. These are like, you know, 40 ish billion dollars and, you know, but still increasing. So have you observed that from number one to number five, you actually dropped from $500,000,000,000 to $50,000,000,000 That's a 10 times scale, just from number one to number five. Right? So, that's what we call on the big categories.

大品类屈指可数。但另一端的小品类，比如50亿美元规模的——移动电源、充电器、无线充、数据线、扩展坞、转接器——我随便就能列举六七个。这还只是极小部分，如果算上会议音箱之类的就更不用说了。

There's very few of them, a handful of them. But on the other end, if you look at the smaller categories, like let's say a $5,000,000,000 category, portable chargers, chargers, wireless chargers, cables, hubs, docking stations, I'm already counting six or seven. Yeah. And that's just a very small fraction, right? If you're counting conference speakers and other and everything.

我们统计过数百个小品类，每个规模约30到50亿美元。Anker的战略就是专注这些小品类而非大品类，因为我们发现要在这两种极端市场成功，需要完全不同的公司架构、底层机制和团队结构。以我们的团队结构，能做好小品类，何必去大品类送死。

So, we really literally counted like hundreds of small categories. That's each like $3,000,000,000 or $5,000,000,000 in size, around this range. Anchor is really trying to focus on the small categories rather than the biggest categories, because we end up realising that to do well in these two extremes, you need different company formations and different underlining mechanisms and different team structures. So, with our team structure, we can do the small categories well, and let's not go die in the big categories.

你们接下来准备在安卓生态做什么产品？

What is the next sort of thing you could do with Android?

举个例子，比如会议工作站。目前在我们的个人会议场景中，我们讨论的是一体化工作站，它集成了摄像头、麦克风、扬声器、充电功能，甚至可能还有显示屏。对吧？这就需要有一个系统作为支撑，而Android自然成为首选。

So, for example, like a conference station. Because right now, with our personal conference, we're talking about all in one stations, which, for example, have the camera, the microphone, the speaker, the charging, you know, and even maybe a screen there. Right? And for this, you have to have a system that's backing it up. So and Android will be the natural choice.

没错。Anchor接下来有什么计划？公司成立后我们应该关注哪些新动向？

Yeah. What's next for Anchor? What's the next thing we should be looking out for as we launch the company?

是的。今年我们新增了两到三个产品类别，很快你们就会看到新产品面世。比如我们已有的Anchor Work系列，这是一套性能和效率提升工具及产品。同时我们也开始研发Anchor Make系列，涉及3D打印和小型制造工具相关的产品。这是我们正在推进的两个方向。

Yeah. We added, you know, two to three new categories this year, and that, you know, soon you'll be seeing new products coming out. Like, one thing that we had was Anchor Work, which is a bunch of performance and utility enhancement tools and products. And also, we started working on Anchor Make, which is products related to three d printing and very small scale manufacturing tools. So these are the two things we've been working on.

你们已经看到了部分Anchor Work产品，而Anchor Make系列预计将在明年某个时候推出。

And you've already seen some part of the Anchor Work products, and the Anchor Make will probably coming out sometime next year.

太棒了。Steven，你给我的时间远超承诺，非常感谢。每次和你交谈都很愉快。你得尽快再来做客。

That's terrific. Well, Steven, you've given me much more time than you promised. I really appreciate it. Always great to talk to you. You're gonna you're gonna have to come back again soon.

我们似乎总有聊不完的话题。

We seem to have, you know, endless topics.

关于USB-C接口我还能再聊一小时。现在开始如何？你有时间吗？

I could do another hour on u s p USB c. Let's do it. You got time?

我得走了。是的。

I've got to run. Yeah.

好的，史蒂文。非常感谢你。

Alright, Steven. Thank you so much.

非常愉快。谢谢你，尼尔。

Such a pleasure. Thank you, Neil.

再次感谢史蒂文·杨今天抽空交谈，也感谢各位的收听。希望你们喜欢本期节目。一如既往，我很想听听大家对《解码器》的看法。你可以发邮件至decoder@theverge.com，或者直接联系我。我在Twitter上的账号是reckless。

Thanks again to Steven Yang for taking the time to talk today, and thank you for listening. I hope you enjoyed it. As always, I'd love to hear what you think of Decoder. You can email us at decoder@theverge.com hit me up directly. I'm at reckless on Twitter.

如果你喜欢《解码器》，请分享给你的朋友，并在你获取播客的地方订阅。如果你真的喜欢这个节目，请给我们留下五星好评。《解码器》是The Verge出品，属于Vox Media播客网络的一部分。本期节目由克雷顿·德西蒙、亚历山大·查尔斯·亚当斯和安德鲁·马里诺制作，由卡莉·赖特编辑。

If you like Decoder, please share it with your friends, subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. If you really like the show, leave us that five star review. Decoder is a production of the verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Today's episode was produced Creighton DeSimone, Alexander Charles Adams, and Andrew Marino. We are edited by Callie Wright.

我们的音乐由Breakmaster Cylinder制作。下次见。

Our music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. We'll see you next time.