古罗计：柯蒂斯·雅文

欢迎来到《解码大师：量表版》，我们将运用科学与计量艺术，对我们在播客中近期深入探讨并详细解码过的人物进行分析。

Welcome to Decoding the Gurus Garometer Edition, where we apply the science, the art of grammetry to a figure that we have recently covered in-depth on the podcast, done a deep decoding of.

但在这里，我们试图量化我们的观察结果。

But here, we're trying to quantify our observations.

我们通过在11个不同标准上赋予1到5的评分来实现这一点。

And we do that by assigning them values of one to five on 11 different criteria.

但在开始之前，我必须介绍一下自己，我是克里斯·卡夫纳。

But before we do that, I must introduce that I am Chris Kavner.

我某种程度上是一名人类学家。

I'm an anthropologist of sorts.

但在日本，这些都不重要。

In Japan, none of that matters.

重要的是坐在我对面的那位资深心理学家，他在业内备受尊敬。

What matters is the man across from me who is a senior psychologist, highly respected in his field.

他是澳大利亚人。

He's an Australian.

他在美国。

He's in America.

他是马修·布莱恩。

He's Matthew Bryan.

他就在那儿。

There he is.

欢迎你，马修。

Welcome, Matthew.

我在美国首都，克里斯。

I'm in the nation's capital, Chris.

华盛顿特区。

Washington DC.

你被邀请前来，穿着外套，准备好了提供咨询。

You were invited up, you have your jacket, you're ready to advise.

白宫的安全检查口出了点状况，他们似乎没有我的名字在名单上，感觉很不舒服，不过也没关系，反正今天过得还不错，只是有点疑惑。

There was some confusion at the security gates to the White House, they didn't seem to have my name on the list, it was uncomfortable, It a bit was some kind of, was like, that's alright, had a nice day anyway, wondering about.

我去了一些很棒的展览，比如史密森尼学会之类的。

I went to some excellent exhibitions, in Smithsonian's and things like that.

是的，个不错的小城。

Yeah, nice town.

南方的人更友好，得说，更随性一点，在华夫饼屋那种地方也更放松。

The people are friendlier, gotta say, down south, a bit more laid back, a little bit more relaxed in a waffle house.

我去过华盛顿特区。

I've been to Washington DC.

我知道那种感觉。

I know how that goes.

但马特，我们今天不是来听你的文化观察的。

But Matt, we're not here for your cultural observations.

这是一艘精确的船，对吧？

This is a precise ship, right?

我们来做科学，或者

We do science or

艺术或者是的。

art or yeah.

你不能在这里对美国含糊其辞。

You can't you can't waffle about America here.

我们来这里有非常明确的目的。

We are here for a very specific purpose.

我们必须对我们最近报道过的一位大师，根据古老的格拉梅特里术来量化他们的孔隙率。

We gotta take a guru that we've recently covered, and we gotta quantify their porosity according to the ancient art of grammetry.

是的。

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

我们会的。

We will.

这个人就是柯蒂斯·亚文。

And that man is Curtis Yavin.

你知道吗，克里斯，在我们节目之后，我又进一步调查了柯蒂斯·亚文。

You know, Chris, I did some more subsequent looking into Curtis Yavin after our episode.

我的意思是，我通常在节目前会做些研究，我想。

I mean, I do my research before the episode, I guess.

但之后我又做了不少额外的调查。

But I did a fair bit afterwards.

我只想说，我对他的各种观点和理念有了更多了解。

And I'll just say, and I learned a fair bit more about his ideas and views on various things.

我听到的任何东西都没有让我改变对他的严厉评价。

Nothing of what I heard caused me to want to change my relatively searing, evaluation of the guy.

我的天啊。

My god.

真是胡说八道。

What a load of nonsense.

而且，克里斯，当我看这些垃圾的时候，我突然想到了一个再贴切不过的比喻，真希望我在节目里用过——我们之前谈到过，他有一大堆杂糅在一起的想法，非常像乔丹·彼得森的风格。

And, you know, while I was watching this crap, Chris, the most perfect metaphor occurred to me, wish I'd used it on the show, which was that we talked about how he's got this melange of ideas, very Jordan Peterson style.

他从不真正回答问题。

He doesn't really answer questions.

他只是给你讲个故事，然后来个轶事。

He just gives you a story, and then there's an anecdote.

接着出现一个小人物，再是个假设情境。

And then there's a little character, then there's a hypothetical.

但这些内容完全无法连贯起来。

And none of this is hanging together.

就像有人把一堆拼图碎片全倒到桌上，它们根本拼不到一起。

It's like somebody has thrown a bunch of jigsaw pieces onto the table, none of them fit together.

这最初就是我的比喻。

That was my initial metaphor.

我认为更贴切的比喻是，当你仔细一看，会发现这些拼图碎片其实就像是早餐麦片盒里附赠的小奖品，或者是你身后那些捉弄人的小玩意儿。

I think the best metaphor is if on closer inspection you realize that those puzzle pieces are actually the kinds of, prizes you get in breakfast cereal boxes or the gotcha that are sitting behind you.

这会让这个比喻更加贴切。

That would make it even a better metaphor.

这一切都毫无关联。

None of it hangs together.

它在逻辑上并不连贯。

It's not logically coherent.

当你仔细审视那些被提出的事实和细节时，你会发现它们可笑至极。

And then when you actually look at the little facts and things that are presented, you realize that they're laughable.

好了，我们继续吧。

Anyway, let's move on.

是的。

Yeah.

对。

Yeah.

嗯，我认为这是对的。

Well, I I I think that's right.

我一直在想，你这个比喻最终想表达什么。

I was wondering where you were gonna go with that analogy.

比如，当你仔细一看，它们只是些零散的小东西

Like, when you look closer, they're little pieces

垃圾。

of crap.

布拉德。

Brad.

那些小小的、微不足道的粪便就摆在桌上。

Little tiny little turds sitting there on the table.

是的。

Yeah.

那会

That would

对。

Yeah.

那也是有可能的。

That that is also possible.

但他也被称为门丘斯·莫尔德布格。

But, he's also known as Menchus Mouldbug.

所以在他实名之前，他曾经用过那个不是法棍的化名。

So he used to go by that non baguette before he de anonymized.

所以我们现在看到他了。

So there we have him.

他是黑暗启蒙运动、新反动主义的代表人物。

He is the dark enlightenment, a neo reactionary master.

他是卡达沙拉万·亚拉万。

He is Kardasharavan Yaravan.

如果你想了解我们对他的详细看法，请收听完整的解码节目，该节目只有音频。

If you want to hear our detailed thoughts on him, please view the full decoding episode, which is audio only.

所以你得去找一个播客来听这些内容。

So that's you have to look up a podcast to hear that.

但今天，马特，让我们把他们放进语法计数器里，按照传统，我们先从银河大脑指数开始，也就是那种对一系列观点自信发声的倾向。

But today, Matt, let's put them into the grammeter, and we we, by tradition, start with galaxy brainness, tendency to voice confident opinions about a constellation of ideas.

没有哪个话题是他们无法评论的，正如我们常说的那样。

There is no topic that is out of their balliwick, as we like to say.

你觉得库尔蒂斯在银河大脑指数上能打几分？

Where would you put Curtis on Galaxy Brainness?

一分到五分？

One to five?

我会给他四分或五分。

I'd give him either a four or a five.

也许我可以给他稍微少一点满分。

Maybe I could give him a little bit less of the maximum.

但你觉得呢？

But what do you think?

令人麻木。

Numbing.

他到处游走。

He roams around.

涉及历史、政治、艺术、哲学和科学。

It's like it's history and political stuff and art and philosophy and science.

简直就是无所不包，不是吗？

Like it's it's everything, isn't it?

是的。

Yeah.

他到处游走。

He roams around.

我会给他打五分。

I'm gonna give him a five.

我会给他打五分。

I'm gonna give him a five.

是的。

Yeah.

他就在那儿，你能想象出任何他被问到却说‘我对这个不太了解’的话题吗？

There he he is there's like, is there any topic of that you can imagine him being asked about and saying, I don't know much about that?

比如，没有。

Like, no.

他没有什么不能运用自己智慧去应对的事情。

There there's nothing that he cannot put his intellect to.

那接下来我们看什么，马特？

So what do we have next, Matt?

下一个因素是什么？

What is the next factor?

我们接下来有‘崇拜性’。

We've got, cultishness.

是吗？

Yeah?

那种引导受众的方式，以及各种微妙的控制手段，比如通过赞美，甚至不一定需要是负面的。

The sort of grooming your audience and, sort of the subtle ways of enacting control in various ways, either through you know, it could be through flattery even doesn't have to be sort of negatively balanced.

但cultishness确实是个问题。

But it's a thing cultishness.

其他人也讨论过这一点。

Other people have talked about it.

你怎么看，克里斯？

What do you think, Chris?

你会说他是一个具有狂热追随者特征的人物吗？

Would you say that he's a cultish figure?

他在多大程度上做了类似教主的行为？

Does he do the things a cult leader does to any extent?

是的，我认为他确实如此，而且他强烈地推动内群体和外群体的对立，但我认为他最主要的方式是通过那些赞美，他说追随他的人，你知道，他们是层级型的人，马特。

Yeah, I think he does and he strongly encourages in group and out group dynamics, but also the major way that I see him do it is by these kind of compliments that he delivers about how the people that are following along are, you know, they're they're hierarchy people, Matt.

他们是那种不会寻求简单答案的人。

They're the kind of people that don't, you know, look for simple solutions.

他们是愿意深入思考、比律师更敢于突破常规的人。

They're the people willing to think about things, be a bit more edgy than the lawyer.

所以，他的很多内容都带有这种奉承的潜台词，暗示如果你能跟上他的节奏，欣赏他观点的激进性，那你就是那种高智商的人。

So, like, a lot of his stuff has this, like, flattering undertone to the audience that, like, if you're keeping up, if you're appreciating how radical his ideas are, that you're you're, like one of the high intellect people.

如果你觉得他只是一个普通的保守派人物，那这种看法恰恰是那些无法真正理解他思想深度的人才会有的。

If you see him as, you know, a kind of bog standard reactionary figure, that's the kind of take that somebody that doesn't really appreciate the profundity of his ideas have now.

也许因为他的性格，他在培养准社交情感方面，不如这个领域里的其他人那么擅长。

Maybe because of his character, he's, like, not as good at cultivating the parasocial attachments as some of the other people in this space.

我认为这一点是对的：他确实有点内向、书呆子气。

That's the part that I think is true that, like, he is a little bit introverted and geeky.

对吧？

Right?

很难像我们之前讨论的那些人物一样，获得同样狂热的粉丝群体。

Too much to get the same level of obsessive fan as some of the other figures that we've covered.

他不是乔丹·彼得森那种类型。

He's not a Jordan Peterson person.

对吧？

Right?

他本人并没有什么魅力。

He's not very charismatic and in in person.

但确实如此。

But yeah.

所以我会说他在这一点上得分很高，但他并不特别有天赋。

So I would say he's high on this, but he's not particularly, like, gifted

是的。

Yeah.

在某些方面不是这样。

In the in some aspects of it.

所以我给他打四分。

So I I give him four.

是的。

Yeah.

我同意这一点。

I I agree with that.

他确实很擅长奉承。

He's he definitely is the flattery thing.

我认为这可能只是因为他和观众很像。

And I think it it's probably just because he is the kind like he is like his audience.

观众就是那些心怀不满的少年男孩。

They're like, boy, teenage boys with a chip on their shoulder.

是的。

Yeah.

但我想不到其他他明显具有操纵性的方面。

But I can't think of many other ways in which he's obviously manipulative.

也许只是我没看到他的手段。

It could just be that I didn't see his tricks.

没看过他足够的表演，所以没注意到那些伎俩。

Didn't see enough of his spiel to notice the tricks.

我想我会给他打三分。

Think I'll give him a three.

是的，我

Yeah, I'm

我会本着疑罪从无的原则给他一个机会，尽管他显然不配得到。

in I'll give for the benefit of the doubt, even though he definitely doesn't deserve it.

对，克里斯。

Right, Chris.

下一个因素是反建制主义。

The next factor is anti establishmentarianism.

这不仅仅是对体制持批评态度。

This is not just being critical of the establishment.

事实上，他在每一个问题上都采取一种反叛的、反体制的立场。

It is, in fact, taking a contrarian anti establishment stance on every issue.

这些机构、体制，全都在撒谎，无时无刻。

The institutions, the establishment, they're all lying all of the time.

它们全都不可信。

None of them can be trusted.

他们在学校教你的东西，不过是掩盖现实深层本质的一层薄薄表象。

What they taught you at school, it's just a thin veneer over the deep nature of reality.

是的。

Yeah.

他在这方面做得淋漓尽致。

He does this in spades.

他在这方面做得极其到位。

He does this incredibly.

他毫无疑问在这点上是满分。

He's he's just a five on this without a doubt.

这正是他的全部套路，也是他吸引那些自以为比他聪明的不成熟男性的原因。

This is his whole shtick and why he's appealing to those immature men mainly who think that's a lot smarter than they are.

Anyway，我们还需要再多聊一聊这个吗，Chris？

Anyway, do we need to talk about that more, Chris?

我们对各自的五分满意了吗？

Are we happy with our fives?

不。

No.

我的意思是，我想说的另一点是，他喜欢把一些非常普通的反主流观点和阴谋论推理，包装得好像特别狡黠、离经叛道，值得人们深思。

I mean, only other thing I would say is that he likes to present fairly bog standard contrarianism and conspiratorial reasoning as if it's deliciously devious and a little bit out there for people to consider.

但实际上，他所相信的那些东西，在那些圈子里非常主流。

But it's it's very conventional within those spaces, the kind of things that he believes.

他只是喜欢给这些观点加点调味料。

He just likes to add flavor to it.

但确实如此。

But yeah.

所以有这一点，但这只是我在评论他是个混蛋。

So there's that, but that's just me commenting on him being a dickhead.

是的。

Yeah.

远没有他自己以为的那么黑暗和危险。

Not nearly as dark and dangerous as he would like to think he is.

不。

No.

好的。

Okay.

接下来这个，克里斯，是制造怨恨，诉说悲惨故事。

So the next one, Chris, is grievance mongering, litigating tales of woe.

我记得我们为此争论过。

I remember we ended up arguing about this.

最后我们归纳出这个的三个子方面。

Ended up with identifying three sub facets of this.

其中有

There was

哦，如果你有敌人，贪婪的

was Oh, if you have enemies greedy

个人敌人，那种总是看到很多敌人的人，有自己的怨恨故事，比如在生活中被压制之类的，但同时也把怨恨感作为你吸引力的一部分，作为你的招牌手段。

personal enemies, the sort of person that's, you know, seeing lots of enemies over it, having a personal tale of of groovance, yeah, in your life you've been held back or whatever, but also inculcating a sense of grievance as part of your appeal, part of your shtick.

你觉得这个怎么样，克里斯？

So what do you think about this one, Chris?

是的，我对他的了解不够，无法确定他是否有一份敌人名单。

Yeah, I don't know enough about him to know if he has the list of enemies.

我推测以他的性格可能会有，但我们在所讨论的内容中并没有听到这一点。

I suspect that he would from his personality, but I didn't hear that in the content that we covered.

对吧？

Right?

他确实做了那个演讲，说他看穿了别人视为理所当然的一切，而像他这样的人可能会被否定。

And he did give the presentation that like he saw through whatever everybody else was taking for standard and that people like him might be dismissed by no.

但这种说法其实已经被反建制主义涵盖了。

But that kind of is captured by the anti establishmentarianism.

但他确实向他的听众灌输了一种被欺骗的感觉，认为他们没有得到应有的选择，诸如此类。

But he definitely inculcates a feeling of grievance in his audience that they're being lied to and that they, you know, they're not being given proper options or this kind of thing.

所以，我怀疑他在这一点上的程度比我给他的评价要高，因为我打算给他宽松的评分，但确实如此。

So, yeah, I I suspect he's higher in this than I will give him because I'm gonna give him free, But Yeah.

这在一定程度上是基于我们所查看的内容，虽然我怀疑他确实如此，但我没在所看的材料中见到他这样做。

That that's partly based on just my like, the content that we've looked at and that while I suspect he does that, I don't I didn't see him do it in the things that I've looked at.

是的。

Yeah.

就我所见，他一直保持着一种极其自满且放松的态度。

Like, in what I saw of him, he's always had this incredibly smug and kind of relaxed attitude.

他不像乔丹·彼得森那样把自己激怒到狂怒的状态。

He's not like Jordan Peterson whipping himself up into a frenzy of anger.

我一直觉得他相当随和。

I've always seen him pretty laid back.

但我认为，他所推动的这种——不管你叫它什么——叙事，核心是：一切都不像表面看起来那样，一切都像某种骗局。

But I think the stuff that is the whatever you want to call it the narrative that that he is pushing is is is one in which everything is not as it seems it's all a bit of a trick.

社会中的所有这些结构，似乎都由腐败的人掌控，他们只想压制你。

All of these structures in that society are sort of run by corrupt people who are wanting to hold you down.

所以，本质上是一样的。

So it's the same.

他与很多人有很多共同点。

He shares a lot in common.

我认为，把他看作一个主要的阴谋论者是错误的。

Like, think it would be a mistake to think of him as principally a conspiracy theorist.

但这很有趣。

But it's interesting.

我认为，他受欢迎的很多原因，与人们为何会被阴谋论吸引有诸多相似之处。

I think a lot of the appeal to his chic is a lot has a lot of the same elements for of why people find conspiracy theories appealing.

是的。

Yeah.

我的意思是，他确实支持一些阴谋论。

I mean, he does he does endorse some conspiracy theories.

我们稍后会谈到这一点。

We'll get to that.

我们稍后会谈到这一点。

We'll get to that.

所以，我会给他打三分，因为他批评了其中的一个方面，但没怎么批评另外两个。

So look, I'll give him a three just because he dinged that one aspect of it, but not so much the other two.

所以

So

你同意。

you're in accord.

我同意。

I am in accord.

不，下一个问题是自我吹嘘和自恋，这得打五分。

No, the next one is self aggrandizement and narcissism, and that's five.

比如，是的。

Like, so yeah.

有些我们讨论的人，简直无话可说。

There well, there's some people that we cover words just like, what is there to say?

比如，他另一个主要特点就是极度自满，总觉得自己是个智商超群的人，对吧？

Like, he that's another of his primary characteristics is how self satisfied and how much he regards himself as like a huge IQ individual, right?

是的。

So yeah.

是的，考虑到他的想法多么微不足道和可笑，这简直太滑稽了。

Yeah, it's incredibly funny just given how trivial and silly his ideas are.

不过，好吧，我们别太客气了。

Anyway, but yeah, let's not keep it above the belt.

我们没必要针对个人。

We don't need to resort to a person.

我没这么说。

I didn't say it.

不，我在自言自语，是我自己。

No, I'm talking to myself, it's me.

但确实，我觉得他极其自负。

But yes, I think he's just incredibly vain.

所以，自负这一项给五分。

So five for self aggrandizement.

克里斯，下一个叫卡桑德拉综合症，就是你预示着即将来临的灾难，你是那个能看清局势的人。

Chris, the next one is Cassandra complex, where you're warning of the impending doom, you're the one that can see what's going on.

而这正是你对人们有吸引力的一部分。

And this is part of your appeal to people.

是的，这里有紧急情况，需要采取行动。

Yeah, there's an emergency, there's a call to action.

柯蒂斯·亚冯有没有这种情况？

Has Curtis Yavon got that going on?

每当提到这个类别时，都要记住，我们曾经把它作为一个类别，然后乔丹·彼得森说，我就像是一个卡桑德拉。

Whenever this category comes up, always remember that we had it as a category and then Jordan Peterson was like, I'm like a Cassandra.

就是这样。

That's what it's like.

是的。

Yeah.

他们会觉得，这样太简单了。

They're like, that's making it too easy.

你说得对。

You're right.

在他那种情况下，卡桑德拉注定不被听信，但事实上人们却听我的。

And in his case, was like, but Cassandra was doomed not to be listened to, but actually people listen me.

但我

But I'm

人们仍然听

still people listen

听卡桑德拉的人会避免她所遭遇的任何问题。

to Cassandra will avoid any of the the issues that she had to deal with.

所以是的。

So yeah.

就像

Like

卡桑德拉，但更出色。

Cassandra, but better.

是的。

Yeah.

对。

Yeah.

我觉得科德什·阿尔文有点像那样。

And I I feel Kodesh Arvin is a little bit like that.

所以，他又很激动。

So, again, he is heated.

他得到了JD·万斯、彼得·蒂尔以及右翼圈内有影响力人物的高度评价。

He is rated highly by JD Vance, by Peter Thiel, by folks that are influential within the right wing.

所以他没有遭受卡桑德拉那种不被重视的诅咒，但他确实自视为一位先知，能提前洞察趋势之类的事情。

So he doesn't suffer from the curse of Cassandra to not be heated, but he definitely views himself as like a visionary ahead of the curve, spotting where things are going and that kind of thing.

所以，我仍然认为他还没到最顶尖的位置。

So I I still would say he's not at the tippy top.

他还没达到迈克尔·奥法隆的水平，对。

He's not at the Michael O'Fallon level Yeah.

就那样。

Of that.

所以我给他打四分，但他确实排在前列。

So I'm gonna give him four, but he's he's definitely up there.

是的。

Yeah.

对。

Yeah.

好。

Yeah.

我的意思是，我不确定。

I I mean, I don't know.

他总是显得很满足。

He always seems so complacent.

他描述了这么多阴谋论、替代历史和这些相当荒谬的政治观点，以及一套完全不同的历史、哲学和政治理解，但他对此却显得相当淡然。

He's describing all these conspiracies and these alternative histories and these quite ridiculous political views and this this whole different alternative understanding of history and philosophy and politics, but he seems pretty laid back about it.

你知道吧？

You know?

嗯，这是真的。

Well, is true.

他其实并不像那样，是的。

He he isn't, like yeah.

再说一遍，他对此并不慌张。

Again, he's not, like, panicking about it.

他似乎非常自信，认为他的哲学最终会取胜。

He seems to be quite confident that basically his philosophy will win out.

但即便如此，有时他看起来并不真的在乎它是否取胜，或者社会是否崩溃。

But even then, at times it's like he seems to not really care if it doesn't win and, like, society is destroyed.

他只是喜欢知道自己比别人更懂这些事情。

Like, he just likes to know that he understands these things better than other people.

所以，确实有一部分是这样。

So, yeah, there is one bit.

因为这个原因，我要把他降到3.5分。

I'm gonna knock him down to 3.5 because of that.

是的。

Yeah.

因为他简直就像是完美的沙发评论员。

Because he's he's almost like the perfect armchair commentator.

你明白我的意思吗？

You know what I mean?

他对每件事都有自己的看法，清楚知道什么是正确的做法，比如支持君主制之类的，但他其实并不真正在意如何去实现这些。

He's got an opinion on everything and he's got you know, knows exactly what is the right thing to do, having a having a monarchy and things like that, but doesn't isn't really fussed about, you know, making it happen.

所以我会给他打两分，因为他说的大部分内容都相当激进，但当前局势下也有一些其他同样激进的改变。

So I'm gonna give him but, you know, I mean, I'll give him a two just because most of the stuff he's talking about is pretty radical, but there's other things that are pretty radical changed in the current situation.

接下来是革命理论。

Next is revolutionary theories.

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