我是如何将业务规模从七位数扩大到八位数的

朋友们，欢迎回到《深度探索》播客节目。能在这里与企业家、创作者、作家及其他鼓舞人心的人物对话，我深感荣幸。我们将探寻他们成功的轨迹，学习他们用于构建理想生活的策略与工具。本期视频我们将回顾往期节目，精选几位嘉宾关于企业规模扩张的最佳建议。话不多说，我们开始吧。

Friends. Welcome back to deep dive, the podcast where it's my immense pleasure to sit down with entrepreneurs, creators, authors, and other inspiring people. We find out how they got to where they are and the strategies and tools we can learn from them to help build a life that we love. In this video, we're looking back at previous episodes where I look at the best advice on scaling a business from some of our previous guests. So without further ado, here we are.

我在PayPal任职后期的一个深刻观察是——当我回顾那段经历时发现，公司90%的增长其实只来源于五件事。

Of the observations I had shortly after my time at PayPal was that if you first, I looked back at my time at PayPal and I realized, like, 90% of all of our growth came from, like, five things.

等等，怎么回事？

Oh, wait. How?

比如在我加入前，他们就已经入驻eBay平台。当eBay卖家开始使用PayPal后，团队编写了自动竞价机器人伪装买家，询问卖家是否接受PayPal支付——卖家们通常都会同意。就这样eBay成了早期增长引擎。接着我们联系网站开发者，因为他们是电商系统的实施者。后来我们发现，很多电商网站都建立在类似早期Shopify这样的平台上。

So, like, I mean, early on, before I got there, they got onto eBay. And eBay started sellers started using it, and then they wrote a bot to start bidding on eBay items and pretending to be a buyer and asking if they would accept PayPal, the sellers were like, Oh, yeah, sure. And so eBay was a huge early growth engine. Then reaching out to web developers, because that's the people who were implementing e commerce. And then we figured out that about the time I got there, they figured out that a lot of e commerce sites just get built on a platform, like the early versions of Shopify type businesses.

于是我们与所有购物车系统和主机服务商达成预集成合作。当然还有国际扩张等少量其他举措，但核心增长点其实很少。

So we reached out to all the shopping carts and hosting companies and got pre integrated with all of those. And there were, you know, a few more things, international expansion and a few others, but really not many.

明白了。那你觉得团队尝试了多少种增长方式，最终才筛选出这五种有效策略？

Okay. And what's your sense of how many things the team tried to grow, of which five worked?

这正是关键所在。他们绝非只尝试了六件事。我离职时公司已有24000名员工，年支出50亿美元。他们测试了数百种方案，推出数十款产品，在无效营销活动上浪费了大量资金——但这些都无关紧要，因为当时公司就像印钞机一样盈利。

Right. So that's the rub, right? They didn't just do six things. When I left, they had 24,000 employees, they were spending $5,000,000,000 a year on stuff. So they tried hundreds of things and and launched dozens of products and wasted money on campaigns that didn't work and it didn't matter because they were printing money.

但如果你是一家小初创公司，银行里只有12个月的运营资金和100万美元，你就没有那种奢侈。要想成功，你必须弄清楚，如果你假设90%的增长将来自你所做事情的10%，那么你必须尽快找到那10%。而这正是我们帮助初创公司做的事情。

But if you're a little startup and you've got twelve months of runway and a million bucks in the bank, you don't have that luxury. So in order to be successful, you've got to figure out if you assume that 90% of your growth's gonna come from 10% of the stuff you do, you've gotta find that 10% as quickly as possible. And that's what we help startups do.

哦，90%的增长。所以这就像是二八原则，只是比那还要极端。

Oh, 90% of your growth. So this is like the eighty twenty principle, just like even more extreme than that.

是的。

Yeah.

在业务增长方面，你还见过哪些体现这个‘九一原则’的实际案例？

What other examples have you seen of this ninety ten principle in action when it comes to, like, growing growing businesses?

如果你读过那些优秀的初创公司案例研究，你会发现它们都有类似之处。对Dropbox来说，是肖恩·埃利斯帮他们开发的那种病毒式产品引导的推荐循环。Canva则创建了大约75万个着陆页，针对诸如获奖证书模板、生日贺卡模板、社交媒体帖子设计等搜索关键词。人们搜索这些内容就会找到Canva，这是第一部分。第二部分是他们拥有极其优化的自助式入门体验。

I mean, if you read the great startup case studies, you'll find something like this in all of them. For Dropbox, it was this kind of viral product led referral loop that Sean Ellis helped them develop. Canva, they started they have about 750,000 landing pages out there for search terms like award certificate template and, you know, birthday card template and all these things, social media post design, whatever. And so people Google this stuff, they get to Canva, so that's part one. And then part two is they have an incredibly optimized self serve onboarding experience.

所以即使完全没有Photoshop经验，你也可以立即上手并取得成功。这些都是几个例子。但如果你研究HubSpot或其他优秀初创公司，也会发现类似情况。

So you can just get in the tool with no Photoshop experience or anything and be successful right away. So, you know, those are a couple examples. But, again, you know, if you study HubSpot or any of these great startups, you'll find things like this.

好的，让我从宏观角度理解一下。我最近才了解到增长是企业中的一个部门。几年前当我第一次开始阅读商业书籍时，我才意识到销售和营销的存在。现在我们在考虑自己的业务时也在想，好吧。

Okay. So just sort of zooming out of it. So I have only recently learned that the that, like, growth is a department in a business. I guess, you know, a few years ago when I started reading reading business books for the first time, I realized that sales and marketing were a thing. And I guess now that we're thinking about our business, we're thinking, okay.

我们基本上为每条主要产品线都提前规划了增长路径，这个人的职责就是努力提升该产品线的收入。我这么想着，接下来他们就会说：'好吧，假设目标是把我们的YouTuber学院从年收入300万做到1000万。这时候这个人就要想清楚，我们有哪些100种可能采取的行动方案？'

We kind of went ahead of growth for each of our major product lines, and that person's role will be to try and grow the revenue of that particular product line. And I guess thinking out loud, downstream of that, they're like, okay. Let's say the goal is to grow our YouTuber Academy from 3,000,000 a year to 10,000,000 a year. At that point, I guess this person figures out, okay. What is the menu of 100 possible things we could do?

然后他们需要找出真正能实现目标的三四个关键措施？大致是这个思路对吧？

And then they figure out what's the three or four things that will actually do that? Is is that the rough idea?

这里面有几个问题。一个是增长职能在组织中的定位，另一个是...

So there's a few questions in there. You know, one is how does growth sit in the organization, and then two is kind of

对，我们先说第一个。增长职能在组织中的定位是什么？它与销售和营销有什么区别？还有...

Yeah. So let's take the first one. Where does growth sit in the organization? How is it different to sales and marketing? And what's thing?

这确实很复杂。对于大多数早期初创公司，我的建议是：除非有充分理由，否则创始人应该兼任增长负责人。因为初创公司只有一个核心任务——快速成长。要有效推动增长，首先必须全面了解业务，从董事会、现金流到客户，从产品细节到销售营销获客的每个环节。

It's really tricky. With most early stage startups, my advice is unless you've had a very good reason otherwise, your founder is your head of growth. Because a startup has one job. You know, a startup is a company that grows fast, that's built to grow fast. And to do growth effectively, first of all, you need to really understand the business every aspect from, you know, the board and the cash flow all the way through to the customers, every aspect of the product, every aspect of sales and marketing customer acquisition.

通常只有创始人能做到这点。同时还需要能调动所有这些资源。同样，公司里唯一能指挥工程师做这个、让营销人员做那个、并告诉财务人员'不，我们要把钱花在这里'的人就是创始人。所以把增长设为一个部门很别扭，因为它跨越太多职能。即便在大公司，这也会造成问题。

The one person who can do that typically is the founder. You also need to be able to pull any and all of those levers. And again, the one person in your organization who can tell an engineer to do one thing and tell a marketer to do another thing and tell the finance person, no, we're going to spend money on this, is the founder. So it's a weird thing to put in a department because it's so cross functional. And even in larger orgs, that creates a problem.

就像我在PayPal组建团队时，第二重要的考量始终是：这个人能否与他人良好协作？能否建立关系？能否让其他部门的人主动配合完成上级没布置但对公司整体有利的工作？

And like when I was at PayPal and building my team, the number two thing I was always thinking about was how well is this person gonna play with others? Can they build relationships? Can they get people in other departments to do things that their boss didn't tell them to do to help the greater good of the business?

好的。那么从这个意义上说，销售和营销是增长的一个子集吗？

Okay. So in that sense, sales and marketing are a subset of growth?

它们显然是其中重要的一部分。没错，客户获取。但取决于你的关键杠杆是什么，很多增长可能由产品驱动，也可能由各种因素驱动——比如你知道Wise这家公司吗？

They're they're certainly a big piece of it, obviously. Yeah. Customer acquisition. But depending on your big levers and what they are, a lot of it could be driven by product. It could be driven by all sorts of things like let's take do you know the company Wise?

对，伦敦的汇款公司。任何想与金融科技公司合作的人，都必须经过KYC流程（了解你的客户），这意味着Wise在法律上需要验证一些文件、资金来源、身份信息，确认你不是诈骗犯等等。对大多数公司来说这纯粹是件麻烦事，是不得不做的流程。但如果你对合规主管说：听着，你的职责不是... 如果你雇了合规主管，他们自然会想做好工作，确保100%合规。

Yeah. Here in London, money remittances company. So anyone who wants to work with a fintech company, they have to go through this process called KYC, know your customer, which means that Wise is legally required to verify some documents, source of funds, who you are, you're not a fraudster, whatever. So for most companies that's just a giant pain and it's this thing you've got to do. But if you go to your head of compliance and you say, listen, your job isn't know, if you hire a head of compliance, they're going to want to do a good job and be a 100% compliant.

但如果你对他们说：听着，这不是你的工作重点。你的职责是在合规前提下，让尽可能多的周活跃用户或资金流经我们的平台——他们就会以不同方式看待工作。Wise的做法是优化了这个流程，花大量时间优化用户体验，使其几乎无感，帮助用户快速上手。从这个角度看，他们的合规职能成了增长引擎的一部分。另一个奇特例子是Spotify。

And if you go to them and say, listen, that's not your job. Your job is to get as many weekly active users or as much money going through our platform as possible while remaining compliant, they're going to think about their job differently. So what Wise did was they smoothed out that process in a way and just really spent a lot of time on optimizing the user journey just to make that really painless and help people get up and running quickly. So in that sense, their compliance function became a component of their growth engine. Or another weird example is Spotify.

要知道，当年不需要天才也能看出人们更愿意听流媒体音乐，而不是买整张专辑只听其中一首歌。问题是美国唱片公司不愿接受这种模式。所以他们从欧洲起步，选择法律更宽松的国家，积累足够势头、用户基数、资金和律师团队后，才进军美国市场。有段时间他们的增长团队其实就是律师团队。

So, you know, it was it didn't take a genius to figure out that people would rather listen to streaming music than like buy albums and only listen to one song on it. Right? The problem was the record labels in The US didn't want that to happen. So they started in Europe and they went into countries that had more favorable laws, eventually got enough momentum, enough of an audience, enough money, and enough lawyers that they could then move into The US. And in that sense for a while their growth team were their lawyers.

我举的都是极端案例，但我想说的是增长可能来自组织的任何环节。你需要从第一性原理出发，思考业务如何增长，然后调动任何需要的组织模块来实现它。

So it could be I mean I'm choosing extreme examples, but my point is it could be anywhere in the organization. So you need to sort of figure out from first principles how does your business grow and then align whatever organizational pieces are required to make that happen.

酷。明白了。

Sick. Okay.

这太有趣了。好吧，我被说服了。那么'增长杠杆'是什么意思？为什么用这个标题？

That's super interesting. Alright. I'm sold. So then what does growth levers mean? And why is that the title

这是本美国书，所以他们用'杠杆'这个词。杠杆。只是为了

of And the it's an American book, so they're levers. Levers. Just for

记录一下。是的。

the record. Yeah.

你说出来听起来好多了。总之，杠杆。这些杠杆或者说手段，就是关键工作。这些是你需要识别出的、能对你业务增长产生最大影响的行动。

Now it sounds so much better when you say it. Anyways Levers. Levers. So these levers are or levers or whatever they are, this is the work. These are the things, the actions that will have the biggest impact on the growth of your business that you need to identify.

当然。好的。

Sure. Okay.

那我们该怎么做呢？

So how do we do that?

具体怎么做呢？是的，这个过程有四个步骤。第一步（为什么用'杠杆'这个词而不是其他说法），这个流程有四个步骤。第一件事（我想我们今天就要做），就是绘制你的增长模型——这是一个数学表达式，展示你的业务如何获取客户、取悦客户、互动客户、留存客户并实现盈利。

So how do you do that? Yeah. There's four steps to the process. The first step and why is it levers Lever is in process and not levers in anyway, there's four steps to this process. The first thing, which I think we're going to do today, is you sort of map your growth model, which is a mathematical representation of how your your business acquires and delights and engages and retains and monetizes customers.

好的。

Okay.

一旦你获取了一些数据，就可以通过数学方法推导出哪些是最高杠杆作用的点。

And once you've got some data in there, you can sort of mathematically derive where are the points of highest leverage.

好的。

Okay.

第二步是你要真正理解客户的旅程，这与你的产品毫无关系。如果你是个初创公司，没人会在早上醒来就寻找你的产品。通常甚至没人会在早上醒来就寻找你这类产品。但显然你能帮助这些人，只要他们知道你的存在。所以你得弄清楚他们当时想做什么？

Step two is you need to really understand your customer's journey, which has nothing at all to do with your product. Nobody if you're a startup, nobody woke up in the morning looking for your product. Often nobody even woke up in the morning looking for your category. But clearly you could help these people if only they knew you existed. So you've got to figure out what were they trying to do?

他们认为自己在寻找什么？他们在哪里寻找？你知道他们会有什么问题吗？你如何能出现在那里并看起来像他们要找的东西？

What do they think they were looking for? Where were they looking for it? And you know, what questions would they have? And how can you sort of turn up there and look like that thing?

好的。

Okay.

所以我们研究客户旅程。是的。实际上，这方面有个很酷的例子。

So we study the customer journey. Yep. Actually, have a really cool example of that.

哦，是的。

Oh, yeah.

在来这里的路上，我就像隔壁的缪斯一样走着，我去看了看，你知道的，相同的门牌号，结果发现那不是你家，但门铃上贴着一张写着'24小时紧急开锁'的贴纸。我拍了张照片，然后意识到，你看，这个锁匠可以在伦敦任何地方打广告，但当我突然意识到需要锁匠时，我所在的位置正是被锁在公寓门外的地方。对吧？所以我就想，好吧，这就是增长黑客的完美例子，因为你弄清楚了当你突然需要某样东西时会寻找什么、身处何处，然后就直接出现在那里，就像那样东西一样。

So on the way here, I was walking in like the next muse over, I went and looked at, you know, the same house number and I figured out it wasn't your house, but the doorbell had a sticker on it and it said twenty four hour emergency locksmith. And I took a picture of it and I figured out, you know, this locksmith could advertise anywhere in London, but the place I'm going to be when I suddenly realize I need a locksmith is right here locked out of my flat. Right? And so I was like, okay, that's a perfect example of growth hacking because you figured out what are you going to be looking for and where are you going to be when you suddenly realize you need it and just turn up there and look like that thing.

没错。因为没人早上醒来会想着'我需要个锁匠'。他们是走到家门口才意识到'我需要个锁匠'。如果那人的号码就在那儿，就会想'哦，我不妨打这个电话'。

Yeah. Because no one wakes up in the morning thinking I need a locksmith. They rock up at their door realizing I need a locksmith. And if the guy's number's there, it's like, oh, I might as well call that number.

如果你昨天听了个由锁匠赞助的播客，你根本不会记得这事。

And if you heard a podcast and as locksmith sponsored it yesterday, you're not gonna remember that.

是啊。

Yeah.

所以第二步是绘制客户旅程图。我们使用一种叫做'待完成工作访谈'的技术。第三步是你会有很多想法，因此你需要先通过查看增长模型来筛选这些想法，问：哪些会产生最大影响？哪些聚焦于我们的限速步骤，能对业务产生最大影响？即便如此，你仍会有更多想法，而且其中大部分都很糟糕。

So step two is to map your customer journey. We use a technique called jobs to be done interviews. Step three then is you're going to have lots of ideas, and so you're going to want to filter down the ideas first by looking at your growth model and saying, of these will have the biggest impact? Which of these are focused on our rate limiting step where we can have the biggest impact on the business? And then you're still going to have more ideas and most of them are going to be bad.

所以接下来你要做的就是快速实验。第三步是尽可能快地设计和运行增长实验。这很棘手，因为你将有很多难以实现的想法。比如'我要出版一本书'。

So the next thing you've to do is experiment quickly. So step three is to design and run growth experiments as quickly as possible. Nice. And that's tricky because a lot of the ideas you're going to have are hard. I'm going to publish a book.

这需要很长时间，对吧？我打算随便选这个或那个来处理。这需要很多钱。我要开发个产品。

That takes a long time. Right? I'm going to do with this or that, whatever. It takes a lot of money. I'm going to build some product.

所有这些事情都很困难。你得想办法在一两周内测试它们。

All those things are hard. And you've got to find a way to test them in like a week or two.

哦，好的。

Oh, okay.

所以你的做法是审视这个想法，然后说：所有这些动态组成部分中，哪些是风险假设？如果你要出版一本书，假设你只是很想写书，但可能希望这本书能为你的业务增值。

So the way you'll do that is you'll look at this idea and you'll say, all the things the moving parts of this, what are the risky assumptions here? What are the risky assumptions? So if you're gonna publish a book and suppose maybe you just really wanted to write a book, but maybe hoping the book's going be accretive to your business.

是啊。以我的情况为例，我们销售一个生产力社区课程，我会想：太好了。让我写一本关于生产力的书，这会花我三年半时间，因为希望读者看完书后会报名我的课程。

Yeah. So in my in my case, we sell a productivity community course thing, and I'll think, great. Let me publish a book about productivity, which will take me three and a half years, because hopefully, will read the book, and then they'll sign up to my course.

好的。

Okay.

好主意。

Great idea.

对吧？那么这里有哪些风险假设呢？假设阿里能较快地写完一本书，假设这不会分散他经营业务的精力，假设人们真的会想买这本书并且喜欢它，还假设喜欢这本书的人会接着报名参加你的课程。

Right? So what are the risky assumptions here? That Ali can write a book reasonably quickly, that it won't distract him from running his business, that people will actually want to buy the book, and people will like the book, and that people who like the book will then sign up and take your course.

是啊是啊。这些全都是相当冒险的假设。

Yeah. Yeah. All of these are quite risky assumptions.

好的。这里面有很多风险假设。你没法——验证所有这些假设的唯一方法就是写本书，但你能不能单独挑其中一个假设，找到验证它的方法？比如能不能在一周内搞清楚写书到底有多难？或者人们是否会喜欢某个书名创意或主题方向？又或者买过书的人——比如买过别人书的人——是否会继续购买课程？

Okay. A lot of risky assumptions in there. You can't the only way to test them all would be to write a book, but you could you isolate one of those assumptions and find a way to test it? Could you find a way to figure out in a week how hard writing a book is Or whether people would like a particular book title idea or a topic idea? Or whether people who bought a book would then go someone else's book maybe would go on and buy a course.

没错。如果让我对这个例子进行头脑风暴，我会想：我认识的人里有谁既出过书又开过课？以我的立场，可以直接发邮件问他们：'嘿，有个小问题，你们的书对课程销量起到了多大作用？'——刚好我认识几个这样做的朋友。

Yeah. So if I were thinking out loud with this example, I would be thinking, who do I know who has both a book and a course? And in my position, I can just email them and be like, hey, quick question. To what extent did the book contribute to your course sales? I so I happen to know a handful of people who do this.

其中有几个人说基本没效果，因为他们已经有YouTube频道了；另一个人则说效果惊人，因为他们当时没有YouTube频道。你看，和我聊过的四个符合这种情况的人，基本就分成这两类。

Some of whom some of them have have said it basically did nothing because they already had a YouTube channel, and the other one said it was massive because they didn't have a YouTube channel. Alright. Those are like the two categories of, like, four people that I've spoken to who for whom this this this scenario applies.

很好。那么在一周内，你们已经通过实验降低了风险，或者排除了糟糕的设想。对于每个最令你兴奋的实验方案，都要找出最快捷的验证方法——这就是第三步。

Okay. Great. So you've now, in a week, de risked or, ruled out a bad idea or de risked an assumption. For each of your experiments that you're most excited about, you figure out what's the quickest way we can test this. That's step three.

当然我们随时可以回头讨论这些。第四步是思维模式的转变。事实证明，要想快速发展初创企业，你需要的思维方式几乎与在学业或普通职场中取得成功的思维完全相反。

And we can come back to any of these, obviously. Then step four is a mindset shift. So it turns out that to grow a startup quickly, you pretty much have to have the exact opposite mindset that it would take to be successful in school or successful in a normal job.

哦，多告诉我一些。

Oh, tell me more.

正如你所想象的，人们在这方面会遇到困难。那你该怎么办呢？你在学校是个好学生。在学校里如何取得成功？你要非常快速、非常彻底地学习所有东西，记住它们，并且在应用时不犯任何错误。

And as you can imagine, people have trouble with this. So what do you do? You're a good student in school. How do you succeed in school? You learn all the things really quickly, really thoroughly, and you remember them, and you apply them without making any mistakes.

假设你得到了一份咨询师、银行家、工程师或其他任何工作。那么在公司里如何获得晋升？你不仅要完成他们要求的所有任务，还要多做几件事。你要做得非常非常好，而且不犯任何错误。明白了吗？

Suppose you get a job as a consultant or a banker or an engineer or whatever. So how do you get promoted in a company? You do all the things they ask you to do plus a few more things. You do them really, really well and you don't make any mistakes. Okay.

现在你进入一家初创公司，形势对你不利。你无法完成所有你认为应该做的事情。你从未做过这些，所以肯定会犯错，而且你需要快速行动，这意味着你无法面面俱到，必须犯错。而这些错误的价值在于，每一个错误都会带来一点学习，让你更接近目标。

So now you come into a startup and the deck is stacked against you. You can't do all the things that you know you should do. You've never done this before, so you're absolutely going to make mistakes and you need to move quickly, which means you can't do all the things and you've got to make mistakes. And the value is those mistakes because each of those mistakes makes a little brings a little bit of learning and gets you actually closer to your goal.

理论上讲，前提是你从错误中学习。前提是你从经验中学习。是的，是的。但我觉得我们在这方面做得不太好，因为我们经常做了事情...

In theory, provided you learn from the mistake. Provided you learn from the experience. Yeah. Yeah. But I think it's something we've been quite bad at in that we've run we've often done things.

然后大概两年后才会想起来，哦，对，我们做过那件事。而且我们真的应该记下从中学到的东西，因为我们又犯了同样的错误。

And then only like two years later, we'll remember, oh, yeah, we did that thing. And we yeah, we really should have written down what we learned from that because we've just made that mistake again.

实际上，实验过程的一部分就是记录你的实验

Actually, was part of the experiment process is document your experiments

哦，对。

Oh, right.

记录你的学习心得。但心态问题更糟糕，因为害怕犯错、担心会得低分或被解雇的人不会谈论这些错误。这样你就无法从中学习。是的。然后别人又会重蹈覆辙。

Document your learnings. But it's even worse with the mindset piece because someone who is afraid to make mistakes and thinks they're going to get you know a bad grade or fired or something isn't going to talk about them. And then you're not going to learn from them. Yep. And then someone else is going to go make that mistake again.

我一直很钦佩苹果公司，因为我认为大多数人没有意识到，苹果在玩一个比任何科技公司都更困难的游戏。比如salesforce.com发布了一些软件，哎呀，有个bug。有人通宵加班，然后推送更新。

I always admired Apple because I don't think most people realize this, but Apple is playing a much harder game than any other company in tech. So salesforce.com pushes out some software. Oops. There's a bug. Someone pulls an all nighter, and they push an update.

第二天早上，一切恢复正常。而苹果发货的是硬件。一旦那些iPhone离开工厂，比如1000万台进入商店，就无法修复了。你得让所有人更新iOS。一切都必须完美运行。

The next morning, everything's fine. Apple shipping hardware. Once those iPhones leave the factory and, you know, 10,000,000 of them or whatever and go into stores, there's no fixing them. You know, you'd have to get everyone to update their iOS. Everything has to work perfectly.

这些设备极其复杂。他们同时做软件和硬件。软硬件必须协同工作，时间点必须完美把控。所以他们的收入预测会说：我们将在12月10日发货，在财年结束前有21天来赚钱。

They're incredibly complicated devices. They do software and hardware. The software and hardware have to work together, and the timing has to be perfect. So their revenue forecast, they'll say, okay, we're going to ship on December 10. We have 21 before the end of the fiscal year to make our money.

我们每天通过iPhone销售赚1亿美元。如果晚发货一天，我们就会少赚1亿美元，对吧？必须完美无缺，而他们每次都做到了。乔布斯在世时，他们推出的几乎每款产品都大获成功，这与其他公司形成鲜明对比。

We'll make $100,000,000 in iPhone sales per day. If we ship a day late, we miss our earnings number by $100,000,000 Right? Like it has to be perfect and they do it every time. And when Steve Jobs was alive, almost every product they launched was successful, which is the complete opposite of every other company. Yeah.

我一直在想，他们是怎么做到的？后来我和PayPal一位曾为乔布斯工作过的同事艾伦·奥利弗共事。有天我把他拉到一边问：苹果是怎么做到的？他说：马特，这很简单。乔布斯年初就会宣布：今年是iPhone二代之年。

And I was always wondering, how do they do that? And so I worked with a guy at PayPal named Alan Olivot who used to work for Steve. And I pulled him aside one day and I said, how does Apple do it? And he said, Matt, it's so simple. He said, Steve stands up at the beginning of the year and he said, this year is about version two of the iPhone.

今年我们要打造一款MP3播放器，能装下千首歌曲，这就是当年的目标。他会站起来说，就这一件事，而史蒂夫可不是个有耐心的好人。你知道如果你负责这件事就是你的工作，如果做其他事就会被解雇。就这么简单。每个早上来上班的人，如果你是采购部的，就负责为新iPhone采购零件。

This year we're going to make an m p three player, a thousand songs in your pocket, whatever the thing for the year was. He'd stand up, there's one thing, and Steve was not a nice patient man. And you knew if you that one thing was your job, and if you were doing anything else, you were going to get fired. And it was that simple. And everyone who came in in the morning, you know, and if you're in procurement, you're procuring parts for the new iPhone.

每个人都清楚自己要做什么，因为目标如此明确。这是一家拥有3万名员工、370亿美元营收的公司。这种专注变得至关重要。所以在我们推进过程中，我会不断要求你们精简、整合和简化。

Everyone knew exactly what they had to do because it was so simple. And that's a company that had 30,000 people and $37,000,000,000 in revenue. And that focus just becomes so critical. And so that's why as we're going, I'm going to keep asking you to peel things back, consolidate and simplify.

全部

All

好的，那么回到北极星指标。我认为如何衡量可能比较困难，但可以是改变的生命数量，或者真实粉丝数量等能反映宗旨的指标。我在想'改变生命'更像是个离散事件，但感觉你们的客户更像是始终处于某种旅程中。

right. So back to the North Star then. I think how you measure it might be hard, but it could either be something about number of lives changed or, you know, number of true fans or something that reflects the purpose. I guess one thing to think about is life changing is kind of a discrete event. But I get the sense that your customers are kind of always on a journey.

没错。说得好，这个观点非常到位。

Yeah. Good point. That's a very good point.

所以无论最终如何命名，我喜欢设定一个与使命相关的指标，比如你们帮助多少人实现了某种形式的目标。具体如何衡量，我不想陷入细节，比如推特上什么行为代表真粉丝，毕竟你有500万粉丝但并非每个视频都有500万观看。所以需要找出这些粉丝、邮件订阅者及各平台听众中的真粉丝比例。最好能设计一些代理指标，向团队隐藏这些复杂性。

So whatever you end up naming it, I like the idea of having something on mission, it's the number of people that you're helping achieve their goals in some form. How you measure it, and you know, I don't want to get into all the weeds of, well, you know, what behavior on Twitter indicates they're a true fan but versus just you know you've got over 5,000,000 followers, but every video you put up doesn't get 5,000,000 views. So there's some subset of those followers and those email subscribers and whatever other platforms you're on, podcasts, who are true fans. And there's some who aren't. And it would be helpful to come up with some proxy metrics that you can hide all this complexity from the team.

你和安格斯可以制定一些代理指标，比如观看量与订阅量的比例，就能大致知道真粉丝占比。这样还能跨平台去重统计。

But you and Angus have some proxy metrics so you'll sort of know this is roughly the ratio of, you know, for how many views we get, how many subscribers we get. This is how many of those are true fans. And you can sort of de dupe across platforms.

但你们能在某种程度上跨平台操作吗？

But you can sort of what across platforms?

你可以用估算来跨平台去重。有人做了去重处理。

You can sort of use estimates to de dupe across platforms. Someone deduplicate.

哦，好的。明白了。对。不错。

Oh, okay. Right. Yep. Cool.

因为有些人会同时喜欢你的播客和频道，而有些人只会通过播客或频道关注。是的。但你仍然能得到一个方向性准确的数字。

Because some people are gonna like your podcast and your channel, and some people are gonna be only podcast and only channel. Yeah. But you'll still get a directionally accurate number.

我感觉自己尝试过很多次，但从未得出一个哪怕看起来稍微靠谱的数字，除非是我过度思考了。

I feel like I've tried doing this so many times, and I've never landed on, like, a number that feels even vaguely even vaguely legit, unless I'm overthinking it and yeah.

这正是我担心的。如果能找到粗略的替代指标，我认为它能给你足够的方向来经营业务。我是说，有些数字如果极端变动会很明显。如果它们没有极端变动，说明你离目标还有距离，所以不必担心

That's what I'm I'm worried about. If you can come up with rough proxies, I think it'll give you a sense for it, enough to steer the business. I mean, there are numbers that if they move in the extreme, it's gonna be obvious. And if they don't move in the extreme, you're not making progress towards your goal, so don't worry

关于其他公司的北极星指标是什么？这样你能让我了解一下我们应该考虑什么样的北极星指标？

about What are some other companies as North Star Metrics? Just so you can give me a flavor of what are the what's the sort of thing we should be thinking about for North Star Metrics?

我在思考这个类比是否正确，我把你的业务比作一家软件公司。好的。是的。因为软件公司或冥想应用都会关注周活跃用户数。没错。

So I'm thinking whether the analogy is right or wrong, I'm thinking about your business like a software company. Okay. Yeah. Because a software company or, you know, a meditation app is going to want to have weekly active users. Yep.

每周消费他们内容的活跃用户。当然。所以这关系到你的客户适合的节奏是每周、每天还是每月？可能是每月。好的。

Weekly active consumers of their content. Sure. And so that's something about, you know, is the right cadence for your customers weekly, daily, or monthly? Probably monthly. Okay.

那么你就需要类似月活跃听众或内容消费者的指标。

Then you're gonna have something like monthly active listeners or consumers of content.

我们在YouTube分析里确实有个深藏不露的指标，叫月度回访观众数。

We do have a metric in YouTube hidden deep within YouTube analytics, which is monthly returning viewers.

好的。这可能非常

Okay. That could be very

这个指标很可能能真实反映铁粉数量。是的。如果这个数字增长10倍，我们每个视频都能获得数百万观看。明白了。

That that's probably a reasonable proxy for true fans. Yeah. Because if that number were to grow 10 x, we would be getting millions of views on each video. Okay.

那我们怎么称呼这个指标？抱歉。你刚才说的是月度

So what do we call that? Sorry. You said monthly

月度回访观众。对。这些人我的意思是，我可以开始挑剔这一点并思考，嗯，可能有人三年前从内容中获得了很大价值，但他们现在没有获得价值，这种情况下他们就不会出现在那个数字里。

Monthly returning viewers. Yeah. That's people who are I mean, I can start quibbling with that and think, well, someone might have gotten a lot of value from the content three years ago, but they're not getting it now, in which case they wouldn't show up in that number.

所以不算回访。

So not returning.

可能是件好事。对。而且他们不应该出现在那个数字里，因为我们没有继续为他们提供价值。

Probably a good thing. Yeah. And that they shouldn't show up in that number because we're not we're not continuing to provide value to them.

嗯。

Mhmm.

因为如果我们提供了，他们就会成为月度回访观众。所以没错。月度回访观众。这个定义我们暂时可以用。

Because if we were, they would be a monthly returning viewer. And so yeah. Monthly returning viewers. That's probably we we can we can go with that for now.

好的。对。你想压力测试这个定义吗？有什么地方让你觉得不安吗？

Okay. Yeah. Do you wanna stress test that? Is there anything about that that makes you nervous?

让我不安的一点是，帮助YouTube频道增长的内容通常与让人持续观看的内容不同。比如回访观众更可能想看我的vlog或生活记录，但新观众根本不在乎我的vlog，因为他们不认识我。新观众更可能点击类似'九个被动收入点子'这种标题的视频。

One thing about it that makes me nervous is the fact that stuff that helps grow a YouTube channel is often different to stuff that keeps people wanting to watch. So for example, returning viewers are way more likely to want to watch my vlog or I document my life and stuff, but a new viewer doesn't give a shit what my vlog is because they don't know who I am. A new viewer is more likely to click on a video titled something like, I don't know, nine passive income ideas.

好。

K.

但老观众可能会在心里暗暗叹气，觉得他变味了。他们会想，哦，他又在做这种视频只是为了博取点击量。所以迎合现有观众和吸引新观众的动机，感觉常常是相互矛盾的。

But a returning viewer might sigh a bit internally and think, oh, he's sold out. That he's like, oh, he's doing another one of these videos just to get the views. So the the incentives of appealing to the existing audience versus trying to get new audiences sort of feel like they're often often at odds.

嗯。我不

Mhmm. I don't

知道其他公司是否也有这种情况。我猜应该都有。但

know if other companies have this as well. I'm sure they probably do. But

但它们真的矛盾吗？比如，如果有人又看到一个关于九种被动收入想法的视频，他们会取关你，还是会成为忠实粉丝，继续关注你的下一个视频，如果内容是他们喜欢的就会观看？

But are they actually at odds? Like, if someone sees another nine passive income ideas video, are they gonna unfollow you, or are they gonna be a true fan and see what your next video is and watch it if it's what they like?

如果不。公平地说，如果他们对我有足够高的信任度，知道每次Ali发布视频时，至少值得看看他在说什么，而不是仅凭标题就否定，那么，是的，他们可能会至少看一部分。

If no. In fairness, if they felt sufficiently high trust with me that they knew that every time Ali puts out a video, it's at least worth seeing what he's talking about rather than writing it off by just looking at the title, then, yeah, they would they would probably watch at least some of it.

好的。

Okay.

或者说，除非他们属于那类——我也不确定——大约60%的观众群体，比如我团队里就有不少成员纯粹因为主题就不会点击某个视频。他们不会点击被动收入创意视频，因为他们更在意——怎么说呢——他们并不渴望成为企业家。真正会点击那种视频的只有那些怀揣创业梦想的人。而有些人会想：'知道吗？我只想要一份朝九晚五的轻松工作，做自己引以为豪的事，保持工作生活平衡，晚上还能和哥们儿放松一下。'

Or unless they're in the sort of, I don't know, 60% of our audience who, you know like, there are various members of my team, for example, who wouldn't click on a video just purely because of the topic. They wouldn't click on the passive income ideas video because they care more they're not like they don't aspire to be entrepreneurs. So only aspiring entrepreneurs really are gonna click on that video. The people who are like, you know what? I just want a chill nine to five job where I'm doing work I'm proud of, and I've got a work life balance, and I can chill with the boys in the evening.

这是我观众群中相当大一部分人，他们不会点击那个特定视频，尽管那个视频可能会获得——比如——五百万次观看，但这些点击都来自核心观众群之外的人。

That's a significant chunk of my audience that would not click on that particular video, even though that video might get, like, I don't know, 5,000,000 views from other people outside of that core audience.

好的。没错。所以这个模型中有个环节我们需要考虑：如何获得忠实订阅者？如何吸引追随者？然后还有另一个环节，就是如何与他们互动并留住他们。

Okay. Yeah. So there's a piece of this model we're gonna have to think about, which is how do you get loyal subscribers? How do you get followers? And then there's gonna be this other piece, which is how do you engage them and retain them.

对。然后还有另一个环节，就是如何将他们变现。

Yep. And then there's gonna be this other piece, which is how do you monetize them.

是啊。不错。

Yeah. Nice.

我是说，我觉得就这么简单。对吧？

I mean, I I think it's that simple. Right?

确实挺简单的。

That's pretty simple.

吸引观众参与并实现留存和变现。

Get viewers engaged and retain and monetize.

是的。关于将观众数量作为核心指标这件事让我感到紧张的是，我担心这会让我陷入一种压力循环，觉得每个视频都必须达到特定的观看量。这一直是我所抗拒的，因为这种担忧会剥夺创作视频的乐趣，总想着'这个内容会对我们的观看目标产生什么影响'之类的问题。

Yeah. The the the other thing that makes me nervous about some about viewers as a metric, as a North Star metric, is that I worry that that will get me on the hamster wheel of feeling the pressure that every video I make has to then hit a certain view count, which to me is always something that I've rebelled against because it sort of takes some of the joy out of creating the videos to worry about, like, well, is what's this gonna do to our view target kind of thing?

记住，这些将是回头客。所以目标是提供一系列他们认为有价值的内容，而不是追求某个特定的爆款。

So remember, these are gonna be returning visitors. So the goal is to deliver a drumbeat of content that they find valuable rather than, you know, one specific hit.

是的，说得好。

Yeah. Good point.

我猜是这样，因为从我的LinkedIn帖子就能看出，有些内容能带来绝大部分的曝光和观众，而其他内容主要只有忠实读者会参与。是的。无论我多么努力想让所有内容都成为爆款，当我分析别人的内容时，发现他们也都大致遵循相同的分布规律。那些我认为比我优秀得多的创作者，他们的作品也有不尽如人意的。

I'm guessing because, you know, I see this with my LinkedIn posts that I just have bangers that generate the lion's share of my impressions, lion's share of my audience and I have other ones that mostly just my loyal readers engage with. Yep. And you know, no matter how clever I try to be and make them all bangers, And I'm just then when I analyze other people's content, I see they they all have roughly the same distribution. Yeah. People who I think are much better creators than me also have their duds and Yeah.

当然也有他们的爆款。

Also have their bangers.

是的。不过好吧。

Yeah. But Okay.

归根结底，你制作的视频越多，能产出的优质内容也就越多。

Ultimately, the the more videos you make, the more good videos you're gonna make.

没错。另外，如果我们把月度回访观众数作为考量指标——这其实是个很内部的问题——比如我们一直在纠结该把日常vlog放在主频道还是第二个vlog频道？我个人倾向于主频道，因为那里流量更大。而且拥有一个多元化的YouTube频道感觉很棒：既有正襟危坐讲解知识的环节，也有更随性的生活化内容。很多核心粉丝特别喜欢vlog，他们会惊呼'天啊！我就爱看Ollie的日常'。

Yeah. And also, as if I if I think of monthly returning viewers as, like, one one question we've been thinking about to get really inside baseball here is, like, should we put our vlogs on the main channel or on our second vlog channel? And I've sort of been wanting to put them on the main channel because they get more views, and it's like it's kind of nice and feels cool to have a big YouTube channel that has some sit down, talk to camera educational bits, but also some more chilled out bits that are a bit more lifestyle y and stuff. And a lot of the core true fans love the vlogs because they think, oh my god. I love seeing what Ollie's up to.

但这类视频的播放量肯定远低于那些正儿八经讲解'如何赚更多钱'的内容。不过我还是坚持把vlog放主频道，说实话这对提升月度回访观众指标很有帮助。

But they get, like they're guaranteed to get way fewer views than sit down and talk to the camera and explain how to make more money video. But I like putting the vlogs in there as well. So it would be nice for the monthly returning viewers metric, to be honest, to be able to put the vlogs there.

那有没有办法通过实验来验证这个决策是否明智呢？

I mean, so that is is there a way to do an experiment and find out if that's a good idea or not?

有的，我们接下来几个月都会把vlog发布在主频道而非子频道，看看效果如何。

Yeah. We're doing that for the next probably few months to put vlogs on the main channel instead of the second channel and see what happens.

明白了。确实会越来越顺手的，北极星指标这部分本来就是最难的环节。

Okay. Yeah. So this does get easier. The North Star is is definitely the hardest piece of this. And Yep.

一旦突破这个瓶颈，后续很多事就会水到渠成了。

Once you've done that, most of it kind of naturally flows from this.

好的。

Okay.

我认为要精确定义'北极星'指标有点过于乐观。当然，我们可以从系统中提取数据，比如九十天平均值之类的。是的。我想我们至少可以达成一个原则：这个指标应该衡量那些记得你、了解你、喜欢你的人——嗯哼——忠诚消费你内容的人群规模，大概是因为他们觉得内容有帮助。

I'm I think it's a little ambitious to think we're gonna be able to tightly define the North Star. Sure. Metrics from this system, you know, average over ninety days or whatever. Yeah. Think I we can agree on the the principle that it's gonna be some measurement of who are people who remember you and know you and like you and Mhmm.

忠诚地消费你的内容，大概是因为他们觉得内容有帮助。

Loyally consume your content, presumably because they find it helpful.

是的。先插播一条赞助商信息，然后我们继续节目。如果你正在网上赚钱或存钱，并想知道如何增值，不妨看看本集赞助商Trading 212。这款神奇的应用我已经使用多年，它能让你免佣金投资股票和基金。我最喜欢的功能是'投资派'和自动投资功能。

Yeah. Just a quick message from one of our sponsors, and then we'll get back to the show. So if you are making money online or saving up and wondering how to grow it, you might wanna check out Trading two one two, who are very kindly sponsoring this episode. Trading two one two is an amazing app that I've been using for the last several years now that makes investing in stocks and shares and funds simple and commission free. One of my favorite features that they've got is the pies and auto invest features.

这些工具能轻松创建多元化投资组合，实现自动化投资。通过这个功能，你可以根据设定的资产配置自动分配资金，无缝再投资股息，还能通过定期存款和月度供款实现全自动化。甚至能自动再平衡投资组合——这通常是高净值人群通过投资银行才能享受的服务，但在Trading 212上完全免费。你可以创建符合个人目标的定制投资派，或从派库中选择主题组合，比如股息派、成长派和科技派。

Now these tools make it easy to create a diversified portfolio that helps you automate your investing. With this feature, you can automatically allocate assets based on your chosen asset diversification. You can reinvest dividends seamlessly, and you can fully automate this process with scheduled deposits and monthly contributions. You can even automatically rebalance your portfolio, and this is a feature that's usually reserved for high net worth individuals using investment banks, but it's entirely free using Trading two one two. You can create your own custom investment pie tailored to your goals, or you can choose from the pie library, which includes themes like dividend pies, growth pies, and tech pies.

这是在保持完全控制权的同时探索不同投资策略的好方法。与普遍认知相反，其实投资并不需要大笔资金。即使是苹果或特斯拉这样的高价股，也能购买小额零股。零股投资和免佣金这两大功能，让你无需担心手续费侵蚀收益就能建立多元化组合。说到费用，Trading 212的成本极低，外汇兑换仅收取0.15%的行业最低费率。

This is a great way to explore different strategies while maintaining full control of your investments. Despite common belief, you actually don't need a lot of money to start investing, and even high priced stocks like Apple or Tesla, you can buy fractional shares of those stocks for just a small amount. And with these two features, fractional shares and zero commission investing, those let you build a diversified portfolio without worrying about fees eating into your returns. Speaking of fees, Trading two one two keeps costs super low. They charge just a 0.15 foreign exchange fee on currency conversions, which is the lowest in the industry.

加上新推出的多币种支持，最多可持有12种货币交易，避免国际交易中的不必要兑换费。此外，Trading 212现在提供完全免费的借记卡（无隐藏订阅费），在2025年1月前消费可享1.5%返现。该卡与投资账户无缝衔接，既能赚取返现又能让未投资现金产生复利。交易使用真实银行间汇率且免货币转换费。想体验的话，请查看视频描述或节目说明中的链接。

And with their new multicurrency support, you can hold and trade in up to 12 currencies, which saves you from unnecessary conversion fees when trading internationally. On top of that, Trading two one two now offers a debit card, which is completely free with no sneaky subscription plans, and it gives you 1.5% cash back on purchases until January 2025. The card seamlessly integrates with your Trading two one two Invest account, so you can earn cash back while also compounding interest on uninvested cash. There are no currency conversion fees, and you'll always get the true interbank exchange rate for your transactions. If you'd like to get started with this, check out the link in the video description or in the show notes.

如果你使用促销代码注册，Ali，你将获得价值高达100英镑的免费零碎股票，这相当于白送的钱，所以不妨领取一下。当然，快速声明一下，本集由Trading 212赞助，但我不是财务顾问，这也不是财务建议。投资时，你的资金当然存在风险，可能会收回少于投资的金额。过往表现不能保证未来结果，条款和费用适用，你可以在视频描述和Trading 212网站上找到所有详细信息。好的。

And if you sign up using the promo code, Ali, you'll get a free fractional share worth up to a £100, which free money, so you might as well claim it. And, of course, a quick disclaimer, this episode is sponsored by Trading two one two, but I am not a financial adviser, and this is not financial advice. When investing, your capital is, of course, at risk, and you might get back less than you invest. Past performance does not guarantee future results, and terms and fees apply, you'll and find all the details in the video description and on the Trading two one two website. Cool.

感谢Trading 212赞助本集节目，让我们继续。很多看我内容的人都渴望实现财务自由，他们会想，要是我有个能产生被动收入的生意就好了，就能为所欲为了......但当你问他们到底想要什么时，回答往往是'我不知道'。

So thanks Trading two one two for sponsoring this episode, and let's get back to it. A lot of people who watch my stuff aspire to the whole financial freedom thing where they're like, oh, if only I had the business that I that made passive income, I'd be able to do whatever I want. Dot dot dot dot dot. And it's like, well, when you ask, like, well, what do you want? It's like, I don't know.

只是能够不做我不想做的事。好吧，但然后你想做什么呢？这问题某种程度上会让人很难面对。

Just being able to not do things I don't wanna have to do. It's like, okay. But then what do you wanna do? It's like becomes quite confronting in a way. Oh Yeah.

你在这方面有什么经历？

What was your experience with that?

这其实挺有趣的，因为我觉得所有人第一次读那本书时都会错过那一章。他们只关注'如何赚取大量被动收入'。而当他们真的获得后，基本上所有人都会发现自己在那种生活中并不快乐。这种快乐大概能维持三、六或十二个月，你会去旅行，参加各种随机课程，玩爱好，然后内心会感到某种空虚。

Well, it it's such a funny thing because I feel like everybody misses that chapter the first time they read the book. They just focus on the how do I make a bunch of passive income. And then if they get it, basically everybody realizes that they're just not very happy in that life. It's fun for like three, six, twelve months. You do the traveling, you do the, you know, taking whatever random classes you want, playing with your hobbies, and then you feel kind of empty inside.

你会意识到有意义的工作才是人类满足感的核心部分。我那时首先意识到的是：为了获得被动收入而做这些事以便能退出，这本身就是个亏本买卖。因为做一堆你不想做的工作，就为了不用做你不想做的工作，这种交易很愚蠢——如果你有其他选择的话。那是我第一次意识到：我应该尝试从事一些长期的事业。对吧？一些我能年复一年持续从事并享受其中的事情，因为这才是获得长期幸福的途径。

And you realize that meaningful work is a core part of human fulfillment. And what I realized, you know, first back then was that just doing these things to get some passive income so that I could quit doing them was really a losing proposition because doing a bunch of work that you don't really want to do so that you don't have to do work that you don't want to do is kind of this like silly trade off if you have the option to make it. And it it it that was the first time when I was like, okay, I should try to actually work on something long term. Right? Something that I could actually keep working on year after year after year after year after year and enjoy working on it because that's where you're actually going to get this long term happiness.

被动收入圈子里没人愿意告诉你的是：其实根本不存在真正的被动收入。因为一旦你让它变得被动，它就开始消亡。它会慢慢下滑，逐渐枯竭。其他人会进来抢走你的饭碗。你的作品会过时，你的产品会过时。

And the thing that nobody in the passive income world wants to tell you is that there's really no such thing as passive income Because the minute you let it go passive, it starts dying. It starts just slowly going down and it will trickle away. Other people will come in and eat your lunch. Your work will get stale. Your products will get stale.

你会在亚马逊、课程、SEO或其他领域被击败。两年后，你会回到创业前的起点。所以你最好利用这两年做些有意义的事——如果以为能永远靠融资过逍遥日子，最终处境会比起点更糟。不仅被动收入归零，还会白白浪费两三年生命。我认为'被动收入+每周四小时工作'这种生活方式生意的真正价值，在于为更宏大的事业积累启动资金。比如当你想成为作家、画家、YouTuber等需要长期投入才能变现的职业时，先用这种生意模式支撑两年过渡期，其实很明智。

You'll get beaten out on Amazon or for your courses or for your SEO or whatever. And in two years, you're gonna be back where you started before you built the thing. So you better use those two years to get somewhere interesting because if you think that you can just gallivant around living this funded lifestyle forever, you're actually going to be worse off than where you started at the end of it because not only will you be back to square one without the passive income, you'll have now lost two, three, four years of your life. So where I think the the passive income four hour work week lifestyle business stuff is very useful is a way to bootstrap working on something bigger. So if you know that you want to be a writer or a painter or a YouTuber or any of these careers with a long start up time to pay your bills, doing the lifestyle business first to fund you for two years while you get that going is actually pretty smart.

初创公司同理。如果能用这种商业模式争取缓冲期，避免过早融资和股权稀释，就是绝佳的应用场景。但用新鲜体验填补空虚感很快就会腻味，你必须做好心理准备。我并非要劝阻人们尝试。

I mean, same thing with a start up. Right? If you can do the lifestyle business to give you some runway to actually work on a startup so that you don't have to take money right away and don't have to dilute yourself, that's an incredibly good use case. But trying to fill the void with experiences and novelty does get old really, really quickly, and you have to be ready for that. And I don't tell people not to do it.

我不劝阻他们追逐这种生活，因为没人会相信。他们会说'你只是厌倦了，但我不会，我超爱旅行，超爱打卡新餐厅'。

I don't tell them not to chase it because nobody believes you when you say that. Right? They're like like, yeah, you got tired of it, but I won't. Like, I love traveling. I love going to new restaurants.

我也喜欢这些事。但你的热爱源于它们能暂时逃离你不喜欢的工作，且只是偶尔为之。当这成为生活全部时，厌倦感会来得很快——不过必须亲身体验才能明白这个道理。当隐约意识到这点时，不必愧疚，坦然接受就好。

I love doing these things. And it's like, yeah, you love them because they're a break from the work that you don't enjoy doing and because they're occasional things. When that's your whole life, you're gonna get bored really quickly, but you have to go experience it to realize that that's the case. But then once you have that little inkling, don't feel guilty about it. Accept it.

告诉自己：'很好，这个选项我体验过了。现在我有资本去做曾经不敢尝试的大事，那就放手去做吧。'

Say, cool. I checked this box and now I have this runway to go do this big thing that I was scared of doing before, but I now have the means to do, and go do that thing.

说得好。《有限与无限的游戏》就是这个道理。

Nice. Yeah. That's great. Finite and Infinite Games.

嗯。

Mhmm.

我记得你在早期的一个YouTube视频里提到过这本书。

You talk about this book, I think, in one of your YouTube videos from back in the day.

它无处不在。

It everywhere.

全都是纸质书。

It's all on paper books.

确实无处不在。虽然我还没读过这本书，但关于有限与无限游戏这个概念，我或者听众们应该理解些什么呢？

Everywhere. Yeah. I've I've never read the book, but, like, what what should I understand or what should listeners understand about the idea of finite versus infinite games?

这是本很棒的书，篇幅很短。它既古怪又哲学，但某种程度上也非常实用。书的核心论点是：你生活中所做的一切都是一种游戏，对吧？

So it's a wonderful book. It's very short. It's weird and philosophical, but also very tactical in its own way. And the core thesis of the book is that everything that you do in life is a kind of game. Right?

就像我们现在为你的播客、为你的YouTube进行的这场对话，某种程度上也是一种游戏。游戏有两种思考方式：有限游戏有封闭边界，有赢家和输家，规则明确，存在成功或失败的标准。

So this conversation that we're having for your podcast, for your YouTube is a a game of sorts. And there are two ways to think of games. A finite game has a closed boundary. It has a winner and loser. It has clear rules and you there there's a way to like succeed or fail.

所有这些都有终点，对吧？比如足球比赛本身就是有限游戏，因为最后会有胜负。如果我带着'必须赢得这场对话'的有限游戏心态参与，就会拼命在所有话题里塞加密机密信息——就像现在这样，对吧？比如不停说'快去买书'之类的。

There's an end to it, all these things. Right? Like a football game is itself a finite game because there will be a winner or a loser at the end of it. If I came into this conversation with a finite game mentality of I need to win this conversation, I'd be very focused on slipping crypto confidential into everything that I talk about. I'm telling you, yeah, exactly, like buy the book, right?

要知道，如果你在播客结束前购买，就能得到10个什么的，对吧？就像你要榨干它的全部价值。但如果你用无限游戏的思维来看待这件事，你唯一的目标基本上就是玩得开心。玩无限游戏的目的就是为了让游戏持续下去。

You know, if Like, if you buy by the end of this podcast, you're gonna get 10, you know, whatever. Right? Like, you'd you'd be milking it for all that it's worth. But if you take a more infinite game approach to something like this, your only goal is to basically like have fun. The the the reason you play an infinite game is to keep the game going.

它是为了不断扩展游戏的边界和领域。如果你这样想，这不是交易，没有赢家或输家，你的行为会完全不同，因为我此刻只专注于和你进行有趣的对话。如果提到书很好，没提到我也无所谓，因为我们就像朋友一样，在网上认识多年，就是玩得开心，也希望这对听众有价值。这意味着我们一生中会有更多对话，我们共同参与的这个游戏——作为网络创作者、书籍作者等等，可以随着我们在漫长职业生涯中互相支持而无限扩展。

It's to continue to extend the boundaries and the realm of play. And if you're thinking about it that way, where it's not transactional, it's not a winner or a loser, you behave very differently because the only thing that I'm focused on right now is like having a fun conversation with you. And if the book comes up, great. If it doesn't, I also don't care because like we're friends, we've known each other on the internet for years, like, we're just having a good time and like, hopefully, it's valuable to people too, which means that we're going to have a lot more conversations over the course of our life. Like, this this game that we are playing together of being, you know, Internet creators, book writers, whatever, can continue to expand infinitely as we continue to support each other over the course of our hopefully very, very long careers.

你可以用这种方式思考生活中的许多事情。对吧？比如体育类比，如果你只关注赢得这场网球比赛，那么你的情绪、身份认同都与每场比赛结果挂钩。但如果你玩的是提升网球技术的无限游戏，那么无论单场比赛输赢，你都在赢得不断进步的无限游戏。

And you can think of so many things in your life this way. Right? Like, even even the the sports analogy, right? If you're constantly focused on winning this tennis match, then your your emotion, your identity, everything is tied to the outcome of each match. But if the game that you're playing is getting better at tennis, then whether you win or lose the individual game, you're still winning at the infinite game of getting better and better.

或者你的无限游戏就是单纯热爱击球。德约科维奇有段精彩采访，他说自己的优势就是热爱击球，这让他成为世界顶级网球选手。这样思考问题，你就不会纠结短期结果，反而能在这些小规模有限游戏中赢得更多，因为你不在意单个比赛的结果。

Or if your infinite game is just that I love to hit the ball. Right? There's this wonderful Djokovic interview where he's like, my advantage is that I just love hitting the ball. And that's why he's like one of the best tennis players in the world. And if you can think about it that way, then you're less attached to short term outcomes and you end up like winning more of these little finite games along the way because you're not attached to their individual outcomes.

他把这个理念融入许多领域。比如人际关系，找到伴侣或成功约会的最佳方式不是刻意追求成功约会，而是做真实的自己，对对方感兴趣，真诚交流，而不是看表想着能不能带对方回家或从中获取什么。

And so he he ties this into so many things. He ties it into relationships, right? Like, you know, the the best way to to find a partner or to have a successful date is to not be trying to make it a successful date. Right? Is to, like, just be yourself and be interested in them and, have a conversation and not be checking the watch and wondering if you're gonna get to go home with them and, like, trying to, you know, get something out of it.

对吧？如果你做YouTube视频，玩'让每期视频都进步一点点'的无限游戏，长期来看远比纠结每期视频是否达到某个具体指标更有价值。作为作家，我当然希望这本书成功，但我这辈子都会继续写作。所以我知道，把精力集中在写出最好的书上，而非榨取最大销量，才能为未来写出更多好书奠定基础，长期积累成更有趣的成果。

Right? If you're, you know, if you're if you're working on YouTube videos, right, like, playing the infinite game of trying to make each video a little bit better is going to pay off a lot more in the long run than being obsessed over every single video hurting hitting like a very specific metric. You know, me as a writer, like I hope that this book does good. I want it to do good, but I'm in this for the rest of my life at this point. And so I know that by focusing so much more of my energy on making the best book possible, instead of on milking as many sales from it as possible, that's gonna set me up for many many great books in the future and over a long term that's going to compound into more and more interesting things.

这本书最棒的地方就是向你展示了生活中所有可以运用无限思维的地方，而不是总执着于赢得眼前的每一件小事。

So that book is just so good at showing you all of the parts of your life where you could be thinking on this more infinite horizon instead of constantly being attached to winning whatever little thing you're in in that moment.

建立基本的财务安全水平，让你不必为开支如何支付而担忧，我认为这对压力有着截然不同的影响。帕特里克在这方面进行了更深入的多层次研究。但我确实认为，制定一个周密的计划——无论是参考蒂姆·费里斯关于工作周的著作，还是托尼·罗宾斯关于制定基本财务规划的书籍——然后创建能带给你基础安全感的资源，这是一种明智的做法，并能改变基本层面的焦虑程度。实际上我认为，作为基础第一步，这件事需要被更多人讨论。

Creating a baseline level of financial security such that you don't have to to to worry about where your expenses are going to be handled, I do think has a totally different impact on stress. And and Patrick's gone into a lot deeper research on this at all kinds of levels. But I do think that, like, having a thoughtful plan, whether you do what's in, you know, Tim Tim Ferriss' book for our work week, Tony Robbins' book of just, like, creating just, a basic financial plan and then creating the resources that gives you that fundamental security is a is a wise approach and does change baseline levels of concern. This is like practically I don't think enough people talk about that needs to get done as a sort of a first baseline step.

比如当你处于为支付账单发愁的阶段，显然赚更多钱会让你快乐得多，因为这样你就消除了生活中的所有压力。是的。

Like if you're if you're at the point where you're worried about paying your bills, then obviously getting more money is gonna make you way happier because now you've removed all that stress from your life. Yeah.

我还见证过一些人在获得巨额退出后，仍让生活方式膨胀到超出他们惊人财富承受范围的情况。即便取得了非凡成就，'我的钱够不够'这种根本性焦虑依然会持续存在。

And then I also I also have have witnessed people even after huge exits who will let a level of lifestyle creep go beyond where where their incredible means take them. And the fundamental concerns about do I have enough will sort of persist despite having created an incredible outcome.

好的。所以随着财富增长，适当控制生活开支是重要的一环。听起来这是'不被金钱困扰'这个拼图中关键的一块。

Okay. So as you get more money, kind of keeping your lifestyle costs fairly in check is an important part of that. It sounds like it's an important part of that kind of not being stressed out by money kind of piece.

没错。比如当你的开支仅占储蓄的4%时，这从根本上就是不同的状态——只要进行合理投资，按照普遍规律这就是安全可持续的基准线。

Yeah. I mean, if you're, for example, able to live after like like like, once you can get to a point where your expenses are 4% of whatever you have saved, that is a fundamentally, like, different just as a general rule, you know, as long as you're sort of thoughtfully investing, that's a secure, you know, and sustainable sort of play you know, place to be.

财富对你的影响程度取决于你的不安全感层级。我认为'月入1万美元'类视频更受欢迎不仅因为这个目标更可实现，更因为这笔被动收入能解决大多数人的核心焦虑。而10万美元更多是锦上添花，可能只是让人多些消费幻想。

Yeah. Wealth impacts you to the level of your insecurity. That's really where it comes from. Like, if you think about the the reason I I would posit that the $10,000 per month videos do better is not only because it seems more achievable, but because $10,000 in passive income takes care of a massive amount of people. And all of a sudden, getting to a 100,000 is nice to have, and maybe there's a thing that they could think about that they would purchase.

但值得庆幸的是，很多人对每年多赚12万美元就能很好适应。我发现超过月入1万/10万等门槛后，财富带来的变化真正影响的还是你内心不安全的那个层级。举个例子，我有些和我们经历类似退出的朋友是'数字型人格'——那个数字必须持续增长才行。

But a lot of people, thankfully, are pretty well adjusted if getting a extra $120,000 a year. What I have found is that wealth beyond 10,000 a month, 100,000 a month, and there and so so on and so forth, it really impacts or the changes that starts to impact you are at the level of where that insecurity is. So to give you an example, like, I know I have friends who have had similar exits to us, and they are numbers people. Meaning, that number needs to constantly be going up. Yeah.

客观来说，数字本不需要增长。他们并没有购买任何需要数字上涨的东西。他们想买的东西也无需那个特定数字，但那个数字却给了他们某种目标感。这并不健康。它只是给了他们某种目标，也许他们说服自己这就是他们想玩的游戏，并从中获得乐趣。

Objectively, the number does not need to be going up. They're not purchasing anything that would need the the number to go up. There's nothing that they want to buy that they would demand that particular number, but that number gives them some sort of, like, purpose. And this is not healthy. It's just it gives them some sort of purpose, and maybe they convince themselves that's the game that they wanna play and they get enjoyment.

也许他们确实获得了乐趣，但他们心理上有些问题。根据先天与后天之争，他们成长或发展的方式中有些东西导致他们本质上需要追逐那个目标。我认为当你达到这种高财富水平时，这确实难以共情，但理解这种现象很有意思。但很多人应该意识到，当你达到一万时，你会看向十万；接近十万时，又会看向百万。

And maybe they actually do get enjoyment, but there's something in their psyche. There's something in how they were they were they were built or developed depending on the nature versus nurture debate that has now caused them to essentially need to chase that. And I think that that's something that as you get to these higher levels of wealth, it it's, you know, it's again, it's it's it's hard to empathize with, but it is something that's interesting to kind of understand. But the one thing a lot of people should realize, if you're getting to the 10,000, you will look to the 100,000. As you're getting closer to the 100 to thousand, you will look to the million.

你需要停下来问问自己为什么。大多数人会退缩，因为我发现财富并不能替代人生目标。但人们常把它当作目标的替代品去追逐，最终却未必感到满足。我没感到满足的原因，除了童年缺乏关爱外，还因为这段旅程——那句老话'重在过程而非结果'真的非常正确。所以当款项到账时，我并没有中彩票般的狂喜，因为这一切都是十年努力的水到渠成。

And you need to kind of stop yourself and realize, like, ask yourself why? And most people will kind of pull back because what I have found is wealth is not a replacement for purpose. And oftentimes, people look at it as a replacement for purpose, and they'll go chase something, and then they won't necessarily feel something. The reason I didn't feel something is because, again, I wasn't hugged enough as a child, but also the journey, you know, this whole cliche of it's the journey, not the destination was really, really true. So when the wire hit, I didn't feel like I I, you know, won the lottery because it was like, yeah.

数字可能比预期大些，但毕竟付出了十年努力，理应有所回报。这不是什么惊喜。举个真实例子：在公司出售前，我咨询了30位创始人，他们以不同价格出售了公司。

Like, maybe the numbers are bigger than I thought that they were gonna be, but I just did all this work for ten years, and so there should be some outcome. Right? So it was like, that's the thing. So it wasn't this surprise. And to give a little bit of an anecdote, so before I sold the company and I was debating whether we should sell the company or not, I talked to 30 other founders, and I asked them, you know, and they all sold their companies for different amounts of money.

我问他们是否会再次出售，15人毫不犹豫地表示那是最佳决定，认为应该把握机会等等。

I asked them, would you sell again? 15 of them said, yeah. Absolutely. It was the best decision. Get the bag, etcetera.

另外15人表示不会。其中七八人选择留任被收购后的公司，他们抱怨处境糟糕；剩下的七八人没有留任，从定性来看这群人最痛苦——他们坐拥财富却失去了人生目标。

The other 15 said they wouldn't. And of those fifteen, eight seven or eight went with the company post sale, meaning, like, they sold the company, and then they worked at the company that had bought them. And they said a lot of things about it was miserable, blah blah blah blah blah. The other seven or eight didn't go with the company, and that group, at least qualitatively, was the most miserable. They had all this money, and then they were sitting there, and they're like, they had lost their purpose.

是啊。

Yeah.

然后他们

And they

他们的反应是，好吧，我原以为金钱很重要，于是他们规避生活风险，买了房子等等，但现在我失去了原本在做的事业。现在我试图重新建立，但我明明已经建立过了。那我到底在做什么？不幸的是，这七个人中有三四个染上了毒瘾或酒瘾。他们现在都康复了，但那段时间对那三四个人来说相当艰难。

were like, well, I thought the money was important, and they derisked their lives, bought a house, whatever it is, but now, like, I lost the thing that I was doing. And now I'm just gonna try to go rebuild that, but I had already built it. So what am I doing? And then, unfortunately, of those seven, three or four of them became substance abuse, like drug addicts or alcoholics. They're all good now, but it was it was pretty intense for those three or four.

因此我认为财富不能替代人生目标，这是需要牢记的重要真理。可惜这可能是那种需要亲身经历的智慧。你听别人讲时可能会想'哦，那个大胡子说过这个'，但希望这能让你少走一两段弯路。

And so I think that wealth isn't a replacement for purpose is a really, really important thing to keep in mind. And, unfortunately, it's probably one of those wisdom things. You can't really learn it until you experience it, but you'll listen and be like, oh, that bearded guy said this, and so hopefully it saves you a cycle or two.

我自己也深有体会，但我想讲个类似的故事。我人生中有位导师，现在七十多岁了。他在二十岁出头时就睿智地决定要过双重人生。23岁时他写了份人生商业计划：40岁前要成为企业家，建立事业并在40岁时退出，他甚至在23岁就定下了退出时想要的金额数字。他觉得这个目标既合理又可实现。

I had to feel it myself as well, but I wanna tell a similar story that so I had a mentor in my life. He's now in his seventies, and he had the wisdom in his early twenties to say, I wanna have a two part life. He wrote a business plan for his life at age 23, which was by age 40, he wanted to, become an entrepreneur, build a business, and have an exit by age 40, and he named the number he wanted to exit for back when he was 23. And it was he felt felt like it was reasonable. It was achievable.

按现今币值计算，大概是大几百万美元。他在23岁就有这样的智慧，认定'这些钱对我来说足够了'。虽然他可能永远会想要更多，但

Let's call it in today's dollars, maybe high single digit millions. Okay? And he's had the wisdom at age 23 to say, I am going to say that's enough for me. And I will always potentially want

这心态在23岁就很成熟了，对吧？

well adjusted here. Right? Right? At 23.

没错。

Right.

我从未想过会是这样的

I never would have thought this was

23岁。

23.

那很好。是的。他实际上在哈佛商学院就读时就制定了这个计划。他是通过工程类奖学金入学的，你知道的

That's good. Yeah. He he is actually at Harvard Business School while he writes this plan. He got in on, like, an engineering scholarship and, you know

我正想说他在23岁时也进了哈佛商学院。

I was gonna say he's at HBS at 23 as well.

没错。然后他制定了这个计划，并付诸实施。在39岁时提前一年，他成功出售并达到了目标数字。

Yeah. Right. And he writes this plan. He goes ahead and he executes it. At age 39 a year early, he sells for and he hits his number.

随后他转向了职业生涯的第二阶段——以使命为驱动。他在理智上决定了自己一直热爱的法律事业，四十出头时进入法学院，成为一名主要为弱势群体辩护的律师，现在是他人生中最有使命感和幸福感的人之一。

And he shifts into the second part of his career, which was purpose driven. He decided intellectually, he always wanted to he loved the law. He went to law school in his early forties, and he became a lawyer who basically took on cases to sort of help, you know, defend people who and is one of the most, like, sort of purpose driven and happy people in his life.

但他正在竞选总统。

But the he's running for president.

哦。对。对。但是

Oh. Yeah. Yeah. But

为什么他是怎么做到的？因为我一直在想，他是怎么做到的？对吧？因为我就在这里。我们在这么棒的地方。

why how did he pull it off? Because I've thought of, like, how does he pull this off? Right? Because I'm here. We're in this amazing place.

对吧？而且，往下两排有贵三倍的房子，可能会让我想要更多。对吧？所以我试着记住这个人，因为他的人生目标指引着他。我认为他保持正轨的原因有两个。

Right? And, like, two rows down there are houses that are three times as much that I could be pulled to want more. Right? And so I try to remember this guy because the purpose part of his life has guided him. I think the way he stayed on track to me is for two reasons.

你是《原子习惯》的粉丝，所以我觉得道理就在那里。第一点

And you're an Atomic Habits fan, so I I think it's in there. Number A

一点点。

little bit.

第一，他后来将自己的人生身份定义为符合他的目标——拥有第二职业并帮助他人。第二，他知道环境很重要。他在那次退出后搬离了圣路易斯的城镇，搬到了怀俄明州，那里的社区价值观是健康、积极生活，而不是他原来商业圈那种'你接下来要做什么'的激烈竞争。

Number one, he defined the his identity in life later as having been living in cons you know, consistent with his purpose of having a second career and helping people. Number two, he knew that his environment would matter. He moved out of like the town he lived in in St. Louis after he had this exit. He moved to Wyoming where the currency of his community was gonna be health, being active, and you know, not the rat race of, you know, the the the business community he was in about what are you doing next, what have you.

所以他刻意让自己的环境被那些不会不断挑战他'更多更多'意图的人围绕。是的。我觉得这个故事有很多启示，早在詹姆斯·克利尔提出这些理论的二十年前，他就已经在金钱方面实践了这些原则。

So he literally made his environment be thoughtfully surrounded with people who were not going to sort of challenge his intention of more, more, more, more, more. So he's yeah. That story I think has a lot of lessons that twenty years before, you know, James Clear was putting this out and how it applies to money, he lived.

这让我感觉破碎。但我觉得真正有趣的是，我们之前聊过这个，就是过去几年里我们做了大量的自我反省。而且，如果你正在看这个，你很可能也是个善于自省的人。显然，你已经做过很多自我反省了。

Just makes me feel broken. Fetch. But I think that what's really interesting about that, you and I were talking about this, is, like, that like, you and I have done an incredible amount of, like, introspection over the past couple years. And and, you know, if you're watching this, you probably are someone who does introspection. Obviously, you've done a lot of introspection.

这让我脑海中迸发出一个问题——虽然我们在这里无法解决——那就是：人能否达到那种平静的境界？还是说，认为无法达到那种平静反而更容易些？既然如此，人该如何生活？所以过去一年我做了很多自省，试图弄清什么驱动我、激励我，什么是下一个目标，我需要下一个目标吗等等。但我不确定自己能否达到那种境界，这至少是个限制性信念——我甚至不确定能否获得那种平静。

And I think that that that makes me spark a question in my head that we're not gonna settle, unfortunately, here, which is, like, can you get to that level of, like, peace, or is it something that it's almost easier to assume you can't get to that level of peace. Therefore, how should you live your life? Right? So I've done what I mean is I've done a lot of introspection over the past year to get to, like, what drives me, what motivates me, what is the next thing, do I need a next thing, all of those other things. But I don't know if I could ever get to that and it's limiting belief, at least, but I don't know if I can ever get to that level of peace.

我目前达到的最好状态，是逐渐扩大的自由圈层。意思是：我现在能做到这些，接下来想解决镇上的小规模问题，然后希望能解决更大范围的问题。这类事情能激励我，但我内心仍有种焦虑感，总觉得必须追求更多，无法感到满足。

Like, the best thing I've gotten to is I like increasing, like, concentric circles of freedom. Meaning, like, I am able to do this. Now I want to, try to solve this small scale problem in my town, and then I wanna be able to solve a larger scale problem. Like, that type of stuff motivates me, but I still have this, like, energy where it's it's it's it's an anxiety where there has to be something more. Like, there isn't a contentment.

这可能和年龄有关。我还没有孩子，诸如此类。但我真的很想见这个人，希望你能引荐。我就想直接过去...

And it could be an age thing. I don't have kids yet, all these other things. But, yeah, it's a really like, I wanna meet this person. I hope you can intro me. I just wanna, like, go and Yeah.

开车或飞过去当面问：告诉我你是怎么达到这种境界的，就是这类事情。

Drive up or fly up and be like, just tell me tell me how you got here, like, that type of a thing.

虽然我觉得他不会用这些术语，但他会说：他把大脑重新编程回身份认同，宣称'我的一部分就是要这样思考，永远渴望更多'。而且他是公开这么说的——这甚至写进了他教授看过的论文里，是公开的。所以如果他追求更多（至少财务上），就相当于在违背自己的身份认同。这个周末我们聊到你时我就在想：如果你的身份和目的明确界定为完全注重影响力，或把时间花在教学等非财务目标上...

I mean, but one of the things that I don't think he would put it in these terms, but he would say, like, he hacked his brain back to identity and said, part of who I am is gonna be somebody who, like Thinks this way, does You this could always want more. And so if he and he's public about that. Was literally written into a paper that his professor saw, right, and like publicly knew, right? So he could if he was going to go in a pursuit of more, at least financially, then he would be essentially living in contrast to his identity. And it's something that I thought about related to some of the things we were talking about for you this weekend is like, if your clearly defined identity and purpose is measured totally on impact or spending your time on teaching or or or what have you and is explicitly not financial beyond a certain point.

是啊。

Yeah.

然后这些是公开的。公开创作和表达的好处之一在于它能成为支撑你保持一致的脚手架。是的。在互联网和社交媒体出现之前，他就通过生活中的社区和人们将想法公之于众，我认为这形成了一种身份认同的支撑框架。

And then that's public. One of the benefits of creating and saying stuff publicly is it can be scaffolding to keep you consistent. Yeah. And in in ways like before the Internet and social media with the community and people he had in his life, he put that out there, which created a little, I think, like, identity scaffolding support.

我认为尽快达到财务不主导决策的阶段是正确路径。是的。我现在所处的阶段比那个目标低一两步，而你描述的那位朋友则低了五步。我现在的状态是：我不必做任何事，但有些目标我想用现有或未来资源去实现。我认为第一层次是每个人都能达到的，无论是满足于4万或4万英镑的年薪，还是通过自省明白什么真正重要。

I think the the quick getting to the point where finances are not driving decision making as quickly as humanly possible is the path. Yeah. Now one step or two steps down from that is where I would consider myself, and five steps down from that is where this friend you're describing is. Where I'm at is, like, I don't have to do anything, but there are things that I would like to unlock with what I have or what I could get, etcetera. And I think that that first level is where everyone can get, either by getting content with, you know, their 40,000 or £40,000, you know, salary per year or, you know, doing some of this introspection of, like, what's really important.

过去一年我们经常讨论这一点：思考你想要什么非常重要。是的。然后逆向规划。听起来这位朋友做到了极少人能达到的程度，这真的

And you and I have talked a lot about this the past year of, like, how important it is to just think about what do you want Yeah. And then work backwards. And that's what it sounds like this this person has done to a level that, you know, very few people even get close to, which is really,

非常值得感谢。好了，这就是本周深度探讨节目的全部内容。非常感谢您的观看或收听。节目中提到的所有链接和资源都会放在视频简介或节目注释中，具体取决于您的收听平台。

really thankful. Alright. So that's it for this week's episode of deep dive. Thank you so much for watching or listening. All the links and resources that we mentioned in the podcast are gonna be linked down in the video description or in the show notes depending on where you're watching or listening to this.

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