乔治·利盖蒂

你好。

Hello.

我是克里斯蒂·杨，这是来自《荒岛唱片》档案的播客。

I'm Christie Young, and this is a podcast from the Desert Island Discs archive.

由于版权原因，我们不得不缩短了音乐部分。

For rights reasons, we've had to shorten the music.

这个节目最初于1982年播出，主持人是罗伊·普莱姆利。

The program was originally broadcast in 1982, and the presenter was Roy Plumley.

本周的荒岛嘉宾是作曲家乔治·尼杰尔蒂。

Our castaway this week is the composer, George Nigerti.

那么，尼杰尔蒂先生，你只有八张唱片的配额，你更愿意带乐谱而不是唱片吗？

Now, this meager allowance you have, mister Nigerti, of just eight discs, would you prefer to take scores rather than records?

哦，这是个难题。

Oh, it's a difficult question.

不。

No.

也许是唱片。

Maybe records.

唱片。

Records.

你平时经常在家听唱片吗？

Do you play records a great deal for playing

是的。

at home?

是的。

Yes.

我喜欢音乐。

I like music.

我想也是。

I thought you might.

在选择你的八张唱片时，你有考虑过什么计划吗？

In choosing your eight records, did you have any plan?

没有。

No.

没有。

No.

这是质量的问题。

It's quality.

什么是质量是非常主观的。

What what's quality is very subjective.

我喜欢各种音乐，你知道的，所谓的严肃音乐，还有流行音乐。

And I like every music, you know, so called very serious music, but also popular music.

我是爵士乐迷。

I am a jazz fan.

但在这里，我只选择了古典音乐。

But here, I I choose only classical music.

选这些花了你很长时间吗？

Did it take you long to choose?

是的。

Yes.

我非常认真地对待这份工作。

I took this job very seriously.

所以你看，要选出八张唱片非常困难。

So you see, it's very difficult to have eight records.

如果是二十张，会更好。

If it would be 20, it would be better.

哦，是的。

Oh, yes.

五十张甚至更好。

50, even better than that.

是的。

Yes.

是的。

Yes.

我不得不放弃像巴赫、贝多芬、肖邦和舒曼这样的作曲家。

I I had to drop composers like Bach and Beethoven and Chopin and Schumann.

所以事情变得严肃起来了。

So things were getting serious.

是的。

Yes.

你选的第一首是什么？

What's the first one you've chosen?

是卡洛·杰苏阿尔多的牧歌《Belta poi qui tacenti》。

It's madrigal of Carlo Gesualdo, belta poi qui tacenti.

这是一首完全疯狂的音乐。

It's a totally crazy music.

你说的疯狂是什么意思？

How do you mean crazy?

你看，在文艺复兴晚期的音乐背景下，也就是奥兰多·迪·拉索和帕莱斯特里纳的时代，杰苏阿尔多晚期的牧歌以其半音阶、不规则性和颓废感，完全脱离了那个时代的音乐语境。

You see, putting in this context of the later Renaissance music, the time of Orlando di Lasso and of Palestrina, this late Gesualdo madrigals, which the chromaticism, the irregularity, the decadence is something absolutely out of the context of the time.

还有几位作曲家，比如莫伦齐奥、卢扎基，或者再晚一点的萨拉奇尼，也都具有同样的矫饰风格和颓废特质。

There are several composers like Morenzio or like Luzzacchi or, a little bit later, Saraccini, having the the same mannerism, the same decadence.

但我认为，杰苏阿尔多在音乐中真正走向了疯狂。

But I think Gesualdo, he went really into madness in music.

由意大利五重唱团演唱的杰苏阿尔多五声部牧歌《Belta Poice Tacenti》。

A five part magical by Giusualdo, Belta Poice Tacenti by the Quintetto Vocale Italiano.

你出生在特兰西瓦尼亚，对英国人来说，这名字听起来很浪漫。

Now you were born in Transylvania, a romantic name to to British years.

这有点像鲁里塔尼亚。

It's rather like Ruritania.

是的。

Yes.

但你知道，吸血鬼德古拉在特兰西瓦尼亚的传说其实是英语世界的产物。

But, you know, the invention of the vampires of Dracula in Transylvania is in English.

这是英国作家布拉姆·斯托克的创作。

It's a British invention of Bram Stoker.

这个故事在特兰西瓦尼亚并不为人所知。

The story is not known in Transylvania.

不过，你出生时，那里当然是匈牙利的一部分。

It was, of course, part of Hungary when you were born, though.

是的。

Yes.

它曾是匈牙利的一部分长达一千年，但我出生时是1923年，第一次世界大战之后，它已经是罗马尼亚了。

It was for a thousand years a part of Hungary, but when I was born, it was after the First World War in '23, so it was already Romania.

你是城里长大的，还是乡下长大的？

Were you a town boy or a country boy?

哦，那是个

Oh, it's a

非常小的城镇。

very small town.

那是乡下。

It's country.

而且你是大家庭中的一个孩子吗？

And one of a large family?

不是。

No.

是音乐世家吗？

A musical family?

我们家族在十九世纪有一位非常著名的音乐家。

There was a very famous musician in the nineteenth century in our family.

他是利奥波德·奥尔，一位极其伟大的小提琴家，所有伟大的俄罗斯犹太小提琴家的老师，是的。

It was Leopold Auer, the very, very great violinist, the teacher of all the great Russian Jewish violinists Yes.

比如米尔斯坦和海菲茨。

Like Milstein and Heifetz.

这是我父亲的一个叔叔，

And this was one uncle of my father,

但他却是家族中唯一的音乐家。

but he was the only musician.

你刚才说，你上学路上经常在脑子里即兴演奏贝多芬的交响曲。

Now you said that you used to improvise Beethoven like symphonies in your head on the way to school.

是的。

Yes.

当我还是个学生的时候。

When I when I was a schoolboy.

是的。

Yes.

于是我开始作曲。

So I began to compose.

那时我十四、十五岁。

So it was fourteen, fifteen years.

有时是贝多芬，有时是柴可夫斯基。

Sometimes Beethoven, sometimes Tchaikovsky.

是的。

Yes.

是的。

Yes.

没错。

It's right.

还有希腊音乐，以及我在二十世纪三十年代特兰西瓦尼亚一个小镇上所熟悉的那些音乐。

And Greek and all this music which I knew in a provincial town in Transylvania in the thirties.

事实上，你直到十几岁才开始上音乐课。

In fact, you you didn't start music lessons until you were in your teens.

是的。

Yes.

太晚了。

Very late.

我父亲不希望我学音乐，所以我14岁才开始学钢琴。

My father didn't want that I study music, so I began with piano being 14.

确实太晚了，我本想成为一名更好的钢琴家，但我钢琴弹得很差，因为如果你14岁才开始学，就不可能再掌握扎实的技术了。

It's very late, and I would like to be a better pianist, but I am a very bad pianist because if you begin with 14, you cannot more have technique.

从一开始，你的目标就是作曲吗？

Right from the start, was it your ambition to compose?

不是。

No.

不是。

No.

我原本想成为一名科学家，学习物理和数学。

I wanted to be a scientist and to study physics and mathematics.

但当我14岁开始学钢琴时，我喜欢上了音乐，并立刻开始作曲。

But when I started to learn piano, I was 14, I liked music, and immediately I began to compose.

但成为一名职业作曲家，那是很久以后的事了。

But to be a professional composer, it came much later.

你在布达佩斯音乐学院修完了音乐学业。

You graduated in music in the musical academy in in Budapest.

那是1949年，对吧？

That was, what, 1949?

1949年。

'49.

是的。

Yes.

之后，

After the

然后你留在音乐学院当老师。

And then you stayed on at the academy as a teacher.

你教什么？

What were you teaching?

作曲？

Composition?

不是。

No.

不是教作曲。

Not composition.

我教的是和声与对位法，我很高兴自己没有教作曲，因为你知道，从1948年起，匈牙利进入了共产主义的斯大林主义政权，是的。

It was harmony and counterpoint, and I was very happy that I was not a teacher for composition because, you know, from '48, it was the communist, the Stalinist regime in Hungary Yes.

而作曲被严格遵循鲁达诺夫的社会主义现实主义规则，我非常讨厌这一点。

And composition was regulated after Rudanov rules of socialist realism, and I hated this.

用你自己的话说，极权主义者不喜欢不协和音。

In your own words, totalitarians don't like dissonances.

是的。

Yes.

对。

Yes.

我不喜欢极权主义者。

And I don't like totalitarians.

是的。

Yeah.

当你担任音乐教授时，你选择了稳妥的做法，专注于民歌。

Now you played safe, as it were, when you were a professor of music by specializing in folk songs.

没人会反对这一点。

Nobody could argue with that.

不。

No.

你看，对于匈牙利的音乐界来说，巴托克和柯达伊极为重要，每个年轻作曲家都必须去乡间收集民歌，我也这么做过，但时间很短。

You see, because for the Hungarian music life, Bartok and Kodai were so important, every young composer had this it it was a must, you know, to go in in a country and to collect folk songs, and I I did it, but very shortly.

你和柯达伊合作过吗？

You you worked with Codday?

我非常了解柯达伊，但是……

I knew very well Codday, but

我从未和他合作过。

I never worked with him.

你的第二张唱片是什么？

What's your second record?

是蒙特威尔第的三声部牧歌，为三位男声而作，《Alle danse, alle Gioia》。

It's Monteverdi, a three part Madrigal for three men's voices, alle danse, alle Gioia.

你看，我是个歌剧迷，而蒙特威尔第不仅是第一位，也是最伟大的歌剧作曲家之一。

You see, I am an opera fanatic, and Monteverdi is really not only the first but one of the greatest opera composers.

但对于八张荒岛唱片，我选择了他晚期的牧歌，这些作品较少为人所知，但我认为它们同样是歌剧性的，极具戏剧性。

But for the eight Desert Island record, I choose the late Madrigals, which are less known, and I think they are also operatic music, very dramatic.

蒙特威尔第的牧歌《Alla Danci》，由罗伯特·特尔、亚历山大·奥利弗和斯塔福德·迪恩演唱。

A Monteverde Madrigal, Alla Danci, sung by Robert Tear, Alexander Oliver, and Stafford Dean.

你当时在研究民歌，但私下里却在创作更前卫的音乐。

Now you were researching folk songs, but you were composing more adventurous music quietly on your own.

是的。

Yes.

那些作品只是放在抽屉里，因为当时没有机会演出更先进的作品。

It was for the drawer because it was no performance possibility for the more advanced composition.

你知道，在共产主义时期，是这样的。

You know, in the communist time Yeah.

现代音乐是被禁止的。

Modern music was prohibited.

即使是巴托克，巴托克音乐中很大一部分，比如罗马尼亚民歌，是被允许的。

Even Bartok, a great part of Bartok's music, this kind of, like, Romanian folk songs, this was allowed.

但像《 Mandarin》或者弦乐作品这样的音乐是不被允许的。

But, really, pieces like the Mandarin or, like, the music for strings was not allowed.

你们当时有组队一起创作吗？

Was there a group of you working together?

没有。

No.

我总是独自一人。

I was always alone.

所以，即使私下里和几个朋友一起，也没有机会演出这些音乐吗？

So there was no chance of getting some of the music performed even privately with a few friends?

是的。

Yes.

是的。

Yes.

我们就在家里演奏。

We did it so at home.

我甚至在公共场合有过一些演出，但大多是民间音乐作品，而不是我真正重要的原创音乐。

And I had some some performances even in public, but more of these folklore pieces, not of my own real important music.

所以你知道，要想表达自己，就必须离开匈牙利。

So you knew that in order to express yourself, you had to leave Hungary.

你是怎么着手做到的呢？

How could you set about that?

我离开匈牙利并不是因为作为作曲家无法表达自己，而是因为我憎恨共产主义制度以及之前的纳粹体系，1956年革命后，这是第一个可以离开的机会，因为在此之前，边境是封闭的。

I left Hungary not because I couldn't express myself as a composer, because I hated both communist and before the Nazi system, and it was the first possibility to come out after the revolution in '56 because before, fronces were closed.

当然，我猜像大多数中欧人一样，你懂好几种语言。

And, of course, I suppose already, like most Central Europeans, you spoke several languages.

是的。

Yes.

但不懂英语。

But not English.

不是英语。

Not English.

你去了维也纳。

You went out to Vienna.

是的。

Yes.

去维也纳。

To Vienna.

你想见谁？

Who did you want to meet?

你的音乐偶像是谁？

Who were your musical heroes?

当时，我非常想去科隆，因为那里是电子音乐工作室。

At this moment, I was very interested to go to Cologne because it was the studio for electronic music.

那是五十年代中期，电子音乐还非常新颖重要，我想认识施托克豪森、布列兹和艾默特这样的人，艾默特是电子工作室的负责人。

It was in the mid fifties where this was something very important, very new, and I wanted to meet people like Stochausen, like Boulez, like Eimert, who was the director of the electronic studio.

巧合的是，我得到了一个机会。

And it happened that I had a chance.

艾默特邀请我去科隆。

Eimert invited me to come to Cologne.

你在电子音乐工作室工作了多久？

How long did you work in the electronic studio?

哦，大约两年半。

Oh, about two and a half years.

你觉得这有收获吗？

Did you find that rewarding?

是的。

Yes.

在那时，这对我来说非常重要。

It was very important at those times for me.

但后来，我离开了科隆，因为我不想再继续做电子音乐了。

But later, I left Cologne because I didn't want to go on with electronic music.

这段经历对我的作曲家发展历程至关重要。

It was a very important experience for all my development as a composer.

我到那里时33岁。

I was 33 years old when I came there.

两年后，我发现我的专长在于器乐和声乐作品。

And after two years, I found my domain is instrumental and vocal music.

当然，你带来了许多

Now you had brought, of course, a lot

从布达佩斯带来的作品。

of your compositions out of Budapest.

对你来说，第一部具有重要意义的首演作品是哪一部？

What was the first one to be performed that really meant a lot to you?

我的第一首弦乐四重奏，创作于1953年的布达佩斯，五年后，即1958年在维也纳上演。

My first string quartet, which I composed in '53 in Budapest, was performed five years later, in '58, in Vienna.

对你来说，这是个重要的时刻。

A big moment for you.

是的。

Yes.

算不上一个重要时刻，因为演出效果并不好。

Not a big moment because the performance was not so good.

不是。

No.

真正重要的演出是一首新作品，《巴黎奥》，这是我第一部真正的利盖蒂风格的管弦乐作品。

The really important performance was a new piece, a Parisio, my first real Ligeti style orchestra piece.

对。

Yeah.

我于1958年在科隆创作了第一部分，1959年在锡耶纳创作了第二部分，而首演则是在1960年的科隆。

I composed the first part in '58 in Cologne, the second, '59 in Siena, and the performance was in Cologne in '60.

这是我音乐作品中第一首重要且我认为非常成功的演出作品。

This was the first important and, I think, also very successful piece which was performed of my music.

第三个荒岛唱片是什么？

What's the third desert Island disc?

是莫扎特。

It's Mozart.

你知道，莫扎特的弦乐四重奏比弦乐五重奏更出名，但我认为有些弦乐五重奏是音乐中最美的作品之一。

You know, Mozart's string quartets are more known than the string quartets, but I think some of the string quintets are absolutely the most beautiful of music.

它们具有平衡与清晰的特质。

They have a balance and a clarity.

所以我选择C大调弦乐五重奏，我认为这是最高水平的典范之一。

So I choose the string quintet in C major, and I think this is one of the absolutely highest level examples.

莫扎特C大调弦乐五重奏的开头，由阿玛迪乌斯四重奏加上西塞爾·阿羅諾維奇演奏。

The opening of the Mozart string quintet in c major, the Amadeus quartet plus Cecil Aronovich.

我想是1961年，你开始担任斯德哥尔摩的客座教授。

In 1961, I think it was, that you started to be visiting professor in Stockholm.

是的。

Yes.

那也拓宽了你的视野吗？

Did that also widen your idea?

是的，非常大。

Yes, very much.

在斯德哥尔摩的那些年，有一群作曲家，比如布姆达尔、利托尔梅，还有音乐学家瓦尔纳。

In those time in Stockholm, there was a group of composers like Blumdahl, Lytholme, and musicologist, Walner.

直到六十年代中期，斯德哥尔摩的当代音乐生活都非常繁荣。

And music life for contemporary music was flourishing in Stockholm until the mid sixties.

你还在加利福尼亚的斯坦福和汉堡教过书。

You were also teaching at Stamford in California and in Hamburg.

是的。

Yes.

斯坦福是后来的事了。

Stamford was much later.

我在1972年待了半年，之后我被聘为汉堡的作曲课讲师，这个职位我至今仍保留着。

I was for a half year in '72, and after this, I had an appointment to have a composition class in Hamburg, which I still have it.

让我们来回顾一下你那些年的作品，比如《幻象》与《氛围》，还有1963年的《安魂曲》。

Let's run through some of your compositions of those days, apparitions and atmosphere, and in 1963, your requiem.

你对教堂音乐感兴趣吗？

Were you interested in church music?

你是在基督教环境中长大的吗？

Were you brought up as a Christian?

不是。

No.

我是犹太人。

I am a Jew.

这与天主教礼仪无关，但托马斯·切拉诺的《末日经》对我而言极为重要。

It has nothing to do with the Catholic liturgy, but the Dies Irae, this poem of Thomas Celano, was so important for me.

你知道，末日审判和那个日子——用英语怎么说来着？——非常可怕。

It's, you know, something very frightening is the Last Judgment and the day of how do say it in English?

末日之日？

Day of Dome?

末日审判日。

Domesday.

末日审判日。

Domesday.

末日审判日。

Domesday.

是的。

Yes.

但这首色彩斑斓的诗，描绘了天使与魔鬼，更吸引我的是这种末日幻象的视觉与听觉效果。

But this very colorful poem with angels and with devil, it's more the visual and acoustic aspect of this phantasmagory of the end of the days.

对。

Yeah.

而这正是我的吸引力所在。

And this was my attraction.

所以，在我开始多次尝试创作安魂曲之前，这个想法早已存在很久了。

So to compose a requiem was a very low low very long before I I began several times to compose a requiem.

一年或两年后，你的合唱作品《Laxi Etona》。

And a year or two later, your choral work, Laxi Etona.

是的。

Yes.

它不是作品的一部分，而是安魂曲文本的一部分。

It's a part of not a part of the composition, but a part of the requiem text.

还有一部大提琴协奏曲和几首弦乐四重奏。

And there's a cello concerto, a couple of string quartets.

请说出这一时期对你意义特别重大的一部作品。

Name a work which really means something very special to you of that period.

最著名的作品之一是《室内协奏曲》。

One of the best known pieces is the Chamber Concerto.

那是后来的作品，1969到1970年我创作的，我认为它最能代表我六十年代末的音乐风格。

It's later, 6970, I composed it, which I think is the most typical of my music in the late sixties.

你的第四张唱片，那是什么？

Your fourth record, what's that?

是舒伯特的C大调五重奏。

It's Schubert, also the quintet in C major.

如果我独自一人去一个岛上，只能带一件作品，我想我会选择舒伯特的这首弦乐五重奏，它是一种谜。

If I would go, you know, on an island alone and I had to take one piece with me, I think it would be this string quintet of Schubert, which is it is a mystery.

第二乐章的开头，我认为是最深刻、最神奇、最神秘的片段之一。

The beginning of the second movement, I think, is one of the deepest of the most magic and mysterious things.

如果你分析，可以分析和声与旋律中的变化，但其中还有一种更深层的东西，无法用语言描述。

If you analyze you can analyze what happens in harmony and in the melody, but it's something more in it which you cannot describe.

你必须去聆听这段音乐。

You have to listen to the music.

舒伯特C大调弦乐五重奏第二乐章的开头，再次是阿玛迪斯庭院，由威廉·普莱斯演奏。

The opening of the second movement of Schubert's string quintet in C major, once again the Amadeus Courtyard with William Pleith.

你的作品之所以广为人知，是因为电影导演斯坦利·库布里克选用了你的三部作品作为电影《2001：太空漫游》的配乐。

Your work was popularized when Stanley Kubrick, the the film director, seized on three of your compositions to use on the soundtrack of his film 2,001.

你对此有什么感受？

How did you feel about that?

我感到非常惊讶。

I was very astonished.

我喜欢他的电影，但他从未向我索要过音乐。

I like his films, and he never asked me for music.

很多人以为我为这部电影创作了这些音乐，这完全不是真的。

So many people think I composed this music for the film, which is absolutely not true.

甚至连授权都没有。

And even there was no authorization.

什么都没有。

Nothing.

真的吗？

Really?

我收到一封来自纽约朋友的信，他在信中说，当这部电影在欧洲上映时，去电影院看看吧，因为里面充满了你的音乐。

I had a letter from a friend in New York, and he wrote me, when this film will come to Europe, just go to the cinema and see it because it's full of your music.

后来我在维也纳。

And then I was in Vienna.

我就去了。

I went.

我喜欢这部电影。

I liked the film.

我非常生气。

I became very angry.

于是我和两家出版社请了一位律师，去处理梅特戈尼利·迈耶的问题，因为他们未经许可就使用了这段音乐。

So I and the two publishers, we took a lawyer to deal with Metogonlie Meyer because they they just took the music without having right to do so.

你觉得这段音乐在电影中的使用是恰当的吗？

Do you think it was used intelligently in the film?

是的。

Yes.

我觉得是的。

I think so.

库布里克先生有没有说他抱歉？

And did mister Kubrick say he was sorry?

没有。

No.

我从未见过他。

I never met him.

你平时如何行事？

Do you conduct yourself?

没有。

No.

没有。

No.

没有。

No.

我试过一次，但我作为作曲家比作为指挥更出色，所以我把这份工作交给别人了。

I tried once, but I I'm better composer than conductor, so I give this job for other people.

现在有些人批评现代音乐缺乏严肃的目的。

Now some of the things that are thrown against modern music is lack of serious purpose.

你曾沉迷于一两个似乎没什么严肃目的的音乐实验。

You've indulged yourself in one or two musical experiments which don't seem to have much serious purpose.

你为一百个以不同速度运行的节拍器创作了一首作品。

You you devised a piece for a 100 metronomes set at different speeds.

你当时的意图是什么？

What was your intention there?

哦，它也有一个严肃的方面。

Oh, it it it has also a serious aspect.

这是一次关于节奏的研究，通过不同的节奏层来实现。

It was a study in rhythm, to have this different rhythmical layer.

这些节拍器作为独立的乐器，各自以绝对规律的方式运行，但它们的组合却产生了一个非常复杂的节奏模式。

The metronomes as separate instruments, they go absolutely, you know, regular, but the combination gives a very complex rhythmic pattern.

但你提到了其中更幽默的一面，确实如此。

But you mentioned a more humoristic aspect, was in this.

你知道，那是一个即兴事件盛行的时代。

You know, it was a time of happenings.

我是在1962年创作了这首作品。

I made this piece in 'sixty two.

是的。

Oh, yes.

我喜欢行为艺术，但对行为艺术也带有一点讽刺意味。

And I liked happenings, but I was only a little bit ironical against happenings.

所以这是一个讽刺性地正在发生的事件。

So it was a happening which ironically it's happening.

这是一场完全自动的音乐会。

It's a totally automatic concert.

如果只有一首你的作品能够流传下来，你希望是哪一首？

If only one of your compositions were to survive, which one would you like it to be?

你看，总是我最新完成的那首作品，目前是一首为圆号、小提琴和钢琴创作的三重奏，对我来说，这标志着晚期创作时期的开端。

You see, it's always my last piece which I've finished, and the moment is a trio for horn, violin, and piano, which for me, it's quite a new, you know, the beginning of the late legative period.

对。

Yes.

你听过吗？

Have you heard it yet?

你听过它的演出吗？

Have you heard it performed?

是的。

Yes.

是的。

Yes.

它已经演出了。

It was performed.

你开心吗？

And you're happy?

是的。

Yes.

非常开心。

Quite happy.

很好。

Good.

你的第五张唱片是什么？

What's your fifth record?

是威尔第的《西蒙·波卡涅拉》。

It's Simon Bocanegra by Verdi.

我之前提到蒙特威尔第时说过，我是个歌剧狂热爱好者，是的。

I told in connection with Monteverdi that I'm an opera fanatic Yes.

所以肯定是莫扎特、威尔第，还有许多其他歌剧作曲家。

And so it's surely Mozart and Verdi and many other opera composers.

即使像《里戈莱托》或《奥赛罗》或《法尔斯塔夫》这样的作品比《西蒙·波卡涅拉》更重要，我仍然选择了这张唱片。

I choose this record even if pieces like Regoletto or Otello or Falstaff are more important than Simon Bacanegra.

但我认为由克劳迪奥·阿巴多和斯卡拉歌剧院录制的这个版本，在戏剧性、音乐性和技术性上都是我最喜爱的歌剧录音之一。

But I think this realization on recording by Claudio Abado and by Teatro a la Scala is really dramatically, musically, and technically one of my favorite operas on record.

威尔第《西蒙·波卡涅拉》最后一幕中皮耶罗·卡普奇勒和尼古拉·贾罗夫的演唱。

The voices of Piero Cappucille and Nicola Gjarov in the last act of Verdi's Simon Bocanegra.

现在我们来谈谈你的歌剧《伟大的马卡布雷》，它即将由英国国家歌剧院在伦敦首演。

Now let's talk about your opera, Le Grand Maccabre, which is getting its first London production by the English National Opera.

它是什么时候首次上演的？

And when was it first presented?

那是1978年在斯德哥尔摩。

It was in Stockholm in '78.

自那以后有多少次演出？

How many productions since?

这是第七次演出。

This is the seventh production.

你不认可巴黎的演出版本。

You didn't approve of of of the Paris production.

你为此闹得挺厉害的。

You you made a bit of a fuss about that.

你觉得他们搞砸了

You thought they did

了。

it wrong.

哦，那非常美。

Oh, it was very beautiful.

它在音乐上确实非常优美，但整部歌剧的故事——发生了什么——被完全改写了，所以它与剧本毫无关系。

It's certainly musically very beautiful, but the the whole story of the opera, what happens, was completely changed, so it had nothing to

完全无关。

do whatsoever with the libretto.

这个题材是你偶然遇到后决定要做的，还是你先决定创作一部歌剧，然后去寻找合适的题材？

Was it a subject you came across and decided you want to do, or or did you decide to compose an opera and look around for a suitable subject?

是的。

Yes.

对。

Yes.

这个想法是创作一部同时兼具悲剧与喜剧的歌剧，就像一场盛宴。

This idea of an opera which should be a tragic and comic opera at the same time, so a real buffet.

我早在六十年代就有了这个想法，而到了1973年，我偶然发现了米歇尔·德·盖尔·德·罗德的一部戏剧，它真的契合了我的构想。

I had it in my mind in the sixties, And it was in '73 that I found by chance this theater piece of Michel de Guell de Rhodes, which suited, really, my ideas.

再一次，以不同的心境，我们又回到了最后审判的主题，对吧？

Once again, in a in a different mood, we are back, in a way, with the last judgment, aren't we?

是的。

Yes.

是的。

Yes.

这和安魂曲完全一样。

It's absolutely the same as the requiem.

这一定是我内心深处非常重要的东西。

It's something which must be very deep in myself, being very important.

对死亡的恐惧，我们会死去，但它是幽默的。

Frightening of the end, we will die, but it's humoristic.

这或许是一种对抗死亡的自我保护。

It's a kind of maybe a self defense against death.

它是讽刺的、超现实的、喜剧的、悲剧的、粗俗的。

It is satirical, surreal, comic, tragic, bawdy.

你认为毫无保留的方式是传达一个想法的好方法吗？

Do you think that a no holds barred approach is a good way to put an idea across?

当我七十年代中期创作这部作品时，这个想法对我来说非常重要。

When I composed this piece in the mid seventies, it was important for me, this idea.

我深受波普艺术的影响，不是波普音乐，而是英国和美国的波普绘画。

I I was very much influenced by pop art, not by pop music, but by the painters, by English and American pop painting.

你知道，把现实生活中的各种物品放入画面或艺术作品中。

You know, putting in the picture or in the art object different objects of real life.

我将整个歌剧故事，甚至整个音乐史，都当作垃圾物品来使用。

And I use the whole story of opera, more even the whole story of music, like garbage objects.

总的来说，这是一部乐观的作品吗？

In general, is it an optimistic piece?

不是。

No.

我认为这是一部非常悲剧的作品。

I think it's a very tragic piece.

我认为，如果你第一次观看并聆听这部歌剧，它会显得非常滑稽。

And I think if you see and you listen to this opera for the first time, it will more appear as something very comical.

当你更深入了解这部作品后，你会意识到它是一部极其苦涩、悲观且悲剧性的作品。

When you know better the piece, you will realize that it's a very bitter, very pessimistic, very tragic piece.

第六张唱片。

Record number six.

这是勃拉姆斯的《亨德尔主题变奏与赋格》。

It's Brahms, variations in Fugue on the Handel theme.

我得告诉你，勃拉姆斯并不是我最喜爱的作曲家。

And I have to tell you that Brahms is not my favorite composer.

但我希望在这八张唱片中收录一张钢琴录音，达到钢琴演奏的最高水准。虽然有很多非常优秀的钢琴家，但鲁道夫·塞金我认为是史上最深邃的钢琴家之一。

But I wanted to have in these eight records really a piano recording, which is the absolutely, you know, highest level of piano playing, and there are many very, very good pianists, but Rudolf Serkin is, I think, one of the deepest pianists of all time.

我认为塞金这张全新的录音是他最深刻的作品之一，也是音乐史上最后的杰作之一，他以独特的方式诠释了勃拉姆斯这部宏大的变奏曲。

And I think that this quite new record of Serkin is one of the deepest and, you know, one of the last things, really, in music, the way how Serkin makes this large form of the Brahms' variations.

选自勃拉姆斯《亨德尔主题变奏与赋格》中的一段变奏，由鲁道夫·塞金演奏。

One of the variations from the Brahms variation and fugue on a theme by Handel, and it's played by Rudolf Serkin.

利盖特先生，英国广播公司和英国国家歌剧院已经委托您创作另一部歌剧。

Already, mister Leggett, the BBC and the English National Opera have commissioned another opera from you.

您有题材了吗？

Do you have a subject?

是的。

Yes.

很难说，因为这是最伟大的作品之一。

It's very difficult to to say because it's one of the of the highest pieces.

这是莎士比亚的《暴风雨》。

It's the Tempest by Shakespeare.

莎士比亚的作品。

By Shakespeare.

和《大麦克白》一样，采用那种自由奔放的风格吗？

And in the same form, in the same sort of free for all atmosphere as La Grand Maccabre?

不。

No.